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View Full Version : So far The 2008 White Sox Remind Me of The 2000 White Sox.


Thome25
04-15-2008, 08:45 AM
After watching Buehrle and the bullpen's wasted effort, I came to an observation. IMHO this team reminds me of the 2000 White Sox. I'm not complaining or anything. This is just an observation.

They have an offense that will beat a team into submission or turn ice cold in a heartbeat just like in 2000. They're doing the "Detroit Domination" like in 2000.

The starting rotation reminds me of 2000 as well.

2000

Mike Sirotka
Jim Parque
James Baldwin
Cal Eldred
Jon Garland/Kip Wells

We had the old, worn out, on-the-decline Cal Eldred. Jose Contreras fits that role. We had two young starters at the back end of our rotation in Kip Wells and Jon Garland. Danks and Floyd fit those roles. (even though I believe KW and JG split time in 2000 if I remember correctly.)

Do you see any similarities between 2000 and 2008 so far?

skottyj242
04-15-2008, 08:47 AM
I agree in the respect that the offense is all or nothing. We're not going to win many 2-1 games.

veeter
04-15-2008, 09:00 AM
This team's defense is way better than the 2000 team. If the Sox get from Jose what they got from Eldred in 2000, they will win the division. The 2000 team beat your ass and made you like it. Remember the famous Cleveland/ Yankee road trip? Overall I think this team is better. I like our defense and bullpen a lot. Boone Logan is quietly turning into a stud.

jabrch
04-15-2008, 09:08 AM
I agree in the respect that the offense is all or nothing. We're not going to win many 2-1 games.

How is our offense "all or nothing"? We are walking more than we have in any year in my recent memory.

Corlose 15
04-15-2008, 09:08 AM
I think the rotation is better as well. Both Vazquez and Buehrle are better than anything the 2000 team had.

The last two times the Sox have won the division a starter got off to a hot start and won like 8 starts in a row with Baldwin in 2000 and Garland in 2005. Maybe Floyd is on his way there.:cool:

Droso5
04-15-2008, 09:09 AM
Totally agree with the Boone "The Peacemaker" Logan quip. After his disaterous debut a few years back, with most notably that putrid game in KC, he has turned it around like an After School Special. :bandance: I still get nervous when he comes in to games but that tick and heavy breathing is becoming less prominent every game he pitches in.

On the other hand, Mike "I ****ing Suck" McDougal makes me want to throw up.

oeo
04-15-2008, 09:28 AM
Totally agree with the Boone "The Peacemaker" Logan quip. After his disaterous debut a few years back, with most notably that putrid game in KC, he has turned it around like an After School Special. :bandance: I still get nervous when he comes in to games but that tick and heavy breathing is becoming less prominent every game he pitches in.

Logan is only 23...you just have to give him time. He hopped up straight from A in 2006.

On the other hand, Mike "I ****ing Suck" McDougal makes me want to throw up.MacDougal was given bad defense (Cabrera), and terrible calls by the umpire last night. I really dislike MacDougal as much as the next guy, but last night was rough because he really should have gotten two quick outs.

RedHeadPaleHoser
04-15-2008, 09:35 AM
We got shut down by the A's pitching last night. I beg to differ that we'll lose 2-1 ball games....we could be hitting .700 as a club and get shut down ONE NIGHT by a starting pitcher.

Let's not pitch the baby with the bathwater, shall we?

AnkleSox
04-15-2008, 09:41 AM
Every team is going to have games where the offense gets shutdown. Let's wait and see if the offense goes cold for several series at a time before comparing them to 2000. Last time the offense laid an egg they came back w/ 7 runs and 11 runs in the next two games. Hopefully they can do that again today :smile:

102605
04-15-2008, 09:47 AM
They look like the 2008 White Sox to me.

hxcxor
04-15-2008, 09:57 AM
They look like the 2010 White Sox to me..

BeefyD
04-15-2008, 10:36 AM
I don't care what year they look like, they need to dump MacDougal ASAP. My god that kid is all over the place, EXCEPT for over the plate. 5 walks in 6 innings pitched. GEEZ. Boone came in and SAVED that inning yesterday.

Jurr
04-15-2008, 10:43 AM
.
What an incredible first post. Welcome aboard!

hxcxor
04-15-2008, 10:48 AM
Thanks! :bandance:

RockyMtnSoxFan
04-15-2008, 12:03 PM
I think the front end of the rotation is better, but the offense this year is worse. Frank put up way bigger numbers that year than any Sox player will generate this year. Plus, Konerko, Maggs and Lee had good years, Durham scored 121 runs, and Jose Valentin was doing a Joe Crede impression. I forget who was in the bullpen besides Foulke, but I think this year's pen is as good or better.

Jurr
04-15-2008, 12:08 PM
I think the front end of the rotation is better, but the offense this year is worse. Frank put up way bigger numbers that year than any Sox player will generate this year. Plus, Konerko, Maggs and Lee had good years, Durham scored 121 runs, and Jose Valentin was doing a Joe Crede impression. I forget who was in the bullpen besides Foulke, but I think this year's pen is as good or better.
I remember Wunsch, because he was money. Gas can Howry was on the roster, right? And let's not forget one of my favorite Sox bullpen guys, Sean Lowe. He was great for the old spot start!

skottyj242
04-15-2008, 12:16 PM
How is our offense "all or nothing"? We are walking more than we have in any year in my recent memory.

Well we score two and lose on Friday, then we score seven on Saturday, 11 on Sunday both wins and then one last night. That's pretty much the definition of all or nothing to me. We have won ONE game when scoring less than five runs. I'm an idiot though, what do I know.

WhiteSox5187
04-15-2008, 12:20 PM
I think that this offense can pound a team into submission much like the 2000 White Sox, I think we have a better one-two punch in MB and Javy rather than Baldwin and Sirotka(?). The D is better and I think the bullpen is better. The only guy I remember being good or feeling secure when he came into the game was Foulke. I still get nervous when we go to the bullpen but feel a bit better when I see Linebrink coming in and feel at peace when Jenks gets the ball.

Jurr
04-15-2008, 12:23 PM
I think that this offense can pound a team into submission much like the 2000 White Sox, I think we have a better one-two punch in MB and Javy rather than Baldwin and Sirotka(?). The D is better and I think the bullpen is better. The only guy I remember being good or feeling secure when he came into the game was Foulke. I still get nervous when we go to the bullpen but feel a bit better when I see Linebrink coming in and feel at peace when Jenks gets the ball.
Actually, Sirotka wasn't the other stopper that year...it was Eldred. He was bananas that year until the end of the season when he started to wear down.

JB98
04-15-2008, 12:24 PM
Actually, this club reminds me most of 2003 so far. Really, pick any of Jerry Manuel's teams. That's what we look like to me.

We have a hot-and-cold power offense. If you look at our pitching staff, we have five or six guys who are very good and another five or six who are question marks.

I think we're going to be competitive in our division, but we're going to be very streaky this season. Of course, that statement is just a guess at this point. Still way too early to draw any grand conclusions.

White City
04-16-2008, 12:54 PM
I remember going to see him pitch a few innings in Richmond for the Charlotte AAA team.

Our pitching fell apart brutally at the end of that year, and the offense disappeared. Man, that was tough to take. 2005 helped, though.

If I recall correctly, Sirotka lost his effectiveness (this was prior to the notorious trade to the Blue Jays), Eldred couldn't go, Baldwin had a pretty rough final month, and we started Parque of all people in game one of the divisional series versus the Mariners.

Foulke You
04-16-2008, 01:14 PM
I think that this offense can pound a team into submission much like the 2000 White Sox, I think we have a better one-two punch in MB and Javy rather than Baldwin and Sirotka(?). The D is better and I think the bullpen is better. The only guy I remember being good or feeling secure when he came into the game was Foulke. I still get nervous when we go to the bullpen but feel a bit better when I see Linebrink coming in and feel at peace when Jenks gets the ball.
I agree that the D and rotation is better than the 2000 club but I disagree about the bullpens. I remember the 2000 bullpen being a strength of the club. Foulke was absolutely filthy that year, Bill Simas had a good year, Wunsch was an excellent lefty specialist, Lowe was a solid long man, heck we even got a good year out of Lorenzo Barcelo. Don't forget the late season call up of Chad Bradford who posted a sub 2.00 ERA in September. The only weakness in that bullpen was the last 2 pitchers Kevin Beirne and Jesus Pena. They were a little scary but no less scary than MacDougal and Masset. It's still too early to say whether the '08 pen is going to be better but so far, they are looking good.

balke
04-16-2008, 02:18 PM
Haha, the team has one game they lose 2-1, and all of a sudden they are all or nothing? The team has a lot of late inning come from behind wins, and are winning close low scoring games as well as the one loss. They are yet to be shutout, and are an all-around team that so far has flashed leather with starting pitching, bullpen, and hitting.


This team reminds me of 2004 with no injuries, a 5th starter worth a crap, and a better bullpen. That should've been a world championship team with a pitcher and no injuries.

Only difference, I feel there are better teams around the league than there were then, and they will be all or something more than that team, which I believe had like 11 shutouts against them.

Elephant
04-16-2008, 02:53 PM
How is our offense "all or nothing"? We are walking more than we have in any year in my recent memory.

Agreed. This is a solid offense. The 2000 offense was more "all" and rarely "nothing." They scored 978 runs.

Quentin is at about the same point in his career as C Lee was. And I wouldn't be surprised to see similar numbers (25/90).

I think a lot of people are underrating this team's defense. Much better than any Manuel era defense.

Saracen
04-16-2008, 03:26 PM
All or nothing after a couple games not scoring many runs? That's just baseball. Here's how the Red Sox started last year:

L1-7
W7-1
W4-1
L0-2
L4-8
W3-2
W14-3
L0-3
W10-1
W8-0
W7-2
L1-2

I see 4 games in there with 1 or less runs scored. I see only two games won with less than 4 runs scored. All or nothing? Nope, just baseball.

Lip Man 1
04-16-2008, 03:59 PM
White:

Actually Sirotka got hurt pitching against Boston I think in his last regular season start, then aggravated the injury pitching for the U.S. All-Stars against the Japanese club in the Japan series. For some strange reason he was given medical clearance to participate in it.

Baldwin hurt his arm and missed about four weeks of the season in August / September if memory serves and even when he came back (and his performance in #3 of the ALDS was pure guts) he simply wasn't the same.

According to Manager Gandhi after the ALDS it was revealed that had the Sox advanced Parque was done because he hurt his arm late in the season and pitched through pain in #1.

Eldred was NEVER named to the All Star team and his season basically ended when he walked off the mound on July 15th against the Cardinals holding his elbow at Comiskey Park. The Sox doctors inserted screws to help heal a fracture and he actually returned to pitch the final week. There was speculation about him being put on the post season roster but the Sox never did this. Then he hurt his arm again in his first start against Cleveland in early April 2001 and was finished with the Sox.

Yet despite all that was going on with the pitching staff in the second half of the season, G.M. Ron Schueler refused to trade any of his "can't miss" prospects for starting pitching help. Making matters worse was that both Curt Schilling and Mike Mussina publicly stated they'd refuse to allow trades to the White Sox.

Lip

Elephant
04-16-2008, 04:06 PM
White:

Actually Sirotka got hurt pitching against Boston I think in his last regular season start, then aggravated the injury pitching for the U.S. All-Stars against the Japanese club in the Japan series. For some strange reason he was given medical clearance to participate in it.

Baldwin hurt his arm and missed about four weeks of the season in August / September if memory serves and even when he came back (and his performance in #3 of the ALDS was pure guts) he simply wasn't the same.

According to Manager Gandhi after the ALDS it was revealed that had the Sox advanced Parque was done because he hurt his arm late in the season and pitched through pain in #1.

Eldred was NEVER named to the All Star team and his season basically ended when he walked off the mound on July 15th against the Cardinals holding his elbow at Comiskey Park. The Sox doctors inserted screws to help heal a fracture and he actually returned to pitch the final week. There was speculation about him being put on the post season roster but the Sox never did this. Then he hurt his arm again in his first start against Cleveland in early April 2001 and was finished with the Sox.

Yet despite all that was going on with the pitching staff in the second half of the season, G.M. Ron Schueler refused to trade any of his "can't miss" prospects for starting pitching help. Making matters worse was that both Curt Schilling and Mike Mussina publicly stated they'd refuse to allow trades to the White Sox.

Lip

The whole staff did a good job in those three games, except for Foulke hanging a change up to Edgar Martinez...and then John Olerud. But the starters did a good job all things considered. The hitting was just deplorable. Had they played like they did in June of that year they could've gone all the way.

As far as your last paragraph, none of those pitchers acquired midseason by other teams proved to be a big help to their respective teams. Mussina for one didn't even want to come here. So there's really no reason to blame Schueler there. Hell, he made the Charles Johnson trade which was arguably integral to our success in staving off Cleveland in the second half. But this is not to say that Schueler wasn't the king of resting on his laurels. Has there ever been a guy so fond of his own poor draft picks?

asindc
04-16-2008, 04:14 PM
The whole staff did a good job in those three games, except for Foulke hanging a change up to Edgar Martinez...and then John Olerud. But the starters did a good job all things considered. The hitting was just deplorable. Had they played like they did in June of that year they could've gone all the way.

As far as your last paragraph, none of those pitchers acquired midseason by other teams proved to be a big help to their respective teams. Mussina for one didn't even want to come here. So there's really no reason to blame Schueler there. Hell, he made the Charles Johnson trade which was arguably integral to our success in staving off Cleveland in the second half. But this is not to say that Schueler wasn't the king of resting on his laurels. Has there ever been a guy so fond of his own poor draft picks?

I agree. It was the lack of clutch hitting (hell, hitting of any kind really) that lost us that series.

TDog
04-16-2008, 04:37 PM
...
Baldwin hurt his arm and missed about four weeks of the season in August / September if memory serves and even when he came back (and his performance in #3 of the ALDS was pure guts) he simply wasn't the same. ...

The year began with great hitting and great pitching. When the Sox shut out the A's and Hudson 13-0 on Aug. 6, people wanted to see Baldwin stay in for the complete game. Instead, Manuel brought in a rookie -- Mark Buehrle -- to pitch the ninth. A man sitting behind me explaining the game to a friend said Buehrle was good, but the pitching is so good, he just isn't going to get a chance.

Of course, the pitchers fell apart as the season wore on, and the hitters just weren't hitting at the bitter end. For me, the in-retrospect high point of the season wasn't sitting down the third baseline for my first Sox postseason game. The season, for me, peaked a month earlier.

I went to the Sept. 3 game against Anaheim, getting a seat behind home plate about an hour before game time. Baldwin was starting for the Sox, and there were scouts sitting around me,talking about his velocity being down.

Erstad led off the game for the Angels with a home run, and the Angels scored four in the top of the first. The White Sox scored nine in the bottom of the first, but the Angels took a 12-10 lead when Erstad led off the top of the seventh with a home run off of Wunsch. In the eighth, Perry tripled in the tying run and Konerko hit a sacrifice fly to give the Sox the 13-12 lead Foulke protected.

Going into the game, the Sox magic number was nine. Baldwin was through, but as a Sox fan, I knew my team couldn't lose. A month later the Sox couldn't win.

WhiteSox5187
04-16-2008, 05:00 PM
I really think that the biggest reason the Sox lost to the Mariners in 2000 was the fact that the Mariners were a better team than the Sox, plain and simple.

It's Dankerific
04-16-2008, 05:04 PM
I really think that the biggest reason the Sox lost to the Mariners in 2000 was the fact that the Mariners were a better team than the Sox, plain and simple.

I always thought (and kinda still believe in my heart) it was the day game/night game splits we had that year. we sucked in day games, rocked in night games. Yet because of the yankees, we played 3 day games. Our hitters didnt like hitting in the daytime!

TDog
04-16-2008, 05:16 PM
I really think that the biggest reason the Sox lost to the Mariners in 2000 was the fact that the Mariners were a better team than the Sox, plain and simple.

In October, the Mariners had a better team than the White Sox. But the White Sox of the first half of the season were better than the Mariners. The White Sox who scored 11 runs in one inning against the Mariners to erase a 6-2 deficit on April 18 weren't the same White Sox who watched their season end with a squeeze bunt to Frank Thomas.

Elephant
04-16-2008, 05:19 PM
They were fairly equal teams, not much of an advantage one way or another, but the Mariners schooled us in every phase of the game from Manuel all the way down to batboy.

VeeckAsInWreck
04-16-2008, 05:30 PM
My memory of the 2000 team is this, they had a killer first half and simply dominated. The second half they limped (riddled with injuries) in to the playoffs and were simply over matched by a very talented Mariners team the same team that wound up winning 116 regular season games a year later.

Elephant
04-16-2008, 05:35 PM
My memory of the 2000 team is this, they had a killer first half and simply dominated. The second half they limped (riddled with injuries) in to the playoffs and were simply over matched by a very talented Mariners team the same team that wound up winning 116 regular season games a year later.

Only it wasn't the same team that won 116 games. No Ichiro, no Boone on roids, no Freddy (he hadn't come into his own until '01).

VeeckAsInWreck
04-16-2008, 05:42 PM
Only it wasn't the same team that won 116 games. No Ichiro, no Boone on roids, no Freddy (he hadn't come into his own until '01).

But most of the players were there the next year. Freddy had a little down year in 2000 but he was already good. He won 17 games in '99.

The Sox killed themselves by popping up pitches and trying to jack everything out of the park. It seems like Herbert Perry and Charles Johnson were the only ones getting any hits.

Thank goodness for '05 otherwise this would have been our last postseason memory.

Lip Man 1
04-16-2008, 09:22 PM
Elephant:

I agree with you somewhat on the entire hitting in the ALDS comment but remember this...the Sox scored four runs in game #1. That should be enough to win a post season game if you get the pitching. Win game #1 and it's an entirely different scenario isn't it?

And we'll never know who may have been available for the Sox to take a shot with even if they weren't named Schilling and Mussina, but Schueler from what I've been told by some folks in the organization, insisted he wasn't about to trade any prospects of value to find out.

Lip

Jurr
04-16-2008, 09:30 PM
But most of the players were there the next year. Freddy had a little down year in 2000 but he was already good. He won 17 games in '99.

The Sox killed themselves by popping up pitches and trying to jack everything out of the park. It seems like Herbert Perry and Charles Johnson were the only ones getting any hits.

Thank goodness for '05 otherwise this would have been our last postseason memory.
I selectively remember Ray Durham getting my hopes up with an early homer and Harold Baines manufacturing a run. Beyond that, I forgot the whole thing. ......no I didn't, dammit. Man, that sucked.

chisoxfanatic
04-16-2008, 10:12 PM
How is our offense "all or nothing"? We are walking more than we have in any year in my recent memory.
That's because these guys are incredibly patient whenever they go up to the plate. Even Uribe isn't striking out as much. Each one of them are taking pitches more and seem to have a feel for their strike zone so that they know when they should not swing. It's great to see.

thomas35forever
04-16-2008, 10:39 PM
Thomas, Lee, Valentin, Ordonez, Konerko...don't tell me that wasn't a team that didn't live by the offense. The rotation was fine for the first part of the season, but as some posters have pointed out, once they got hurt, the team wasn't gonna make any noise in the playoffs. We probably should've known that from the start.

Elephant
04-16-2008, 10:47 PM
Elephant:

I agree with you somewhat on the entire hitting in the ALDS comment but remember this...the Sox scored four runs in game #1. That should be enough to win a post season game if you get the pitching. Win game #1 and it's an entirely different scenario isn't it?

And we'll never know who may have been available for the Sox to take a shot with even if they weren't named Schilling and Mussina, but Schueler from what I've been told by some folks in the organization, insisted he wasn't about to trade any prospects of value to find out.

Lip

The first game was 4-4 in the 9th. They had a few missed opportunities to really blow the game open. 4th inning, bases loaded, 1 out, Valentin and Thomas due up. Nothing. In fact I remember Valentin missing an extra base hit by a foot or two. Oh, how that series would've been different if it weren't a foul ball. 9th inning, man on second with 1 out and 2-3-4 coming up. Nothing.

They went on to lose 7-4, like I said, because of a freak bad outing by Keith Foulke, and the whole Piniella thing probably had something to do with it. The Sox had a lead in each game and couldn't hold on.

No one ever said Schueler was an idiot. I just didn't think there was much for him to do that year. The problem is that like always his mind wasn't in the right place. I think he was thinking dynasty before even winning one.

Bigfoot38
04-17-2008, 12:25 AM
I think our defense is soooo goooood this year. Youve already seen Crede play. Cabrera and Uribe are turning into a great defensive tandem in the middle. There is not one person in the outfield if a ball is hit to him that the other team will automatically challenge.

As Steve Stone said to the Orioles broadcasters before Wednesdays game. "The defense isn't good, its spectacular. Everyone can throw in the outfield, and everyone can field in the infield. We can compete with the best defenses in the AL."-- me paraphrasing Stoney...


The AL leader, wait MLB leader in RBI hits 8th... our 6,7,8 hitters have 9,13,16 respectivley and our 3,4,5 hitters are 1 year removed from .288 42 109, .315 44 120, .313 35 113. and our top 2 hitters are 1-2 in BB on the team exactly how it should be, oh and we have the magic jaun too!:scratch:


- I am concerned with the lack of speed as far as stolen bases go
- I am concerned where I am unsure if a player on our team can go lay a bunt down with Runners on 1st & 2nd and no out
- I am concerned if Contreras will be Contreras of old


As far as one run games go, our SP has been GREAT, and our bullpen outside Mac, Masset and opening day Dotel, has been LIGHTS OUT... there's no reason we can win one run ball games

by the way we're 6-2 in 3 run or less ball games this year (1-1 in 1 run)

Boondock Saint
04-17-2008, 12:42 AM
I think our defense is soooo goooood this year. Youve already seen Crede play. Cabrera and Uribe are turning into a great defensive tandem in the middle. There is not one person in the outfield if a ball is hit to him that the other team will automatically challenge.

As Steve Stone said to the Orioles broadcasters before Wednesdays game. "The defense isn't good, its spectacular. Everyone can throw in the outfield, and everyone can field in the infield. We can compete with the best defenses in the AL."-- me paraphrasing Stoney...


The AL leader, wait MLB leader in RBI hits 8th... our 6,7,8 hitters have 9,13,16 respectivley and our 3,4,5 hitters are 1 year removed from .288 42 109, .315 44 120, .313 35 113. and our top 2 hitters are 1-2 in BB on the team exactly how it should be, oh and we have the magic jaun too!:scratch:


- I am concerned with the lack of speed as far as stolen bases go
- I am concerned where I am unsure if a player on our team can go lay a bunt down with Runners on 1st & 2nd and no out
- I am concerned if Contreras will be Contreras of old


First off...
:tealtutor:
Good God, man. My eyes.

Second, I agree that our defense looks very good this year so far, but it's early. Let's not go too far here.

As far as the 6/7/8 hitters go, again, it's early in the season. If they keep it up, great. But don't go expecting 140-something more games of this kind of production. On top of that, pulling out stats after two weeks? C'mon. Derrek Lee leads the league in HR's with 6 (I think) while David Ortiz is hitting .121 with just one HR. So what? It's been TWO WEEKS. It's way too early to draw any kind of conclusions about any teams/players right now.

kevingrt
04-17-2008, 06:44 AM
Who's the steroid enraged pitcher? Like Parque? :D:

VeeckAsInWreck
04-17-2008, 09:18 AM
Elephant:

I agree with you somewhat on the entire hitting in the ALDS comment but remember this...the Sox scored four runs in game #1. That should be enough to win a post season game if you get the pitching. Win game #1 and it's an entirely different scenario isn't it?

Game #1 was such a let down. The bullpen just couldn't hold the lead.

That team was a young bunch of kids that were fun to watch play but unfortunately injuries to some key players did them in. I still think that losing Cal Eldred is what hurt them the most. He had a 10-2 record when he got hurt if I'm not mistaken.

Lip Man 1
04-17-2008, 09:38 AM
Elephant:

Remember the Sox had a lead in the 7th inning. It's a game that should have been won but for some bizarre reason Manager Gandhi decided to use in a game situation, Chad Bradford, a rookie who had zero experience performing under that kind of pressure.

He didn't retire a batter and blew the lead.

There was no reason for game #1 to even be tied in the first place in my opinion.

Lip