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View Full Version : Vazquez, not Buehrle, starting opening day.


Sockinchisox
03-12-2008, 09:58 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080312-javier-vazquez-mark-buehrle,1,4643917.story

munchman33
03-12-2008, 09:59 PM
That's quite the shocker, especially given Buehrle's contract.

Dub25
03-12-2008, 10:04 PM
No big deal. Doesn't that now mean Mark starts the home opener?

Sockinchisox
03-12-2008, 10:05 PM
No big deal. Doesn't that now mean Mark starts the home opener?

Yes, it also means Danks is going to be the #5 guy and Floyd is #3.

Dub25
03-12-2008, 10:07 PM
Yes, it also means Danks is going to be the #5 guy and Floyd is #3.

Is that confirmed? If so, I don't like that. I'm open to someone convincing me otherwise, but I have no confidence in Floyd.

rdwj
03-12-2008, 10:08 PM
Perhaps they are playing match-ups?

ChiSoxGirl
03-12-2008, 10:09 PM
That's quite the shocker, especially given Buehrle's contract.

No kidding. I know there was speculation about it, but I'm pretty surprised it's been made official, especially with 2 1/2 weeks left in camp. I did read somewhere, though that Buehrle has never beaten Capt. Cheeseburger.... Didn't Ozzie learn after last year's Opening Day that you start no one but Buehrle?! :wink:

No big deal. Doesn't that now mean Mark starts the home opener?

If that's true, the game will be over by 5p at the latest. :wink:

1989
03-12-2008, 10:09 PM
must have been vazquez's great start today

DumpJerry
03-12-2008, 10:10 PM
That's quite the shocker, especially given Buehrle's contract.
Why? Does his contract state he must start on Opening Day?

Mr. White Sox
03-12-2008, 10:14 PM
I don't have a problem with this. In fact, as much flak as this may get from the Burlymoniacs, I fully expect Javy to be the ace of this staff and lead the team in wins, ERA, and obviously K's.

Chilli Palmer
03-12-2008, 10:18 PM
Why? Does his contract state he must start on Opening Day?

I know right.

And this does mean Buehrle on 4/7. :bandance::bandance::bandance:

munchman33
03-12-2008, 10:18 PM
Why? Does his contract state he must start on Opening Day?

Because, between the lines, that deal says "ACE."

Another point: Does this add pressure on Javy? Why would we do that? He has a history of buckling under pressure.

sox1970
03-12-2008, 10:22 PM
Because, between the lines, that deal says "ACE."

Our ACE that can't beat real aces, like say.....I don't know.....CC Sabathia!

0-5 lifetime in 8 starts head to head.

I'll take my chances with Javy, and let Burls pitch the home opener.

twentywontowin
03-12-2008, 10:23 PM
Doesn't matter who gets us rolling...all that matters is October.

rdivaldi
03-12-2008, 10:24 PM
Is that confirmed? If so, I don't like that. I'm open to someone convincing me otherwise, but I have no confidence in Floyd.

Note that because of that setup, Floyd will be making his first start of the season against Detroit, a team he dominated last year.

DumpJerry
03-12-2008, 10:25 PM
Because, between the lines, that deal says "ACE."

Another point: Does this add pressure on Javy? Why would we do that? He has a history of buckling under pressure.
Assuming no injuries, he will get the same number of starts all season long whether he pitches on Opening Day or the second day. This really is a non-issue.

sox1970
03-12-2008, 10:26 PM
Note that because of that setup, Floyd will be making his first start of the season against Detroit, a team he dominated last year.

No, he's the third starter now.

munchman33
03-12-2008, 10:47 PM
Assuming no injuries, he will get the same number of starts all season long whether he pitches on Opening Day or the second day.

You and I know that. But pride and pressure both have impacts on performance.

JB98
03-12-2008, 10:55 PM
With Floyd's history of success against Detroit, I'm not sure why he's being moved to the third spot, where he will pitch against Cleveland.

If we're playing matchups, we should give Contreras that third game and let Floyd open the series in Detroit.

sox1970
03-12-2008, 10:59 PM
With Floyd's history of success against Detroit, I'm not sure why he's being moved to the third spot, where he will pitch against Cleveland.

If we're playing matchups, we should give Contreras that third game and let Floyd open the series in Detroit.

I would have gone Vazquez, Buehrle, Contreras, Floyd, Danks, but they don't want the young pitchers going back to back.

The thinking is they won't pitch as many innings, so the bullpen would throw too much in those back to back games.

TDog
03-12-2008, 11:08 PM
Our ACE that can't beat real aces, like say.....I don't know.....CC Sabathia!

0-5 lifetime in 8 starts head to head.

I'll take my chances with Javy, and let Burls pitch the home opener.


In the 2006 season opener, Buehrle started against Sabathia, and the Sox won. Neither pitcher got the decision. The Indians tied the game after Sabathia left and Buehrle, if memory serves, came out early because of a rain delay.

rdivaldi
03-12-2008, 11:12 PM
No, he's the third starter now.

You're right, my dyslexia had Floyd and Danks flip-flopped when I was scanning the article.

:redface:

WhiteSox5187
03-12-2008, 11:17 PM
I really think this move is reflective of Ozzie wanting Buerhle to start the home opener which is like an opening day of itself, had the Sox stared in Chicago on March 31st I'm 99% sure that Buerhle would be on the bump that day. In fact, I wouldn't be shocked if Ozzie asked Buerhle "Would you mind if we put Javy on the mound on the 31st and you open up at home?"

kittle42
03-12-2008, 11:18 PM
This is a complete non-issue and I would be fairly certain that matchups are not an issue, either. We're only talking about the first few weeks of the season as far as that goes. And it's irrelevant whether Floyd or Danks or anyone is "Number 5." Who cares?

JB98
03-12-2008, 11:24 PM
This is a complete non-issue and I would be fairly certain that matchups are not an issue, either. We're only talking about the first few weeks of the season as far as that goes. And it's irrelevant whether Floyd or Danks or anyone is "Number 5." Who cares?

Given that we open the season with a steady diet of Cleveland, Detroit and Minnesota, I think they are making a mistake if they aren't looking for the best possible matchups.

havelj
03-12-2008, 11:29 PM
First - it's not official and second, I like it. Javy can be - by far - the ace of this staff.

thomas35forever
03-13-2008, 12:07 AM
After seeing his stuff today, I'm not surprised by this. Buehrle may be our ace, but Vazquez sure can do what Bartolo Colon did for us in '03. Both are on my fantasy team and I may just keep 'em for the long haul.

LoveYourSuit
03-13-2008, 12:13 AM
Impacto Deportivo now reporting that Bartolo Colon will be our opening day starter.

kittle42
03-13-2008, 12:16 AM
Impacto Deportivo now reporting that Bartolo Colon will be our opening day starter.

Now that's a quality post!

LoveYourSuit
03-13-2008, 12:26 AM
Now that's a quality post!


Sorry man, I just had to.

You can't go teal with that news outlet.

JohnTucker0814
03-13-2008, 08:05 AM
Given that we open the season with a steady diet of Cleveland, Detroit and Minnesota, I think they are making a mistake if they aren't looking for the best possible matchups.

I agree... and I'm glad Floyd is starting against Cleveland and not Detroit... he may have dominated Detroit for 1 game last year, but that was before Cabrera and Renteria entered the mix.... good choice to use Floyd against Cleveland!

Jerko
03-13-2008, 08:11 AM
Because, between the lines, that deal says "ACE."

Another point: Does this add pressure on Javy? Why would we do that? He has a history of buckling under pressure.

I agree munchman. The "book" on Javy has been that he folds under pressure, and I was happy with him as the #2 guy. Hopefully that's behind him now and he doesn't go out and wet the bed because he's the "ace" of the team.

Also, if we have to play "matchup" all year, we're ****ed. Roll out the starting 5 until you see who can and can't handle it. Then make changes. We can't be playing matchup for one or two friggin series at the expense of the rest of the season.

Jerko
03-13-2008, 08:13 AM
In the 2006 season opener, Buehrle started against Sabathia, and the Sox won. Neither pitcher got the decision. The Indians tied the game after Sabathia left and Buehrle, if memory serves, came out early because of a rain delay.


And shock of shocks, we had a few lefties in the lineup that day and actually won.

Frontman
03-13-2008, 08:19 AM
Does it really matter? I'd rather be concerned with the Sox winning the game versus who goes first in Cleveland.

And if its anything like last season, the Season Opener will be made up in June anyways......

chisoxmike
03-13-2008, 11:35 AM
I always saw being the Opening Day starter as more of a honor to the guy who is the face of your staff more than anything. I thought they really gave the finger to him last year and put Contreras there. This year, after signing a low ball contract after weeks and weeks of ****ing around with him, I thought it was a slam dunk that he was going to be named the opening day starter. Guess not.

sox1970
03-13-2008, 11:39 AM
If Buehrle would have started Opening Day last year, he'd be starting opening day this year too just to keep the streak going. Yes, he was screwed last year because of his contract situation.

As it stands, Vazquez is a better option against Sabathia, with Buehrle getting the home opener.

Win/Win.

GAsoxfan
03-13-2008, 11:42 AM
Ozzie has clearly stated that the Opening Day starter would be determined by Floyd and Danks. Ozzie didn't want the two lefties going back-to-back, so since Danks is the #5 guy, that makes Javy the #1. It's not a knock on Mark at all.

cheezheadsoxfan
03-13-2008, 11:45 AM
I'm just glad I'll get to see Mark in the home opener. :smile: To me that's the bigger honor.

skottyj242
03-13-2008, 12:39 PM
Nice, now I'll get to see Danks and Javy in Detroit with a dose of Buehrle on Opening Day. Will Toby Hall catch Javy on Sunday night or Buehrle on Opening Day?

ajismyhero
03-13-2008, 12:39 PM
Ugh, Jose Contreras.....he's my biggest maybe in this rotation.

soxfan13
03-13-2008, 12:56 PM
Nice, now I'll get to see Danks and Javy in Detroit with a dose of Buehrle on Opening Day. Will Toby Hall catch Javy on Sunday night or Buehrle on Opening Day?

Didnt you hear? Toby cant ****ing throw the ball he might get cut TODAY!!!!:redneck

skottyj242
03-13-2008, 12:58 PM
Didnt you hear? Toby cant ****ing throw the ball he might get cut TODAY!!!!:redneck

Link?

soxfan13
03-13-2008, 01:01 PM
Link?

I dont know I saw it on some thread here:gulp:

skottyj242
03-13-2008, 01:09 PM
I dont know I saw it on some thread here:gulp:

Go outside and practice falling down, I'll be out in about two hours. :stooges:

Jjav829
03-13-2008, 05:29 PM
I always saw being the Opening Day starter as more of a honor to the guy who is the face of your staff more than anything. I thought they really gave the finger to him last year and put Contreras there. This year, after signing a low ball contract after weeks and weeks of ****ing around with him, I thought it was a slam dunk that he was going to be named the opening day starter. Guess not.

I agree. It just seems like the past few years there has always been a debate about this, while Mark Buehrle has quietly been one of the best pitchers the Sox have had in recent history (over his career, not necessarily individual season). Remember all the talk after Contreras' big 2nd half in 2005? There were people on this board saying that no one pitcher was as good as Contreras as of the 05-06 offseason. People love to obsess over recent performance and ignore history, even though history plays a huge role in predicting the future.

But as long as Buehrle is fine with it, I suppose it doesn't really matter. And I'm sure he'll go out and put up another typical Mark Buehrle year and be the best starter on the staff. And if some Sox starter has an unexpected big year (and we should be so lucky), we'll have this same debate going into next season.

oeo
03-13-2008, 06:37 PM
This is a complete non-issue and I would be fairly certain that matchups are not an issue, either. We're only talking about the first few weeks of the season as far as that goes. And it's irrelevant whether Floyd or Danks or anyone is "Number 5." Who cares?

Sure it does. You don't want your weakest pitcher facing off against their 3rd starter.

Not saying Floyd is the weakest, but it's nonsense to think that the rotation order does not matter.

The situation is different than last year because Buehrle still gets to pitch the home opener...and I was against Contreras being the No.1 from the day it was announced.

Daver
03-13-2008, 06:40 PM
Sure it does. You don't want your weakest pitcher facing off against their 3rd starter.

Not saying Floyd is the weakest, but it's nonsense to think that the rotation order does not matter.



It matters for about a week and a half, and then does not matter till the post season, I really don't think a week and a half will kill the team.

oeo
03-13-2008, 06:43 PM
It matters for about a week and a half, and then does not matter till the post season, I really don't think a week and a half will kill the team.

This debate happens all the time.

You will (mostly) see the top of the rotation face off against the opponent's top of the rotation. Therefore, how does the order not matter after the first week and a half?

Frater Perdurabo
03-13-2008, 07:27 PM
This debate happens all the time.

You will (mostly) see the top of the rotation face off against the opponent's top of the rotation. Therefore, how does the order not matter after the first week and a half?

Because of off days, and then early-season rainouts, and some teams skipping starters (to avoid using a particularly bad starter, or for matchups - like Gardenhire always making sure Santana faces the Sox every series -, or to give a starter a game off to nurse some soreness), teams' rotations get out of sync with those of other teams.

Daver
03-13-2008, 07:42 PM
Because of off days, and then early-season rainouts, and some teams skipping starters (to avoid using a particularly bad starter, or for matchups - like Gardenhire always making sure Santana faces the Sox every series -, or to give a starter a game off to nurse some soreness), teams' rotations get out of sync with those of other teams.

Bingo.

Jenks4Prez
03-13-2008, 08:42 PM
We are going to suck this year

KenBerryGrab
03-13-2008, 09:06 PM
Hey now. Let's foster a positive milieu.

BainesHOF
03-13-2008, 09:11 PM
That's the way it should be. This isn't 2005 anymore. Nothing against Buehrle, but Vazquez is our most effective starting pitcher right now. This is a good sign that Ozzie isn't messing around or deferring to veterans because of the past.

It's also great that Ozzie is recognizing the signs that Floyd looks like he can contribute in a major way this year. And, likewise, that Danks is the weakest link on our starting staff.

I have my fingers crossed that Williams will be able to bolster the major-league team when he trades Crede and, hopefully, Uribe, provided that Richar shows his back is OK. I think the trades will determine whether we have a real outside chance of making the playoffs or simply just becoming a decent team.

skottyj242
03-14-2008, 08:59 AM
We are going to suck this year


Post Of The Weak. :dtroll:

Flight #24
03-14-2008, 09:15 AM
It matters for about a week and a half, and then does not matter till the post season, I really don't think a week and a half will kill the team.

And that week and a half translates to what - 2 starts? And let's not forget the flipside which is if your #3-5 is lining up against someone else's #1, then your #1 by definition is lining up against someone else's #2-5.

It ain't no thing but a chicken wing on a string.

rdivaldi
03-14-2008, 09:29 AM
We are going to suck this year

I love it when you analyze....

:dtroll:

simbro
03-14-2008, 10:00 AM
i read something yesterday that said they would move Javy to the opening day starter if they drop Danks to #5 because they didn't want their 2 lefties going back to back. if they decided to put Floyd at #5 then they would mose likely leave it as Buehrle on opening day

alohafri
03-14-2008, 10:06 AM
I have no problem with this. Vaz was as close to a dominant pitcher we had last year, with the exception of Mark's no-no.

spiffie
03-14-2008, 10:10 AM
This debate happens all the time.

You will (mostly) see the top of the rotation face off against the opponent's top of the rotation. Therefore, how does the order not matter after the first week and a half?
Let's see what happened last year. John Danks faced the following pitchers:
Johan Santana 4/8
Paul Byrd 4/14
Chad Durbin 4/20
Chad Durbin 4/25
Miguel Batista 5/2
Russ Ortiz 5/9
Mike Mussina 5/16
Colby Lewis 5/22
Boof Bonser 5/29
Shaun Marcum 6/3
Chris Sampson 6/8
Kyle Kendrick 6/13
Dontrelle Willis 6/19
J.P. Howell 6/25
Odalis Perez 6/30
Brian Burres 7/5
Cliff Lee 7/16
Kason "Cy" Gabbard 7/21
Justin Verlander 7/26
Andy Petitte 8/1

Looks like he started out as hard as it gets and faced a mix of pitchers throughout the year. Just as you would expect I think.

sox1970
03-14-2008, 11:39 AM
The Score just reported that Ozzie changed his mind. Back to Buehrle for the season opener.

Jaffar
03-14-2008, 11:40 AM
According to the score, the rotation is back to what it was, order wise with Buehrle going on opening day. Their source was Ozzie.

havelj
03-14-2008, 11:44 AM
In 2007, Javy was:

5th in A.L. in K/9 (7th in MLB)-better than Beckett, Daisuke, Zambrano, Verlander, Sabathia, Young, Maine
4th in A.L. in WHIP (7th in MLB)-better than Sabathia, Beckett, Webb, Haren, Burnett, Lilly, Carmona, Maine, Lincecom
4th in A.L. in Ks (6th in MLB)
16th in A.L. in ERA with 3.74-better than even some N.L. pitchers such as: Maine, Lincecom, Zambrano
10th in A.L. in Wins

sox1970
03-14-2008, 11:58 AM
In 2007, Javy was:

5th in A.L. in K/9 (7th in MLB)-better than Beckett, Daisuke, Zambrano, Verlander, Sabathia, Young, Maine
4th in A.L. in WHIP (7th in MLB)-better than Sabathia, Beckett, Webb, Haren, Burnett, Lilly, Carmona, Maine, Lincecom
4th in A.L. in Ks (6th in MLB)
16th in A.L. in ERA with 3.74-better than even some N.L. pitchers such as: Maine, Lincecom, Zambrano
10th in A.L. in Wins

I think it's more about Danks and Floyd, than Buehrle and Javy.

So the Sox lose the opener, and then Vazquez beats Carmona on Wednesday.

havelj
03-14-2008, 12:01 PM
I agree about Danks and Floyd driving this - plus Mark could care less if he is #1 or #2. He is a great teammate.

rdivaldi
03-14-2008, 12:42 PM
So that means Floyd is back to pitching against the Tigers?

sox1970
03-14-2008, 12:45 PM
So that means Floyd is back to pitching against the Tigers?

Si.

balke
03-14-2008, 01:14 PM
So the Sox lose the opener, and then Vazquez beats Carmona on Wednesday.


What an obnoxious thing to say. Why is it when fans on this site don't get their way they become negative babies? Why can't you support Buehrle come opening day?

Vazquez finally has one decent year since 2003, and all of a sudden he's the no questions ace? GMAB. Buehrle didn't get the wins last season, but he had fewer earned runs given up than any starter on the team, and carried the team very well in the first half. I think he can and will lead the Sox past any team in the division. So get out there and support whichever is opening day starter.

rdivaldi
03-14-2008, 01:16 PM
I seem to remember the home opener in 2005 when the White Sox won 1- 0 with Buerhle on the hill. Who were they playing?

sox1970
03-14-2008, 01:38 PM
What an obnoxious thing to say. Why is it when fans on this site don't get their way they become negative babies? Why can't you support Buehrle come opening day?

Vazquez finally has one decent year since 2003, and all of a sudden he's the no questions ace? GMAB. Buehrle didn't get the wins last season, but he had fewer earned runs given up than any starter on the team, and carried the team very well in the first half. I think he can and will lead the Sox past any team in the division. So get out there and support whichever is opening day starter.

Chill. I support the team like Puddy supports the Devils.

Sabathia vs. Buehrle head-to head in 8 starts:

Sabathia 5-0
Buehrle 0-5

Maybe we're due.

Iwritecode
03-14-2008, 01:55 PM
What an obnoxious thing to say. Why is it when fans on this site don't get their way they become negative babies? Why can't you support Buehrle come opening day?

Vazquez finally has one decent year since 2003, and all of a sudden he's the no questions ace? GMAB. Buehrle didn't get the wins last season, but he had fewer earned runs given up than any starter on the team, and carried the team very well in the first half. I think he can and will lead the Sox past any team in the division. So get out there and support whichever is opening day starter.

I don't think it was a diss of Buehrle. I think it's more the fact that the team hasn't figured out how to beat Sabathia yet. He's 6-1 in 11 games over the past three years against the Sox.

balke
03-14-2008, 02:09 PM
I don't think it was a diss of Buehrle. I think it's more the fact that the team hasn't figured out how to beat Sabathia yet. He's 6-1 in 11 games over the past three years against the Sox.


Yeah, I understand that. It would be nice if the Sox could add someone who could hit lefties well when/if they make some trades soon.

spiffie
03-14-2008, 02:13 PM
Chill. I support the team like Puddy supports the Devils.

Sabathia vs. Buehrle head-to head in 8 starts:

Sabathia 5-0
Buehrle 0-5

Maybe we're due.
We've won two of the last three times Buehrle took the mound against C.C.

sox1970
03-14-2008, 02:16 PM
We've won two of the last three times Buehrle took the mound against C.C.

Well hopefully Buehrle will come away with the W this time.

Sounds like the decision had a lot to do with giving Floyd his first two starts versus Detroit.

Tekijawa
03-14-2008, 02:40 PM
booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Region Rat
03-15-2008, 11:04 AM
It's Buehrle

White Sox.com:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080314&content_id=2426635&vkey=spt2008news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws