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View Full Version : Crede/Borass whos really in charge?


white sox bill
04-12-2008, 10:39 AM
Been thinking for a while on above....is this a classoc case of the tail waging the dog or what? Is Boras the boss and Joe is the follower? If Joe wants to stay (like he supposdly does) and is willing to give a bit of a home town discount like MB, then does Borass still veto the deal even though AGAINST Joe's wishes? Does Borass command a higher fee if Joe goes against his highest negoiated contract?

I have an attorney for my business purposes and him and I will lock horns from time to time but I have the ultimate choice certainly not him. I know this is BIG BUCK game much larger than I can imagine, but someone enlighten me as to who really is calling the shots here

Dan Mega
04-12-2008, 11:47 AM
Been thinking for a while on above....is this a classoc case of the tail waging the dog or what? Is Boras the boss and Joe is the follower? If Joe wants to stay (like he supposdly does) and is willing to give a bit of a home town discount like MB, then does Borass still veto the deal even though AGAINST Joe's wishes? Does Borass command a higher fee if Joe goes against his highest negoiated contract?


Many agents who try to pull this will get fired. Look at what A-Rod did last offseason.

Ultimately its Joe's final decision as the paycheck goes to him and his family.

Oblong
04-12-2008, 12:40 PM
Don't forget that Kenny Rogers fired Boras too. If an athlete really is interested in staying with his team, like ARod and Kenny then Boras really has no role other than fact checking the contract. If Crede and the Sox can agree on general terms then the rest can be worked out by the lawyers.

jabrch
04-12-2008, 12:48 PM
Crede makes the decisions. Boras works at his direction. Players don't accidentally hire Scott Boras. They hire him because he is one of the best at what he does, and his players regularly get pretty close to what they want.

If Joe WANTED to sign with the Sox for 3 years and 7mm per, he'd have done that a long time ago.

champagne030
04-12-2008, 01:38 PM
If Joe WANTED to sign with the Sox for 3 years and 7mm per, he'd have done that a long time ago.

Source? When was that on the table or are you just being an armchair GM?

TDog
04-12-2008, 01:46 PM
Crede makes the decisions. Boras works at his direction. Players don't accidentally hire Scott Boras. They hire him because he is one of the best at what he does, and his players regularly get pretty close to what they want.

If Joe WANTED to sign with the Sox for 3 years and 7mm per, he'd have done that a long time ago.

Exactly. Crede wants a big contract, and he is in a position where Boras will take him on as an agent with a track record of securing big contracts for his A-list clients. He is ruthless because he doesn't care where his clients play as long as they get the most money. Players know that. They may give Boras or any direction, but the point of having an agent when you are in a position where you can negotiate with anyone is to drive up your price. Players also know that Boras has a reputation for moving players and not considering resigning players before they reach free agency.

I would like to think that if I were a professional baseball player, I wouldn't have an agent, paying him a percentage of the money I earn. Union dues and taxes are bad enough. The reality is that I would because the agent knows what he is doing and would relieve me of the burden of contract negotiations. But if I played for the White Sox and were looking for a good contract extension, I wouldn't be hiring Boras.

jabrch
04-12-2008, 01:55 PM
I would like to think that if I were a professional baseball player, I wouldn't have an agent, paying him a percentage of the money I earn. Union dues and taxes are bad enough. The reality is that I would because the agent knows what he is doing and would relieve me of the burden of contract negotiations. But if I played for the White Sox and were looking for a good contract extension, I wouldn't be hiring Boras.

There is another option - you can hire a lawyer - but not an agent. That said, having an agent is a good idea. Having Scott Boras is a great idea, if what is most important is getting the most money you can. I can't blame Joe. His back may at some point shorten his career significantly. If I were him, and I hate to say this, I'd want to make sure I use my first and possibly best shot at FA to set my family up for life.

It's a business - that's the sad truth.

WhiteSox5187
04-12-2008, 03:53 PM
As has been stated if Joe Crede REALLY wanted to stay here, he would work something out. But as of right now since Crede is supposed to be playing he might leave all the work up to Boras and Boras might have his own agenda. But if Crede REALLY wants to stay, he'll find a way to stay here. I'm not sure he does though. We'll see. If we're contending and Crede is contributing at the same level he is now, we might wind up working something out come July, but Kenny would have to keep making offers and trying to get Joe to the bargaining table and then if Boras does his typical game of "We want to see what the FA market has to offer" we'll know where Crede stands. If he agrees with Boras, he wants the money. But if he says "**** it, i want to stay here, if Kenny is willing to talk, so am I." Then i think it's clear he wants to stay here. We'll see.

munchman33
04-12-2008, 04:07 PM
Source? When was that on the table or are you just being an armchair GM?

You're missing his point. That's a below market deal the Sox would certainly jump on. Crede CAN stay here, if he's willing to do something like this. If he was willing to, however, it would already be done.

TDog
04-12-2008, 07:45 PM
There is another option - you can hire a lawyer - but not an agent. That said, having an agent is a good idea. Having Scott Boras is a great idea, if what is most important is getting the most money you can. I can't blame Joe. His back may at some point shorten his career significantly. If I were him, and I hate to say this, I'd want to make sure I use my first and possibly best shot at FA to set my family up for life.

It's a business - that's the sad truth.

That is a good point. If I were an MLB player and wanted to stay with my team, I would hire an attorney to act as my agent and work out the deal.

I certainly wouldn't hire an agent who is known for handling big-money free agents.

EndemicSox
04-12-2008, 07:51 PM
If a ballplayer hires an agent with Boras' reputation, the ballplayer is looking to squeeze every possible dollar out of a potential club that he can. I don't see anything inherently wrong with this strategy, but it is what it is...

Daver
04-12-2008, 07:51 PM
That is a good point. If I were an MLB player and wanted to stay with my team, I would hire an attorney to act as my agent and work out the deal.

I certainly wouldn't hire an agent who is known for handling big-money free agents.

The agent also have handles endorsement deals, how many lawyers get contacted for that?

DumpJerry
04-12-2008, 08:05 PM
There is another option - you can hire a lawyer - but not an agent. That said, having an agent is a good idea. Having Scott Boras is a great idea, if what is most important is getting the most money you can. I can't blame Joe. His back may at some point shorten his career significantly. If I were him, and I hate to say this, I'd want to make sure I use my first and possibly best shot at FA to set my family up for life.

It's a business - that's the sad truth.

That is a good point. If I were an MLB player and wanted to stay with my team, I would hire an attorney to act as my agent and work out the deal.

I certainly wouldn't hire an agent who is known for handling big-money free agents.
Ummm....no. To negotiate on behalf of a member of the MLB Players Association (all MLB players are members), you have to be a registered agent through the MLBPA. In order to be registered, you have to, among other things, have a client on a 40 man roster. You also have to provide a lot of information about yourself to show that you know what you are doing when it comes to representing players on contracts for both playing and endorsements. I know this because a lawyer in my office and I looked into this and got the paperwork. Since we don't have a client on a 40 man roster, there is nothing we can do.

If you are not registered as an agent with the MLBPA, no team will return your phone calls no matter who you tell them you are representing.

The NFL is even harder to crack into as an agent. You have to take and pass an exam. The MLBPA does not require an exam.

TDog
04-12-2008, 08:13 PM
The agent also have handles endorsement deals, how many lawyers get contacted for that?

Maybe that's why I wasn't doing commercials in my fantasy baseball career.

In California there are firms that specialize in entertainment law. Their work doesn't seem to differ from that of sports agents. But obviously entertainers have agents as well. I don't know how much overlap there is.

DumpJerry
04-12-2008, 08:35 PM
Maybe that's why I wasn't doing commercials in my fantasy baseball career.

In California there are firms that specialize in entertainment law. Their work doesn't seem to differ from that of sports agents. But obviously entertainers have agents as well. I don't know how much overlap there is.
I suspect there is very little cross-pollination between entertainment and sports agents. Each industry (movies, sports, stage, etc.) are very different from each other and an agent needs to be an absolute expert in the particular industry to be effective. Even in sports, there are very few, if any, agents who represent in more than one sport. You never hear about Drew Rosenhaus representing baseball or basketball players or Borass representing non-baseball players. An agent has to tell a GM more than just "my keeeed is a good player" when making a sale. The agent needs to show he understands baseball, the particular team's needs and his client's strengths and weakness to a degree higher than anyone else does.

While an established player like Crede or ARod do not need Borass to sell them, he is extremely valuable to high school and college players. Borass has a scouting operation that would put to shame the scouting operation of any MLB team. If a high school kid is considered by Borass, it can be assumed the kid has The Right Stuff. Borass also has a medical staff of doctors and trainers who work with the clientele on injuries and rehab issues. This is another added value of having Borass as your agent if you're a nobody because an injury can get you dismissed as a has-been by a team, but his people can show MLB teams that you're still worth looking at. How many times have you heard about a high school phenom getting injured while in Low A ball and having his career terminated while a similar injury to an established (and older) player gets a trip on the DL and a continuation of his career after rehab? A lot.

btrain929
04-12-2008, 10:36 PM
Don't forget that Kenny Rogers fired Boras too. If an athlete really is interested in staying with his team, like ARod and Kenny then Boras really has no role other than fact checking the contract. If Crede and the Sox can agree on general terms then the rest can be worked out by the lawyers.

Crede and the Sox won't be discussing any terms. It's the White Sox and Scott Boras. Boras can tell Crede what he suggested and what the Sox offered, and Crede can tell him his input. But Crede won't be at the table saying this is what I want, take it or leave it.

voodoochile
04-12-2008, 11:11 PM
Crede and the Sox won't be discussing any terms. It's the White Sox and Scott Boras. Boras can tell Crede what he suggested and what the Sox offered, and Crede can tell him his input. But Crede won't be at the table saying this is what I want, take it or leave it.

He can be if he wants to be. The Sox could even suggest that he do so, but they cannot force him to do that nor should they try to bargain with him solely without asking him it it's okay first (hello Horace Grant).

Having an agent bargain for you is not required, but it's an option.

In the NBA for example, with max contracts, many big name stars have gone away from using an agent knowing they are going to get what they are going to get, so why pay someone 10% when they can get their attorney to look over the paperwork for $1,000.

jabrch
04-12-2008, 11:36 PM
Ummm....no. To negotiate on behalf of a member of the MLB Players Association (all MLB players are members), you have to be a registered agent through the MLBPA.

Dump - a player doesn't have to have a registered agent jf they don't want - and he still can have legal counsel to review paperwork and contracts - right?

btrain929
04-13-2008, 12:05 AM
He can be if he wants to be. The Sox could even suggest that he do so, but they cannot force him to do that nor should they try to bargain with him solely without asking him it it's okay first (hello Horace Grant).

Having an agent bargain for you is not required, but it's an option.

In the NBA for example, with max contracts, many big name stars have gone away from using an agent knowing they are going to get what they are going to get, so why pay someone 10% when they can get their attorney to look over the paperwork for $1,000.

I guess I'm going more off of what Crede said in spring training, something to the tune of "that's why I pay Boras, to handle all that," and not "we'll all get in a room and try to work something out."

DumpJerry
04-13-2008, 01:41 AM
Dump - a player doesn't have to have a registered agent jf they don't want - and he still can have legal counsel to review paperwork and contracts - right?
True. It's just that if a player wants someone to negotiate with a team, that person has to be registered. There are players who are not represented and do their own negotiating. I know there were one or two Sox players in recent history who did this. I thought Buehrle did this for a while, but I could be wrong.

Some might read this and ask if Warren Buffet et al were registered agents when they worked out the A Rod deal last Fall with the Yanks. Buffet and the others were on the Management side of the deal, they were not representing A Rod. They wanted A Rod to remain with the team and let it be known they would pay anything to keep him. I'm guessing Borass overplayed his hand with A Rod on how to respond and A Rod told him to shove it because what they offered was more than acceptable. Since the contract involved money comparable to the GNP of medium sized countries, it was prudent for A Rod to have Borass' financial people look it over to make sure the tax consquences, etc. were favorable to A Rod.

Domeshot17
04-13-2008, 01:53 AM
Dump question for you because Im confused on the wording (never knew about the registering thing).

You said the only way to get registered is if you have a client who is part of the mlbpa. By that do you mean the Client has retained you as an attorney, and you are trying to move up to represent him more?

I guess I am asking because it almost seems like a catch 22, can't get clients and be an agent without registering, and can't register without having clients who are part of the mlbpa.

kevin57
04-13-2008, 06:52 AM
Yes, Crede is the master of his own ship. It is his decision a) to hire, retain, or fire Bore-a$$, b) to give him specific directives (i.e., "Somehow keep me on this team, while working out the best deal you can.") I call this the Mark Buerhle philosophy.

However, as has been said, if that's what Crede COULD do, he doesn't need or want Bore-a$$.

Remember, too, a lot of baseball players, and I would put Joe in this category, are not the brightest bulbs when it comes to money matters. Many are like kids and their agents become their daddies who basically dictate to their clients what's in their "best interests."

Finally, does Joe have wife and kids or other close relatives in Chicago? I ask because I suspect that Buerhle and Konerko and others give the "home town discount" because their wives especially say something like, "We've got our home here. The kids have their friends here. I don't want to uproot everything. Stay!" When wife speaks, hubbie listens.

DumpJerry
04-13-2008, 10:17 AM
Dump question for you because Im confused on the wording (never knew about the registering thing).

You said the only way to get registered is if you have a client who is part of the mlbpa. By that do you mean the Client has retained you as an attorney, and you are trying to move up to represent him more?

I guess I am asking because it almost seems like a catch 22, can't get clients and be an agent without registering, and can't register without having clients who are part of the mlbpa.
It is a Catch 22. The way the guy in my office and I look at it, there are two ways to get a client who is on a 40 man roster: 1) find someone who somehow does not have an agent who is on a 40 man (very rare), or 2) work for an agent and then leave with a client in tow ala Jerry McGuire.

They have specific rules against tampering with someone who is already represented, so you can't approach a player and tell him his agent is a crook and he should go with you. If you are a lawyer who happens to represent a baseball player in his non baseball player capacity, you can always accept him as a client for your budding agency business if he makes it a free and willing choice.

One thing that is not required is that agents don't have to be lawyers. I remember once a while back there was a player (I think with the Bulls) who hired a dentist to be his agent.

If you focus on the policy behind the rules, they make sense. The MLBPA exists to look out for the players' best interests. Since most of the players are young kids in their 20's, they are easily impressionable and exploitable to slick snake oil salesmen, the MLBPA has set up a system to protect the players from being exploited.