HOF Ballot Announced: Liars, Cheaters, and Scumbags Included

[RKMeibalane]

2013 HOF Ballot Released

It would be nice for baseball to reward players (Bagwell, Biggio, Piazza) who played the game the right way by enshrining them, as their numbers are good enough. I hope Edgar Martinez makes it in eventually, as people may evaluate Frank Thomas in a similar fashion, although he spent a large portion of his career playing first base.

[DumpJerry]

[TDog]

The Bonds vote will be interesting. I don't expect Sosa to have much support, but there is the school of thought thta Bonds would have been worthy without the home runs.

I wouldn't vote for Bonds or Sosa or McGwire if I had a vote. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm of the belief that blatantly cheating to gain an advantage is egregrious enough to nullify the achievements.

It really isn't about numbers anyway. I'm guessing that there are people who will vote for Omar Vizquel in five years who won't vote for Barry Bonds this year.

Maybe players no one suspects of cheating were cheating, too. But there is a difference between voting for a someone who disgraced the game and someone whose actions would have disgraced the game if outed. I would like to think that Tim Raines was clean, of steroids anyway. Maybe Raines will get enough support for the Hall of Fame to put up another plaque featuring an Expos cap.

[Daver]

Originally Posted by TDog

The Bonds vote will be interesting. I don't expect Sosa to have much support, but there is the school of thought thta Bonds would have been worthy without the home runs.

I wouldn't vote for Bonds or Sosa or McGwire if I had a vote. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm of the belief that blatantly cheating to gain an advantage is egregrious enough to nullify the achievements.

What is your definition of cheating?

The Niekro brothers wait patiently for an answer.

[Mr. Jinx]

Originally Posted by Daver

What is your definition of cheating?

The Niekro brothers wait patiently for an answer.

As do all the players who used amphetamines for years and years.

[SI1020]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jinx

As do all the players who used amphetamines for years and years.

Amphetamine use can definitely give one a short term performance and energy boost. Over time it has the exact opposite affect. The literature is out there if you are curious. Long term amphetamine use is devastating to the mind and body. Not nearly the same thing as the designer PED's out there today. It's like comparing an abacus to a modern day super computer.

[TDog]

Originally Posted by Daver

What is your definition of cheating?

The Niekro brothers wait patiently for an answer.

There is a difference between throwing a spit ball/corking bats and performance en chancing drugs. Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame, essentially for being able to get away with thing, by his account, an account which may or not be exaggeration. Some people would consider it cheating if you took first on a pitch you knew didn't hit you when the umpire said it did. There are different levels of clean cheating as well. A Russian fencer once rigged up a device to show he was scoring touches on the electronic scoring device, but unless baseball umpiring went electronic, that's not the sort of thing you would have to worry about in baseball. Performance-en chancing drugs are on a completely different level.

There is even a difference between stimulants and anabolic steroids, Cheating really isn't the right category for anabolic steroids, although I'm not defending either. If you are competing against people taking illegal stimulants, there are measures you can take including legal stimulants, to perform at the same level. Anabolic steroids establish a sort of arms race. Staying clean while competing in that atmosphere is more difficult for many than competing in an atmosphere of illegal stimulants.

The answer to your question turns out to be vague, not unlike Potter Stewart's definition of pornography. Labeling steroid users simply as cheaters, though, ends up doing a disservice to other cheaters. Use of the word was probably ill-advised.

[Mr. Jinx]

Originally Posted by RKMeibalane

2013 HOF Ballot Released

It would be nice for baseball to reward players (Bagwell, Biggio, Piazza) who played the game the right way by enshrining them, as their numbers are good enough. I hope Edgar Martinez makes it in eventually, as people may evaluate Frank Thomas in a similar fashion, although he spent a large portion of his career playing first base.

And you know those guys were clean how? The names that became public are just the tip of the iceburg.

[RKMeibalane]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jinx

And you know those guys were clean how? The names that became public are just the tip of the iceburg.

I don't, but I also don't know that they weren't clean, and I don't advocate punishment just because they played in the same era as Sosa, McGwire, Bonds, etc.

[thomas35forever]

The first real test of the Steroid Era. Will be interesting to see how the voters respond, but I hope no one accused gets in.

[WLL1855]

"A wretched hive of scum and villainy."

[RKMeibalane]

Originally Posted by thomas35forever

The first real test of the Steroid Era. Will be interesting to see how the voters respond, but I hope no one accused gets in.

Sosa and McGwire definitely won't. Sosa's lone MVP award is tainted by PED use, and McGwire's numbers aren't anything special outside of his home run totals.

The situation revolving around Bonds and Clemens is much more interesting, as both had numbers worthy of the HOF before their alleged PED use occurred. Whether the voters take this into account is something I can't predict.

[Moses_Scurry]

I wouldn't be surprised if someone like Sosa doesn't get enough of a percentage to remain on the ballot.

[Mr. Jinx]

Originally Posted by RKMeibalane

I don't, but I also don't know that they weren't clean, and I don't advocate punishment just because they played in the same era as Sosa, McGwire, Bonds, etc.

So then are you an advocate of Clemens getting in then? After all, he has never been definitely proven to have used steroids before.

[geofitz]

Special Room. Sounds great. But would it resemble a locker room, laboratory or court room? Seriously what happens to these former players will greatly impact the future of the HOF.