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Frater Perdurabo
03-31-2008, 06:28 PM
10-8 Tribe. Umpires gift-wrap this one for the Indians.

...
03-31-2008, 06:29 PM
I'm going to post this again...

Per MLB rule book...

7.09
(e) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate.

kevingrt
03-31-2008, 06:29 PM
Rough game on the emotions to start. This team did show promise though. 10 runs out of two pitcher in an inning and two third flat out sucks though.

BoysMom3
03-31-2008, 06:29 PM
Those calls were unstinkinbelievable. Horrendous. I still feel much better than I did in the 2nd inning. We didn't roll over and die.

oeo
03-31-2008, 06:29 PM
Dotel still blew this game. **** that guy.

Linebrink is our set-up man. Dotel = mop-up duty until he can get someone out.

kittle42
03-31-2008, 06:29 PM
I just have a feeling this is going to be the kind of game we see a lot of this season. Pitching gives up a ton of runs. Offense can make a game of it. Pitching ultimately fails.

Jerome
03-31-2008, 06:30 PM
10 runs? ouch

I wasn't watching, how did Alexi look? I see a few Ks in the box score.

FireMariotti
03-31-2008, 06:30 PM
10-8 Tribe. Umpires gift-wrap this one for the Indians.

Not that that wasn't a big reason we lost this one, but Buehrle wrapped up the present in the second and Dotel paid the postage.

kittle42
03-31-2008, 06:30 PM
Dotel still blew this game. **** that guy.

Linebrink is our set-up man. Dotel = mop-up duty until he can get someone out.

Don't talk too quickly - we haven't seen Linebrink yet.

JermaineDye05
03-31-2008, 06:30 PM
The umps better be better Wednesday, cause this **** is unacceptable.

goon
03-31-2008, 06:30 PM
I'm going to post this again...

Per MLB rule book...

7.09
(e) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate.

What's the rule for a phantom tag?

Soxworldchamps
03-31-2008, 06:30 PM
Wasserman > Dotel. Please?

...
03-31-2008, 06:31 PM
10 runs? ouch

I wasn't watching, how did Alexi look?


Bad, 0-4 3Ks...

JB98
03-31-2008, 06:31 PM
Our pitching staff needs to learn to get finish innings. We gave up too many runs after two out last year. The same problem struck again today in the eighth.

Forget about the umpiring. Let's pitch better. Finish innings off, pitchers. Please.

LoveYourSuit
03-31-2008, 06:31 PM
Umpires had nothing to do with Buehrle taking a dump out there today.

Bad SP and clutch hitting is what killed us.


Kudos to Masset for making 99.9% of this board look like morons today.

chaerulez
03-31-2008, 06:31 PM
At least the team doesn't look stupid for keeping Masset over Wasserman.

kevingrt
03-31-2008, 06:31 PM
10 runs? ouch

I wasn't watching, how did Alexi look? I see a few Ks in the box score.

Solid in the field making one good play. He was completely lost at the plate however.

Jjav829
03-31-2008, 06:31 PM
I know this thread will include a bunch of ripping on the umps, and it's probably deserved, but....

We allowed 10 runs. That's not good. You don't deserve to win if you allow 10 runs. Buehrle was awful. Dotel showed why he's known as Blowtel.

The good news is Masset saved our ass and kept us in the game. Thome and Dye looked very good. Logan had a good inning.

The umps sucked, but so did Buehrle and Dotel.

PicktoCLick72
03-31-2008, 06:31 PM
The umps better be better Wednesday, cause this **** is unacceptable.

They won't. We play Wednesday.

Frater Perdurabo
03-31-2008, 06:31 PM
Not that that wasn't a big reason we lost this one, but Buehrle wrapped up the present in the second and Dotel paid the postage.

Any day your pitchers give up 10 runs is one where you've crapped the bed. The umpires just smeared our faces in the feces.

WhiteSox5187
03-31-2008, 06:31 PM
I didn't see the game, I tivoed it, and now I have no desire to see it...when you give up seven runs in one inning though, I'm not so sure the umps had a lot to do with that. I thought we were going to pull it out. I'm a little unnerved that Buerhle appeared to have had the same breakfast that JC had last year on opening day. But I'm glad that we didn't just roll over and die when we were down 7-2. It's only one game but I'm pretty bumbed about this loss...Oh well, let's get them tommorrow.

Boondock Saint
03-31-2008, 06:32 PM
Dotel still blew this game. **** that guy.

Linebrink is our set-up man. Dotel = mop-up duty until he can get someone out.

Pretty much. The umpiring was moot after Dotel crapped himself.

Still, there's a lot to look forward to. The offense is looking a TON better than they did last year, we hit CC around some, and our bullpen is showing signs of life. I'd like to have a win here, but you can't win them all.

Domeshot17
03-31-2008, 06:32 PM
The Good: The Offense, mostly. Crede doesn't look healthy, Alexei doesn't look ready, and Uribe just doesn't look any different then the last 2 years. But we put up 8 runs and we did not quit. 2 guys who weren't expected to help much, Logan and Masset, really came through.

The bad: Umps cost us some runs. Buehrle got shelled, Dotel was throwing straight 94 mph fastballs right down the middle, and the defense had a few shakey moments.

At the end of the day we have to execute. If that is better location (Buehrle and Dotel), better defense (Cabrera), or timely hitting (Alexei-Cabrera-Thome-AJ), we have to do it better next time.

oeo
03-31-2008, 06:32 PM
Don't talk too quickly - we haven't seen Linebrink yet.

At least Linebrink was successful in Spring Training. Dotel was ****ing garbage.

WhiteSoxJunkie
03-31-2008, 06:32 PM
Umpires 3, White Sox 0

...
03-31-2008, 06:32 PM
What's the rule for a phantom tag?

To be honest, It looked like he got his jersey...

whitesoxfan
03-31-2008, 06:32 PM
It's a tough loss, but it's the first game of the season. I really liked the toughness that we showed today. That's something that we SORELY lacked last season.

The one bad inning thing really needs to go, though.

One thing I think is for certain. We'll score our fair share of runs this year.

rookie
03-31-2008, 06:32 PM
Those calls were unstinkinbelievable. Horrendous. I still feel much better than I did in the 2nd inning. We didn't roll over and die.

True. The players were defintely into the game. Offense came through in a variety of ways. Going to try to calm myself down. Not a bad game if you don't focus on the pitching.

goon
03-31-2008, 06:33 PM
To be honest, It looked like he got his jersey...

WOW. You are a Sox fan right?

goon
03-31-2008, 06:34 PM
I mean 3 very questionable calls, none of them go the White Sox way, that's kind of bull****. At least admit the Sox were getting the short end of the stick.

oeo
03-31-2008, 06:34 PM
To be honest, It looked like he got his jersey...

It did knick his jersey...but there was a view over the top and you can see his foot get in there beforehand.

btrain929
03-31-2008, 06:34 PM
I'm going to post this again...

Per MLB rule book...

7.09
(e) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate.

Ok so it's a rule that never gets called. That is the point of "breaking up the double play." Slide hard into the SS or 2B so he can't get a throw off. Cabrera did nothing wrong. Good, aggressive baseball. Either call it every time or never call it. None of this "in-between sometimes maybe" bull****.

chisoxfanatic
03-31-2008, 06:34 PM
What's the rule for a phantom tag?

As well as calling Pierzynski out in the 7th when the guy's foot was off the base. There were three horse**** calls there in the last few innings. An 11-7 lead changes the entire approach to the game going to the bottom of the 8th. I'd send this tape to the commissioner's office right away.

Fortunately, Thome was able to give me some great stats for my fantasy team.

LoveYourSuit
03-31-2008, 06:34 PM
The Good: The Offense, mostly. Crede doesn't look healthy, .


I saw him in mid-season pop up mode, what is wrong with him?

Dick Allen
03-31-2008, 06:34 PM
Since I didn't see the game, was Ozzie at least out there arguing those calls? If he did, it obviously didn't help.

doublem23
03-31-2008, 06:35 PM
What's the rule for a phantom tag?

Not to mention keeping the phantom foot on first base.

JermaineDye05
03-31-2008, 06:35 PM
Pretty much. The umpiring was moot after Dotel crapped himself.

Still, there's a lot to look forward to. The offense is looking a TON better than they did last year, we hit CC around some, and our bullpen is showing signs of life. I'd like to have a win here, but you can't win them all.

I said it before and I'll say it again. I can almost guarantee Dotel doesn't blow it if he's coming in with a lead as opposed to a tied ball game still, a whole different mindset. Also don't forget Cleveland had a **** load of momentum after getting out of a bases loaded situation with 0 outs, courtesy of the umps.

FireMariotti
03-31-2008, 06:35 PM
WOW. You are a Sox fan right?

Nothing wrong with being objective and fan.

I really don't he got that tag though.

IlliniSox4Life
03-31-2008, 06:35 PM
All I can say is, even though we lost, thank god baseball is back.

btrain929
03-31-2008, 06:36 PM
What's the rule for a phantom tag?

No ****. Of a sliding player and/or of first base?

Bull**** X 50.

LoveYourSuit
03-31-2008, 06:36 PM
Since I didn't see the game, was Ozzie at least out there arguing those calls? If he did, it obviously didn't help.


Arguements with umps rarely solve anything.

Jjav829
03-31-2008, 06:36 PM
Since I didn't see the game, was Ozzie at least out there arguing those calls? If he did, it obviously didn't help.

He argued both. Of course it's not going to help. The umpire saw it once and made a decision. It's not like he's going to suddenly change his mind because Ozzie disagrees.

ChevyPrideCrew
03-31-2008, 06:36 PM
another bad call that might go overlooked is a strike that wasnt called in the second that would have gav Buehrle an extra out. I say this because i was watching the game with celveland announcers and they even said got em before the up made a call and continued to appologize for the call.

oeo
03-31-2008, 06:37 PM
Nothing wrong with being objective and fan.

I really don't he got that tag though.

I guess I'll have to see it again. I personally thought he did just get the jersey, but regardless...when they show the overhead view, his foot was in there.

No one can disagree with the umpire being in a bad position, on both that play and the one on AJ. Just terrible umpiring today.

Jjav829
03-31-2008, 06:37 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again. I can almost guarantee Dotel doesn't blow it if he's coming in with a lead as opposed to a tied ball game still, a whole different mindset. Also don't forget Cleveland had a **** load of momentum after getting out of a bases loaded situation with 0 outs, courtesy of the umps.

You can almost guarantee it? Have you seen Octavio Dotel pitch the last few years?

Dick Allen
03-31-2008, 06:37 PM
Arguements with umps rarely solve anything.No, but it may plant a seed for later.

Blueprint1
03-31-2008, 06:38 PM
I am not going to blame the Umpires for this one. Dotel blew the the game.

#1swisher
03-31-2008, 06:38 PM
To be honest, It looked like he got his jersey...

were you watching the game in Cleveland?:scratch:

Jerome
03-31-2008, 06:39 PM
hopefully we see more of these types of outings from masset

(good ones, not ones where he comes in down 7 runs)

doublem23
03-31-2008, 06:39 PM
Despite the fact I'm pissed that the Sox got jobbed out of this win, it's nice to see Nick Masset and Boone Logan pitch extremely well and the offense looked pretty good. Scoring 8 runs in a game when the Toons start Sabathia is promising.

It's also hard to say the umps really blew this game for us when Buehrle pitched so incredibly poorly.

Oh well. It's 1 game, in the grand scheme of things, it's not even 1 half of 1 percent of the season. Still sucks, especially with the off-day tomorrow.

It's Dankerific
03-31-2008, 06:39 PM
The Good: The Offense, mostly. Crede doesn't look healthy.

What are you talking about? Solid plays at 3b. Double a foot from a homer, a slide adjustment that was beautifully executed and crapped on by the umps.

we all wish he would have gotten a hit instead of the last out of the game, but does that mean whenever we lose, the guy putting up the last out is unhealthy/****ty/whatever?

Dub25
03-31-2008, 06:39 PM
I'm going to post this again...

Per MLB rule book...

7.09
(e) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate.

Well then, this rule should be applied on just about every slide into second on a double play ball. How about Casey Blake's slide into Cabrera?

kevingrt
03-31-2008, 06:39 PM
He argued both. Of course it's not going to help. The umpire saw it once and made a decision. It's not like he's going to suddenly change his mind because Ozzie disagrees.

He came out on the plate call, the call on AJ at 1B, and the double play interference.

doublem23
03-31-2008, 06:40 PM
I am not going to blame the Umpires for this one. Dotel blew the the game.

You're right, we couldn't have used an extra 1-2 runs. :kukoo:

FireMariotti
03-31-2008, 06:40 PM
Ewwww, they are comparing Buehrle's start to Contreras' last year. The stats are eerily and sadly similar.

Hopefully this game is just an anomaly. Buehrle will be fine. The wind was blowing out at like 30mph at game time. A lot of pop ups carried out of the park that normally wouldn't, attributing to a lot of runs.

voodoochile
03-31-2008, 06:40 PM
Positives:

Ramirez took a walk
Thome hit not one but two LHP very well, second time it just didn't get through.
Masset - guess he's not total dog**** after all.
Every single Sox batter reached base at least once
Dye got off to a hot start.
Uribe had a double that briefly gave the Sox life
They came back from a huge deficit against a top of the line pitcher and again got the tying run to the plate in the ninth
Ozzie trusted his bullpen guys to pitch for more than one batter
The Indians bullpen looks pretty bad.
Baseball is back.

Negatives:
Ramirez looked very overmatched against off speed and breaking pitches.
Dotel - might be total dog**** after all. Give him a mop and see if he finds something later in the year.
Uribe K'ed three times.
Ossie trusted Dotel to pitch to a lot more than one batter.
Buehrle - um well... this one should be okay.
It was a loss.

Still, I find myself smiling. This team could have rolled over and played dead after Buehrle melted down after Cabrera misplayed that low liner.

I won't blame the umps. I don't think Crede got tagged, but I can't tell for sure. The interference play was pretty obvious. The Cleveland feed I was watching on MLB.TV clearly showed Cabrera use a fully extended arm to take out the SS's knee and prevent the throw. First glance I was pretty upset, but I think the worst you can say is that a borderline call didn't go our way and if I had to rule based on the evidence, I'd side with the toons.

What ya gonna do? Let's get 'em on Wednesday.

goon
03-31-2008, 06:40 PM
Nothing wrong with being objective and fan.

I really don't he got that tag though.

Absolutely not, but to copy/paste an extremely vague rule from the MLB handbook that NEVER gets called in that situation, then you state that you think Crede was tagged out at the plate, it's a bit much. I honestly don't know if he was tagged or if Garko's foot was off the bag, but the Sox should have got one of those calls, *****.

getonbckthr
03-31-2008, 06:41 PM
The Sox were treated like an ectasy over-dose on prom night.

Boondock Saint
03-31-2008, 06:41 PM
I am not going to blame the Umpires for this one. Dotel blew the the game.

For the majority of the game, we pitched like garbage. If Mark doesn't get shelled, we aren't in a losing situation in the first place. Either way, it's just one game in the grand scheme of things, and there's a ton more left. If we miss the postseason by 1 game, then I'll worry about the umpiring. Pissed? Yes. Forgetting about it tomorrow? Also yes.

...
03-31-2008, 06:41 PM
WOW. You are a Sox fan right?

What does that matter?

It appeared the tag caught his jersey...

kevingrt
03-31-2008, 06:41 PM
Ewwww, they are comparing Buehrle's start to Contreras' last year. The stats are eerily and sadly similar.

Hopefully this game is just an anomaly. Buehrle will be fine. The wind was blowing out at like 30mph at game time. A lot of pop ups carried out of the park that normally wouldn't, attributing to a lot of runs.

If I remember correctly Burly had a rough year in '06 and started off terrible. Or was it the second half that was awful?

IlliniSox4Life
03-31-2008, 06:41 PM
Reasons we lost the game today:

Mark Buehrle sucked
Dotel sucked
The umpires sucked
The offense could have put themselves in better positions

They all contributed.

turners56
03-31-2008, 06:41 PM
I didn't see the game, I tivoed it, and now I have no desire to see it...when you give up seven runs in one inning though, I'm not so sure the umps had a lot to do with that. I thought we were going to pull it out. I'm a little unnerved that Buerhle appeared to have had the same breakfast that JC had last year on opening day. But I'm glad that we didn't just roll over and die when we were down 7-2. It's only one game but I'm pretty bumbed about this loss...Oh well, let's get them tommorrow.

What's even worse is that we had two possible double plays, one screwed up by Cabrera, the other wasn't a already made one, but it could of been made. If Buehrle just got one of those DPs, the game could of been different.

voodoochile
03-31-2008, 06:42 PM
another bad call that might go overlooked is a strike that wasnt called in the second that would have gav Buehrle an extra out. I say this because i was watching the game with celveland announcers and they even said got em before the up made a call and continued to appologize for the call.

Right before the 3-run jack that got things going. I thought he was out too, but that's baseball.

btrain929
03-31-2008, 06:42 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again. I can almost guarantee Dotel doesn't blow it if he's coming in with a lead as opposed to a tied ball game still, a whole different mindset. Also don't forget Cleveland had a **** load of momentum after getting out of a bases loaded situation with 0 outs, courtesy of the umps.

Is he the closer? No.

He will come into games leading one, down one, tie game, etc. He needs to locate his fastball and not be afraid to throw inside.

Do your job.

FedEx227
03-31-2008, 06:42 PM
I can say with a lot of confidence, I would not mind Swisher leading off for this year.

My ideal lineup would have Ramirez/Richar at 2B, Anderson in CF, Swisher in LF leading off... Swisher isn't going to wow you with stolen bases, but him and Cabrera can definitely take extra-bases on the paths.

Uribe, looked like Uribe very quickly... he is late on EVERY high fastball and his swing looks like an over-matched kid in machine pitch.

munchman33
03-31-2008, 06:43 PM
This felt soooo much like last year. Bad starting pitching. Bad bullpen work. Bitching and moaning about the umps.

...
03-31-2008, 06:43 PM
It did knick his jersey...but there was a view over the top and you can see his foot get in there beforehand.


It was a pretty tough call. The ump saw the glove nick Joe's jersey and probably got excited. Tough break...

Bob G
03-31-2008, 06:43 PM
I didn't see the game either but I'm wondering why Crede didn't score when he was 2nd and Uribe hits a double in the 8th.

LoveYourSuit
03-31-2008, 06:43 PM
Positives:



Still, I find myself smiling. This team could have rolled over and played dead after Buehrle melted down after Cabrera misplayed that low liner.

.


We came back on a team that a bunch of experts are picking as WS contenders at their home, with their ACE, their bullpen, etc.


The Sox showed today that their line up can mash with anyone.

JermaineDye05
03-31-2008, 06:43 PM
You can almost guarantee it? Have you seen Octavio Dotel pitch the last few years?

The last few years he's been used as a closer, which is not a rule suited for him. The guy has a career ERA of 3.76 not too bad for a middle reliever/setup man.

btrain929
03-31-2008, 06:43 PM
If I remember correctly Burly had a rough year in '06 and started off terrible. Or was it the second half that was awful?

Buehrle was an All Star in '06. He was terrible 2nd half.

It's Dankerific
03-31-2008, 06:44 PM
What does that matter?

It appeared the tag caught his jersey...

Not even close to catching his jersey. cleveland feed or no.

Boondock Saint
03-31-2008, 06:44 PM
I didn't see the game either but I'm wondering why Crede didn't score when he was 2nd and Uribe hits a double in the 8th.

Apparantly, it was hit very hard, and the fielder made a good play on it.

IlliniSox4Life
03-31-2008, 06:44 PM
I didn't see the game either but I'm wondering why Crede didn't score when he was 2nd and Uribe hits a double in the 8th.
The ball was almost caught so Crede had to stay close to second, and the LF got to it quickly after it bounced off the wall. It wasn't a bad play by Crede, it was good baserunning.

Jjav829
03-31-2008, 06:44 PM
I didn't see the game either but I'm wondering why Crede didn't score when he was 2nd and Uribe hits a double in the 8th.

It was a line drive toward Michaels in left. It wasn't clear if Michaels would catch the ball or not. Crede had to wait to see what happened. When Michaels didn't make the catch, he made a great play off the wall and got it back in quick.

skobabe8
03-31-2008, 06:45 PM
No corpseball!! YES!!

FireMariotti
03-31-2008, 06:45 PM
If I remember correctly Burly had a rough year in '06 and started off terrible. Or was it the second half that was awful?

It was the second half. That was the worst stretch of his career by far.

btrain929
03-31-2008, 06:45 PM
I didn't see the game either but I'm wondering why Crede didn't score when he was 2nd and Uribe hits a double in the 8th.

No chance. He had to freeze because it was a line drive to the LF'er. He then caught it on a 1-hop and fired it in. It wasn't a for sure double where he should have been to 3rd when it landed. He was actually heading back to 2nd because it looked like Michaels was going to catch it, but he didn't.

turners56
03-31-2008, 06:46 PM
I can say with a lot of confidence, I would not mind Swisher leading off for this year.

My ideal lineup would have Ramirez/Richar at 2B, Anderson in CF, Swisher in LF leading off... Swisher isn't going to wow you with stolen bases, but him and Cabrera can definitely take extra-bases on the paths.

Uribe, looked like Uribe very quickly... he is late on EVERY high fastball and his swing looks like an over-matched kid in machine pitch.

Swisher looked great as a leadoff hitter, he gave the bottom of the lineup protection and got on base at the same time.

kevingrt
03-31-2008, 06:46 PM
I didn't see the game either but I'm wondering why Crede didn't score when he was 2nd and Uribe hits a double in the 8th.

There were no outs and Michaels just flat out makes plays versus us so Crede wasn't risking it. Michaels still made a nice play off the wall and do you really want to risk it when you have the opportunity to be on second and third?

RockJock07
03-31-2008, 06:46 PM
Lot of highs and lows today..

Highs...Masset, Logan, Swisher, AJ, Thome, Ozzie for not getting tossed

Lows...Crede for most of the game, Uribe is awful, umps, dotel

I really don't like blaming others for a loss but wow, awful calls today, however, dotel had blake 1 stike away and blew.

I'm really excited about the top of our line-up, the new guys are really infusing this whole line-up with better ab's and some speed. However, the bottom two of crede and Uribe need some work. I have a feeling that after richar is back, uribe is gone, or that's my hope.

...
03-31-2008, 06:46 PM
Ok so it's a rule that never gets called. That is the point of "breaking up the double play." Slide hard into the SS or 2B so he can't get a throw off. Cabrera did nothing wrong. Good, aggressive baseball. Either call it every time or never call it. None of this "in-between sometimes maybe" bull****.


With the base runner's arm reaching out in an attempt to grab/block the fielder, would you would be calling for exact opposite call had the White Sox been on defense??? That was a pretty flagrant attempt at hindering the throw to second. Granted, he did have his foot on the base...

pudge
03-31-2008, 06:46 PM
Ah, that was fun.

-Dotel blows
-Hawk and DJ already have a vendetta against the umps
-Overmatched rookie batting 6th
-Blow a winnable game to the #1 contender in the division

Awesome start!

FireMariotti
03-31-2008, 06:46 PM
I didn't see for sure, but I'm guessing Cox held Crede at third on that liner to left. Nothing wrong with what he did there. He would have been dead at the plate.

SoxandtheCityTee
03-31-2008, 06:48 PM
This felt soooo much like last year. Bad starting pitching. Bad bullpen work. Bitching and moaning about the umps.

Bad bullpen work? What about Masset's performance for 4 plus?

oeo
03-31-2008, 06:48 PM
Apparantly, it was hit very hard, and the fielder made a good play on it.

It was almost caught by Michaels (so Crede had to freeze), but ended up getting over his glove on a leap. He then got a perfect bounce off the wall and got it back in quickly. Nothing was done wrong on that play.

turners56
03-31-2008, 06:49 PM
I still don't know why Ramirez was batting 6th, he didn't have one legitimate ball in play today.

Dick Allen
03-31-2008, 06:50 PM
It's really a shame that the Sox couldn't take the umpires out of the equation in the 7th and 8th by getting some hits or flyballs in the clutch.

turners56
03-31-2008, 06:50 PM
It was almost caught by Michaels (so Crede had to freeze), but ended up getting over his glove on a leap. He then got a perfect bounce off the wall and got it back in quickly. Nothing was done wrong on that play.

Happened on the Jermaine Dye double too, he sure as hell knows how to play that wall.

Jollyroger2
03-31-2008, 06:50 PM
Awful calls today, but like others have said, when your ace gives up a touchdown in the second inning, the cards are already stacked against you. Then in the crucial inning with the bases loaded and nobody out, maybe if the Sox hit one out of the infield they get on top, instead of ground balls directly to infielders.

Hard to blame the offense or umps though when your pitching serves up 10 runs.

...
03-31-2008, 06:50 PM
were you watching the game in Cleveland?:scratch:

Very closely, I actually replayed said play a few times. Crede appeared to touch home before the tag but, nonetheless, there was a tag...

oeo
03-31-2008, 06:50 PM
We can't have both Ramirez and Uribe in this lineup. One or the other...I'll take Uribe because he plays better D.

Hopefully we see a different lineup tomorrow.

LoveYourSuit
03-31-2008, 06:51 PM
Meanwhile David Riske look good right now shutting down that north side team in extras for the save.

Why did Riske suck when he was here?

btrain929
03-31-2008, 06:52 PM
He came out on the plate call, the call on AJ at 1B, and the double play interference.

I wish he would have gotten in his ear a little more. It seemed like he just asked the ump about it, and walked back to the dugout. More like the '07 Ozzie then the '05 one...

turners56
03-31-2008, 06:52 PM
It's really a shame that the Sox couldn't take the umpires out of the equation in the 7th and 8th by getting some hits or flyballs in the clutch.

If they were fly balls, phantom tags would of been called anyhow, you know it.

cheezheadsoxfan
03-31-2008, 06:52 PM
Big dissapointment but still feels better than last year when you knew we were done as soon as we were down by 2 runs. And hopefully that's the real Masset.

Oh well, still great to have baseball and the game thread back.

btrain929
03-31-2008, 06:52 PM
We can't have both Ramirez and Uribe in this lineup. One or the other...I'll take Uribe because he plays better D.

Hopefully we see a different lineup tomorrow.

You will because you'll be watching different teams play. Sox don't play 'til Wednesday.

Boondock Saint
03-31-2008, 06:53 PM
I know this has already been said, but it bears repeating...this is a game we lose 10-1 last season. We fought back, and almost took the lead. Plenty to be optimistic about.

LongLiveFisk
03-31-2008, 06:53 PM
MB wasn't sharp and the first game of the season the umps are ALREADY sucking? Oh my....:scratch:

Thank God there's 161 left to go, huh? :cool:

jabrch
03-31-2008, 06:53 PM
While all that other stuff sucks, our ace, #1 guy, who we just gave a big (I know - not big enough) contract couldn't get out of the 2nd inning without digging us a hole. Sure - we hit our way out of trouble, but Mark dug us into it.

He does this every now and then - just lays an egg. Let's write it off and move on to tomorrow.

Bob G
03-31-2008, 06:53 PM
There were no outs and Michaels just flat out makes plays versus us so Crede wasn't risking it. Michaels still made a nice play off the wall and do you really want to risk it when you have the opportunity to be on second and third?

Thanks for clearing this up - I knew there had to be a good reason.

I hope BA gets a chance to play CF on Wed. - he deserves a shot.

turners56
03-31-2008, 06:53 PM
Very closely, I actually replayed said play a few times. Crede appeared to touch home before the tag but, nonetheless, there was a tag...

The overhead view says otherwise. I was watching on MLB.TV, the Cleveland announcers even said he missed him.

cheezheadsoxfan
03-31-2008, 06:54 PM
Meanwhile David Riske look good right now shutting down that north side team in extras for the save.

Why did Riske suck when he was here?

It's early, he had a few good games with us too.

JB98
03-31-2008, 06:54 PM
Bad bullpen work? What about Masset's performance for 4 plus?

Logan did what he was asked to do as well.

Thinking back to Dotel's time in Oakland and KC, it seems he has often struggled in tie games.

...
03-31-2008, 06:55 PM
Absolutely not, but to copy/paste an extremely vague rule from the MLB handbook that NEVER gets called in that situation, then you state that you think Crede was tagged out at the plate, it's a bit much. I honestly don't know if he was tagged or if Garko's foot was off the bag, but the Sox should have got one of those calls, *****.

You are correct. I didn't memorize and then type out the exact text from the official online MLB rule book. That's some observation.

Maybe they should have gotten one of those calls, but they didn't. Get over it.

doublem23
03-31-2008, 06:55 PM
We can't have both Ramirez and Uribe in this lineup. One or the other...I'll take Uribe because he plays better D.

Hopefully we see a different lineup tomorrow.

Well, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I really think he needs some grooming in the minors. Obviously the Cuban League is not proper preparation for the Majors.

turners56
03-31-2008, 06:55 PM
While all that other stuff sucks, our ace, #1 guy, who we just gave a big (I know - not big enough) contract couldn't get out of the 2nd inning without digging us a hole. Sure - we hit our way out of trouble, but Mark dug us into it.

He does this every now and then - just lays an egg. Let's write it off and move on to tomorrow.

I think Buehrle was pissed that his defense failed to make plays and he was getting squeezed on some pitches. There was a sequence to Michaels where he clearly threw two off speed strikes, but ended up walking Michaels in 5 pitches, that ended up as a run. No doubt Buehrle was leaving pitches up, but he looked very sharp in the first. I remember this kind of stuff happening to him in 04 and 06 where he got no breaks from anybody.

oeo
03-31-2008, 06:59 PM
Well, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I really think he needs some grooming in the minors. Obviously the Cuban League is not proper preparation for the Majors.

I just don't like the idea of the bottom of the order killing us over and over again like the last two years. I'd rather see Quentin down there, or even Anderson. Ramirez does need grooming.

Another thing, that I mentioned earlier in the thread: I really hope Ozzie moves Linebrink to the 8th inning role...like Wednesday, not in a month. Dotel was ****ty all Spring Training, and I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that it was just the Arizona air...but then he pulls this stunt. They need a quick start...a bad set-up man isn't going to help.

JB98
03-31-2008, 06:59 PM
Well, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I really think he needs some grooming in the minors. Obviously the Cuban League is not proper preparation for the Majors.

It's really hard to judge. Over the spring, Ramirez had some days where he looked just awesome. He also had some days where he looked like he did today.

santo=dorf
03-31-2008, 07:01 PM
Meanwhile David Riske look good right now shutting down that north side team in extras for the save.

Why did Riske suck when he was here?
He didn't. He was perfect for the 6th/7th inning man role, but the Sox didn't bother to offer the type A free agent making $1.8 million dollars because they felt comfortable with the young power arms. Oops. That horse has been dead for some time.

How did Ramirez, Uribe and Cabrera looks at each of their respective positions? Did Cerrano make contact with any breaking pitches?

turners56
03-31-2008, 07:01 PM
I just don't like the idea of the bottom of the order killing us over and over again like the last two years. I'd rather see Quentin down there, or even Anderson. Ramirez does need grooming.

What's worse is that he batted 6th, between AJ and Dye who both had great games. That's like an automatic out in the middle of the order.

goon
03-31-2008, 07:01 PM
You are correct. I didn't memorize and then type out the exact text from the official online MLB rule book. That's some observation.

Maybe they should have gotten one of those calls, but they didn't. Get over it.


Uh, I did.

It's Dankerific
03-31-2008, 07:02 PM
He didn't. He was perfect for the 6th/7th inning man role, but the Sox didn't bother to offer the type A free agent making $1.8 million dollars because they felt comfortable with the young power arms. Oops. That's horse has been dead for some time.

How did Ramirez, Uribe and Cabrera looks at each of their respective positions? Did Cerrano make contact with any breaking pitches?

He didnt make contact with ANY pitches (unless you count 5 inch fouls.)
Wait, maybe he hit one foul ball? one maybe..

Taliesinrk
03-31-2008, 07:03 PM
What's the rule for a phantom tag?

I think you mean phantom force out. Oh.. wait.. I guess both happened. Take your pick.

Jjav829
03-31-2008, 07:03 PM
How did Ramirez, Uribe and Cabrera looks at each of their respective positions? Did Cerrano make contact with any breaking pitches?

Uribe looked like Uribe. Swinging at everything, making little contact, always pulling off the ball. He blows.

Ramirez looked a little better today. Actually showed some decent plate discipline. Still very susceptible to breaking balls.

Woofer
03-31-2008, 07:04 PM
I didn't get to watch or hear all of the game. Buerhle and Dotel deserve alot of the blame, but we need to score some runs with the bases loaded, and no outs. That is pathetic!

...
03-31-2008, 07:04 PM
The overhead view says otherwise. I was watching on MLB.TV, the Cleveland announcers even said he missed him.
50% of the Cleveland announcers. Why is their opinion any more objective than anyone else's? They were watching the same footage everyone else was...

RockJock07
03-31-2008, 07:04 PM
Out of all of this, i think it helps that they weren't completely shut down by CC. This will go along way to help their confidence as the season goes along. They battled and they at least know that they can get to him even when he isn't having his best day. It seemed like even when CC wasn't on his game in the past, he would still own the sox.

We also got to that bullpen which is nice.

santo=dorf
03-31-2008, 07:05 PM
Defense too jjav. Supposedly Cabrera misplayed a ball in the huge second inning and Ramirez made a spectacle out of a routine flyball.

Jerko
03-31-2008, 07:05 PM
I'm more pissed about giving up 6 rbi to the 8 and 9 hitters than anything. Gotta get the Casey Blakes of the world out.

turners56
03-31-2008, 07:06 PM
50% of the Cleveland announcers. Why is their opinion any more objective than anyone else's? They were watching the same footage everyone else was...

Because they're paid to have a bias. And if even they said the call was bad, it really is saying something.

soxinem1
03-31-2008, 07:06 PM
10 runs? ouch

I wasn't watching, how did Alexi look? I see a few Ks in the box score.

He looked like an inexperienced rookie in CF, and a total waste of time at the plate.:whiner:

Corlose 15
03-31-2008, 07:06 PM
This game was lost in the 7th and 8th innings by the offense not being able to get that key hit to take the lead. 1st and 3rd one out in the 7th and they don't score. BASES LOADED, nobody out in the 8th and they don't score, and you can argue that Crede did score I didn't watch the game.

If the Sox have the lead in the 8th inning you see Linebrink instead of Dotel and maybe it's a different game.


There were some definite positives and some definite negatives today. Still its just one game and there's a long way to go.

...
03-31-2008, 07:07 PM
Because they're paid to have a bias. And if even they said the call was bad, it really is saying something.

Great logic...
It was ONE of the announcers by the way.

munchman33
03-31-2008, 07:08 PM
Bad bullpen work? What about Masset's performance for 4 plus?

I'd rather the guys who are supposed to get the important outs do so than the mopup guy have a good outing while we're down. It's nice to see and all, but we're counting very heavily on Dotel not to pitch like he did today.

RockJock07
03-31-2008, 07:10 PM
It's really hard to judge. Over the spring, Ramirez had some days where he looked just awesome. He also had some days where he looked like he did today.

he also is facing ML pitchers, he'll need maybe a third of the season to get into a groove.

thomas35forever
03-31-2008, 07:10 PM
Almost a comeback at the end. Can someone tell me exactly how the umps ****ed us over? I missed most of the game.

Jjav829
03-31-2008, 07:10 PM
Defense too jjav. Supposedly Cabrera misplayed a ball in the huge second inning and Ramirez made a spectacle out of a routine flyball.

Cabrera had one bad play, but we all know what he's going to do. He's a good defensively player. Had a great diving grab to his right but the throw was in the dirt and Konerko couldn't pick it.

Uribe had a nice play on a ball hit back up the middle. He stepped on 2nd but couldn't turn two.

Ramirez broke back on a fly ball, but came in and made a diving catch. He also had a collision with Dye where there was some miscommunication. It was Alexei's ball, but either he didn't call for it or Dye didn't hear him.

oeo
03-31-2008, 07:13 PM
There were some definite positives and some definite negatives today. Still its just one game and there's a long way to go.

Exactly. I'm still not sure what to expect this year. They appear to be playing with some life for the first time in a couple of years. I really hope this game helps the bonding of the team, and they come out firing on Wednesday.

veeter
03-31-2008, 07:14 PM
I just have a feeling this is going to be the kind of game we see a lot of this season. Pitching gives up a ton of runs. Offense can make a game of it. Pitching ultimately fails.This will be the worst Buehrle throws all year, mark it down.

balke
03-31-2008, 07:14 PM
Cabrera had one bad play, but we all know what he's going to do. He's a good defensively player. Had a great diving grab to his right but the throw was in the dirt and Konerko couldn't pick it.

Uribe had a nice play on a ball hit back up the middle. He stepped on 2nd but couldn't turn two.

Ramirez broke back on a fly ball, but came in and made a diving catch. He also had a collision with Dye where there was some miscommunication. It was Alexei's ball, but either he didn't call for it or Dye didn't hear him.

Absolutely, Cabrera needs a little time to adjust to the team, his new infield counterparts, and he'll be wowing us soon with his D.

Chicken Dinner
03-31-2008, 07:14 PM
Today's loss was clearly the result of our first pitcher, and our last pitcher. The offense was the glue that at least made this game watchable.

oeo
03-31-2008, 07:15 PM
This will be the worst Buehrle throws all year, mark it down.

Considering that was probably the worst of his career, I don't think you're going out on a limb.

BadBobbyJenks
03-31-2008, 07:16 PM
I'm going to post this again...

Per MLB rule book...

7.09
(e) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate.


Pure Nonsense the rule has been called if you can reach the base its not interference

Jaysox
03-31-2008, 07:16 PM
I thought we were done in the 2nd inning when Mark gave up 7 and Masset was warming up. Then Masset came in and pitched like a STUD! Kudos to you sir! Those umps ****** us over.

manders_01
03-31-2008, 07:17 PM
He argued both. Of course it's not going to help. The umpire saw it once and made a decision. It's not like he's going to suddenly change his mind because Ozzie disagrees.

I thought if a manger argued a call it was the responsibility of the umpiring crew to confer and come to a decision.*

*Disclaimer: I didn't see the game so I have no idea what happened. :smile:

...
03-31-2008, 07:20 PM
Pure Nonsense the rule has been called if you can reach the base its not interference

What Cabrera should have done then is reached the base standing up and then leveled Paralta with a good right hook. There's no way he's making that throw after that...

Prove To You
03-31-2008, 07:24 PM
The whole game was bogus. This should be a white sox winner, not a gift wrapped win from the umps to the Indians.

So pissed off right now.

cards press box
03-31-2008, 07:25 PM
Those calls were unstinkinbelievable. Horrendous. I still feel much better than I did in the 2nd inning. We didn't roll over and die.

I could not agree more. The Sox showed a lot of fight against Sabathia and that's important.

This felt soooo much like last year. Bad starting pitching. Bad bullpen work. Bitching and moaning about the umps.

I could not agree less. The bullpen pitched a shutout from the 2nd until two outs in the 8th. How often did that happen last year? As for the starting pitching, come on -- how often has Buerhle ever been hit that hard?

There were a lot of bad calls today. In addition to the 8th inning, how about the final out of the 7th? Stone and Farmer insisted that Pierzynski was safe but called out. Moreover, a lot of games last year seemed lifeless. That just wasn't the case today.

If this game reminded me of anything, it was the afternoon game against the A's in Oakland early in the 2005 season when the umps made another slew of crazy calls, Crede got ejected, Dye ended up playing SS and Widger ended up playing 3B.

BadBobbyJenks
03-31-2008, 07:25 PM
What Cabrera should have done then is reached the base standing up and then leveled Paralta with a good right hook. There's no way he's making that throw after that...



:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Jjav829
03-31-2008, 07:26 PM
I thought if a manger argued a call it was the responsibility of the umpiring crew to confer and come to a decision.*

*Disclaimer: I didn't see the game so I have no idea what happened. :smile:

The manager can certainly ask for them to confer, but I don't believe the umpires necessarily have to confer.

On the Cabrera interference play, it wouldn't have made a difference. The 2nd base ump saw what what we all saw and made a judgment call. And on the other two players, I doubt either of the other umps were in a better position to see the play. Maybe the 3rd base ump got a better view on the Crede tag at home, but it's unlikely that he saw enough that they would overturn the call.

BeviBall!
03-31-2008, 07:28 PM
I have a hard time believing the umps scored all ten runs. Ten GD runs on Opening Day. Stellar.

IceczMan
03-31-2008, 07:28 PM
I admit to not having looked through all the previous posts, so im not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but not to make it a habit of second guessing Ozzie, it looks like he may have dropped the ball on the game today.

There were basically 3 decisions that he had to make concerning the lineup.

He chose to bat Swisher leadoff and that worked out alright. 2 for 4, a couple good at bats and a walk.

However, Ozzie decided to go with Uribe over Pablo as he had stated throughout spring training and also decided to go with Ramirez in Center instead of Anderson or Swisher. The result: a combined 1 for 8 with 6 K's, 6 runners left on base, half of them in scoring position with less than 2 outs.

While Mark got touched up in the 2nd and the Umps made some questionable calls, I wonder if the game would have a different result if the Sox had gone with a different lineup. Begin the criticism...

munchman33
03-31-2008, 07:28 PM
I could not agree less. The bullpen pitched a shutout from the 2nd until two outs in the 8th. How often did that happen last year?



They pitched poorly when it mattered most. How is that any different? :dunno:

Mr. White Sox
03-31-2008, 07:31 PM
Not that this really matters, but if you look at the replay of the interference call you can clearly see the 2nd base ump, as Ozzie is arguing with him, mouth "He grabbed him!" multiple times. So, maybe if the ump saw Cabrera grab the 2B's knee (which he did...sort of), that altered his perception of the play enough to call it interference.

I thought it was a borderline call myself, but what are you gonna do?

cards press box
03-31-2008, 07:31 PM
They pitched poorly when it mattered most. How is that any different? :dunno:

No, what we saw out there today was not Ryan Bukvich, Mike Myers, Andrew Sisco, et al. Dotel made as a terrible 1-2 pitch to Blake, that's true. But that doesn't mean this bullpen = 2007 Sox bullpen. I need to see more games before making that judgment.

kkappelk
03-31-2008, 07:33 PM
I'm going to post this again...

Per MLB rule book...

7.09
(e) If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder.... Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah

That has nothing to do with the bad calls at first and home plate, along with the terrible work behind the plate. Quote me the MLB rules for those horse-**** calls. Absolutely awful game by the entire umpire crew.

Parrothead
03-31-2008, 07:44 PM
I am not about to go back and read the whole thread but by the title I could assume that the majority of people here are complaining about a few calls. Come on people what is wrong with you? You should know by now, unless it is your first time watching a ballgame, that teams are going to have bad calls against them. They have to over come it, which they did not. I mean come on, the Sox had bags loaded in the 8th and could not score. Get over it. There is going to more bad calls this season, some going the Sox way and some not. I am sure you people will not be complaining when they go the Sox way.

Be concerned about Buerhle and Dotel. They were just plain bad today. Also, I would be worried about Credes' bat or lack thereof and the lack of execution. Buckle up people and strap it on, there are going to be more bad games then good. I blame the loss on the Sox and thier lack of ability to excute when it counts.

Now, you all can tell me that I am a "Dark Cloud". Proceed all.

SoxandtheCityTee
03-31-2008, 07:44 PM
They pitched poorly when it mattered most. How is that any different? :dunno:

It matters a lot when the Sox are down 7-2 in the second, the starter's out of the game, and long relief shuts the other team down, allowing the Sox to climb back in to the game.

kevingrt
03-31-2008, 07:45 PM
I'm still fired up about this game. That cannot be good.

Tragg
03-31-2008, 07:46 PM
Anyone who's seen Dotel pitch over a period of time knows that he's an an absolute arsonist. He's going to have this kind of game fairly regularly. He'll also have a lot of good outings...he'll also have the outings where he strikes 2 out and gives up the homer. He's like Howry.

Looks like a super outing by Masset. Swisher did what he's paid to do. And Ramirez is batting - sixth? Does he have power?

WhiteSox5187
03-31-2008, 07:46 PM
Well, I think the umps certainly contributed to the loss, but really when ya give up ten runs, you're not helping your cause. I was amazed by the number on the post game show saying Ozzie should have gotten tossed. I don't think it would have hurt, but I certainly don't think it would have helped either. Also the fact that we had given up seven runs early probably contributed to it, had this been a 1-0 game, then I think Ozzie would have put up quite a fit. But getting tossed in the first game of the year I don't think really helps the cause. If this were July and we were neck and neck with Cleveland, I think Ozzie would have killed somebody.

I'm glad to see this offense came back and put up a fight, but I'm not ready to go out and say "Oh, we can mash anybody" quite yet. There were a lot of good things today but that doesn't mean they'll stay good and there were a lot of bad things today but I don't think they'll stay bad either. I don't think (at least I sure as hell hope!) that Buerhle is going to have another outting like this again this year. I'm also really hoping that this game puts a nice big chip on our guys shoulders and we go out there on Wenseday firing on all cylanders.

Lip Man 1
03-31-2008, 07:47 PM
A few thoughts.

I re-watched the controversial plays just to make sure, slowed them down ect.

* I could see giving the umps the benefit of the doubt on two of the calls and that's being generous, but they absolutely blew the call on Crede. I hope the Sox send the tapes to the MLB offices for review. That was flat out nasty. Part of the reasoning for MLB to try to break the umpires union a few years ago was to increase consistency and make umpires accountable...fine, let's see them start to do it.

* HOWEVER let's keep in mind something. With the bases loaded and no outs in the 8th inning NEITHER Cabrera nor Thome could get the ball out of the infield. Rifle a clean hit or drive a deep fly and the umpires aren't even involved in the play are they? We saw a lot of this awful hitting in the clutch last year didn't we?

* I wonder if Ozzie now regrets not pinch running for some of the "speed demons" in that 8th inning. Maybe it makes a difference. I'm not saying it would, just offering a "what if" situation.

* Finally this team will only go as far as the pitching carries it. And the pitching was awful today. Dotel gets two out, is ahead on the count and decides not to waste a pitch. Obviously not the right move was it?

* Also this is a poor reflection on umpiring as a whole but it's human nature and I'm sure it happens. The Sox lost 90 games last season until they "prove" themselves (for lack of a better word) I'm sure umpires (or some umpires) are going to say to themselves, 'who cares, they're a bad team anyway...' and simply not give them the calls. It's wrong, and lousy but I'm willing to bet it goes on.

Other then that I guess you can say it was better then last year's opening day embarrassment...but not by much.

Remember a fast start is absolutely crucial.

Lip

JB98
03-31-2008, 07:47 PM
I am not about to go back and read the whole thread but by the title I could assume that the majority of people here are complaining about a few calls. Come on people what is wrong with you? You should know by now, unless it is your first time watching a ballgame, that teams are going to have bad calls against them. They have to over come it, which they did not. I mean come on, the Sox had bags loaded in the 8th and could not score. Get over it. There is going to more bad calls this season, some going the Sox way and some not. I am sure you people will not be complaining when they go the Sox way.

Be concerned about Buerhle and Dotel. They were just plain bad today. Also, I would be worried about Credes' bat or lack thereof and the lack of execution. Buckle up people and strap it on, there are going to be more bad games then good. I blame the loss on the Sox and thier lack of ability to excute when it counts.

Now, you all can tell me that I am a "Dark Cloud". Proceed all.

If you're concerned about Buehrle, you are a dark cloud. Mark was terrible today, but I think we all know he'll bounce back.

WhiteSox5187
03-31-2008, 07:47 PM
It matters a lot when the Sox are down 7-2 in the second, the starter's out of the game, and long relief shuts the other team down, allowing the Sox to climb back in to the game.
You're absolutely right!!! The real purpose of long relief is not just to eat up innings (though that IS a part of it) but it's to stop the bleeding and allow the offense to get back into it. I gotta give props to Masset today. I hope he looks this good all year and I hope we never have to use him like this again this year!

Taliesinrk
03-31-2008, 07:47 PM
Well, I think the umps certainly contributed to the loss, but really when ya give up ten runs, you're not helping your cause. I was amazed by the number on the post game show saying Ozzie should have gotten tossed. I don't think it would have hurt, but I certainly don't think it would have helped either. Also the fact that we had given up seven runs early probably contributed to it, had this been a 1-0 game, then I think Ozzie would have put up quite a fit. But getting tossed in the first game of the year I don't think really helps the cause. If this were July and we were neck and neck with Cleveland, I think Ozzie would have killed somebody.

I'm glad to see this offense came back and put up a fight, but I'm not ready to go out and say "Oh, we can mash anybody" quite yet. There were a lot of good things today but that doesn't mean they'll stay good and there were a lot of bad things today but I don't think they'll stay bad either. I don't think (at least I sure as hell hope!) that Buerhle is going to have another outting like this again this year. I'm also really hoping that this game puts a nice big chip on our guys shoulders and we go out there on Wenseday firing on all cylanders.

That's what I'm going for.

...
03-31-2008, 07:50 PM
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Pretty convincing rebuttal!

Under your interpretation of the rule, that play would be considered legal and that is why your interpretation of the rule is incorrect.

BadBobbyJenks
03-31-2008, 07:50 PM
A few thoughts.



* HOWEVER let's keep in mind something. With the bases loaded and no outs in the 8th inning NEITHER Cabrera nor Thome could get the ball out of the infield. Rifle a clean hit or drive a deep fly and the umpires aren't even involved in the play are they? We saw a lot of this awful hitting in the clutch last year didn't we?


Lip
This is true, but who cares? Crede and Cabrera made the plays to get around this fact and we got hosed.

Lip Man 1
03-31-2008, 07:50 PM
I give props to Masset as well. He did his job. Can he do it over the long haul? That's the question. His history says 'no.'

We'll see.

Lip

BadBobbyJenks
03-31-2008, 07:51 PM
Pretty convincing rebuttal!

Under your interpretation of the rule, that play would be considered legal and that is why your interpretation of the rule is incorrect.


Yes talking about a player sliding into a player and still reaching the bag and you talking about giving a guy a right hook really needed a rebuttal. Give me a break.

Lip Man 1
03-31-2008, 07:54 PM
Bobby:

What costs Cabrera wasn't that he slid hard into the base nor was a little away from it (it was a reasonable distance in my opinion) but the fact that he stuck his arm out.

I'm sure it was unintentional, he knows better then that but it happened and the umpire saw it and he called it.

That's like extending a forearm into another player in basketball right in front of the referee...even if there's no force behind it, you're going to get called for it.

That still doesn't take away from my point though. Drive a single or hit a sac fly and the umpires aren't even involved...if Cabrera doesn't stick his hand out they probably still turn the DP on Thome and the inning's over.

As stated though they absolutely blew the call on Crede.

Lip

WhiteSox5187
03-31-2008, 07:54 PM
I give props to Masset as well. He did his job. Can he do it over the long haul? That's the question. His history says 'no.'

We'll see.

Lip
I agree 100%, one good performance doesn't make him our bullpen savior. Nor does the one bad performance by Dotel mean he's doomed to pitch like this all year. But I've got my fingers and toes crossed that Masset does wind up pitching like this all year and that Dotel starts getting guys out.

oeo
03-31-2008, 07:55 PM
I give props to Masset as well. He did his job. Can he do it over the long haul? That's the question. His history says 'no.'

What about your man Dotel?

Patrick134
03-31-2008, 07:57 PM
Bobby:

What costs Cabrera wasn't that he slid hard into the base nor was a little away from it (it was a reasonable distance in my opinion) but the fact that he stuck his arm out.

I'm sure it was unintentional, he knows better then that but it happened and the umpire saw it and he called it.

That's like extending a forearm into another player in basketball right in front of the referee...even if there's no force behind it, you're going to get called for it.

That still doesn't take away from my point though. Drive a single or hit a sac fly and the umpires aren't even involved...if Cabrera doesn't stick his hand out they probably still turn the DP on Thome and the inning's over.

As stated though they absolutely blew the call on Crede.

Lip

One important point. Peralta wasn't complaining at all, and wasn't even going to plead that it be called, he knew it was clean.

Parrothead
03-31-2008, 07:57 PM
If you're concerned about Buehrle, you are a dark cloud. Mark was terrible today, but I think we all know he'll bounce back.

More of a continuation from last year for him.

Tragg
03-31-2008, 07:58 PM
What about your man Dotel?
Get used to it.

Lip Man 1
03-31-2008, 07:58 PM
See the post right above your question OEO.

We've disagreed with this before and we'll continue to do so. I'd rather lose with guys who at least know their way around on a pitcher's mound, then 15 years of 'can't miss kids' who just don't seem to get the job done when they step on the mound in a Sox uniform.

We saw what happened in 06 and especially 07. It was time to try a different approach. Going with the kids blew up in Kenny's face and only a fool or an idiot keeps doing the same thing when the results are bad. (and Kenny is no idiot!)

Maybe I'll change my mind in a few years after Kenny's 'philosophical change' to the minor league system takes effect and actually starts to produce some big league pitchers, not double A ones.

Lip

...
03-31-2008, 07:59 PM
One important point. Peralta wasn't complaining at all, and wasn't even going to plead that it be called, he knew it was clean.

Why would he complain when the umpire immediately rules in his favor???

BRDSR
03-31-2008, 07:59 PM
Oh well. It's 1 game, in the grand scheme of things, it's not even 1 half of 1 percent of the season. Still sucks, especially with the off-day tomorrow.

Actually, it's about 62% of one percent of the season. But that's neither here nor there. I see your point.

After about an hour and a half of cool-down mode, I'm actually surprised at myself: I'm about as positive as I can be after an opening day loss.

1) Buerhle's outing was an aberation, unless he was injured, which I don't think he was. I'm fairly certain his ERA will come down significantly from 37.80.

2) The Swisher/Cabrera 1-2 punch at the top of the order was effective today, althoug it's easy to be effective when you get two homers from the three-hole.

3) Dye looked good.

4) The bullpen was, in the grand scheme of things, good. It gave up three runs in 6.1 innings. That's a quality start. Masset was obviously pretty amazing, and Logan's good inning didn't look like a fluke to me; his stuff looked good. A bullpen can withstand having one bad pitcher.

5) There was some "life" to this team. I particularly liked Cabrera's demeanor, although he did not quite seem to have his head in the game at times.

6) At the very least, three questionable calls could have resulted in runs for the White Sox.

The negatives have already been well-documented. Wish we'd gotten the win to hold me over until Wednesday, but all things considered, this day could left me with a worse taste in my mouth.

Patrick134
03-31-2008, 08:00 PM
Why would he complain when the umpire immediately rules in his favor???


You can see his non-complaining before the call gets made.

Chicken Dinner
03-31-2008, 08:03 PM
I guess going "wire to wire" is out of the equation. :o:

JB98
03-31-2008, 08:03 PM
More of a continuation from last year for him.

Buehrle had a 3.63 ERA last year. That's outstanding in the American League.

I really don't know what the hell you are talking about. Aside from the second half of 2006, Buehrle has always pitched well for us.

WhiteSox5187
03-31-2008, 08:04 PM
I guess going "wire to wire" is out of the equation. :o:
Depends, wire to wire in what?? We could go wire to wire in say, last place. God I hope not.

Chicken Dinner
03-31-2008, 08:07 PM
Depends, wire to wire in what?? We could go wire to wire in say, last place. God I hope not.

Gonna have to take you behind the woodshed.

Patrick134
03-31-2008, 08:07 PM
Buehrle had a 3.63 ERA last year. That's outstanding in the American League.

I really don't know what the hell you are talking about. Aside from the second half of 2006, Buehrle has always pitched well for us.

He had an atrocious start in 2003, bottoming out at 2-12 before rebounding to finish the year at 14-14.

Jjav829
03-31-2008, 08:09 PM
He had an atrocious start in 2003, bottoming out at 2-12 before rebounding to finish the year at 14-14.

Oh, that changes everything. Two bad halves in a 7 year career? He's junk.

JB98
03-31-2008, 08:10 PM
He had an atrocious start in 2003, bottoming out at 2-12 before rebounding to finish the year at 14-14.

True, record-wise his start in 2003 was very, very bad. But he had some bad luck in that stretch too. The only time in his career where I didn't feel like he could get the job done for us was late 2006.

He had a good spring this year. I'm disappointed in Mark's outing today, but there's no reason for anyone to **** their drawers over it.

Vernam
03-31-2008, 08:14 PM
On the bright side, we can all watch the full-game replay starting right about now on CSN. :duck:

A disappointing loss on several levels -- MB sucked, Dotel sucked, and the men in blue blew -- but that was a way scrappier effort than we saw most of last year. Ramirez did have one good at bat, which is one more than many rookies have in their first MLB game. Masset did more than just eat innings, which would have been enough. He gave us a chance to come back, and we took advantage. It's just a shame we didn't take full advantage.

Maybe moral victories are for chumps, but I saw a certain pride that seemed absent last year. Coming back against Captain Cheeseburger has to bode well . . .

Vernam

russ99
03-31-2008, 08:16 PM
Anyone who's seen Dotel pitch over a period of time knows that he's an an absolute arsonist. He's going to have this kind of game fairly regularly. He'll also have a lot of good outings...he'll also have the outings where he strikes 2 out and gives up the homer. He's like Howry.

Looks like a super outing by Masset. Swisher did what he's paid to do. And Ramirez is batting - sixth? Does he have power?

I wasn't horribly upset by Dotel's pitching. He was hitting his spots and struck out a guy with men on base and you can even say the walk to Gutierrez was semi-intentional. He was one pitch away from getting out of that jam, but the one pitch was a fat one right over the plate.

Unfortunately, one correct call by an ump, and we're up a run, get Linebrink in the 8th and likely a quick inning and then onto Bobby in the 9th.

Ramirez went 0-3 and looked overmatched at times. He did have a few decent at-bats and drawing a walk vs. Sabathia was nice, but I hope Ozzie bats him 9th on Wednesday. Crede in that spot today may have given us an extra run or two.

sullythered
03-31-2008, 08:17 PM
More of a continuation from last year for him.
:?:

3.63 ERA
1.26 WHIP for Burls in '07.

What are you talking about?

oeo
03-31-2008, 08:17 PM
See the post right above your question OEO.

We've disagreed with this before and we'll continue to do so. I'd rather lose with guys who at least know their way around on a pitcher's mound, then 15 years of 'can't miss kids' who just don't seem to get the job done when they step on the mound in a Sox uniform.

We saw what happened in 06 and especially 07. It was time to try a different approach. Going with the kids blew up in Kenny's face and only a fool or an idiot keeps doing the same thing when the results are bad. (and Kenny is no idiot!)

Maybe I'll change my mind in a few years after Kenny's 'philosophical change' to the minor league system takes effect and actually starts to produce some big league pitchers, not double A ones.

Lip

I'm just saying...if you're going to dish it out on the young guys like Logan, you should be prepared to do the same for the veterans. BTW, Logan looked awfully good today, didn't he?

Patrick134
03-31-2008, 08:18 PM
True, record-wise his start in 2003 was very, very bad. But he had some bad luck in that stretch too. The only time in his career where I didn't feel like he could get the job done for us was late 2006.

He had a good spring this year. I'm disappointed in Mark's outing today, but there's no reason for anyone to **** their drawers over it.


I wasn't dissing Mark, just pointing out that he did have another rough patch along the way, he's been awesome overall.

oeo
03-31-2008, 08:18 PM
:?:

3.63 ERA
1.26 WHIP for Burls in '07.

What are you talking about?

He must have slept through 2007. :dunno:

Lip Man 1
03-31-2008, 08:20 PM
OEO:

By your logic then I guess we should cut Buehrle immediately eh?

Fact: Dotel has at least some track record of success. THAT'S A FACT.

Does Masset? Does Logan?? (he actually pitched one inning today and didn't soil himself...STOP THE PRESSES! LOL)

Thank you.

As a previous poster said, it's one game...a little early to be passing 'absolute' judgments don't you think?

Lip

oeo
03-31-2008, 08:26 PM
OEO:

By your logic then I guess we should cut Buehrle immediately eh?

Fact: Dotel has at least some track record of success. THAT'S A FACT.

Dotel does not have a good track record after surgery...GMAB. Please do not compare Dotel to Buehrle again.

Does Masset? Does Logan?? (he actually pitched one inning today and didn't soil himself...STOP THE PRESSES! LOL)

Thank you.

As a previous poster said, it's one game...a little early to be passing 'absolute' judgments don't you think?

LipWhen Dotel just finished off a terrible spring, comes up and shows much of the same, I'm a little worried.

Logan, OTOH, pitched well during Spring Training, which I've been trying to tell you for the past month, but you continue to just shrug it off because he's young.

Wassermann has been nothing but successful, yet you still don't want to see him pitch. I'm starting to see a pattern here.

FarWestChicago
03-31-2008, 08:29 PM
Rough day for the Masset haters.

Hendu
03-31-2008, 08:30 PM
In a way, I'm glad I didn't get to watch this game or attend. I was following along in the gameday thread, and I knew I would have been burning up with the ****ty calls, and Dotel's suckiness.

However, I'm proud of the way that we clawed back after Mark gave up the 7-spot. In the past couple seasons, that would have been the ballgame right there.

Lip Man 1
03-31-2008, 08:37 PM
OEO:

Seriously maybe I'm looking at the wrong numbers with Boone, if I am let me know why you feel differently. I saw he had a high ERA in the spring and blew three save chances. You say he 'pitched well' this spring...again this isn't trying to rip you or be sarcastic but what did you see that caused you to offer that view?

And over the weekend I posted that Wassermann should have made the team over Masset. It was wrong for the guy to stay on the big club after pitching poorly in 07 and in the spring under the same conditions as Wassermann...and he actually got guys out, just because he was out of options.

Lip

oeo
03-31-2008, 08:43 PM
OEO:

Seriously maybe I'm looking at the wrong numbers with Boone, if I am let me know why you feel differently. I saw he had a high ERA in the spring and blew three save chances. You say he 'pitched well' this spring...again this isn't trying to rip you or be sarcastic but what did you see that caused you to offer that view?

Lip

A 4.61 ERA was right in the meat of the White Sox pitching staff. Not great, not terrible. Regardless, as I mentioned before, Boone saw a lot of bad luck. There was one outing that I saw where he was really getting knocked around, otherwise, he was looking good and making hitters look foolish.

Dotel, OTOH, was right with your favorite guys like Masset, Sisco, and Day.

Tragg
03-31-2008, 08:45 PM
He was one pitch away from getting out of that jam, but the one pitch was a fat one right over the plate.

That's what Dotel does.

Lip Man 1
03-31-2008, 08:45 PM
OEO:

If he finished with a 4.61 ERA then I grant you he made a nice comeback. I remember when his ERA was nine. He still did blow the three saves though, was that all because of bad luck?

I don't know... we'll see. Maybe folks like Grebeck have a point with him, that Ozzie keeps sticking him in the wrong spots which could be part of it I guess.

Lip

Patrick134
03-31-2008, 08:46 PM
OEO:

If he finished with a 4.61 ERA then I grant you he made a nice comeback. I remember when his ERA was nine.

I don't know... we'll see. Maybe folks like Grebeck have a point with him, that Ozzie keeps sticking him in the wrong spots which could be part of it I guess.

Lip

I will say this... Hafner owned Logan up to this point, and Logan made him look silly with that last pitch. That's not to say Hafner won't crush him again someday though.

Bucky F. Dent
03-31-2008, 08:48 PM
Well, there are no moral victories in professional sports, but it seems to me that there were alot of positives to take away from the game.

From what I heard we were one bad inning from buehrle, and three bad calls from the umpires away from winning this at least nine to three.

Buehrle and Dotel obviously need to pitch better. The bottom of our lineup needs to hit better. But the top of the lineup and the rest of the bullpen played an extremely strong first game of the season.

I have faith that Buehrle will turn it around, and that we can hide Dotel.

IMHO Uribe cannot be gone fast enough. Play Ramirez at second until Richar is healthy, and put Anderson in CF.

doublem23
03-31-2008, 08:48 PM
I wasn't horribly upset by Dotel's pitching. He was hitting his spots and struck out a guy with men on base and you can even say the walk to Gutierrez was semi-intentional. He was one pitch away from getting out of that jam, but the one pitch was a fat one right over the plate.

The jam you're referring to would be the one he put himself in by giving up 2 singles and walking the bases loaded.

Chicken Dinner
03-31-2008, 08:49 PM
At least our "magic number" for being eliminated from the playoffs is still 161. :?:

BadBobbyJenks
03-31-2008, 08:54 PM
Getting away from the bad calls, loved what I saw from Swisher and Cabrera today. Orlando scoring on from first on beautiful opposite field hit from Paulie and a couple of great slides even if an ump blew one of them.

I do think just the attitude and work ethic these guys bring will mean just as much as their statistics.

ChiSoxJay
03-31-2008, 08:56 PM
I thought the umpire squeezed both starting pitchers today as well. MB needs the back door curve and knee high pitches called for strikes in order to be successful with his stuff. Even with that being said, he still left too many pitches over the heart of the plate. Hopefully he bounces back in his next start.

Dan Mega
03-31-2008, 08:57 PM
Last time I checked I think MB's ERA is nearly 5 versus Cleveland over the course of his career and they were batting like .290 against him.

I think the Indians just have his number.

Javy will do much better against the fluke Carmona.

Patrick134
03-31-2008, 08:58 PM
I thought the umpire squeezed both starting pitchers today as well. MB needs the back door curve and knee high pitches called for strikes in order to be successful with his stuff. Even with that being said, he still left too many pitches over the heart of the plate. Hopefully he bounces back in his next start.

While Dotel was awful today, if you rewatch the first batter he faced today, he throws 3 straight strikes, but 2 bad calls make the count 2-1. Not to say he still wouldn't have blown it, but who knows.

russ99
03-31-2008, 09:01 PM
The jam you're referring to would be the one he put himself in by giving up 2 singles and walking the bases loaded.

And he proceeded to strike out a guy and get a fly out to Swisher in left to hold the runners.

Here's the difference from last year. The rookies and has-beens last year completely lost focus. Dotel without his best stuff put himself in a position to get out of the inning but unfortunately, he left that 1-2 pitch over the plate.

Next time he probably won't.

Frater Perdurabo
03-31-2008, 09:03 PM
:tomatoaward :tomatoaward

HomeFish
03-31-2008, 09:08 PM
Look at bright side of things: we rallied from a 7-2 deficit. The 2007 White Sox would have lost this game 10-3, not 10-8. It's an improvement.

Today, this team convinced me that it might just be able to win 81 games after all.

duke of dorwood
03-31-2008, 09:11 PM
Those umpires were just lazy

tstrike2000
03-31-2008, 09:16 PM
Any day your pitchers give up 10 runs is one where you've crapped the bed. The umpires just smeared our faces in the feces.

Wonderful.

Jjav829
03-31-2008, 09:17 PM
Last time I checked I think MB's ERA is nearly 5 versus Cleveland over the course of his career and they were batting like .290 against him.

I think the Indians just have his number.

Javy will do much better against the fluke Carmona.

He's not a fluke. :smile:

soxfanreggie
03-31-2008, 09:18 PM
1.) I'm here with Steve Stone on this one. If we're leading, you see Linebrink and not Dotel. Granted, we should never have put ourselves in position to do this, but you have to hope that there are some ramifications for the umpires because of this.

2.) To the poster who said this game isn't even 1/2 of 1%, that would only be true if the season was over 200 games.

Foulke You
03-31-2008, 09:19 PM
Just got done reading this mega tomato thread and there seems to be two camps. The umps blew the game camp and the pitching blew the game camp. It was definitely a combo of both. Buehrle and Dotel were bad but those calls were terrible and will definitely make this Opening Day a memorable one. Why do these controversial calls always happen in Cleveland? I remember Maggs getting two homers taken away from him on two different occasions in that ballpark and I also remember some awful home plate umpiring in the past there. I dunno, but it just always seems to be in Clevleland that the umps kill us.

The Garko phantom foot on the bag cost us a run and the phantom tag of Crede at the plate was downright ridiculous. The ump was staring right at the play and I have no idea how he missed it. Now..the Cabrera play was borderline interference and normally might not have set me off but what really angered me was that a Tribe baserunner nearly killed Orlando Cabrera far out of the base line breaking up a DP earlier in the game and there was no interference call yet the ump couldn't wait to ring up Cabrera for the interference! I think this is why you saw Orlando react the way he did and I think this is also why Cabrera slid the way he did into 2B. He probably figured "hey, if they do it to me, I'll do it to them". Guess the ump had other plans.

mccoydp
03-31-2008, 09:21 PM
Mark and Octavio stunk the joint up today. Plain and simple. The offense tried, but they could only do so much. On to game #2!

MCHSoxFan
03-31-2008, 09:22 PM
If I remember correctly Burly had a rough year in '06 and started off terrible. Or was it the second half that was awful?

Second half.

Foulke You
03-31-2008, 09:27 PM
I just don't like the idea of the bottom of the order killing us over and over again like the last two years. I'd rather see Quentin down there, or even Anderson. Ramirez does need grooming.
I was thinking the same thing watching the game today. 7-9 was hurting us today while 1-6 looks very formidable. Ramirez is raw and shows promise and Crede needs to get his timing back although he did hit that one double. Crede's other ABs were definitely "old school" pre-'05 Joe Crede. Hopefully, he'll find his stroke soon. Uribe's first 3 ABs in this game nauseated me. 3 Ks and he went down swinging every time and saw maybe 4 pitches per AB. I'd like to see more Ozuna and Ramirez at 2B if Uribe doesn't show any signs of life. If 7-9 can get it going offensively this year, this team will score a ton of runs.

WhiteSox5187
03-31-2008, 09:30 PM
Gonna have to take you behind the woodshed.
Will there be rabbits?

Foulke You
03-31-2008, 09:32 PM
Two other random observations:

1) CC Sabathia looks fatter than ever. At least 15-20lbs heavier than last year. He looks 6 months pregnant in those Tribe throwback unis. We also were able to hit him pretty well today which I hope we can do all year.

2) Thome made me look silly for suggesting he shouldn't be batting 3rd against tough lefties after clobbering two HRs off of Sabathia.

gobears1987
03-31-2008, 09:32 PM
Kudos to Masset for making 99.9% of this board look like morons today.
Amen, of course the hate Ozzie crowd will still spit their ****ing venom.

Dan Mega
03-31-2008, 09:34 PM
Kudos to Masset for making 99.9% of this board look like morons today.

It was one game but yeah he was money today. Looked real sharp. Hopefully he keeps it up.

turners56
03-31-2008, 09:34 PM
Last time I checked I think MB's ERA is nearly 5 versus Cleveland over the course of his career and they were batting like .290 against him.

I think the Indians just have his number.

Javy will do much better against the fluke Carmona.

The Sox have owned Carmona in his career, he has the most loses and the worst ERA against us, while going 1-1. His career ERA against the Sox is 6.03, his 07 ERA against the Sox was 6.23.

Javy on the other hand is 5-3 with a 3.8 ERA against the Tribe in his career, looking good on paper so far.

Elephant
03-31-2008, 09:35 PM
I just have a feeling this is going to be the kind of game we see a lot of this season. Pitching gives up a ton of runs. Offense can make a game of it. Pitching ultimately fails.

More like Ozzie ultimately fails. The bullpen did a phenomenal job.

Look, Dotel gave up the knock, but he clearly shouldn't have been in there to get the third out. He had no command, it was all guts. Not his fault.

Foulke You
03-31-2008, 09:37 PM
Amen, of course the hate Ozzie crowd will still spit their ****ing venom.
Nick looked good today but let's see him do it again a few times before saying it was the right decision to keep him. Wasserman turned in many performances in '07 where he got out of jams and proved himself as a solid piece to the bullpen. Masset did not in '07 and had a horrible Spring in '08 to boot. He did well today but he is still fortunate he made the team. I'm pulling for him to do well and prove a lot of us wrong but let's try to keep things in perspective.

ksimpson14
03-31-2008, 09:37 PM
****ing umpires, there were at least 2 sure thing runs taken away, and that doesn't take into account what else the Sox could have done, especially with the ****ing bases loaded

Yeah, can't give up all those runs, but after that come back, plus momentum plays a role, that's about as ****ed over you'll get from umpires today. I'm proud of our guys.

Cleveland is better, but that's why I'm pissed, we should've won this game. Overall though, some of our problems showed up. Average (if that) defense, and trying to patch up a bullpen by signing guys who were average in the NL. The thin rotation is my other worry.

I liked Masset, but he did the same thing in the first win of the year last year, let's see some more of it. As I said in the other thread, I thought Ramirez looked horrible and had no business being out there, and one of my biggest fears came true as he just gave up an out in a HUGE at bat late in the game, he had no chance in it either.

gobears1987
03-31-2008, 09:40 PM
A lot of pop ups carried out of the park that normally wouldn't, attributing to a lot of runs.That one is pretty true. Both the 3 run HR given up by Buehrle and Thome's 2nd HR would not be HRs under normal wind conditions.

LoveYourSuit
03-31-2008, 09:40 PM
It was one game but yeah he was money today. Looked real sharp. Hopefully he keeps it up.


He saved the bullpen, even with the day off tomorrow, the bullpen needs to stay fresh with question marks like Gavin and Danks

Lip Man 1
03-31-2008, 09:41 PM
Don't know if anyone saw the post game show but Pat Boyle came right out and said the call on Crede was "terrible" and Melton agreed. Melton added the umpires were out of position on both the Crede play and the A.J. play. He said it was "surprising" that all of the calls went against the White Sox.

They agreed that Cabrera sticking out his hand is probably what caused the umpire to call interference.

Lip

Elephant
03-31-2008, 09:41 PM
That one is pretty true. Both the 3 run HR given up by Buehrle and Thome's 2nd HR would not be HRs under normal wind conditions.

Neither would've Dye's in the 9th. That was a freakin popup. Thome's second was at least not cheap, but even that did not have homer written on it when it left the bat.

turners56
03-31-2008, 09:43 PM
More like Ozzie ultimately fails. The bullpen did a phenomenal job.

Look, Dotel gave up the knock, but he clearly shouldn't have been in there to get the third out. He had no command, it was all guts. Not his fault.

This is second guessing, but I think Linebrink should of been in there after Dotel gave up the first couple of hits.

turners56
03-31-2008, 09:44 PM
Neither would've Dye's in the 9th. That was a freakin popup. Thome's second was at least not cheap, but even that did not have homer written on it when it left the bat.

Thome's second homer was a pop up, I thought it was a pop up at first, same with Dye's.

santo=dorf
03-31-2008, 09:44 PM
:?:

3.63 ERA
1.26 WHIP for Burls in '07.

What are you talking about?
about as silly as when jabrch was convinced Buehrle wasn't being re-signed and was foing to be traded.

"Buehrle is just a 3.80/1.25 pitcher!"

"I H8 STATS SO MUCH!!!11! BP!! COMPUTER!"


I'm sure if Buehrle was pitching for the Thunderbolts, he wouldn't be spouting such nonsense. :rolleyes:

Parrothead
03-31-2008, 09:45 PM
:?:

3.63 ERA
1.26 WHIP for Burls in '07.

What are you talking about?

Buehrle had a 3.63 ERA last year. That's outstanding in the American League.

I really don't know what the hell you are talking about. Aside from the second half of 2006, Buehrle has always pitched well for us.

I am talking losses...10-9 last year, 12-13 in 2006. That is a .500 pitcher in 2 years. Not great numbers. Yes, I know it matters what the offense does but he also has to get the job done, which he has not done.

turners56
03-31-2008, 09:47 PM
Don't know if anyone saw the post game show but Pat Boyle came right out and said the call on Crede was "terrible" and Melton agreed. Melton added the umpires were out of position on both the Crede play and the A.J. play. He said it was "surprising" that all of the calls went against the White Sox.

They agreed that Cabrera sticking out his hand is probably what caused the umpire to call interference.

Lip

I think that's probably why the calls were wrong. If you think about it, the Crede play, I remember thinking if Crede wasn't wearing a black uniform and Shoppach didn't have a black glove, the play would of been a different, because I think the umpire was kind of behind Shoppach. On the Garko play the umpire was right behind Garko, so he had no idea where Garko's foot really was.

santo=dorf
03-31-2008, 09:49 PM
I am talking losses...10-9 last year, 12-13 in 2006. That is a .500 pitcher in 2 years. Not great numbers. Yes, I know it matters what the offense does but he also has to get the job done, which he has not done.
That explains a lot.

He lost 9 games for a 90 game loser and 13 games for a 90 game winner.

Needless to say, your way of evaluating the performance of pitchers is quite flawed.

LoveYourSuit
03-31-2008, 09:49 PM
Don't know if anyone saw the post game show but Pat Boyle came right out and said the call on Crede was "terrible" and Melton agreed. Melton added the umpires were out of position on both the Crede play and the A.J. play. He said it was "surprising" that all of the calls went against the White Sox.

They agreed that Cabrera sticking out his hand is probably what caused the umpire to call interference.

Lip

If you look at the Cabrera play, the SS was already giving up on the throw before Cabreras even got there. He had no intention to make that throw.

The rule is left for the judgment of the umpire to determine if Cabrera's actions affected the result of the play ..... Umpire is bonehead if he did not see this right.

turners56
03-31-2008, 09:50 PM
If you look at the Cabrera play, the SS was already giving up on the throw before Cabreras even got there. He had no intention to make that throw.

The rule is left for the judgment of the umpire to determine if Cabrera's actions affected the result of the play ..... Umpire is bonehead if he did not see this right.

I doubt it, Thome isn't very fast. But Peralta might of hesitated anyhow. Anyways, it was still against the rules, that call was made correctly, Cabrera made it too obvious.

JB98
03-31-2008, 09:50 PM
I am talking losses...10-9 last year, 12-13 in 2006. That is a .500 pitcher in 2 years. Not great numbers. Yes, I know it matters what the offense does but he also has to get the job done, which he has not done.

If you really think that, then I have no chance to change your mind.

He was 10-9 on a club that went 72-90. Geez....

That bullpen was really great behind Burls last year, wasn't it?

Parrothead
03-31-2008, 09:51 PM
I'm sure if Buehrle was pitching for the Thunderbolts, he wouldn't be spouting such nonsense. :rolleyes:

Not likely, the Frontier League has an age maximum, which MB already exceeds. However, if he keeps pitching like he has been, the Jackhammers / Flyers or the Railcats could probably use him.

Elephant
03-31-2008, 09:51 PM
This is second guessing, but I think Linebrink should of been in there after Dotel gave up the first couple of hits.

If second guessing is defined by yelling at the TV in the bar as it happens, then yeah.

Ozzie can't see when a pitcher doesn't have it. He likes to leave him in and let him battle it out on guts somehow as if it were El Duque in Boston all over again. Well guess what: the three run double is what happens when you don't have a horseshoe up your ass.

Oh and yes, the umpires screwed us pretty good, but that kind of thing happens once in a blue moon and you can't do anything about it. It's encouraging that in a horribly officiated and poorly managed (and started) game, they still almost won. There was some of that hear there that you love to see. If they play like that all year they can at least be competitive.

turners56
03-31-2008, 09:52 PM
That explains a lot.

He lost 9 games for a 90 game loser and 13 games for a 90 game winner.

Needless to say, your way of evaluating the performance of pitchers is quite flawed.

ERA is more important than W-L records in this day and age. Buehrle has a career 3.7 ERA and 100+ wins in a 6 year career. I'd say Buehrle is amongst the better pitchers in the AL.

Elephant
03-31-2008, 09:53 PM
I am talking losses...10-9 last year, 12-13 in 2006. That is a .500 pitcher in 2 years. Not great numbers. Yes, I know it matters what the offense does but he also has to get the job done, which he has not done.

It doesn't matter because the ERA and WHIP are both there. Wins and losses, schmins and losses in this case.

kittle42
03-31-2008, 09:54 PM
Does Masset? Does Logan?? (he actually pitched one inning today and didn't soil himself...STOP THE PRESSES! LOL)

Thank you.

As a previous poster said, it's one game...a little early to be passing 'absolute' judgments don't you think?

Some geniuses here were passing absolute judgment after one week of spring training, so I think you could've guessed that many would be doing so after one real game.

BoysMom3
03-31-2008, 09:55 PM
I too was yelling at the tv during today's game. Eventually I just stood up with my arms up like a touchdown, looking at the tv and yelling.

turners56
03-31-2008, 09:56 PM
If second guessing is defined by yelling at the TV in the bar as it happens, then yeah.

Ozzie can't see when a pitcher doesn't have it. He likes to leave him in and let him battle it out on guts somehow as if it were El Duque in Boston all over again. Well guess what: the three run double is what happens when you don't have a horseshoe up your ass.

Oh and yes, the umpires screwed us pretty good, but that kind of thing happens once in a blue moon and you can't do anything about it. It's encouraging that in a horribly officiated and poorly managed (and started) game, they still almost won. There was some of that hear there that you love to see. If they play like that all year they can at least be competitive.

The game isn't Ozzie's fault. Dotel almost got out of the jam, what was Ozzie supposed to do? Take him out after he just got Cabrera out on a pop up? Plus, it's the first game of the season, Ozzie needs to know Dotel a bit more, maybe next time, he won't leave him in. I can't believe you're bashing Ozzie when he left Masset on this roster and saved the game for us today. If it wasn't for Masset there would of never been a game to talk about, we would all be saying how bad this team is.

Elephant
03-31-2008, 09:57 PM
Why isn't Linebrink the straight up go-to 8th inning guy?

LoveYourSuit
03-31-2008, 09:59 PM
I doubt it, Thome isn't very fast. But Peralta might of hesitated anyhow. Anyways, it was still against the rules, that call was made correctly, Cabrera made it too obvious.


One thing I do like even if against the rules is that Cabreras plays very hard out there, something we have lacked here for a good time. He went in there hard to break up two which is what he should do.

Swisher and Cabrera's style hopefully will rub off on some of our other guys.

I even saw AJ running out a grounder.

kittle42
03-31-2008, 10:00 PM
I am talking losses...10-9 last year, 12-13 in 2006. That is a .500 pitcher in 2 years. Not great numbers. Yes, I know it matters what the offense does but he also has to get the job done, which he has not done.

No matter what pitcher you are talking about, this is one of the worst evaluations of pitching I have ever seen.

Elephant
03-31-2008, 10:00 PM
The game isn't Ozzie's fault. Dotel almost got out of the jam, what was Ozzie supposed to do? Take him out after he just got Cabrera out on a pop up? Plus, it's the first game of the season, Ozzie needs to know Dotel a bit more, maybe next time, he won't leave him in. I can't believe you're bashing Ozzie when he left Masset on this roster and saved the game for us today. If it wasn't for Masset there would of never been a game to talk about, we would all be saying how bad this team is.

Dotel didn't have it, Ozzie didn't see it.

Ozzie has watched Dotel pitch for a month, let's not be ridiculous.

Masset has nothing to do with this conversation, don't be double ridiculous.

kittle42
03-31-2008, 10:02 PM
Why isn't Linebrink the straight up go-to 8th inning guy?

Because it was a tie game.

Don't get me wrong, because I think Guillen is one of the worst bullpen handlers I've seen, but if he went to Linebrink and the same thing happened, you'd all be here saying he should have gone to Dotel.

Elephant
03-31-2008, 10:02 PM
One thing I do like even if against the rules is that Cabreras plays very hard out there, something we have lacked here for a good time. He went in there hard to break up two which is what he should do.

Swisher and Cabrera's style hopefully will rub off on some of our other guys.

I even saw AJ running out a grounder.

This is where the grinder b.s. is a good thing--players with talent, e.g. Cabrera and Swisher, who also happen to play hard. I like them so far.

kittle42
03-31-2008, 10:03 PM
Since there has been much abuse of this in this thread, it is not "should of." It is "should have" or its shorted version, "should've."

Thank you!

turners56
03-31-2008, 10:04 PM
Dotel didn't have it, Ozzie didn't see it.

Ozzie has watched Dotel pitch for a month, let's not be ridiculous.

Masset has nothing to do with this conversation, don't be double ridiculous.

You're trying to say that Ozzie is a bad manager right? Well, if it wasn't for Ozzie (and Kenny) Masset wouldn't be on this team, thus we wouldn't be talking about Dotel. Spring training is not the same as the regular season, you saw that with Masset today. He was crap in spring, but he pitched great today. Blame Ozzie as much as you want, but you're second guessing right now. Had Dotel gotten out of that inning, you wouldn't be saying half the things you're saying right now.

turners56
03-31-2008, 10:06 PM
Because it was a tie game.

Don't get me wrong, because I think Guillen is one of the worst bullpen handlers I've seen, but if he went to Linebrink and the same thing happened, you'd all be here saying he should have gone to Dotel.

I have a bad feeling about Linebrink, I'm afraid that Kenny wasted 30 million on two guys who aren't good relievers anymore. Did I mention that both have been guys who have dominated in the NL and the NL only?

goon
03-31-2008, 10:07 PM
Since there has been much abuse of this in this thread, it is not "should of." It is "should have" or its shorted version, "should've."

Thank you!


Maybe you should of made this post earlier in the thread.

Elephant
03-31-2008, 10:08 PM
Don't get me wrong, because I think Guillen is one of the worst bullpen handlers I've seen, but if he went to Linebrink and the same thing happened, you'd all be here saying he should have gone to Dotel.

Yes, if Linebrink looked that ineffective, of course. And at times he will--every pitcher does. The key is to recognize that.

The thing is I find it hard to blame any pitcher today because most of them were bad. Perez and Betancourt--both sub 2 ERA guys a year ago--were ineffective, as were the two aces.

Personally, just on the gut feeling of things, I would've went with Linebrink to at least get the last out if not the last two. Sure it was a tie game, but I had confidence that they'd score in the 9th, and that came to pass.