PDA

View Full Version : Bartman


LITTLE NELL
04-01-2008, 05:03 PM
Just read on ESPN that Moises Alou states that he would not have caught the Bartman ball, why didnt he come clean that night and saved that kid all that grief.

MCHSoxFan
04-01-2008, 05:07 PM
Just read on ESPN that Moises Alou states that he would not have caught the Bartman ball, why didnt he come clean that night and saved that kid all that grief.

What an idiot! He waited this long?!?! :angry: Ruined a person life! :(:

spawn
04-01-2008, 05:13 PM
What an idiot! He waited this long?!?! :angry: Ruined a person life! :(:
It wouldn't have mattered if he came clean that night. Cubs fans still would've blamed Bartman. I mean, so what Alex Gonzalez fumbled a sure double play grounder that would've gotten them out of the inning, or that Kerry Wood couldn't get them the win the next day. The Cubs are cursed. Why settle on reality when you have a legitimate scapegoat?

Boondock Saint
04-01-2008, 05:14 PM
I'm sure Bartman isn't losing sleep over it anymore. Yes, he must have had an awful month or so after the event, but I'm sure he understands that the Cubs screwed up that game, not him.

RedHeadPaleHoser
04-01-2008, 05:18 PM
I'm sure Bartman isn't losing sleep over it anymore. Yes, he must have had an awful month or so after the event, but I'm sure he understands that the Cubs screwed up that game, not him.

And I am also sure every time this scab gets picked, he gets a ration of **** indirectly about it. ESPN will pick at this wound all season long.

Madvora
04-01-2008, 05:23 PM
I've seen that a million times like everybody else. He seemed like he had that ball pretty easy to me. Looked like it was definitely going in the mitt.

voodoochile
04-01-2008, 05:25 PM
How come we're not ripping on that guy in the Sox sweatshirt who batted the 3-run homer back onto the field in the Civil Rights game. The minute I saw it happen, I thought of Bartman...:D:

Fenway
04-01-2008, 05:34 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3324343

And now Alou and Louis Castillo are teammates :lol:

Frontman
04-01-2008, 05:41 PM
And I am also sure every time this scab gets picked, he gets a ration of **** indirectly about it. ESPN will pick at this wound all season long.

They already did. Heck, his name is on the cover of this months issue of ESPN: The Magazine.

eriqjaffe
04-01-2008, 05:53 PM
I would just like to take a moment to remind you all that Moises Alou pees on his hands.

MarySwiss
04-01-2008, 06:23 PM
I would just like to take a moment to remind you all that Moises Alou pees on his hands.
No reminder needed. When I see the name Moises Alou, it's the first thing I think of!

LoveYourSuit
04-01-2008, 06:27 PM
The Bartman Dan Patrick Interview on TV was priceless..... I need to pull that one out tonight.

grv1974
04-01-2008, 06:39 PM
Has anybody ever noticed in the video of that play that the guy sitting next to Bartman ALSO tried catching the ball, yet, ironically, he was the first to point Bartman out to the angry mob behind them? (as if to say, "Yep, here's your culprit.")

Woofer
04-01-2008, 07:04 PM
Ahhhh, what happy memories!

WhiteSox5187
04-01-2008, 07:04 PM
I didn't think that was an easy play for Alou, never mind the fact that Alou WAS REACHING INTO THE STANDS, so Bartman had every right to that ball but it's convient for Cubs fans to forget the booted double play ball that didn't result in any outs or game seven. My cousin knew Bartman and apparently there wasn't a single bigger Cub fan and the poor guy gets all the blame for something that wasn't his fault. Seeing the Cubs' fans reaction to that play is shameful as well. Before the inning was over they were pelting him with ****. Ozzie (who was a coach then) said it best "You had your chance, your players blew it and you blame a fan. Too bad! Too bad!"

oeo
04-01-2008, 07:05 PM
Has anybody ever noticed in the video of that play that the guy sitting next to Bartman ALSO tried catching the ball, yet, ironically, he was the first to point Bartman out to the angry mob behind them? (as if to say, "Yep, here's your culprit.")

He wasn't the only one...everyone near it was reaching for the ball (which of course is going to happen). Bartman was unfortunate enough for it to hit his hand.

WhiteSox5187
04-01-2008, 07:07 PM
How come we're not ripping on that guy in the Sox sweatshirt who batted the 3-run homer back onto the field in the Civil Rights game. The minute I saw it happen, I thought of Bartman...:D:
Rumor has it that that was DumpJerry, doing that might get you banned! :redneck

Also shame on the Tribune for then publishing the guy's name!

Fenway
04-01-2008, 07:20 PM
Rumor has it that that was DumpJerry, doing that might get you banned! :redneck

Also shame on the Tribune for then publishing the guy's name!

Actually it was the Sun-Times that outed Bartman with where he worked and lived.

captainclutch24
04-01-2008, 08:27 PM
Alex Gonzalez cost the Cubs the world series anyways. Way to boot a routine double play.

soxrme
04-01-2008, 08:38 PM
The next ball Alou catches reaching into the stands will be the first ball he ever caught. He was full of crap that night and still is. As has been mentioned, double play botched, manager with no brains, and by the way a out of control pitcher who needed to be settled down. Thank God for all of that.

MCHSoxFan
04-01-2008, 09:05 PM
It wouldn't have mattered if he came clean that night. Cubs fans still would've blamed Bartman. I mean, so what Alex Gonzalez fumbled a sure double play grounder that would've gotten them out of the inning, or that Kerry Wood couldn't get them the win the next day. The Cubs are cursed. Why settle on reality when you have a legitimate scapegoat?

I know. It does seem like Cubs fans have an excuse for EVERYTHING.

Railsplitter
04-01-2008, 09:05 PM
On seeing that clip, I knew Alou hadn't the slightest chance of coming up with the ball.

C-Dawg
04-01-2008, 09:43 PM
Has anybody ever noticed in the video of that play that the guy sitting next to Bartman ALSO tried catching the ball, yet, ironically, he was the first to point Bartman out to the angry mob behind them? (as if to say, "Yep, here's your culprit.")

Yep, the guy in the grey jacket just about reaches over Bartman trying to get the ball, but then when he realizes all the cameras are on them he points at Bartman. Classy.

areilly
04-01-2008, 11:22 PM
Actually it was the Sun-Times that outed Bartman with where he worked and lived.

I worked at the same company as Bartman at the time, and I can assure you that was easily the least productive day at any firm ever in the history of American businesses. Office gossip spreads fast, but never faster than when everyone found out the guy who caught the foul ball walked among us.

Ziggy S
04-01-2008, 11:38 PM
This is just more the reason I'm glad I'm a Sox fan and that I will never look fondly on the "Cubbies" as long as I live. It took five ****ing years for a player on the hallowed franchise in 2K3 to apoligize to old Stevie? The only curses that exist for us White Sox fans are the ones that are let loose from our mouths (at least mine).

Frontman
04-02-2008, 12:36 AM
This is just more the reason I'm glad I'm a Sox fan and that I will never look fondly on the "Cubbies" as long as I live. It took five ****ing years for a player on the hallowed franchise in 2K3 to apoligize to old Stevie? The only curses that exist for us White Sox fans are the ones that are let loose from our mouths (at least mine).

I need no more reason than the fact that as a fanbase, they is crazy.

"Oh, its about the experience. The neighborhood around the park. The Ivy. The tradition. Singing "take me out to the ballgame" during the 7th, blah, blah, blah."

I always say in reply to that whole schtick.

"You are aware that a baseball park is meant for a baseball game to be played, right? And the point of playing said game is for the team to win, right?"

WhiteSox5187
04-02-2008, 01:03 AM
I need no more reason than the fact that as a fanbase, they is crazy.

"Oh, its about the experience. The neighborhood around the park. The Ivy. The tradition. Singing "take me out to the ballgame" during the 7th, blah, blah, blah."

I always say in reply to that whole schtick.

"You are aware that a baseball park is meant for a baseball game to be played, right? And the point of playing said game is for the team to win, right?"
I got into an arguement with a Cubs fan yesterday where she made the point that "US Cellular is the show girls of stadiums, like they have fireworks there..." so no, I don't think they are aware of the point of a stadium is to play the game in and they CERTAINLY aren't aware that the point of the game is to win.

Frontman
04-02-2008, 09:34 AM
I got into an arguement with a Cubs fan yesterday where she made the point that "US Cellular is the show girls of stadiums, like they have fireworks there..." so no, I don't think they are aware of the point of a stadium is to play the game in and they CERTAINLY aren't aware that the point of the game is to win.


She honestly said something about the fireworks? That's funny, as most ballparks now have fireworks displays. The Sox just had the first (and the greatest) "exploding scoreboard."

Juice16
04-02-2008, 09:45 AM
I always thought Alou had no chance in catching it. Even with him admitting it, the pole on Suntimes.com shows the majority of, i'm assuming cub fans, think Alou would have caught it, if not for Bartman. I wonder what it is like to live in an alternate reality known as Cubdom.

spawn
04-02-2008, 09:58 AM
I need no more reason than the fact that as a fanbase, they is crazy.

"Oh, its about the experience. The neighborhood around the park. The Ivy. The tradition. Singing "take me out to the ballgame" during the 7th, blah, blah, blah."

I always say in reply to that whole schtick.

"You are aware that a baseball park is meant for a baseball game to be played, right? And the point of playing said game is for the team to win, right?"
My stepson, who is in 8th grade was watching the Cubs/Sox game that was played in Tucson with me. He says he hopes the Sox win. I said it's ST, so it really doesn't matter. He says he wants them to win because his Cubs fans at school will be all over him if the Cubs win. Then he tells me this gem: his buddies said winning the World Series doesn't mean anything, and that it's not necessary for the Cubs to win it. I told him to ask them why do they even play the games then? I'm thinking these kids will grow out of that...or maybe they'll end up being one of the Cubbie faithful blowing off work to get drunk in the bleachers...:redneck

PatK
04-02-2008, 10:14 AM
I got into an arguement with a Cubs fan yesterday where she made the point that "US Cellular is the show girls of stadiums, like they have fireworks there..."

I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather have a show girl than a broken down, beat up old hag.

voodoochile
04-02-2008, 10:21 AM
I always thought Alou had no chance in catching it. Even with him admitting it, the pole on Suntimes.com shows the majority of, i'm assuming cub fans, think Alou would have caught it, if not for Bartman. I wonder what it is like to live in an alternate reality known as Cubdom.

It's easier to hold on to the lie than to admit your team simply sucked majorly in the final few innings of that game, ultimately melting down to give up 8 runs in the inning - see the scoreboard in the banner at the top of this forum - and then Kid K by his own words choking in game 7.

Look at the Sox fans in the post game thread after Monday here at WSI. There is simply no way to convince some of them that the umpires didn't cost the Sox that game. That's what happens when you are a fan. You become so biased, you cannot see objectively. It can't be that the great, lovable and amazing flubbies choked, no... it has to be Bartman.

Carolina Kenny
04-02-2008, 10:27 AM
I've seen that a million times like everybody else. He seemed like he had that ball pretty easy to me. Looked like it was definitely going in the mitt.

I agree. I think Alou is being disingenous. Alou had a chance at that ball. The pictures/video of the play make that conclusion clear. Alou's reaction to play also make that clear.

russ99
04-02-2008, 10:29 AM
Has anybody ever noticed in the video of that play that the guy sitting next to Bartman ALSO tried catching the ball, yet, ironically, he was the first to point Bartman out to the angry mob behind them? (as if to say, "Yep, here's your culprit.")

:rolling:

Gotta watch that again! Not that I haven't cracked up in glee hundreds of times over that tape. This morning too..

ChiTownTrojan
04-02-2008, 10:30 AM
How come we're not ripping on that guy in the Sox sweatshirt who batted the 3-run homer back onto the field in the Civil Rights game. The minute I saw it happen, I thought of Bartman...:D:
Haha, yeah, I thought of Bartman too. But I don't think that guy even touched the ball, it just took a weird bounce off the seat.

voodoochile
04-02-2008, 10:47 AM
Haha, yeah, I thought of Bartman too. But I don't think that guy even touched the ball, it just took a weird bounce off the seat.

It happened pretty fast, but I thought he knocked it back on the field with his left hand when he tried to snag it.

PatK
04-02-2008, 11:20 AM
I agree. I think Alou is being disingenous. Alou had a chance at that ball. The pictures/video of the play make that conclusion clear. Alou's reaction to play also make that clear.

I'm one of those that thinks he's only really saying that because he's sick of people asking him about it.

UofCSoxFan
04-02-2008, 11:30 AM
On seeing that clip, I knew Alou hadn't the slightest chance of coming up with the ball.

I have always said this.

The ball may have hit Bartman in the face if he didn't reach for it. It definitely is reasonable to expect him to risk that.

I don't blame Alou for trying to sell the call to the ump, but his comments after the game only compounded the blame on Bartman. It also didn't help the team prepare for game 7 at all either. Also, why Alex Gonzalez gets a pass when his play mirrored Bill Buckners is beyond me. I mean both occured in game 6 (NOT 7), both were routine plays that would have clinched or practically clinched the series for "cursed" teams. Yet, I'd bet half the Cubs fans out there don't remember who Alex Gonzalez is and Bartman has to go into seclusion. Hey if he ever wants to go to a baseball game, I think the Sox should give him front row seats...the guy did nothing wrong.

CubKilla
04-02-2008, 11:35 AM
The Bartman Dan Patrick Interview on TV was priceless..... I need to pull that one out tonight.

That was "Captain Janks" from "The Howard Stern Show" fame.

Dan Patrick won as "F-Emmy" as a result of that call and was in the studio to accept with Janks.

UofCSoxFan
04-02-2008, 11:40 AM
Another point that is NEVER made, if in the umpire's opinion, Alou would have cuaght the ball, he still could have ruled it an out, even if it was in the stands. I remember the Sox lost a game on the final out on a call like this either last year or 2 years ago. There also was a play a while ago where the first baseman had his glove wrapped around the hands of a fan that caught the ball and an out was awarded.

An objective umpire, who was 5 feet away, did not think Alou would have clearly caught it. So either he is to blame for making a bad noncall or Alou wouldn't have caught it anyway.

esbrechtel
04-02-2008, 12:46 PM
Why is there 3 pages of posts on this? It was 5 years ago....:dunno:

FedEx227
04-02-2008, 12:49 PM
Why is there 3 pages of posts on this? It was 5 years ago....:dunno:

You might want to do yourself a favor and read the original thread topic.

Here's the series of events that are all apparently Bartman's fault:

Mordecai flies out 1-out, 3-0 Cubs
Pierre double 1-out, 3-0 Cubs
Eight pitch Castillo at-bat leads to Bartman play, Prior then WALKS Castillo on a wild-pitch allowing Pierre to advance to third 1-0, 3-0 Cubs
Pudge gets a single, scoring Pierre 1-out, 3-1 Cubs
Cabrera hits a grounder to Alex Gonzalez, error, bases loaded 1-out, 3-1 Cubs
Lee doubles, scoring Castillo and Pudge 1-out, 3-3 Tie
Farnsworth in the game, walks Lowell to load bases 1-out, 3-3 Tie
Conine hits a sac-fly, Cabrera scores 2-outs, 4-3 Marlins
Farnsworth walks Hollandsworth 2-outs, 4-3 Marlins
Mordecai double, scores all runners 2-outs, 7-3 Marlins
Remlinger in the game, Pierre single, scoring Mordecai 8-3 Marlins

Yup, it's all Bartman's fault.

Oh yeah and there was a Game 7. Get real.

pierzynski07
04-02-2008, 01:17 PM
Another point that is NEVER made, if in the umpire's opinion, Alou would have cuaght the ball, he still could have ruled it an out, even if it was in the stands. I remember the Sox lost a game on the final out on a call like this either last year or 2 years ago. There also was a play a while ago where the first baseman had his glove wrapped around the hands of a fan that caught the ball and an out was awarded.

An objective umpire, who was 5 feet away, did not think Alou would have clearly caught it. So either he is to blame for making a bad noncall or Alou wouldn't have caught it anyway.
I'm pretty sure that once the ball is over the rail, it's the fan's right to grab it.

jdm2662
04-02-2008, 01:57 PM
I'm pretty sure that once the ball is over the rail, it's the fan's right to grab it.

You are correct. A fan can't reach over the rail to get a ball, but has every right to the ball once it's over it.

UofCSoxFan
04-02-2008, 02:39 PM
You are correct. A fan can't reach over the rail to get a ball, but has every right to the ball once it's over it.

I've seen outs called. It may be the fan's right in the sense that they won't get ejected for reaching for it but I've seen it cases where it is very very obvious that a catch would be made that an out is called (whcih Alou and many Cubs fans argued at the time) . I think the default is they won't call fan interferance unless they won't reach over but their is umpire descretion. Its sort of like interferance on a double play isn't usually called if a guy can reach 2nd, but as stated the rule allows for much more to be called interferance than is typically called.

I'm not saying interfence should have been called or this is an example of the case. But like I said, I've seen at least once where the player literally closed his glove around the fan's hand that cuaght the ball, and an out was awarded.

My point was basically that if the Cubs were wronged as much as they claimed, the umpire definitely had the ability to rectify....his hands weren't tied by the fact the ball was 5 inches into the stands.

Hokiesox
04-02-2008, 03:07 PM
Another point that is NEVER made, if in the umpire's opinion, Alou would have cuaght the ball, he still could have ruled it an out, even if it was in the stands. I remember the Sox lost a game on the final out on a call like this either last year or 2 years ago. There also was a play a while ago where the first baseman had his glove wrapped around the hands of a fan that caught the ball and an out was awarded.

An objective umpire, who was 5 feet away, did not think Alou would have clearly caught it. So either he is to blame for making a bad noncall or Alou wouldn't have caught it anyway.

The ump would have a REAL hard time making that call in the eighth inning of game 6 of the LCS. It's like a basketball ref swallowing the whistle at the end of a game. The Marlins would have, very justifiably, rioted.

cards press box
04-02-2008, 03:14 PM
It's hard to imagine what it was like to be Steve Bartman after Game 6 of the 2003 NLCS. Cub fans were going bananas and I'm sure his phone was ringing off the hook with unfriendly messages. The media and even some public officials unfairly vilified him and literally drove him into seclusion.

Having said that, I don't think that Bartman handled the situation correctly. His apology from a "broken-hearted Cub fan" read like an admission of guilt. I wonder if Bartman would have better off if he said something like this:

"I saw a flyball coming right at me; I didn't see the leftfielder and I was (as most people would) trying to make a play on the ball out of self-defense, as much as anything else. Anyone who blames me for the Cub loss is seriously misguided. If these `fans' want to blame anyone, they should look no farther than the team on the field -- the ones who did not make the plays and gave up 8 runs to the Marlins in the 8th inning of this game. I did nothing wrong."

That's what Bartman should have said. And what's more, if I were Bartman, I would taken the offer he allegedly received to do a Super Bowl commercial and, what's more, I would have taken up McNally's Pub on what I understand is their offer of free drinks for life. If Bartman had played down his alleged guilt and made fun of all the hysterical Cub nonsense, he would have been better off.

spawn
04-02-2008, 04:40 PM
It's hard to imagine what it was like to be Steve Bartman after Game 6 of the 2003 NLCS. Cub fans were going bananas and I'm sure his phone was ringing off the hook with unfriendly messages. The media and even some public officials unfairly vilified him and literally drove him into seclusion.

I think Blagojevich coming down on him was about as low as you could get.

Railsplitter
04-02-2008, 09:51 PM
The first time I saw "The Top Five Reasons You Can't Blame..." it featured Bartman. Even there, they used "They're cursed" as one of the reasons.

grv1974
04-02-2008, 10:28 PM
I think Blagojevich coming down on him was about as low as you could get.

Yeah, he and Jim Belushi. Belushi, in an interview about the event. was like, "Bartman's a jerk." Jim Belushi: the embarrasing ambassador of Chicago.

Frontman
04-03-2008, 12:16 AM
Doesn't help that ESPN won't let it die. This afternoon's "Sportscenter?"

"What's wrong with the Cubs and the Tigers?"

And yes, one of the talking heads brought up Bartman. Get off of the guy's case already.

madisonsoxfan
04-03-2008, 12:51 AM
You might want to do yourself a favor and read the original thread topic.

Here's the series of events that are all apparently Bartman's fault:

Mordecai flies out 1-out, 3-0 Cubs
Pierre double 1-out, 3-0 Cubs
Eight pitch Castillo at-bat leads to Bartman play, Prior then WALKS Castillo on a wild-pitch allowing Pierre to advance to third 1-0, 3-0 Cubs
Pudge gets a single, scoring Pierre 1-out, 3-1 Cubs
Cabrera hits a grounder to Alex Gonzalez, error, bases loaded 1-out, 3-1 Cubs
Lee doubles, scoring Castillo and Pudge 1-out, 3-3 Tie
Farnsworth in the game, walks Lowell to load bases 1-out, 3-3 Tie
Conine hits a sac-fly, Cabrera scores 2-outs, 4-3 Marlins
Farnsworth walks Hollandsworth 2-outs, 4-3 Marlins
Mordecai double, scores all runners 2-outs, 7-3 Marlins
Remlinger in the game, Pierre single, scoring Mordecai 8-3 Marlins

Yup, it's all Bartman's fault.

Oh yeah and there was a Game 7. Get real.





Looking at that run down of that half inning makes me so sad for Mr. Bartman. No curse, no jinx... just some bad bad bad execution through that sequence. We've all seen games that ran away, like that one did to the Cubs. Too bad "Bartman's incident" was made more then what it was... a foul ball.

RockJock07
04-03-2008, 02:12 AM
It's hard to imagine what it was like to be Steve Bartman after Game 6 of the 2003 NLCS. Cub fans were going bananas and I'm sure his phone was ringing off the hook with unfriendly messages. The media and even some public officials unfairly vilified him and literally drove him into seclusion.

Having said that, I don't think that Bartman handled the situation correctly. His apology from a "broken-hearted Cub fan" read like an admission of guilt. I wonder if Bartman would have better off if he said something like this:

"I saw a flyball coming right at me; I didn't see the leftfielder and I was (as most people would) trying to make a play on the ball out of self-defense, as much as anything else. Anyone who blames me for the Cub loss is seriously misguided. If these `fans' want to blame anyone, they should look no farther than the team on the field -- the ones who did not make the plays and gave up 8 runs to the Marlins in the 8th inning of this game. I did nothing wrong."

That's what Bartman should have said. And what's more, if I were Bartman, I would taken the offer he allegedly received to do a Super Bowl commercial and, what's more, I would have taken up McNally's Pub on what I understand is their offer of free drinks for life. If Bartman had played down his alleged guilt and made fun of all the hysterical Cub nonsense, he would have been better off.

I think that would have been a great way to handle it. It's times like these when I really have a problem with cubs fans. Many of us probably have friends and family members that are cubs fans, but the ones who still to this day blame him for what happened really bring down a fan base that already has many sterotypes, most of which are true.

I don't remember every play that happened after that except for the ground ball that hit Alex Gon in the glove and he booted it.

I feel sorry for him cause 95% of the population would have done the same thing, it's just a sad thing that people just can't let this whole thing go.

SoxandtheCityTee
04-03-2008, 09:28 AM
I think Blagojevich coming down on him was about as low as you could get.

Agreed. That was just inexcusable.

white sox bill
04-03-2008, 09:44 AM
Moises couldn't catch a cold...besides, peeing on his hands, whatever for? Urine is sterile anyway, my Opto told me one time it better to wet your contacts with urine than your saliva before putting them in