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krohnjw
04-03-2008, 12:46 AM
Steve Stone mentioned during the broadcast about the development system of the Indians - that they make sure that at every level of the minors (from rookie ball to AAA) that everything is taught the same way. That way when the players come up they are ready to play and know what is expected of their play.

He cited this as a reason that the Indians have brought up so much good young talent. He stated that Shapiro was the reason for this and something he brought from his father's days with the Orioles (something the Orioles have since quit doing and have seen their farm system suffer as a result).

Does anyone have a reason that *any* club would *not* take this approach? This seems like a pretty darn good idea and that it would develop the most consistent players assuming the methods are solid.

Does anyone know if the Sox employ this on the hitting side (I believe that coop has dictated a single pitching philosophy)?

Thoughts?

And by the way - Stone makes the broadcast on the radio quite enjoyable for a car ride during the game - he even keeps Farmio in check so he doesn't ramble too much. :gulp: to Steve Stone.

michned
04-03-2008, 01:05 AM
I can't speak for the White Sox but many organizations do it that way. Recently a Diamondbacks coach held a Little League Coaches Clinic for us and he mentioned the D'backs organization has one and only one way to teach all the various fundamentals. He also mentioned the teaching philosophies vary greatly by organization (i.e. in the D'backs organization at levels AA and below, batters are required to choke up when they have two strikes).

FedEx227
04-03-2008, 01:10 AM
Oakland is a great example as well, both hitters and pitchers are taught the same things no matter what level they are at.

RockJock07
04-03-2008, 01:41 AM
Oakland is a great example as well, both hitters and pitchers are taught the same things no matter what level they are at.

Yeah, Oakland is really solid. I was an intern for their singe A club, the Kane County Cougars. (Where players like Dontrell Willis, Miguel Cabrera played, KKC used to be the marlins class A team) They worked on fundamentals for about 3 hours everyday before games. Even the guys that came in from the short season leagues knew what to do, it was really impressive to see.

southsideirish71
04-03-2008, 01:47 AM
The Twins do the same thing. Every level has similar instruction, every level teaches aggressive baseball and baseball the right way.

How many long looping swings have we seen come up. How many people who don't know how to run the bases, or how to hit in situations. Hell how many people on the major league team know how to lay down a bunt. I believe our inability to produce major league talent, not on our drafts but more on what we do from the time they are drafted till they get to AA.

Think about it this way. Josh Fields, our top hitting prospect. Made it all the way to the major leagues, and the coaching staff realized that he was using what turns out to be a oversized glove similar to an outfielders glove. So our top hitting prospect, who has problems with fielding was able to bypass all of our minor league instructors with the super sized glove.

DumpJerry
04-03-2008, 08:49 AM
The Twins do the same thing. Every level has similar instruction, every level teaches aggressive baseball and baseball the right way.
AJ has talked about the Twins' "system" which enables them to plug in a AAA guy if someone goes down with an injury with relative ease since the guy has been taught to play in the same manner as the wounded soldier. This is how the Twins always seem to hang around despite losing serious FAs year after year.

Carolina Kenny
04-03-2008, 09:12 AM
I believe this concept started way back with the Dodgers.

SoxxoS
04-03-2008, 09:28 AM
Not saying its not a good idea - But you cant turn a turd into a diamond - And its not like players are leaving the Sox and having great success - Then I think there would really be something to this.

I just think the drafting has sucked horribly for the most part.

Frater Perdurabo
04-03-2008, 09:28 AM
If the Sox don't do this, it's a damning indictment of their entire organization.

Frater Perdurabo
04-03-2008, 09:29 AM
Josh Fields, our top hitting prospect. Made it all the way to the major leagues, and the coaching staff realized that he was using what turns out to be a oversized glove similar to an outfielders glove. So our top hitting prospect, who has problems with fielding was able to bypass all of our minor league instructors with the super sized glove.

:o: :angry: :scratch: :(: Where did you hear/read/see this? If true, this is inexcusable.

JNS
04-03-2008, 10:04 AM
If the Sox don't do this, it's a damning indictment of their entire organization.

Does anyone know if they do? It may be the Dodgers who invented this method, but the Twinkies have been using it to their advantage for years.

So - lots of talk about what other teams do - what about the Sox?

KW canned Duane Shaffer over bad drafting, but what about the teaching aspect of the system? It's clear that it has been a somewhat barren system for a number of years now, but it amazes me that none of the close observers have offered any analysis of why this is.

If the Josh Fields story is true, it's yet another nail in the GMs coffin as far as I'm concerned - he's been around seven years now and if he's nominally in charge of a system that allows that sort of thing to occur, it's a huge indictment. If he has been ignoring the system and leaving it to someone else, it's worse. I don't think he's ignored it - he always seems to be in Charlotte or Birmingham or someplace checking out the talent or lack thereof.

Anyhow, seeing as a bunch of posts here discuss what other teams do, it's a bit odd that the Sox master method (so to speak) doesn't seem to be well known.

Is that because there is none?

Flight #24
04-03-2008, 11:27 AM
One of my big issues with KW is just this. He prattles on about fundamentals, but that's completely driven by the organization because fundamentals are IMO not like athleticism. They are learned through teaching, repetition, and making sure guys know them before they get moved along (i.e. incentives).

That the Sox have so consistently lacked guys who can execute fundamentals tells me that their system has not been structured to develop them. Which in turn tells me that Kenny's talking out of his rectum when he says how important they are to him.

And it's not a stretch to say that if you have talent but don't add at least some fundamentals to it, that talent is more likely to be wasted. Which would explain some highly touted guys flopping and the Sox generally not developing strong contributors. They leave and go elsewhere, but by then aren't they already at the stage where they need to produce at the majors and generally don't go back to rookie ball or wherever to learn the basics?

Oh yeah, and that strategy of not drafting the best player because they want a big contract, that's part of it too.:mad:

SoxyStu
04-03-2008, 12:04 PM
I must have a disconnect somewhere. If everything is taught the same way, then there is not a snowball's chance in hell that all players learn it--anywhere, any organization, any time.

We all should see an increase in execution if they're consistently taught the same substance, though; or, we should see new players who can show execution.

kitekrazy
04-03-2008, 06:04 PM
I just think the drafting has sucked horribly for the most part.

I think that has a lot more to do with it. Baseball is not a rocket science. I bet the Twins draft guys who already have a sense of how the game is played.

Daver
04-03-2008, 06:08 PM
Anyhow, seeing as a bunch of posts here discuss what other teams do, it's a bit odd that the Sox master method (so to speak) doesn't seem to be well known.

Is that because there is none?

I know the Sox system, and they do have one, if you can hit you get moved to the next level, regardless of the rest of your game.

kitekrazy
04-03-2008, 06:21 PM
One of my big issues with KW is just this. He prattles on about fundamentals, but that's completely driven by the organization because fundamentals are IMO not like athleticism. They are learned through teaching, repetition, and making sure guys know them before they get moved along (i.e. incentives).

That the Sox have so consistently lacked guys who can execute fundamentals tells me that their system has not been structured to develop them. Which in turn tells me that Kenny's talking out of his rectum when he says how important they are to him.

And it's not a stretch to say that if you have talent but don't add at least some fundamentals to it, that talent is more likely to be wasted. Which would explain some highly touted guys flopping and the Sox generally not developing strong contributors. They leave and go elsewhere, but by then aren't they already at the stage where they need to produce at the majors and generally don't go back to rookie ball or wherever to learn the basics?

Oh yeah, and that strategy of not drafting the best player because they want a big contract, that's part of it too.:mad:

The fundamentals need to be there to begin with. Thanks to the steroid era and fantasy leagues fans worship the home run and kids don't think fundamentals are necessary.
The Sox seem to have their fair share of players who do one thing well and at the same time one thing really bad. Even if they don't draft them, they get them from trades. Uribe and McDougal come to mind.

Flight #24
04-03-2008, 08:25 PM
The fundamentals need to be there to begin with. Thanks to the steroid era and fantasy leagues fans worship the home run and kids don't think fundamentals are necessary.
The Sox seem to have their fair share of players who do one thing well and at the same time one thing really bad. Even if they don't draft them, they get them from trades. Uribe and McDougal come to mind.

That would be prevalent for all teams, but the Sox seem to be particularly bad at it, which makes me think it's more organizational than anything. That's supported by comments like Daver's.

Daver
04-03-2008, 08:29 PM
That would be prevalent for all teams, but the Sox seem to be particularly bad at it, which makes me think it's more organizational than anything. That's supported by comments like Daver's.

I was given that information by an ex Sox scout that now is a part time scout for the Twins.

FedEx227
04-04-2008, 01:31 AM
I was given that information by an ex Sox scout that now is a part time scout for the Twins.

A lot of teams unfortunately work the way the Sox work and most of those teams don't have long-term success.

The Cubs are a great example. Felix Pie has NO idea how to lay down a bunt, none what so ever... but that didn't stop him from climbing their ladder.

Geovanny Soto, great offensive catcher... throws from his knees, never seems comfortable throwing, apparently calls a so-so game... yet he hits, so here he is in the majors.

And people the Twins know what they are doing, yes they draft good players off the bat, but it takes great teaching to make great players, the fact that what another poster said they don't skip a beat when they lose someone. This is a team that has made MLB players out of Matt LeCroy and Nick Punto among others. They are similar to Oakland in the sense that they really don't care if you "LOOK" like a ballplayer or have the "TOOLS" of a ballplayer... can you do the fundamentals, can you work counts, can you play defense, can you bunt, can you hit to the side you need too.

LITTLE NELL
04-04-2008, 06:22 AM
I go back to something Eddie Einhorn said when he and JR bought the Sox. He stated that the minor leagues were not that important and that the colleges and free agency were the future of baseball. I dont know if that philosophy still prevails in the organization but it makes you wonder.

Dolanski
04-04-2008, 10:57 AM
And people the Twins know what they are doing, yes they draft good players off the bat, but it takes great teaching to make great players, the fact that what another poster said they don't skip a beat when they lose someone. This is a team that has made MLB players out of Matt LeCroy and Nick Punto among others. They are similar to Oakland in the sense that they really don't care if you "LOOK" like a ballplayer or have the "TOOLS" of a ballplayer... can you do the fundamentals, can you work counts, can you play defense, can you bunt, can you hit to the side you need too.

Before we go gaga over the great and mighty Piranhas, might I remind everyone that this is the same organization that gave up on David Ortiz and spent his entire career there trying to turn him into a slap hitter when he was a slugger. The point is, even great players can slip through the cracks in a great system...

FedEx227
04-04-2008, 11:59 AM
Before we go gaga over the great and mighty Piranhas, might I remind everyone that this is the same organization that gave up on David Ortiz and spent his entire career there trying to turn him into a slap hitter when he was a slugger. The point is, even great players can slip through the cracks in a great system...

Oh no doubt. But you're using one example but look at these players over their past few years that are by all regards nothing players that were everyday guys for them:

Matt LeCroy, Dustan Mohr, Bobby Kielty, Lew Ford, Nick Punto, Jason Kubel, Jason Tyner...

Jurr
04-04-2008, 12:08 PM
Oh no doubt. But you're using one example but look at these players over their past few years that are by all regards nothing players that were everyday guys for them:

Matt LeCroy, Dustan Mohr, Bobby Kielty, Lew Ford, Nick Punto, Jason Kubel, Jason Tyner...
Hell, even Luis Rivas, who is garbage in Pittsburgh was good enough to start on that team due to his glove. Even he made enough plays to win games.

I'm still very interested in seeing how things go with the Twins now that the old Tom Kelly guys are getting filtered out of the system. Tom Kelly had that system put into place, and it carried right over into the Gardenhire system.

What I admired with the Twins was not only the player development, but the ability to sell at the right time. If you can't pick up the premier free agent, trade a player like Pierzynski and pick up Liriano and Nathan. Ride them as far as you can then get some more talent. It was absolutely bananas how they made that work.

FedEx227
04-04-2008, 12:25 PM
Hell, even Luis Rivas, who is garbage in Pittsburgh was good enough to start on that team due to his glove. Even he made enough plays to win games.

I'm still very interested in seeing how things go with the Twins now that the old Tom Kelly guys are getting filtered out of the system. Tom Kelly had that system put into place, and it carried right over into the Gardenhire system.

What I admired with the Twins was not only the player development, but the ability to sell at the right time. If you can't pick up the premier free agent, trade a player like Pierzynski and pick up Liriano and Nathan. Ride them as far as you can then get some more talent. It was absolutely bananas how they made that work.

And now you just kinda sit back and wonder if it was just a lucky 10 years or if they can keep this going. Gomez already looks like he's going to be pretty good for them, but these next few years will be telling they lost a ton of talent.

Dolanski
04-04-2008, 01:25 PM
Oh no doubt. But you're using one example but look at these players over their past few years that are by all regards nothing players that were everyday guys for them:

Matt LeCroy, Dustan Mohr, Bobby Kielty, Lew Ford, Nick Punto, Jason Kubel, Jason Tyner...

I think the White Sox would be wise to put together a system much like the Twinkies. But even the best minor league systems can miss out on a prime player.

Dolanski
04-04-2008, 01:27 PM
What I admired with the Twins was not only the player development, but the ability to sell at the right time. If you can't pick up the premier free agent, trade a player like Pierzynski and pick up Liriano and Nathan. Ride them as far as you can then get some more talent. It was absolutely bananas how they made that work.

I am beginning to wonder about their ability to sell and buy at the right time. They got pennies on the dollar for Santana, and signing Nathan to that contract seems like a mistake. It will be interesting to see how the prospects they got develop and how Nathan works out.