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ChiSoxJay
04-14-2008, 09:27 PM
I'm really getting tired of the Jim Thome experiment. In the 2+ years with the Sox, I have only seen him come through in the clutch 1 time (his walkoff last year). The guy continues to strike out late in games with men on base to kill rallys. I would rather see Uribe up to bat with men on late in the game than Thome (I never thought I would say that). Does anyone know what his contract status is for next year. I believe and hope it is just a club option which KW better decline.

Thanks

Domeshot17
04-14-2008, 09:34 PM
How Quickly we forget 2006 when thome carried us the first half

ChiSoxJay
04-14-2008, 09:37 PM
How Quickly we forget 2006 when thome carried us the first half

2006 was a LONG LONG LONG time ago! Especially after a brutal 2007 campaign. It's the ole What have you done for me lately?

CHISOXFAN13
04-14-2008, 09:39 PM
2006 was a LONG LONG LONG time ago! Especially after a brutal 2007 campaign. It's the ole What have you done for me lately?

Thome certainly wasn't the problem last year either.

.275 with 35 homers and 96 RBI to go along with a .410 OBP.

Nice thread.

Lillian
04-14-2008, 09:41 PM
I've been arguing here, for some time now, that he should not start against Lefties. With the exception of his homers off C. C. vs. Cleveland in the opener he hasn't done anything. And he has not been effective vs. Lefties in his entire tenure with the Sox.

Now that Fields has started to hit, I would think that it makes a lot of sense to bring him up, and send Alexi down to AAA to get some playing time.
They don't need a back up second baseman, shortstop, or Centerfielder. They have Ozuna, Uribe, and Anderson to fill those needs. They could use a power bat off the bench. That strike out of Thome in the 8th was a perfect place to pinch hit Fields. As soon as the A's called for the Lefty, Fields could have pinch hit for him. And on the days that Fields starts at DH, Thome would provide a very dangerous Left handed bat to come in off the bench vs. a right handed reliever, late in the game.

chisoxmike
04-14-2008, 09:51 PM
:threadsucks:


:threadblows:

JB98
04-14-2008, 09:52 PM
I'm really getting tired of the Jim Thome experiment. In the 2+ years with the Sox, I have only seen him come through in the clutch 1 time (his walkoff last year). The guy continues to strike out late in games with men on base to kill rallys. I would rather see Uribe up to bat with men on late in the game than Thome (I never thought I would say that). Does anyone know what his contract status is for next year. I believe and hope it is just a club option which KW better decline.

Thanks

I'm really getting tired of the ChiSoxJay experiment.

It's not a Thome "experiment." Jim is a future Hall of Famer.

WizardsofOzzie
04-14-2008, 09:54 PM
:prozac

EndemicSox
04-14-2008, 09:54 PM
I'm tired of him being in the lineup versus lefties, but I'll take Big Jim and his high OBP any day of the week. If it's obvious the man has aged quickly come July, I'm sure Ozzie/Kenny will adjust...

I'm sure the Sox have someone on the bench who can match this....196 .314 .350....when a lefty is on the mound...

Daver
04-14-2008, 09:56 PM
You're what hurts?

MrRoboto83
04-14-2008, 09:59 PM
What exactly is left on Thome's contract? This lineup will always be better when Thome is in our lineup.

ChiSoxJay
04-14-2008, 09:59 PM
I've been a member of this site for 3 years now and always enjoy reading the very intelligent Sox chatter that goes on here. I appreciate all your responses. Anyone actually know his contract status though?

kevingrt
04-14-2008, 10:00 PM
I'm really getting tired of the Jim Thome experiment. In the 2+ years with the Sox, I have only seen him come through in the clutch 1 time (his walkoff last year). The guy continues to strike out late in games with men on base to kill rallys. I would rather see Uribe up to bat with men on late in the game than Thome (I never thought I would say that). Does anyone know what his contract status is for next year. I believe and hope it is just a club option which KW better decline.

Thanks

Last year in what ESPN.com considers "close and late" situations Thome batted .281 in 64 AB's. He had 3 HR's, 15 RBI's, and 12 BB's, but he did have 24 strikeouts. His OBP was .397.

With runners in scoring position and two outs he batted .393 in 28 AB's with 22 RBI's and 3 HR's. He also had 6 K's. His OBP was .595.

With runners in scoring position he batted .313 in 99 AB's with 64 RBI's and 10 HR's. His OBP was .496.

Now if you consider this "experiment" not worthwhile I consider you watch more games and don't base everything on 12 games you have watched so far this year.

And if I remember correctly Thome was signed to a six year contract by the Phillies in 2002 with a club option (something like $12 mil or so) in 2009. I do not know how that translates when he was moved to the White Sox, but I believe I am correct.

(This site may help from rotoworld.com... http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_contract.aspx?sport=mlb&id=1700)

Lip Man 1
04-14-2008, 10:12 PM
Jay:

I think the Sox hold the option on him after this season. If they don't want it, they can buy him out for three million. However I also think an automatic renewal kicks in if he has 15-hundred plate appearances combined for the last two seasons. (07 and 08)

Lip

thomas35forever
04-14-2008, 10:15 PM
Don't be surprised if the Sox hold on to Thome for the rest of his career. I don't think that'll happen, but you never know with this front office.

ChiSoxJay
04-14-2008, 10:15 PM
Last year in what ESPN.com considers "close and late" situations Thome batted .281 in 64 AB's. He had 3 HR's, 15 RBI's, and 12 BB's, but he did have 24 strikeouts. His OBP was .397.

With runners in scoring position and two outs he batted .393 in 28 AB's with 22 RBI's and 3 HR's. He also had 6 K's. His OBP was .595.

With runners in scoring position he batted .313 in 99 AB's with 64 RBI's and 10 HR's. His OBP was .496.

Now if you consider this "experiment" not worthwhile I consider you watch more games and don't base everything on 12 games you have watched so far this year.

And if I remember correctly Thome was signed to a six year contract by the Phillies in 2002 with a club option (something like $12 mil or so) in 2009. I do not know how that translates when he was moved to the White Sox, but I believe I am correct.

(This site may help from rotoworld.com... http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_contract.aspx?sport=mlb&id=1700)

For the record..I have been a Sox fan my whole life and watch just about all 162 games a year. With that said, knowing the level of knowledge on this site, I should of did my research before making my statement. I guess the high # of strikeouts with men in scoring position late in the game is what irks me. I wonder what the #'s would be like if the score was taken into account. How many times did he K with the tying or winning run on base late in the ball game?

Thanks for the link to his contract info!

itsnotrequired
04-14-2008, 10:15 PM
Let us stop this wild contract status speculation:

- $13 million club option in 2009 or $3 million buyout
- option kicks in automatically after 600 PAs in 2007 (didn't happen) or 1100 in 2007-2008

He needs 564 PAs this season for it to kick in.

voodoochile
04-14-2008, 10:18 PM
You're what hurts?

Well said... (He is) what hurts (my head)...:tongue:

EMachine10
04-14-2008, 10:20 PM
I've been arguing here, for some time now, that he should not start against Lefties. With the exception of his homers off C. C. vs. Cleveland in the opener he hasn't done anything. And he has not been effective vs. Lefties in his entire tenure with the Sox.

Now that Fields has started to hit, I would think that it makes a lot of sense to bring him up, and send Alexi down to AAA to get some playing time.
They don't need a back up second baseman, shortstop, or Centerfielder. They have Ozuna, Uribe, and Anderson to fill those needs. They could use a power bat off the bench. That strike out of Thome in the 8th was a perfect place to pinch hit Fields. As soon as the A's called for the Lefty, Fields could have pinch hit for him. And on the days that Fields starts at DH, Thome would provide a very dangerous Left handed bat to come in off the bench vs. a right handed reliever, late in the game.

I'd go for that, i think

whitesoxfan
04-14-2008, 10:22 PM
Overreacting much? It's been 12 games. Every player goes through bad 12 game stretches in a season. Jim's start is just getting more magnified because it's at the start of the season.

Without Thome last year, this team would've been about as terrible as you could imagine. He'll heat up. He's the least of my worries right now.

Lillian
04-14-2008, 10:23 PM
Thome is a great hitter, and very dangerous vs. Righties. However, he is simply not even remotely the same hitter vs. Lefties.

Stats vs. Lefties:

In 2006 he hit .236 .354 OBP in 191 at bats with just 6 doubles and 6 homers.
In 2007 he hit .196 .314 OBP in 143 at bats with just 4 doubles and 6 homers.

That is terrible. If the Sox didn't have an alternative, I'd understand. However, with Fields and his success vs. Lefties, it just doesn't make sense not to platoon them.

Noneck
04-14-2008, 10:28 PM
Let us stop this wild contract status speculation:

- $13 million club option in 2009 or $3 million buyout
- option kicks in automatically after 600 PAs in 2007 (didn't happen) or 1100 in 2007-2008

He needs 564 PAs this season for it to kick in.


$13m minus the Phils 5.5m pickup in 09.

CHISOXFAN13
04-14-2008, 10:29 PM
Don't be surprised if the Sox hold on to Thome for the rest of his career. I don't think that'll happen, but you never know with this front office.

:scratch:

itsnotrequired
04-14-2008, 10:30 PM
$13m minus the Phils 5.5m pickup in 09.

You sure about that? I was under the impression the Phillies were picking up about half the remaining salary and the buyout. I believe the option is entirely on the Sox dime.

oeo
04-14-2008, 10:30 PM
I'm really getting tired of the Jim Thome experiment. In the 2+ years with the Sox, I have only seen him come through in the clutch 1 time (his walkoff last year). The guy continues to strike out late in games with men on base to kill rallys. I would rather see Uribe up to bat with men on late in the game than Thome (I never thought I would say that). Does anyone know what his contract status is for next year. I believe and hope it is just a club option which KW better decline.

Thanks

ChiSoxJayMariotti? :scratch:

Since when is Jim Thome an 'experiment?' Juan Uribe over Jim Thome? Pleeeeeease.

Noneck
04-14-2008, 10:35 PM
You sure about that? I was under the impression the Phillies were picking up about half the remaining salary and the buyout. I believe the option is entirely on the Sox dime.

According to this is what I am going by.

http://www.mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=837

itsnotrequired
04-14-2008, 10:39 PM
According to this is what I am going by.

http://www.mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=837

That is the only place I have ever seen that breakdown. As far as I can remember, the actual terms of the distribution have not been disclosed. Was each year actually the same? Was it a lump sump? Who paid his $2.5 million bonus in 2006?

Noneck
04-14-2008, 10:45 PM
That is the only place I have ever seen that breakdown. As far as I can remember, the actual terms of the distribution have not been disclosed. Was each year actually the same? Was it a lump sump? Who paid his $2.5 million bonus in 2006?
I don't know. oeo explained this to me in a previous thread.

Chicken Dinner
04-14-2008, 10:49 PM
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/chicago-white-sox.html

RockJock07
04-14-2008, 10:54 PM
Thome is a great hitter, and very dangerous vs. Righties. However, he is simply not even remotely the same hitter vs. Lefties.

Stats vs. Lefties:

In 2006 he hit .236 .354 OBP in 191 at bats with just 6 doubles and 6 homers.
In 2007 he hit .196 .314 OBP in 143 at bats with just 4 doubles and 6 homers.

That is terrible. If the Sox didn't have an alternative, I'd understand. However, with Fields and his success vs. Lefties, it just doesn't make sense not to platoon them.

Great post, Jim is a class guy and IMO a hall of famer. I just think he needs to not be in the lineup vs. lefties. I'm not saying we should trade him, but picking up a $13 mill option is insane if the sox are only gonna use him vs. lefties.

WhiteSox5187
04-14-2008, 11:32 PM
I like Jim Thome, but I wouldn't be completely opposed to seeing him sit against lefties, it would give us a great bat off the bench later on in games too...having said that, I'm hoping that if we win a WS this year he'll retire. I don't think he will regardless, but I'm not sure if he should be back for the '09 Sox. We'll see.

Nellie_Fox
04-15-2008, 12:24 AM
...I should of did my research ...Yeah, you should of did.

Navarro's Talent
04-15-2008, 12:27 AM
Thome is a great hitter, and very dangerous vs. Righties. However, he is simply not even remotely the same hitter vs. Lefties.

Stats vs. Lefties:

In 2006 he hit .236 .354 OBP in 191 at bats with just 6 doubles and 6 homers.
In 2007 he hit .196 .314 OBP in 143 at bats with just 4 doubles and 6 homers.

That is terrible. If the Sox didn't have an alternative, I'd understand. However, with Fields and his success vs. Lefties, it just doesn't make sense not to platoon them.

Fields won't play every day in that situation, and I think that's the best thing for him right now. I'd love for Josh to be up on the team, but there's sadly no place for him that would guarantee playing time every day. And I definitely don't want to see him back in the outfield just to get him some at-bats.

Boondock Saint
04-15-2008, 02:27 AM
the Jim Thome experiment


Are you serious? You throw that ridiculous phrase out there like he's not a hall of fame caliber player. That could be the dumbest thing ever said on here.


I would rather see Uribe up to bat with men on late in the game than Thome


I stand corrected. This is the dumbest thing ever said on here.


In the 2+ years with the Sox, I have only seen him come through in the clutch 1 time


Well you should watch more games then. Perhaps then you wouldn't be starting threads talking about how Thome sucks. Every player goes cold on occasion. Sometimes it happens at the start of a season.

Lillian
04-15-2008, 05:41 AM
Fields won't play every day in that situation, and I think that's the best thing for him right now. I'd love for Josh to be up on the team, but there's sadly no place for him that would guarantee playing time every day. And I definitely don't want to see him back in the outfield just to get him some at-bats.

I agree that platooning would not be the best thing "for him" right now. However, it could be the best thing for this team, and their chances to win "right now". If they are out of it later in the season, and can't sign Crede, we could trade Joe to a contender and put Josh at 3Rd. But for now, it would be nice to be have Josh's bat available for whatever contribution he can make.
Having Ramirez sit on the bench every day is not doing much for his development either, and that might be even more critical for the future. The Sox need to find out if he can take Cabrera's place next year, before they commit to a long term deal for an aging SS.

Frontman
04-15-2008, 06:14 AM
Seems to me this is just a variation of the Konerko to the Angels/Fields to play 1st magical thinking concept. The reason I say this that this wasn't "thought out" before started as a thread, as a buzzword showed up early; ie "experiment."

12 games do not make up a season. Thome has been 'clutch' on more than one occasion.

And I wouldn't worry about his contract now, worry in July DEPENDING on what the team is doing then.

And lastly, do a bit of thinking for yourself. As someone said, the post that started this thread reeks of a Jay Marriotti-esque style of an "Around the Horn" rant.

Thome will be fine.

Dan Mega
04-15-2008, 06:24 AM
Every AB I see by Thome, its almost as if he keeps looking at the pitches to crush instead of looking for ones he can put in play.

kevingrt
04-15-2008, 06:32 AM
For the record..I have been a Sox fan my whole life and watch just about all 162 games a year. With that said, knowing the level of knowledge on this site, I should of did my research before making my statement. I guess the high # of strikeouts with men in scoring position late in the game is what irks me. I wonder what the #'s would be like if the score was taken into account. How many times did he K with the tying or winning run on base late in the ball game?

Thanks for the link to his contract info!

It's okay that's what we WSI'ers are here for... to rip people to pieces! :D:

soxinem1
04-15-2008, 07:09 AM
Great post, Jim is a class guy and IMO a hall of famer. I just think he needs to not be in the lineup vs. lefties. I'm not saying we should trade him, but picking up a $13 mill option is insane if the sox are only gonna use him vs. lefties.

I'm sure you meant righties, correct?

DumpJerry
04-15-2008, 07:24 AM
http://www.tipiloschi.net/nino/ninoland/MartyFeldmanIgor.jpg (http://www.tipiloschi.net/nino/ninoland/MartyFeldmanIgor.jpg)
I like experiments.........

spiffie
04-15-2008, 07:26 AM
12 games do not make up a season. Thome has been 'clutch' on more than one occasion.
12 games don't make up a season, but the nearly 450 or so PA's against LHP since he has arrived here do make up about a season.

And really you don't need stats to make the argument that Jim shouldn't be up there in tight situations against LHP. The eyes tell you everything. The fact last night everyone in the park knew he would just keep seeing breaking balls out of the zone until he swung at three of them and missed.

I love Thome approach. I don't even mind him up in games against lefty starters, as at least he usually works counts and takes a good amount of pitches it seems. But in the later innings against LHP he becomes a liability, a nearly guaranteed out. And over time that hurts a team, giving up at-bats in crucial situations with an overmatched hitter at the plate.

October26
04-15-2008, 08:02 AM
I've been arguing here, for some time now, that he should not start against Lefties. With the exception of his homers off C. C. vs. Cleveland in the opener he hasn't done anything. And he has not been effective vs. Lefties in his entire tenure with the Sox.

Now that Fields has started to hit, I would think that it makes a lot of sense to bring him up, and send Alexi down to AAA to get some playing time.
They don't need a back up second baseman, shortstop, or Centerfielder. They have Ozuna, Uribe, and Anderson to fill those needs. They could use a power bat off the bench. That strike out of Thome in the 8th was a perfect place to pinch hit Fields. As soon as the A's called for the Lefty, Fields could have pinch hit for him. And on the days that Fields starts at DH, Thome would provide a very dangerous Left handed bat to come in off the bench vs. a right handed reliever, late in the game.

Not to hijack the thread or anything (although this Thome Contract Status thread is giving me a bit of a headache this morning), but I want to ask you about your point of bringing Fields up and sending Alexei down to AAA. I agree with you that we could have used a pinch hitter in the 8th inning of the game last night, but are you suggesting that we platoon the DH position - Thome vs righties and Fields vs lefties? I'm not saying it is a bad idea; just not sure that Fields is that disciplined of a hitter to pinch hit off the bench. Plus, what do you do with Fields on the days that he doesn't play? Will that give him enough at bats to justify having him here instead of playing everyday in AAA?

balke
04-15-2008, 08:03 AM
I'm just glad we don't have big pappi. Its obvious both these guys are way past their primes. I say cut em and bring on fields. .240 is way higher than what Jim is hitting right now. I don't think Thome will ever hit again, I mean how long are we supposed to wait? It's already been 12 games.


/teal.

Billy Ashley
04-15-2008, 08:34 AM
The only thing more amusing than post on this thread is the slamming of the thread creator for not doing his research, but I digress.

Jim Thome is a fantastic hitter. The White Sox line up would be awful with out him. He and Swisher are the only two players that can be counted on for having a high OBP, additionally, even at his age, Thome is massive power threat.

Should the White Sox be looking to replace Thome? Absolutely, he's getting old and his health has been in a question in the past. That said, for 2008 almost certainly 2009 and maybe even 2010, Jim Thome is the best option available for DH.

palehozenychicty
04-15-2008, 08:38 AM
12 games don't make up a season, but the nearly 450 or so PA's against LHP since he has arrived here do make up about a season.

And really you don't need stats to make the argument that Jim shouldn't be up there in tight situations against LHP. The eyes tell you everything. The fact last night everyone in the park knew he would just keep seeing breaking balls out of the zone until he swung at three of them and missed.

I love Thome approach. I don't even mind him up in games against lefty starters, as at least he usually works counts and takes a good amount of pitches it seems. But in the later innings against LHP he becomes a liability, a nearly guaranteed out. And over time that hurts a team, giving up at-bats in crucial situations with an overmatched hitter at the plate.

And that is why this thread was started, on a pure level. The fact that he didn't take pitches against Alan Embree is astounding.

skottyj242
04-15-2008, 08:39 AM
If Thome is up in the seventh or eighth inning with men on base they're going to bring in their left handed specialist. Jim has had stuggles against lefites as we all know. I would rather see him hitting in the ninth against a right handed closer than in the seventh.

ChiTownTrojan
04-15-2008, 09:30 AM
I agree that platooning would not be the best thing "for him" right now. However, it could be the best thing for this team, and their chances to win "right now". If they are out of it later in the season, and can't sign Crede, we could trade Joe to a contender and put Josh at 3Rd. But for now, it would be nice to be have Josh's bat available for whatever contribution he can make.
Having Ramirez sit on the bench every day is not doing much for his development either, and that might be even more critical for the future. The Sox need to find out if he can take Cabrera's place next year, before they commit to a long term deal for an aging SS.
Ramirez's spot on the team looks like a wasted roster spot to me. He doesn't contribute anything offensively or defensively over the guys who start ahead of him. Why have him around here?

Fields would be huge for this team. I don't think it would be a straight platoon with him and Thome at DH, but he would probably see about 2/3 of the starts vs. LH pitchers. And having either Fields or Thome as a possible pinch hitter late in games would be great. He could spell Crede from time to time. Nobody wants to mention it with Crede's hot start, but it's still a big question mark whether or not his back will hold up for the entire season.

I think that Josh is past the point in his develpment where a bench role would significantly stunt his growth. Sure, he'll get better faster playing every day, but it's not going to ruin him as a player if he only plays 3 times per week.

spiffie
04-15-2008, 09:41 AM
If Thome is up in the seventh or eighth inning with men on base they're going to bring in their left handed specialist. Jim has had stuggles against lefites as we all know. I would rather see him hitting in the ninth against a right handed closer than in the seventh.
All other things being equal I might agree. But let's put this scenario out there. Sox are down 2 runs with bases loaded and 1 out in the 7th and Thome's up. The Great Gazoo lets you know that in the 9th Thome will be up again, bases empty, 2 outs, down 2 runs. Do you give up the almost certain out with Thome in the 7th in a spot like that just to get him up again in the 9th?

There are situations that will come up over the year where I suspect the Sox would be well served to PH for Thome in the 6th and 7th inning, even if it means giving up an AB later in the game to a possibly less powerful hitter. I think it becomes even more useful in the 8th inning, in a situation like last night. With a man on base in the bottom of the 8th there was really little to no benefit to the Sox not putting in someone, anyone, other than Thome in that spot. Teams save their filthiest, junkball-throwingest LOOGY just for that moment against Thome.

I'm not saying you always do it whenever a reliever is coming in to go at Thome. But I would like to see them at least start to consider not leaving Thome out there to flail away at breaking balls every single time in the late innings.

soxinem1
04-15-2008, 10:20 AM
Ramirez's spot on the team looks like a wasted roster spot to me. He doesn't contribute anything offensively or defensively over the guys who start ahead of him. Why have him around here?

Fields would be huge for this team. I don't think it would be a straight platoon with him and Thome at DH, but he would probably see about 2/3 of the starts vs. LH pitchers. And having either Fields or Thome as a possible pinch hitter late in games would be great. He could spell Crede from time to time. Nobody wants to mention it with Crede's hot start, but it's still a big question mark whether or not his back will hold up for the entire season.

I think that Josh is past the point in his develpment where a bench role would significantly stunt his growth. Sure, he'll get better faster playing every day, but it's not going to ruin him as a player if he only plays 3 times per week.

Fields, like Thome, is a high K hitter, and being a part time player would probably mean even more.

But unlike Thome, Fields is not an OBP guy, at least not yet anyway.

While I do believe his HR's off Sabathia were an abberation, and that Dye should DH against the tougher lefties (including the soft-tossers that JT seems to have no chance against), I fail to see how bringing Fields up makes anything better.

And on a related matter, the better a year Crede has, the more likely he will go to FA. Same with Cabrera.

That means Fields and Ramirez should be playing 3B and SS respectfully as much as possible. Having Ramirez playing once a week or Fields DH'ing 2-3 times a week at most helps nothing in the long run.

RockJock07
04-15-2008, 03:35 PM
The only thing more amusing than post on this thread is the slamming of the thread creator for not doing his research, but I digress.

Jim Thome is a fantastic hitter. The White Sox line up would be awful with out him. He and Swisher are the only two players that can be counted on for having a high OBP, additionally, even at his age, Thome is massive power threat.

Should the White Sox be looking to replace Thome? Absolutely, he's getting old and his health has been in a question in the past. That said, for 2008 almost certainly 2009 and maybe even 2010, Jim Thome is the best option available for DH.

No. Thome needs to be in the lineup when he has the best chance to have success. When he bats against lefties, he looks bad and hurts the team rather then helping them. Thome is indeed a massive power threat but not agaisnt lefties, the rest he would get from not playing vs. lefties would help the team down the road.

jabrch
04-15-2008, 03:53 PM
However, with Fields and his success vs. Lefties, it just doesn't make sense not to platoon them.

Except that you don't want Josh Fields only getting 1 or 2 games a week and not getting to build his skills against both RHP and LHP.

Jim Thome is not going to be the downfall of this club.

It's Dankerific
04-15-2008, 04:23 PM
Except that you don't want Josh Fields only getting 1 or 2 games a week and not getting to build his skills against both RHP and LHP.

Jim Thome is not going to be the downfall of this club.

Just about any rightie with some pop would be better in these late situations versus junk ball leftie.

btrain929
04-16-2008, 12:09 AM
Thome is getting up there in age, so I doubt he wants to do free agency and bounce around the league on 1 year deals for the next 3 years or so. He lives here, so I'm imagining he'd like to retire here.

If this is truly the case, renegotiate his option (ala Uribe), where we extended him for 2 years at 14-16 million starting in '09. He's still getting a good amount of money (since at this point of his career I doubt he's trying to hit FA and breakt he bank), and it gives him a sense of stability knowing he'll be here to stay until he retires.

Then, he can suck all he wants against lefties since he'll only be a 7 million dollar DH, not a 13 million dollar one :)

chisoxfanatic
04-16-2008, 12:21 AM
Another thing we were talking about at today's game was that this quite possibly will be the last season in Thome's career. He can't go to an NL team, because nobody there will want him in the field, and I'm not so sure many AL teams even want an upper-30s guy who seems to be having declining production. Thome will probably finish his career here and take on a career in coaching somewhere. At least, that's what I think.

soulfly
04-16-2008, 01:16 AM
Lets be honest. If someone, oh say, Brian Anderson was this bad against lefties, or was batting like Thome with this many PA's I'm sure most of you would be saying vastly different things. I understand, obviously, that Thome has done way more in his career than BA, but still. The way he has started so far this season, and his previous troubles against lefties means he should at least not be in the starting lineup against them. Sit him and give anyone else at bats. The one game suspension he just served was easily one of the best things for the team at this point, as it FORCED Ozzie to actually give him a day off. I'm not sure who is worse to watch at the plate right now, Thome, or Uribe. And that's saying an awful lot...

pudge
04-16-2008, 01:51 AM
Lets be honest. If someone, oh say, Brian Anderson was this bad against lefties, or was batting like Thome with this many PA's I'm sure most of you would be saying vastly different things. I understand, obviously, that Thome has done way more in his career than BA, but still. The way he has started so far this season, and his previous troubles against lefties means he should at least not be in the starting lineup against them. Sit him and give anyone else at bats. The one game suspension he just served was easily one of the best things for the team at this point, as it FORCED Ozzie to actually give him a day off. I'm not sure who is worse to watch at the plate right now, Thome, or Uribe. And that's saying an awful lot...

We can all agree Thome hasn't looked good. But he damn near had a three-run homer of Rogers (lefty) about two inches foul, then he damn near had another homer off the Oakland lefty the next day. I know foul balls aren't exactly homeruns, but this is a Hall of Fame stick you folks want to take out of the lineup. I think this entire discussion is insane.

BadBobbyJenks
04-16-2008, 02:35 AM
We can all agree Thome hasn't looked good. But he damn near had a three-run homer of Rogers (lefty) about two inches foul, then he damn near had another homer off the Oakland lefty the next day. I know foul balls aren't exactly homeruns, but this is a Hall of Fame stick you folks want to take out of the lineup. I think this entire discussion is insane.

If only we were playing horseshoes.

Lillian
04-16-2008, 05:11 AM
We can all agree Thome hasn't looked good. But he damn near had a three-run homer of Rogers (lefty) about two inches foul, then he damn near had another homer off the Oakland lefty the next day. I know foul balls aren't exactly homeruns, but this is a Hall of Fame stick you folks want to take out of the lineup. I think this entire discussion is insane.

Let's hope that statements like "this entire discussion is insane" is just hyperbole. What we are trying to say is that he is just not a good hitter vs. Lefties. The stats for 2006, 2007 and this year validate that, and since you apparently watch the games, I'm sure that you have noticed that he has rarely had good at bats against lefthanded pitching. If this were a secret, and the rest of the League was still pitching around him when they have a Lefty on the mound, then there might be some argument to having him in the middle of the lineup as an intimidation factor. However, it seems pretty obvious that he isn't intimidating any Lefties.

Frater Perdurabo
04-16-2008, 06:16 AM
We certainly will find instances where Thome gets hits or homers off of lefties. Perhaps he will have a better season against LHP than he did in 2006 or 2007.

But what cannot be denied is that Fields completely destroyed lefties in 2007. In 106 ABs, Fields hit .321 with 11 HRs, 7 2Bs, 25 RBI and a .698 SLG. To put that in perspective, in 2007 Fields has a better slugging percentage against LHP than Thome slugged against RHP.
:o:

So it's not so much about trying to get Thome out of the lineup, but trying to get Fields INTO the lineup specifically to clobber LHP. Plus, Fields can back up third base, left field and probably even first base if needed. Also, promoting Fields would allow Ramirez to play every day in Charlotte.

doublem23
04-16-2008, 08:17 AM
If only we were playing horseshoes.

If only it weren't April 16 and we've played 13 games.

oeo
04-16-2008, 08:47 AM
We certainly will find instances where Thome gets hits or homers off of lefties. Perhaps he will have a better season against LHP than he did in 2006 or 2007.

But what cannot be denied is that Fields completely destroyed lefties in 2007. In 106 ABs, Fields hit .321 with 11 HRs, 7 2Bs, 25 RBI and a .698 SLG. To put that in perspective, in 2007 Fields has a better slugging percentage against LHP than Thome slugged against RHP.
:o:

So it's not so much about trying to get Thome out of the lineup, but trying to get Fields INTO the lineup specifically to clobber LHP. Plus, Fields can back up third base, left field and probably even first base if needed. Also, promoting Fields would allow Ramirez to play every day in Charlotte.

There is no room for Fields in the outfield. Sticking him out there would be insane, considering we already have a surplus of outfielders (who can actually play the outfield) and one is not getting that many ABs as is.

You guys need to be realistic. Fields is not going to get consistent ABs up here until someone is traded. He hit that well against lefties playing everyday...I'd imagine with the lack of ABs, those numbers would take a hit.

It's just not going to work. We're having enough problems getting our bench ABs as is. I couldn't imagine the FOBA if Fields was getting starts in the outfield over BA.

Save McCuddy's
04-16-2008, 09:00 AM
We certainly will find instances where Thome gets hits or homers off of lefties. Perhaps he will have a better season against LHP than he did in 2006 or 2007.

But what cannot be denied is that Fields completely destroyed lefties in 2007. In 106 ABs, Fields hit .321 with 11 HRs, 7 2Bs, 25 RBI and a .698 SLG. To put that in perspective, in 2007 Fields has a better slugging percentage against LHP than Thome slugged against RHP.
:o:

So it's not so much about trying to get Thome out of the lineup, but trying to get Fields INTO the lineup specifically to clobber LHP. Plus, Fields can back up third base, left field and probably even first base if needed. Also, promoting Fields would allow Ramirez to play every day in Charlotte.

Padre --

I argued your stance here vehemently in the Crede/Fields threads throughout the off season. However, once Quentin was acquired the Fields super corner sub theory began to tank. I too had felt that his bat and the need to spell Crede early in the season and the open situation in left lent itself well to having him up. Whether what has transpired to this point is sheer luck or the wisdom of KW, I am more than pleased at how things worked out. Crede is killing the ball and making it look early like our worst case scenario is a successful '08 campaign and subsequent free agent compensation should we lose him. Fields is taking the high road and starting hot which bodes well no matter what our plans become for him.

But, I am posting to ask those that would bash Thome to consider just how bad Fields' splits are to this point. Sure he has bashed left handed pitching, but that's only an asset 25% of the time. Against righties for his career:

BA .210 OBP .287 SLG .388 in 281 AB's.

Obviously he will have to improve these numbers dramatically in order to develop into a quality regular. Perhaps the future of the club is better served by Josh getting those AB's against righties and improving.

AZChiSoxFan
04-16-2008, 09:12 AM
I've been arguing here, for some time now, that he should not start against Lefties. With the exception of his homers off C. C. vs. Cleveland in the opener he hasn't done anything. And he has not been effective vs. Lefties in his entire tenure with the Sox.

Now that Fields has started to hit, I would think that it makes a lot of sense to bring him up, and send Alexi down to AAA to get some playing time.
They don't need a back up second baseman, shortstop, or Centerfielder. They have Ozuna, Uribe, and Anderson to fill those needs. They could use a power bat off the bench. That strike out of Thome in the 8th was a perfect place to pinch hit Fields. As soon as the A's called for the Lefty, Fields could have pinch hit for him. And on the days that Fields starts at DH, Thome would provide a very dangerous Left handed bat to come in off the bench vs. a right handed reliever, late in the game.

Totally agree. I know it's not going to happen, as that's just how baseball is. Perfect example is the Monday night game vs. Oakland in the 8th inning when he had a chance to drive in the tying run (IIRC) and the A's brought in Embree. Embree's a lefty. Thome doesn't hit lefties and was 1 for 10 lifetime vs. Embree. Why not pinch hit for him? Unfortunately, the answer is because in this day in age, you don't pinch hit for guys making in excess of $10 M per year, even when you know that the result will be an out (speaking of the AB Monday night).

BadBobbyJenks
04-16-2008, 09:28 AM
If only it weren't April 16 and we've played 13 games.

2006 and 2007 stats vs lefties enough of a sample?

It's Dankerific
04-16-2008, 09:34 AM
2006 and 2007 stats vs lefties enough of a sample?

But he hit 2 HRs off of CC on opening day, then like another double of a left a couple days later!! HE IS CURED!

spiffie
04-16-2008, 09:48 AM
If only it weren't April 16 and we've played 13 games.
He hasn't hit even respectably against left handers since the LAST presidential election. It isn't like this is some new thing people are freaking out over because of two weeks. There are over 3 seasons of evidence of declining production against LHP, not just two weeks. This isn't people proclaiming the greatest bullpen ever after 13 games like last year. This is a steadily mounting problem that has been this way for years now.

TomBradley72
04-16-2008, 11:09 AM
For 2009...if I had to choose between:


Crede at 3rd, Fields/Konerko at DH/1B or
Fields at 3rd, Thome/Konerko at DH/1BI'd choose #1....using the savings from Thome's salary to pay for Crede. Groom Fields to replace Konerko at 1B when his contract is up.

pudge
04-16-2008, 12:45 PM
2006 and 2007 stats vs lefties enough of a sample?

This is where stats absolutely get baseball fans in trouble. I love stats myself, but they never tell the whole story.

The point being, Thome is a threat more so than Brian Anderson or Alexi Ramirez (at this stage in their careers) can possibly be against any pitcher, any time, any day. If Thome hits .150 against lefties but wins three games with a homer, is it worth it? I say yes. Again, I mention he almost won a couple games against lefties this week had he not been a hair quick. I knew some genius would come up with a "close only counts in horseshoes" comment, and while we're not playing horseshoes, the point is he has far more potential to win a ballgame with his stick than anyone else we could put in that spot this year. I'll all for moving him down in the order, I would just never take him out of the lineup.

Frater Perdurabo
04-16-2008, 12:46 PM
There is no room for Fields in the outfield. Sticking him out there would be insane, considering we already have a surplus of outfielders (who can actually play the outfield) and one is not getting that many ABs as is.

Oeo, you are infamous for taking one minor piece of an argument, blowing it out of proportion, and then using your refutation of the hyperbole you created to throw out the whole idea.

Let me restate this, specifically for your benefit:

First, to address your specific hyperbolic objection: Swapping Fields and Ramirez would REDUCE the logjam in the outfield without hurting depth.

Now, more to the point: I think Ramirez should be sent down to Charlotte to start every day at SS and to lead off because he needs ABs, and the Sox need to know if he can be a regular starting SS in 2009, because they must make a decision on Cabrera after this year. Ramirez is not going to show that he can succeed, nor will he learn to hit U.S. pitchers, if he's only playing once or twice a week.

Fields already has proven he can manhandle MLB lefties. He should DH against LHP - not because Thome is bad against LHP (which he is) - but because Fields kills LHP.

I'm not arguing that Fields should be playing LF. I'm not even arguing that he should be playing 3B. All I am saying is that he can BACK UP 3B and LF if Quentin or Crede - both of whom are performing well but also are recovering from surgery - suffer an injury.

Take the present roster, subtract Ramirez and add Fields. Fields' primary role is to DH against LHP and pinch-hit.

In the event of an injury at 2B or SS, Ozuna is the primary backup.

In the event of an injury at CF or RF, Anderson is the primary backup.

In the event of an injury at LF or 3B, Fields is the primary backup.

Right now, because of his ability to clobber LHP, Fields brings more value to the Sox, and he's less likely to regress in a backup/platoon role. He has nothing left to prove at Charlotte; the Sox already think he's ready for a full-time 3B job because they tried to trade Crede because he's proven that he's already a good power hitter! Meanwhile, Ramirez will benefit more by playing every day in Charlotte.

What part of this is so hard to understand?

spiffie
04-16-2008, 01:32 PM
The point being, Thome is a threat more so than Brian Anderson or Alexi Ramirez (at this stage in their careers) can possibly be against any pitcher, any time, any day. If Thome hits .150 against lefties but wins three games with a homer, is it worth it?
That sure sounds like a fine idea. Here's the problem with it. September 9, 2004. That's what you have to go back to for the last time that Jim Thome hit a HR to put his team ahead in the late innings. 1,317 days since the situation that you're saying would happen three times in a year has happened. So while yes, in theory it would probably be worth it if you could promise us 3 wins due to Thome hitting against LHP in the late innings, there is no reason on this planet to assume that will happen. You have to assume that Jim will then slide into home on a magic rainbow and throw churros filled with $100 bills in them to all the fans in USCF afterwards for that to be viable.

BadBobbyJenks
04-16-2008, 02:26 PM
This is where stats absolutely get baseball fans in trouble. I love stats myself, but they never tell the whole story.

The point being, Thome is a threat more so than Brian Anderson or Alexi Ramirez (at this stage in their careers) can possibly be against any pitcher, any time, any day. If Thome hits .150 against lefties but wins three games with a homer, is it worth it? I say yes. Again, I mention he almost won a couple games against lefties this week had he not been a hair quick. I knew some genius would come up with a "close only counts in horseshoes" comment, and while we're not playing horseshoes, the point is he has far more potential to win a ballgame with his stick than anyone else we could put in that spot this year. I'll all for moving him down in the order, I would just never take him out of the lineup.


Sorry bud, but almost hitting homers doesnt mean **** to me. I am not saying Jim Thome needs to be traded or anything like that, but until he starts hitting a lefty Ill trade his at bats for more speed or defense.
Thome will probably come around, but right now and for the past few seasons he has been brutal with a lefty on the hill.

kevingrt
04-16-2008, 06:43 PM
Maybe Jimmy took ChiSoxJay to heart.

pudge
04-16-2008, 11:39 PM
Sorry bud, but almost hitting homers doesnt mean **** to me. I am not saying Jim Thome needs to be traded or anything like that, but until he starts hitting a lefty Ill trade his at bats for more speed or defense.
Thome will probably come around, but right now and for the past few seasons he has been brutal with a lefty on the hill.

Almost hitting homers matters to me, because it means the guy can probably hit a few. You're just looking at numbers and not the player. I just don't know what alternative you're looking for. Defense from a DH?? Tonight for example... against a lefty... Sox win 3-1. With your team, they very probably lose 1-0.

That sure sounds like a fine idea. Here's the problem with it. September 9, 2004. That's what you have to go back to for the last time that Jim Thome hit a HR to put his team ahead in the late innings.

Not sure why it has to be late innings... Again.. tonight just perfectly backed up my case... and at the start of '06, Thome was single-handedly carrying this club, I don't care if all his homers came early. Frank Thomas was the king of winning a game with a 1st-inning three-run homer. I'm not saying Thome is Big Papi, I'm just saying we have a much weaker lineup without him.

I'm just really glad certain WSI posters aren't in charge of this ballclub. :gulp:

BadBobbyJenks
04-16-2008, 11:43 PM
Almost hitting homers matters to me, because it means the guy can probably hit a few. You're just looking at numbers and not the player. I just don't know what alternative you're looking for. Defense from a DH?? Tonight for example... against a lefty... Sox win 3-1. With your team, they very probably lose 1-0.



No Dye moves to DH our outfield defense gets better....

spiffie
04-17-2008, 05:43 AM
Almost hitting homers matters to me, because it means the guy can probably hit a few. You're just looking at numbers and not the player. I just don't know what alternative you're looking for. Defense from a DH?? Tonight for example... against a lefty... Sox win 3-1. With your team, they very probably lose 1-0.



Not sure why it has to be late innings... Again.. tonight just perfectly backed up my case... and at the start of '06, Thome was single-handedly carrying this club, I don't care if all his homers came early. Frank Thomas was the king of winning a game with a 1st-inning three-run homer. I'm not saying Thome is Big Papi, I'm just saying we have a much weaker lineup without him.

I'm just really glad certain WSI posters aren't in charge of this ballclub. :gulp:
I can't speak to everyone, but I know I have said I didn't mind him going up against LH starting pitching. Even if he doesn't hit them as well as RH starters, he can still do useful things with taking pitches and working counts. Also, LH starters (and really starters in general) tend to be less the sort of pitcher that just kills Thome. My point was that there is probably a benefit to be had in pinch hitting for him in later innings when teams can bring in their lefty specialists, the junk ball throwing lefties who can afford to throw nothing but breaking balls out of the zone until Jim swings at them.

It's Dankerific
04-17-2008, 10:35 AM
I can't speak to everyone, but I know I have said I didn't mind him going up against LH starting pitching. Even if he doesn't hit them as well as RH starters, he can still do useful things with taking pitches and working counts. Also, LH starters (and really starters in general) tend to be less the sort of pitcher that just kills Thome. My point was that there is probably a benefit to be had in pinch hitting for him in later innings when teams can bring in their lefty specialists, the junk ball throwing lefties who can afford to throw nothing but breaking balls out of the zone until Jim swings at them.

Buy that man a beer!
:gulp:

pudge
04-17-2008, 03:22 PM
I can't speak to everyone, but I know I have said I didn't mind him going up against LH starting pitching. Even if he doesn't hit them as well as RH starters, he can still do useful things with taking pitches and working counts. Also, LH starters (and really starters in general) tend to be less the sort of pitcher that just kills Thome. My point was that there is probably a benefit to be had in pinch hitting for him in later innings when teams can bring in their lefty specialists, the junk ball throwing lefties who can afford to throw nothing but breaking balls out of the zone until Jim swings at them.

I could buy that, it's a much different issue than what I was arguing. Although I'm not sure we have some great bat off the bench that would be worth putting up there in those situations, but I can certainly see instances where it could make sense.

No Dye moves to DH our outfield defense gets better....

For starters, I doubt Dye would agree to that at this point in his career, and I'd still argue it's not a good move. You're not going to improve the defense to a point where it overrides the value of having Thome *and* Dye in the lineup on a daily basis. But we can agree to disagree.