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  #1  
Old 10-01-2012, 11:08 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Default To What Degree Do the White Sox Need a COMPLETE Overhaul?

In looking at the status of this team and overall organization as we close out a disappointing 2012- to what degree do you think it's time for a significant overhaul across the board (not just on the playing field)?
  1. Major league roster- expensive free agent contracts looming for Peavy, Youkilis and AJ (without any real help in the farm system to replace them)- and saddled with Adam Dunn for another 2 years.
  2. Farm System- some good talent that helped the 2012 team (young pitching especially)- but I don't see alot of guys that could potentially help in 2013 where we need the help.
  3. Marketing- After a strong start- I think Brooks Boyer is running out of gas- if you can't draw 2 million when you spend most of the season you're in 1st place and the cross town team is losing 100 games- I think marketing is accountable. "Dynamic pricing", worn out promotions like Mullett Night, etc., mediocre TV and newspaper advertising, etc.- they seem to really have lost their way in this area.
  4. TV & Radio Announcers- IMHO Farmer & DJ are unlistenable- I only listen when I need a score- but I used to like having the radio on in the background while doing other things during the season- but not with these 2- I think both should be dumped. On the TV side- I'm more of a Hawk fan than most- but he showed a noticable decline this season, and the chemistry just isn't there with Stone.
I think this team needs some bold, offseason changes to get back on track- but there's no real evidence that JR has the inclination or the ability to execute aggressive changes quickly.
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  #2  
Old 10-01-2012, 11:25 AM
ChiSoxFann ChiSoxFann is offline
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Barring another 'All-in' offseason spending spree, which I don't see happening, then yes I think this team needs an overhaul.

I would let AJ, Peavy, Youkilis, Liriano, etc. walk and try to move some pieces. I like some of the young pitchers we have, but where are our young, impact position players? Where is this team's Ryan Braun, Mike Trout, Andrew McCutchen type player(s) who can be the face of the franchise? Our hitters aren't getting any younger and I doubt Konerko, Rios, Dunn are around next time this team realistically can compete for a title.

I agree marketing needs an improvement too. I said in another thread Brooks and his ideas have gone stale or are not working. New blood is badly needed here.
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:30 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Tom:

It's hard to answer that question right now because we (as fans) have no idea what the off season plan is.

I think it likely the Sox are going to lose most if not all of their free agents and start to re-tool under Hahn, HOWEVER JR has been known to throw a curve and do what is not expected...it could happen again (although I think the chances are small.)

He might begin to invest in the minor league system now because of the changes to it but that still doesn't solve the issue of dealing with some high powered agents and if that is the case and the Sox don't draft particular players because of their representatives, does that start to solve that issue?

Regarding marketing and advertising, logically I'd have to think that Brooks and his people have to do something....you just can't let things go the way they are right now.

To what degree changes could be made is something we'll have to wait and see on, but I've got to think some changes at least will be made.

To not do anything, keep the status quo, would not make business sense.

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Old 10-01-2012, 11:42 AM
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I don't think you will see a complete overhaul of the major league roster next season or anytime in the forseeable future -- unless the Sox were willing to dramatically reduce ticket prices. I've read on this board thousands of times that "Sox fans will not support mediocrity." I read it again today. Realistically, this year is proof that Sox fans may not even support a team that spent much of the summer in first place -- or at least will come up with dozens of reasons to not show up to the ballpark (and a few of those reasons are IMO legitimate).

The Cubs can go through a major ovehaul and still draw close to 3 million fans a year. If you blow up the Sox roster and offer the fan base absolutely no hope of contending, the Sox will draw less than 1,500,000 for the season -- unless the Sox were willing to slash ticket prices. I just don't see it happening.
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:59 AM
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I think there will at least be some kind of mini overhaul based on salaries. A.J., Peavy, Youkilis, Myers, Liriano, and possibly Floyd all likely to be gone.
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:11 PM
amsteel amsteel is offline
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We all saw this year that unless 4 or 5 guys have career years this team is good for 80-85 wins. The Tigers are gonna keep throwing $ around until they win a WS so I have a feeling a division title is a ways away.

An overhaul is needed, but god damn, is it gonna suck.
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:27 PM
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Complete overhaul? No, but I think some significant change is needed. You can't just tinker around the margins and expect different results.

I think the Sox are set at four positions next year: 1B, 2B, SS and RF.

I know people are not going to be happy with me including 2B in that list, but from where I'm sitting, the up-the-middle defense of Beckham and Ramirez is the strength of this team. That's not something you break apart. That's something you build around. I know neither of them is great offensively, but the two have combined for 25 HRs, 132 RBIs and roughly 120 runs scored. That production is fine batting eighth and ninth when coupled with top-flight defense at critical positions.

Konerko is going to be 37 years old on Opening Day next year. He's got one year left on his contract. He's more valuable to the White Sox than he would be in any trade. You bring him back to play out his deal. Rios had a terrific year and has earned the RF job for next season. As his teammates have crumbled around him, he has continued to play good baseball down the stretch.

You face free-agency decisions on Youkilis and Pierzynski. At least one will leave, if not both. De Aza, if he's healthy, I think can be part of the solution. The main problem with Alejandro is his body broke down in the second half. Can we trust him to hold up for a whole season? Not sure, but I do like what he brings.

Offensively, as a whole, you've got a low OBP team. You've got a slow team. They hit a lot of home runs, but they lack balance and struggle to score in other ways. Ultimately, you have to ask yourself what players can be traded to bring yourself back into balance? I think Dunn and Viciedo are the players you shop. They both have value, and they could bring value in return. I think the Sox need to sacrifice some power to get more speed and OBP in the lineup.

You also have a problem with depth. You've got six of your starting nine over 30, and maybe it just wasn't realistic to ask a group of 32- to 36-year-olds to play 140 games and get you over the finish line. These older players broke down at the end of the season. They had to ride these guys hard because they didn't have capable backups.

If you can move Dunn's contract for a couple useful pieces, you free up some money and you can go shopping. You've also got money coming off the books with Peavy. If Jake walks, and I assume he will, you do need to find another starting pitcher somewhere. But sometimes, you can replace a $15 million a year player with three guys whose salary adds up to the same total, and your team will be better for it.

It's going to be an interesting offseason. There's a lot of different ways you can look at the problems the Sox are having, not only on the field but with attendance and marketing as well.
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:13 PM
Noneck Noneck is online now
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1. Not really a means to completely overhaul now. Konerko, Dunn, Danks, Rios will at least comprise half of the payroll. So it will be fill in the blanks time again and there will be many blanks to fill, mainly the pitching staff, probably from within and that is very far from a sure thing but a very economical one.

2. I sure hope they start rebuilding and throw money in all aspects of the minor league system. But that produces revenue in the distant future and this organization has the live for the day mentality, so I doubt it will happen.

3. Attendance has dropped every year since 2006 and the clubs value keeps increasing, so whatever they are doing seems to be working.

4. TV and radio ratings keep increasing, so I assume there is no need for a change there.

Basically it comes down to, what you see is what you will keep getting, as long as the bottom line stays healthy.
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:38 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
In looking at the status of this team and overall organization as we close out a disappointing 2012- to what degree do you think it's time for a significant overhaul across the board (not just on the playing field)?
  1. Major league roster- expensive free agent contracts looming for Peavy, Youkilis and AJ (without any real help in the farm system to replace them)- and saddled with Adam Dunn for another 2 years.
  2. Farm System- some good talent that helped the 2012 team (young pitching especially)- but I don't see alot of guys that could potentially help in 2013 where we need the help.
  3. Marketing- After a strong start- I think Brooks Boyer is running out of gas- if you can't draw 2 million when you spend most of the season you're in 1st place and the cross town team is losing 100 games- I think marketing is accountable. "Dynamic pricing", worn out promotions like Mullett Night, etc., mediocre TV and newspaper advertising, etc.- they seem to really have lost their way in this area.
  4. TV & Radio Announcers- IMHO Farmer & DJ are unlistenable- I only listen when I need a score- but I used to like having the radio on in the background while doing other things during the season- but not with these 2- I think both should be dumped. On the TV side- I'm more of a Hawk fan than most- but he showed a noticable decline this season, and the chemistry just isn't there with Stone.
I think this team needs some bold, offseason changes to get back on track- but there's no real evidence that JR has the inclination or the ability to execute aggressive changes quickly.
Very solid analysis of the situation.
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:13 PM
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tebman tebman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
In looking at the status of this team and overall organization as we close out a disappointing 2012- to what degree do you think it's time for a significant overhaul across the board (not just on the playing field)?
  1. Major league roster- expensive free agent contracts looming for Peavy, Youkilis and AJ (without any real help in the farm system to replace them)- and saddled with Adam Dunn for another 2 years.
  2. Farm System- some good talent that helped the 2012 team (young pitching especially)- but I don't see alot of guys that could potentially help in 2013 where we need the help.
  3. Marketing- After a strong start- I think Brooks Boyer is running out of gas- if you can't draw 2 million when you spend most of the season you're in 1st place and the cross town team is losing 100 games- I think marketing is accountable. "Dynamic pricing", worn out promotions like Mullett Night, etc., mediocre TV and newspaper advertising, etc.- they seem to really have lost their way in this area.
  4. TV & Radio Announcers- IMHO Farmer & DJ are unlistenable- I only listen when I need a score- but I used to like having the radio on in the background while doing other things during the season- but not with these 2- I think both should be dumped. On the TV side- I'm more of a Hawk fan than most- but he showed a noticable decline this season, and the chemistry just isn't there with Stone.
I think this team needs some bold, offseason changes to get back on track- but there's no real evidence that JR has the inclination or the ability to execute aggressive changes quickly.
No doubt about it (to quote Frank Thomas). The Sox need bold moves to get out of their malaise. The baseball team obviously has to be the first priority and maybe the movement of Rick Hahn into the GM chair will make a difference; at least we can hope so. I think letting A.J. walk would be a mistake, but I'd say let the other free agents go. Maybe the Yankees would be interested in Dunn. Maybe Boston would be interested in Floyd. Neither team is averse to big contracts. I'm thinking out loud here.

The Sox don't have a buzz that gets people excited. Those of us who are deep-rooted fans will always be around but the Sox also have to compete for attention from casual fans and the generally curious.

Dan McGrath wrote a piece in the Sun-Times a couple of weeks ago suggesting that the Sox hire John McDonough away from the Blackhawks. His argument is that McDonough is very good at what he does (Cubs, Hawks) and he's a legitimate Sox fan to boot. I don't know if he's the answer or not, but it's that kind of thinking the Sox need.

Despite their comically bad record the Cubs successfully occupied a position that puts them, or more specifically their ballpark, in the center of a young-adult Neverland of good times and recreational comfort. They don't deserve it, of course, but life ain't fair. The Sox need to create their own buzz and it has to be a combination of good baseball and an unapologetic identity. It'll take time but I really think it can be done.
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:29 PM
DeadMoney DeadMoney is offline
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Originally Posted by tebman View Post
No doubt about it (to quote Frank Thomas). The Sox need bold moves to get out of their malaise. The baseball team obviously has to be the first priority and maybe the movement of Rick Hahn into the GM chair will make a difference; at least we can hope so. I think letting A.J. walk would be a mistake, but I'd say let the other free agents go. Maybe the Yankees would be interested in Dunn. Maybe Boston would be interested in Floyd. Neither team is averse to big contracts. I'm thinking out loud here.

The Sox don't have a buzz that gets people excited. Those of us who are deep-rooted fans will always be around but the Sox also have to compete for attention from casual fans and the generally curious.

Dan McGrath wrote a piece in the Sun-Times a couple of weeks ago suggesting that the Sox hire John McDonough away from the Blackhawks. His argument is that McDonough is very good at what he does (Cubs, Hawks) and he's a legitimate Sox fan to boot. I don't know if he's the answer or not, but it's that kind of thinking the Sox need.

Despite their comically bad record the Cubs successfully occupied a position that puts them, or more specifically their ballpark, in the center of a young-adult Neverland of good times and recreational comfort. They don't deserve it, of course, but life ain't fair. The Sox need to create their own buzz and it has to be a combination of good baseball and an unapologetic identity. It'll take time but I really think it can be done.
I completely agree with this. Create a fresh identity for the entire franchise that isn't one of the media, GM, players and other team's players bashing the fans for not showing up.
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:34 PM
Noneck Noneck is online now
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I have already read from a couple posters that they think Dunn has potential return in a trade. I dont think so and remember, everything that we see in Dunn, major league GMs see also. A salary dump maybe but getting pieces, I doubt that.
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:45 PM
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I have already read from a couple posters that they think Dunn has potential return in a trade. I dont think so and remember, everything that we see in Dunn, major league GMs see also. A salary dump maybe but getting pieces, I doubt that.
Well, you're not going to get an everyday middle-of-the-order hitter in return, that's for sure. I think you might be able to get a relief pitcher and a fifth infielder or something like that for Dunn. Not splash acquisitions, but useful parts that this team needs. Then, you get the salary relief and look to fill other holes.
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:54 PM
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I have already read from a couple posters that they think Dunn has potential return in a trade. I dont think so and remember, everything that we see in Dunn, major league GMs see also. A salary dump maybe but getting pieces, I doubt that.
Ha ha, if AJ and Youk depart via free agency, as expected, trading away Dunn would remove the Sox's 3rd, 4th, and 5th most productive hitters from this season. I can't wait to see everyone's reaction to that.
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Old 10-01-2012, 01:29 PM
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Ha ha, if AJ and Youk depart via free agency, as expected, trading away Dunn would remove the Sox's 3rd, 4th, and 5th most productive hitters from this season. I can't wait to see everyone's reaction to that.
Well, it depends on how those players are replaced. I remember I had an absolute meltdown when Carlos Lee was traded after the 2004 season. I thought, "No way they can replace the production of both Lee AND Ordonez."

I don't know that they replaced the production, per se, but they changed the mix and they won with it. Right now, I'm thinking they need to change the mix. That's an easy thing for me to post on a message board and a hard thing for a GM to do, of course. Geez, Youk is likely gonna walk, and what do you do at 3B? We have nothing in the organization, and the best available 3B in free agency is, well, none other than Youk. Tough situation there.

I think you have to explore trading Dunn, because if his 40 HRs has value to the Sox, then maybe it will have value to somebody else too. And maybe you change the makeup of the team and can get the salary relief you need to fix the holes in the roster. But maybe NoNeck is right and Dunn has no value to other GMs. I'm not sure.

We're all talking out our asses here, and it will be interesting to see what the Sox actually do.
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