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Sockinchisox
03-13-2008, 11:33 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080313-joe-crede-white-sox-giants,1,1440661.story

If those were the names that the Giants are throwing around I'm really happy Kenny is holding out for something at least halfway useful.

There's no way Villanola is dealt, he's pretty much the only prospect in the Giants system thats good.

soltrain21
03-13-2008, 11:36 PM
I think he might possibly be somewhere in the middle of those two ideas, maybe. He really needs to start hitting the ball. It seems his defense is coming back around.

jackbrohamer
03-14-2008, 11:16 AM
Is it even an option that they just play Crede this year because he's a better player than Fields, and just let him walk at the end of the year?

Lukin13
03-14-2008, 11:59 AM
Is it even an option that they just play Crede this year because he's a better player than Fields, and just let him walk at the end of the year?

That would be an option if you actually thought that a guy who is going to hit: .255, 18 HR, 60 RBI, is better than a guy that is going to hit: .260, 35HR, 90 RBI. Not to mention Fields will walk 50 times and Crede will walk about half that.

Defense is all Crede has on Fields, and even that is slightly questionable if you figure that if you choose Crede you are really choosing Crede for 125 games and Pablo for 35.

Also, even if you still believe Crede is better, is he THAT much of an upgrade? So, why delay the progression of the guy that will actually be on the team next year?

I have no problem with Crede playing 3B against left handed starters, w/ Fields at DH. But Josh has to play everyday at the MLB level in '08.

russ99
03-14-2008, 12:16 PM
Keeping Crede all year could be an option if he does really well, but he'd have to be better than '06 and a case where it would mess up the offense or weaken the club to deal him mid-season.

I do, however, think Kenny would certainly prefer to get something for him rather than let him walk, and it looks like Joe staying with the Sox beyond this year is pretty much not going to happen.

Also, what may weigh into that decision by Kenny is that I think Joe's missed time last year will affect the level of compensation pick the Sox would get if he stays the season and then signs elsewhere as a FA this fall.

I think that's determined by a 3-year average, and last year's bad numbers and one-month played would weigh his rankings down significantly.

Flight #24
03-14-2008, 12:18 PM
I like the idea of a rehab stint in the minors for Crede. Let him get back in shape, prove he's fully healthy, give Josh some time in the bigs to show that he's building off of last year. Win all around for the Sox because the reverse still leaves ?s about Fields whereas Crede's already shown what he can do if healthy.

Plus it lets you get into the season and see how things start. If for example, you have an injury to Thome/Konerko, maybe you move Crede/Fields across the diamond. If you're really getting offers of AAAA caliber guys, no point in dealing Joe.

Dice
03-14-2008, 01:34 PM
Throw in Matt Cain along with Villalona and you got yourself a deal!

JB98
03-14-2008, 01:43 PM
Is it even an option that they just play Crede this year because he's a better player than Fields, and just let him walk at the end of the year?

I think that's precisely what the Sox should do.

What is the point of trading Crede for another organization's garbage?

palehozenychicty
03-14-2008, 01:51 PM
I think that Fields needs to play. Let him work his kinks out, because he has the potential to be a good one.

chisox77
03-14-2008, 01:59 PM
The White Sox, for now, are in a tough spot over this situation.

Other teams know that the Sox want to play Fields at 3B, and that no team can carry two dedicated position players on the 25-man roster (the extra infielder almost alway a utility player/jack of all trades type).

The only way Crede gains trade value is his play. It looks like the White Sox may have to start Crede at 3B, and if he does well, or decent, then his value will increase, but a livable trade may take a while to cultivate. Fields may have to start the season at Charlotte (would be hard for him, or anybody with his talent).

That is, if the Sox want something back for Crede (another factor for the low offers is his health, and the fact that he would be a rental since this is his "walk" year). If they want Fields at 3B immediately, then the Sox would have to trade Crede soon, for next to nothing.


:cool:

It's Dankerific
03-14-2008, 02:11 PM
If you keep fields in AAA for a year, you're not building his major league service time. Why the hell do we care if Fields is delayed another year, when its time for his $$$ we'll get rid of him too.

Play Joe this year, as long as he is healthy. if he really wants to walk, bye bye.

Then Fields comes in and plays till hes a FA too.

I don't understand this "We're delaying Fields" argument. While nothing is guaranteed completely, the odds are we wont keep him around either at FA time. Why do we care if some other team gets him at 31 or 32 or if Fields wont make as much money as quickly???

Lukin13
03-14-2008, 05:22 PM
If you keep fields in AAA for a year, you're not building his major league service time. Why the hell do we care if Fields is delayed another year, when its time for his $$$ we'll get rid of him too.

Play Joe this year, as long as he is healthy. if he really wants to walk, bye bye.

Then Fields comes in and plays till hes a FA too.

I don't understand this "We're delaying Fields" argument. While nothing is guaranteed completely, the odds are we wont keep him around either at FA time. Why do we care if some other team gets him at 31 or 32 or if Fields wont make as much money as quickly???

We signed Mark Buehrle and Jermaine Dye to try and win now.

Josh Fields is currently our best third baseman.
Josh Fields is our best option for a future third baseman.

So how does Joe Crede play?

Trust me, Crede's value is very, very little even if he is completely healthy and ready to go.

Why possibly compromise your clubs chances in '08 AND mess with your top prospect??? For what?

Hopes of getting more return in a trade for a mediocre (but fan favorite) third baseman that is in his walk year???

Joe Crede has been my favorite player on the Sox since '05... but he does not fit in our current or future plans.

I gurantee the people that are clamoring for him this year are the same people who were begging to resign Buehrle for "whatever it costs" last season.

It's Dankerific
03-14-2008, 05:30 PM
While Josh may split favorably in the who's better for the future of 3b in Chicago, there are MANY people who would disagree that hes better than Joe right now. Joe says hes healthy, I'm willing to give him a chance, ESPECIALLY with Josh in AAA incase of problems. Rewatch the 05 playoffs and the 06 season if you want proof that while healthy, hes better than Josh Fields.

If we're really in a "win now" mode, we see what Joe's got, instead of worrying about his salary and what we wont get for him if/when he walks after the year.

We signed Mark Buehrle and Jermaine Dye to try and win now.

Josh Fields is currently our best third baseman.
Josh Fields is our best option for a future third baseman.

So how does Joe Crede play?

Trust me, Crede's value is very, very little even if he is completely healthy and ready to go.

Why possibly compromise your clubs chances in '08 AND mess with your top prospect??? For what?

Hopes of getting more return in a trade for a mediocre (but fan favorite) third baseman that is in his walk year???

Joe Crede has been my favorite player on the Sox since '05... but he does not fit in our current or future plans.

I gurantee the people that are clamoring for him this year are the same people who were begging to resign Buehrle for "whatever it costs" last season.

twsoxfan5
03-14-2008, 05:35 PM
We signed Mark Buehrle and Jermaine Dye to try and win now.

Josh Fields is currently our best third baseman.
Josh Fields is our best option for a future third baseman.

So how does Joe Crede play?

Trust me, Crede's value is very, very little even if he is completely healthy and ready to go.

Why possibly compromise your clubs chances in '08 AND mess with your top prospect??? For what?

Hopes of getting more return in a trade for a mediocre (but fan favorite) third baseman that is in his walk year???

Joe Crede has been my favorite player on the Sox since '05... but he does not fit in our current or future plans.

I gurantee the people that are clamoring for him this year are the same people who were begging to resign Buehrle for "whatever it costs" last season.

No offense bud but everything you stated above is speculation or opinion. You have no idea what his trade value is. We would all guess that it is low but none us know for sure.

Lukin13
03-14-2008, 05:48 PM
Rewatch the 05 playoffs and the 06 season if you want proof that while healthy, hes better than Josh Fields.


And there we have it.

One playoff stretch run does not make the player.

Coming into this offseason I thought I was the biggest Crede fanboy around.

WhiteSox5187
03-14-2008, 05:52 PM
No offense bud but everything you stated above is speculation or opinion. You have no idea what his trade value is. We would all guess that it is low but none us know for sure.
I think it's safe to say that right now a third baseman coming off of major back surgery hitting an impressive .080 has a pretty low trade value...however, let's say he's on the OD roster for the Sox and comes out firing, then his trade value increases significantly. But then this raises the question, do you want to keep Crede and his hot bat (and this all hypothetical) or trade him for something else we need (presumably pitching) and bring Fields up in the middle of a pennant race and hope he produces as Crede was? Or do you look again for another potential extension for Crede and trade Fields? Or just let Crede walk at the end of the season and have Fields get ready for '09? On the flip side of that, what the hell do you do with Crede if he tanks? Say he doesn't get hot towards the end of ST and he's left on the OD roster and continues to struggle at the plate. His trade value would stay about the same, do you bench him? Send him down to AAA? We're kinda caught in a rough spot here.

Lukin13
03-14-2008, 05:53 PM
No offense bud but everything you stated above is speculation or opinion. You have no idea what his trade value is. We would all guess that it is low but none us know for sure.

Isn't everything that is actually discussed speculation or opinoin?

I knew when I said that one line about his trade value being low it would get some attention.

I never have pretended to do more than speculate... but if Josh Fields is not the everyday 3B or DH this season it will be a monumentally poor decision by KW.

Have we come to valuing the average fan's is happiness with the players on the field over the teams ability to win games?

Joe Crede is LOVABLE, and if we start him over Fields that will be a LOSER decision.

ktssox
03-14-2008, 06:07 PM
We signed Mark Buehrle and Jermaine Dye to try and win now.

Josh Fields is currently our best third baseman.


And many of us think Crede gives us a better opportunity to win now. You admit that Crede gives us a better defense. In my opinion, when you have a pitching staff that is less than stellar, you want the best defense you can get out on the field, and that means Crede. Listen to Buehrle's interview that was on the Score today - even he thinks it's better to have Crede in the field. Also, I don't think we'll miss Field's bat at all, especially if the guys can hit closer to their averages this year.

WhiteSox5187
03-14-2008, 06:11 PM
Isn't everything that is actually discussed speculation or opinoin?

I knew when I said that one line about his trade value being low it would get some attention.

I never have pretended to do more than speculate... but if Josh Fields is not the everyday 3B or DH this season it will be a monumentally poor decision by KW.

Have we come to valuing the average fan's is happiness with the players on the field as opposed the teams ability to win games?

Joe Crede is LOVABLE, and if we start him over Fields that will be a LOSER decision.
Again, it depends which Joe Crede shows up. If we're having Joe Crede of the second half of 2005 and of '06, well then you're nuts if you don't want him on your team...if you have the Joe Crede from '04, we'll be in trouble. And if you have the Joe Crede from '03 you can probably get a descent return for him in a trade and start Fields.

Lukin13
03-14-2008, 07:04 PM
Again, it depends which Joe Crede shows up. If we're having Joe Crede of the second half of 2005 and of '06, well then you're nuts if you don't want him on your team...if you have the Joe Crede from '04, we'll be in trouble. And if you have the Joe Crede from '03 you can probably get a descent return for him in a trade and start Fields.

I preach the value of defense and I understand if you prefer Joe to Josh for defense alone. It is very hard to argue against going with the better glove.

My last hurrah, I promise:wink: :

1. I feel Fields will "double up" Crede's offensive numbers.

2. Fields is the future at 3B for the White Sox, why invest in someone who will be gone regardless of their performance in '08?

3. Yes, Crede is a top 5 defensive third baseman, BUT even a "healthy" Joe prolly only starts 125 or so games in '08, therefore you get 30-45 games of Pablo Ozuna at third. Which when factored into the equation gives the WSox about "average" play at 3B for the entire season. That isn't that much of a difference maker to warrant choosing Crede over Fields IMHO.

4. I don't mind much of the arguments for Crede but I really, really, really think most of it is a very "Cub fan" like obsession over a mediocre, slow, shaggy haired, white guy that helped win us a World Series. I think much of the same people that wanted to give Rowand 10mil per, wouldn't trade PK for Howie Kendrick, and wanted to sign Buerhle at any cost are the one's in favor of starting Crede.

champagne030
03-14-2008, 07:26 PM
Is it even an option that they just play Crede this year because he's a better player than Fields, and just let him walk at the end of the year?

Crede should be starting if Kenny is being serious about contending. This pitching staff needs all the help they can get and a sieve at third isn't going to help.

TomBradley72
03-14-2008, 07:31 PM
I think that's precisely what the Sox should do.

What is the point of trading Crede for another organization's garbage?

I agree....besides if a contender's starting 3B goes down with injury...that's our best shot for a decent return for Joe. The Giants aren't "going for it" this year...so not a whole lot of incentive to give up alot for a 1 year player.

Fields isn't even close to Joe with the glove...it won't hurt him to work on his defense at AAA until Joe gets traded or someone gets injured and we need to call him up.

KRS1
03-14-2008, 07:32 PM
And there we have it.

One playoff stretch run does not make the player.



How about the Silver Slugger award he won following it? Does that make a player? Or the years of amazing D and clutch hitting, does that help make a case for him?

It's Dankerific
03-14-2008, 07:36 PM
How about the Silver Slugger award he won following it? Does that make a player? Or the years of amazing D and clutch hitting, does that help make a case for him?

Apparently not....

sullythered
03-14-2008, 07:37 PM
Wow. I really don't want to retard the progress of a potential big time power hitter. I also don't think it would be at all fair to send down the only guy who was hitting for us for a good portion of last year. That said, I think anybody who says a healthy Joe Crede is only a little better defensively than Josh Fields is out of their mind. Crede is an absolute defensive phenom, and the only thing that kept him from winning a couple of gold gloves at this point is the skewed voting for offensive powerhouses.

I also believe more in pitching and defense than just hitting for power (see us for the first part of this decade). Our starting staff is a crapshoot as it is, so I'm not sure we can afford defensive liabilities.

I honestly don't know what the Sox should do with this situation, but please be realistic about the difference between these two when they are playing the field.

TomBradley72
03-14-2008, 07:37 PM
4. I don't mind much of the arguments for Crede but I really, really, really think most of it is a very "Cub fan" like obsession over a mediocre, slow, shaggy haired, white guy that helped win us a World Series. I think much of the same people that wanted to give Rowand 10mil per, wouldn't trade PK for Howie Kendrick, and wanted to sign Buerhle at any cost are the one's in favor of starting Crede.

The "Cub fan" comment is just plain out of line. :cool:

Not sure what his race or his hair have to do with anything.

Not sure if speed is something you usually expect from your 3B.

His last healthy season he delivered .283-30-94 while playing Gold Glove type defense. I'm pretty sure that's the best single season EVER by a White Sox 3rd baseman..at least since Buck Weaver or something. Not sure how that equates to "mediocre".

Craig Grebeck
03-14-2008, 07:45 PM
The "Cub fan" comment is just plain out of line. :cool:

Not sure what his race or his hair have to do with anything.

Not sure if speed is something you usually expect from your 3B.

His last healthy season he delivered .283-30-94 while playing Gold Glove type defense. I'm pretty sure that's the best single season EVER by a White Sox 3rd baseman..at least since Buck Weaver or something. Not sure how that equates to "mediocre".
Robin Ventura posted six seasons better than that from 1991-1996. He also played much better defense.

How about the Silver Slugger award he won following it? Does that make a player? Or the years of amazing D and clutch hitting, does that help make a case for him?
He didn't deserve the Silver Slugger.

What is the incentive to keeping Joe around? We won't get draft picks, we will hurt Josh's development and we will put a big question mark at 3rd base.

sullythered
03-14-2008, 07:53 PM
Robin Ventura posted six seasons better than that from 1991-1996. He also played much better defense.


He didn't deserve the Silver Slugger.


I agree, if we had a circa-early 90's Robin on the team, neither one of these guys would be our third baseman, but Robin did not play much better defense than Joe.

And why didn't Joe deserve the Silver Slugger he won?

KRS1
03-14-2008, 07:55 PM
Robin Ventura posted six seasons better than that from 1991-1996. He also played much better defense.


He didn't deserve the Silver Slugger.



Bull honkey. I can accept people saying Robin was better defensively, and I pretty much agree. However, calling his D "much better" is just being ridiculous.

He won the Silver Slugger for having an outstanding season with the bat. Deserved or not (debatable), he followed up a strong playoff run with a damn impressive season. Which goes against Lukin's claim that it was only his playoff run that people are hanging onto with Joe.

Let me say that I want Josh starting at third, I just wanted to comment on Lukin's statement about Joe's only shining moment being the end of 05'.

Craig Grebeck
03-14-2008, 07:59 PM
I agree, if we had a circa-early 90's Robin on the team, neither one of these guys would be our third baseman, but Robin did not play much better defense than Joe.

And why didn't Joe deserve the Silver Slugger he won?
Out of 11 third basemen with 400 PA, he had the 10th highest OBP. Troy Glaus or Alex Rodriguez should have won it by a mile.

Craig Grebeck
03-14-2008, 08:00 PM
Ok, I concede that much better was a tad hyperbolic. I think Robin was a better defensive third basemen. "Much better" is inaccurate.

oeo
03-14-2008, 08:24 PM
No offense bud but everything you stated above is speculation or opinion. You have no idea what his trade value is. We would all guess that it is low but none us know for sure.

The Giants have offered a since released pitcher, and a since optioned to AAA pitcher. That's low.

sircaffey1
03-14-2008, 08:29 PM
Joe Crede is better defensively, but those people expecting the same Joe, defensively and offensively, to show up after major back surgery and 8 months of baseball inactivity are fooling themselves. Crede's defense will not be as good as it was in 2006.

sullythered
03-14-2008, 09:04 PM
Joe Crede is better defensively, but those people expecting the same Joe, defensively and offensively, to show up after major back surgery and 8 months of baseball inactivity are fooling themselves. Crede's defense will not be as good as it was in 2006.
It has been so far.

southsideirish71
03-14-2008, 10:41 PM
Ok, I concede that much better was a tad hyperbolic. I think Robin was a better defensive third basemen. "Much better" is inaccurate.

Well Robin had 6 gold gloves to his name, and Joe Crede is still working on his first.

Robin was a better over all player hands down. Its not even close. The best Crede season from an OPS+ side was the average that Robin put up. The only thing that Crede gets is points for being on the WS team.

sullythered
03-14-2008, 10:58 PM
Well Robin had 6 gold gloves to his name, and Joe Crede is still working on his first.

Robin was a better over all player hands down. Its not even close. The best Crede season from an OPS+ side was the average that Robin put up. The only thing that Crede gets is points for being on the WS team.
Nobody said that Joe was a better player than Robin. But defensively, they are pretty close. As I have said in the past, offensive production absolutely sways Gold Glove voters. In my eyes, Joe has been the most underrated defensive player in the league for years.

JB98
03-14-2008, 11:20 PM
Ventura or Crede? Who cares?

How is that relevant to the 2008 Sox?

Again, there is no reason to trade Crede for another organization's garbage. If we get a piece that can help us in return, then fine.

But unless we get something useful, I'm perfectly comfortable going into the season with Crede at 3B and Fields in Charlotte.

Joe's defense is a helluva lot better than Fields. That's why he is the starter.

Just what the hell is wrong with having two third basemen? I'd rather have too much quality than not enough. This is a pleasant "problem" to have.

Craig Grebeck
03-15-2008, 01:40 AM
How is it a pleasant problem to have one guy who has "graduated" from the minor leagues and is ready for full time MLB play blocked by an injury prone, no stick 3B with no value?

santo=dorf
03-15-2008, 02:17 AM
How is it a pleasant problem to have one guy who has "graduated" from the minor leagues and is ready for full time MLB play blocked by an injury prone, no stick 3B with no value?
Not to mention the injury prone player is making $5.1 million, and the main buyer has only offered junk like Dave Roberts or Scott Williamson.

WhiteSox5187
03-15-2008, 05:23 AM
How is it a pleasant problem to have one guy who has "graduated" from the minor leagues and is ready for full time MLB play blocked by an injury prone, no stick 3B with no value?
This is ridiculous...if Crede's healthy, he'll have a big stick with him and just cuz Fields had a good couple of months it doesn't mean he's "graduated" elt's not fool ourselves into thinking that Fields is the second coming of Mike Schmidt. He had a nice year in '07, and so did Ron Kittle in '83 (they up strikingly similar numbers) and what Kittle ever do again? He hit 32 HRs in '84 but with a whopping .215 AVG and then never did anything again (except a couple of roof shots). I'm not trying to knock Fields here but if we go back to the beginning of '03 I'm people were saying Crede was going to have a monster year (he hit .285 with 12 HRs in 58 games in '02) but he wound up hitting .261 and then bottomed out in '04. So let's wait before we crown Fields as a HOFer and before we kick Crede out the door.

Tragg
03-15-2008, 09:55 AM
This is ridiculous...if Crede's healthy, he'll have a big stick with him and just cuz Fields had a good couple of months it doesn't mean he's "graduated" elt's not fool ourselves into thinking that Fields is the second coming of Mike Schmidt. He had a nice year in '07, and so did Ron Kittle in '83 (they up strikingly similar numbers) and what Kittle ever do again? He hit 32 HRs in '84 but with a whopping .215 AVG and then never did anything again (except a couple of roof shots). I'm not trying to knock Fields here but if we go back to the beginning of '03 I'm people were saying Crede was going to have a monster year (he hit .285 with 12 HRs in 58 games in '02) but he wound up hitting .261 and then bottomed out in '04. So let's wait before we crown Fields as a HOFer and before we kick Crede out the door.
He's a young player with a ton of potential that needs to play this year. Williams knows that. The question is whether it's worth it to wait it out and get something more valuable for Crede or to trade him for the usual now to get Fields in there now. I've seen worse things that Fields playing 3rd twice a week and DHing against lefties for 1/2 a season or so...and we'd have a pinch hitter who could tie the game for the first time in ages. I'd do that before Charlotte for Fields

WhiteSox5187
03-15-2008, 03:56 PM
He's a young player with a ton of potential that needs to play this year. Williams knows that. The question is whether it's worth it to wait it out and get something more valuable for Crede or to trade him for the usual now to get Fields in there now. I've seen worse things that Fields playing 3rd twice a week and DHing against lefties for 1/2 a season or so...and we'd have a pinch hitter who could tie the game for the first time in ages. I'd do that before Charlotte for Fields
That's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure if Fields is ready for a platoon role and if it makes a whole lot of sense to carry two guys who can only play third (though let's not forget Crede's stint at short in '05!!! :redneck). I think the Sox are actually in a good spot here, because let's say we don't like any of our offers for Crede and we decide "**** it, we'll keep him on the roster." Well if he winds up having the sort of year he had in '06 then you can deal him for good quality players and address a need we have (probably pitching) and call up Fields in his place (though that's a lot of pressure on the kid IF we're in the middle of a pennant race) or you can decide to bite the bullet and keep Crede and let him walk, if he has a mediocre year (like say in '05 or '03) you can trade him for some descent prospects who might be able to help you down the road, call up Fields. If he tanks you trade him for whatever garbage you can get and call up Fields (it's not like Crede's lack of offensive production is going ot make or break the '08 White Sox) and if he winds up getting hurt you bite the bullet and let him walk and call up Fields. Those are a lot of options there and the more options the better...and I don't think another month or two in Triple A is going to wind up absolutely destroying Fields' development OR his confidence, he knows what's going on and what we're trying to do about it.