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View Full Version : Sox won't talk deal with Cabrera, Crede until after season


Sockinchisox
04-15-2008, 08:47 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080415-orlando-cabrera-chicago-white-sox,1,7392800.story

kevin57
04-15-2008, 08:51 PM
I agree with this approach. Contract negotiations during a season are disruptive and divisive. "Play ball!" means just that. Besides, it may 'motivate' them to produce so as to make a strong case for their $$$. Plus, Bore-a$$ would not make any 'negotiations' anything but contentious.

I know the Moron will disagree with this, which makes me all the more certain I'm right.

Domeshot17
04-15-2008, 08:54 PM
Its smart, we are loving this, but what happens if Joe's back acts up in august and all the sudden we have a 12 mil a year player on the DL.

We tried before the season, they said no, now they have to wait. Joe had plenty of chances to be locked up long term and he turned them down, so while the sox will come out looking like the bad guys here, he and his agent did it to themselves.

It's Dankerific
04-15-2008, 09:03 PM
Its smart, we are loving this, but what happens if Joe's back acts up in august and all the sudden we have a 12 mil a year player on the DL.

We tried before the season, they said no, now they have to wait. Joe had plenty of chances to be locked up long term and he turned them down, so while the sox will come out looking like the bad guys here, he and his agent did it to themselves.

Yeah, the Sox are actually benevolent angels, offering to talk to Joe about an extension before he proved his back was healthy again. I'm sure it would have been fair market value for what Joe provides when healthy.

Crede took a _small_ risk (small because I think a person knows their own body and will) that he wouldnt be done with baseball and miss out on an extension. KW and co are gambling now with not talking extension. Of course, it means nothing. They weren't going to talk with Dye or Mark either...

Craig Grebeck
04-15-2008, 09:10 PM
Good. Take the draft picks and wave goodbye!

Daver
04-15-2008, 09:18 PM
Good. Take the draft picks and wave goodbye!

Yep.

They can use a cardboard cutout of him at third next season.

btrain929
04-15-2008, 09:28 PM
Cabrera: I've never started the year playing so many games in the cold.

Translation: I want to test free agency and see if I can get a decent deal from a warm-weather team.

Tragg
04-15-2008, 09:30 PM
The price - 2 high draft picks - is too high for Cabrera.

chisoxmike
04-15-2008, 09:31 PM
I always have gotten the impression that Cabrera will be a one year rental.

As for Crede, who knows. He ****ed the team over but you won't be able to replace his glove. If he's healthy, you got to at least make an offer.

asindc
04-15-2008, 09:34 PM
Yep.

They can use a cardboard cutout of him at third next season.

Actually, they can use Fields at third next season. Though few GMs/owners who constantly make the mistake ever learn from overpaying for talent, it is the single most damaging decision a GM can make. If Crede wants too much, let him go and start Fields at third.

southsideirish71
04-15-2008, 09:37 PM
Cabrera: I've never started the year playing so many games in the cold.

Translation: I want to test free agency and see if I can get a decent deal from a warm-weather team.


Well hopefully he can heat up when the weather warms up and keep his Type A free agent Elias ratings. Then he needs to sign with a top tier team so we can get their number 1 pick, and the comp second.

the1tab
04-15-2008, 09:45 PM
Actually, they can use Fields at third next season. Though few GMs/owners who constantly make the mistake ever learn from overpaying for talent, it is the single most damaging decision a GM can make. If Crede wants too much, let him go and start Fields at third.

I fear that in 2011 I'll be watching Joe Crede with the same reservations I had watching Robin Ventura have a number of good seasons in a Mets uniform.

You cannot overvalue the caliber of defense Crede brings every single night at third... and while he did turn his back on Kenny by hiring Boras in the first place, there has been enough of a vocal outpouring of support from the team (Paulie, Buehrle, Dye) that I think Kenny would be making a big mistake to not at least explore a mid-size deal (3-4 yrs) w/ him at the end of the season.

103 screwball
04-15-2008, 10:02 PM
They only need to keep one. Alexi can take over for Cabrera or Fields could take Crede's position. If they keep both, then either Dye, Thome, or Konerko will be moved. I have a feeling that Crede will be staying. Ozzie and the pitching staff love the defense. KW has put himself in a decent bargaining position with some depth.

It's great that we don't need to worry about this stuff too much now. There is a lot of exciting things still happening on the field.

santo=dorf
04-15-2008, 10:02 PM
I fear that in 2011 I'll be watching Joe Crede with the same reservations I had watching Robin Ventura have a number of good seasons in a Mets uniform.

You cannot overvalue the caliber of defense Crede brings every single night at third... and while he did turn his back on Kenny by hiring Boras in the first place, there has been enough of a vocal outpouring of support from the team (Paulie, Buehrle, Dye) that I think Kenny would be making a big mistake to not at least explore a mid-size deal (3-4 yrs) w/ him at the end of the season.
Sure you can. I've seen people say he's better than A-Rod because of this.

You don't pay $10+ million a year for defense. He's not even guaranteed a number of defensive plays at third each night, and the number of defensive plays he makes over an average third baseman will NOT make up for his historically below average offensive numbers.

Cabrera can take hike. Maybe Ramirez can figure something out and we can dump OC back to the OC in the summer time. He's no guarantee to warrant type A status, and we still have to run the risk of offering arbitration with his $9 million salary.

If the Sox wouldn't bother to offer type A free agent David Riske (who was making $1.8 million) arbitration despite putting up decent numbers, why in the world would they offer Cabrera guaranteed money if he plays this piss poor? To save face on the Garland trade? :deadhorse:

Domeshot17
04-15-2008, 10:03 PM
I fear that in 2011 I'll be watching Joe Crede with the same reservations I had watching Robin Ventura have a number of good seasons in a Mets uniform.

You cannot overvalue the caliber of defense Crede brings every single night at third... and while he did turn his back on Kenny by hiring Boras in the first place, there has been enough of a vocal outpouring of support from the team (Paulie, Buehrle, Dye) that I think Kenny would be making a big mistake to not at least explore a mid-size deal (3-4 yrs) w/ him at the end of the season.

Here is the problem, Is Joe Crede WORTH 14-16 mil a year? Because that is the number Boras is going to open with. What if Joe goes cold (as Joe has done time and time again) and is hitting .255 at the All Star Break? What if Joe Dives and reherniates the disc? We all love Crede and his glove, but we are 2 weeks into the season. I think it is smart by Kenny and JR to be careful with 15 mil a year and 75 mil total.

If we are going to lay all the cards on the table, make both hands show. Joe has no loyalty to the White Sox, this has been proven time and time again. He went from saying he would fire Boras to stay here to saying he pays Boras to handle everything and he doesn't get involved. Joe is not Buehrle, he will be not taking a home town discount to stay.

Kenny has a lot to think about here. Is Joe Crede at 15 mil a year worth more than Josh Fields and a number 1 starter? Because that is about what 15 mil a year buys you.

WhiteSox5187
04-15-2008, 11:34 PM
This is a good policy unless like last year we're out of contention by the All Star Break and if that's the case Joe is gone and we're looking to go young...but yea, for now let's just try and win. Who knows? If we win a World Series maybe there will be enough good will to get Crede to take a home town discount. I'm not saying that's going to happen, but who knows?

BadBobbyJenks
04-16-2008, 12:02 AM
Does anyone think Joe's glove is worth 15 million a year?

Chilli Palmer
04-16-2008, 12:16 AM
Does anyone think Joe's glove is worth 15 million a year?

Not this guy.

Steelrod
04-16-2008, 12:32 AM
Does anyone think Joe's glove is worth 15 million a year?
Nope!

veeter
04-16-2008, 06:39 AM
Why don't we just enjoy the season.

It's Dankerific
04-16-2008, 07:32 AM
Here is the problem, Is Joe Crede WORTH 14-16 mil a year? Because that is the number Boras is going to open with. What if Joe goes cold (as Joe has done time and time again) and is hitting .255 at the All Star Break? What if Joe Dives and reherniates the disc? We all love Crede and his glove, but we are 2 weeks into the season. I think it is smart by Kenny and JR to be careful with 15 mil a year and 75 mil total.

If we are going to lay all the cards on the table, make both hands show. Joe has no loyalty to the White Sox, this has been proven time and time again. He went from saying he would fire Boras to stay here to saying he pays Boras to handle everything and he doesn't get involved. Joe is not Buehrle, he will be not taking a home town discount to stay.

Kenny has a lot to think about here. Is Joe Crede at 15 mil a year worth more than Josh Fields and a number 1 starter? Because that is about what 15 mil a year buys you.


This is all speculation. You have no idea what Crede wants for a contract, other than the economic rule that more money is better than less money. No Loyalty to the Sox? *** is this coming from? He said he'd get rid of his agent if it interfered with his desires to stay a White Sox. He's avoided arbitration EVERY year, that means something. Sorry he didn't have surgery when YOU wanted him to. I'm sure with Joe in the lineup last year, the Sox win the WS.

You have no idea what Joe is or is not willing to do for a contract, so stop.

PS, let me know when the Sox sign a 15 mil per year number 1 pitcher, especially when they have a 4 year limit.

spiffie
04-16-2008, 10:25 AM
This is all speculation. You have no idea what Crede wants for a contract, other than the economic rule that more money is better than less money. No Loyalty to the Sox? *** is this coming from? He said he'd get rid of his agent if it interfered with his desires to stay a White Sox. He's avoided arbitration EVERY year, that means something. Sorry he didn't have surgery when YOU wanted him to. I'm sure with Joe in the lineup last year, the Sox win the WS.

You have no idea what Joe is or is not willing to do for a contract, so stop.

PS, let me know when the Sox sign a 15 mil per year number 1 pitcher, especially when they have a 4 year limit.
They signed a $14 million a year #1 pitcher last summer.

Craig Grebeck
04-16-2008, 10:46 AM
Yep.

They can use a cardboard cutout of him at third next season.
I meant Cabrera.

Not sure yet how I feel about resigning Crede.

cws05champ
04-16-2008, 11:02 AM
They signed a $14 million a year #1 pitcher last summer.

Yes, but which of these potential 09 FA guys would you give $14-17M/year for?:
A.J. Burnett (32) - can opt out after '08 season
Ryan Dempster (32)
Jon Garland (29)
Derek Lowe (36)
Pedro Martinez (37)
Oliver Perez (27)
Mark Prior (27)
C.C. Sabathia (28)
Ben Sheets (30)
Randy Wolf (32)

I think Sabathia is the only one that is a solid yes to that. Others have injury history(Sheets, Burnett,Prior, Pedro) or are just not worth that cash (Garland, Dempster, Lowe, Perez).

It's Dankerific
04-16-2008, 11:06 AM
They signed a $14 million a year #1 pitcher last summer.

#1, $14 million < $15 million
#2, I love Mark and he might have started Opening Day (as he should), but our #1 pitcher is Javy

voodoochile
04-16-2008, 11:15 AM
#1, $14 million < $15 million
#2, I love Mark and he might have started Opening Day (as he should), but our #1 pitcher is Javy

LOL...

spiffie
04-16-2008, 11:21 AM
#1, $14 million < $15 million
#2, I love Mark and he might have started Opening Day (as he should), but our #1 pitcher is Javy

LOL...
:roflmao: Don't forget this guy. He sums it up pretty well.

PalehosePlanet
04-16-2008, 11:24 AM
Ben Sheets because of his injury history might be willing to accept a 4 year deal. It's up to KW and JR to decide the value in such a deal (4-60ish?) I personally think it would be a good move, although risky.


I'm 50/50 on wanting Cabrera to stay; he probably expects more than the 3-24 he's worth.

slavko
04-16-2008, 11:47 AM
Why don't we just enjoy the season.

This is enjoying the season, here at WSI. The whole matter could be one of players not wanting to negotiate during the season and KW spinning it as best he can. Sayyyy, would you rather have Crede at $14M or a $18M designated hitter (I know we're not paying it).

Just thinking that the MB love is a little out of control 'round these parts. Did I break a rule by writing that?

skottyj242
04-16-2008, 11:59 AM
Am I missing something? Did that article even mention Crede?

Hitmen77
04-16-2008, 12:04 PM
Am I missing something? Did that article even mention Crede?

Yes, it does.

skottyj242
04-16-2008, 12:15 PM
Yes, it does.


I see it now. Man I'm dumb today.

Hitmen77
04-16-2008, 12:29 PM
I like our chances this year with Cabrera at SS and Crede at 3B. They are great for us both defensively and offensively.

OC gives us much needed plate discipline to go along with solid defense. Crede's glove is a huge boost to our pitching. It's hard to quantify the big innings/melt downs he prevents from stopping line shots that might be thru with Fields at third. It'll be interesting to see what Joe does offensively this year. He's off to a great start and could be in for a big year offensively. I wouldn't mind having that kind of performance at 3B and SS locked up for a few years.

That being said, I can't blame the Sox for not getting extensions done right now. Signing both would commit more than $20 million (combined) of the Sox payroll to a player who will be 34 next year and a player whose long term health is still in question. I can see why KW feels the need to let the season play out. If the Sox implode again like last year, perhaps they will need more payroll flexibility to rebuild this team. If we make the playoffs this year, perhaps a resurgance in season ticket sales will give the Sox enough income to lock up both players without crippling payroll flexibility. What if Alexei Rameriz adjusts and catches fire by August such that he looks ready to take over SS for 2009?

Last year, the Sox said they wouldn't extend MB and Dye once the season started and ended up giving extensions to both players in July. Let's see how things play out.

Hitmen77
04-16-2008, 12:30 PM
I see it now. Man I'm dumb today.

No problem. Wednesdays can be like that for most of us.:wink:

Domeshot17
04-16-2008, 01:04 PM
This is all speculation. You have no idea what Crede wants for a contract, other than the economic rule that more money is better than less money. No Loyalty to the Sox? *** is this coming from? He said he'd get rid of his agent if it interfered with his desires to stay a White Sox. He's avoided arbitration EVERY year, that means something. Sorry he didn't have surgery when YOU wanted him to. I'm sure with Joe in the lineup last year, the Sox win the WS.

You have no idea what Joe is or is not willing to do for a contract, so stop.

PS, let me know when the Sox sign a 15 mil per year number 1 pitcher, especially when they have a 4 year limit.

Joe Crede has played the PR game perfectly. Don't get me wrong, If Joe would sign a 4-5 year 8-10/11 mil deal, I would be fine with it. I think he is a top 3 glove at 3rd and has a good enough bat if he is healthy. However, Joe said he would fire Boras, Boras works for him etc etc etc. Last year when Kenny called Scott and said lets talk long term deal, and he said thanks but not thanks, if Crede meant it, and he wanted to stay, that was the time.

The truth is Boras and Crede have rebuffed several overtures by the Sox to talk a long term extension. He may love the City and the Fans, but he does not have the Buehrle or Dye Loyalty to the Sox people try and say he does. If anything, we may be looking AT BEST at a Konerko situation where he uses the market to weigh the Sox Offer, and gives them a shot to match.

And for the you can't sign a top flight SP for 15 mil a year, we have Buehrle for 14, and since you think he is our number 2, and the guy you think is our 1, he signed the year before for 12.

It's Dankerific
04-16-2008, 01:15 PM
However, Joe said he would fire Boras, Boras works for him etc etc etc. Last year when Kenny called Scott and said lets talk long term deal, and he said thanks but not thanks, if Crede meant it, and he wanted to stay, that was the time.

The truth is Boras and Crede have rebuffed several overtures by the Sox to talk a long term extension.

And for the you can't sign a top flight SP for 15 mil a year, we have Buehrle for 14, and since you think he is our number 2, and the guy you think is our 1, he signed the year before for 12.

What I'm saying, and what I think is rational reasoning: Is that Boras or not, no self believing ballplayer (including Joe) would want to work out an extension when he just had season ending surgery AND was going to get a one year deal done the next year ANYWAY. Asking Joe to talk extension at that time period is not a real offer/chance/whatever. Its also certainly not a failure of the test of loyalty. (Even MB and Dye, your loyalty heroes, waited till july of their walk year! and you're penalizing Joe for not doing it 1.5 years before he could be a FA).

about the 15 million for a pitcher: Im not say a good even great pitcher can't be had for less than that, but simply the Sox have not (and in my opinion will not for the foreseeable future) pay 15 million per year to a pitcher.

voodoochile
04-16-2008, 02:17 PM
What I'm saying, and what I think is rational reasoning: Is that Boras or not, no self believing ballplayer (including Joe) would want to work out an extension when he just had season ending surgery AND was going to get a one year deal done the next year ANYWAY. Asking Joe to talk extension at that time period is not a real offer/chance/whatever. Its also certainly not a failure of the test of loyalty. (Even MB and Dye, your loyalty heroes, waited till july of their walk year! and you're penalizing Joe for not doing it 1.5 years before he could be a FA).

about the 15 million for a pitcher: Im not say a good even great pitcher can't be had for less than that, but simply the Sox have not (and in my opinion will not for the foreseeable future) pay 15 million per year to a pitcher.

So you think KW will draw the line at $14M/yr and refuse to go higher? :scratch:

It's Dankerific
04-16-2008, 03:21 PM
So you think KW will draw the line at $14M/yr and refuse to go higher? :scratch:

I'm saying MB took a paycut to stay here (see escalator clauses) and still the deal took forever to get done. I don't think the quality of pitcher (if KW had to agonize over the sweetheart deal MB gave) that would be worth $15 million will settle for all the nice perks that would come with that sort of ChiSox contract (short term, tradeability, etc.)

So I think there are already plenty of lines in the sand by KW and co. and it will result in it being a while before we're handing out $15 mil/year to _ace_ starters. It may be the first time we do that is after the cost of a real ace is $20 and we'll take some 2nd tier guy for $15 (or $10, because we only got 50 cents)

jabrch
04-16-2008, 03:40 PM
So you think KW will draw the line at $14M/yr and refuse to go higher? :scratch:

Voo - I don't see the Sox going out to the FA market to bring in a pitcher from the outside anytime soon. KW has a reasonably smart approach - bring in as many good armed pitching prospects as you can, trade for other young pitching prospects, and try and build as many that way. Find a few who are still signed cheaply and might be a bit roung via trades to supplement vets where needed, and resign the best you have if you can do it at a reasonable price.

The next time I see KW neededing to go to the FA market to get a front of the rotation starter isn't in then next 3 years - so by then, 15mm should be nothing... But next year, I can't see him a bidder for any of the FA starters in the 15mm range - not with MB and Javy at the front, Danks and Floyd in the back, and one more year of Contrers as 10mm. After that - I still believe they have hope for a number of guys in the system to slot into the one open rotation spot after 2009 when Contreras either leaves or turns 65 and is forced to retire.

High end FA pitching is a very risky proposition. Ask the Giants how Zito is working out for them.

asindc
04-16-2008, 04:05 PM
Voo - I don't see the Sox going out to the FA market to bring in a pitcher from the outside anytime soon. KW has a reasonably smart approach - bring in as many good armed pitching prospects as you can, trade for other young pitching prospects, and try and build as many that way...

High end FA pitching is a very risky proposition. Ask the Giants how Zito is working out for them.

This is why I've always liked KW's approach to FA pitching. Heck, it has been the Sox's approach for awhile now. Let's remember that each member of our top-flight staff of the early 90s (McDowell, Fernandez, Alvarez, and Bere) all flamed out after leaving the Sox. And Zito is one of many FA pitchers who have failed to come close to earning their money. Pitching has always been a more risky proposition than hitting, and will continue to be so in the foreseeable future. That's why I rather have O. Cabrera in his walk year than Garland in his.

santo=dorf
04-16-2008, 04:16 PM
Any money the Sox THINK about committing to Crede, Cabrera, or even Uribe for next year and beyond should be taken with high risk. For the money people are expecting these guys to demand and receive, it can add up and land you a C.C Sabathia, Ben Sheets, or Brad Penny along with other free agent pitchers like Derek Lowe, AJ Burnett, and Pedro Martinez

Elephant
04-16-2008, 04:20 PM
Any money the Sox THINK about committing to Crede, Cabrera, or even Uribe for next year and beyond should be taken with high risk. For the money people are expecting these guys to demand and receive, it can add up and land you a C.C Sabathia, Ben Sheets, or Brad Penny along with other free agent pitchers like Derek Lowe, AJ Burnett, and Pedro Martinez

I don't consider any of them to be critical pieces to another WS.

The aforementioned pitchers? Yes. Although beware: jabrch says free agent pitchers are risky.

fquaye149
04-16-2008, 04:21 PM
and that, friend, is one thing Jabrch is right about

santo=dorf
04-16-2008, 04:35 PM
I don't consider any of them to be critical pieces to another WS.

The aforementioned pitchers? Yes. Although beware: jabrch says free agent pitchers are risky.
Unless management signs one of these pitchers and any poster who claims the move might be risky is a "pants pissing dark cloud bitcher."

You wait for it.

fquaye149
04-16-2008, 04:38 PM
:shrug:

let's wait and see. 2009's a long way off.

Elephant
04-16-2008, 04:39 PM
Unless management signs one of these pitchers and any poster who claims the move might be risky is a "pants pissing dark cloud bitcher."

You wait for it.

Sabathia has a damn good track record. Sheets can really only go to a coastal powerhouse. He's just too much of an injury risk. :shrug:

hi im skot
04-16-2008, 04:41 PM
Unless management signs one of these pitchers and any poster who claims the move might be risky is a "pants pissing dark cloud bitcher."

You wait for it.


Is that screenname available?

fquaye149
04-16-2008, 04:43 PM
Sabathia has a damn good track record. Sheets can really only go to a coastal powerhouse. He's just too much of an injury risk. :shrug:

I doubt we'll sign Sabathia. With his injury concerns, his agent will be looking for a looooong deal, and the White Sox won't (and probably shouldn't) accomodate that

Think Zito's deal when you think what CC will command

Elephant
04-16-2008, 04:48 PM
I doubt we'll sign Sabathia. With his injury concerns, his agent will be looking for a looooong deal, and the White Sox won't (and probably shouldn't) accomodate that

Think Zito's deal when you think what CC will command

Of course we're not in the market for either one.

KW does love his ex-Indians though. :scratch:

I_Liked_Manuel
04-16-2008, 05:00 PM
Does anyone think Joe's glove is worth 15 million a year?

i dont think that crede's getting 15m/year, but i think the whole idea that fields can come in and just replace crede is ridiculous. every time crede dives and gets the guy out, that's a double down the line if fields is in there - and i don't even think that's debatable.

santo=dorf
04-16-2008, 05:29 PM
Let's see proof that only Crede is capable of making that play, and how often that happens.

fquaye149
04-16-2008, 06:15 PM
But what about the times when Crede bobbles a routine grondball, like he did 3 times v. Detroit on Sunday Night Baseball?

I'm not saying that it's not valuable to give Crede credit for defense, but let's not play "make believe" what "Only Crede is capable of".

I've seen Fields make a number of diving stabs in my day. I certainly wouldn't use that as evidence that Fields is a good 3B

I_Liked_Manuel
04-16-2008, 06:17 PM
Let's see proof that only Crede is capable of making that play, and how often that happens.

let's see proof that fields can consistently make that play - until he can make it even half as often as crede does, the thought of putting fields in there over crede is a bad idea