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View Poll Results: What's the real truth?
If you build it, we will come... (fans) 26 26.53%
If you come, we will build it... (management) 2 2.04%
We have a very small fanbase who will come, and a large bandwagon that is unpredictably inconsistent 52 53.06%
If we bake them, you will eat Churros 18 18.37%
Voters: 98. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 10-01-2012, 01:56 PM
jabrch jabrch is offline
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Default If _____ then _____

Despite rhetoric from both management and fans, what's the real truth?
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  #2  
Old 10-01-2012, 02:30 PM
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I put in the Churros option that you forgot.
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  #3  
Old 10-01-2012, 03:42 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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There is no other business in the world that operates under the model of "we will put out a good product once you start to support us." If that is still the White Sox operating principle they are screwed.
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Old 10-01-2012, 04:01 PM
TheOldRoman TheOldRoman is offline
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I voted the third option, though I don't know if the large portion of the fanbase is unpredictable as they are fickle. Obviously fans will come out to see a team which just won a World Series, but that isn't the measure of a stable franchise. The Sox have largely failed on the field since 2005, but their attendance has dropped every season since 2006. They won the division in 2008 and drew over 2,000 less per game in 2009. They had a good team which competed in 2010, made a big splash in free agency and increased payroll by $25 million, and still drew 2,000 fewer per game in 2011. Sure, a large portion of that had to due with the team playing so poorly, but even with that, 1) season ticket sales didn't jump before the season, and 2) they weren't out of striking distance until early September. This year the team was in first place for most of the season, but to a large portion of the fanbase, winning baseball was not enough. They needed to be assured of a playoff spot before they bought in.

I think the 2010-11 offseason does a lot to disspell the "we won't spend until you come out" idea. The Sox spent that offseason because the team was good the year before, and they felt they were fixing the huge hole which almost singlehandedly kept them out of the playoffs the year before. There was no attendance bump before or after that, but they spent the money because they felt they had a chance to win a championship (and yes, make more money). People need to realize that ownership does not behave in the same way it did in 1999. They have spent lots of money over the past 8 years. It could be argued that they didn't spend it wisely, should have spent more in scouting, should have improved marketing, etc. but that is a different argument. They have spent money.
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  #5  
Old 10-01-2012, 05:01 PM
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The fans will support a winner, but if they don't build a team that looks like a potential pennant contender prior to the season, they won't sell enough season tickets to be able to afford more. You can't pay the rent based on walk-up sales or even on mid-summer advance sales.
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  #6  
Old 10-03-2012, 12:14 PM
jabrch jabrch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
The fans will support a winner, but if they don't build a team that looks like a potential pennant contender prior to the season, they won't sell enough season tickets to be able to afford more. You can't pay the rent based on walk-up sales or even on mid-summer advance sales.

Jim - I like you - you know that... But I'm calling bull****. They didn't support this winner.

If the answer is, "they will come only if the pre-commit before the season starts and won't buy into anything else" then so be it...but this team was a contender all season. It had the components needed to win in the post season. Fans still didn't come. Had they come when this team was in first most of the summer, maybe management would have had money to make a bigger move at the deadline...or banked it to make a bigger move next year. As it is, the overwhelming majority of our fans showed that they are going to come if they want to...and that building a winning team won't impact that significantly.

We have a very small, very rabid fanbase who will come no matter what. The rest, as someone else said, is fickle, unpredictable, and inconsistent. They want to have a payroll like the Yankees, but they won't pay the ticket prices for it. They want to have a farm system like the Rays, but won't put up with the crappy seasons it takes to build it. They won't come to attend baseball games for the pure joy of attending games....and that's fine...that's their perrogative. Yes, it is expensive. Yes, it takes time to get there from the N or W. Yes, it is a committment... But it is a committment that great teams' fans make. Ownership spent the money. Ownership put a good team on the field. (it happened to suck last year, but they made good aggressive moves that didn't pan out until a year later than plan) And the majority of the fans stayed away... I'm not talking about the rabid few....mostly the types we have here...I'm talking about the difference between 1.5mm and 3mm....that extra 1.5mm...what would enable this franchise to be able to spend 130MM+ consistently...those customers have spoken this season.

They have said, we will come if we want to. And we won't commit to coming even if you build a winner....even if you make the ballpark a family friendly place to come....even if you make affordable ticket options....even if you have decent public transportion, good parking options and even neighborhood activities...we, the 1.5mm variable customers, may come...or we may not... So, if I am running a business, and I have variable benefits and variable costs assoicated with them, I'm VERY careful to avoid fixing those costs at a level that can't be sustained given the fickle nature of those variable customers. Maybe I am willing to be a contender every now and then...because it seems like I can count on a set group of customers if I offer that value proposition. Offering a bigger spend did not get me any more revenues....and there is no way I can guarantee them a winner every year that it would take to convert some of these "customers" into "rabid fans".
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  #7  
Old 10-02-2012, 08:54 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
There is no other business in the world that operates under the model of "we will put out a good product once you start to support us." If that is still the White Sox operating principle they are screwed.
Also, no other business model blames the customers for not buying/supporting their products.

It's not poor price structures or several years of lousy, disappointing product or a previous offseason of lowering expectations. No, no, no.....it's because the lifelong customer sucks, is not loyal enough and is just looking for an excuse to not make a purchase!!!

Any questions Sox ownership/management have as to why they're not drawing enough fans should start and stop at the mirror.
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:01 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Doogie:

We're obviously talking past each other. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE THOSE TEAMS THAT I MENTIONED MADE THE PLAYOFFS IN A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME?

Thank you.

Doesn't matter if you win the division or get in as a wild card THEY ARE STILL CONSISTENTLY GETTING IN. Years at a time in some cases.
MORE TIMES IN A ROW THAN SOX FANS CAN ONLY DREAM OF.
AND SOME OF THESE WILD CARD TEAMS ARE ACTUALLY GOING ON TO WIN THE WORLD SERIES!

I trust I made myself clear?



THAT's how you build fan interest, that's how you sell a ton of season tickets and single game tickets in the off season.

But feel free to keep finding ways to "blame" the fan base.

Again sorry you and I simply do not agree on this issue, not even close.

Oh and Doogie, you fail to understand those three losing seasons this century...HAVE ALL COME IN THE LAST SIX YEARS. This organization can't even put back to back winning seasons together anymore. And mentioning teams like Toronto, San Diego, Colorado, Pittsburgh et al, last I looked those clubs aren't in a market with two teams. You want to see baseball that badly? No matter how crappy the Jays are or the Pirates or the Royals, you see them or do without. Not exactly the same situation in Chicago is it, especially for the casual fan.

Not trying to come down harshly on you, your rational is very frustrating to me right now.

Lip

Last edited by Lip Man 1; 10-02-2012 at 10:38 PM.
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  #9  
Old 10-03-2012, 12:37 PM
doogiec doogiec is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Doogie:

We're obviously talking past each other. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE THOSE TEAMS THAT I MENTIONED MADE THE PLAYOFFS IN A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME?

Thank you.

Doesn't matter if you win the division or get in as a wild card THEY ARE STILL CONSISTENTLY GETTING IN. Years at a time in some cases.
MORE TIMES IN A ROW THAN SOX FANS CAN ONLY DREAM OF.
AND SOME OF THESE WILD CARD TEAMS ARE ACTUALLY GOING ON TO WIN THE WORLD SERIES!

I trust I made myself clear?


Lip


My exact statement was "Looking at the standings the last few years, itís hard to find a team not named the Yankees or Rangers who has maintained the level of excellence year in and year out that you seem to require for the Sox to at least justify mediocre attendance." Note the "last few years" part. Its an important part of my sentence. I included it for a reason.

You replied by talking about teams that made multiple playoff appearances as some point in time in history. Some of those teams have made a single appearance in the "last few years". None of those teams (except PHI, which I previously admitted I should have classified with NYY and TEX) have been on a run of back to back playoff appearances (WC or DIV) in the last few years. That's why I didn't include them in my "short list". They didn't qualify.

Teams rarely go to the playoffs three, four or five years in a row. There's too much parity, player movement, and all around money being thrown around to make that a reality. Would I like that to happen? Hell yes. Do I believe the Sox deserve to flounder in the bottom third of attendance if they don't. Of course not. A marketing plan that requires three or four consecutive playoff seasons to see an increase in ticket sales is insanity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
But feel free to keep finding ways to "blame" the fan base.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doogiec View Post
And for the record, I blame this COMPLETELY on Sox marketing.
I don't know how I could have stated this any clearer as to who I blame for this issue. But if you prefer to just put words in my mouth....


So I am going to state my beliefs in a few short paragraphs, and then go away for many months as is my habit:

Sox attendance should somewhat correlate with performance on the field. It historically has not. I'm not talking about the stupidity that exists on the north side. I'm talking about a middle of the pack team drawing middle of the pack numbers. I'm talking about a World Series team drawing in the top five of the league. And I'm OK with a 95-100 game loser finishing at or near the bottom. That shouldn't be hard in a huge market such as Chicago, even if it is essentially cut in half.

The failure to do this is a failure of Sox marketing. When you look at attendance numbers around the league, it is clear that just about every other team can figure out a way to sell tickets even if they aren't going to the playoffs. The Sox can't, and even struggle to do so at a normal level when they are going to the playoffs

Last edited by doogiec; 10-03-2012 at 12:40 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #10  
Old 10-01-2012, 05:01 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
I put in the Churros option that you forgot.
Churros are fried, not baked.
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  #11  
Old 10-01-2012, 05:13 PM
October26 October26 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
Churros are fried, not baked.
Correct. And chocolate-filled churros are the best!
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:38 PM
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There's no future with this organization. The other side of town made clear their plans, and while I would never spend a lot of money to go see a game if I was a fan, at least there's hope in the future for them. I can respect that and I would be willing to go see a couple games a year because they seem to be moving in the right direction. They appear to be making the right moves. But I'm not a Cubs fan. What are the Sox doing to instill any type of hope in this fanbase? What do we as fans have to look forward to next year and beyond? There's really nothing. The farm system is one of the worst in all of baseball. The current roster is full of veterans who are old and slow and a bunch won't be here next year. Management tells the fanbase through the press that they can't do things if fans don't come to the games, but charge the 4th highest avg ticket price to watch this team in person. The entire organization is a joke right now. There is no direction. There is no hope. IMO, those 2 factors are the main reasons fans are staying away.
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kobo View Post
There's no future with this organization. The other side of town made clear their plans, and while I would never spend a lot of money to go see a game if I was a fan, at least there's hope in the future for them. I can respect that and I would be willing to go see a couple games a year because they seem to be moving in the right direction. They appear to be making the right moves. But I'm not a Cubs fan. What are the Sox doing to instill any type of hope in this fanbase? What do we as fans have to look forward to next year and beyond? There's really nothing. The farm system is one of the worst in all of baseball. The current roster is full of veterans who are old and slow and a bunch won't be here next year. Management tells the fanbase through the press that they can't do things if fans don't come to the games, but charge the 4th highest avg ticket price to watch this team in person. The entire organization is a joke right now. There is no direction. There is no hope. IMO, those 2 factors are the main reasons fans are staying away.
The reason this year's attendance never took off is because they didn't seell enough season tickets because no one expected this team to be as competitive as it was. By the time it was clear they were in the hunt school had started up again. Then the team hit the wall.
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Old 10-01-2012, 07:35 PM
The Immigrant The Immigrant is offline
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There's no future with this organization. The other side of town made clear their plans, and while I would never spend a lot of money to go see a game if I was a fan, at least there's hope in the future for them. I can respect that and I would be willing to go see a couple games a year because they seem to be moving in the right direction. They appear to be making the right moves. But I'm not a Cubs fan. What are the Sox doing to instill any type of hope in this fanbase? What do we as fans have to look forward to next year and beyond? There's really nothing. The farm system is one of the worst in all of baseball. The current roster is full of veterans who are old and slow and a bunch won't be here next year. Management tells the fanbase through the press that they can't do things if fans don't come to the games, but charge the 4th highest avg ticket price to watch this team in person. The entire organization is a joke right now. There is no direction. There is no hope. IMO, those 2 factors are the main reasons fans are staying away.
That was depressing to read but I don't really disagree with any of it.
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Old 10-02-2012, 07:43 AM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kobo View Post
There's no future with this organization. The other side of town made clear their plans, and while I would never spend a lot of money to go see a game if I was a fan, at least there's hope in the future for them. I can respect that and I would be willing to go see a couple games a year because they seem to be moving in the right direction. They appear to be making the right moves. But I'm not a Cubs fan. What are the Sox doing to instill any type of hope in this fanbase? What do we as fans have to look forward to next year and beyond? There's really nothing. The farm system is one of the worst in all of baseball. The current roster is full of veterans who are old and slow and a bunch won't be here next year. Management tells the fanbase through the press that they can't do things if fans don't come to the games, but charge the 4th highest avg ticket price to watch this team in person. The entire organization is a joke right now. There is no direction. There is no hope. IMO, those 2 factors are the main reasons fans are staying away.
How many teams won the World Series doing what they Cubs say they are doing? Keep in mind they keep moving the goalposts further and further back. First it was three years, then five. Now they are saying seven. The truth is, they are rolling the dice with this plan.

The Cubs' plan will work if the other 29 teams stop trying to improve themselves. Theo has been stocking up on position players with all his deals, without pitching, the Cubs will get nowhere.
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