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It's Time
04-07-2008, 07:08 PM
Where are you these days? :D:

Mr. Clutch and sign him to a 3 year deal if his back is alright. NO ONE is more clutch then him, NO ONE.

ilsox7
04-07-2008, 07:09 PM
Where are you these days? :D:

Mr. Clutch and sign him to a 3 year deal if his back is alright. NO ONE is more clutch then him, NO ONE.

First, I don't think you'll find many (if any) Crede haters on WSI. Second, if you think he will sign a three year deal, I've got a wonderful bridge for sale in NY.

WhiteSox5187
04-07-2008, 07:10 PM
I love Crede and I'm going to miss him...but unless he is willing to take a hometown discount (not the one perpetrated by Mr. Boras), then I'd be willing to sign him. But for now, he should be gone by about July.

It's Time
04-07-2008, 07:11 PM
First, I don't think you'll find many (if any) Crede haters on WSI. Second, if you think he will sign a three year deal, I've got a wonderful bridge for sale in NY.

He said he wants to stay here and would love to resign. Kenny, get it done!

ilsox7
04-07-2008, 07:12 PM
He said he wants to stay here and would love to resign. Kenny, get it done!

He has said that for years. If he means it, something will happen. Actions > words.

It's Time
04-07-2008, 07:12 PM
But for now, he should be gone by about July.

:o::?:

ShoelessJoeS
04-07-2008, 07:14 PM
I love Crede and I'm going to miss him...but unless he is willing to take a hometown discount (not the one perpetrated by Mr. Boras), then I'd be willing to sign him. But for now, he should be gone by about July.
If Crede continues this level of play come July, no way in hell he's traded.

JB98
04-07-2008, 07:14 PM
I love Crede and I'm going to miss him...but unless he is willing to take a hometown discount (not the one perpetrated by Mr. Boras), then I'd be willing to sign him. But for now, he should be gone by about July.

If we're in contention, no way KW trades Crede.

Without him, we're probably 3-4 or 2-5 right now. His offensive and defensive play make a HUGE difference.

He has two game-winning HRs and a outstanding defensive play to save a game. All in the first week of the season.

IlliniSox4Life
04-07-2008, 07:15 PM
Nobody here (or very few people) "hate" Crede. A lot of people were skeptical that he could return from back surgery and be effective as he was before. That was a well founded fear as back surgery can really mess with a player. The other thing people don't like about him is that his agent is Scott Boras, and Boras is the worst agent to deal with.

Chicken Dinner
04-07-2008, 07:15 PM
I think there is more Scott Boras haters than Crede haters. :?:

WhiteSox5187
04-07-2008, 07:15 PM
:o::?:
I love him, don't get me wrong! But regardless of all his words, he's looking for big money, well, maybe Boras is instead. If he's willing to come to the table, fine, let's talk. But Boras has made it perfectly clear that Crede is going to walk. If that's the case better to get something for him rather than nothing...the only exception would be if Crede is hitting something like .300 and we're in a tight pennant race. Other wise we got a guy who is ready to take his place.

turners56
04-07-2008, 07:17 PM
Nobody hates Joe, they might like Fields over him, but there is rarely hate for any player on the Sox on this forum. There's frustration, but hate is a strong word.

Billy Ashley
04-07-2008, 07:17 PM
Crede is a nice player but most of his value comes from being a very good fielder. Given his back and the fact he he's getting older do you think it would be wise to resign him to an extension? I don't.

The man's been a well below average hitter for most of his career. His career OBP is a woeful .306. No one knows how his mobility and durability is going to be affected by the injury that wiped out all of 07. Extending him further and risking his regression with the glove could result in the worst 3b in the league playing for the white sox.

If he stays healthy and continues to hit, Williams should trade him in order to sell high.

I'm not crazy about Josh Fields but he's got some very nice raw skills. Unless you think the White Sox are in win it now mode, they should go with the cheaper and more durable option.

It's Time
04-07-2008, 07:17 PM
Haters=Bashers. I don't mean the actual word hate, but this guy has taken some unjustified heat, IMO. There is not one player on the team I'd rather have up then him when all the marbles are on the line.

Not only that, the dude can flat throw the leather. Sorry, sign the man to a multi-year deal.

The Thomenator
04-07-2008, 07:18 PM
If a deal can get in place, it makes Fields expendible at the deadline for a piece for a stretch run. KW is laughing at all those who questioned this move. He's in a win-win situation, no doubt.

turners56
04-07-2008, 07:20 PM
If we let Thome and his 13 million dollars go (which is a very hard decision, even if he has a mediocre season, he is Jim Thome...), there shouldn't be a reason why we can't give Crede some money, that is of course, IF he produces. Joe still has a lot to prove to give the front office confidence to resign him, this is the first of many steps.

JB98
04-07-2008, 07:21 PM
Haters=Bashers. I don't mean the actual word hate, but this guy has taken some unjustified heat, IMO. There is not one player on the team I'd rather have up then him when all the marbles are on the line.

Not only that, the dude can flat throw the leather. Sorry, sign the man to a multi-year deal.

I wouldn't sign him just yet.

I'm a huge Crede fan. Absolutely love having the guy on the Sox. But one great week doesn't erase the question marks about his health.

Right now, the proper thing to do with Crede is stay the course. Don't trade him. Don't sign him. Just put him a 3B every day and let him be the player he is. If he's still doing this in June, time to start negotiating.

It's Time
04-07-2008, 07:21 PM
[quote=The Thomenator;1845688]KW is laughing at all those who questioned this move. quote]

:crede"Snicker"

:KW"Bwaahahahaha"

Frater Perdurabo
04-07-2008, 07:21 PM
I wouldn't sign him just yet.

I'm a huge Crede fan. Absolutely love having the guy on the Sox. But one great week doesn't erase the question marks about his health.

Right now, the proper thing to do with Crede is stay the course. Don't trade him. Don't sign him. Just put him a 3B every day and let him be the player he is. If he's still doing this in June, time to start negotiating.

Agreed on all counts. :smile:

thomas35forever
04-07-2008, 07:22 PM
We're trying to go as far as this team will go. As long as they keep playing like this, Crede needs to stay no matter WHAT.

Domeshot17
04-07-2008, 07:26 PM
Ive said it before (and I have kind of been in the middle in terms of Crede vs Fields) and I will say it again:

(1)I like Crede as a player, but my LOYALTY to him is as strong as his to the Sox. He can say how much he wants to sign an extension until he is blue in the face, but when he says it day after day, and his agent keeps saying how Joe wants to test FA and will test FA, you have the truth right there. Joe has said he would fire Boras if need be, well he is now in a walk year with Boras still his agent. Joe Crede probably has a 1/8 chance to be our 3b next year.

(2) I think the problem most had was Joe's spring. Ozzie and Kenny said the 2 would be in competition and the best performance would be the 3b. In the spring, Fields vastly outplayed Joe. Joe ended up with the job because Fields had options and Joe had a major league contract


All that said Joe has played well this first week. He looked hesitant in the first 2 games of the season to let his back go when swinging, and since has swung the bat pretty well. He still is popping the ball up too much, but that is what his swing will do naturally.

I think most posters hit the nail on the head saying no one HATES Joe. We have an all star in the making ready to replace him and in terms of a contract Joe has been all talk. You don't trade Fields because he still has more upside and also is ours for 5 more years, whereas Joe will be gone this offseason.

It's Time
04-07-2008, 07:26 PM
:hawk
"Joe Creeeeeeede"!!!

doublem23
04-07-2008, 07:26 PM
I wouldn't sign him just yet.

I'm a huge Crede fan. Absolutely love having the guy on the Sox. But one great week doesn't erase the question marks about his health.

Right now, the proper thing to do with Crede is stay the course. Don't trade him. Don't sign him. Just put him a 3B every day and let him be the player he is. If he's still doing this in June, time to start negotiating.

Oh look, a conclusion drawn logically and not emotionally.

Anyways, Josh Fields would have hit a 5-run homer. You better believe it.

fquaye149
04-07-2008, 07:26 PM
I loved Joe before he got hurt, and if he's back to healthy and wants to come back, awesome.

Let's just work on them routine grounders Joe!

Jjav829
04-07-2008, 07:28 PM
Is this the beginning of the yang to the negative overreactions ying at WSI? :smile:

It's Time
04-07-2008, 07:28 PM
Oh look, a conclusion drawn logically and not emotionally.

Anyways, Josh Fields would have hit a 5-run homer. You better believe it.

Emotion? Can I introduce you to the 2005 playoffs? He's proven it time and time again.

If he is healthy and a deal can be worked out, you keep Joe.

fquaye149
04-07-2008, 07:30 PM
Emotion? Can I introduce you to the 2005 playoffs? He's proven it time and time again.

If he is healthy and a deal can be worked out, you keep Joe.

Time and time again=2005 playoffs?

Crede's a great defensive 3B, and he's definitely had his clutch moments, but he's not exactly been mr. Consistent with the bat.

Let's cool our ****ing jets before we start ripping up confetti for the Joe Crede parade

ilsox7
04-07-2008, 07:30 PM
Emotion? Can I introduce you to the 2005 playoffs? He's proven it time and time again.

If he is healthy and a deal can be worked out, you keep Joe.

That's kind of like saying, "If I have a crystal ball and can see the lottery numbers this week, I play them."

JB98
04-07-2008, 07:31 PM
Agreed on all counts. :smile:

Uh, oh. Frater agrees with me.

Is this the beginning of the end?

:)

fquaye149
04-07-2008, 07:32 PM
Uh, oh. Frater agrees with me.

Is this the beginning of the end?

:)

:chickenlittle:

It's Time
04-07-2008, 07:32 PM
Time and time again=2005 playoffs?

Crede's a great defensive 3B, and he's definitely had his clutch moments, but he's not exactly been mr. Consistent with the bat.

Let's cool our ****ing jets before we start ripping up confetti for the Joe Crede parade

2006?:dunno:

JB98
04-07-2008, 07:33 PM
:chickenlittle:

:gulp:

fquaye149
04-07-2008, 07:33 PM
2006?:dunno:

2007?


2005(!!!) (tm)

areilly
04-07-2008, 07:34 PM
Haters=Bashers. I don't mean the actual word hate, but this guy has taken some unjustified heat, IMO. There is not one player on the team I'd rather have up then him when all the marbles are on the line.

Not only that, the dude can flat throw the leather. Sorry, sign the man to a multi-year deal.

Call me a hater, basher, whatever. But if Crede keeps this up, no way will the Sox pay up for him unless he takes a huge discount which I don't see happening, nor do I see KW unloading Fields when he's locked in for so little money.

Trav
04-07-2008, 07:34 PM
Crede is obviously an intricate part of this team, both defensively and offensively. Why would KW jepordize any of that, not to mention the elusive yet much lauded chemestry, if this team is hot?

fquaye149
04-07-2008, 07:34 PM
Call me a hater, basher, whatever. But if Crede keeps this up, no way will the Sox pay up for him unless he takes a huge discount which I don't see happening, nor do I see KW unloading Fields when he's locked in for so little money.

It's true. The Sox (w/ the #5...I think...payroll in baseball) are totally cheap

doublem23
04-07-2008, 07:35 PM
Emotion? Can I introduce you to the 2005 playoffs? He's proven it time and time again.

If he is healthy and a deal can be worked out, you keep Joe.

You're telling me you start a thread an hour after Joe Crede hits a grand slam in a big win on Opening Day and it's not based on emotion. Please remember this is a guy is 31 years old now, still has a suspicious back, and the Sox's best prospect is nipping at his heels.

I love the guy as much as anyone, but there's no reason to rush out and overpay him just yet.

Frater Perdurabo
04-07-2008, 07:35 PM
Uh, oh. Frater agrees with me.

Is this the beginning of the end?

:)

Actually we agree on most things here on WSI (obviously the "other" board that shall not be named is another matter :redneck), but we had some epic brawls over the CF situation in 2006 and 2007. (I'm not naming names.)
:bandance:

The Immigrant
04-07-2008, 07:35 PM
The better Crede plays now, the better our chances of getting 2 draft picks when he is inevitably overpaid by some dog**** NL team.

turners56
04-07-2008, 07:36 PM
You're telling me you start a thread an hour after Joe Crede hits a grand slam in a big win on Opening Day and it's not based on emotion. Please remember this is a guy is 31 years old now, still has a suspicious back, and the Sox's best prospect is nipping at his heels.

I love the guy as much as anyone, but there's no reason to rush out and overpay him just yet.

Crede is 29, he'll be 30 in 19 days.

It's Time
04-07-2008, 07:37 PM
You're telling me you start a thread an hour after Joe Crede hits a grand slam in a big win on Opening Day and it's not based on emotion. Please remember this is a guy is 31 years old now, still has a suspicious back, and the Sox's best prospect is nipping at his heels.

I love the guy as much as anyone, but there's no reason to rush out and overpay him just yet.

29, not 31.

doublem23
04-07-2008, 07:37 PM
Crede is 29.

:redface:

My bad, I forget that baseball-reference.com updates their pages everyday now. OK, so he'll be 30 in a few weeks. That's still the tail end of his prime years, and I'm not convinced by one week of baseball that his back won't flare up again.

:redface:

fquaye149
04-07-2008, 07:38 PM
29, not 31.

There's only one way to settle this. We cut him in half and count the rings (2005!!!!!)

It's Time
04-07-2008, 07:38 PM
There's only one way to settle this. We cut him in half and count the rings (2005!!!!!)

Na, just sign him and that's that.

Dick Allen
04-07-2008, 07:39 PM
Two words - Scott Borass

areilly
04-07-2008, 07:39 PM
It's true. The Sox (w/ the #5...I think...payroll in baseball) are totally cheap

It's not that they're totally cheap, but if Crede has a superb year he'll be looking not just for big money but for big years. I don't see that combination happening as long as Fields is still around.

TomBradley72
04-07-2008, 07:40 PM
If that's the case better to get something for him rather than nothing...the only exception would be if Crede is hitting something like .300 and we're in a tight pennant race. Other wise we got a guy who is ready to take his place.

The "something" we are after this year is a pennant and a return to the World Series. Our best chance of accomplishing that goal is with Crede at 3rd base. It's worth it, even if we lose him to FA after the World Series Parade (Part Deux) down LaSalle.

TomBradley72
04-07-2008, 07:42 PM
Unless you think the White Sox are in win it now mode, they should go with the cheaper and more durable option.

This entire roster has been designed in "win it now" mode. Otherwise we wouldn't have re-signed all these veterans: Dye, Buehrle, AJ, etc.

Tragg
04-07-2008, 07:43 PM
The "something" we are after this year is a pennant and a return to the World Series. Our best chance of accomplishing that goal is with Crede at 3rd base. It's worth it, even if we lose him to FA after the World Series Parade (Part Deux) down LaSalle.
Can't we offer him arbitration and get some draft picks? That's better than whatever we'd get if we traded him in July (and we'll only do that if we're out of it, which I doubt he will be).

Domeshot17
04-07-2008, 07:43 PM
Na, just sign him and that's that.

I hate threads like this. You put people who don't care either way and make them look like they HATE Crede.

We get it, you love him. If you were KW you would give him 15 mil a year, then go back in time and Give Rowand his 14 mil a year, and still have Crazy Carl hitting clean up and Freddy throwing lefty while his right arm heals.

Crede has had 1 good playoff run. He had most of 1 good season, but as Clutch as he is, he completely died in August and September as we blew the division. He has a fantastic Glove, one of the top 4 in the game. It still does not make him worth the 10-15 a year Boras is going to be asking. If he would sign a 4 year 28 mil deal you consider it, but 7 a year for Crede is about as high as I would go, and you know Boras is already thinking 6 years and 75 mil.

Trav
04-07-2008, 07:43 PM
The Sox don't really lose him for nothing if he did end up walking at the end of the year. Don't they get a pick? Let the season play out a bit.

fquaye149
04-07-2008, 07:44 PM
It's not that they're totally cheap, but if Crede has a superb year he'll be looking not just for big money but for big years. I don't see that combination happening as long as Fields is still around.

you're probably right--with a cheaper fields waiting in the wings

doublem23
04-07-2008, 07:46 PM
The "something" we are after this year is a pennant and a return to the World Series. Our best chance of accomplishing that goal is with Crede at 3rd base. It's worth it, even if we lose him to FA after the World Series Parade (Part Deux) down LaSalle.

I agree. Why is anyone thinking of breaking up this team in July? The Sox could have/should have won 2 of 3 from Cleveland in Cleveland and just manhandled Detroit in Detroit. Those are the 2 best teams in the Central. I know it's only 7 games, but right now it looks like the Sox will be able to hang around to the very end.

If Joe plays a great year for the Sox and turns that into a big payday somewhere else, or if we fall apart and have to dump some veterans mid-season, we have someone in the minors to cover 3B. Good position to be in.

Noneck
04-07-2008, 07:47 PM
Two words - Scott Borass
I totally agree. Borass clients don't sign in their FA year, he wants to take them on the open market after the year is over. Will the Sox even attempt to compete for Credes services on the open market? Is it worth keeping Crede this year if they know they won't compete for his services next year? What will the Sox be offered this year if he keeps playing the way he is? Until these questions are answered, this is a moot topic.

JB98
04-07-2008, 07:49 PM
Actually we agree on most things here on WSI (obviously the "other" board that shall not be named is another matter :redneck), but we had some epic brawls over the CF situation in 2006 and 2007. (I'm not naming names.)
:bandance:

I don't know. I think the Konerko brawls were more epic than the CF brawls. :cool:

Lip Man 1
04-07-2008, 07:57 PM
It's Time:

It takes two to make a signing remember... and Kenny has already been directly quoted as saying that Boras flat out rejected any talk about an extension last summer.

I'm sure Kenny would at least like to have the option of signing him but unless Joe fires his agent, he's going to go the free agent route ESPECIALLY if he has a good come-back season.

Kenny can't put a gun to Joe's head and force him to sign remember.

Lip

Billy Ashley
04-07-2008, 08:02 PM
Again, he's had a good week but he's also got several years of statistics showing that he's just not a very good hitter.

Again, he's a good ball player. So long as his defense is great. He's got a balky back and is getting older...

Why extend the guy now?

Frater Perdurabo
04-07-2008, 08:05 PM
I don't know. I think the Konerko brawls were more epic than the CF brawls. :cool:

Ohhhh! I forgot about those. Maybe I put that out of my mind entirely because I've accepted it as a fact that Paulie will be here for the duration of his contract.

Of course, before he gets 10-5 rights in a few weeks, they could trade him to the Angels for a pitcher, move Swisher to 1B, and have Anderson in CF.

:tongue:

voodoochile
04-07-2008, 08:09 PM
Provided the Sox keep winning, there will definitely come a point in time where any major changes (like trading Joe Crede) will become impossible and just plain bad for the team as a whole.

I personally don't care. I think KW made the right move in not trading Joe Crede for what he was offered and right now it's paying off in spades. You really can't argue with that.

Daver
04-07-2008, 08:09 PM
Again, he's had a good week but he's also got several years of statistics showing that he's just not a very good hitter.

Again, he's a good ball player. So long as his defense is great. He's got a balky back and is getting older...

Why extend the guy now?


There is the fact that his replacement at AAA plays third base like my ass chews gum.

JB98
04-07-2008, 08:13 PM
Ohhhh! I forgot about those. Maybe I put that out of my mind entirely because I've accepted it as a fact that Paulie will be here for the duration of his contract.

Of course, before he gets 10-5 rights in a few weeks, they could trade him to the Angels for a pitcher, move Swisher to 1B, and have Anderson in CF.

:tongue:

Dammit! Stop provoking me! We're on a five-game winning streak, and I'd like to maintain the good mood I'm in right now. :D:

Billy Ashley
04-07-2008, 08:21 PM
There is the fact that his replacement at AAA plays third base like my ass chews gum.

I agree that Fields is nowhere near the prospect many here believe he is. I got killed over her last winter for saying they should be ok with playing Crede in 08 over Fields.

That said, there's a massive difference in signing an aging injury prone glove man with a below average bat to an expensive extension rather than playing Fields or finding someone else.

TomBradley72
04-07-2008, 08:22 PM
There is the fact that his replacement at AAA plays third base like my ass chews gum.

How is it you know your level of proficiency in this particular skill? :?:

TomBradley72
04-07-2008, 08:30 PM
That said, there's a massive difference in signing an aging injury prone glove man with a below average bat to an expensive extension rather than playing Fields or finding someone else.

Not sure if I see turning 30 as a major age issue...lots of 3Bs have been productive into their mid-30's.

Injury prone? He averaged ~500 ABs/year from 2003-2006, other than the back injury (early post surgery results have been pretty solid)...he's stayed pretty healthy and has been a solid anchor at 3B.

Fields' needs to improve his defense while he's at AAA before I'm willing to concede he's the better option for the next 3-5 years.

Billy Ashley
04-07-2008, 08:39 PM
Not sure if I see turning 30 as a major age issue...lots of 3Bs have been productive into their mid-30's.

Injury prone? He averaged ~500 ABs/year from 2003-2006, other than the back injury (early post surgery results have been pretty solid)...he's stayed pretty healthy and has been a solid anchor at 3B.

Fields' needs to improve his defense while he's at AAA before I'm willing to concede he's the better option for the next 3-5 years.


Generally back injuries can come back fairly easily. Additionally, while many Third basemen have made it deep into their 30s we have to remember where Crede's value comes from. Defense. Defense tends to be one of the first skills to go. A three or four year deal would likely last longer than his excellence at third. Then you'd just have an average defender at third with a career OPS+ of 93.

veeter
04-07-2008, 08:48 PM
I love Crede and I'm going to miss him...but unless he is willing to take a hometown discount (not the one perpetrated by Mr. Boras), then I'd be willing to sign him. But for now, he should be gone by about July.
Are you nuts?

turners56
04-07-2008, 08:58 PM
Are you nuts?

I think he's saying that this team won't be in contention by July 3st or that Joe Crede will suck from now on.

Frater Perdurabo
04-07-2008, 09:13 PM
If he remains healthy and productive throughout this season, the Sox really ought to make a strong push to keep Crede. Then, Fields becomes the DH when Thome leaves, and also backs up at third and first.

RockJock07
04-07-2008, 09:27 PM
Nobody here (or very few people) "hate" Crede. A lot of people were skeptical that he could return from back surgery and be effective as he was before. That was a well founded fear as back surgery can really mess with a player. The other thing people don't like about him is that his agent is Scott Boras, and Boras is the worst agent to deal with.

Well said, I was one that was very skeptical of his ability to come back and return to form. Crede looked bad in the first two games, but has been very good of late.

As far as his contract is concerned, I'm not willing to overpay for joe. Yes he is clutch but the sox are in a no win position here. Probably the best thing to do is let josh fields DH after this year.

JoeClutch24
04-07-2008, 09:47 PM
Crede still rocks!

HomeFish
04-07-2008, 10:08 PM
During Game 5 of the 2005 ALCS, in a moment of bliss, I took a solemn vow never to call Crede a bum again.

So I won't call him a bum. But I will say that hitting a grand slam tonight does not suddenly make him into a solid offensive third baseman.

turners56
04-07-2008, 10:12 PM
If he remains healthy and productive throughout this season, the Sox really ought to make a strong push to keep Crede. Then, Fields becomes the DH when Thome leaves, and also backs up at third and first.

That's exactly what I said before, I think that would be the plan if Crede has a good 2008 season.

Rocky Soprano
04-07-2008, 10:24 PM
I Love Joe Crede!
:bandance:

kittle42
04-07-2008, 10:32 PM
Yes, another one of these!

Hyperbole!

2005!

Wild statements unsupported by reality!

Gross overgeneralizations based on 7 games!

Call me when Baltimore wins the East and Xavier Nady has 80 homers.

Brian26
04-07-2008, 10:37 PM
Call me when Baltimore wins the East and Xavier Nady has 80 homers.

That's nothing. Chris Shelton was on pace to hit 90 hrs in 2005. :D:

SoxxoS
04-07-2008, 10:50 PM
I wouldnt be opposed to trading Konerko for some pitching or a stud 2B prospect and putting Fields at first. Why couldnt he play first? He would be more than solid there, no?

doublem23
04-07-2008, 11:21 PM
I wouldnt be opposed to trading Konerko for some pitching or a stud 2B prospect and putting Fields at first. Why couldnt he play first? He would be more than solid there, no?

I doubt anyone worth our time will become available before Paul gets his 10/5.

jabrch
04-07-2008, 11:25 PM
The Sox are in a position where they have no incentive anymore to rush into a move. By not taking an inferior deal before the season, if Crede continues to play well, KW left himself with options.

- Trade him for decent value

- Resign him

- Keep him and let him walk, possibly getting one pick in compensation if he has a good enough year

Either way - I'm less worried about 09 than 08. With Crede healthy playing 3B and hitting well, we are a contender. I'm not sure we'd have incentive enough to move him.

ksimpson14
04-08-2008, 12:27 AM
There have been plenty of haters. If you weren't one, that's fine, but no need to speak for the others. From Game 1, scrutinizing every at bat, sarcastic comments about 'ohhh, how clutch', and comparisons to Fields, and being pissed that he's only on the team for financial reasons, not that he could help the team, etc etc etc. Then there's all the posts about how average/bad of a player he is since he gives no Moneyball guy a hard on. Hell though, these are probably the guys who booed him after he came up.

Like I said to those posts, statgeeks probably won't like him, but he brings a great glove, can contribute with the bat, and won't crap his pants in a big spot. A very solid player to have on your team.

Joe Crede supporter since day 1 :smile:

Billy Ashley
04-08-2008, 12:40 AM
There have been plenty of haters. If you weren't one, that's fine, but no need to speak for the others. From Game 1, scrutinizing every at bat, sarcastic comments about 'ohhh, how clutch', and comparisons to Fields, and being pissed that he's only on the team for financial reasons, not that he could help the team, etc etc etc. Then there's all the posts about how average/bad of a player he is since he gives no Moneyball guy a hard on. Hell though, these are probably the guys who booed him after he came up.

Like I said to those posts, statgeeks probably won't like him, but he brings a great glove, can contribute with the bat, and won't crap his pants in a big spot. A very solid player to have on your team.

Joe Crede supporter since day 1 :smile:

I just don't get the stat hate on this website. What's wrong with trying to study something you love?

As for defense, anyone who actually cares for statistics would tell you that defense is likely the least understood and most important aspect of the game. We still have people arguing over who is the better fielder using metrics like FP% for goodness sakes.

Defense helps in 2 ways, it one saves runs allowed and two saves work needed to be done by the pitcher. That's got a ton of value and if someone is ready to dismiss Crede as a bad player, then they are ignoring one part of the game that he excelled at for much of his career.

That said, he's not a good hitter. Talk about clutch all you want but he's still a well below average hitter playing a position that typically fields decent to good hitters. He is a hacker and will suck up outs at rates similar to hitters like Jay Gibbons.

The key difference of course being that Crede can still be an asset, should his defense not decline. However, when talking about an extension, is that a bet you wanna make?

sullythered
04-08-2008, 12:45 AM
We have five wins. Joe Crede has four game winning RBI's. Game. Over.

rdivaldi
04-08-2008, 12:48 AM
Who is Crede's agent again?

:borass:

"Hometown discount? Signing an extension without going to free agency? I know not of these things..."

kittle42
04-08-2008, 02:54 AM
I just don't get the stat hate on this website. What's wrong with trying to study something you love?

As for defense, anyone who actually cares for statistics would tell you that defense is likely the least understood and most important aspect of the game. We still have people arguing over who is the better fielder using metrics like FP% for goodness sakes.

Defense helps in 2 ways, it one saves runs allowed and two saves work needed to be done by the pitcher. That's got a ton of value and if someone is ready to dismiss Crede as a bad player, then they are ignoring one part of the game that he excelled at for much of his career.

That said, he's not a good hitter. Talk about clutch all you want but he's still a well below average hitter playing a position that typically fields decent to good hitters. He is a hacker and will suck up outs at rates similar to hitters like Jay Gibbons.

The key difference of course being that Crede can still be an asset, should his defense not decline. However, when talking about an extension, is that a bet you wanna make?

Great post! Very well reasoned.

kittle42
04-08-2008, 02:55 AM
We have five wins. Joe Crede has four game winning RBI's. Game. Over.

That's pretty shortsighted.

kufram
04-08-2008, 03:45 AM
My first post on my first forum, sigh. Can't we afford big bucks for Crede? Fields is proven and worth money. Anderson is of value and certainly proven defensively. Letting them go to cut payroll (we have back-ups in place) and adding $$ to the pot might get a deal done. Crede is too valuable in the clutch to lose..... and I'm not necessarily a Crede lover. I think he really wants to stay. It just makes sense to me.

rdivaldi
04-08-2008, 07:57 AM
My first post on my first forum, sigh. Can't we afford big bucks for Crede? Fields is proven and worth money. Anderson is of value and certainly proven defensively. Letting them go to cut payroll (we have back-ups in place) and adding $$ to the pot might get a deal done. Crede is too valuable in the clutch to lose..... and I'm not necessarily a Crede lover. I think he really wants to stay. It just makes sense to me.

:borass:

Entering free agency makes sense to me...

palehozenychicty
04-08-2008, 10:15 AM
Time and time again=2005 playoffs?

Crede's a great defensive 3B, and he's definitely had his clutch moments, but he's not exactly been mr. Consistent with the bat.

Let's cool our ****ing jets before we start ripping up confetti for the Joe Crede parade


Exactly. I like his intangibles, but he had a terrible AB before the granny. He didn't even take a pitch with two men on! If he can keep it up, great, then we can sell high. History tells that he won't offensively.

Carolina Kenny
04-08-2008, 02:06 PM
Generally back injuries can come back fairly easily. Additionally, while many Third basemen have made it deep into their 30s we have to remember where Crede's value comes from. Defense. Defense tends to be one of the first skills to go. A three or four year deal would likely last longer than his excellence at third. Then you'd just have an average defender at third with a career OPS+ of 93.


"Defense tends to be one of the first skills to go."

I disagree, not at Third Base. For his next 3-5 year contract and unless he is injured, his defense should remain at a high level. You have no basis at all for your statement and it sounds like you just pulled it out of your--thin air.

ode to veeck
04-08-2008, 02:11 PM
"Defense tends to be one of the first skills to go."

I disagree, not at Third Base. For his next 3-5 year contract and unless he is injured, his defense should remain at a high level. You have no basis at all for your statement and it sounds like you just pulled it out of your--thin air.

plus we have no other natural 3rd baseman, plain and simple, and Joe's a vaccumn cleaner at the hot corner

#1swisher
04-08-2008, 02:11 PM
There have been plenty of haters. If you weren't one, that's fine, but no need to speak for the others. From Game 1, scrutinizing every at bat, sarcastic comments about 'ohhh, how clutch', and comparisons to Fields, and being pissed that he's only on the team for financial reasons, not that he could help the team, etc etc etc. Then there's all the posts about how average/bad of a player he is since he gives no Moneyball guy a hard on. Hell though, these are probably the guys who booed him after he came up.

Like I said to those posts, statgeeks probably won't like him, but he brings a great glove, can contribute with the bat, and won't crap his pants in a big spot. A very solid player to have on your team.

Joe Crede supporter since day 1 :smile:

couldn't of said it better

TDog
04-08-2008, 03:18 PM
I just don't get the stat hate on this website. What's wrong with trying to study something you love? ...

It isn't that I hate stats. It's that people rely on them to tell them who is the better team. People use stats to tell you that the White Sox weren't the best team in 2005. The only stat that matters is the W/L column. If you're playing a computer game, stats are used to determine the probability of success of of players in individual situations. But in the very human game of real-life baseball, past performance doesn't guarantee future success. Baseball is a human game.

People will even use stats to question Joe Crede's value to the White Sox.

hawkjt
04-08-2008, 03:53 PM
buy the notion that Joe is not a good offensive producer. Since he came back from the wrist injury in late august of 05...he hit at a .330+ clip the last 40 games that year...then in 06 won the silver bat at third...07 I throw out completely with the injury. And now this year he is again producing.

He and Walk found something in 05 when he was injured and since then he has had great success fighting off outside pitches with that awkward excuse me swing and became a good contact hitter.

I have always supported Joe and hope somehow he stays at 3rd for the sox for another 5 years. Reminds me of Craig Nettles. Clutch,and great fielder.

kittle42
04-08-2008, 04:00 PM
buy the notion that Joe is not a good offensive producer. Since he came back from the wrist injury in late august of 05...he hit at a .330+ clip the last 40 games that year...then in 06 won the silver bat at third...07 I throw out completely with the injury. And now this year he is again producing.

He and Walk found something in 05 when he was injured and since then he has had great success fighting off outside pitches with that awkward excuse me swing and became a good contact hitter.

I have always supported Joe and hope somehow he stays at 3rd for the sox for another 5 years. Reminds me of Craig Nettles. Clutch,and great fielder.

From baseball-reference.com: most similar hitters:

Fernando Tatis (http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/tatisfe01.shtml) (959)
Hank Blalock (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/blaloha01.shtml) (950)
Russ Davis (http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/davisru01.shtml) (949)
Pedro Feliz (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/felizpe01.shtml) (947)
Casey Blake (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/blakeca01.shtml) (943)
Morgan Ensberg (http://www.baseball-reference.com/e/ensbemo01.shtml) (937)
Mike Blowers (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/blowemi01.shtml) (932)
Robert Fick (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/fickro01.shtml) (931)
Sean Berry (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/berryse01.shtml) (931)
Ray Jablonski (http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jablora01.shtml) (930)Oh, boy!

spiffie
04-08-2008, 04:11 PM
It isn't that I hate stats. It's that people rely on them to tell them who is the better team. People use stats to tell you that the White Sox weren't the best team in 2005. The only stat that matters is the W/L column. If you're playing a computer game, stats are used to determine the probability of success of of players in individual situations. But in the very human game of real-life baseball, past performance doesn't guarantee future success. Baseball is a human game.

People will even use stats to question Joe Crede's value to the White Sox.
This is because people will use selective memory to greatly inflate Joe Crede's value to the White Sox.

Baseball fans are a lot like poker players. If they play for four hours in an evening, and they win 10 hands they mathematically shouldn't have won, and they lose 2 hands they mathematically should have won, they will tell you about what a horribly unlucky night they had. They will tell you in detail exactly what sort of terrible beat they took. They will tell you precisely what percentage of the time they are supposed to win that hand.

That's kind of what the Crede discussion, and the whole "clutch hitting" debate comes back to. We all remember the night Joe hit the huge HR against the Indians in 2005. We will likely all remember the grand slam yesterday. We remember Joe's great moments, and he has been blessed to have some huge hits in some huge situations.

But 2 months from now when we have this discussion we won't remember all the guys he left on base in the opener. We won't remember any of the dozens and dozens of times in close and late situations that Joe failed. Because he has had a couple of huge and much-loved hits, we will say "Joe's clutch!"

So we look to stats. Not because the game is played on paper, or because we want to have special time with Billy Beane. But because we, in our love and passion for the White Sox, have very flawed, very human memories. So we look at 2006, Joe Crede's very best year by any offensive measure. And we see that Captain Clutch, the man we all want at the plate when the game is on the line, did the following

In close and late game situations (Late & Close are PA in the 7th or later with the batting team tied, ahead by one, or the tying run at least on deck.) Joe had 98 PA's. He hit 237/276/462. To put this in perspective, in the same sort of situations Rob Mackowiak had 50 PA's that year, where he hit 333/396/524. Yet who here would have said "Yes, give me Mackowiak in the clutch over Crede."

Joe Crede is a decent/good hitter when healthy. I don't mind Joe up in an important situation because of that. But so far, over the course of 1000's of AB's, not just the 5-10 that we remember fondly, Joe hasn't shown himself to be extra-special or somehow gifted beyond the norm when it comes to hitting in "clutch" situations. That doesn't demean the importance of his hits. We will speak fondly of Joe Crede to our children and grandchildren. But Joe Crede's value, whatever it might be, comes from his body of work, compiled over 1000's of times at the plate, not over the moments we have bronzed inside our conciousness. And sometimes it takes the clarity of a number, an impersonal number, unswayed by the passion of a lifetime of supporting an oft-frustrating franchise, to remind us that things are not always as we remember them to be.

TDog
04-08-2008, 04:17 PM
...

I have always supported Joe and hope somehow he stays at 3rd for the sox for another 5 years. Reminds me of Craig Nettles. Clutch,and great fielder.

Your comparison is interesting. I saw a lot of Graig Nettles late in his career with the Padres when he wasn't a very good hitter. I knew a few sportswriters who covered him, and they told me that he was only playing because he needed the money, which they related shaking their heads and I couldn't understand because the man had been making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to play baseball for the Yankees. He turned 40 that summer and should have been comfortably retired.

The thing is, he was a big part of that 1984 Padres team that went to the World Series. He hit only .228 that year (I just looked it up), but he had some big hits and played great defense.

slowlearner
04-08-2008, 04:17 PM
This is because people will use selective memory to greatly inflate Joe Crede's value to the White Sox.

Baseball fans are a lot like poker players. If they play for four hours in an evening, and they win 10 hands they mathematically shouldn't have won, and they lose 2 hands they mathematically should have won, they will tell you about what a horribly unlucky night they had. They will tell you in detail exactly what sort of terrible beat they took. They will tell you precisely what percentage of the time they are supposed to win that hand.

That's kind of what the Crede discussion, and the whole "clutch hitting" debate comes back to. We all remember the night Joe hit the huge HR against the Indians in 2005. We will likely all remember the grand slam yesterday. We remember Joe's great moments, and he has been blessed to have some huge hits in some huge situations.

But 2 months from now when we have this discussion we won't remember all the guys he left on base in the opener. We won't remember any of the dozens and dozens of times in close and late situations that Joe failed. Because he has had a couple of huge and much-loved hits, we will say "Joe's clutch!"

So we look to stats. Not because the game is played on paper, or because we want to have special time with Billy Beane. But because we, in our love and passion for the White Sox, have very flawed, very human memories. So we look at 2006, Joe Crede's very best year by any offensive measure. And we see that Captain Clutch, the man we all want at the plate when the game is on the line, did the following

In close and late game situations (Late & Close are PA in the 7th or later with the batting team tied, ahead by one, or the tying run at least on deck.) Joe had 98 PA's. He hit 237/276/462. To put this in perspective, in the same sort of situations Rob Mackowiak had 50 PA's that year, where he hit 333/396/524. Yet who here would have said "Yes, give me Mackowiak in the clutch over Crede."

Joe Crede is a decent/good hitter when healthy. I don't mind Joe up in an important situation because of that. But so far, over the course of 1000's of AB's, not just the 5-10 that we remember fondly, Joe hasn't shown himself to be extra-special or somehow gifted beyond the norm when it comes to hitting in "clutch" situations. That doesn't demean the importance of his hits. We will speak fondly of Joe Crede to our children and grandchildren. But Joe Crede's value, whatever it might be, comes from his body of work, compiled over 1000's of times at the plate, not over the moments we have bronzed inside our conciousness. And sometimes it takes the clarity of a number, an impersonal number, unswayed by the passion of a lifetime of supporting an oft-frustrating franchise, to remind us that things are not always as we remember them to be.

Amen.

goon
04-08-2008, 04:20 PM
From baseball-reference.com: most similar hitters:
Fernando Tatis (http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/tatisfe01.shtml) (959)
Hank Blalock (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/blaloha01.shtml) (950)
Russ Davis (http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/davisru01.shtml) (949)
Pedro Feliz (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/felizpe01.shtml) (947)
Casey Blake (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/blakeca01.shtml) (943)
Morgan Ensberg (http://www.baseball-reference.com/e/ensbemo01.shtml) (937)
Mike Blowers (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/blowemi01.shtml) (932)
Robert Fick (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/fickro01.shtml) (931)
Sean Berry (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/berryse01.shtml) (931)
Ray Jablonski (http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jablora01.shtml) (930)Oh, boy!

You're taking his entire career and making one generalized statement on who he is as a player. He had some trouble at the plate in 2004 and was obviously injured in 2007, I don't think it's fair to hold those stats against him.

Joe Crede's actual offensive value is somewhere in the vicinity of what he did in 2003, 2005, 2006. He's not going to get onbase a lot, definitely not going to walk a lot, but will put up a BA between .260-.280 and hit anywhere from 25-30+ Home Runs... add to that his fantastic glove, has really become a decent hitter in the past few seasons with Runner's on-base and RISP. He has improved at the plate, no denying it.

If you can sign him to a 4 year deal without getting absolutely robbed, you do it. That is if he can still do what he does best, play defense. We already have a guy in AAA who can hit better, but can't field worth ****.

slowlearner
04-08-2008, 04:26 PM
A huge consideration here, much as some may hate to admit it, is cash. Is Crede's performance that much better than what could logically be expected from Fields to justify paying (at the very least) ten times more for it? My guess is that the answer to that question is a resounding no.

In Fields you'll get 4-6 more years of cost-controlled production. In the process, you'll save boatloads of money you can use to lock up another frontline starter or fix other holes that may pop up.

I like Joe as much as the next fan, but the better long-term move is to let him go.

TDog
04-08-2008, 04:41 PM
A huge consideration here, much as some may hate to admit it, is cash. Is Crede's performance that much better than what could logically be expected from Fields to justify paying (at the very least) ten times more for it? My guess is that the answer to that question is a resounding no.

In Fields you'll get 4-6 more years of cost-controlled production. In the process, you'll save boatloads of money you can use to lock up another frontline starter or fix other holes that may pop up.

I like Joe as much as the next fan, but the better long-term move is to let him go.

I consider the cash consideration irrelevant because I am only looking at this season, in which I think the White Sox can be successful. I have been expecting and continue to expect a big season from Joe Crede. The fact that Joe Crede could hit a contract jackpot after the year will provide him with additional incentive to perform well and would probably assure that another team overpays him. I am only looking at the season I think the season the White Sox will get out of Crede because I want to win this year.

If Crede walks or he is traded before he has a chance to walk, the Sox next option will be to put Josh Fields at third. I certainly don't want to see that this year. Ideally the Sox should wait until Fields learns to play third base or trade for someone who can play third base. I don't see the Sox doing well with Fields at third, and, for that matter, I think they could find much better hitters to DH.

soxrme
04-08-2008, 04:52 PM
Learn to deal with Boras. All these players make too much, and contracts that seem huge are surpassed in 1-2 years. Joe Crede is flat out a good player, move Fields to 1st base.

slowlearner
04-08-2008, 04:55 PM
I consider the cash consideration irrelevant because I am only looking at this season, in which I think the White Sox can be successful. I have been expecting and continue to expect a big season from Joe Crede. The fact that Joe Crede could hit a contract jackpot after the year will provide him with additional incentive to perform well and would probably assure that another team overpays him. I am only looking at the season I think the season the White Sox will get out of Crede because I want to win this year.

If Crede walks or he is traded before he has a chance to walk, the Sox next option will be to put Josh Fields at third. I certainly don't want to see that this year. Ideally the Sox should wait until Fields learns to play third base or trade for someone who can play third base. I don't see the Sox doing well with Fields at third, and, for that matter, I think they could find much better hitters to DH.

I don't think keeping Crede for the season is a bad move. In fact, I think it's probably a good move. But after the season, regardless of what happens, it's time to cut ties and move on.

My only concern is hampering Fields big league development. I have no idea how another year in AAA will effect him, but as long as you're not compromising his development by keeping him in minors for the year, I don't see a downside to preserving the status quo .

We've all seen what happens when teams hang on to veteran players beyond their prime. I'm specifically thinking of the Giants over the last few years.

It's Time
04-08-2008, 04:55 PM
I find it hilarious that many here want to see Crede replaced with a guy who has a brick glove at the hot corner. :o::?:

guillen4life13
04-08-2008, 05:03 PM
I consider the cash consideration irrelevant because I am only looking at this season, in which I think the White Sox can be successful. I have been expecting and continue to expect a big season from Joe Crede. The fact that Joe Crede could hit a contract jackpot after the year will provide him with additional incentive to perform well and would probably assure that another team overpays him. I am only looking at the season I think the season the White Sox will get out of Crede because I want to win this year.

If Crede walks or he is traded before he has a chance to walk, the Sox next option will be to put Josh Fields at third. I certainly don't want to see that this year. Ideally the Sox should wait until Fields learns to play third base or trade for someone who can play third base. I don't see the Sox doing well with Fields at third, and, for that matter, I think they could find much better hitters to DH.

Exactly how long has Fields been playing 3B? I don't know, but if he's already about to break in to the majors and has played 3B his whole minor league career, I don't see why he would suddenly get better on defense.

Josh Fields is another 1B/DH. He will hit like one and he fields like one. So, when Thome leaves, I say Fields gets put in either 1B or DH, with Konerko filling the other slot. However, KW/Ozzie will put him in at 3B before that happens. The Sox have had decent success converting 3B's into 1B's. That personifies the current 1B.

I don't see Crede as the long term solution at 3B. His agent has already made it quite clear that Joe will test free agency. The question is: how much will the other teams offer? It all depends on his performance this season. If he's really good (2006-like), then people will come knocking and his value will inflate out of Sox budgets, especially considering there is an adequate replacement waiting in the wings. If he's not so good, then people will go running (Sox possibly included) and Crede's value will take a huge dive. Either way, Crede is a member of another team come March '09.

credefan24
04-08-2008, 06:10 PM
Hopefully his back holds up. That would be great. Maybe the Sox are just showcasing him for a trade? Who knows. I'm just enjoying the season.

Lip Man 1
04-08-2008, 06:17 PM
T-Dog:

Very well played response to Ashley on stats.

I don't "hate" stats either, they play a useful part in MLB BUT I hate the "attitude" of some of these 'know-it-all's' (and that includes the idiots at BP) who make all these claims... then when things blow up in their faces (i.e. the Twins winning three straight divisional titles, the Sox winning it all in 05, the Astros making the playoffs despite being outscored for the season ect...) they don't even have the gonads to say, 'hey we were wrong.'

It's always some BS excuse, something that caused the numbers to be changed, switched, convoluted and so forth.

Just admit that you folks aren't God and can't predict the future with 100% accuracy and I'll be fine. Admit that baseball is a game played by humans and you simply can't quantify everything that goes on and I'm cool.

But I wouldn't hold my breath that these egomaniacs, some of whom never played the game at any type of reasonably competitive level will ever do that.

Lip

jabrch
04-08-2008, 06:26 PM
It isn't that I hate stats. It's that people rely on them to tell them who is the better team.

Exactly - it is not the USE of stats. It is the chronic MISUSE AND ABUSE of statistics that is hated.

jabrch
04-08-2008, 06:28 PM
Given this...Exactly how long has Fields been playing 3B? I don't know


How the **** do you conclude this...


Josh Fields is another 1B/DH.


You probably need to see a lot more of Fields to draw that conclusion.

Daver
04-08-2008, 06:39 PM
Given this...


How the **** do you conclude this...





You probably need to see a lot more of Fields to draw that conclusion.

I don't.

He's a fine fit for first.

EndemicSox
04-08-2008, 06:45 PM
This is because people will use selective memory to greatly inflate Joe Crede's value to the White Sox.

Baseball fans are a lot like poker players. If they play for four hours in an evening, and they win 10 hands they mathematically shouldn't have won, and they lose 2 hands they mathematically should have won, they will tell you about what a horribly unlucky night they had. They will tell you in detail exactly what sort of terrible beat they took. They will tell you precisely what percentage of the time they are supposed to win that hand.

That's kind of what the Crede discussion, and the whole "clutch hitting" debate comes back to. We all remember the night Joe hit the huge HR against the Indians in 2005. We will likely all remember the grand slam yesterday. We remember Joe's great moments, and he has been blessed to have some huge hits in some huge situations.

But 2 months from now when we have this discussion we won't remember all the guys he left on base in the opener. We won't remember any of the dozens and dozens of times in close and late situations that Joe failed. Because he has had a couple of huge and much-loved hits, we will say "Joe's clutch!"

So we look to stats. Not because the game is played on paper, or because we want to have special time with Billy Beane. But because we, in our love and passion for the White Sox, have very flawed, very human memories. So we look at 2006, Joe Crede's very best year by any offensive measure. And we see that Captain Clutch, the man we all want at the plate when the game is on the line, did the following

In close and late game situations (Late & Close are PA in the 7th or later with the batting team tied, ahead by one, or the tying run at least on deck.) Joe had 98 PA's. He hit 237/276/462. To put this in perspective, in the same sort of situations Rob Mackowiak had 50 PA's that year, where he hit 333/396/524. Yet who here would have said "Yes, give me Mackowiak in the clutch over Crede."

Joe Crede is a decent/good hitter when healthy. I don't mind Joe up in an important situation because of that. But so far, over the course of 1000's of AB's, not just the 5-10 that we remember fondly, Joe hasn't shown himself to be extra-special or somehow gifted beyond the norm when it comes to hitting in "clutch" situations. That doesn't demean the importance of his hits. We will speak fondly of Joe Crede to our children and grandchildren. But Joe Crede's value, whatever it might be, comes from his body of work, compiled over 1000's of times at the plate, not over the moments we have bronzed inside our conciousness. And sometimes it takes the clarity of a number, an impersonal number, unswayed by the passion of a lifetime of supporting an oft-frustrating franchise, to remind us that things are not always as we remember them to be.

This post should be stickyed on the front page. Excellent, excellent post...

I love watching Joe Crede play baseball, his glove-work leaves this former 3B in awe. I'm hoping the WhiteSox can afford to keep him around, but I'm not holding my breath. Joe Crede is a good player, but he 'aint worth the type of money Boras has tossed around, not even close...as he simply isn't much of a hitter, solid power, no doubt, but his poor OBP will always be his downfall.

Josh Fields has nothing to do with this belief, he projects, imo, to be very similar to Joe Crede at the plate. I don't like his glove, and think the organization should have moved him to 1B two years ago.

cards press box
04-08-2008, 06:47 PM
Crede is an integral part of the 2008 White Sox. The Sox look like they'll be competitive all season and should have a legitimate chance to make the playoffs. Thus, I don't see the Sox trading Crede at all this season unless: (a) Fields shows a marked improvement defensively at 3B and (b) the Giants or Dodgers overwhelm the Sox with a trade offer. Frankly, I don't see the Giants even making an offer, as they have multiple holes to fill and are far behind the top teams in their division.

The Dodgers will likely battle with the Diamondbacks all season and may be tempted to make an offer. At this point, however, it's hard for me to imagine what the Dodgers could offer to pry Crede loose from the Sox.

Dan Mega
04-08-2008, 06:50 PM
I don't.

He's a fine fit for first.

I wouldn't mind seeing him at first if they traded PK to restock the farm.

EndemicSox
04-08-2008, 06:58 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing him at first if they traded PK to restock the farm.


I would love to see this...but wouldn't be too upset if it didn't happen. I think he could fetch a pretty penny, but the window is closing with each passing day.

guillen4life13
04-08-2008, 08:03 PM
Given this...


How the **** do you conclude this...





You probably need to see a lot more of Fields to draw that conclusion.

He's at least been playing since college, as I've read some horror stories about the defensive philosophy they had for him at OkSU. Something along the lines of "just make sure it stays in front of you... you don't need to cleanly field it."

I'm sure they tried to rectify that in his minor league stint but he's still not that great a fielder. He hits like a 1B type player and plate patience is a lot more likely thing to learn than stellar defense at the hot corner.

Hence, I see him being a better fit at 1B or DH (though I think it's a crime to put a player as young as Fields in a DH role and it would be better for PK to DH to save his hips) if the Sox can find a good alternative at 3B.

However, I still see Fields being a better long term 3B fix than Crede. They'll but up similar batting and on base averages, but Fields' SLG will be far higher. Thus, RBI and homers will increase. And who's to say Fields won't have a decently calm demeanor in clutch situations? We didn't know Crede had it until he showed it. Fields hasn't had that chance.

In a perfect world, Crede resigns with a 3-yr, $22-26M deal.

Sidetrack: I really wish this team had another hitting instructor--Walker isn't the best guy to teach a young player how to draw a walk judging by his tenure here. The guys who seem to draw walks are the newcomers who haven't had much time with him yet.

Soxfest
04-08-2008, 08:06 PM
I hope JC keeps it up so his trade value is high...........Fields is ready nothing has changed!

slowlearner
04-08-2008, 08:36 PM
A bit of perspective: Fields' career big league fielding percentage at 3B is .961 (through 85 games). Crede's is .967 (through 701 games).

That's a difference of about 3 errors per season folks.

I know it's a really small sample size for Fields' numbers, but basically if he plays the exact same level of defense he played last year in future years, he'll make about three more errors a year than Crede would. Three.

Fields' minor league fielding percentage is atrocious (.925 through 394 games), but then again, so was Joe's (.938 through 424 games).

No doubt, Crede's better with the glove, but all in all, he's not that much better.

gogosox16
04-08-2008, 08:39 PM
A bit of perspective: Fields' career big league fielding percentage at 3B is .961 (through 85 games). Crede's is .967 (through 701 games).

That's a difference of about 3 errors per season folks.

I know it's a really small sample size for Fields' numbers, but basically if he plays the exact same level of defense he played last year in future years, he'll make about three more errors a year than Crede would. Three.

Fields' minor league fielding percentage is atrocious (.925 through 394 games), but then again, so was Joe's (.938 through 424 games).

No doubt, Crede's better with the glove, but all in all, he's not that much better.
The only reason that the errors are so close is that Joe is able to get to more balls than Josh can and which cause a better likely hood of something to happen more often....Josh is more of a stationary 3rd basemen with very limited range, while Joe has a very big range which cause better likely hood of an error but also more help for the pitcher

Daver
04-08-2008, 08:40 PM
A bit of perspective: Fields' career big league fielding percentage at 3B is .961 (through 85 games). Crede's is .967 (through 701 games).

That's a difference of about 3 errors per season folks.

I know it's a really small sample size for Fields' numbers, but basically if he plays the exact same level of defense he played last year in future years, he'll make about three more errors a year than Crede would. Three.

Fields' minor league fielding percentage is atrocious (.925 through 394 games), but then again, so was Joe's (.938 through 424 games).

No doubt, Crede's better with the glove, but all in all, he's not that much better.

Fielding percentage?

Do you actually watch baseball games?

I don't think you do, and if so you have problems I can't help you with.

JB98
04-08-2008, 08:50 PM
A bit of perspective: Fields' career big league fielding percentage at 3B is .961 (through 85 games). Crede's is .967 (through 701 games).

That's a difference of about 3 errors per season folks.

I know it's a really small sample size for Fields' numbers, but basically if he plays the exact same level of defense he played last year in future years, he'll make about three more errors a year than Crede would. Three.

Fields' minor league fielding percentage is atrocious (.925 through 394 games), but then again, so was Joe's (.938 through 424 games).

No doubt, Crede's better with the glove, but all in all, he's not that much better.

The difference between Crede and Fields defensively is night and day.

slowlearner
04-08-2008, 08:50 PM
The only reason that the errors are so close is that Joe is able to get to more balls than Josh can and which cause a better likely hood of something to happen more often....Josh is more of a stationary 3rd basemen with very limited range, while Joe has a very big range which cause better likely hood of an error but also more help for the pitcher

I know FP is a flawed stat, but Fields (believe it or not) actually has a better career range factor than Crede does in the big leagues (2.62 to 2.59). Though for all practical purposes they're identical.

That said, Crede's minor league range factor is much, much better than Fields' (2.63 v. 1.99).

Again, I'm not saying Fields is Crede's equal with the glove, he's not, just that the gap probably isn't as wide as it might appear at times.

JB98
04-08-2008, 08:53 PM
I know FP is a flawed stat, but Fields (believe it or not) actually has a better career range factor than Crede does in the big leagues (2.62 to 2.59). Though for all practical purposes they're identical.

That said, Crede's minor league range factor is much, much better than Fields' (2.63 v. 1.99).

Again, I'm not saying Fields is Crede's equal with the glove, he's not, just that the gap probably isn't as wide as it might appear at times.

There is no stat that measures instincts. And Crede's instincts at third are far, far superior to Fields. There were base hits to left field last year where Fields never even moved. Many of them were plays that Crede makes.

There really isn't any stat that accurately measures fielding ability.

Frontman
04-08-2008, 08:54 PM
Guys;

The Sox are 5-2 with Crede on the roster, Fields in the minors. Worry about what to do with Crede when the time comes. Let's ride this coaster until they kick us off!!!

Where are you these days? :D:

Mr. Clutch and sign him to a 3 year deal if his back is alright. NO ONE is more clutch then him, NO ONE.

Why is it that this question keeps coming up? Boras has said Joe will test the FA market. Stop acting as if its because the Sox have never offered him a long term deal. They have.

slowlearner
04-08-2008, 09:02 PM
Fielding percentage?

Do you actually watch baseball games?

I don't think you do, and if so you have problems I can't help you with.

I actually do watch baseball games, as much as I can at least. And if you're insinuating that when I do watch baseball games I miss things or that I don't have a perfect eye for baseball, frankly, you're correct. Thing is, I imagine very, very few people (if any) actually do. That's why stats are really useful in helping to analyze how good a baseball player is at playing baseball.

I'm not trying to piss anyone off or anything, nor am I saying that stats are the absolute be all and end all. They're not. They're a tool. Just like your eyes are. What's more, defensive stats are notoriously behind the times and underdeveloped. That's why I take them with a grain of salt.

I just think there is a tendency to over exaggerate the differences in defensive abilities between players more than other areas of the game. And I think what stats we do have on defensive ability (flawed as they are) tend to support that theory.

That's all.

Daver
04-08-2008, 09:45 PM
I actually do watch baseball games, as much as I can at least. And if you're insinuating that when I do watch baseball games I miss things or that I don't have a perfect eye for baseball, frankly, you're correct. Thing is, I imagine very, very few people (if any) actually do. That's why stats are really useful in helping to analyze how good a baseball player is at playing baseball.

I'm not trying to piss anyone off or anything, nor am I saying that stats are the absolute be all and end all. They're not. They're a tool. Just like your eyes are. What's more, defensive stats are notoriously behind the times and underdeveloped. That's why I take them with a grain of salt.

I just think there is a tendency to over exaggerate the differences in defensive abilities between players more than other areas of the game. And I think what stats we do have on defensive ability (flawed as they are) tend to support that theory.

That's all.

Defensive stats lie more than any other stat that is tracked, and this includes the downright stupidly useless stats of the save and the hold for pitchers. By the numbers Royce Clayton is the best SS that ever wore a White Sox uniform, when in reality he sucked so bad he created his own personal vacuum.

Defensive stats do not have the capacity to give you range, and don't even mention range factor as it measures exactly nothing, reaction time, reflexes, throwing ability, and pure instinct.

It doesn't take a genius to notice that Carlos Quentin can play baseball well and Jerry Owens can't.

FedEx227
04-08-2008, 09:48 PM
Fielding percentage?

Do you actually watch baseball games?

I don't think you do, and if so you have problems I can't help you with.

Yes, fielding percentage is probably THE WORST way to judge one fielder from another.

I always use the analogy. If I stand out in LF and only grab balls that are in my reach and let the rest drop in front of me, roll by me, whatever... I have a 1.000 Fielding Percentage.

You shouldn't have your aggressiveness hurt your ability, or your laziness HELP your stat, that's just a joke.

If you absolutely must use stats Zone Rating and Range Factor aren't bad, but they are still nowhere near as effective as just watching games over the period of the season critically.

Zone Rating
Fields: .724
Crede: .781

It may not seem like much, but the deviation is not a whole lot, so a .06 difference is HUGE.

All you need to know is Miguel Cabrera, largely regarded as one of the worst 3B in the league has a Zone Rating of .737.

I've always been in favor of Fields over Crede for a number of reasons, mainly financial and long-term, but you cannot seriously justify that Fields is equal or even on the same level of 3B defense that Crede is, because you'd be wrong, very very wrong.

slowlearner
04-08-2008, 10:33 PM
First off, I never said Fields is an equal or better fielder than Crede. Again, he's not. I just wonder if (1) the difference is as large as is typically presumed and/or stated, and (2) putting offensive production aside for a moment, whether the difference in fielding ability between the two justifies attempting to resign Crede (at what I'm figuring, conservatively, to be at least ten times the salary) as opposed to letting him walk and going with Fields.

Personally, I doubt it's worth the price.

Daver
04-08-2008, 10:38 PM
First off, I never said Fields is an equal or better fielder than Crede. Again, he's not. I just wonder if (1) the difference is as large as is typically presumed and/or stated, and (2) putting offensive production aside for a moment, whether the difference in fielding ability between the two justifies attempting to resign Crede (at what I'm figuring, conservatively, to be at least ten times the salary) as opposed to letting him walk and going with Fields.

Personally, I doubt it's worth the price.

There is no salary cap in baseball.

mzh
04-08-2008, 10:44 PM
It may take alot of money, but Joe Crede is definitely worth his salt. I'm sorry, but I am prepared to put up with Scott Boras. All Josh Fields has proven is that he can hit a lot of home runs. It's still only the first week, and we'll see if Crede keeps this up.

slowlearner
04-08-2008, 10:51 PM
There is no salary cap in baseball.

It's not about dollars spent. It's about the result you get for the dollars you spend.

The whole Torii Hunter debacle is a perfect example. He's not worth $16-18 Mil per year. Is he worth $10 or 12 Mil.? I dunno, maybe, probably. What can you get for that extra $4-6 Mil. per year? It got the Sox an historically well above average setup man.

What, you don't think KW is operating within some sort of budget? :smile:

Billy Ashley
04-08-2008, 10:58 PM
"Defense tends to be one of the first skills to go."

I disagree, not at Third Base. For his next 3-5 year contract and unless he is injured, his defense should remain at a high level. You have no basis at all for your statement and it sounds like you just pulled it out of your--thin air.


Actually no, it's not made up from thin air.

It's the classic Young man skills vs Old mans skills argument that has been around for close to 30 years.

Essentially, younger players tend to be more athletic. They are faster, more flexible, have better reaction times. However they don't have the experience that years of training and practice and playing give old men.

Old men skills usually relate to the adjustments players make as their bodies slow down. If the top performance of a players performance is between 25-28 (and it is, there's lots of hard data to back it up), we see these players at the top of their physical conditioning. They are still fast, have great reactions and so on.

The great ball players who last well into there 30s, make adjustments and begin to take control of the strike zone when they bat (look at K/BB ratios) and so on. They do so because they are no longer as agile and athletic to make it on talent alone.

So yeah... young players by virtue of being young typically are better fielders. As we age, ballplayers and mere humans alike, time catches up with us. We lose the reaction time, we lose the flexibility we lose the agility

I assure you I'm not making this stuff up. Go read the studies yourself. Joe Crede has seen his best days at defense behind him. Could he still be very good? Sure. Is it safe to assume so, hell no.

Anyway, I'm done talking about this point. I've had people call me out claiming I'm making stuff up when I've used data to support my claims when other posters have argued the data they have is what they've seen with their own two eyes. Being that none of you are professional scouts, I'm just going to shut up, know I'm right and chuckle to myself at the All star break when people around here are going postal wanting Crede's head.

I've been belittled for thinking Adam Dunn was better than Josh Fields on this board. I can live with being belittled about being right about Crede as well.



Additionally, for the record: I have never said that Crede was a bad ball player. He in fact had tons of value in 05 and was serviceable in other years. He was a premium defensive third basemen for several years. That alone makes him a better baseball player than the majority of people to ever make it to the majors. That said, we have tons of data showing he's not that good of a hitter and anecdotal evidence to suggest that his defense will likely decline... giving him an extension would be foolish.

TDog
04-09-2008, 03:23 AM
...

It's the classic Young man skills vs Old mans skills argument that has been around for close to 30 years.

Essentially, younger players tend to be more athletic. They are faster, more flexible, have better reaction times. However they don't have the experience that years of training and practice and playing give old men. ...

It sounds reasonable. The only thing is, the really good thirdbasemen I've seen stuck around to play great defensive third base after their hitting skills seemed to have left them.

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned Graig Nettles, who I saw a lot of when he was 40 and playing for the Padres. As I noted earlier, he wasn't much of a hitter but was only around for the defense, which was big for the Padres in their run to the 1984 World Series. Aurelio Rodriguez, whose parents in the copper mining town of Cananea, Sonora, shoved every vowell into his first name, couldn't hit at all at the end of his career, but he was still playing a great defensive third base. When Brooks Robinson was nearing the end of his career in the mid 1970s, he remained a great defensive third baseman, but his hitting skills had diminished.

In fact, I've seen shortstops, such as Rico Petrocelli, move to third base late in their careers when they lose range.

I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about. Luis Aparicio was probably a better hitter in the 1970s than he was in the 1950s. People at the park told me his defensive skills had waned. But your generalization isn't the sort of thing on which I would base personnel decisions.

ode to veeck
04-09-2008, 09:39 AM
Actually no, it's not made up from thin air.

It's the classic Young man skills vs Old mans skills argument that has been around for close to 30 years.

<...>

Additionally, for the record: I have never said that Crede was a bad ball player. He in fact had tons of value in 05 and was serviceable in other years. He was a premium defensive third basemen for several years. That alone makes him a better baseball player than the majority of people to ever make it to the majors. That said, we have tons of data showing he's not that good of a hitter and anecdotal evidence to suggest that his defense will likely decline... giving him an extension would be foolish.

Sorry but you're just plain full of it here.

A lot of the better fielding players have outstanding fielding skills deep into their careers. Brooks was already in his 30s when he literally took over the playoffs and WS in 70 and played several more years of outstanding D following. There's plenty of other examples and more than mentioned already. When you actually see a difference in Joe's game on the field defensively, well maybe then you can have a discussion. I expect it will be quite a number of years down the road if his new back holds out.

And get off the crap about his hitting. Sure, he's not A-Rod and sure he has some dismal ABs, but he is one heck of a clutch hitter at times and has been a steady producer throughout his career.

If Joe is healthy, 3B is one nice thing to not have to worry about and having a guy who is going to continue to produce a steady pace of fielding gems there is a bona fide advantage.

As for Boras, IRod already showed the chinks in his armor are becoming more obvious around the MLB, if Joe really wants to stay with the Sox as it surely seems he's happy here, there's a way to make it happen and not break the bank; it just might take Joe taking the reins a bit with Boras in the process to get what he wants.

ode to veeck
04-09-2008, 09:46 AM
Crede is an integral part of the 2008 White Sox. The Sox look like they'll be competitive all season and should have a legitimate chance to make the playoffs. Thus, I don't see the Sox trading Crede at all this season unless: (a) Fields shows a marked improvement defensively at 3B and (b) the Giants or Dodgers overwhelm the Sox with a trade offer. Frankly, I don't see the Giants even making an offer, as they have multiple holes to fill and are far behind the top teams in their division.
.

(a) will never happen including in all possible parallel universes
(b) the Giants have nothing to offer, weak hitting and little to no pitching

if the Sox remain competitive (nice appearances so far) Crede is going nowhere this year

Carolina Kenny
04-09-2008, 09:49 AM
It sounds reasonable. The only thing is, the really good thirdbasemen I've seen stuck around to play great defensive third base after their hitting skills seemed to have left them.

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned Graig Nettles, who I saw a lot of when he was 40 and playing for the Padres. As I noted earlier, he wasn't much of a hitter but was only around for the defense, which was big for the Padres in their run to the 1984 World Series. Aurelio Rodriguez, whose parents in the copper mining town of Cananea, Sonora, shoved every vowell into his first name, couldn't hit at all at the end of his career, but he was still playing a great defensive third base. When Brooks Robinson was nearing the end of his career in the mid 1970s, he remained a great defensive third baseman, but his hitting skills had diminished.

In fact, I've seen shortstops, such as Rico Petrocelli, move to third base late in their careers when they lose range.

I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about. Luis Aparicio was probably a better hitter in the 1970s than he was in the 1950s. People at the park told me his defensive skills had waned. But your generalization isn't the sort of thing on which I would base personnel decisions.

Thank you TDog. If healthy I have no doubt that Joe Crede will be considered to be a upper tier defensive third baseman for the next 3-5 years. I would even argue that age for a corner infield position is the least affected of any position. Jeez, its not like he is playing CF.

Historically there are plenty of outstanding third baseman who played effectively for over ten years.

TomBradley72
04-09-2008, 10:29 AM
I'm a huge Crede fan and hope they re-sign him, but I'm mostly concerned with him being our 3rd baseman THIS year. I think he gives us the best chance to win the pennant and return to the World Series.

If Fields is our guy for 2009 forward....I think he'll be solid and eventually an All Star. But Crede is the better choice for this season.

I'd rather have another ring and lose Crede to FA getting nothing in return than pick up a few prospects for Joe and try to get to the WS with Fields at 3rd.

Billy Ashley
04-09-2008, 10:35 AM
Thank you TDog. If healthy I have no doubt that Joe Crede will be considered to be a upper tier defensive third baseman for the next 3-5 years. I would even argue that age for a corner infield position is the least affected of any position. Jeez, its not like he is playing CF.

Historically there are plenty of outstanding third baseman who played effectively for over ten years.

wow, just wow... I know I said I'd leave the Crede topic alone but this shows why I'm not getting through to people.

Top Tier? Really? Joe Crede?

Third basemen likely to be better than Crede over the next 3 years:

David Wright
Miguel Cabrera
Alex Rodriquez
Ryan Zimmerman
Garret Atkins
Aramis Ramirez
Evan Longoria
Mike Lowell
Alex Gordon
Bill Hall
Chipper Jones
Adrien Beltre


and before your say I'm undervaluing his defense, I've said repeatedly that Crede's defense is fantastic, but it's not like he's as good as Inge or Feliz or pre injury Scott Rolen.


so yeah, I'm full of it. All I have done is pointed out the fact Crede is a valuable contributer so long as he is healthy and able to play defense, but is no star and not worth gambling 3 expensive years on. Those who disagree with me point out how "clutch" he is and how awesome his season has been thus far (short sample size anyone?).

Anyone who thinks Joe Crede is atop the ranks of thirdbasemen in baseball other than 2005 is drinking the kool aid.

It's Time
04-09-2008, 10:40 AM
Anyone who thinks Joe Crede is atop the ranks of thirdbasemen in baseball other than 2005 is drinking the kool aid.

Are you drinking something else to come to the conclusion of that last post of yours? :o: Seriously, that list has some guys I would not even mention in the same breath as Crede.

Bill Hall??? LOL!!!:D:

Billy Ashley
04-09-2008, 10:48 AM
Are you drinking something else to come to the conclusion of that last post of yours? :o: Seriously, that list has some guys I would not even mention in the same breath as Crede.

Bill Hall??? LOL!!!:D:

Bill Hall Warp 3 the past three seasons:
2.9, 5.6, 6.6

Joe Crede:
1.3, 8.3, 6.0

So yeah, aside from 2005 they are pretty darn similar. Also Hall happens to be younger and healthier.

LOL at you pointing out the worst of the players on that list and him actually comparing pretty well to Crede.

It's Time
04-09-2008, 10:52 AM
LOL at you pointing out the worst of the players on that list and him actually comparing pretty well to Crede.

I didn't put those players on the list, you did.:D:

I could have named about 5 more players on that list of yours that can't hold a candle to Joe.

Billy Ashley
04-09-2008, 11:00 AM
I didn't put those players on the list, you did.:D:

I could have named about 5 more players on that list of yours that can't hold a candle to Joe.

Yes I put him on the list because he compares favorably to Joe Crede, as my post above illustrated.

I'm assuming the other 5 include Longeria and Gordon who are kids... but I kind of want to see what other 3 thirdbasemen you feel are so far below the greatness that is Joe Crede. Likely Beltre.... but beyond that, I can't figure it out.

veeter
04-09-2008, 11:07 AM
Are there better third basemen than Crede? Some say yes, I say maybe. The bottom line is, Joe is best for the White Sox. He's a huge part of the clubhouse. His pitchers love him and so do most fans. He's been lights out since the end of 2005. Last year he played hurt. He has come into his own as a player. He's clearly the answer for this season.

Domeshot17
04-09-2008, 11:07 AM
Yes I put him on the list because he compares favorably to Joe Crede, as my post above illustrated.

I'm assuming the other 5 include Longeria and Gordon who are kids... but I kind of want to see what other 3 thirdbasemen you feel are so far below the greatness that is Joe Crede. Likely Beltre.... but beyond that, I can't figure it out.


the think the real problem is in the wording.

The original post said top-teir defensively. No one doubts he is a top 5 or 6 defensive 3b. You went top teir all around, which Crede falls to probably the bottom of the 2nd or top of the 3rd group overall.

Billy Ashley
04-09-2008, 11:11 AM
the think the real problem is in the wording.

The original post said top-teir defensively. No one doubts he is a top 5 or 6 defensive 3b. You went top teir all around, which Crede falls to probably the bottom of the 2nd or top of the 3rd group overall.


If we're only talking defense I'll concede that, but I suspect the other poster believes all around, or at least that's how it read.

On defense for the record, I'd rank Crede somewhere in the top five, he's way behind Pedro Feliz (but everyone is and Feliz is such a horrific hitter he barely got a job this off season despite his borderline historic glove), Brandon Inge (who has been moved), and Zimmerman. After that, its Wright, Crede and Beltre very closely grouped.

* his initial comment was about defense, his last phrase was that "plenty of outstanding 3b have stuck around well into their 30's". That's the confusion... if he meant defense only, then yeah, he's correct, Crede is better than Bill Hall.

assrevolution
04-09-2008, 11:12 AM
It's a very frustrating situation at third base. We have two great third basemen and the one I'd prefer to sign (Crede) has 'agent issues'. If we can't sign Crede then Fields should be playing, but he can't play anything else besides third. and you can't bench Crede, there'll be no value in his trade (and he's too damn good not to be playing every day), and by mid year the likelihood of getting anything good (pitching) from any team is unlikely. Being overloaded at a position can be a really good thing (as in starting pitching) but at third not so much, especially with an agent that the Sox won't deal with. It'll be very interesting to see what Kenny can work out. How he handles this situation will really show what kind of GM he is.

veeter
04-09-2008, 11:15 AM
If we're only talking defense I'll concede that, but I suspect the other poster believes all around, or at least that's how it read.

On defense for the record, I'd rank Crede somewhere in the top five, he's way behind Pedro Feliz (but everyone is and Feliz is such a horrific hitter he barely got a job this off season despite his borderline historic glove), Brandon Inge (who has been moved), and Zimmerman. After that, its Wright, Crede and Beltre very closely grouped.How much have you seen Feliz or any of these guys you mention play? Are you going by stats and logarithms? We all see Joe play everyday and the guy is stellar with the glove.

Billy Ashley
04-09-2008, 11:19 AM
I've seen him play plenty. Not every day, but he's fantastic. Additionally, the stats back up that he's amazing. Problem is, he's god awful at bat. He would not hurt a team too much as a regular so long as he continues to field as he does, but boy, it must be frustrating watching him bat. His WARP 3s are typically range from 3-5.

That said, I think Philly was right to sign him. There third base situation was horrific last season and at least Feliz does one thing right.

Rolen in his hay day was a little too long ago for me to recall with great detail. I was a teenager then and he looked great. That said, I'm not now or have ever been a scout, so that means very little. His stats suggest he's up there with Brooks Robinson though...

It's Time
04-09-2008, 11:26 AM
Yes I put him on the list because he compares favorably to Joe Crede, as my post above illustrated.

I'm assuming the other 5 include Longeria and Gordon who are kids... but I kind of want to see what other 3 thirdbasemen you feel are so far below the greatness that is Joe Crede. Likely Beltre.... but beyond that, I can't figure it out.

Zimmerman , Atkins and Ramirez.

Billy Ashley
04-09-2008, 11:32 AM
Zimmeran , Atkins and Ramirez.

On defense or overall?

Zimmerman:He's better at both
Atkins: Is a better player but not nearly the fielder
Ramirez: Better at hitting, almost equals with the glove.

TomBradley72
04-09-2008, 11:35 AM
Anyone who thinks Joe Crede is atop the ranks of thirdbasemen in baseball other than 2005 is drinking the kool aid.

So in his last healthy season, 2006, when he hit: .280-30-94...what kool aid are we drinking to think that put him among the best 3rd baseman that season? Or in other words...the last two seasons he's been healthy..he's been among the best.

Billy Ashley
04-09-2008, 11:36 AM
So in his last healthy season, 2006, when he hit: .280-30-94...what kool aid are we drinking to think that put him among the best 3rd baseman that season? Or in other words...the last two seasons he's been healthy..he's been among the best.

sorry that was a typo, meant 06, he was merely good in 05. But the point still stnads.

kitekrazy
04-09-2008, 11:37 AM
I agree. Why is anyone thinking of breaking up this team in July?

The Cubs fans are coming out the closet.

TomBradley72
04-09-2008, 11:38 AM
Ramirez: Better at hitting, almost equals with the glove.

Now who's drinking the kool aid?

"Almost equal with the glove"? How many pop ups have bounced off this guy's head? Ramirez never has been and never will be mentioned as a gold glove candidate....and is nowhere near the 3rd baseman Crede is on defense (or as a leader and teamate)

It's Time
04-09-2008, 11:39 AM
On defense or overall?

Zimmerman:He's better at both
Atkins: Is a better player but not nearly the fielder
Ramirez: Better at hitting, almost equals with the glove.

Atkins plays at Coors, end of story. Aramis has a better stick, not sure about the glove comment.

Zimmerman? I'll take Joe.

TomBradley72
04-09-2008, 11:41 AM
Zimmerman:He's better at both


23 errors last season...you would honestly take Zimmerman over Crede on defense?

It's Time
04-09-2008, 11:42 AM
23 errors last season...you would honestly take Zimmerman over Crede on defense?

I really think this guy had a few too many beers this morning.

Craig Grebeck
04-09-2008, 12:12 PM
If you would rather have Crede than Zimmerman, you've lost all hope as a baseball fan.

How the **** do you know whether or not Ramirez is a leader Tom? I don't know that he is -- I also don't know that he isn't. Same for Joe. I'm not in the clubhouse everyday. He is also 10000x the hitter Joe is.

EndemicSox
04-09-2008, 12:16 PM
23 errors last season...you would honestly take Zimmerman over Crede on defense?

In a heartbeat...Zimmerman could play SS, of this I'm sure...well, kind of, if he lost some weight, of course!

It's Time
04-09-2008, 12:26 PM
. He is also 10000x the hitter Joe is.

Zimmerman is?

Droso5
04-09-2008, 12:35 PM
Isn't it obvious? He is a "ballplayer" that can "hit" 10000000x better than Joltin' Joe Crede.

Jurr
04-09-2008, 12:35 PM
I love the time tested message board method of "...all you _____haters, let's hear you now??" after the player in question has a great day at the park.

Here's the deal...on WSI we heard for years about Crede blowing up the minors with his bat. We were treated to a great call up period when Crede hit everything out of the park. WSI fans were pretty annoyed with Crede's LOOONG swing and lack of productivity, much the same as we were for Rowand. Finally, it clicked for Joe. Hell, I remember when the board was looking for a nickname for him after he started producing in '04 or '05. Remember the "Comet" threads??? :wink:

The guy has the bad back and may be a ticking time bomb for all we know. However, he has produced in big situations, he was ENORMOUS for the Sox in the playoffs, and his glove is rivaled only by Chavez at third.

Sox fans don't HATE their players. We root the guys on. Brian Anderson gets a lot of heat on this board, but if he came out and lit the world on fire, we'd all love him.

Enough with the "....let me hear it from all you Crede haters now" stuff. We love the guy. We'd love to see him stay healthy and retire a Sox player. Will that happen? Who knows? Until he's gone, he's one of our guys, and we love him.

spawn
04-09-2008, 12:43 PM
Enough with the "....let me hear it from all you Crede haters now" stuff. We love the guy. We'd love to see him stay healthy and retire a Sox player. Will that happen? Who knows? Until he's gone, he's one of our guys, and we love him.
Word. He's our starting 3rd baseman, and as White Sox fans we should all be happy he's producing, and we should all hope he keeps producing as long as he's here.

Billy Ashley
04-09-2008, 01:07 PM
Now who's drinking the kool aid?

"Almost equal with the glove"? How many pop ups have bounced off this guy's head? Ramirez never has been and never will be mentioned as a gold glove candidate....and is nowhere near the 3rd baseman Crede is on defense (or as a leader and teamate)

+/- leaders at 3b in 2007:
Feliz +27
Inge +22
Zimmerman +22
Ramirez + 15
Rolen +15

So yeah, I must be drunk. Or I must be objective. I知 thankful that other people on this board are starting to chime in stating that they feel that Zimmerman is better than Crede, I had lost all hope for a moment.

For the record:
Career OPS+ (and OPS+ takes home ball park into account_
Crede: 93
Atkins: 110
Zimmerman: 112

Are Atkins numbers a product of Coors field? Yes, his counting stats are. However, Crede also gets a bump from playing at home. With neutralized ball park factors we still see that Atkins is close to 30% more productive than Crede. Zimmerman on the other hand, has traditional stats that look very similar (but better than) Crede. However, he played his entire career up until this point in an offensive black hole at RFK.

Also Warp 3 over the last 5 years:

Zimmerman: 9.7, 8.9, 1.4 (Only 64 PAs)
The guys an absolute stud. He's the third best 4th in baseball right now behind only A-Rod*, Wright and Cabrera. Some would argue for Chipper Jones, and I can understand that, but given his health concerns I'd have to go with Zim.

Ramirez: 9.0. 8.2, 5.6, 7.0, 1.8
Ramirez is a gifted fielder and an awesome hitter (for a 3b), he's got an outside shot at 400 career home runs, 2500 hits and a hall of fame plaque

Atkins: 6.1, 7.4, 2.7, .6 (33 PAs) , -1.1 (72 PaS)
Not a good fielder, but a gifted hitter. He's a tad overrated but his past two years were not that far behind Crede's best two.

Crede: 1.3 (only 178 PAs), 8.3, 6.0 ,3.0, 4.2
In the past five years he's been great 1 year, hurt 1 year (on pace to be ok), been Pedro Feliz 2 years and been above average 1 year. Elite my butt. He's a good player and losing him hurt the White Sox a ton last year, but look at the facts, he's not amazing, just good. What's wrong with that?

*Edited because I somehow forgot the best player in baseball

ode to veeck
04-09-2008, 01:17 PM
So yeah, I must be drunk. Or I must be objective. I知 thankful that other people on this board are starting to chime in stating that they feel that Zimmerman is better than Crede, I had lost all hope for a moment.
.

or lost or on drugs or all of the above, its not even close on Z

ode to veeck
04-09-2008, 01:17 PM
I love the time tested message board method of "...all you _____haters, let's hear you now??" after the player in question has a great day at the park.

Here's the deal...on WSI we heard for years about Crede blowing up the minors with his bat. We were treated to a great call up period when Crede hit everything out of the park. WSI fans were pretty annoyed with Crede's LOOONG swing and lack of productivity, much the same as we were for Rowand. Finally, it clicked for Joe. Hell, I remember when the board was looking for a nickname for him after he started producing in '04 or '05. Remember the "Comet" threads??? :wink:

The guy has the bad back and may be a ticking time bomb for all we know. However, he has produced in big situations, he was ENORMOUS for the Sox in the playoffs, and his glove is rivaled only by Chavez at third.

Sox fans don't HATE their players. We root the guys on. Brian Anderson gets a lot of heat on this board, but if he came out and lit the world on fire, we'd all love him.

Enough with the "....let me hear it from all you Crede haters now" stuff. We love the guy. We'd love to see him stay healthy and retire a Sox player. Will that happen? Who knows? Until he's gone, he's one of our guys, and we love him.

post of the thread

we can all go back to watching the Sox pound the Twinks today now

Billy Ashley
04-09-2008, 01:18 PM
or lost or on drugs or all of the above, its not even close on Z


Say again? Is Zimmerman not close to Crede and I'm high? Or is this board crazy?

NLaloosh
04-09-2008, 01:22 PM
Maggs said that he REALLY wanted to stay and play for the Sox and he loved the fans.

Joe Crede - he gone!

Josh Fields= the future

champagne030
04-09-2008, 01:32 PM
Also Warp 3 over the last 5 years:

Zimmerman: 9.7, 8.9, 1.4 (Only 64 PAs)
The guys an absolute stud. He's the third best 3b in baseball right now behind only Wright and Cabrera. Some would argue for Chipper Jones, and I can understand that, but given his health concerns I'd have to go with Zim.



Ryan Zimmerman looks like he has a very nice career in front of him, but "third best 3b in baseball right now"? Ummm, without listing several others, how about Alex Rodriguez, along with Wright and Cabrera?

Billy Ashley
04-09-2008, 01:33 PM
Ryan Zimmerman looks like he has a very nice career in front of him, but "third best 3b in baseball right now"? Ummm, without listing several others, how about Alex Rodriguez, along with Wright and Cabrera?


Duurrrhhhh, I don't know how I did that

4rth best, my bad. A-Rod is still likely the best. Complete brain fart on my part.

TomBradley72
04-09-2008, 01:37 PM
If you would rather have Crede than Zimmerman, you've lost all hope as a baseball fan.

How the **** do you know whether or not Ramirez is a leader Tom? I don't know that he is -- I also don't know that he isn't. Same for Joe. I'm not in the clubhouse everyday. He is also 10000x the hitter Joe is.

I didn't say I'd rather have Crede than Zimmerman...I was questioning ranking him "clearly" ahead of Crede on defense...the 23 errors stood out to me, but I've only had limited exposure to him.

Ramirez has been here 5+ years....I just haven't seen any evidence that part of the value he brings to a team is a "leaderhship" component. I might be wrong...but you can VORP, WARP, etc. all you want...and I'd rather have Crede on a team I'm putting together than Ramirez.

Billy Ashley
04-09-2008, 01:42 PM
I didn't say I'd rather have Crede than Zimmerman...I was questioning ranking him "clearly" ahead of Crede on defense...the 23 errors stood out to me, but I've only had limited exposure to him.

Ramirez has been here 5+ years....I just haven't seen any evidence that part of the value he brings to a team is a "leaderhship" component. I might be wrong...but you can VORP, WARP, etc. all you want...and I'd rather have Crede on a team I'm putting together than Ramirez.


So in theory, Crede being a good Rah Rah let's go team guy makes up for Ramirez being much better at baseball?

How many more wins does leadership bring? Maybe 1 or 2 a season (and I知 being overly generous here)? And here we're only using a feeling to make a judgement, right? You feel that Ramirez is not the leader in the club house Crede is, even though you don't have any evidence.

Would you rather take Mike Lowell or Aramis Ramirez, I think the answer is pretty easy, even with Lowell's rep for being a great club house guy.

ode to veeck
04-09-2008, 01:47 PM
Josh Fields= the future

not at 3rd base

kittle42
04-09-2008, 01:54 PM
Ramirez is not a "gifted fielder."

He is a great hitter, and I'll take him over Crede or Zimmerman or Atkins.

It's Time
04-09-2008, 01:56 PM
:hawk
"Zimmerman?" "That's BULL ****!' "That's a dag-gum laugh".

spiffie
04-09-2008, 01:57 PM
I didn't say I'd rather have Crede than Zimmerman...I was questioning ranking him "clearly" ahead of Crede on defense...the 23 errors stood out to me, but I've only had limited exposure to him.

Ramirez has been here 5+ years....I just haven't seen any evidence that part of the value he brings to a team is a "leaderhship" component. I might be wrong...but you can VORP, WARP, etc. all you want...and I'd rather have Crede on a team I'm putting together than Ramirez.
Crede's high fives are much more inspirational than Ramirez's lame ones. And Crede tells better knock knock jokes. Those alone are good for at least 8-10 wins a year.

MisterB
04-09-2008, 02:17 PM
+/- leaders at 3b in 2007:
Feliz +27
Inge +22
Zimmerman +22
Ramirez + 15
Rolen +15
(Wright +13
Punto, Chavez +10
Glaus +9
Beltre, Lowell +7)

So yeah, I must be drunk. Or I must be objective. I知 thankful that other people on this board are starting to chime in stating that they feel that Zimmerman is better than Crede, I had lost all hope for a moment.


+/- Leaders at 3B in 2006

Inge +27
Feliz +25
Beltre +23
Crede +22
Punto +15
Sanchez +12
Glaus +10
Rolen, Lowell & Bell +8

So, Zimmerman in '07 had about as good a defensive season as Crede in '06. Neither Zim or Ramirez made the top 10 list in '06 despite being the starters for their respective teams all season. So in what way does this prove that:
a) Zimmerman is better than Crede defensively
b) Ramirez is 'almost as good' as Crede, especially since in the '03-'05 breakdown (http://www.billjamesonline.net/fieldingbible/three-year-statistics.asp) Crede has a collective +15 and Ramirez a -17?

Selectively omitting non-supporting stats to prove your point is NOT being "objective".

RockJock07
04-09-2008, 02:18 PM
What this whole thing boils down to is money. Sure the sox don't like SB, but they will deal with him if he gives the sox a fair offer. Boras has been driving the price up for years and that's fine for A-rod, but the sox aren't gonna pay that amount of money for anyone, let alone Joe Crede.

I don't think they should even think about signing him until down the road. IMO I think the sox should wait, see if this production is fluke and if it isn't then trade him to the dodgers for a very solid prospect.

JC is making 4.9 mil this year, I see no need to go over that, IF, and I mean IF the sox were to think about signing him, I think a 3 year, 15 mil contract is very fair. Then you put Josh at DH and try to trade Thome by eating some of his salary.

There is another option that I think JC and Boras would decline but it would be in the best option for the sox and that would be signing him to another 1 year deal or a 2 year, incentive laden deal. the problem with this is that Boras will not stand for that plus the fact that other teams will look at 06 and overpay for him like the giants did with Aaron Rowand. But this option doesn't help Josh fields.

Billy Ashley
04-09-2008, 03:20 PM
+/- Leaders at 3B in 2006

Inge +27
Feliz +25
Beltre +23
Crede +22
Punto +15
Sanchez +12
Glaus +10
Rolen, Lowell & Bell +8

So, Zimmerman in '07 had about as good a defensive season as Crede in '06. Neither Zim or Ramirez made the top 10 list in '06 despite being the starters for their respective teams all season. So in what way does this prove that:
a) Zimmerman is better than Crede defensively
b) Ramirez is 'almost as good' as Crede, especially since in the '03-'05 breakdown (http://www.billjamesonline.net/fieldingbible/three-year-statistics.asp) Crede has a collective +15 and Ramirez a -17?

Selectively omitting non-supporting stats to prove your point is NOT being "objective".

I only looked at 07, suprised to see that Ramirez was tht low from 03-05. Did he change something in his game or was last year a fluke?

Zimmerman on the other hand has been touted as a fantastic 3b since his days at UVA. He's younger, been more healthy and likely the better fielder.


BTW thanks for the link, I was not aware of the fact that one could access anything other than the leader boards on that web site. As far as the objective dig, I'll admit to being wrong about Ramirez in 03-05 but I have no reason to being wrong on purpose. I don't care for the Cubs or Ramirez. I posted their WARP stats as well, and they show what I've been saying anyway, Crede is not as good of an all around player to Ramirez.

Carolina Kenny
04-09-2008, 03:50 PM
Duurrrhhhh, I don't know how I did that

4rth best, my bad. A-Rod is still likely the best. Complete brain fart on my part.

Brain Fart--

A condition caused by over analysis and over dependence of statistics as related to MLB player performance. Like a computer, the Brain Fart can only crunch numbers but cannot, hear,touch or smell the real world. Smelling the real world would cause the Brain Fart to explode.

voodoochile
04-09-2008, 03:52 PM
Brain Fart--

A condition caused by over analysis and over dependence of statistics as related to MLB player performance. Like a computer, the Brain Fart can only crunch numbers but cannot, hear,touch or smell the real world. Smelling the real world would cause the Brain Fart to explode.

And vice versa...

Domeshot17
04-09-2008, 03:53 PM
Zimmerman has a chance to be a really special player. He is still very young, and plays on a bad team. Put some talent and protection around him, and he could be a carbon copy of David Wright.

That said, Crede still throws the leather better than him, and I think saying Error-Miss Ramirez plays as good of D as Crede is like saying a Big Mac is as good as a Filet because they come from the same animal.

ode to veeck
04-09-2008, 03:58 PM
And vice versa...


exploding the brain fart would cause the real world to smell? (maybe that's why it stinks everytime the statheads jump in with their conclusions)

voodoochile
04-09-2008, 04:02 PM
exploding the brain fart would cause the real world to smell? (maybe that's why it stinks everytime the statheads jump in with their conclusions)

Works for me, but I was thinking more along the lines of smelling the brain fart would cause the world to explode...

Carolina Kenny
04-09-2008, 04:23 PM
Works for me, but I was thinking more along the lines of smelling the brain fart would cause the world to explode...

I like stats, love reading Bill James,playing Strat O Matic,fantasy baseball, reading box scores, etc. but many geeks with a computer consider themselves some sort of "baseball savant" based on their interruptation of statisical information.

Baseball is a HUMAN endevour played by HUMANS. Stats have their place with judging talent, but are only a factor in spotting trends in the evaluation and not the sum total of the evaluation itself.

The world of baseball reduced to endless statistics devoid of the smell, taste, sight and sounds of baseball is a bleak and desolate place.

Daver
04-09-2008, 05:42 PM
So in theory, Crede being a good Rah Rah let's go team guy makes up for Ramirez being much better at baseball?

How many more wins does leadership bring? Maybe 1 or 2 a season (and I知 being overly generous here)? And here we're only using a feeling to make a judgement, right? You feel that Ramirez is not the leader in the club house Crede is, even though you don't have any evidence.

Would you rather take Mike Lowell or Aramis Ramirez, I think the answer is pretty easy, even with Lowell's rep for being a great club house guy.

You should share what you're smoking.

mzh
04-09-2008, 05:57 PM
How can you say that Alexei Ramirez is a better clubhouse guy than Crede when Ramirez has played exactly one game for the Sox?

PennStater98r
04-09-2008, 06:21 PM
Aramis Ramirez is a piece of crap that I wouldn't want to see on any team that I would ever cheer for - even on a whim. Therefore, I am glad the turd is on the Cubs. He's utterly useless and has no place in baseball. He needs to learn how to run bases when he hits one deep...

mzh
04-09-2008, 06:26 PM
Aramis Ramirez is a piece of crap that I wouldn't want to see on any team that I would ever cheer for - even on a whim. Therefore, I am glad the turd is on the Cubs. He's utterly useless and has no place in baseball. He needs to learn how to run bases when he hits one deep...

Amen. Not to mention he probably juiced in '03. Any comments on Reinsdorf's comments?

Craig Grebeck
04-09-2008, 08:48 PM
What in the hell are you guys talking about? Why did he "probably juice"? Why is he a piece of crap -- because he doesn't run the bases to your liking?

mzh
04-09-2008, 08:51 PM
Look at his power stats varying since 2001. He has experienced some of the exact same things we've seen in Barry Bonds. He was a mediocre player who suddenly burst with power and just stopped hustling. That's stuff you saw in Sammy Sosa too. That's why he probably juiced.

Craig Grebeck
04-09-2008, 08:57 PM
Look at his power stats varying since 2001. He has experienced some of the exact same things we've seen in Barry Bonds. He was a mediocre player who suddenly burst with power and just stopped hustling. That's stuff you saw in Sammy Sosa too. That's why he probably juiced.
His first full season in the bigs he hit 34 home runs. He then struggled the next season and has since been an offensive force. How does that equate to steroid use? How does that relate to Barry Bonds? I literally have no idea what you're talking about. Bonds hit an ungodly amount of HR -- Ramirez has never done anything like that.

He doesn't hustle. OK. Doesn't make him a bad player or a juicer. He's also nothing like Sosa.

Stop talking about him like he's Brady Anderson.

mzh
04-09-2008, 10:48 PM
Theirs a chance Brady Anderson juiced too.

Daver
04-09-2008, 10:56 PM
Theirs a chance Brady Anderson juiced too.

If you are going to post baseless speculation that has no basis in fact or reality, find another forum to do so at, it will not be tolerated here.

Brian26
04-09-2008, 11:04 PM
Theirs a chance Brady Anderson juiced too.

I'm not saying I have an opinion either way, but you need to consider this if you make that accusation:

Did Brady Anderson stop taking the steroids after he hit 50 homers in 1996? Or did the steroids just stop working? And, if the steroids stopped working, it's a non-issue. And, if Anderson stopped taking them, he's an idiot.

I paraphrased that from an interview I read from Anderson this spring.

Lukin13
04-09-2008, 11:04 PM
I have never hated Joe Crede, in fact up until this offseason I listed him as my favorite player on the team in my profile.

I just could not, and still do not understand why we are investing in a player that will not be here next year.... when he isn't heads and tails better than the player that will play 3rd for the WS for the forseable future.

sox1970
04-09-2008, 11:10 PM
I was in the "trade Crede" camp, but now that the season is going, I'm done playing armchair GM and just going to enjoy the season as much as possible and not worry about it. They have a good lineup going. When Thome and Konerko start hitting, this is going to be a very good offensive team.

FedEx227
04-09-2008, 11:22 PM
If you are going to post baseless speculation that has no basis in fact or reality, find another forum to do so at, it will not be tolerated here.

http://www.femmefan.com/site/images/lookerspics/lookers2/Brady-Anderson.jpg
"All natural, baby."

JB98
04-09-2008, 11:53 PM
I have never hated Joe Crede, in fact up until this offseason I listed him as my favorite player on the team in my profile.

I just could not, and still do not understand why we are investing in a player that will not be here next year.... when he isn't heads and tails better than the player that will play 3rd for the WS for the forseable future.

1. Crede is clearly a better player than Fields.
2. We are trying to win a championship in 2008.

We'll worry about the future when it gets here.

PennStater98r
04-10-2008, 09:39 AM
I am weighing on Ramirez being a piece of crap - period. I don't think the guy juiced, but I do think he sucks. Worthless homeruns when a team is 10-20 games out of first place and lack of hustle are things that do contribute to a players lack of value. He's selfish, was looking for a big contract and didn't hit for **** when there was a chance he wouldn't get paid. If the Sox had a player on the team that watched his "homerun" balls and some of them turned out to be doubles off the wall, we'd have a few members quite pissed at that player. That's what Ramirez is. He has a lead glove, power when it's not needed, a bad attitude, chronic nagging injuries and a general laziness.

I'd take Joe Crede 8 days a week. His 2005 HR against Cleveland at the end of the season, his double against L.A in the playoffs are just two meaningful, clutch hits in his career that are more than Ramirez has done for the Cubs in his entire career... Heck Blum has a more meaninful hit than every single one that Ramirez has had - I'd rather have Blum playing third base.

.196 / .308 / .464 = Ramirez postseason line in 15 games (4 HR).

Billy Ashley
04-10-2008, 09:44 AM
Yeah 15 games of average production is enough to tell us the guy sucks... clearly.

PennStater98r
04-10-2008, 09:49 AM
Yeah 15 games of average production is enough to tell us the guy sucks... clearly.


Why don't you look at what he did in 2006 for the first half of the season. He sucked, sucks and will always suck. He turned on it on after his team was completely out of the race that year so that he could "earn" his big contract. The guy shows no clutch. He's a bum.

Lip Man 1
04-10-2008, 10:11 AM
Latest on Joe's contract situation. For those who are hoping Joe will dump his agent, it doesn't sound like that's going to happen according to this story.

We'll see how it plays out but the key I think, will be how long the Sox remain in "contention."

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080409-joe-crede-chicago-white-sox,1,5508459.story

Lip

Frontman
04-10-2008, 10:16 AM
Latest on Joe's contract situation. For those who are hoping Joe will dump his agent, it doesn't sound like that's going to happen according to this story.

We'll see how it plays out but the key I think, will be how long the Sox remain in "contention."

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080409-joe-crede-chicago-white-sox,1,5508459.story

Lip

Lip,

I just wished all the moron callers to White Sox Weekly would read that article.

"Why haven't dey offered a contract to Clutch yet? Dey have da money...."

kittle42
04-10-2008, 11:08 AM
Why don't you look at what he did in 2006 for the first half of the season. He sucked, sucks and will always suck. He turned on it on after his team was completely out of the race that year so that he could "earn" his big contract. The guy shows no clutch. He's a bum.

Better take Albert Belle out of the Sox record books.

This line of argument is also perilously close to shoota territory.

ode to veeck
04-10-2008, 11:23 AM
Latest on Joe's contract situation. For those who are hoping Joe will dump his agent, it doesn't sound like that's going to happen according to this story.

We'll see how it plays out but the key I think, will be how long the Sox remain in "contention."

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080409-joe-crede-chicago-white-sox,1,5508459.story

Lip

a decent article pointing out the obvious, it doesn't make sense to do anything while Sox keep wining in '08, KW saying wait until after the season is sound as then you have a much better idea on Joe's long term durability, and while Crede won't dump Boras, even Boras realizes Joe can (against Boras' wishes) go for a home team discount for the Sox, sure there's bad blood between Boras and KW but there's a ton of other factors to consider once the time arrives (and it ain't here yet)

the only thing I didn't like about the article or the discussion is the thinking the Sox have to do something eventually because of Fields, when Fields is not going to be a 3rd baseman of any decent caliber, at most 1B or DH at some point, otherwise a liability in the field

ktssox
04-10-2008, 11:37 AM
Lip,

I just wished all the moron callers to White Sox Weekly would read that article.

"Why haven't dey offered a contract to Clutch yet? Dey have da money...."

Your comment yesterday and this one today make it sound as if you think Crede doesn't want to talk about a long-term contract. The article clearly states that the door is open on Crede's end and says that Boras says the same. It would seem that it is the White Sox that want to wait. Why do you think differently?

cards press box
04-10-2008, 11:42 AM
(a) will never happen including in all possible parallel universes
(b) the Giants have nothing to offer, weak hitting and little to no pitching

if the Sox remain competitive (nice appearances so far) Crede is going nowhere this year

I agree. I don't see the Sox dealing Crede unless they fall out of contention by the end of July and, hopefully, that will not happen.

Craig Grebeck
04-10-2008, 11:55 AM
Why don't you look at what he did in 2006 for the first half of the season. He sucked, sucks and will always suck. He turned on it on after his team was completely out of the race that year so that he could "earn" his big contract. The guy shows no clutch. He's a bum.
Are you serious? Look at his statistics. Get your head out of the sand. He's an elite hitter.

Frontman
04-10-2008, 11:59 AM
Your comment yesterday and this one today make it sound as if you think Crede doesn't want to talk about a long-term contract. The article clearly states that the door is open on Crede's end and says that Boras says the same. It would seem that it is the White Sox that want to wait. Why do you think differently?

Prior to each season, the following happened.

2006=Sox offer Crede a long term deal. Signs one year deal instead.
2007=Sox offer Crede a long term deal. Signs one year deal instead.
2008=Sox offer Crede a long term deal. Signs one year deal instead.

Each time, Boras/Crede have said they are happy with signing a one year deal, then re-visit it later.

So why on Earth would I believe that halfway through 2008, Boras and Crede would finally sign one? Gosh, because Boras himself has said, "Joe will test the Free Agent market."

Sox fans should stop hoping for something to happen when the agent and the player in question have a history.

kittle42
04-10-2008, 12:04 PM
Are you serious? Look at his statistics. Get your head out of the sand. He's an elite hitter.

I'd venture to say that if Error-Miss wasn't wearing the Cubbie pajamas, his opinion would be different.

Domeshot17
04-10-2008, 12:05 PM
Your comment yesterday and this one today make it sound as if you think Crede doesn't want to talk about a long-term contract. The article clearly states that the door is open on Crede's end and says that Boras says the same. It would seem that it is the White Sox that want to wait. Why do you think differently?

(Mods I dont know if Im allowed to qoute Kenny Williams himself directly, so if this is not done right, please feel free to remove)



"Well, I had the conversation. It didn't go well," "But no numbers were exchanged. I didn't make an offer. He didn't make an offer. It was expressed to us at the time that they would prefer to go ahead and play out the 2008 season and see what free agency has to offer.

That is a qoute Kenny said (was in many articles) about trying to talk to Boras about a long term deal for Crede AFTER his back surgery.

You can find it towards the bottom of this article about the Crede Fields spring competition. http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071107&content_id=2295651&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

spiffie
04-10-2008, 12:09 PM
Prior to each season, the following happened.

2006=Sox offer Crede a long term deal. Signs one year deal instead.
2007=Sox offer Crede a long term deal. Signs one year deal instead.
2008=Sox offer Crede a long term deal. Signs one year deal instead.

Each time, Boras/Crede have said they are happy with signing a one year deal, then re-visit it later.

So why on Earth would I believe that halfway through 2008, Boras and Crede would finally sign one? Gosh, because Boras himself has said, "Joe will test the Free Agent market."

Sox fans should stop hoping for something to happen when the agent and the player in question have a history.
This must be that vaunted clubhouse leadership people keep bringing up.

Frontman
04-10-2008, 12:48 PM
This must be that vaunted clubhouse leadership people keep bringing up.

I'd like for Joe to stay, but what I'd like and what probably will happen is a whole different kettle of fish.

asg2003ws2005
04-10-2008, 12:51 PM
Where are you these days? :D:

Mr. Clutch and sign him to a 3 year deal if his back is alright. NO ONE is more clutch then him, NO ONE.um, manos?

ktssox
04-10-2008, 01:24 PM
So why on Earth would I believe that halfway through 2008, Boras and Crede would finally sign one? Gosh, because Boras himself has said, "Joe will test the Free Agent market."

I guess I just thought it was odd that you said you hoped the morons would read the article when it said the exact opposite of what you were saying. Now if you're basing your opinion on history, that's a different story.

Although, I don't necessarily think that Crede is being disingenuous. I do believe that he wants to stay here, and that if the Sox made the right offer, he would. They, however, seem to want to wait until after the season. But given that Crede states again and again that he wants to stay, I don't think people are crazy for hoping it happens.

That is a qoute Kenny said (was in many articles) about trying to talk to Boras about a long term deal for Crede AFTER his back surgery.

I remember that article. I also remember Crede being confused and saying that he was never offered anything - which he never really was. I think that was a case of miscommunication. Someone asked Crede if he was offered a contract and he said no. Kenny said he contacted them but did not make an actual offer - just asked if they wanted to talk about it. Personally, I don't blame Crede for not talking at that point in time. He hadn't shown yet that he could play. I assume the offer would have been a complete lowball because they could say that they were offering it without knowing whether or not he could play.

Lip Man 1
04-10-2008, 01:44 PM
KTS:

Actually if memory serves Kenny said he contacted Boras last July after Crede went down and asked if "they be interested in discussing a contract extension." According to Kenny, Boras flat out said "Joe's going to test the market."

End of story.

Lip

Frontman
04-10-2008, 01:50 PM
I guess I just thought it was odd that you said you hoped the morons would read the article when it said the exact opposite of what you were saying. Now if you're basing your opinion on history, that's a different story.

Although, I don't necessarily think that Crede is being disingenuous. I do believe that he wants to stay here, and that if the Sox made the right offer, he would. They, however, seem to want to wait until after the season. But given that Crede states again and again that he wants to stay, I don't think people are crazy for hoping it happens.


My wanting folks to read the article is for the point of it looking like it won't happen. The article makes that point (and would be one more piece of evidence saying this isn't going to happen.

If Crede wants to stay, why didn't he sit down with the Sox this past off season when the discussion yet again came up?

Somewhere in the middle of all these stories is probably the truth. But in the meantime, if Joe brings about another post-season run for the Sox? Who cares if he has the contract now or later or never?

jabrch
04-10-2008, 01:54 PM
I hope Joe has an amazing season and earns a 5/75 deal - if he gets it from us or not - I don't care much. If we don't sign him, I am sure we will eventually find someone else who wants our $.

Billy Ashley
04-10-2008, 02:15 PM
I'd venture to say that if Error-Miss wasn't wearing the Cubbie pajamas, his opinion would be different.

Again, I'm no cub fan. If you really believe that only a cub fan would believe that Ramirez is a better player than Crede then 90% of baseball would be cub fans, and likely the majority of rational White Sox fans would be Cubs fans.

My argument is based on evidence. Yours is based on cute little nick names like error-miss and pointing out sample sizes of 15 games.

ktssox
04-10-2008, 02:16 PM
If Crede wants to stay, why didn't he sit down with the Sox this past off season when the discussion yet again came up?


As I said later in my post, I think Crede avoided talking about it this offseason because the offer probably would have been much lower than his true worth. He hadn't yet proven that he could play. The Sox could say that they were lowballing because they were taking a chance on him. As for other offseasons, I don't know.

I will continue to believe that Joe wants to be here (he said it again yesterday in a Suntimes article) and if offered a fair contract he would stay. I know that Boras is his agent and that doesn't bode well, but I would hope that Crede is his own man and can do what he wants and not what Boras thinks he should.

Billy Ashley
04-10-2008, 02:21 PM
I hope Joe has an amazing season and earns a 5/75 deal - if he gets it from us or not - I don't care much. If we don't sign him, I am sure we will eventually find someone else who wants our $.

If Kenny Williams gives him a 15 million dollar contract he should be fired on the spot. If any general manager gives him that contract they should be fired with out pause.

Mike Lowell got a 4 year 50 million dollar deal last off season. He's got a much better track record than Joe Crede

Aramis Ramirez got a 5 year 75 million dollar contract

I'm trying to figure out in what universe is it worth it to pay a guy with a negative OPS+ 15 million dollars a year to man a position that's historically been seen as an offensive position.

kittle42
04-10-2008, 02:26 PM
Again, I'm no cub fan. If you really believe that only a cub fan would believe that Ramirez is a better player than Crede then 90% of baseball would be cub fans, and likely the majority of rational White Sox fans would be Cubs fans.

My argument is based on evidence. Yours is based on cute little nick names like error-miss and pointing out sample sizes of 15 games.

Sorry, chief - I wasn't referring to you. :cool:

I was talking about the posters saying Ramirez is not a top hitter at the 3B position, which is ludicrous.

However, I have watched far more of Ramirez at 3B than I really should be, and, based on a much larger sample size, i.e., the 125+ games I have seen him play at 3B since donning the Cubbie blue, Crede is a superior fielder. Ramirez is average. Not Josh Fields bad, but certainly average.

Jerome
04-10-2008, 02:30 PM
Sox aren't giving him Boras money, nor should they. I love Joe but what's the point of drafting players like Fields if we don't give them a chance. Even if they are butchers with the glove. (I haven't watched Fields play enough 3B to judge his defense, I'm just going by what people are saying here.)

Let Crede play this year, hopefully lead us to the playoffs with his fine defense and clutchness and intangibles and all that other good stuff, and then next year when some bad team overpays for him Fields is ready to step in for very cheap. Joe's defense will be missed but hopefully the money saved is used to supplement the team in some other way.

And are people really rather saying they'd rather have Crede than Aramis Ramirez? C'mon now.

kittle42
04-10-2008, 02:34 PM
And are people really rather saying they'd rather have Crede than Aramis Ramirez? C'mon now.

Very silly, isn't it?

Billy Ashley
04-10-2008, 02:39 PM
Sorry, chief - I wasn't referring to you. :cool:

I was talking about the posters saying Ramirez is not a top hitter at the 3B position, which is ludicrous.

However, I have watched far more of Ramirez at 3B than I really should be, and, based on a much larger sample size, i.e., the 125+ games I have seen him play at 3B since donning the Cubbie blue, Crede is a superior fielder. Ramirez is average. Not Josh Fields bad, but certainly average.


OPS+ for third basemen 2003-2007

A-Rod: 147, 131, 173, 134, 177
Aramis: 102, 138, 135, 126, 129
Cabrera: 106, 130, 151, 159, 150
Lowell: 128, 127, 77, 104, 124
WrightL NA, 118, 139, 133, 150
Crede: 92, 83, 96, 107, 49

So in Crede’s best season he had a higher OPS+ that Ramirez’s worst, Cabrera’s rookie season and the year where Lowell inexplicably got lost for a season in a half.

I was wrong earlier in asserting that Ramirez had always been a good defensive third basemen as he was below average from 2004-2006 but in 2007 he was actually well above average. The guy is elite, of the names above only Wright, Cabrera and Rodriquez are better and they’re likely going to the HoF. Lowell has been very good and is a solid contributor at both hitting, Crede a fantastic fielder, is a bad hitter.

I hit reply to the wrong poster, my bad... this is not directed at you... just a summary of why Crede is not worth 15 mil

FedEx227
04-10-2008, 02:43 PM
Very silly, isn't it?

I don't particularly like either of them, I probably like Crede much more than Aramis, but that's just an absolute joke.

Domeshot17
04-10-2008, 03:09 PM
Sorry, chief - I wasn't referring to you. :cool:

I was talking about the posters saying Ramirez is not a top hitter at the 3B position, which is ludicrous.

However, I have watched far more of Ramirez at 3B than I really should be, and, based on a much larger sample size, i.e., the 125+ games I have seen him play at 3B since donning the Cubbie blue, Crede is a superior fielder. Ramirez is average. Not Josh Fields bad, but certainly average.

Error-Miss has future DH written all over him. He has done a fair job of making his hands less stone-like, but I think a big reason his errors have come down is because they put Lee at first. That said, anyone who thinks the guy isn't a very talented hitter is just flat out wrong.

spiffie
04-10-2008, 03:12 PM
Very silly, isn't it?
The two guys are just in the wrong leagues. Aramis would do fine in the AL where, no matter how much certain posters are setting up a team that is a lock to win the 1965 World Series offense is king, and forfeiting 2-3 positions on the field for defense is a surefire way to end up in the bottom of the division. Whereas Crede, in the NL with its emphasis on defense and pitching, would be a huge addition to a team with his decent power bat and top tier defense.

TDog
04-10-2008, 03:12 PM
I hope Joe has an amazing season and earns a 5/75 deal - if he gets it from us or not - I don't care much. If we don't sign him, I am sure we will eventually find someone else who wants our $.

I can see that happening. Joe Crede worked hard to make himself a good hitter. He worked hard to make himself a great thirdbaseman. There was a time when the Sox organization had such concerns for his defense that he was tried out in left field. As it turned out, he didn't have the depth perception to play fly balls in the outfield and he returned to third to improve his skills there. As hard as Crede has worked, some, including the leach he has for an agent, would say he has earned a big contract.

I could see such a deal. I don't think Crede would ever live up to it. I don't believe Miguel Cabrera will ever come close to living up to his contract. The problem with big contracts is that players are paid for what they have done, ostensibly because their statistics predict future success. Contracts are always exaggerated because teams are in a bidding war for the players their fans want. Teams bid higher than players are worth for different reasons. Arbiters award players contracts based on the out-of-whack market. Teams signed contract extensions based on the out-of-wack market.

Joe Crede is an important part of the White Sox. I certainly would rather have him at third base than Aramis Ramirez, even if I would rather see Ramirez batting cleanup. Crede was an important part of a World Series championship team. I don't care about statistical analysis to the contrary, Ramirez strikes me as a possibly great hitter who is a loser. Frankly, I wouldn't want the Sox to trade Crede for Ramirez because I shudder at the very likely prospect that the Sox will soon not have a great defensive third baseman to help them win.

kittle42
04-10-2008, 03:54 PM
Joe Crede is an important part of the White Sox. I certainly would rather have him at third base than Aramis Ramirez, even if I would rather see Ramirez batting cleanup. Crede was an important part of a World Series championship team. I don't care about statistical analysis to the contrary, Ramirez strikes me as a possibly great hitter who is a loser.

Oh, I just love this line of argument.

So I take it you would have no place on your team for Ernie Banks and Alex Rodriguez? Losers!

Billy Ashley
04-10-2008, 04:01 PM
Oh, I just love this line of argument.

So I take it you would have no place on your team for Ernie Banks and Alex Rodriguez? Losers!

Ty Cobb and Ted Williams were losers as well...

ode to veeck
04-10-2008, 04:09 PM
I can see that happening. Joe Crede worked hard to make himself a good hitter. He worked hard to make himself a great thirdbaseman. There was a time when the Sox organization had such concerns for his defense that he was tried out in left field. As it turned out, he didn't have the depth perception to play fly balls in the outfield and he returned to third to improve his skills there. <...>.

Wow I don't remember that part of his minor league career. I was sitting behind the A's dugout for his 1st start for the Sox at 3rd some years back and he was a vaccumn cleaner from the get go. After three outstanding chances in an early inning the A's fans were asking WHO is That guy!?

TDog
04-10-2008, 05:41 PM
Ty Cobb and Ted Williams were losers as well...

Since you mention it, Ty Cobb did make it to the World Series three times, and when Ted Williams' Red Sox made it to the World Series in an age of Yankee domination, he unfortunately was hit in the elbow by a pitch in a pre-World Series exhibition game. During Williams' career, a lot of baseball writers in Boston publicly labeled him a loser, by the way. But I wouldn't agree with them.

Aramis Ramirez isn't a loser just because his team can't win the World Series. He's demonstrated that he can be a rather lazy ballplayer, although he has some hitting talent. I wouldn't want him playing third base for my team. I've seen enough bad defense at third for the White Sox, and it's bad enough that next year I'm destined to see some more.

I'm not making up the fact that the Sox tried to move Joe Crede to left field in the minor leagues. The organization was looking more at his potential to contribute with the bat than with the glove. Crede worked hard to be the defensive thirdbaseman he is.

I didn't mean to imply that the Sox should reward Crede with the obscene contract he is destined to get if he has a great season. Certainly I don't believe the Sox would have made it, let alone won the World Series with Ramirez at third, but that isn't the point and there is no way to prove or disprove it. Crede's importance to the Sox in 2005, even his possible importance in 2008 doesn't guarantee future importance to any team. Crede in 2005 was the right man in the right place at the right time. If Ramirez had been there instead, it might the White Sox warming up to become the next member of the Century Without Winning a World Series Club.

aryzner
04-11-2008, 08:49 AM
Ty Cobb and Ted Williams were losers as well...

Shoeless Joe Jackson (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000501/): Ty Cobb wanted to play, but none of us could stand the son of a bitch when we were alive, so we told him to stick it!


(sorry couldn't resist, i just thought of that immediately)

kitekrazy
04-12-2008, 08:54 AM
The problem with big contracts is that players are paid for what they have done, ostensibly because their statistics predict future success. Contracts are always exaggerated because teams are in a bidding war for the players their fans want. Teams bid higher than players are worth for different reasons. Arbiters award players contracts based on the out-of-whack market. Teams signed contract extensions based on the out-of-wack market.


I would really like to see a salary cap someday. If Crede was the property of the Pirates you know he will be gone. Since Reinsdorf has the small market mentality we assume every good homegrown player will be gone.
The owners have created this mess anyway. They are held hostage by players who are unproductive with big contracts.

fram40
04-12-2008, 09:23 AM
So I take it you would have no place on your team for Ernie Banks and Alex Rodriguez? Losers!


Not sure I would call Arod a loser. But teams improve their win/loss record the first year he is gone while the team he joins seems to get worse (check out games won in Seattle, Texas, and NYY) The one exception - when he joined the Yankees - became the ultimate collapse when the NYY blew a 3 games to none lead in the 2004 ALCS.

And yes, a lot of things beside Arod changed on all three teams - but the games won stat seems convincing to me. Some players make those around them better players and some don't. I put Arod in the "don't" category. Since he has joined the NYY, the team has made it a habit to underachieve - all teams seem ultimately to underwhelm that Arod plays for.

ode to veeck
04-12-2008, 11:15 AM
Not sure I would call Arod a loser. But teams improve their win/loss record the first year he is gone while the team he joins seems to get worse (check out games won in Seattle, Texas, and NYY) The one exception - when he joined the Yankees - became the ultimate collapse when the NYY blew a 3 games to none lead in the 2004 ALCS.

And yes, a lot of things beside Arod changed on all three teams - but the games won stat seems convincing to me. Some players make those around them better players and some don't. I put Arod in the "don't" category. Since he has joined the NYY, the team has made it a habit to underachieve - all teams seem ultimately to underwhelm that Arod plays for.

the roids just don't come through in the clutch :redneck

fquaye149
04-12-2008, 12:32 PM
Not sure I would call Arod a loser. But teams improve their win/loss record the first year he is gone while the team he joins seems to get worse (check out games won in Seattle, Texas, and NYY) The one exception - when he joined the Yankees - became the ultimate collapse when the NYY blew a 3 games to none lead in the 2004 ALCS.

And yes, a lot of things beside Arod changed on all three teams - but the games won stat seems convincing to me. Some players make those around them better players and some don't. I put Arod in the "don't" category. Since he has joined the NYY, the team has made it a habit to underachieve - all teams seem ultimately to underwhelm that Arod plays for.

So all two times he joined a new team, the team got worse

Except for one of those two times.

Gotcha

TDog
04-12-2008, 07:38 PM
I would really like to see a salary cap someday. If Crede was the property of the Pirates you know he will be gone. Since Reinsdorf has the small market mentality we assume every good homegrown player will be gone.
The owners have created this mess anyway. They are held hostage by players who are unproductive with big contracts.


I won't advocate a salary cap because the notion that any union would agree to a salary cap is ridiculous. The salary caps that exist are there because of the leverage management has exerted over the players. In baseball, this leverage no longer exists. The idea of a salary cap repels me philosophically.

What should keep contracts down is that long-term, big money deals are idiotic from a business perspective. I always cheer for the White Sox, but I cheer especially hard against players who sign for big money and big years in hopes that someday owners will see how such contracts are counterproductive. When that happens, you'll see a market correction, but I don't see that happening. In the baseball free market, there is always at least one wise guy handing out stupid money.

NADA SURF
04-13-2008, 07:11 AM
The Sox want Crede...
Crede wants the Sox...
All he has to do is fire Boras and they'll work a deal.
It's totally up to Crede.
If he's dealt, it will be his fault.

PennStater98r
04-14-2008, 12:17 AM
SO this thread is more about whether the Sox should try to get Crede back or not - and talking A-Ram is something that shouldn't be done b/c it really has nothing to do with the point of the thread - it's a hijack. That said - I am guilty as charged.

So, let's talk about whether A-Ram can hit or not. In my previous post, I believe that I did not claim that he couldn't hit. I claimed he couldn't hit when it counted.

He's a bum with the glove, and his homeruns and contribution at the plate comes often after the Cubs already have the game well in the bag or after they're well out of it.

I know that I can not argue that Crede is a better hitter - but then again I never said that. I said that I'd rather have Crede. I like what he brings to the organization. That said, I also made countless requests on this board for users to see the sense of bringing A-Rod to the White Sox. You see, he brings something that the Sox could have used in the past - a gold glove SS that can hit the hell out of the ball and just might be the best player to ever put on a uniform.

A-Ram on the other hand - please. He couldn't hold M-Cab, D-Wright or A-Rod's jock, and furthermore, you should be ashamed to mention him in the same sentence as Ted Williams, Ernie Banks and Ty Cobb.

Barry Bonds has the best hitting stats to date, and I still think he's a bum (Cobb was too - but at least the ******* was the best player of his time - until Ruth started hitting 7 days a week). Aramis Ramirez is a loser, always has been a loser and always will be a loser that Cub fans will pine over due to not making the Hall of Fame like they do for another Third Baseman that had a few good years in a Cubs uniform - and quite honestly was much better than A-Ram will ever be. I don't dislike A-Ram because he's a Cub. I dislike him because he has hollow Barry Bonds numbers that are meaningful only to one thing - A-Ram's paycheck.

doublem23
04-14-2008, 12:19 AM
:gah:

The nicknmaes! The nicknames!

Nellie_Fox
04-14-2008, 12:24 AM
...his homeruns and contribution at the plate comes often after the Cubs already have the game well in the bag or after they're well out of it. That's a timeless Cubs tradition at third. Eventually he could write a book called "This Old Cub" and get a job going "Aaaaaargh. Oh, no. Jeez" on the radio.

A-Ram on the other hand - please. He couldn't hold M-Cab, D-Wright or A-Rod's jock, and furthermore, you should be ashamed to mention him in the same sentence as Ted Williams, Ernie Banks and Ty Cobb.You mean T-Wil, E-Ba, and T-Co, don't you?????

Jurr
04-14-2008, 12:16 PM
You mean T-Wil, E-Ba, and T-Co, don't you?????
I'm starting to believe that this naming tradition began a LONG time ago with a certain group. That writing looks eerily familiar. :wink:

guillen4life13
04-14-2008, 01:24 PM
I'm starting to believe that this naming tradition began a LONG time ago with a certain group. That writing looks eerily familiar. :wink:

All started with J-Lo.

If Joe Crede keeps playing the way he's playing, he won't get a $15mil/yr contract, but he will get around $12mil/yr.

Then you have to ask yourself, are you happier with Joe at 3rd making that much for a good long time, great defense and arguable clutch performance (his stats in the clutch aren't that great, remember... but he seems to do great in very high pressure situations)? Or would you rather pay Fields a small amount of money and have him under control playing 3B with shoddy defense that hopefully improves but decent hitting?

If Crede walks, then you have a good amount of money opened up to invest in other potential weaknesses. If you sign Crede, then either you keep Fields to fill the gap when Thome leaves, and Fields becomes a 1B, or you trade Fields and get a pretty nice return on him.

KW could find himself with a very tough situation come November.

PennStater98r
04-14-2008, 01:42 PM
You mean T-Wil, E-Ba, and T-Co, don't you?????

:cool:

Should I talk about B-Ru, J-Ja, W-Ma (also known as S-He), H-Aa or M-Ma?

You know though - A-Ram still seems to be the most fitting for the person - I think Carlos Zambrano could also use A-Ram as his nickname.

wsoxgalkelly
04-14-2008, 09:32 PM
Who could possibly hate Crede??

chisoxfanatic
04-14-2008, 09:51 PM
Who could possibly hate Crede??
That's what I'm trying to figure out here. He's clutch at the plate and clutch in the field. He IS Mr. Clutch!

What doesn't Crede do?

spiffie
04-14-2008, 09:56 PM
Who could possibly hate Crede??
I don't think anyone hates Crede. Some of us don't want to spend $60-75 million on him when we have Josh Fields waiting in the wings. Some of us think he might be overrated by Sox fans. But I'm pretty sure that everyone (or at least 99% of us) here likes Joe Crede.

His agent on the other hand....

Frontman
04-15-2008, 12:32 AM
Who could possibly hate Crede??

I do, as he wasn't Clutch today. I mean, what has he done for us THIS week?

:wink:

santo=dorf
04-15-2008, 06:24 AM
How did Mr. Clutch do last night? :makefaces::bitchslap:

Billy Ashley
04-15-2008, 09:37 AM
How did Mr. Clutch do last night? :makefaces::bitchslap:


It would be amusing if the posters here arguing that Crede should get a lucrative extension based on 2 weeks of excellent play started to chastise you for your sample size.