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Thigpen "57"
03-11-2008, 05:58 PM
Just saw this. I really liked this guy when he was with the Sox, but he seems to be another that Kenny let go at the right time.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AnArcbcwOKaCfzMwm71.ny4RvLYF?slug=ap-rangers-injuries&prov=ap&type=lgns

He is still young and can still be a good pitcher. It just seems that he has not been able to stay healthy enough though.

WhiteSox5187
03-11-2008, 06:10 PM
That trade looks better and better with every passing day.

JermaineDye05
03-11-2008, 06:23 PM
Wasn't Brandon compared to Mark Prior while he was coming up? That comparison appears to be dead on. Hopefully he can get healthy though, I wish nothing but the best for him. He pitched his ass off in some of those games down the stretch in 05.

Frontman
03-11-2008, 06:35 PM
Five will get you ten that someone will still bash Kenny for this trade within two pages.

I never like hearing players get hurt, but as its been said; maybe Kenny knew more about B Mac than he let anyone know.

steely712
03-11-2008, 06:51 PM
Who did we get for him again? It has been pissin me off, that I can't remember.

Frater Perdurabo
03-11-2008, 06:57 PM
Who did we get for him again? It has been pissin me off, that I can't remember.

Danks, Massett and Rasner.

Danks alone seems to have been worth McCarthy.

JUribe1989
03-11-2008, 08:11 PM
Danks, Massett and Rasner.

Danks alone seems to have been worth McCarthy.

Let's be fair here

Danks pitched in 26 games last year and had a 5.50 ERA
McCarthy pitched in 23 games last year and had a 4.87 ERA

Danks is only two years younger than McCarthy

McCarthy is supposed to be back in early May.

Let's be realistic here, Danks is currently no better than McCarthy.
I'm not saying he won't be, but he's not an overwhelming upgrade as of yet.

A. Cavatica
03-11-2008, 08:41 PM
Ouch.

That's why I'm not GM.

Brian26
03-11-2008, 08:49 PM
Let's be fair here

Danks pitched in 26 games last year and had a 5.50 ERA
McCarthy pitched in 23 games last year and had a 4.87 ERA.

Comparing ERAs between US Cellular Launching Pad and the Graveyard at Arlington is difficult at best. A 5.50 at the Cell is considerably smaller if Danks is pitching for Texas.

JermaineDye05
03-11-2008, 08:56 PM
Comparing ERAs between US Cellular Launching Pad and the Graveyard at Arlington is difficult at best. A 5.50 at the Cell is considerably smaller if Danks is pitching for Texas.

Isn't Arlington just as much of a launching pad as the Cell?

JUribe1989
03-11-2008, 09:10 PM
Comparing ERAs between US Cellular Launching Pad and the Graveyard at Arlington is difficult at best. A 5.50 at the Cell is considerably smaller if Danks is pitching for Texas.


Well, his ERA on the road was 5.23 and at the Cell it was 5.83, so not too much of a difference there.

Brian26
03-11-2008, 09:17 PM
Well, his ERA on the road was 5.23 and at the Cell it was 5.83, so not too much of a difference there.

I consider 0.60 a big difference in ERA. Meanwhile...

McCarthy's ERA in Texas was 4.17, while on the road he was 5.43.

So Danks had a better ERA playing an unbalanced schedule of road games at the RollerDome and the Jake than BMac had playing in Seattle, Oakland and Anaheim (three of the biggest stadiums in baseball)....5.23 vs. 5.43.

DickAllen72
03-11-2008, 09:19 PM
Where is Rasner now and how has he been doing? What's the general prognosis for him?

Brian26
03-11-2008, 09:19 PM
Isn't Arlington just as much of a launching pad as the Cell?

No. The three launching pads in baseball are the Cell, Great American, and Coors. BPatArlington is usually middle of the pack towards bottom third.

pjchisox13
03-11-2008, 09:56 PM
Just saw this. I really liked this guy when he was with the Sox, but he seems to be another that Kenny let go at the right time.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AnArcbcwOKaCfzMwm71.ny4RvLYF?slug=ap-rangers-injuries&prov=ap&type=lgns

He is still young and can still be a good pitcher. It just seems that he has not been able to stay healthy enough though.
All I know is that he has killed me the last two years in a keeper league I have going, oh well...

Frater Perdurabo
03-11-2008, 10:46 PM
Isn't Arlington just as much of a launching pad as the Cell?

No. The three launching pads in baseball are the Cell, Great American, and Coors. BPatArlington is usually middle of the pack towards bottom third.

Here's the thing about Arlington. It's quite large in left, left-center and center. It also has a very deep notch slightly to the right of straightaway CF. But it's short in right. Also, the glass behind home plate deflects the prevailing southerly winds and redirects them as a "jet stream" straight out to right-center. So, left-handed hitters (and RH hitters who can go the other way) have a decided advantage in Arlington.

Compare that to the Cell, where the prevailing southwesterly winds help carry balls to left and left-center and benefit right-handed hitters.

Overall, Arlington isn't a tremendous HR park, but a ton of doubles are hit there.

So, because LHP generally fare better against LH hitters than RHP do, it's better to be a LHP at Arlington. Against LHP, teams will bat more RH hitters, who generally are disadvantaged by the dimensions of the park.

Therefore, as a lefty, Danks should have had more value to the Rangers than McCarthy, a flyball RHP.

Put another way, other than signing Nolan Ryan, when was the last time the Rangers made a wise decision on a pitcher?

gf2020
03-12-2008, 03:00 AM
Shocking that a proven workhorse like him would miss any games.

oeo
03-12-2008, 03:10 AM
Let's be fair here

Danks pitched in 26 games last year and had a 5.50 ERA
McCarthy pitched in 23 games last year and had a 4.87 ERA

Danks is only two years younger than McCarthy

McCarthy is supposed to be back in early May.

Let's be realistic here, Danks is currently no better than McCarthy.
I'm not saying he won't be, but he's not an overwhelming upgrade as of yet.

You forgot to add that Danks was supposed to start the year in AAA last year. Why do people forget that? He was a year away last year; it was Floyd that was supposed to step into the rotation.

Also, McCarthy had several injury problems last year. He may be back in May, but for how long?

veeter
03-12-2008, 08:15 AM
I loved McCarthy too, but I always felt that skinny frame would be a problem.

rdivaldi
03-12-2008, 09:20 AM
Where is Rasner now and how has he been doing? What's the general prognosis for him?

He got hit around pretty hard in low A, basically he's a one pitch pitcher at this point with a "projectible" arm.

RedHeadPaleHoser
03-12-2008, 10:11 AM
Wasn't Brandon compared to Mark Prior while he was coming up? That comparison appears to be dead on.

Except that McCarthy isn't blaming the media, the fans, the Ugly Duckling fan signing as the reasons he's injured.

Thigpen "57"
03-12-2008, 10:45 AM
Let's be realistic here, Danks is currently no better than McCarthy.
I'm not saying he won't be, but he's not an overwhelming upgrade as of yet.

While statistically this may be true, I think a majority of the people on this board feel Danks showed quite a bit of talent, composure and promise last year. It has been shown that his inflated stats came in the second half, coninciding with a higher inning total than he was used to, as well as a weak offense that could have provided some more W's in the win column earlier in the year.

Myself, like many, were also impressed with McCarthy when he spot started for us, and many of us were disappointed when he was traded. Fact is, we never got to see a full season of Brandon starting with the Sox, and so far with the Rangers he has had injury issues.

In hindsight (always 20/20), it seems to be a good trade. I would rather have a healthy Danks than an injured McCarthy. Let us not forget Massett, who also has shone bright spots, but still had atrocious numbers last year (just like when McCarthy was in the pen). We will see soon enough if Massett will be a bust or not.

doublem23
03-12-2008, 11:09 AM
Wasn't Brandon compared to Mark Prior while he was coming up?

I don't know who would actually make that comparison, since healthy Mark Prior >>>>>>>>>>>>> Healthy Bradnon McCarthy.

rdivaldi
03-12-2008, 11:15 AM
I don't know who would actually make that comparison, since healthy Mark Prior >>>>>>>>>>>>> Healthy Bradnon McCarthy.

Well, they actually became good friends in the minors so they were mentioned together quite often. BMac's talent ceiling is/was viewed as extremely high due to his skinny frame.

getonbckthr
03-12-2008, 11:16 AM
All I know is that he has killed me the last two years in a keeper league I have going, oh well...
If he's hurting you in your fantasy league then I have a feeling alot of things are hurting your team.

cbrownson13
03-12-2008, 11:20 AM
Put another way, other than signing Nolan Ryan, when was the last time the Rangers made a wise decision on a pitcher?


Vincente Padilla and Chan Ho Park.

tebman
03-12-2008, 12:00 PM
Shocking that a proven workhorse like him would miss any games.

:rolling:

BainesHOF
03-12-2008, 12:06 PM
I'm sure what Williams saw in McCarthy was a pitcher who had to be "on" in order to have success. A pitcher is only "on" in about a quarter of his starts. The good pitchers often get it done even when they have so-so stuff in half of their starts. When McCarthy was "on," he pitched beautifully. But when he had so-so stuff, he got hit hard. He had to be too almost perfect with his pitches to pitch well, and that was not a good formula for consistent success over the long haul.

I don't believe Danks has the stuff to be a consistent winner. The trade will probably wind up being close to a wash.

veeter
03-12-2008, 12:26 PM
I'm sure what Williams saw in McCarthy was a pitcher who had to be "on" in order to have success. A pitcher is only "on" in about a quarter of his starts. The good pitchers often get it done even when they have so-so stuff in half of their starts. When McCarthy was "on," he pitched beautifully. But when he had so-so stuff, he got hit hard. He had to be too almost perfect with his pitches to pitch well, and that was not a good formula for consistent success over the long haul.

I don't believe Danks has the stuff to be a consistent winner. The trade will probably wind up being close to a wash.Oh man, I think your way wrong on Danks. At least I hope you are. I did just watch a game from Sept. 5th of '05. It was that make-up game in Boston. McCarthy was awesome. In fact he was huge in a couple of spot starts in that glorious season. I wish him the best.

rdivaldi
03-12-2008, 01:09 PM
I don't believe Danks has the stuff to be a consistent winner.

I think that would be better put if you had said, "I don't believe Danks has the consistency to be a consistent winner." Danks has great "stuff", but he has to throw more strikes consistently.

BainesHOF
03-12-2008, 01:47 PM
I think that would be better put if you had said, "I don't believe Danks has the consistency to be a consistent winner." Danks has great "stuff", but he has to throw more strikes consistently.

I understand the difference you're trying to make, but I really don't believe he has good enough stuff. To me, he doesn't have enough pitches, and he's not consistent enough in the one or two pitches that he does throw.

Floyd, on the other hand, does have good stuff. It's more mental with him, and I think he might turn the corner in that regard this season and have a good year.

oeo
03-12-2008, 02:17 PM
I understand the difference you're trying to make, but I really don't believe he has good enough stuff. To me, he doesn't have enough pitches, and he's not consistent enough in the one or two pitches that he does throw.

One or two? A fastball that has been touching mid-90s this spring, an excellent change, very good curve ball (when he can actually get it over), and he just added a cutter which from all reports looks good.

:scratch:

Tragg
03-12-2008, 05:19 PM
Well, they actually became good friends in the minors so they were mentioned together quite often. Fingernails on a blackboard's talent ceiling is/was viewed as extremely high due to his skinny frame.
Brandon kind of reminded me of McDowell. Skinny, lots of elbow in the motion.
I liked McCarthy a lot (swayed, perhaps overly so, by that key labor day gem at Boston), but right now, Danks looks really, really good.

munchman33
03-12-2008, 07:33 PM
Not that I dislike Danks, but he did fall apart at the end of the year. And in the end, McCarthy had a better year than him.

Given how terrible Masset has been, I don't see how anyone can say we are "winning" that trade. Best case scenerio right now, it's a push.

munchman33
03-12-2008, 07:35 PM
I understand the difference you're trying to make, but I really don't believe he has good enough stuff. To me, he doesn't have enough pitches, and he's not consistent enough in the one or two pitches that he does throw.

Floyd, on the other hand, does have good stuff. It's more mental with him, and I think he might turn the corner in that regard this season and have a good year.

If I had to chose, I'd chose Danks "stuff" over Gavins. Unless you mean Gavin three years ago. Right now, no way.

No mental problem is going to cause Gavin to lose all that break in his curveball. He doesn't have the same arm anymore. He might be a headcase, but locating his pitches isn't going to make them what they were.

champagne030
03-12-2008, 07:59 PM
While statistically this may be true, I think a majority of the people on this board feel Danks showed quite a bit of talent, composure and promise last year. It has been shown that his inflated stats came in the second half, coninciding with a higher inning total than he was used to, as well as a weak offense that could have provided some more W's in the win column earlier in the year.


I think Danks has a bright future, but I also like Brandon's future. John's season didn't start to go down the tubes in the second half or because he got tired. It went sour after his 5/22 start.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/box/2007/players/dankj001_p.shtml

oeo
03-12-2008, 08:08 PM
Not that I dislike Danks, but he did fall apart at the end of the year. And in the end, McCarthy had a better year than him.

McCarthy was in and out all year long. How is that any different than Danks wearing down?

rdivaldi
03-12-2008, 09:38 PM
Brandon kind of reminded me of McDowell. Skinny, lots of elbow in the motion.

And about 99.9% of scouts would have agreed with you. Not only the frame and motion, but also the way they attack hitters and not issue a lot of free passes.

slavko
03-12-2008, 09:39 PM
I don't know who would actually make that comparison, since healthy Mark Prior >>>>>>>>>>>>> Healthy Bradnon McCarthy.

I made the comparison a while back, because both have the wingy throwing motion that spells "frequently injured."

munchman33
03-12-2008, 10:00 PM
McCarthy was in and out all year long. How is that any different than Danks wearing down?

It isn't. That's why I said "push."

Thigpen "57"
03-12-2008, 10:39 PM
I think Danks has a bright future, but I also like Brandon's future. John's season didn't start to go down the tubes in the second half or because he got tired. It went sour after his 5/22 start.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/box/2007/players/dankj001_p.shtml

That is a pretty cool link. In my opinion though, looking at those stats, I would place the "downhill" a little over a month later on July 5th. Between 5/22 and 7/5 he had some low inning/high pitch games, a bumpy stretch with some low run games mixed in. Problem was his high pitch counts. After that 7/5 game though it looks as though the rest were high run-low inning affairs except for about 3 of those starts.

He kept his ERA in the mid 4's until about the middle of July. Would have been nice if he kept it there the whole season, but that was consistent with his year up to that point. After that he added almost a full run to his season total.

So minus the second half, he put up decent numbers for a young rookie pitcher in the 5 slot who should have probably been in AAA for the season. Then again, we needed someone to fill McCarthy's slot in the rotation. :smile:

BainesHOF
03-13-2008, 05:05 PM
Ozzie switching Floyd to the No. 3 spot and demoting Danks to No. 5 confirms what I've been seeing from the two.

I wish he had a journeyman veteran in the No. 5 slot who could go .500. I'm afraid Danks will be the new Danny Wright in the fifth spot. We need wins from everyone in our rotation in order to have a longshot crack at making the playoffs.

LoveYourSuit
03-13-2008, 09:09 PM
One or two? A fastball that has been touching mid-90s this spring, an excellent change, very good curve ball (when he can actually get it over), and he just added a cutter which from all reports looks good.

:scratch:


Not sure I agree there.

Danks was a 1 1/2 pitch pitcher last year, OK fastball and very average curve ball. I did not see anything remotely close to being a ML changeup.

Honestly, Danks last year was exactly what Neal Cotts would have been had the Sox tried him out as a starter.

Now this spring, things can be different. I haven't seen enough video of Danks so far nor have I attended any Spring games to confirm this. I think Danks is in development of a cutter right now to substitute his missing change, many LH pitchers go this route.

I think Ozzie made a very solid choice of putting this kid back at #5 since everyone pretty much knows his arm is still not ready for 200 innings. It's make or break time for Gavin, he is seasoned enough to hold the 200 inning load.

goon
03-13-2008, 09:17 PM
Not sure I agree there.

Danks was a 1 1/2 pitch pitcher last year, OK fastball and very average curve ball. I did not see anything remotely close to being a ML changeup.

Honestly, Danks last year was exactly what Neal Cotts would have been had the Sox tried him out as a starter.

Now this spring, things can be different. I haven't seen enough video of Danks so far nor have I attended any Spring games to confirm this. I think Danks is in development of a cutter right now to substitute his missing change, many LH pitchers go this route.

I think Ozzie made a very solid choice of putting this kid back at #5 since everyone pretty much knows his arm is still not ready for 200 innings. It's make or break time for Gavin, he is seasoned enough to hold the 200 inning load.

He struck out more batters with his changeup last season than he did with his curveball.

LoveYourSuit
03-13-2008, 09:41 PM
He struck out more batters with his changeup last season than he did with his curveball.


I don't recall a single change up last year which left me saying "Oh my God Johan."

He got beat last year with more hanging change-ups than I recall him getting Ks with.

cws05champ
03-13-2008, 09:44 PM
Not sure I agree there.

Danks was a 1 1/2 pitch pitcher last year, OK fastball and very average curve ball. I did not see anything remotely close to being a ML changeup.

Honestly, Danks last year was exactly what Neal Cotts would have been had the Sox tried him out as a starter.

Now this spring, things can be different. I haven't seen enough video of Danks so far nor have I attended any Spring games to confirm this. I think Danks is in development of a cutter right now to substitute his missing change, many LH pitchers go this route.

I think Ozzie made a very solid choice of putting this kid back at #5 since everyone pretty much knows his arm is still not ready for 200 innings. It's make or break time for Gavin, he is seasoned enough to hold the 200 inning load.
Danks had a decent change last year, however he needed to improve his arm action and mechanics with it. He started to telegraph his change, and he could not locate it. Hitters started to learn to lay off the change and sit on his FB since his curve was not hitting location consistently as well. He has a good change, but just needs to command it better for it to be effective. Danks is still very young and has adjusted to every level he has been at. The biggest jump is going to the majors, so give him some time to develop and adjust.

santo=dorf
03-14-2008, 12:17 AM
Comparing ERAs between US Cellular Launching Pad and the Graveyard at Arlington is difficult at best. A 5.50 at the Cell is considerably smaller if Danks is pitching for Texas.
Ohhh, so that's why historically Texas hitters like Soriano, Young and Blalock have put up significantly better numbers at Texas than the road.

Ballpark factor rank for Texas since 2001: (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor?season=2001)
15, 5, 5, 2, 6, 5, 18.

Clearly you can see the trend of where the ballpark typically ranks. It is anything but a "graveyard." McCarthy had a better ERA+ (which accounts for ballpark factors) than Danks anyways last season.

rdivaldi
03-14-2008, 09:20 AM
I don't recall a single change up last year which left me saying "Oh my God Johan."

Well if you're going to set the bar that high, you may as well throw out every pitcher in baseball sans Trevor Hoffman. Let's not compare the kid to the best starting pitcher in baseball and call him "Danny Wright" because of it.

rookieroy
03-14-2008, 02:23 PM
Ozzie switching Floyd to the No. 3 spot and demoting Danks to No. 5 confirms what I've been seeing from the two.

I wish he had a journeyman veteran in the No. 5 slot who could go .500. I'm afraid Danks will be the new Danny Wright in the fifth spot. We need wins from everyone in our rotation in order to have a longshot crack at making the playoffs.

Thank goodness you're not a scout. The only reason Floyd would go up to the three slot is to prevent back to back lefty starters. It would also take a little pressure off Danks because most of you self proclaimed experts forget that Danks was a rookie last year. A 22 year old rookie by the way.

I'm way more concerned about Floyd than Danks right now. KW and Ozzie are saying that Floyd "just lacks confidence" and it's "all in his head". Oh really? Do you experts think that's important? Well, it is and Danks has much more of it than Floyd right now. Do you like stats? Let's take a look at those shall we?

Danks at 22 yrs old is 6-13 with a 5.50 ERA, 54 BB's and 109 SO in his first year.
Floyd at 25 yrs old is 8-10 with a 6.30 ERA, 83 BB's and 124 SO in 4 ML seasons.

Danks has a change up, just not a very good one that needs to improve. If he can throw a cutter successfully, that should help him with more ground ball outs to righty hitters and more broken bats.

Floyd just doesn't have the mental make up to be a major league pitcher. The Phillies just got tired of his lack of mental toughness. Pretty disappointing as he was the Phillies 1st round pick (4th overall) in 2001.

Take a look at Jon Garlands first year stats in 2000....much worse than Danny Wright's let alone John Danks. I hope I'm wrong with Gavin Floyd, but his past history has not been a very good indicator of future performance. It is way too early to write off Danks and to compare him to Danny Wright is a gross exagerration.

soxfan13
03-14-2008, 02:50 PM
Thank goodness you're not a scout. The only reason Floyd would go up to the three slot is to prevent back to back lefty starters. It would also take a little pressure off Danks because most of you self proclaimed experts forget that Danks was a rookie last year. A 22 year old rookie by the way.

I'm way more concerned about Floyd than Danks right now. KW and Ozzie are saying that Floyd "just lacks confidence" and it's "all in his head". Oh really? Do you experts think that's important? Well, it is and Danks has much more of it than Floyd right now. Do you like stats? Let's take a look at those shall we?

Danks at 22 yrs old is 6-13 with a 5.50 ERA, 54 BB's and 109 SO in his first year.
Floyd at 25 yrs old is 8-10 with a 6.30 ERA, 83 BB's and 124 SO in 4 ML seasons.

Danks has a change up, just not a very good one that needs to improve. If he can throw a cutter successfully, that should help him with more ground ball outs to righty hitters and more broken bats.

Floyd just doesn't have the mental make up to be a major league pitcher. The Phillies just got tired of his lack of mental toughness. Pretty disappointing as he was the Phillies 1st round pick (4th overall) in 2001.

Take a look at Jon Garlands first year stats in 2000....much worse than Danny Wright's let alone John Danks. I hope I'm wrong with Gavin Floyd, but his past history has not been a very good indicator of future performance. It is way too early to write off Danks and to compare him to Danny Wright is a gross exagerration.

People also seem to forget that Wright was 14-12 at the age of 24 and IIRC lots of fans/media thought he was going to be a very good pitcher. People just want to remember his implosion.

santo=dorf
03-14-2008, 04:07 PM
People also seem to forget that Wright was 14-12 at the age of 24 and IIRC lots of fans/media thought he was going to be a very good pitcher. People just want to remember his implosion.
So what? Can we please get out of the dark ages of using W-L records for each individual season to evaluate a pitcher?

He also had a 5.18 ERA and a 1.38 WHIP and received 5.44 runs per game. He had 5 games where the offense scored 8 runs, 2 games where they scored 9, 3 when they scored 10, and 1 where they scored 13.

spiffie
03-14-2008, 05:05 PM
So what? Can we please get out of the dark ages of using W-L records for each individual season to evaluate a pitcher?

He also had a 5.18 ERA and a 1.38 WHIP and received 5.44 runs per game. He had 5 games where the offense scored 8 runs, 2 games where they scored 9, 3 when they scored 10, and 1 where they scored 13.
He was also very inconsistent though. His bad starts were abominations. He made 33 starts in 2002. 18 of them were quality starts. In those games he had an ERA of 2.46 and a WHIP of 1.06. He had another 5 starts where he went 6 or more innings and gave up just 4 earned runs. Even factoring those games into the equation he still puts up an ERA of 3.14 and a WHIP of 1.14 and went an average of over 6.2 innings per start. Problem is he had 10 starts where he just was not good. In those starts he went an average of just over 4 innings per start with an ERA of 12.75 and a WHIP of 2.28. Those 23 good starts showed he could have been a good pitcher, he was young and inconsistent at that age. Shame he never could harness it.