PDA

View Full Version : Is There Anyone Else Out There Who Really Doesn't Like This Team As Constructed?


Thome25
03-25-2008, 05:53 PM
If you want to call me a chicken little fine. If you want bash my opinion then that's fine too. But, here's my totally unbiased opinion and that IS essentially what this site is all about.

This team has more questions than answers. I really don't like how it's constructed. There is way more questions than answers when it comes to the 2008 version of the Chicago White Sox.

We have no true leadoff hitter or 2B, The pitching staff has WAY too many questions right now for my liking and it seems like KW is sending guys out there because of how high their salaries are rather than playing the guys who really deserve it.

That isn't exactly how I want to go into battle in one of the toughest (if not the toughest) divisions in baseball.

I've been watching baseball for a long while now and I have a bad feeling going into this season. (I seriously hope I'm wrong) But, I hope someone gives KW a reason to blow this thing up, start trading guys and get some new (and younger) talent in here in a hurry.

Let's build this team they way the Cleveland Indians have: By using good home grown, hungry, young ballplayers. NOT the way we're currently constructed.

Lip Man 1
03-25-2008, 06:05 PM
Thome:

Nothing is ever as simple as it seems to be. I'm not knocking you for your opinion, I share many of the concerns you listed.

But the alternative is to gut the club, sign a bunch of kids and "hope" they develop like the Indians have.

Two things that are serious issues with that thinking:

1. In the last 15 years has the Sox scouting and minor league player development department been able to develop ENOUGH good young players in quality AND quantity AND all in a short time frame? The answer is no, so what makes you think this development is going to change now? I think it's Daver who makes the point (and I don't know if it's true or not) that the Sox haven't increased their scouting budget in that time frame. If that is true, that's a serious indictment.

2. So soon after the World Series, can the Sox afford to take the chance of failing miserably for two, three or four years while these kids develop? Could they afford to have say attendance drop to under two million like in the "bad old days" of the late 90's?

I don't have the answers to these questions, that's why people like Kenny and Brooks and the folks in charge of scouting and development make the money they do, but they are serious question that could have major repercussions if not handled correctly.

Lip

kittle42
03-25-2008, 06:14 PM
There are many shades of gray, but just to be simple here, I generally expect a 3rd-4th place finish.

peeonwrigley
03-25-2008, 06:15 PM
There's a lot of uncertainty. That bothers me. I don't like the reliance and Danks and Floyd (I could live w/ one of them). I don't like that we're still slow. I don't like that the likely front runner for CF sucks at defense. I don't like that Crede and Fields are in the positions they are in - and that Uribe was placed on waivers and then named a starter within days. The clubhouse seems like it will be a little shaky until a lot of these issues are ironed out.

The construction itself - eh, whatever. I could give a **** if we're winning with our guys, high priced free agents, former Cubs, a double play tandem of Ozzie and Joey - don't care. I just want to win.

Optipessimism
03-25-2008, 06:17 PM
I voted no but I don't agree with the "blow it up" part. There's no reason to bomb what is already rubble.

Now the Sox could easily CHANGE this by May, adding Richar/Ramirez as the everyday 2B, Fields as the everyday 3B, cutting Owens out of the picture and subbing either Anderson or Quentin as the starter with the other getting AB's as a back-up, getting Uribe the hell out of here in favor of Bourgeois if nothing else, etc. but it will be up to Kenny and Ozzie. My gut tells me changes that favor our youthful future won't come until mid-season if they come at all.

ilsox7
03-25-2008, 06:21 PM
This team, as most other teams, will live and die with its pitching staff. If JV and MB pitch as expected and one of the other three is above average with the remaining two average, they will contend. If they fall short of that, it will be a long season.

voodoochile
03-25-2008, 06:28 PM
There are many shades of gray, but just to be simple here, I generally expect a 3rd-4th place finish.

Certainly a probability, but at least there is some hope for the future. That's as exciting as anything is that even if things don't break right for the Sox this year, next year they are going to be much improved with a lot less questions entering Spring Training and money will start to loosen up too either next year or the year after.

daveuic
03-25-2008, 06:30 PM
In all of the years of watching baseball, I have never gone into a season thinking this one is a can't miss. I was overly thrilled with the '05 team make up - until late April that is. Let it play out... hopefully Kenny will make a move if needed. Just pray for no injuries... my biggest concern is lack of depth.

veeter
03-25-2008, 06:39 PM
Certainly a probability, but at least there is some hope for the future. That's as exciting as anything is that even if things don't break right for the Sox this year, next year they are going to be much improved with a lot less questions entering Spring Training and money will start to loosen up too either next year or the year after.I really like this assessment. A year after losing 90, why would we expect to win 90 or more. We will be better, and next year even better than this year. The fact Kenny didn't land any of those huge contract guys this off-season will, IMO, be great down the line. This year, however will provide for some great moments, I have a feeling.

btrain929
03-25-2008, 07:03 PM
I really like this assessment. A year after losing 90, why would we expect to win 90 or more. We will be better, and next year even better than this year. The fact Kenny didn't land any of those huge contract guys this off-season will, IMO, be great down the line. This year, however will provide for some great moments, I have a feeling.

I'm going on record and predicting a Javier Vazquez perfect game, a 4 HR performance by Nick Swisher, and a cycle by Carlos Quentin AND Alexei Ramirez by season's end.

If not, well, I'll get over it....

WhiteSox5187
03-25-2008, 07:21 PM
I'd feel a hell of a lot better if we had a legit leadoff hitter and another starter.

gogosox16
03-25-2008, 07:27 PM
I'd feel a hell of a lot better if we had a legit leadoff hitter and another starter.
Yep, and no Juan Uribe at 2nd base

Daver
03-25-2008, 07:28 PM
This team will struggle to finish out of last place.

TomBradley72
03-25-2008, 07:30 PM
If we can stay 100% healthy all season...I think we truly have a chance (combined with some of the weaknesses I see with Det and Cle).

If we have any significant injuries (ie. AJ goes down...so Lucy is our every day catcher, a starter goes down so Broadway is in the rotation, a reliever goes down so Russell has to be called up, an OF goes down, so 6th year minor leaguer Bourguoise is called up) we're screwed. There is a cliff like drop off between the major league roster and AA/AAA (other than Fields). We have nothing that can help us in the minors. Nothing.

gogosox16
03-25-2008, 07:30 PM
This team will struggle to finish out of last place.
Really?!?!

I have a lot of hope that this team can sneak up on people and possibly pull out 2nd and possibly a wildcard birth.

Brian26
03-25-2008, 07:31 PM
This team will struggle to finish out of last place.

Is that based mostly on the starting pitching?

kaufsox
03-25-2008, 07:40 PM
This team will struggle to finish out of last place.

I think the gap between 1st and 3rd will be large and the gap between 3rd and 5th will be tight. Having said that, I voted "yes, go go sox" because I'm a miserable judge of team building. I was not expecting much from the 2005 bunch, a 2nd place finish at best. whoops. I LOVED the 2006 squad and 90 wins was great, but tastes like ash when there is no postseason baseball to go along with it. I also liked the 2007 team and we all know how that turned out. So, I'm not thrilled about this team, but let's see them play.

Daver
03-25-2008, 07:44 PM
Is that based mostly on the starting pitching?

It's based on pitching overall, and defense, which is not strong where it needs to be.

chisoxmike
03-25-2008, 07:46 PM
I voted no, but there shouldn't be a "blow up" by any means. But I have no high expectations for this team. I actually feel worse about their chances than I did when camp opened.

fquaye149
03-25-2008, 07:48 PM
This team will struggle to finish out of last place.

Lucky for us the Royals and the Twins are generally as lousy as we are

Jjav829
03-25-2008, 08:00 PM
I'm not exactly thrilled about the current team, but it's not "blow it up" bad yet.

There are simply too many question marks to feel very good about this team. That said, I do feel a little better about the Sox chances than I did a few weeks ago.

QCIASOXFAN
03-25-2008, 08:01 PM
3rd place seems just about right.

Brian26
03-25-2008, 08:02 PM
It's based on pitching overall, and defense, which is not strong where it needs to be.

The team, as constructed now for Opening Day, has better defense than the '05 club. That's assuming Crede plays 3b and Anderson plays CF.

Frater Perdurabo
03-25-2008, 08:02 PM
It's based on pitching overall, and defense, which is not strong where it needs to be.

You really think the defense is that bad at the important defensive positions?

We all know that A.J. isn't a great receiver and that Hall can't throw out Paul Konerko trying to steal, but it seems to me that Crede, Anderson (with Owens on the DL) and Cabrera are above average for 3B, CF and SS, and Uribe ought to be pretty good at 2B, Paulie is pretty good defensively at first, and Dye still has a good arm in RF. But you're the more astute observer, so I really want to know where you think the Sox defense is lacking.

Jjav829
03-25-2008, 08:07 PM
You really think the defense is that bad at the important defensive positions?

We all know that A.J. isn't a great receiver and that Hall can't throw out Paul Konerko trying to steal, but it seems to me that Crede, Anderson (with Owens on the DL) and Cabrera are above average for 3B, CF and SS, and Uribe ought to be pretty good at 2B, Paulie is pretty good defensively at first, and Dye still has a good arm in RF. But you're the more astute observer, so I really want to know where you think the Sox defense is lacking.

If the Sox field a lineup defensively of...
Swisher-Anderson-Dye
Crede-Cabrera-Uribe-Konerko
Pierzynski

..they will be fine defensively. The only player in that group who isn't above average is Pierzynski.

The problem with that lineup would whether they would score enough runs with Uribe and Anderson getting 450+ ABs.

A. Cavatica
03-25-2008, 08:10 PM
I voted no; I'm not ready to blow up the team, because we have no help coming from the minors, but there are a lot of players who appear to have made the opening day roster who should not be on it. Some are immovable because of salary, some are immovable because they suck, and many are immovable because of both.

Blow up these six players, and the manager, and maybe I'll change my tune.

- Uribe
- Crede
- Hall
- MacDougal
- Floyd
- Contreras

Daver
03-25-2008, 08:12 PM
The team, as constructed now for Opening Day, has better defense than the '05 club. That's assuming Crede plays 3b and Anderson plays CF.

Crede will play third, Fields was reassigned to minor league camp.

Dye doesn't have the range he had 2 years ago, and it wasn't spectacular then, you have a SS playing out of position at 2nd, a platoon in CF, and Pablo Ozuna playing left when Konerko has a day off.

I really don't want to talk about pitching, it depresses me.

areilly
03-25-2008, 08:18 PM
Certainly a probability, but at least there is some hope for the future. That's as exciting as anything is that even if things don't break right for the Sox this year, next year they are going to be much improved with a lot less questions entering Spring Training and money will start to loosen up too either next year or the year after.

Agreed. 2009-2012 could be a great period of Soxdom (and that's not meant to be an automatic write-off of 2008).

Frater Perdurabo
03-25-2008, 08:19 PM
If the Sox field a lineup defensively of...
Swisher-Anderson-Dye
Crede-Cabrera-Uribe-Konerko
Pierzynski

..they will be fine defensively. The only player in that group who isn't above average is Pierzynski.

The problem with that lineup would whether they would score enough runs with Uribe and Anderson getting 450+ ABs.

I think I agree with you on this, but I'm more optimistic about the offense.

Why? It's the 2006 lineup, with Swisher replacing Pods and Cabrera replacing Iguchi. Remember that Pods wasn't very productive in 2006, and Uribe and BA sucked, but the 2-7 spots were very productive. So, put Swisher and his incredible OBP at leadoff, and he will provide decent "protection" for Anderson in the 9-hole, who himself ought to be improved with a better attitude (hopefully) and more experience. Swisher won't have the steals, but he still can go from first to third on a single to RF or score from first on a double. Then Thome, PK and Dye are getting more ABs with RISP. Upon more thought, I really like a lineup of Swisher, Cabrera, Thome, PK, JD, AJ, Crede, Uribe and BA!

I'm still concerned about the rotation, though.

Brian26
03-25-2008, 08:21 PM
you have a SS playing out of position at 2nd

That shouldn't be a problem though. Uribe handled 2nd just fine in 2004, and it's certainly a less traumatic change than trying to move a second baseman over to shortstop. I actually have a feeling Uribe might have a hell of a year at 2nd.

I really don't want to talk about pitching, it depresses me.

I agree.

Chicken Dinner
03-25-2008, 08:22 PM
Defense starts on the mound, and that's where the problems are.

TornLabrum
03-25-2008, 08:40 PM
Pitching: Questionable at best
Defense: A mixed back but not very strong up the middle from what I'm seeing.
Offense: Not very balanced. Without a really good leadoff hitter, I see us sitting around waiting for the long ball yet again.

Prognosis: 4th or 5th place.

I hope they prove me wrong. In fact I'm begging them to prove me wrong.

HBaines03
03-25-2008, 08:42 PM
Personally I think the organization has held onto a couple of players to long out of respect for the 2005 season. Uribe, Crede and Dye should not be here any longer. They are not performing for many reasons. Dye might be the only one we could make a trade with but it most likely would not get us much in return. If these guys don't perform within the 1st month we need to cut ties quickly any way we can if we hope to contend for anything at all. We have at least 3 young and capable guys who can play in Fields, Richar (after DL stint) and Quentin. Orlando Cabrera resigning with us will be determined by the team record. Owens looks like he will be an exact clone of Podsednik and I think he will be in and out all year with this injury. I am not concerned with the 1-3 starters but hope Danks & Floyd can perform around .500. Bullpen is a black art. One year a guy looks unhittable and the next he is released. The first month will tell us alot.

Milkman43
03-25-2008, 08:46 PM
Whatever it is, lets just be thankful that baseball is finally here.

peeonwrigley
03-25-2008, 08:46 PM
If the Sox field a lineup defensively of...
Swisher-Anderson-Dye
Crede-Cabrera-Uribe-Konerko
Pierzynski

..they will be fine defensively. The only player in that group who isn't above average is Pierzynski.

The problem with that lineup would whether they would score enough runs with Uribe and Anderson getting 450+ ABs.

I don't worry about runs with that offense.

Swisher/Cabrera at 1-2, the usual suspects in the middle, Crede, Uribe, BA at the ass end would be good enough for the MLB average in runs IMO.

And that's our strongest defense as far as I can tell. Its also how I would roll if I were manager.

Problem is there will probably be a lot of Owens, Pablo, and Ramirez so we won't often get this defensive line up.

And, I worry greatly about the two youngins, Contreras, and bullpen pitchers not name Bobby Jenks.

Elephant
03-25-2008, 08:49 PM
If the Sox field a lineup defensively of...
Swisher-Anderson-Dye
Crede-Cabrera-Uribe-Konerko
Pierzynski

..they will be fine defensively. The only player in that group who isn't above average is Pierzynski.

The problem with that lineup would whether they would score enough runs with Uribe and Anderson getting 450+ ABs.

Dye is average at best at this point.

Other than that, it's a good fielding team. The outfield particularly is as good as it's been in years with those three.

The team doesn't need a leadoff man to steal bases in order to be productive. 2005 was all about the long ball. Great pitching makes a team seem clutch. You have more close games, more chances to manufacture 1 run, and you have confidence that the 1 run will hold up, therefore you play for it more.

Basically, pitching is everything. The 05 team was not good offensively--at all. Let's not model any future teams after them.

fquaye149
03-25-2008, 08:53 PM
only if Anderson plays. If Owens plays when healthy it's....ho hum

Jerko
03-25-2008, 09:07 PM
I don't think any of this matters because we might see 150 different lineups anyway. We're all going to sit through many games watching people we don't think belong on the team.

oeo
03-25-2008, 09:18 PM
Dye is average at best at this point.

I agree. I'd say he's below average and getting to the point of awful. He just can't move well out there anymore.

ChiTownTrojan
03-25-2008, 09:24 PM
Crede will play third, Fields was reassigned to minor league camp.

Dye doesn't have the range he had 2 years ago, and it wasn't spectacular then, you have a SS playing out of position at 2nd, a platoon in CF, and Pablo Ozuna playing left when Konerko has a day off.

I really don't want to talk about pitching, it depresses me.
I don't see how anyone can complain about the defense. Both the infield (Crede-Cabrera-Uribe-Konerko) and the outfield (Swisher-Anderson-Dye) are as good if not better than any defense we've had around here in a while. The only players that aren't well-above-average for their positions are Dye and A.J. The "platoon" in CF that you mention looks to be Anderson and Ramirez, one guy who's very good and another guy who's still learning the position but is athletic enough that I think he'll be fine. And there's no way that Ozuna is going to LF at all this year, there are two outfielders on the bench (Ramirez and Quentin, and later Owens) ahead of him.

The offense has the potential to put up a lot of runs, just like 2006. It's not going to depend on what guys like Anderson and Uribe are doing. It's going to be whether the guys in the middle (Konerko, Thome, Dye) can bounce back from last year's sub-par seasons. None of us know yet if that will happen, but I'm optimistic. I also really like our bench. Ozuna will be able to serve as a good leadoff hitter against lefties, Quentin will give some pop off the bench, and Ramirez is versatile, and a potential star. Owens eventually will provide speed.

The only thing I'm nervous about is the rotation, it's got a lot of question marks. Like Ozzie said, Contreras is the X-factor, if he can bounce back then we will contend.

sullythered
03-25-2008, 09:40 PM
Which of the last several WS champs was constituted primarily of "home grown hungry young ballplayers?" I guess the Cardinals, maybe, and they were the worst world series champ of my lifetime.

Daver
03-25-2008, 09:44 PM
I don't see how anyone can complain about the defense. Both the infield (Crede-Cabrera-Uribe-Konerko) and the outfield (Swisher-Anderson-Dye) are as good if not better than any defense we've had around here in a while. The only players that aren't well-above-average for their positions are Dye and A.J. The "platoon" in CF that you mention looks to be Anderson and Ramirez, one guy who's very good and another guy who's still learning the position but is athletic enough that I think he'll be fine. And there's no way that Ozuna is going to LF at all this year, there are two outfielders on the bench (Ramirez and Quentin, and later Owens) ahead of him.

The offense has the potential to put up a lot of runs, just like 2006. It's not going to depend on what guys like Anderson and Uribe are doing. It's going to be whether the guys in the middle (Konerko, Thome, Dye) can bounce back from last year's sub-par seasons. None of us know yet if that will happen, but I'm optimistic. I also really like our bench. Ozuna will be able to serve as a good leadoff hitter against lefties, Quentin will give some pop off the bench, and Ramirez is versatile, and a potential star. Owens eventually will provide speed.

The only thing I'm nervous about is the rotation, it's got a lot of question marks. Like Ozzie said, Contreras is the X-factor, if he can bounce back then we will contend.

You won't see a regular line up, Ozzie refuses to do that.

You have one pitcher that can keep a runner on first, and no one on the roster that can throw them out when they decide to take second, this team is gonna get run on like crazy, and every baserunner is taking an extra base on a ball to right, or center with Owens out there.

ChiTownTrojan
03-25-2008, 09:47 PM
You won't see a regular line up, Ozzie refuses to do that.

You have one pitcher that can keep a runner on first, and no one on the roster that can throw them out when they decide to take second, this team is gonna get run on like crazy, and every baserunner is taking an extra base on a ball to right, or center with Owens out there.
You can question Dye's range, but his arm is still above average. You're right about the ability to prevent steals though. I would have liked to see Phillips make this team, Hall doesn't seem right, no matter what he's saying publicly.

JB98
03-25-2008, 09:53 PM
I didn't vote in the poll. I'm not excited about the team, but I don't think we should blow it up either.

If we blow it up, who do we have to play? The calvary isn't coming from Charlotte. The handful of decent young players we have are already on the big-league club.

I sure hope we hit this year. If we don't hit, it's going to be a long season. I just can't see this pitching staff carrying us. We have only two starting pitchers who can be relied upon to give us innings. That means a lot of innings will have to be thrown by middle relievers (shudder).

Dabchsx28
03-25-2008, 10:08 PM
If you want to call me a chicken little fine. If you want bash my opinion then that's fine too. But, here's my totally unbiased opinion and that IS essentially what this site is all about.

This team has more questions than answers. I really don't like how it's constructed. There is way more questions than answers when it comes to the 2008 version of the Chicago White Sox.

We have no true leadoff hitter or 2B, The pitching staff has WAY too many questions right now for my liking and it seems like KW is sending guys out there because of how high their salaries are rather than playing the guys who really deserve it.

That isn't exactly how I want to go into battle in one of the toughest (if not the toughest) divisions in baseball.

I've been watching baseball for a long while now and I have a bad feeling going into this season. (I seriously hope I'm wrong) But, I hope someone gives KW a reason to blow this thing up, start trading guys and get some new (and younger) talent in here in a hurry.

Let's build this team they way the Cleveland Indians have: By using good home grown, hungry, young ballplayers. NOT the way we're currently constructed.

I believe this is why they need Brian Roberts it would solve many of our problems to compete in our division. It would give us 1 of the best lineups in baseball. Clevland and Detroit are good but they don't have world beater starting rotaions either. With Zumya and Rodney out Detroit doens't have that solid of a bullpen either, also Detroit has Jones as their closer and the Indians have Borowski

guillen4life13
03-25-2008, 10:11 PM
Agree with a lot of the sentiments posted. This team is not going to be a force in 2008, but will really be the litmus for 2009. Deal from an area of strength (power hitters) to fill areas of possible weakness (if Owens is a bust, get a leadoff hitter, and if the pitching is a bust, get some pitchers).

I've said it before--the lineup we trot out in 2009, if things seem to go the right (or wrong) way, may be:

LF Owens
SS Ramirez
1B Swisher
DH Konerko
3B Fields
RF Quentin
C Pierzynski
CF Anderson
2B Richar

If the players are deserving MLB starters, then I'd be all for that. Awesome defense (I'd only really worry about Owens and Pierzynski), and if these guys play up to their talent and strengths, it's a very well rounded lineup. Your bench is Ozuna, Bourgeois, Phillips, 2 decent fielding OF's. Use Dye to shore up relief pitching a little further and get rid of Thome to spend that money on starting pitching in case Danks/Floyd don't turn out too nice. I've given up on getting a lot in return for Crede or Uribe.

In 2008, if all goes right, the Sox could surprise a lot of people.

Rarely does all go right. This team is not built for the scenarios when all doesn't go right. IMHO

Cuck the Fubs
03-25-2008, 10:33 PM
This team will struggle to finish out of last place.

That's a little harsh man.....:?:

By the way, your brake light is out on one side in the sig pic :redneck

thomas35forever
03-25-2008, 10:53 PM
If they blew the team up, we wouldn't be competing for at least three years. The Sox are currently in "win now" mode and they want to make one more run with the guys from '05 before that team almost entirely becomes a thing of the past.

Tragg
03-25-2008, 10:58 PM
The offense has the potential to put up a lot of runs, just like 2006. It's not going to depend on what guys like Anderson and Uribe are doing. It's going to be whether the guys in the middle (Konerko, Thome, Dye) can bounce back from last year's sub-par seasons. .
Somebody's got to get on base for those 3 plus Swisher to create a lot of runs. 2007 is the comparison, as Ozzie's loaded the team up, yet again, with swing at everything low obp types (including a leadoff hitter who's lousy at getting on base). The advantage gained from having a decent hitting SS like Cabrera was completely offset with Uribe 2b (and we lost Garland in the process). It should be better because of Swisher and perhaps marginal gains elsewhere....but perhaps not.
On paper, this is the worst team Williams has put out there, imo. If the young talent were starting, it would be at least as good, could be real good and would be a lot more interesting (Fields, Quinten, Anderson, Richar). None of them will start and likely only 1 is even on the major league club. I don't think you have to blow the team up, but for goodness sakes, use the talent.

PalehosePlanet
03-25-2008, 11:01 PM
If we had one more solid starter I'd feel alot better about the way the team is constructed.

My other worry, as others have mentioned, is that we won't always have the best team out on the field.

FedEx227
03-25-2008, 11:05 PM
If they blew the team up, we wouldn't be competing for at least three years. The Sox are currently in "win now" mode and they want to make one more run with the guys from '05 before that team almost entirely becomes a thing of the past.

Aka 2007?

we be jake
03-26-2008, 12:15 AM
I don't see how we will ever win again as long as they keep trading our future for has-been power hitters.

Mohoney
03-26-2008, 12:39 AM
It's based on pitching overall, and defense, which is not strong where it needs to be.

So you do see an improved offense, though?

I think that alone is about 10 more wins, and as bad as we were last year, we still had a winning record against this division and only lost 90 games. I know it seems stupid to say that we only lost 90, but we were dead last in the AL in scoring runs. I'm thinking that we should have probably lost more games than we did after not even being able to crack 700 runs scored.

I'm thinking they will be right around .500 with Cabrera and Swisher added to the lineup and better seasons at the plate from Dye, AJ, and Konerko. I think that the run production will be better than both the Twins and Royals, and although I think that the run prevention will be eclipsed by Minnesota, I don't think it will be to the degree that keeps them way ahead of us for 3rd place. I think we'll be pretty close to them all year long.

Then again, I think the Royals are a lock for at least 95 losses. Maybe you don't.

WhiteSox5187
03-26-2008, 03:01 AM
I believe this is why they need Brian Roberts it would solve many of our problems to compete in our division. It would give us 1 of the best lineups in baseball. Clevland and Detroit are good but they don't have world beater starting rotaions either. With Zumya and Rodney out Detroit doens't have that solid of a bullpen either, also Detroit has Jones as their closer and the Indians have Borowski
I would loooove to have Brian Roberts on this team, but it just isn't going to happen. I don't see how we could make it happen unless McPhail TRULY believes in this 5-1 deal crap and is willing to take five of our mediocre at best prospects and hope one of them pans out. IF we could land Roberts however, I think all of a sudden we might be able to make a run at Detroit and Cleveland. I think as of right now we'll give them headaches but we'll be perfectly mediocre like in '04.

santo=dorf
03-26-2008, 04:42 AM
Where are the polyannas to come in to try and blow away the negative nancys and PPDC's? Scared of Daver's elephant gun?

I don't think it looks too good for the Sox this year, but I don't think last place should have our name reserved for it.

oeo
03-26-2008, 06:43 AM
You can question Dye's range, but his arm is still above average.

This somehow makes him a good defender?

I hate this argument. I'll take range over an arm any day of the week. What's the arm matter when you can't get to the ball.

Same goes for Owens in center vs. Swisher.

Carolina Kenny
03-26-2008, 07:34 AM
I didn't vote in the poll. I'm not excited about the team, but I don't think we should blow it up either.

If we blow it up, who do we have to play? The calvary isn't coming from Charlotte. The handful of decent young players we have are already on the big-league club.

I sure hope we hit this year. If we don't hit, it's going to be a long season. I just can't see this pitching staff carrying us. We have only two starting pitchers who can be relied upon to give us innings. That means a lot of innings will have to be thrown by middle relievers (shudder).

Having read thru the various responses, the quote above comes closest to what I believe. Although we welcome the start of the season, (and the end to this brutal Chicago winter), I can't get super excited about this team. Certainly there will be plenty of questions to be answered, and it will be interesting to see how they play out. If the offense hits like last year it will be a looong year. The pitching just can't carry this team and our defense will depend on what combination of players Ozzie puts out there. (at least we won't see Pablo in the outfield, Mack in CF and Andy Gonzolez at third)

Although management maintains that they are "going for it", I still see 2008 as being a transitional year with considerable player movement this year.

Later on in the season this could be the year of the "big blowup" if the Sox play like they did last year. This could include both regular position players, starters, relief pitchers and the coaching staff.

TornLabrum
03-26-2008, 07:49 AM
Where are the polyannas to come in to try and blow away the negative nancys and PPDC's? Scared of Daver's elephant gun?

I don't think it looks too good for the Sox this year, but I don't think last place should have our name reserved for it.

I agree. I see us finishing fourth again. :rolleyes:

aryzner
03-26-2008, 08:06 AM
Oh I'm worried as hell. Mostly about pitching and a legit leadoff guy.

But here's to hoping for a few nice surprises this season! :gulp:

ChiTownTrojan
03-26-2008, 08:21 AM
Where are the polyannas to come in to try and blow away the negative nancys and PPDC's? Scared of Daver's elephant gun?

I don't think it looks too good for the Sox this year, but I don't think last place should have our name reserved for it.
I suppose I'm one of those polyannas compared to the posts I'm reading on this board, although I prefer to think of myslef as a realist. I'm just not willing to criticize this team before they show me a reason to criticize it. People are saying we're finishing in 4th or 5th place, I don't see it. Top to bottom we've got a better lineup than Minnesota or K.C., and for as many question marks as there are in our rotation, there are more in those two teams. I think the Twins are likely to drop way out this year, there rotation is in shambles.

The Sox on the other hand have a solid offense, a very strong defense, and a rotation with three question marks in Contreras, Danks, and Floyd. If two of those question marks pitch well (meaning average by MLB standards), we've got enough to contend with Detroit and Cleveland. Those teams aren't without their problems too.

ChiTownTrojan
03-26-2008, 08:31 AM
I don't see how we will ever win again as long as they keep trading our future for has-been power hitters.
I can't imagine who you are exactly referring to as a "has-been power hitter". The last time that happened was with the Thome trade 2 years ago.

ChiTownTrojan
03-26-2008, 08:42 AM
Somebody's got to get on base for those 3 plus Swisher to create a lot of runs. 2007 is the comparison, as Ozzie's loaded the team up, yet again, with swing at everything low obp types (including a leadoff hitter who's lousy at getting on base). The advantage gained from having a decent hitting SS like Cabrera was completely offset with Uribe 2b (and we lost Garland in the process). It should be better because of Swisher and perhaps marginal gains elsewhere....but perhaps not.
On paper, this is the worst team Williams has put out there, imo. If the young talent were starting, it would be at least as good, could be real good and would be a lot more interesting (Fields, Quinten, Anderson, Richar). None of them will start and likely only 1 is even on the major league club. I don't think you have to blow the team up, but for goodness sakes, use the talent.
Everyone's freaking out about the top of the lineup, I think we're fine. Swisher (vs. righties) and Ozuna (vs. lefties) can both get on base, and Cabrera is almost the ideal #2 hitter. Once Owens is healthy, if the other guys aren't working out he can be that "prototypical" leadoff guy that so many of you seem to want, though I'm not sure we'll need him.

Most people seem not to like Swisher there because he doesn't steal bases. It would be nice if our leadoff guy could steal a few, but I think it's far more important that he gets on base to begin with. The guy had something like a .450 OBP last season, in a pitcher's park nonetheless. If we can get the leadoff guy on base nearly half the time to start out a game, what more can you ask? And with a very good #2 in Cabrera, he'll very likely be in scoring position for Thome or whoever is in the 3 hole. People also say that Swisher's power would be wasted in the leadoff spot. Well, I for one wouldn't complain if we started out a game with a 1-0 lead, giving us momentum for the next 9 innings.

russ99
03-26-2008, 08:45 AM
Guys, it's a long season and unlike last year, Kenny has some trading chips to improve a spot or two if needed during the season.

I'm encouraged about a lot of things:

If we see the Crede of old, the offense is drastically improved with the additions of Cabrera and Swisher - and a swing closer to their norm by Dye and Konerko. We have speed in Owens and Cabrera and OBP with Cabrera and Swisher.

The infield defense is solid with Crede at 3B, gold-glover Cabrera at SS, Uribe/Ramirez at 2B (I have no concerns with Juan at 2B, he's played a full season there before) and Paul at 1B.

Outfield defense is a bit sketchier, but Swisher, Dye and pick one of Quentin, Owens and Anderson is tons better than we had last year.

Linebrink's (and Dotel's) value will be obvious 2 months into the season.

As for starters, Contreras looks pretty good this spring, and Danks/Floyd is a much better option than some of the guys signed for $8-10M in the offseason.

I have a lot more hope for this team now that I did in September.

NoNeckEra
03-26-2008, 10:43 AM
My $0.02:
As dreadful as our offense was last year, this was a .500 team if the bullpen was just AVERAGE.

So, as usual, it comes down to pitching. Best case scenario is Mark & Javy are outstanding(and I think they can be), 3-4-5 starters hold their own, bullpen excels, offense is league average and you wind up with 90 wins.

But if 3-4-5 is a disaster(and it could be), and the bullpen sucks again, we could be in for a repeat.

kobo
03-26-2008, 11:22 AM
I agree. I'd say he's below average and getting to the point of awful. He just can't move well out there anymore.
Good thing Kenny gave him that extension last summer!

ArkanSox
03-26-2008, 11:25 AM
I like the way this team is put together. We have a lot of tested vets and some younger guys with unproven, but great potential. We have a little bit of insurance on the bench and in Triple A. The offense and the bullpen should be able to keep us in games if Danks and Floyd can at least maintain for 5 innings per start. Contreras, as he demonstrated in 2005, can be a staff ace if he keeps his head on straight. The defense should be well above average--I'm thinking Anderson in center and Uribe at second. If a couple of guys (take your pick--PK, Dye, Thome, Crede, Swisher) have career years, they may just take us all the way to the promised land.

sincerely,

Polyanna Arkansox

#1swisher
03-26-2008, 11:28 AM
:gulp: my glass is always full.
I believe. Go Sox:D:

Hitmen77
03-26-2008, 11:44 AM
Interesting that the poll shows the people positive about the Sox way ahead 75%-25%, but a vast majority of the posts here have been negative.

I suppose I'm one of those polyannas compared to the posts I'm reading on this board, although I prefer to think of myslef as a realist. I'm just not willing to criticize this team before they show me a reason to criticize it. People are saying we're finishing in 4th or 5th place, I don't see it. Top to bottom we've got a better lineup than Minnesota or K.C., and for as many question marks as there are in our rotation, there are more in those two teams. I think the Twins are likely to drop way out this year, there rotation is in shambles.

The Sox on the other hand have a solid offense, a very strong defense, and a rotation with three question marks in Contreras, Danks, and Floyd. If two of those question marks pitch well (meaning average by MLB standards), we've got enough to contend with Detroit and Cleveland. Those teams aren't without their problems too.

I agree. I'm not drinking the koolaid that KW is serving either, but I'm still cautiously optimistic. I think this team should be significantly better than last year. I know that's not saying much, but some people here make it sound like we're no better than last year.

At this point, there are just too many question marks on this team for me to say I'm counting on anything higher than a 3rd place finish this year in this tough division. BUT, just about everyone on the roster has pretty decent upside potential. Let's just see how it plays out starting on Monday.

pdimas
03-26-2008, 12:19 PM
I don't see how anyone can complain about the defense. Both the infield (Crede-Cabrera-Uribe-Konerko) and the outfield (Swisher-Anderson-Dye) are as good if not better than any defense we've had around here in a while. The only players that aren't well-above-average for their positions are Dye and A.J. The "platoon" in CF that you mention looks to be Anderson and Ramirez, one guy who's very good and another guy who's still learning the position but is athletic enough that I think he'll be fine. And there's no way that Ozuna is going to LF at all this year, there are two outfielders on the bench (Ramirez and Quentin, and later Owens) ahead of him.

The offense has the potential to put up a lot of runs, just like 2006. It's not going to depend on what guys like Anderson and Uribe are doing. It's going to be whether the guys in the middle (Konerko, Thome, Dye) can bounce back from last year's sub-par seasons. None of us know yet if that will happen, but I'm optimistic. I also really like our bench. Ozuna will be able to serve as a good leadoff hitter against lefties, Quentin will give some pop off the bench, and Ramirez is versatile, and a potential star. Owens eventually will provide speed.

The only thing I'm nervous about is the rotation, it's got a lot of question marks. Like Ozzie said, Contreras is the X-factor, if he can bounce back then we will contend.


I couldn't express it any better.

The only other thing that concerns me a bit although to a slightly lesser extent than the rotation is the bullpen. Hopefully Dotel and Linebrink work out and MacDougal bounces back. I like Wasserman a lot and think he will work out better in the long run than Masset. I think he could handle more innings if given the chance rather than just being a specialist.

VegasSoxFan
03-26-2008, 06:53 PM
Long time reader of these forums - I finally decided to join.

I too like the way this team is put together. It is not perfect, but the team will compete. Maybe I am too optimistic, but I think this team is a year away from really being a force. The young players - Quentin (I think he will realize his potential here), Anderson, Fields, Richar, Owens, and Ramirez will get a year to develop. They will mix well with the vets. THe next offseason will give KW a chance to get the missing pieces (starting pitching, leadoff, etc.).

For all the bad mouthing of our farm system (and it is bad), we do have some yound players that can be good. THe players mentioned above, along with Swisher (I categorize him as young - plus good contract!), Danks, Floyd, and in the future Poreda. Not too bad.

JNS
03-26-2008, 07:12 PM
Where are the polyannas to come in to try and blow away the negative nancys and PPDC's? Scared of Daver's elephant gun?

I don't think it looks too good for the Sox this year, but I don't think last place should have our name reserved for it.


Well, the roaster has that thrown-together feel. Not a well-constructed team. Several redundancies and several glaring weaknesses.

I'm not quite as pissed off at KW as I was earlier this pre-season, but that said, he certainly isn't acting as if he had any plans A, B C or whatever. The latest issue is the sending down of Fields. Once again, we have redundancy at a position, needs elsewhere, and management doesn't seem able to put a decent deal together. Many of the pundits are saying that is fine - that the Sox can deal Crede later once other teams needs become more acute, but hey, I'd like to see a real 2nd baseman, another starter, another leadoff guy - it's unclear what Owens will be able to do once he gets off the DL - the team has plenty of needs, yet a guy who can play with the big club and help it is down on the farm because once again KW can't find anyone to give him value for Crede. If a win or loss in April means as much as one in September, this is not a good sign.

I'm just using this as an example - it all still seems a mess to me.

Lip Man 1
03-26-2008, 07:18 PM
Vegas:

I'm sorry I just don't see Gavin Floyd in the "sound young players who can be good" category.

He had another "impressive" outing today for example.

Lip

VegasSoxFan
03-26-2008, 07:21 PM
Lip:

It is kind of wishful thinking about Floyd. Ultimately he probably will be a bust. What about the other young guys? I know there are a lot of question marks with them (as there are with all young players), but some HAVE to pan out don't they :scratch:

I still think the Sox are a year away from being really good.

sullythered
03-26-2008, 07:27 PM
I love how Lip inspires the "Lip:" responses...

Anyway, this team is very likely going to be better by default than last year. We had the worst bullpen I've ever seen last season. There is virtually no chance that this one will be as bad. Our hitters basically all had career worst years, and that is unlikely to repeat. We are younger and deeper than we were last year as well.

I also like the attitude infusion we seemingly have added in Swish and Cabrera.

kevingrt
03-26-2008, 08:02 PM
It's a new season and all but this make up of this ball club just does not excite me at all. A bunch of mediocre players playing all over the place it seems like to me. But I have been wrong plenty of times before. Many people thought before the '05 season that the Sox were just a bunch of mediocre Joe's and look what happened.

But yes I'd like this team blown up quick.

oeo
03-26-2008, 08:02 PM
Vegas:

I'm sorry I just don't see Gavin Floyd in the "sound young players who can be good" category.

He had another "impressive" outing today for example.

Lip

7 Ks, 0 BB is a good sign. :dunno:

We'll see how his stuff changes coming up North, and he may not get hit as hard.

I know Javy has a track record, but he just got lit up in his last start...are you worried about him? It's not like Floyd has been terrible every start. I'm optimistic knowing that he's throwing strikes.

It's a new season and all but this make up of this ball club just does not excite me at all. A bunch of mediocre players playing all over the place it seems like to me. But I have been wrong plenty of times before. Many people thought before the '05 season that the Sox were just a bunch of mediocre Joe's and look what happened.

But yes I'd like this team blown up quick.

Name them.

chisox77
03-26-2008, 08:09 PM
This is a valid discussion.

However, I do like the team as constructed. But the White Sox are not a finished product, especially for this upcoming season. There are still one or two possible deals, depending on when KW feels he can strike to get the most for the team.

The White Sox will surprise a lot of people this year.


:cool:

SCarolina_Ron
03-26-2008, 08:24 PM
Interesting that the poll shows the people positive about the Sox way ahead 75%-25%, but a vast majority of the posts here have been negative.



I agree. I'm not drinking the koolaid that KW is serving either, but I'm still cautiously optimistic. I think this team should be significantly better than last year. I know that's not saying much, but some people here make it sound like we're no better than last year.

At this point, there are just too many question marks on this team for me to say I'm counting on anything higher than a 3rd place finish this year in this tough division. BUT, just about everyone on the roster has pretty decent upside potential. Let's just see how it plays out starting on Monday.


Agree as well. Having been one for over 50 yrs, I think it's in the Sox fan DNA to start with lower expectations to temper the potential disappointment we've lived through (with rare exception). I have high hopes and but more of a wait & see attitude.

Noneck
03-26-2008, 08:33 PM
Interesting that the poll shows the people positive about the Sox way ahead 75%-25%, but a vast majority of the posts here have been negative.





I think the 75-25 is due to the fact that it is really hard to blow up the team and start over without a decent minor league system, alot of players on this team are without much trade value and an ownership that doesn't want to take a big attendance hit. So we sit back and hope for the best.

TomBradley72
03-26-2008, 08:41 PM
I'd have to say I'm more optimistic about 2008 than I am about 2009. Next year Dye, Thome, AJ, Konerko, Carbrera, Contreras and Buehrle will all be a year older and I'd expect their age to start to really show...that's 5/10 of our starting position players and 2/5 of our starting rotation and at least this year we had some minor league prospects to use as trade bait. Quentin and Ramirez may help...but we don't have anyone coming to replace/help out AJ or our starting pitching.

I doubt we'll really have any trade bait to enhance the team in the next off season...we'll have to primarily the free agent route to address the aging of the above players + another starter (assuming Floyd doesn't pan out). Based on everything I've read...it will be a few years before our minor league system will be of any real help to us.

digdagdug23
03-26-2008, 08:43 PM
This is a valid discussion.

However, I do like the team as constructed. But the White Sox are not a finished product, especially for this upcoming season. There are still one or two possible deals, depending on when KW feels he can strike to get the most for the team.

The White Sox will surprise a lot of people this year.


:cool:

The question isn't whether the team is well constructed, but rather whether or not we have a competent manager capable of placing players where they should be on the field.

Ramirez in CF is a crime, and moving Swisher over to cover CF when Owens is on DL rather than playing BA is beyond rediculous.

I am of the mind that you could have the entire AL All Star team on the field, and Ozzie would put them bass-ackwards.

Lip Man 1
03-26-2008, 09:06 PM
OEO:

I think you've been reading to much of the gang at Baseball Prospectus. They are the one's that basically say 'you can't win if you don't have a lot of strike out pitchers.'

Here's the only numbers that matter:

5 IP, 9 H, 6 ER

Sure he struck out seven guys, but when they hit the ball they sure hit it far didn't they? Of course he's throwing strikes...and they're hitting them. :D:

Kenny made the comment this past off season that "29 teams" would be interested in Gavin. Me thinks it's time he looked to see if that statement is true.

Lip

oeo
03-26-2008, 09:51 PM
OEO:

I think you've been reading to much of the gang at Baseball Prospectus. They are the one's that basically say 'you can't win if you don't have a lot of strike out pitchers.'

Here's the only numbers that matter:

5 IP, 9 H, 6 ER

Sure he struck out seven guys, but when they hit the ball they sure hit it far didn't they? Of course he's throwing strikes...and they're hitting them. :D:

Kenny made the comment this past off season that "29 teams" would be interested in Gavin. Me thinks it's time he looked to see if that statement is true.

Lip


Maybe I wasn't clear enough...

1. I was never talking about strikeouts. I was talking about the walks...of which he had zero today, and only 5 on the Spring.
2. He's in Arizona, where his stuff will not be as good because of the thin air. It's very possible that this is a big reason he's getting hit so hard. When he comes North, he may 'suddenly' be pitching well.

The same goes for Vazquez, who got lit up in his last start; and Dotel, who has been getting lit up all Spring Training and I know for a fact that you like.

Either all three of those guys are awful, or they can't put together a good Spring Training in Arizona. Not everyone is a Buehrle, who doesn't rely on stuff.

Tragg
03-26-2008, 09:57 PM
I doubt we'll really have any trade bait to enhance the team in the next off season...we'll have to primarily the free agent route to address the aging of the above players + another starter (assuming Floyd doesn't pan out). Based on everything I've read...it will be a few years before our minor league system will be of any real help to us.
We should take the draft choices for Cabrera.

oeo
03-26-2008, 10:04 PM
We should take the draft choices for Cabrera.

What is it with you and those draft choices?

Yes, I'm sure Kenny traded for Orlando Cabrera for the couple of guys who may or may not be with the team 3-4 years from now. :rolleyes:

Let's see the season play out, and how Alexei Ramirez develops before we just 'take the draft picks.'

Domeshot17
03-26-2008, 10:20 PM
I like our team, but Im still a little upset that we have a bunch of guys who were said to be in competition who got outplayed this spring who have jobs. Sometime's I really feel like Ozzie is his own worst enemy, and it is not always his mouth.

Domeshot17
03-26-2008, 10:23 PM
Maybe I wasn't clear enough...

1. I was never talking about strikeouts. I was talking about the walks...of which he had zero today, and only 5 on the Spring.
2. He's in Arizona, where his stuff will not be as good because of the thin air. It's very possible that this is a big reason he's getting hit so hard. When he comes North, he may 'suddenly' be pitching well.

The same goes for Vazquez, who got lit up in his last start; and Dotel, who has been getting lit up all Spring Training and I know for a fact that you like.

Either all three of those guys are awful, or they can't put together a good Spring Training in Arizona. Not everyone is a Buehrle, who doesn't rely on stuff.

I think thats a very good way to look at it. We don't have any superstar pitchers on this team who have plus stuff AND plus control. We have Buehrle who uses good stuff with great control, and guys like Vaz and Contreras who rely on their stuff because they do not have superior control. The control guys seem to do much better in spring every year than the stuff guys. If they get hit you worry. For the Stuff guys, what you really want to see is the velocity is there, the command is not completely out of whack and they are controlling the breaking stuff.

Lip Man 1
03-26-2008, 10:55 PM
We'll find out soon enough I guess.

Lip

TomBradley72
03-26-2008, 11:22 PM
We should take the draft choices for Cabrera.

What track record do the White Sox have that would make you optmistic about those draft choices helping this team any time in the near future?

Lip Man 1
03-27-2008, 12:20 AM
Excellent point...especially if they are represented by Boras.

Lip

A. Cavatica
03-27-2008, 01:43 AM
Kenny made the comment this past off season that "29 teams" would be interested in Gavin. Me thinks it's time he looked to see if that statement is true.

Let's see...there's the Bakersfield Blaze, Batavia Muckdogs, Beloit Snappers, Billings Mustangs...

russ99
03-27-2008, 01:25 PM
I'd have to say I'm more optimistic about 2008 than I am about 2009. Next year Dye, Thome, AJ, Konerko, Carbrera, Contreras and Buehrle will all be a year older and I'd expect their age to start to really show...

While I'm not trying to derail this thread, I doubt Thome's back with the the Sox next year. Deciding between $13M vs. a $3M buyout is a no brainer. Dye (or Paulie) can move into the DH role, and Kenny can use the leftover salary to shore up an outfield (or the 2B) spot.

Jim would need 564 plate appearances this season to lock the option for next year, which could happen. Also I'm not sure if the Phillies would be paying for part ($5.5M) of his potential 2009 salary as they are this season.

SI1020
03-29-2008, 12:02 PM
Pitching: Questionable at best
Defense: A mixed back but not very strong up the middle from what I'm seeing.
Offense: Not very balanced. Without a really good leadoff hitter, I see us sitting around waiting for the long ball yet again.

Prognosis: 4th or 5th place.

I hope they prove me wrong. In fact I'm begging them to prove me wrong. Ditto here, especially the last sentence.