PDA

View Full Version : When Owens and Richar Return


Madvora
04-03-2008, 05:39 PM
Does anyone think this team is going to have a different look down the line?
With two guys that were projected to be starters missing from the lineup, we could have a totally different feel in a few weeks.

I assume Owens will jump right back into that leadoff spot when he returns, but what about Richar? There's a logjam of Uribe/Richar/Ramirez for that 2B spot. I wonder how this is going to work out.

delben91
04-03-2008, 05:49 PM
I'd imagine at least with Richar that he'd spend some time in AAA getting back into a rhythm. Between his visa and back problems he missed most of spring training. Once he's healthy and ready, it'll likely depend on how Alexei is doing. If he's in a groove, Richar might stay at Charlotte. If not, Alexei to AAA and Richar to Chicago.

kittle42
04-03-2008, 05:53 PM
No. Those two guys aren't any good. Thus, the look remains the same.

Jjav829
04-03-2008, 06:02 PM
What should happen:
- Richar starts at 2B.
- Owens stays on the bench for late inning situations where we need that speed to pinch-run for one of our extremely slow hitters (Thome, Konerko, Dye, Pierzynski, Crede).

What likely will happen:
- Uribe will remain the starting 2B, with Richar at AAA.
- Owens will start and leadoff.

kittle42
04-03-2008, 06:19 PM
What likely will happen:
- Uribe will remain the starting 2B, with Richar at AAA.
- Owens will start and leadoff.

Ozzieball. Catch the fever.

Dan Mega
04-03-2008, 06:21 PM
Ozzieball. Catch the fever.

Show the Swagger.

doublem23
04-03-2008, 06:24 PM
Will someone please explain to me the fascination with Richar.

Madvora
04-03-2008, 06:27 PM
What likely will happen:
- Uribe will remain the starting 2B, with Richar at AAA.
- Owens will start and leadoff.

I see this happening. Later in the season when some competing teams are trying to cover for an injury to their SS or 2B, they'll look to pick up Uribe. That'll be the end of him. I can't see him losing that job any other way.
Owens placement in the lineup depends on us winning games or not. If we're playing like we are lately, they'll slip him right in there, but if Anderson or Quentin do something to keep themselves up here, then who knows.

oeo
04-03-2008, 06:29 PM
Will someone please explain to me the fascination with Richar.

Let's see...very fast, good pop, solid defense, and very good plate discipline. He makes the pitcher work, and can go long into an AB. He's a good overall ballplayer.

Can you please explain why you were not impressed by him last year?

Madvora
04-03-2008, 06:30 PM
Will someone please explain to me the fascination with Richar.
I completely agree. I've been baffled with this since last year. He's been talked up so much and I don't understand it. Sure, he may be good eventually, but he only hit in the .230s for us last year. Some people talk about him like he's already proven himself.
As for the point of the thread, I was more concerned about how the team looks now vs. how it might look in about a month or so.

balke
04-03-2008, 06:34 PM
Will someone please explain to me the fascination with Richar.

Very reminiscent of the Sweeneyheads blabbing about THE WAY he strikes out being so GOOD.

Richar, 5 tools just like... oh I don't know Luis Terrero. 5 HR's in 50 AT BATS!??? He MUST BE AMAZING!

Meanwhile the guy hit below the mendoza line in winter ball and is ultimately Juan Uribe with less power and a lesser glove. That is, until he actually shows something other than promise.

Tragg
04-03-2008, 06:37 PM
Richar was good in the minors and as a member of the white sox in a 2 month "trial" he showed 20 HR power, and a lot of plate discipline and ability to work a count.
And that is with zero plate protection mired in the 9 hole, (while the swing at everything young hitters hit atop the order for this field staff).
He has decent speed.
Richar has good potential. He could actually turn into a leadoff hitter - maybe.

And what's the alternative - Uirbe? Please.

btrain929
04-03-2008, 06:38 PM
Will someone please explain to me the fascination with Richar.

Will someone please explain to me the fascination with Uribe?

doublem23
04-03-2008, 06:43 PM
Can you please explain why you were not impressed by him last year?

I think he's got the tools to be a solid player, but it seems like an awful lot of people here believe that we're going to plug him into the line-up and he's going to totally remake our offense.

I mean, if he gets Uribe out of the line-up everyday, maybe that's addition by subtraction, but I don't see him hitting any better than .250/.300/.350 this season. At least he's still got room to grow, but, Uribe does have a lot more power.

kittle42
04-03-2008, 06:49 PM
All offseason, I wondered how people could just matter-of-factly say that Richar and Quentin should be in the lineup every day, almost like it was assumed (like Konerko or Pierzynski, for example).

oeo
04-03-2008, 06:52 PM
I think he's got the tools to be a solid player, but it seems like an awful lot of people here believe that we're going to plug him into the line-up and he's going to totally remake our offense.

I mean, if he gets Uribe out of the line-up everyday, maybe that's addition by subtraction, but I don't see him hitting any better than .250/.300/.350 this season. At least he's still got room to grow, but, Uribe does have a lot more power.

.350 SLG? :scratch:

He slugged better than that in limited action last year, and he really struggled in his first month. I don't think he's the lineup's savior by any means, but he will be bring some much-needed patience and speed to the bottom of the order. I think you're highly underestimating his abilities.

Daver
04-03-2008, 06:53 PM
I mean, if he gets Uribe out of the line-up everyday, maybe that's addition by subtraction, but I don't see him hitting any better than .250/.300/.350 this season. At least he's still got room to grow, but, Uribe does have a lot more power.

That's about what the Sox got out of Durham for years, and Richar can actually play second base, unlike the fireplug.

KRS1
04-03-2008, 07:11 PM
Will someone please explain to me the fascination with Richar.

Will someone explain to me the hate for him? I love his swing, it's very compact, quick, and produces a lot of hard hit liners. His hands through the zone are very strong and fast, and that will/has produced good power and extra base numbers for him. All the bad things I read about his D (mostly about his SS play) came as a shock to me once I actually saw him play, because he looked nothing if not very solid out there at 2b defensively. I know... he sucks because he didn't hit .300 .350 .450 in his first call-up. I, however, feel it is important to look at the other things (besides his numbers) when evaluating a young player in that time.

There is just a lot that I saw to like about him in his short time with the club last year, and I very much would rather he be starting at 2b than Juan. I can't wait to see him relegate Uribe to a job on our bench once he is back and healthy.

Jerko
04-03-2008, 07:14 PM
There's your answer doublem. People like him because he's not Uribe.

Madvora
04-03-2008, 07:17 PM
Will someone please explain to me the fascination with Uribe?
I really don't think anyone is defending Uribe anymore.

AWhiteSoxinNJ
04-03-2008, 07:23 PM
Richar to AAA as he isn't MLB ready, even after the injury.

Jjav829
04-03-2008, 07:27 PM
There's your answer doublem. People like him because he's not Uribe.

Pretty much. In general, fans basically like two things, proven success or potential for success. And in that order. They want a player who has shown that he can produce quality results at the highest level. But if they can't get that, they want a player who at least has the potential to produce quality results at the highest level. The problem is Uribe falls into neither. He has no more upside, and he's shown that he isn't going to produce above average results.

The Richar love basically comes from being tired of watching Uribe play bad baseball.

I know what Juan Uribe can do at this point, and I don't really like it. I don't know that Richar will be any better than Uribe. But I know he can't be that much worse, and he could potentially be a lot better. I'd rather see if Richar can live up to some of his potential rather than watch Uribe give away at-bats with a horrible approach and horrible swings.

doublem23
04-03-2008, 07:28 PM
There's your answer doublem. People like him because he's not Uribe.

That's fair enough... I'm not opposed to sticking him in the line-up just so Uribe's free swinging ass can ride the pine, I'm just expecting him to be another moderate-sized hole in the offense.

oeo
04-03-2008, 07:35 PM
The Richar love basically comes from being tired of watching Uribe play bad baseball.

Considering the two played different positions last year, and up until November when Cabrera was acquired, they would continue to do so...it has nothing to do with Uribe.

I support Danny Richar because I liked what I saw from him in his short time with the team last year.

Jjav829
04-03-2008, 07:42 PM
Considering the two played different positions last year, and up until November when Cabrera was acquired, they would continue to do so...it has nothing to do with Uribe.

I support Danny Richar because I liked what I saw from him in his short time with the team last year.

I'm not saying some people don't simply want Richar because they think he'll be a good player. My response was more based around why the love for Richar has grown without him having done anything since last season, and actually hurting himself by showing up late and, well, hurting himself.

I think at this point even those who weren't completely enamored with Richar based on last season have turned just because Uribe is now starting at second.

oeo
04-03-2008, 07:48 PM
I'm not saying some people don't simply want Richar because they think he'll be a good player. My response was more based around why the love for Richar has grown without him having done anything since last season, and actually hurting himself by showing up late and, well, hurting himself.

I think at this point even those who weren't completely enamored with Richar based on last season have turned just because Uribe is now starting at second.

Fair enough.

Flight #24
04-03-2008, 08:22 PM
I'd bet money that Anderson gets a PH AB or 2 before Owens comes up and then gets sent down. Uribe will get a blow......and Ozuna will play 2B. And having just had a day off, Ramirez will start in CF for 2 days and then I'm guessing Quentin again with BA as a defensive replacement ala today.

What should happen? Quentin playing every day in AAA to get back after the injury and show he's fully healthy. One of Ramirez/Richar doing the same (both are young & raw, I'm willing to give Alexei a chance because of his bat and MIF experience) and the other starting at 2B with Uribe on the bench and Anderson in CF.

Madscout
04-03-2008, 08:40 PM
I'd bet money that Anderson gets a PH AB or 2 before Owens comes up and then gets sent down. Uribe will get a blow......and Ozuna will play 2B. And having just had a day off, Ramirez will start in CF for 2 days and then I'm guessing Quentin again with BA as a defensive replacement ala today.

What should happen? Quentin playing every day in AAA to get back after the injury and show he's fully healthy. One of Ramirez/Richar doing the same (both are young & raw, I'm willing to give Alexei a chance because of his bat and MIF experience) and the other starting at 2B with Uribe on the bench and Anderson in CF.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

TheGipper
04-05-2008, 09:56 AM
I have a buddy that goes to spring training ever year and he told me a story yesterday that I think we all knew but was fun to listen to.

He was waiting to have Alexi autograph a game used bat and it was a split squad game. Cora was coaching one team and was talking to Cooper. My friend said that Crede was frustrating the coaching staff not because he is bad but they really wanted Josh up but can't really afford to do that money wise with both needing at bats. Also over heard that Ozuna will be a Whitesox as long as Ozzie is around since he can play any position, hit and plays hurt and can also produce off the bench late in games.

Heard Cooper make the comment about how frustrated Ozzie is tht Colon isn't a Palehose. He really wanted another innings eater in the rotation and is carry a grudge going into the season because they can't bring him in due to years on the deal and something about the 10/5 rule.

My buddy isn't a Whitesox fan, but rather a Cardinal fan but loves AZ over FL beacuse you get so see more games and different teams in the same day without lots of travel.

oeo
04-05-2008, 09:58 AM
I have a buddy that goes to spring training ever year and he told me a story yesterday that I think we all knew but was fun to listen to.

He was waiting to have Alexi autograph a game used bat and it was a split squad game. Cora was coaching one team and was talking to Cooper. My friend said that Crede was frustrating the coaching staff not because he is bad but they really wanted Josh up but can't really afford to do that money wise with both needing at bats. Also over heard that Ozuna will be a Whitesox as long as Ozzie is around since he can play any position, hit and plays hurt and can also produce off the bench late in games.

Heard Cooper make the comment about how frustrated Ozzie is tht Colon isn't a Palehose. He really wanted another innings eater in the rotation and is carry a grudge going into the season because they can't bring him in due to years on the deal and something about the 10/5 rule.

My buddy isn't a Whitesox fan, but rather a Cardinal fan but loves AZ over FL beacuse you get so see more games and different teams in the same day without lots of travel.

I luuuuuuuuv 'overhearing' conversations.

Juice16
04-05-2008, 10:12 AM
Will someone please explain to me the fascination with Richar.

Thank you. I will take Uribe any day over Richar.

oeo
04-05-2008, 10:29 AM
Thank you. I will take Uribe any day over Richar.

Doublem just asked a question...would you care to explain why you would take Uribe?

beck72
04-05-2008, 10:49 AM
Richar needs to have some 50 ab's in AAA before he even gets a thought of coming up. Though I'd like to see his bat in the #9 hole [with his patience and ability to work counts] rather than Uribe.

Owens will likely come up and Anderson sent down [as long as Quentin stays productive and plays a decent LF]. Or you might see Ramirez go down to AAA and play full-time. With a healthy Quentin, Owens and Swisher, I don't see Ramirez playing much CF. Owens will get most of the AB's vs RHP, though I'd like to see him hit in the #9 spot.

Soxfest
04-05-2008, 08:43 PM
Richar blows he can stay gone!

Craig Grebeck
04-05-2008, 09:34 PM
Richar blows he can stay gone!
Why?

KRS1
04-05-2008, 10:01 PM
Why?

Isn't it obvious? Because he didn't hit .300 .350 .450 in his first call-up.

Tragg
04-06-2008, 08:14 AM
Richar's 2007 OPS (in his first 50 ML games) was higher than Uribe's 2007 OPS (in his fourth full season). And they were both a lot higher than Jerry Owens'. But let's pound on Richar.

Uribe and Owens in the lineup...yea, that's the ticket.

balke
04-06-2008, 09:58 AM
Richar's 2007 OPS (in his first 50 ML games) was higher than Uribe's 2007 OPS (in his fourth full season). And they were both a lot higher than Jerry Owens'. But let's pound on Richar.

Uribe and Owens in the lineup...yea, that's the ticket.

I think Uribe and Richar are about the same player at this point. Except Uribe can play SS well, and probably a better 2B. So, when I see people bag on Uribe, to me they might as well say it for both.

sullythered
04-06-2008, 10:13 AM
I think Uribe and Richar are about the same player at this point. Except Uribe can play SS well, and probably a better 2B. So, when I see people bag on Uribe, to me they might as well say it for both.
I don't think they're even similar players. Richar doesn't look like anywhere near the power threat that Uribe is, nor is he the defensive player. He takes pitches a lot better, and is faster.

Actually I hope both Richar and Owens stay in the minors. I like the lineup as it stands, particularly with Swish leading off.

FedEx227
04-06-2008, 10:13 AM
I think Uribe and Richar are about the same player at this point. Except Uribe can play SS well, and probably a better 2B. So, when I see people bag on Uribe, to me they might as well say it for both.

Richar was a .290/.342/.442 hitter in the minors and had a better year in his rookie season than Uribe has had in quite awhile.

But yeah, top prospect in the Arizona system... he's not good enough for US, we're the Chicago White Sox we have ole' career .253/.294/.427.

Richar is yet another patient hitter, he showed good pop, not as good as Uribe but I think I can take some doubles and the occasional homer over the occasional homer and the strikeouts in between.

Uribe had 25.65 ABs between homers and 4.5 AB between strikeouts.

Richar in his rookie year had 31 ABs between homers and 5.6 AB between strikeouts.

Not to mention a 2.06 K/BB ratio to Uribe's 3.2.

So really, over a full season if Richar does what he did his rookie year is not too much different than Uribe in terms of power, but with a ton more walks, patience and less strikeouts. I'd say count me in.

fquaye149
04-06-2008, 10:16 AM
What should happen:
- Richar starts at 2B.
- Owens stays on the bench for late inning situations where we need that speed to pinch-run for one of our extremely slow hitters (Thome, Konerko, Dye, Pierzynski, Crede).

What likely will happen:
- Uribe will remain the starting 2B, with Richar at AAA.
- Owens will start and leadoff.

:(

Brian26
04-06-2008, 10:57 AM
Doublem just asked a question...would you care to explain why you would take Uribe?

I'll take Uribe simply for his laser-beam arm at second base. His arm will save more games for the Sox than any perceived offensive advantage anyone sees with Richar.

FedEx227
04-06-2008, 11:04 AM
Because nothing is more important at 2B then a good arm. :rolleyes:

Elephant
04-06-2008, 11:06 AM
I'll take Uribe simply for his laser-beam arm at second base. His arm will save more games for the Sox than any perceived offensive advantage anyone sees with Richar.

Possibly. Although with the way Uribe's hitting (and has hit), Richar probably deserves a good shot. Richar would have to really outhit Uribe.

Right now we have a RF arm in left and a SS arm at second. Those are definite advantages. Quentin's throw yesterday saved us a run. Inge's 3 run bomb would've been a slam.

Brian26
04-06-2008, 11:13 AM
Because nothing is more important at 2B then a good arm. :rolleyes:

Right, shortstop is more important.

There were two plays yesterday that I saw where the second baseman's arm could have influenced the result of the game. Ozuna flipped a throw after going to his right, and the Tiger runner beat it out at first. Then late in the game, Uribe threw a laser to beat a guy on a close play.

Jjav829
04-06-2008, 11:26 AM
:(

See, even I agree that Ozzie is stubborn and prone to making bad decisions.:smile:

The difference? I'm willing to acknowledge that I may be wrong in my prediction and will wait until the move actually happens, rather than ripping Ozzie for something that hasn't happened yet.

PalehosePlanet
04-06-2008, 02:30 PM
By the time Richar is healthy and gets his rehab work in, it will be June 1st; probably May 1st for Owens.

I think Ozzie and KW will play it by ear when the time comes. I really don't think there are any set plans.

However, if and when Owens does come back, barring injury, he'll be on the bench.

fquaye149
04-06-2008, 03:15 PM
See, even I agree that Ozzie is stubborn and prone to making bad decisions.:smile:

The difference? I'm willing to acknowledge that I may be wrong in my prediction and will wait until the move actually happens, rather than ripping Ozzie for something that hasn't happened yet.

I'm not sure why you think that's a preferable decision:redneck

Lefty34
04-07-2008, 12:13 AM
Right, shortstop is more important.

There were two plays yesterday that I saw where the second baseman's arm could have influenced the result of the game. Ozuna flipped a throw after going to his right, and the Tiger runner beat it out at first. Then late in the game, Uribe threw a laser to beat a guy on a close play.

Although I am not a fan of 2K Sports' recent attempt to move to sabermetrics with its introduction of Win Percentage Added for each play, I DO see your point (check out MLB 2K8 if you don't know what I mean).

However, although I didn't see the play I do know that "flipping" a throw is done to cut out the time needed to properly gather and "throw" the ball to the intended target. The fact that this flip happened seems to indicate that the play was going to be close either way (regardless of a throw or flip) and the runner was more likely to beat the play out anyway. Thus, this is not indicative of Uribe's/Richar's ability at 2B.

Also, the term "laser" is used rather loosely with regards to middle infielders. How exactly did Uribe throw a "laser" and furthermore, how does Uribe have a "laser" arm? Does each throw leave his hand at 300 million meters per second (the speed of light, or "laser", in a vacuum)? The fact is that a fielder's arm at 2B is way down the list of defensive characteristics sought in a 2B, mostly because plays like the ones described above are not as common as those regularly involving the 2B.

Uribe does have a good arm, and although Richar's arm may not be of the same quality, that fact is able to be overlooked when taking the 2B's range, anticipation and offensive abilities into account. I would much rather have Richar's speed, walks and ability to work the count than Uribe's [consistently] pudgy demeanor and "strike out or home run" (WAY more strike outs) production at the plate.

scope1200
04-07-2008, 12:35 AM
Owens will get most of the AB's vs RHP, though I'd like to see him hit in the #9 spot.

There is no way that you sit CQ on the bench the way he is playing now.

This is actually a fear I have that Guillen would let Owens play bc of his infatuation for fast lead off men who cant get on base and the team slumps with the loss of production from CQ.

fquaye149
04-07-2008, 07:56 AM
Also, the term "laser" is used rather loosely with regards to middle infielders. How exactly did Uribe throw a "laser" and furthermore, how does Uribe have a "laser" arm? Does each throw leave his hand at 300 million meters per second (the speed of light, or "laser", in a vacuum)? The fact is that a fielder's arm at 2B is way down the list of defensive characteristics sought in a 2B, mostly because plays like the ones described above are not as common as those regularly involving the 2B.
.

I know you're kidding but here's the fact: "Laser arm" refers to the fact that, like a laser beam, balls thrown by a laser-armed player stay straight and level--like a laserbeam--as opposed to arcing.

Uribe has a laser-arm unlike pretty much everyone else on this team.

Is that the most important thing in the world at 2B? No. But it's better than not having it. Plays up the middle, double plays, and relay throws (as seen in yesterday's game) all demand at least a moderately strong throwing arm