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View Full Version : Masset or Wassermann?


A. Cavatica
03-29-2008, 08:40 PM
I'm disappointed that Wassermann didn't pitch today. I thought the Sox were going to make the decision on the last bullpen spot. Was anything said about it during the postgame?

sox1970
03-29-2008, 09:19 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080329-jose-contreras-white-sox,1,3881764.story

Masset got it. Idiots.

JB98
03-29-2008, 09:21 PM
Terrible decision. Just terrible.

This is even worse than believing Toby Hall's claim that he is healthy.

Whitesox029
03-29-2008, 09:23 PM
Somehow I knew this would happen. "I'm going to go with the best guy," said Ozzie.
So much for that. He must have been vetoed by someone who didn't want to put Masset through waivers.

Lip Man 1
03-29-2008, 09:23 PM
The "justification" for this is even more insane. Ozzie says he's looking out over the entire 162 game season, not a 30 game one :rolleyes:

So you'd rather have a garbage pitcher for an entire season so he can get hammered more often then a guy who apparently can get folks out?

So much for the "best" players heading north eh?

Toby Hall can't run, throw out any base stealers and his hitting is awful. Yet he's on the team.

Nick Masset got lit up last year and torched this spring. Yet he's on the team because according to Phil Rogers the Sox are afraid if they send him to Charlotte someone will claim him.

and Boone Logan had a mental breakdown (by his own admission) in 2006, blew up and got hammered in 2007 and blew three save chances this spring. Yet he's on the team.

Meanwhile pitchers like Wassermann and Carrasco and Okha who actually got hitters out under the same bad conditions in Tuscon were sent down..

I've always tried to defend Ozzie and Kenny but I've got to tell you, these moves have me puzzled. I thought it was about giving your club the best chance to win...not having to eat salary if clowns are released or if someone's feelings are hurt.

This is absolutely insane.

Lip

IceczMan
03-29-2008, 09:42 PM
I realize that its only the last spot in the bullpen, but its disappointing when the Sox have gone out and said that the job would go to the best pitcher, and that clearly is not the case. I almost wonder if they were waiting for Wassermann to fail to justify a move they knew going into spring training that they were going to make.

IceczMan
03-29-2008, 09:44 PM
I completely agree with you Lip. Im puzzled when I hear the rhetoric from Kenny about agressively pursuing a championship this year and then making a move like this, or relying on the word of Toby Hall, when he clearly cannot throw out a base runner.

Tragg
03-29-2008, 10:01 PM
Nick Masset got lit up last year and torched this spring. Yet he's on the team because according to Phil Rogers the Sox are afraid if they send him to Charlotte someone will claim him.
The Sox were actually in a good position to improve using this "out of options" waiver wire - with our horrific record from last year, wouldn't we get priority over most teams? Several pitchers have been claimed - and a more effective pitchers than Masset. Who would have put him on the roster? Why is Masset a long term strategy (v. 30 days that Ozzie mentioned).
We should embrace this waiver system - not fear it.
The Sox have used a lot of resources (money and prospects and players) chasing middle relievers - when they're available for free, they don't take a look.

Lorenzo Barcelo
03-29-2008, 10:09 PM
Complete bull****.

Beer Can Chicken
03-29-2008, 10:11 PM
"Guillen said Ehren Wasserman had out-pitched Masset but will start at Triple-A Charlotte because he has minor-league options left."

So much for putting the best team on the field.

If Masset pitched somewhat decently last year, I could see this reasoning justified. However, we know what Masset did last last year.

JB98
03-29-2008, 10:15 PM
"Guillen said Ehren Wasserman had out-pitched Masset but will start at Triple-A Charlotte because he has minor-league options left."

So much for putting the best team on the field.

If Masset pitched somewhat decently last year, I could see this reasoning justified. However, we know what Masset did last last year.

If Masset had pitched well this spring, it would be justified. Instead, he has been awful. He looks just as bad as he did in 2007.

A. Cavatica
03-29-2008, 10:20 PM
Ugh, that's what I was afraid of.

Masset's basically been a 4.50 ERA guy throughout his minor league career. Wassermann's been a 2.50 ERA guy, and a closer at many of his stops.

So now there are seven players on the team who don't belong: Hall, Uribe, Crede, Contreras, Floyd, MacDougal, and Masset. So much for putting the best team on the field.

Bill Naharodny
03-29-2008, 10:20 PM
If Masset had pitched well this spring, it would be justified. Instead, he has been awful. He looks just as bad as he did in 2007.

It doesn't send a very good message to your team, that's for sure.

spiffie
03-29-2008, 10:21 PM
The "justification" for this is even more insane. Ozzie says he's looking out over the entire 162 game season, not a 30 game one :rolleyes:

So you'd rather have a garbage pitcher for an entire season so he can get hammered more often then a guy who apparently can get folks out?

So much for the "best" players heading north eh?

Toby Hall can't run, throw out any base stealers and his hitting is awful. Yet he's on the team.

Nick Masset got lit up last year and torched this spring. Yet he's on the team because according to Phil Rogers the Sox are afraid if they send him to Charlotte someone will claim him.

and Boone Logan had a mental breakdown (by his own admission) in 2006, blew up and got hammered in 2007 and blew three save chances this spring. Yet he's on the team.

Meanwhile pitchers like Wassermann and Carrasco and Okha who actually got hitters out under the same bad conditions in Tuscon were sent down..

I've always tried to defend Ozzie and Kenny but I've got to tell you, these moves have me puzzled. I thought it was about giving your club the best chance to win...not having to eat salary if clowns are released or if someone's feelings are hurt.

This is absolutely insane.

Lip
You have now made a powerful enemy in skottyj.

Just remember, they won in 2005, they know best. :rolleyes:

Optipessimism
03-29-2008, 11:20 PM
*** are the Sox doing? This is ridiculous. It's like they have no plan at all.

-If the Sox cared mainly about defense then Crede and Uribe make sense, but then Anderson is your CF. Since Anderson isn't in CF then they can't say defense is their plan.

-If the Sox cared about pitching then Masset wouldn't be on the damn team. He's been horrid since he's been here. The battle for righty specialist would have been between MacDougal and Wassermann while the long relief spot would have gone to Carrasco or Ohka who have actually gotten outs. It certainly doesn't look like they are trying to assemble the best pitching staff.

-If the Sox cared about offense, Fields would be at 3B, Ramirez at 2B, Swisher in CF, and Quentin in LF. Can't use that excuse either.

-If the Sox cared about youth and the future of the team, again you'd have Fields at 3B, Ramirez at 2B, and either Quentin or Anderson would be in the OF. But that's not the case.

-If the Sox wanted to win now then Masset wouldn't be on team. Ramirez wouldn't be in center. If he can't supplant Uribe than he damn sure can't supplant Swisher, Quentin, or Anderson.

It appears to me that the Sox are taking the fans for a ride. They think they can extract a little bit of value out of players that have none, and it's a stupid game to play. Those 3-4 projects/long-shot prospects that they could conceivably get out of Crede, Uribe, and Masset are apparently worth so much to the Sox that they'd actually hold back better, more deserving, younger players with brighter futures in order to get them.

Or maybe it's some of that "Sox Pride." Maybe it's another case of believing your own propaganda and sticking to some slogan for far too long. Maybe "Sox Pride" won't let the Sox admit that hey, they made some mistakes. Masset sucks, let him go. Fields is the future and Borass refuses to negotiate, so let Crede go. Uribe has sucked big time ass 3 out of the 4 years he has been here, and now that they have a better offensive player in Cabrera, let him go. But they won't do it and it's a shame.

It personally sucks ass as a baseball fan because this team isn't going to win **** with that starting rotation. No one in their right mind believes the Sox can stand toe-to-toe with the AL elite with that staff. And hey, that's fine. But if you're going to spend a season developing young pitching, develop your damn position players too! Give the fans something better to watch than Juan Uribe swinging at **** eight inches off the plate, Joe Crede popping up balls in the infield in between media questions surrounding his eventual departure, and Nick Masset taking a gigantic **** on the rubber. I've always tried to defend Kenny but this year he ****ed up. Instead of putting a long-shot team on the field that is fun to watch he's going to put a long-shot team on the field that is a joke.

End rant.

Bill Naharodny
03-29-2008, 11:29 PM
*** are the Sox doing? This is ridiculous. It's like they have no plan at all.

-If the Sox cared mainly about defense then Crede and Uribe make sense, but then Anderson is your CF. Since Anderson isn't in CF then they can't say defense is their plan.

-If the Sox cared about pitching then Masset wouldn't be on the damn team. He's been horrid since he's been here. The battle for righty specialist would have been between MacDougal and Wassermann while the long relief spot would have gone to Carrasco or Ohka who have actually gotten outs. It certainly doesn't look like they are trying to assemble the best pitching staff.

-If the Sox cared about offense, Fields would be at 3B, Ramirez at 2B, Swisher in CF, and Quentin in LF. Can't use that excuse either.

-If the Sox cared about youth and the future of the team, again you'd have Fields at 3B, Ramirez at 2B, and either Quentin or Anderson would be in the OF. But that's not the case.

-If the Sox wanted to win now then Masset wouldn't be on team. Ramirez wouldn't be in center. If he can't supplant Uribe than he damn sure can't supplant Swisher, Quentin, or Anderson.

It appears to me that the Sox are taking the fans for a ride. They think they can extract a little bit of value out of players that have none, and it's a stupid game to play. Those 3-4 projects/long-shot prospects that they could conceivably get out of Crede, Uribe, and Masset are apparently worth so much to the Sox that they'd actually hold back better, more deserving, younger players with brighter futures in order to get them.

Or maybe it's some of that "Sox Pride." Maybe it's another case of believing your own propaganda and sticking to some slogan for far too long. Maybe "Sox Pride" won't let the Sox admit that hey, they made some mistakes. Masset sucks, let him go. Fields is the future and Borass refuses to negotiate, so let Crede go. Uribe has sucked big time ass 3 out of the 4 years he has been here, and now that they have a better offensive player in Cabrera, let him go. But they won't do it and it's a shame.

It personally sucks ass as a baseball fan because this team isn't going to win **** with that starting rotation. No one in their right mind believes the Sox can stand toe-to-toe with the AL elite with that staff. And hey, that's fine. But if you're going to spend a season developing young pitching, develop your damn position players too! Give the fans something better to watch than Juan Uribe swinging at **** eight inches off the plate, Joe Crede popping up balls in the infield in between media questions surrounding his eventual departure, and Nick Masset taking a gigantic **** on the rubber. I've always tried to defend Kenny but this year he ****ed up. Instead of putting a long-shot team on the field that is fun to watch he's going to put a long-shot team on the field that is a joke.

End rant.

As Sonny Corleone said: "This is business. And this man is taking it very personal."

Fantastic.

EndemicSox
03-30-2008, 12:17 AM
Nice to see Kenny Williams letting ego interfere with logic...Masset is a lost cause, as we will soon find out...

LoveYourSuit
03-30-2008, 12:50 AM
Everyone has been preaching that this team cannot afford to get off to a slow start in this division....... It looks like there are 4-5 guys who have barely made this time that will be up here on last minute auditions and will be dumped if they suck in April.


If we suck in April then kiss the division good bye...... another BOLD move by this team. :rolleyes:

JGarlandrules20
03-30-2008, 01:01 AM
I understand how important and underrated long relief pitching is to a team and I see how Masset fits that role. I just don't understand how a guy like Wassermann can be left off the roster. He was pretty much the only guy to come out of the pen late last season and get outs.

I think he'll be back on the roster soon enough. I hope.

JB98
03-30-2008, 01:03 AM
I understand how important and underrated long relief pitching is to a team and I see how Masset fits that role. I just don't understand how a guy like Wassermann can be left off the roster. He was pretty much the only guy to come out of the pen late last season and get outs.

I think he'll be back on the roster soon enough. I hope.

I don't think Masset fits in any role. He was in the long-relief role last year, and he was mostly horrible at it.

LoveYourSuit
03-30-2008, 01:04 AM
I understand how important and underrated long relief pitching is to a team and I see how Masset fits that role. I just don't understand how a guy like Wassermann can be left off the roster. He was pretty much the only guy to come out of the pen late last season and get outs.

I think he'll be back on the roster soon enough. I hope.


yup he will be..... right after Massett blows a couple of key games against the division in April.

Not saying Wassermann is the second coming of Mariano Rivera, but next to Masset it's a no brainer on who should be here.

JGarlandrules20
03-30-2008, 01:07 AM
I don't think Masset fits in any role. He was in the long-relief role last year, and he was mostly horrible at it.

I think he only made the team to eat up innings. If one of our starters gets taken out early [which seems like a definitely possibility with the back end of our rotation this season], we need a guy to come in and not burn out our pen for the next few games.

Who in the bullpen can go more than 2 innings? I don't see anyone besides Masset right now....

santo=dorf
03-30-2008, 01:08 AM
Yep, nothing like building a team by refusing to part with guys who you made a mistake of acquiring/bringing back or the number of remaining options instead of performance.

Heaven forbid you take a hit to the ego for making the team better for the season.

Idiots.
Who in the bullpen can go more than 2 innings? I don't see anyone besides Masset right now....
Former starter and ineffective LOOGY who Ozzie still uses against lefties exclusively, Matt Thornton, can be the mop up man.

If a team is making a decision like this for their mop up duty man, what does that say about the rotation?

JGarlandrules20
03-30-2008, 01:22 AM
Former starter and ineffective LOOGY who Ozzie still uses against lefties exclusively, Matt Thornton, can be the mop up man.

If a team is making a decision like this for their mop up duty man, what does that say about the rotation?

With the elbow issues he's had this spring? I don't feel safe with that.

Haha, true. I'm holding my breath this season..

WhiteSox5187
03-30-2008, 02:50 AM
I have absolutely no evidence of this at all, but I am willing to bet that Ozzie wanted to go with Wasserman but Kenny said "No, we have to go with Masset because he would be placed on waivers." That's just idle speculation but something in my gut says that that is the case (could be the Mexican food I had for dinner though).

This is just a terrible terrible descion. Almost as bad as it was to go with Hall (but when ya money invested in the guy, you'd hate to make Kenny look bad). Maybe they're hoping he'll have a couple of good performances and then they can trade him? But he's not the answer for the '08 bullpen nor is he the answer for the '09 bullpen. We have yet to play a game, so I'm not threatening to jump off the cliff here, but this is certainly NOT the way I'd like the season to start. Our best team isn't even out there.

ChiTownTrojan
03-30-2008, 07:31 AM
Nice to see Kenny Williams letting ego interfere with logic...Masset is a lost cause, as we will soon find out...
Just about everyone seems pretty angry here, so let me summarize the Sox's logic. And contrary to many opinions here, it is based on logic, not Kenny Williams' or anybody else's ego.

If they had a lot of guys in the minors right now who could be brought up and fill a bullpen slot, this would be a no brainer, see you Masset, don't let the door hit you on your way out. But they are extremely thin at RP, and pitching in general. So if you have a guy with some talent, you can't afford to give him away for nothing. Masset does have talent, he's got good stuff, he just hasn't put it all together yet. Maybe he never will, but the Sox aren't in position to let talent go. Ozzie and Kenny see these guys every day, and if they say there is still hope left for Masset, then I don't think any of us can argue with them.

And it's not like we're talking about someone we're going to rely on heavily. I doubt Masset will ever enter a game when we're ahead, or even within 3 runs. As someone else said, he's there to eat up garbage innings, with no pressure on him, and maybe show some improvement. Leave guys like Thornton for more important situations.

Lastly, when was the last time you've seen a bullpen stay the same all year long? Wasserman will be the first guy up, when there's an injury (think Dotel), or someone gets sent down for ineffectiveness. If we kept Wasserman on the team, then we wouldn't have that next guy waiting to be called up who has ML experience and can get guys out.

A. Cavatica
03-30-2008, 08:06 AM
Ohka could be the long reliever. :dunno:

But with a seven-man pen, you really shouldn't need one.

Frontman
03-30-2008, 08:22 AM
Just about everyone seems pretty angry here, so let me summarize the Sox's logic. And contrary to many opinions here, it is based on logic, not Kenny Williams' or anybody else's ego.

If they had a lot of guys in the minors right now who could be brought up and fill a bullpen slot, this would be a no brainer, see you Masset, don't let the door hit you on your way out. But they are extremely thin at RP, and pitching in general. So if you have a guy with some talent, you can't afford to give him away for nothing. Masset does have talent, he's got good stuff, he just hasn't put it all together yet. Maybe he never will, but the Sox aren't in position to let talent go. Ozzie and Kenny see these guys every day, and if they say there is still hope left for Masset, then I don't think any of us can argue with them.

And it's not like we're talking about someone we're going to rely on heavily. I doubt Masset will ever enter a game when we're ahead, or even within 3 runs. As someone else said, he's there to eat up garbage innings, with no pressure on him, and maybe show some improvement. Leave guys like Thornton for more important situations.

Lastly, when was the last time you've seen a bullpen stay the same all year long? Wasserman will be the first guy up, when there's an injury (think Dotel), or someone gets sent down for ineffectiveness. If we kept Wasserman on the team, then we wouldn't have that next guy waiting to be called up who has ML experience and can get guys out.


"Dag gum right. I luv it when you analyse. I just don't like the fact you had to."
:hawk

The problem is exactly how you said. Right now, with a depleted farm system, especially in pitching; just to give Masset away (which trying to push him through waivers would be) just hurts the team.

We just have to look at the Sox as a team with a 24 man roster for now.

And I like Wassermann too.

spiffie
03-30-2008, 08:30 AM
"Dag gum right. I luv it when you analyse. I just don't like the fact you had to."

:hawk

The problem is exactly how you said. Right now, with a depleted farm system, especially in pitching; just to give Masset away (which trying to push him through waivers would be) just hurts the team.

We just have to look at the Sox as a team with a 24 man roster for now.


And I like Wassermann too.

When you're keeping a guy who makes even a defender of the decision say something like "We just have to look at the Sox as a team with a 24 man roster for now" it seems hard to see any way in which the team is better off with this move. At some point he will get in a game, probably many of them knowing Ozzie Guillen's managerial tendencies. And that is a bad thing.

russ99
03-30-2008, 08:45 AM
Ohka could be the long reliever. :dunno:

But with a seven-man pen, you really shouldn't need one.

Sorry, but Ohka has no business being on a major league team. Plus guys like Okha are the ones waived this time of year, not a guy who has the potential like Masset, despite how poorly he's pitched lately.

My take is there are a lot of guys on the roster being put into a "produce or you're gone" situation, which isn't an especially bad thing. Those who don't produce are replaced with the kids we have that will. No one's being handed a job based on salary or if Kenny doesn't like them. I actually think this is refreshing, rather than last year when we knew we were stuck with underperforming guys all season.

While I'm not thrilled with the decision, I understand it. Without throwing a career AAA player into that long man spot, the Sox would rather take a shot on Masset turning things around than sidetracking a prospect starter's (such as Broadway) development. Think of it, this is the exact role Brandon McCarthy had 2-3 years ago and look how it hurt his career.

Wassermann will be up with the big club soon enough and I'd bet on him replacing MacDougal at some point this season. I wonder if we really need 12 pitchers this time of year anyway.

Craig Grebeck
03-30-2008, 08:45 AM
Lip, get off of Logan's case. He's a fantastic LOOGY. If our manager knew what he was doing he wouldn't put him in against righties.

It's Dankerific
03-30-2008, 08:45 AM
to quote:

2005
Under the radar
High Ceiling
Just wait till we hit our stride.


Someone said this was a 24 man roster? with Toby Hall, thats a 23 man roster. And, he definitely looks in worse shape than he did last year. Good news? Probably wont be bowled over at the plate!!!

TomBradley72
03-30-2008, 09:14 AM
Just about everyone seems pretty angry here, so let me summarize the Sox's logic. And contrary to many opinions here, it is based on logic, not Kenny Williams' or anybody else's ego.

If they had a lot of guys in the minors right now who could be brought up and fill a bullpen slot, this would be a no brainer, see you Masset, don't let the door hit you on your way out. But they are extremely thin at RP, and pitching in general. So if you have a guy with some talent, you can't afford to give him away for nothing. Masset does have talent, he's got good stuff, he just hasn't put it all together yet. Maybe he never will, but the Sox aren't in position to let talent go. Ozzie and Kenny see these guys every day, and if they say there is still hope left for Masset, then I don't think any of us can argue with them.

And it's not like we're talking about someone we're going to rely on heavily. I doubt Masset will ever enter a game when we're ahead, or even within 3 runs. As someone else said, he's there to eat up garbage innings, with no pressure on him, and maybe show some improvement. Leave guys like Thornton for more important situations.

Lastly, when was the last time you've seen a bullpen stay the same all year long? Wasserman will be the first guy up, when there's an injury (think Dotel), or someone gets sent down for ineffectiveness. If we kept Wasserman on the team, then we wouldn't have that next guy waiting to be called up who has ML experience and can get guys out.

Very well said.

I doubt the 12th guy on the pitching staff is going to impact a lot of games early in the season. If Masset can pitch decently now that we're out of Arizona, we've preserved a little of our paper thin pitching depth in the organization. If he doesn't (and he probably won't...he's never had an ERA under 4.15 above AA)..then Wassermann is an option.

If you truly want to stare into the abyss...take a look at what our options are in the organization AFTER Wassermann in case we have an injury or two this year. In 2005...we were able to bring up Jenks from AA to be our closer and McCarthy from AAA to help out in the rotation. We won't have that type of depth to draw from this year. Or next.

Fungo
03-30-2008, 09:22 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080329-jose-contreras-white-sox,1,3881764.story


The Sox picked Nick Masset for the one vacancy on the pitching staff. Guillen said Ehren Wasserman had out-pitched Masset but will start at Triple-A Charlotte because he has minor-league options left.

Not the greatest reasoning. Let's hope Nick figures it out soon.

gogosox16
03-30-2008, 09:26 AM
So this is practically saying that since Masset doesn't have any options left, that he will stay with the team the whole year.....Great :rolleyes:

oeo
03-30-2008, 10:37 AM
The "justification" for this is even more insane. Ozzie says he's looking out over the entire 162 game season, not a 30 game one :rolleyes:

Lip, what do you want him to say? I can almost guarantee you that this wasn't his decision.

They should be asking Kenny Williams these questions.

Lip, get off of Logan's case. He's a fantastic LOOGY. If our manager knew what he was doing he wouldn't put him in against righties.

Actually, down the stretch last year, he was successful against both.

I think Logan can be an excellent reliever (not just a LOOGY). People (mostly Lip) forget that he's still only 23.

soltrain21
03-30-2008, 10:42 AM
Thanks for putting the best team on the field you can, White Sox.

Jjav829
03-30-2008, 10:47 AM
If a team is making a decision like this for their mop up duty man, what does that say about the rotation?

That we have two guys at the back of our rotation that 29 others team would like to have.

This move does kind of undercut what Kenny has said all along. If the Sox believe so much in Floyd and Danks, then why carry a 7th reliever whose only real value comes in that he can pitch multiple innings when needed?

And if they truly believe that Masset is this great pitcher who just hasn't broken out yet, and are afraid of losing him, then I'd question their evaluation of him.

kevingrt
03-30-2008, 11:02 AM
I'm still livid Masset made the team over Wassermann. How the hell does that happen? Who gives a crap if we lose Masset to waivers? He sucked and has always sucked. Awww, I am angry!

The Immigrant
03-30-2008, 11:07 AM
Ohka is not an option because he's not on the 40-man roster. A lot would have to go wrong to see him up here.

As far as minor league depth, both Broadway and Haeger are better options for mop-up duty than Massett.

soxinem1
03-30-2008, 11:13 AM
A lot of questionable roster decisions and line-up/position possibilities so far, and its still more than 24 hours till Opening Day.

With some of Guillen's thinking, I'm suprised Contreras is not the OD starter again.

oeo
03-30-2008, 11:17 AM
If they had a lot of guys in the minors right now who could be brought up and fill a bullpen slot, this would be a no brainer, see you Masset, don't let the door hit you on your way out. But they are extremely thin at RP, and pitching in general. So if you have a guy with some talent, you can't afford to give him away for nothing. Masset does have talent, he's got good stuff, he just hasn't put it all together yet. Maybe he never will, but the Sox aren't in position to let talent go. Ozzie and Kenny see these guys every day, and if they say there is still hope left for Masset, then I don't think any of us can argue with them.

Masset is just like Aardsma, Sisco, etc. He throws everything hard...he wouldn't change speeds if he had a gun to his head. Talent, schmalent...when you don't know how to pitch, you're going to get knocked around.

And it's not like we're talking about someone we're going to rely on heavily. I doubt Masset will ever enter a game when we're ahead, or even within 3 runs. As someone else said, he's there to eat up garbage innings, with no pressure on him, and maybe show some improvement. Leave guys like Thornton for more important situations.I hate this logic. A bullpen's duty isn't just holding a lead, it's keeping the game close in general, so the offense is given a chance to come back. So if we're down by 4, it's okay to bring Masset in so that we're suddenly down by 10? Is the game over when you're down by 4 in the 4th or 5th inning? I guess it is when you bring Masset in...

Lastly, when was the last time you've seen a bullpen stay the same all year long? Wasserman will be the first guy up, when there's an injury (think Dotel), or someone gets sent down for ineffectiveness. If we kept Wasserman on the team, then we wouldn't have that next guy waiting to be called up who has ML experience and can get guys out.I doubt Masset lasts that long...I just hope he doesn't **** games up while he's here.

Domeshot17
03-30-2008, 11:24 AM
I understand this in a way.

(1) Its Business, it is the same reason why Hall is here and not Phillips. Masset has to high of a ceiling to let him go for free, and someone will claim him. He may be at his floor right now, but for everyone saying let him go, if Kenny did, and say a pitching thin team claimed him, and he breaks out to his potential, you would be the same ones blasting Kenny for being an idiot and letting him walk

(2) We are talking the garbage time of Ball Games. Up or Down 5 runs. We don't have one reliever who can go 3 innings in the bullpen right now. Wasserman is not built to go long. we are paying Dotel and Linebrink, so it is not like Ehren is looking at a set up role. For the job at hand, Masset has one thing Wass does not, the Endurance.

(3) At the end of the day this is better for Ehren. He will go down to triple A and anchor a bullpen. He will get a lot of tough, quality innings down there and not the garbage time innings up here once a week. It is the same reason you want your top prospects to play everyday at Triple A and not be the 5th OF on the pros.

(4) Masset at the end of the day still has a lot of upside. He kills himself nibbling the corners of the plate, but he has a good live arm with a hard breaking ball. He is at the point of his career where it is either put it together or find a new profession, but he could be really good.

I like Ehren a lot. I think he has a much brighter future ahead of himself. But that role when he gets here will be in the 7th-8th-9th inning when things are tight, not the 5th-8th when the game is over one way or another.

Lip Man 1
03-30-2008, 12:25 PM
This and That:

Craig:

"Lip, get off of Logan's case. He's a fantastic LOOGY. (When he's not having a mental breakdown on the mound, getting hammered-- allowing key home runs, and blowing saves in both the real season and the spring training one.")

Fixed it for ya!

Tom:

Granted Masset doesn't mean the difference between making the post season or not but think about this. Wassmerman (directly quoting Ozzie) "outperformed" Masset yet he's on the team. You can make the same case for the kids over Hall and then Carrasco or Okha over Logan.

I thought the object was to take the best 25 players north who give you the best chance to win? What impression does this give the players, especially those right now watching this unfold say at the Triple A level? Also one can make a case that in reality the Sox don't have a 25 man roster...they have a 22 or 23 or 24 man one. This isn't the NFL..you don't have 45 guys to choose from. You need absolutely every last guy to perform at the top of their ability to win.

OEO:

I like a lot of the points you bring up but regarding 'what is Ozzie supposed to say?'..I know it's wishful thinking but I remember Ozzie being directly quoted as saying over the past season that he wouldn't "lie to the fans." For a guy who supposedly "speaks his mind," if what you infer, that this was Kenny's decision is true, then Ozzie should come out and say, "you need to ask the G.M...it was his call."

I mean what is Kenny going to do? Fire him??

Lip

Soxfest
03-30-2008, 12:27 PM
So much for the best 25 guys go north scenerio, KW needs to just admit bust Masset is 25 and NOT getting the job done! http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/gosoxretro.gif

Frontman
03-30-2008, 12:28 PM
When you're keeping a guy who makes even a defender of the decision say something like "We just have to look at the Sox as a team with a 24 man roster for now" it seems hard to see any way in which the team is better off with this move. At some point he will get in a game, probably many of them knowing Ozzie Guillen's managerial tendencies. And that is a bad thing.

I'm not defending it, per se; I'm saying I understand the logic. There's a difference.

If I was in the Sox management, I'd risk him being taken to keep Wasserman on the MLB roster. Either way is a risk, as he'll see action and possibly will get lit up like a Christmas tree. But then again, he might be fine *snicker* and all will be well.

And there is no way in hairy heck that the bullpen tomorrow will be the same bullpen in the end of August. Injuries, possibly trades, other x-factors might force a move on the Sox.

Chicken Dinner
03-30-2008, 01:17 PM
Masset is out of options for a reason. He sucks!:scratch:

Dan Mega
03-30-2008, 02:37 PM
Masset is out of options for a reason. He sucks!:scratch:

No kidding. First Ramirez over BA and now this. What a joke.

Cuck the Fubs
03-30-2008, 02:38 PM
No kidding. First Ramirez over BA and now this. What a joke.

We haven't even played a regular season game and people are already on the ledge :?:

Dan Mega
03-30-2008, 02:40 PM
We haven't even played a regular season game and people are already on the ledge :?:

What's next, you'll insult my grammar?

Cuck the Fubs
03-30-2008, 02:42 PM
What's next, you'll insult my grammar?

Not a chance in hell :D:

But do come in off the ledge.......at least for now.

IF things go horribly wrong this season, I'll buy us both a cup of coffee and bring some seat cushions for the ledge :wink:

Dan Mega
03-30-2008, 02:43 PM
Not a chance in hell :D:

But do come in off the ledge.......at least for now.

IF things go horribly wrong this season, I'll buy us both a cup of coffee and bring some seat cushions for the ledge :wink:

Expressing my dismay for some of the odd decisions by Sox management isn't being "on the ledge".

Its seeing that despite Masset sucking, he made the team over a more deserving Wassermann.

Cuck the Fubs
03-30-2008, 02:45 PM
Expressing my dismay for some of the odd decisions by Sox management isn't being "on the ledge".

Its seeing that despite Masset sucking, he made the team over a more deserving Wassermann.

Fair enough!!!

I retract my ledge statement, my apologies....I do agree Wassermann deserved it more, and I also think he'll be with the big boy club sooner than later.

Dan Mega
03-30-2008, 02:48 PM
Fair enough!!!

I retract my ledge statement, my apologies....I do agree Wassermann deserved it more, and I also think he'll be with the big boy club sooner than later.

No problem.

If I said we will have no chance before the season even started, thats being on the ledge. But who knows what can happen :cool:

Cuck the Fubs
03-30-2008, 02:49 PM
No problem.

If I said we will have no chance before the season even started, thats being on the ledge. But who knows what can happen :cool:

The coffee & seat cushion offer still stands :redneck

Foulke You
03-30-2008, 03:47 PM
Ugh, I'm not happy at all about Masset making this team. What the heck are the Sox thinking here? Outside of Bobby Jenks, Wasserman was the only other reliever in '07 to actually record outs. Is Kenny that in love with the radar gun that much to make this move? You don't need to justify the McCarthy trade because it isn't like Brandon went to Texas and won a Cy Young.

Perhaps this is the pessimistic Sox fan in me coming out but with rain in the forecast tomorrow, Masset could very well find himself into tomorrow's ballgame if Buehrle pitches 3 innings and then the tarp goes on the field for 2 hours. How many games does Masset have to suck before they cut him loose and bring up Wasserman. The only thing I can think of is that they are hoping Masset performs at a serviceable level in April so they can trade him to a team desperate for pitching. Here's hoping the cold weather helps Masset throw better than he did in Arizona.

Chicken Dinner
03-30-2008, 03:51 PM
This is the only thing that I can think of that Masset actually did right.



http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn300/azingve/Wrigley2007050.jpg

Foulke You
03-30-2008, 03:54 PM
Craig:

"Lip, get off of Logan's case. He's a fantastic LOOGY. (When he's not having a mental breakdown on the mound, getting hammered-- allowing key home runs, and blowing saves in both the real season and the spring training one.")

Fixed it for ya!

Count me in the group of people that is underwhelmed with the performance of Boone Logan and his career 5.87 E.R.A. Boone seems to have a vocal and loyal following here on WSI but he hasn't shown me the ability to consistently be a good reliever at the MLB level.

Right handers destroy Logan (.367 avg against last year). He does much better against lefties overall but there were many games last year where he came in to face his one or two lefties and ended up walking them setting up a big inning. He did impress me by getting out Justin Morneau a couple key times last year where I think his "legend" was made in the minds of some people. If Ozzie did just use him as a lefty specialist a la Kelly Wunsch, he'd probably have more success but Ozzie doesn't use him that way so he shouldn't be on the '08 roster.

A. Cavatica
03-30-2008, 04:25 PM
If Ozzie did just use him as a lefty specialist a la Kelly Wunsch, he'd probably have more success but Ozzie doesn't use him that way so he shouldn't be on the '08 roster.

I completely agree. Ozzie doesn't use him that way, so Ozzie shouldn't be on the '08 roster.

Elephant
03-30-2008, 04:31 PM
Masset sucks.

Another day, another bad decision.

Dan Mega
03-30-2008, 04:39 PM
Masset sucks.

Another day, another bad decision.

How quickly you forget what happened in 2005!

A. Cavatica
03-30-2008, 04:44 PM
How quickly you forget what happened in 2005!


We remember 2005 perfectly. We also remember the nose dive in 2006, and the complete train wreck in 2007.

Craig Grebeck
03-30-2008, 07:35 PM
Lip, seriously? Look at the statistics. He owns lefties. He's a fantastic LOOGY. Don't be obtuse with selective memories.

TomBradley72
03-30-2008, 07:48 PM
Lip, seriously? Look at the statistics. He owns lefties. He's a fantastic LOOGY. Don't be obtuse with selective memories.

This is the 2nd comment I've read in the last few minutes using the word "obtuse". Man are we desperate for the season to start or what?

Lip Man 1
03-30-2008, 07:54 PM
Craig:

Except Ozzie doesn't only use him against left handers...right?

If a pitcher who is supposed to get hitters out, be they left handed, right handed or ambidextrous can't, then what good is he?

Enough of this "specialization" garbage. Pitchers are supposed to get hitters out, period.

If he can't, he doesn't belong on the damn roster, especially if you have someone (or if this case a few guys) who can.

Those "selective" memories have comprised the bulk of Boone Logan's short, undistinguished major league career.

Lip

Craig Grebeck
03-30-2008, 07:59 PM
If you don't understand the value of LOOGYs or specialization guys, then there's no use debating you. You simply don't get baseball.

Lip Man 1
03-30-2008, 08:01 PM
Craig:

You are right. I don't!

LOL

:rolleyes:

I hope Boone does well this season, at long as the Sox insist on keeping him up on the roster he needs to perform. I just wouldn't bet your house or your life on the possibility of him doing anything more then wetting the bed.

Lip

Craig Grebeck
03-30-2008, 08:05 PM
Craig:

You are right. I don't!

LOL

:rolleyes:

I hope Boone does well this season, at long as the Sox insist on keeping him up on the roster he needs to perform. I just wouldn't bet your house or your life on the possibility of him doing anything more then wetting the bed.

Lip

Perhaps if his manager put him in positions he is suited to succeed in he won't "wet the bed." He is a LOOGY, something that is valuable and worthy so long as the manager knows his ass from a hole in the ground.

JB98
03-30-2008, 11:19 PM
I think he only made the team to eat up innings. If one of our starters gets taken out early [which seems like a definitely possibility with the back end of our rotation this season], we need a guy to come in and not burn out our pen for the next few games.

Who in the bullpen can go more than 2 innings? I don't see anyone besides Masset right now....

IMO, Carrasco should have made the club in the long-relief role.

LoveYourSuit
03-30-2008, 11:24 PM
My take on a few of these last roster decisions by this team is like they are offering extended spring training to some of these guys (Toby, Nick, etc).

I guess since "Detroit is chasing us" per Kenny, we can take this luxury and blow off the entire month of April in finding out if some of the "on" switches on these guys finaly switch open. :rolleyes:

Lip Man 1
03-30-2008, 11:41 PM
JB:

EXACTLY correct!

Lip

JGarlandrules20
03-30-2008, 11:52 PM
IMO, Carrasco should have made the club in the long-relief role.

That would have made more sense, but he's not "out of options."

I hope Masset really proves people wrong with this lucky opportunity he's been handed...

spiffie
03-31-2008, 01:24 AM
Craig:

Except Ozzie doesn't only use him against left handers...right?

If a pitcher who is supposed to get hitters out, be they left handed, right handed or ambidextrous can't, then what good is he?

Enough of this "specialization" garbage. Pitchers are supposed to get hitters out, period.

If he can't, he doesn't belong on the damn roster, especially if you have someone (or if this case a few guys) who can.

Those "selective" memories have comprised the bulk of Boone Logan's short, undistinguished major league career.

Lip
Blaming Logan for Ozzie putting him in bad situations is like blaming Robbie Gould for playing poorly if Lovie Smith puts him in at middle linebacker.

And really, if we are going to use this logic across all parts of the team, Jim Thome has no business being here, since he hits lefties about as well as Logan throws to righties. The problem is I know this about these guys. You know this about these guys. Ozzie...he may know it, but he sure doesn't act on it. I guess he's just making sure not to get involved in any pencil-****ing numbers stuff.

Bucky F. Dent
03-31-2008, 07:37 AM
Should have been Wasserman, but I understand why Massett was given the nod (options).

infohawk
03-31-2008, 08:54 AM
Should have been Wasserman, but I understand why Massett was given the nod (options).
I was upset this morning when I saw that Massett was given the spot over Wasserman, because he clearly didn't win it. I kind of feel bad for Wasserman. He's done everything he could to be a part of this team. I understand that Massett's out of options, but he can't help right now in the way that I believe Wasserman can. I certainly hope that the Sox are banking on Massett eventually capitalizing on his upside and perhaps being more than a long-reliever.

turners56
03-31-2008, 09:12 AM
Why is Masset on this team? He sucked this spring.

redsand22
03-31-2008, 10:50 PM
Why is Masset on this team? He sucked this spring.
I was right there with you... until today!!

A. Cavatica
03-31-2008, 11:07 PM
I was right there with you... until today!!

You'll be back. :rolleyes: