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kermittheefrog
04-25-2002, 09:07 PM
I just picked up Bill James' new book Win Shares and one of the most interesting things about it is Bill's new ways of evaluating fielding which he claims are revolutionary but really some other people have been doing it too. Nonetheless he's done it on the largest scale so it's interesting to see what he's come up with.

He has assigned grades to fielders based on their performance in his Win Shares system and according to Win Shares Clayton and Valentin are equally excellent fielders. They both got a "B" as a fielding grade from Bill. For reference here are some other shortstop grades for reference:

By the way: Durham is a D second baseman and Thomas an F first baseman.

A+: Ozzie Smith, Dave Concepcion
A: Greg Gane, Barry Larkin
A-: Bucky Dent, Kevin Elster
B+: Ozzie Guillen, Maury Wills
B: Luis Aparicio, Luke Appling
B-: Omar Vizquel, Mike Bordick, Nomar
C+: Jay Bell, Gary DiSarcina, Arod
C: Ernie Banks, Shawon Dunston
C-: Jeff Blauser, Rafael Ramirez
D+: Mark Grudzielanek, Derek Jeter
D: Julio Franco, Chris Gomez
F: Jose Offerman, A few 19th century guys

Dadawg_77
04-25-2002, 09:28 PM
I have been trying to read this but I keep leaving it at my new place. But if I recall correctly, Thomas had a career win share of 2.6 for fielding and 302 or somthing like that for hitting.

raul12
04-25-2002, 09:35 PM
what's so revolutionary about it? i don't get much chance to read much of anything....btw, does he compare offensive output? if so, how do royce and valentin compare offensively?

when i was tracking the game today on gamecast at work, in the third inning, when there were two outs and mj up to bat, i was praying that mj would get on base so that we could start the next inning at the top of the order. anyways, i had to leave my desk, and when i came back, i was pleasantly surprised that clayton had hit one out....to think, he only has one less home run than all the guys in the middle of our order. :) too bad he can't raise that average another 80-100 points!

FanOf14
04-25-2002, 09:42 PM
It seems like Clayton thinks he's a power hitter. I don't mind an occasional homer from him, but he really should concentrate on getting on base not powering one out of the park. When he does that (like second half last year), his BA shoots up. Until then...


GO SOX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dadawg_77
04-25-2002, 09:45 PM
What he does is take a team and for each win a team has gives it 3 win shares, so say the 2002 Sox win 100 games, they would have 300 win shares for the year. Then he uses stats to assign how many win shares a player was worth. He uses D, O and pitching. He is trying to create a stat that could be used to compare player through the years and different parks and what not.

Nellie_Fox
04-25-2002, 09:54 PM
I loved Ozzie Guillen, but better than Aparicio? Not hardly.
:luis&nell
Here buddy, have a chew on me. I've got your back.

Procol Harum
04-26-2002, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
I loved Ozzie Guillen, but better than Aparicio? Not hardly.


Yeah, the rating of Ozzie over Luis made me start taking this system with a serious-sized grain of salt....

Paulwny
04-26-2002, 08:04 PM
Venezuela should advertise in the papers, "Need a good ss come to Venezuela".
Aparicio, Concepcion, Guillen, Vizquel and pre Aparicio, Chico Carresquel are all from Venezuela.

Nellie_Fox
04-27-2002, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Venezuela should advertise in the papers, "Need a good ss come to Venezuela".
Aparicio, Concepcion, Guillen, Vizquel and pre Aparicio, Chico Carresquel are all from Venezuela.
I'm so old, I remember when Little Looie took over from Carrasquel.

beausox
04-27-2002, 01:30 PM
I've been advocating for some time that Valentin's incredible range is the cause of his defensive problems and that he is not a bad SS but just makes erros on balls that most SS wouldn't even get to. I also agree whole-heartdly on the Jeter grade, Jeter is a horrible defensive SS.

Paulwny
04-27-2002, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox

I'm so old, I remember when Little Looie took over from Carrasquel.

There's a few of us in this position.

TornLabrum
04-27-2002, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny


There's a few of us in this position.

I'm one of them. In fact Chico Carrasquel is directly involved in why I became both a baseball fan in general and a White Sox fan in particular. I've told this story in my column, I think, but I'm an OF, so that gives me the right to keep telling it and boring all of you. It's my first memory of anything having to do with baseball.

I was five years old and out playing in the yard when I decided to go visit my grandparents who lived two doors away. My grandpa was watching a Sox game on TV when I came in from the kitchen, and Jack Brickhouse was in hysterics. Back...Back..." (I don't think he was using "Hey! Hey!" then.) At any rate I heard that Chico Carrasquel hit a homer, and that was it. I got a quick explanation from my grandpa and ran home yelling "Carousel hit a homer!"

I turned on the TV at home. I don't remember any of the rest of the game, but that was it. I was hooked.

Back at one of the early SoxFests Chico was signing autographs and I told him the story. He was gracious enough to act interested. He asked me what year it was, and he nodded and said, I thought kind of whistfully, "1955." His last year with the Sox. I also met Jack Brickhouse about a year later and told him the story. He was also very nice putting up with my story when he probably had better things to do, and said that it was gratifying to know that he had done something to make my life more enjoyable.

Damn I love baseball!

Nellie_Fox
04-28-2002, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by beausox
I've been advocating for some time that Valentin's incredible range is the cause of his defensive problems and that he is not a bad SS but just makes erros on balls that most SS wouldn't even get to. I also agree whole-heartdly on the Jeter grade, Jeter is a horrible defensive SS.
This keeps getting repeated, but is simply not true. Most of Jose's errors at short were on balls hit right at him, not on ones he had to range far to his left or right to get. He made the hard plays, it was the routine grounders that ate him up.

Bmr31
04-28-2002, 04:40 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox

This keeps getting repeated, but is simply not true. Most of Jose's errors at short were on balls hit right at him, not on ones he had to range far to his left or right to get. He made the hard plays, it was the routine grounders that ate him up.

not to mention the "rest" of his errors were made on throws.....i dont care what he GETS TO, if he throws the ball in the 10th row. JOSE is a HORRIBLE SS......

cornball
04-28-2002, 09:15 AM
It is always interesting to see new ways to look at things and Bill James does that. I dont agree with all of his grades but some of them seem surprisingly accurate. I would have thought Vizquel would have been alot higher grade.

TornLabrum
04-28-2002, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox

This keeps getting repeated, but is simply not true. Most of Jose's errors at short were on balls hit right at him, not on ones he had to range far to his left or right to get. He made the hard plays, it was the routine grounders that ate him up.

That's pretty much how I remember it, too. Valentin seemed to make most of his errors playing balls wrong or throwing wildly when he had all the time in the world.

MisterB
04-28-2002, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Valentin seemed to make most of his errors playing balls wrong or throwing wildly when he had all the time in the world.

If memory serves me right, that's how Ozzie Guillen made most of his errors, too.

Tragg
04-28-2002, 11:00 PM
The bottom line is we need a young shortstop and royce clayton should not be in major league baseball except perhaps in a graffignino role.