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BuehrleACE56
04-25-2002, 10:16 PM
Is the Pittsburgh Pirate's Josh Fogg for real? As their 5th starter he is 3-0 as of Thursday night's win and appears to have been pitching very well according to the stats. Does anyone know any more about this? I mean he hardly got a chance last year to pitch much for us and then he was one of three pitchers given up for "veteran" Todd Ritchie. I hope we didn't let a real talent slip through our fingers like that. Anybody know more?

doublem23
04-25-2002, 10:20 PM
Ritchie's been pretty good, and he's only what? 30? So, he's still got a few years ahead of him.

My bigger concern is Kip. I know he's not liked around here, but damn, he was only in the bigs for 2 years, and he's still in his early-mid-20s.... I still think he's going to develop into a pretty good pitcher, probably as good as Garland.

bjmarte
04-25-2002, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Ritchie's been pretty good, and he's only what? 30? So, he's still got a few years ahead of him.

My bigger concern is Kip. I know he's not liked around here, but damn, he was only in the bigs for 2 years, and he's still in his early-mid-20s.... I still think he's going to develop into a pretty good pitcher, probably as good as Garland.

There isn't a cork big enough.

doublem23
04-25-2002, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by bjmarte


There isn't a cork big enough.

I dunno.. Only time will tell, but when he was on, he was nearly unhittable... I still think the Sox gave up on Kip one year too early.

bjmarte
04-25-2002, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by doublem23


I dunno.. Only time will tell, but when he was on, he was nearly unhittable... I still think the Sox gave up on Kip one year too early.

I could be wrong, maybe he will grow some cajones. Either way I'm glad we have Ritchie now.

VeeckAsInWreck
04-26-2002, 12:02 AM
Josh Fogg has been good for the Pittsburg White Sox :D: but who knows how he could have done here! Kip has been OK but I still prefer Ritchie! It's not like Todd is 40 years old! He still has some years left in his arm! But I guess the grass is always greener on the other bong....er, I mean side!

BuehrleACE56
04-26-2002, 08:32 AM
I agree with bjmarte. I am glad we have Todd Ritchie. His first starts were good and he was unlucky to pick up that loss. But against Cleavland in game 2 on Tuesday night he was dominating. He owned the whole Indians lineup and racked up some more big striKeout numbers. He's going to be a good one if he keeps pitching well. And he's only 30.

34 Inch Stick
04-26-2002, 10:26 AM
We overpaid. I don't think there is a question about that. 3 pitchers on the major league roster for 1 is overpaying (except in a very few circumstances).

However, we needed a reliable veteran now. This season might have been a disaster without a Ritchie-like pitcher as our #2 starter.

The reason to get angry at KW for the trade is not because we overpayed. Supply and demand produce inflated markets some times. I get angry at KW because we were far beyond the market in our compensation. It would be like telling McDonald's you'll give them $5 for a hamburger when they are selling it for $3.

FarmerAndy
04-26-2002, 11:50 AM
I think we need to look at the Nardi factor. This guy just seems to ruin young pitchers. Josh Fogg is a good young pitcher, but he wasn't with the Sox long enough for Nardi to do much damage. If Fogg had stayed with the Sox, maybe he wouldn't be doing as good. Ritchie, on the other hand, is 30 years old and already developed.

I still wish we had Josh. I think that Wells and Lowe for Ritchie would have been a fair trade and Kenny over paid by throwing Fogg in the deal. However, we can't figure that Fogg would be 3-0 if he were still with the Sox. In fact, they probably wouldn't have even put him in the rotation. Along with the fact that if he stayed, Nardi would have gotten into his head..............

Anyway, my point is: FIRE NARDI !!!

voodoochile
04-26-2002, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
We overpaid. I don't think there is a question about that. 3 pitchers on the major league roster for 1 is overpaying (except in a very few circumstances).

However, we needed a reliable veteran now. This season might have been a disaster without a Ritchie-like pitcher as our #2 starter.

The reason to get angry at KW for the trade is not because we overpayed. Supply and demand produce inflated markets some times. I get angry at KW because we were far beyond the market in our compensation. It would be like telling McDonald's you'll give them $5 for a hamburger when they are selling it for $3.

Man I am tired of the "overpaid" routine. Would everyone have traded Kip and Josh straight up for Todd? Yes, in a hearbeat. Lowe was a throw in. The team assigned him almost no value because he wasn't going to be here this year, period.

Yeah, I know, I know, we could have used Lowe in another trade - that is providing we looked for one and managed to get it done before we lost Lowe entirely.

Now the flip side... If you are the Pirates GM, do you take Fogg and Kip for Ritchie straight up? If you say, "yes", can you please try to get a job as GM with a MLB team, so we can rob your team blind all day and night?

DrCrawdad
04-26-2002, 12:36 PM
The name is Cy Fogg.

Read it.
Know it.
Believe it.

BoozeSlut
04-26-2002, 07:21 PM
I am in total agreement with Voodoochile. Has anybody really looked at the traded pitchers individual stats this season? Let me put it in writing...

Kip Well's ERA and WHIP is worse this year for the Pirates than it was last year for us when everyone wanted him hung and quartered.

2001 ERA 4.79 WHIP 1.55
2002 ERA 5.79 WHIP 1.71

Sean Lowe's ERA and WHIP is incredibly worse this year for the Pirates than it was last year for us.

2001 ERA 3.61 WHIP 1.22
2002 ERA 6.00 WHIP 1.83

Only Fogg has looked good this year, but keep in mind 2 of his good games were against the hapless Flubbies. Not to mention he pitches in the NL and no one has ever seen his stuff before. Let's wait till the All-Star break and these teams see him a second time before anyone annoints him Cy Fogg.

In the meantime, focus on what we got in Ritchie, whose numbers are almost comparable to Burlymon's.

ERA 2.67 WHIP 0.98 :gulp:

Bmr31
04-26-2002, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by BoozeSlut
I am in total agreement with Voodoochile. Has anybody really looked at the traded pitchers individual stats this season? Let me put it in writing...

Kip Well's ERA and WHIP is worse this year for the Pirates than it was last year for us when everyone wanted him hung and quartered.

2001 ERA 4.79 WHIP 1.55
2002 ERA 5.79 WHIP 1.71

Sean Lowe's ERA and WHIP is incredibly worse this year for the Pirates than it was last year for us.

2001 ERA 3.61 WHIP 1.22
2002 ERA 6.00 WHIP 1.83

Only Fogg has looked good this year, but keep in mind 2 of his good games were against the hapless Flubbies. Not to mention he pitches in the NL and no one has ever seen his stuff before. Let's wait till the All-Star break and these teams see him a second time before anyone annoints him Cy Fogg.

In the meantime, focus on what we got in Ritchie, whose numbers are almost comparable to Burlymon's.

ERA 2.67 WHIP 0.98 :gulp:

uhh why are you quoting numbers after 3 or 4 weeks? Do you think they mean something or what?

BoozeSlut
04-26-2002, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


uhh why are you quoting numbers after 3 or 4 weeks? Do you think they mean something or what?

Exactly my point BMR! People should wait before they suggest we gave away Sandy Koufax and Bob Gibson for Ritchie. Don't you see I'm Playing devil's advocate? Let's wait awhile before we complain we overpaid. :smile:

Bmr31
04-26-2002, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by BoozeSlut


Exactly my point BMR! People should wait before they suggest we gave away Sandy Koufax and Bob Gibson for Ritchie. Don't you see I'm Playing devil's advocate? Let's wait awhile before we complain we overpaid. :smile:


oh okay. I was one of the people pissed after this trade, but so far, the trade looks good. I mean come on wells and lowe have sucked. Anyone who thinks josh fogg is as good as ritchie, is mislead.

BoozeSlut
04-26-2002, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



oh okay. I was one of the people pissed after this trade, but so far, the trade looks good. I mean come on wells and lowe have sucked. Anyone who thinks josh fogg is as good as ritchie, is mislead.

Completely in agreement with you. I liked all 3 pitchers. I was one of Fogg's biggest fans last season. He was the main reason I was bummed about the trade. But so far...so good. For the love of pete I have him on two of my fantasy teams. But I have been really impressed with Rithchie and his team attitude. I just think people should look at the here and now and and our second best record in baseball instead of looking in the rearview mirror. :gulp:

soxtalker
04-27-2002, 04:27 PM
I did not like the trades -- I'm including the later Guerrier trade -- and, in fact, I'm still not crazy about them. However, it is hard to argue with the job that Ritchie has done so far, and it will probably be much better to have him pitching in a playoff situation than Josh. I agree with the sentiment that we paid too much, but voodoochile made a very good point when he suggested that we look at it from the Pittsburgh GM perspective. And if Lowe was thrown in as someone who wasn't going to make our team, it makes even more sense. So, I understand the arguments of the pro-trade posters. I just would rather have taken the alternate risks of going with the younger players.

My main concern is the farm system. Now, KW has a problem in that he has a bunch of pitchers at the late minor league levels, and there aren't enough slots at the major league level. (I know, that seems like a questionable premise with all of the struggles we've seen after Ritchie and Buerhle. But I can see how KW might have been thinking this way.) So, I can see trading some of them. And you probably can't trade those who are in rehab. However, I'd feel much better if he was getting some promising lower-level minor leaguers in return. I don't get the impression that Yan (Guerrier trade) and Evans (Ritchie trade) fall into that category.

Tragg
04-27-2002, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile




Now the flip side... If you are the Pirates GM, do you take Fogg and Kip for Ritchie straight up? If you say, "yes", can you please try to get a job as GM with a MLB team, so we can rob your team blind all day and night?

For a pitcher with a career 4.50 ERA?
Yes, I would.

Mathew
04-27-2002, 11:59 PM
Did the trade make our team better? Plain and simple. It doesn' matter if the Pirates got more better, as long as we improved.