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Old 10-02-2012, 02:19 PM
shingo10 shingo10 is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,242

Originally Posted by KingXerxes View Post
I don't want to pick fly crap out of a pile of pepper, but would like to weigh in on this conversation.

Allow me to sum it up this way:
1. Harrelson contended money is the key to success in baseball.
2. Stone countered about Tampa Bay doing it without money.
3. Harrelson then explained this away by giving credit to Madden.
4. Stone said much of the credit belonged to their player development.
5. Harrelson contended the reason they got the players in the first place was due to all the high draft picks Tampa received for finishing last all the time (which - by implication - costs money).

OK - It would appear to me that Harrelson's initial point of money being the sole factor keeps changing as he's challenged. If the manager is to be credited (as he says in #3) then it isn't "all about money". His own response to Stone undermines his initial assertion. Then he further switches away from the "all about money" statement to contend that high draft choices come at a cost - and that cost is finishing last (I'm guessing here this was Harrelson's point).

Stone stayed on point by twice pointing out that "it isn't all about money", but Harrelson wavers off that point considerably, even intrducing elements into his argument which contradict his initial blanket generalization.

For the record - The Tampa Bay Rays finished last from 1998 through 2007 with the exception of 2004 when they finished fourth. The only starting pitcher, however, which Tampa Bay gained from the last place finishes was David Price who was the first overall pick in the 2007 draft. Shields was a 16th round amateur draft pick, Moore was an 8th round amateur draft pick, Cobb was a 4th round amateur draft pick and Hellickson was a 4th round amateur draft pick. The point being that, other than David Price, all of these other pitchers were available to all teams before Tampa Bay drafted them, and were not the result of Tampa Bay finishing in the cellar.

Stone wins.
Hawk is saying that its all about money and if you do it without money you either have a great manager or have spent many years being terrible acquiring top picks.

Stone is being his smug arrogant self. Don't let the door hit ya on the way out buddy...