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  #1  
Old 10-06-2012, 07:39 PM
#1swisher #1swisher is offline
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Default Ventura and Coaching Staff to Return in 2013

Dan Hayes
Kenny Williams said you can expect Robin Ventura's entire White Sox staff to return in 2013.
http://www.csnchicago.com/baseball-chicago-whitesox/whitesox-talk/Williams-White-Sox-coaching-staff-to-ret?blockID=784989&feedID=661
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  #2  
Old 10-06-2012, 09:10 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Expected...and hopefully Robin learned a few things along the way.

Lip
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  #3  
Old 10-06-2012, 09:38 PM
Brewski Brewski is offline
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There seemed to have been a little firestorm on this site 10 days ago about his not returning when it became likely we'd miss the playoffs, but it died down after a few days. Good news.

Bigger fish than the White Sox found their bats go silent and wound up getting some unexpected weeks off. So we weren't the only ones.
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  #4  
Old 10-06-2012, 10:07 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Brewski:

That's true but then again they probably weren't in first place for 117 days in the weakest division in the A.L. either.

Lip
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  #5  
Old 10-07-2012, 02:32 AM
Falstaff Falstaff is offline
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I think much of 2012 success compared to 2011 disappointment is thanks to the manager change. Somehow RV took the 2011 roster (minus Buerhle and John Danks!) and rode it almost to the playoffs. This was pretty unexpected and generally the Sox played over their heads (especially vs twins and indians) . Now come back next year with better players, same manager and the White Sox will kick axe. Mainly just get someone at 3rd who can hit and catch, see if you can move ADunn somehow, and hope the pitching stays healthy with return of Danks. And stop running out Sale for multiple 119 or so pitch games, no matter how tempting at the time. I expect big things from 2013 White Sox and if so may have to move back to the south side (55th Honore native) and start enjoying the club in person.
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  #6  
Old 10-07-2012, 04:49 AM
Konerko05 Konerko05 is offline
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I am happy about this.

I think the players really enjoy playing for Ventura.
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  #7  
Old 10-07-2012, 10:01 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Expected...and hopefully Robin learned a few things along the way.

Lip
Hope so.
He got strategically out-maneuvered several times during the season and, imo, seriously over-pitched Sale and kept Dunn intractable as the number 3 hitter, a place ill-suited for him (also, imo).
But, as said above, the players seem to like him.
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  #8  
Old 10-07-2012, 10:59 AM
BainesHOF BainesHOF is offline
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Not being Ozzie is not good enough. Venutura managed one of the biggest collapses in franchise history. Many other managers have been fired for similar choke jobs down the stretch.
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  #9  
Old 10-07-2012, 11:25 AM
skobabe8 skobabe8 is offline
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Originally Posted by BainesHOF View Post
Not being Ozzie is not good enough. Venutura managed one of the biggest collapses in franchise history. Many other managers have been fired for similar choke jobs down the stretch.
I'm not going to put forth the effort of looking it up, but if that was one of the biggest chokes in franchise history, the franchise hasn't had too many big chokes.
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  #10  
Old 10-07-2012, 11:47 AM
Konerko05 Konerko05 is offline
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I'm not going to put forth the effort of looking it up, but if that was one of the biggest chokes in franchise history, the franchise hasn't had too many big chokes.
Yes, seriously. It wasn't like we had talent from top to bottom and we were expected to plow through the playoffs.

The White Sox were a border line team who did an amazing job of staying on top for the majority of the year.

I look at it more as sputtering out than choking. They just didn't have enough at the end. It hurts that they lost it so close, but it's a very long season.

Ventura obviously made some questionable moves, and a few of his moves might have even cost us a game or two, but every team/manager has these. For the last couple weeks, Ventura and the players on this team were throwing everything they had out there to try to pull it out and I appreciate that. It looked like the team was taped together, and trying to limp across the finish the line. Unfortunately, Detroit had more in their tank and passed us up.

This team had one starter who consistently won games. Sale (who was noticeably fatigued at the end of year) was basically the difference between a .500 team and a playoff contender. When that is the reality, I have a hard time using the word "choke" to describe what happened.
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  #11  
Old 10-10-2012, 08:38 PM
mahagga73 mahagga73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skobabe8 View Post
I'm not going to put forth the effort of looking it up, but if that was one of the biggest chokes in franchise history, the franchise hasn't had too many big chokes.
No offense ,but did you watch the end of the season ? That was the very definition of a choke job. Couldn't buy a hit with runners in scoring position, got owned by the Royals. It HAS to be one of the bigger chokes in Sox history, and that is saying something, because just in the past 15 years there have been several.
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  #12  
Old 10-07-2012, 11:26 AM
Soxman219 Soxman219 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BainesHOF View Post
Not being Ozzie is not good enough. Venutura managed one of the biggest collapses in franchise history. Many other managers have been fired for similar choke jobs down the stretch.
It was his first year though. If he does it again, then you might fire him.
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  #13  
Old 10-07-2012, 11:58 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by BainesHOF View Post
Not being Ozzie is not good enough. Venutura managed one of the biggest collapses in franchise history. Many other managers have been fired for similar choke jobs down the stretch.
I'm certainly not advocating 'firing' Robin by any means but to the points raised about Sox collapses and firings, I can think of two right off the top of my head:

1967 = Stanky... fired in May of 1968.
2003 = Manuel... fired in the off season.

Lip
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  #14  
Old 10-07-2012, 01:41 PM
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Daver Daver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
I'm certainly not advocating 'firing' Robin by any means but to the points raised about Sox collapses and firings, I can think of two right off the top of my head:

1967 = Stanky... fired in May of 1968.
2003 = Manuel... fired in the off season.

Lip

Manuel was probably gone no matter what the performance was, he plain ran out of scapegoats after throwing Von Joshua under the bus while defending Nardi Contreas, and then throwing him under the bus six months later.
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  #15  
Old 10-08-2012, 03:28 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
I'm certainly not advocating 'firing' Robin by any means but to the points raised about Sox collapses and firings, I can think of two right off the top of my head:

1967 = Stanky... fired in May of 1968.
2003 = Manuel... fired in the off season.

Lip
To build on Daver's point, Eddie Stanky's firing came in June of 1968, 79 games into the season with the White Sox 18.5 games out of first, ninth in the 10-team American League in the last year before divisional play. Stanky wasn't fired after the collapse of 1967, which involved losing the last five games. He wasn't fired in April after the Sox lost their first 10 games of 1968. It has been said that Stanky didn't relate well to black players. I don't know that that is documented. That may be an assumption people have made based on Stanky being one of the Dodgers who started a petition to keep Jackie Robinson off of the team.

The Sox never had a big lead in either 1967 or 2012. They never pulled away. The most notable collapses in baseball were the 1951 Dodgers (up 13 on August 11), 1969 Cubs (up 9 on August 16), 1964 Phillies (up 6.5 with 12 to play) and the 2012 Rangers (up 5 with 9 to play) did not fire their managers in the offseason.

Charlie Dressen went on to win pennants with the Dodgers in 1952 and 1953 after Leo Durocher's Giants beat him out in 1951. Durocher was midway through his 1972 season with before the his Cubs tenure reached critical mass (as with Guillen ifor the 2011 White Sox). Gene Mauch wasn't fired by the Phillies until 1968. And I don't see the Rangers firing Ron Washington anytime soon.

It's true that Washington went to the World Series for two straight years, and lost to teams the public underestimated. But Durocher and Mauch were managing long suffering teams that seemed to miss their window. Dressen was a rookie manager for a team that had never won a World Series.

There is no reason to blame Ventura for this year's White Sox collapse, blowing that three game lead with 15 to go.

And, really, I didn't see Ventura being outmaneauvered by other managers. There was a criticism from the start that he went too long with his starting pitchers, but I always believed that was to save the rookiie-heavy bullpen. I think he was good at getting the matchups he wanted. In the end, the players didn't execute. The wasted opportunities over the last two weeks was the result of players not executing. The problem wasn't with players bunting the go-ahead run to third where he could score on a fly ball, the problem was hitters striking out with the runner on third and not scoring him.

I don't think there is any problem with the manager and coaching staff, although the third-base coach did seem to be at the center of a lot of failures in September. I don't think there was anything Ventura could do differently with the pitching staff to keep pitching from running out of gas in late September. For example, the problem wasn't that Adam Dunn was hitting third, it was that he was in the lineup at all. If you have an offense that hits a lot of home runs, that strikes out a lot and doesn't hit for a high batting average, as opposed to an offense that makes solid, consistent line-drive contact, your offense is vulnerable to being shut down. Hitting isn't about OPS, its about hitting.
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