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Shoeless_Jim
03-08-2008, 11:14 AM
With Andy LaRoche's 10 week injury, the Dodgers need a third baseman, and Crede would be a good fit. Swisher hasn't set the world on fire as a lead off man so far, so how about Crede for Juan Pierre? I know people aren't Pierre fans but look at his stats.

Last Year: 162 games .293 AVG .331 OBP and 64 steals

I know people think Owens could match that but he is injury prone. and Pierre hasn't missed a game since 2002. Maybe the Dodgers could throw in a couple million towards his salary since he is being payed around 9 million for the next few years.

Craig Grebeck
03-08-2008, 11:18 AM
I'd rather have Lowry. Pierre is garbage.

The Thomenator
03-08-2008, 11:26 AM
I'd rather have Lowry. Pierre is garbage.

Imagine Jerry Owens with those numbers. Would you use "garbage" as an adjective to describe him?

I don't want Juan Pierre. His OBP is too low for my liking. But for the record, getting Noah Lowry would really piss me off.

sox1970
03-08-2008, 11:28 AM
I'll take my chances with Pierre's 200 hits a year. Ok, so his OBP may not be the best, but he may knock in some big runs too in the American League.

oeo
03-08-2008, 11:34 AM
I'll take my chances with Pierre's 200 hits a year. Ok, so his OBP may not be the best, but he may knock in some big runs too in the American League.

A leadoff hitter that cannot get on base, quite frankly, sucks.

Besides, Kenny has already put a minimum .350 OBP for his leadoff hitter, so I can't see him making a deal like this. Owens can do what Pierre does...hopefully he can do more, too. If a .330 OBP is the best he can do, then he shouldn't play.

Heffalump
03-08-2008, 11:35 AM
With Andy LaRoche's 10 week injury, the Dodgers need a third baseman, and Crede would be a good fit. Swisher hasn't set the world on fire as a lead off man so far, so how about Crede for Juan Pierre? I know people aren't Pierre fans but look at his stats.

Last Year: 162 games .293 AVG .331 OBP and 64 steals

I know people think Owens could match that but he is injury prone. and Pierre hasn't missed a game since 2002. Maybe the Dodgers could throw in a couple million towards his salary since he is being payed around 9 million for the next few years.


Please.....Just stop it.

sox1970
03-08-2008, 11:38 AM
A leadoff hitter that cannot get on base, quite frankly, sucks.

Besides, Kenny has already put a minimum .350 OBP for his leadoff hitter, so I can't see him making a deal like this. Owens can do what Pierre does...hopefully he can do more, too. If a .330 OBP is the best he can do, then he shouldn't play.

Owens is a huge question mark. At least with Pierre or Coco Crisp, you kinda know what you're going to get, and it isn't all that bad. I give Pierre credit- he goes out and plays every single game.

I guess Owens gets a shot to prove he belongs, and then Swisher will become Plan B.

Cabrera needs to stay in the 2-hole no matter what.

Craig Grebeck
03-08-2008, 11:38 AM
Imagine Jerry Owens with those numbers. Would you use "garbage" as an adjective to describe him?

I don't want Juan Pierre. His OBP is too low for my liking. But for the record, getting Noah Lowry would really piss me off.
Yeah that would still be garbage. I don't care if his name is Jerry Owens, Juan Pierre, Bob Loblaw, etc. Those numbers suck.

VenturaFan23
03-08-2008, 11:39 AM
23 more days.....:nuts:

Craig Grebeck
03-08-2008, 11:40 AM
Owens is a huge question mark. At least with Pierre or Coco Crisp, you kinda know what you're going to get, and it isn't all that bad. I give Pierre credit- he goes out and plays every single game.

I guess Owens gets a shot to prove he belongs, and then Swisher will become Plan B.

Cabrera needs to stay in the 2-hole no matter what.
You know that you're going to get below average production from Crisp and Pierre and pay them like all-stars. Woot!

Oh Carlos Quentin, please heal soon.

sox1970
03-08-2008, 11:40 AM
23 more days.....:nuts:

Yes, and expect a couple moves to be made in that time.

raven1
03-08-2008, 11:41 AM
A quick look at the Dodgers' roster shows Jason Schmidt & Esteban Loaiza as possible fair trade possibilities for Crede. The White Sox already have more than enough outfielders, adding Pierre doesn't do anything for them. Another veteran reliever in the mix would, even if he had some question marks.

DickAllen72
03-08-2008, 11:44 AM
Swisher hasn't set the world on fire as a lead off man so far, so how about Crede for Juan Pierre?
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooo! :o:

TomBradley72
03-08-2008, 11:52 AM
I'd take my chances on Owens, Anderson or even Coco Crisp and keeping Crede...vs. using him to get Pierre.

Is Pierre that much of an upgrade over what we currently have?

Craig Grebeck
03-08-2008, 11:56 AM
I'd take my chances on Owens, Anderson or even Coco Crisp and keeping Crede...vs. using him to get Pierre.

Is Pierre that much of an upgrade over what we currently have?
Pierre is a downgrade from what we have - and I'm a proponent of Owens being a 4th OF.

sox1970
03-08-2008, 12:03 PM
I'd take my chances on Owens, Anderson or even Coco Crisp and keeping Crede...vs. using him to get Pierre.

Is Pierre that much of an upgrade over what we currently have?

Brian Anderson sucks.

Jerry Owens--unknown and old for a rookie.

Juan Pierre--Proven major league hitter. Durable. Reliable. Chance to go to the Hall of Fame if he stays healthy in his 30's.

Craig Grebeck
03-08-2008, 12:08 PM
Brian Anderson sucks.

Jerry Owens--unknown and old for a rookie.

Juan Pierre--Proven major league hitter. Durable. Reliable. Chance to go to the Hall of Fame if he stays healthy in his 30's.
If Juan Pierre makes it to the hall of fame I will never watch baseball again.

What can he do that our guys can't? What can he do that Carlos Quentin can't?

He is durable. He is reliable. I can rely on him to suck and lead the league in outs every year.

If he is so good, why does he always lead the league in outs?*

*Not always, 2 out of the last 4 years and near the top every single season.

munchman33
03-08-2008, 12:10 PM
I'd rather have Furcal and shift him to second base.

Craig Grebeck
03-08-2008, 12:14 PM
I'd rather have Furcal and shift him to second base.
If that were to happen Cabrera would be the one to move over, IMO.

Jjav829
03-08-2008, 12:17 PM
Juan Pierre--Proven major league hitter. Durable. Reliable. Chance to go to the Hall of Fame if he stays healthy in his 30's.

:o: :o: :o: :o: :o: :o:

Do you really think Juan freaking Pierre is a Hall of Famer? :thud:

voodoochile
03-08-2008, 12:21 PM
Interesting question:

Difference between .350 OBP and .330 OBP is reaching base 12-13 extra times per season (600-660 PA). For the record, .380 OBP means reaching base 30-33 extra times per season over the .330 guy (every 10 points of OBP is about 6.5 times reaching base per season for a full time player).

Is it more valuable to have a guy with the .350 OBP who steals 20 bases or a guy with the lower OBP who steals 50 bases?

I think the .380 guy is clearly more valuable, but what about the lower numbers?

Craig Grebeck
03-08-2008, 12:23 PM
Interesting question:

Difference between .350 OBP and .330 OBP is reaching base 12-13 extra times per season (600-660 PA). For the record, .380 OBP means reaching base 30-33 extra times per season over the .330 guy (every 10 points of OBP is about 6.5 times reaching base per season for a full time player).

Is it more valuable to have a guy with the .350 OBP who steals 20 bases or a guy with the lower OBP who steals 50 bases?

I think the .380 guy is clearly more valuable, but what about the lower numbers?
Depends on success rate. With a rate as ****ty as Pierre's, I'll always take the higher OBP.

Higher OBP is more valuable unless the success rate is out of this world.

sox1970
03-08-2008, 12:26 PM
:o: :o: :o: :o: :o: :o:

Do you really think Juan freaking Pierre is a Hall of Famer? :thud:

Nah, I said it just to get a reaction.

But, he has averaged 196 hits for 7 years. If he averages 175 hits for another nine years, he'll have over 3000 hits, with probably 750 SBs.

Not likely to happen, but you never know.

Craig Grebeck
03-08-2008, 12:27 PM
Nah, I said it just to get a reaction.

But, he has averaged 196 hits for 7 years. If he average 175 hits for another nine year, he'll have over 3000 hits, with probably 750 SBs.

Not likely to happen, but you never know.
No, we do know. He won't make it.

Having a runner on second base is obviously better than having a runner on first, but the gap is not enormous. A team with a runner on second and no one out will score about a quarter of a run more on average than a team with a runner on first and no one out, according to Baseball Prospectus, a Web site and scouting guide. So stealing second with no outs is worth about 0.25 runs.
Being thrown out - then having nobody on base with one out - reduces the number of runs a team can expect to score by 0.64. The out is more than two and a half times as bad as the steal is good. So to break even, a team needs to steal almost three bases for every one time it is caught. The caution of today's managers starts to look smart.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/08/sports/baseball/08score.html

voodoochile
03-08-2008, 12:33 PM
Depends on success rate. With a rate as ****ty as Pierre's, I'll always take the higher OBP.

Higher OBP is more valuable unless the success rate is out of this world.

Ah, more stats to examine...

A guy with a .350 OBP who steals 20 bases at a 90% rate of success. This equals 2 outs from stealing bases.

Or

A guy with a .330 OBP who steals 50 bases at a 70% rate of success. This equals 21 outs from stealing bases.

The second guy would steal second base after leading off the game roughly 11 times (assuming at least one or two of them would be after doubling to lead off the game) and would run into 5 outs under the same conditions.

This model is going to become tough to configure with any degree of success, so for now I'd say, it's a mystery...

:hawk
"Don't tell me how many you steal. Tell me when you steal them."

guillen4life13
03-08-2008, 01:09 PM
NOOOOO!

I'd rather make a more concerted push for a guy like Schmidt or Loaiza. I know its far fetched (somewhat0, but those two decent pitchers. I wouldn't expect ace production but if they're healthy they're good starting pitchers.

BRDSR
03-08-2008, 01:29 PM
Bob Loblaw

Fantastic Arrested Development reference. Have you ever googled Bob Loblaw's Law Blog? Unfortunately, it doesn't exist. I sort of want to get in touch with someone and check out whether there would be a copyright problem if I made it.

As far as Juan Pierre for Crede, it would take some (but not a ton) of sweetening for me to take that deal. A few million of his salary or a second-tier pitching prospect would probably do it. I honestly think Crede's best years area already behind him. Trade him now before anybody knows.

oeo
03-08-2008, 01:34 PM
NOOOOO!

I'd rather make a more concerted push for a guy like Schmidt or Loaiza. I know its far fetched (somewhat0, but those two decent pitchers. I wouldn't expect ace production but if they're healthy they're good starting pitchers.

1. Schmidt can't stay healthy.
2. Loaiza has run his course here. I don't want the guy back. After being traded in 2004, he said he was excited to win more games with actual run support. What a joke...if he wasn't so ****ty, he might have won more games. Loaiza got a big ego awfully fast, and then fell off the map again. Pass.

Tragg
03-08-2008, 01:43 PM
Gracious we don't need another outfielder.
Juan Pierre? In the Hall of Fame? Man oh man. He's a swing at everything hitter with no power. The last three years. his obp has been around around .330 - that's awful. Owens will deliver that (which is the problem with Owens). He's had ONE OPS+ above 100 in his career.


Take a prospect for Crede if we can't find a ML player that we NEED and who is a plus player.
And if the Dodgers or Giants are really hurtin for a 3rd baseman, that's good for us...they cede to our demands, not vice versa.

Rockabilly
03-08-2008, 01:43 PM
I would love to get Broxton from the Dodgers. Not to sure if Crede is enough to steal him away from LA

WhiteSox5187
03-08-2008, 01:45 PM
In a word, no.

Jjav829
03-08-2008, 01:48 PM
I would love to get Broxton from the Dodgers. Not to sure if Crede is enough to steal him away from LA

Not a chance. It would take a hell of a lot more than Crede. We're not getting Broxton. End of story.

TomBradley72
03-08-2008, 01:55 PM
Juan Pierre--Proven major league hitter. Durable. Reliable. Chance to go to the Hall of Fame if he stays healthy in his 30's.

A horrible OBP, and one of the weakest arms of any regular CF.

As far as the Hall of Fame:

:bong:

BRDSR
03-08-2008, 02:01 PM
Take a prospect for Crede if we can't find a ML player that we NEED and who is a plus player.


I'm continually amazed at how concerned this fanbase is with stockpiling prospects but how unconcered it is with stockpiling proven major league talent.

This is why I would trade Crede for Juan Pierre: If Crede is on the White Sox, he will start at third base. If he starts at third base, Fields (hopefully) is in the minors. This all seems fine, I suppose, unless you're of the opinion (as I am) that Fields will actually produce better at the big league level than Joe will this season. I think Joe's back injury has his best days behind him. He has mustered a .125 average so far this spring (to be fair, so has Fields) and has committed at least two very uncharacteristic errors at third. I'm certainly willing to consider that the performance at the plate is not indicative of his future abilities, but his errors in the field look like the errors of someone whose back is not 100%. Not enough torque on the throw, and he was lazy getting down on a ground ball...it literally went right under his glove.

Fields has more power than Joe will ever have, and I'd be willing to bet that 1,000 at bats into his major league career, he'll be batting at a .280 clip. He also takes more walks than Joe, so a slightly less batting average will be made up for in OBP.

I like Joe...Probably in my top 20 as far as favorite White Sox players of my lifetime. But with his injury history and a very capable man to take his place, there is absolutely no reason for him to be on the Opening Day roster. The White Sox should take the best deal they can get for him and be excited about it. And with the holes this team has at the major league level the best deal they can get better not be prospects.

Domeshot17
03-08-2008, 02:13 PM
Does no one realize they also have Nomar. Nomar will be a fine replacement for 10 weeks.

Craig Grebeck
03-08-2008, 02:18 PM
Does no one realize they also have Nomar. Nomar will be a fine replacement for 10 weeks.
Nomar got hurt yesterday and is day to day. He is also made of glass.

Just because Pierre is in the majors does not mean he is proven major league talent. He has proven that he is well below average, is overpaid, and does not in any way fill a position of need on this roster.

soxinem1
03-08-2008, 02:23 PM
Brian Anderson sucks.

Jerry Owens--unknown and old for a rookie.

Juan Pierre--Proven major league hitter. Durable. Reliable. Chance to go to the Hall of Fame if he stays healthy in his 30's.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/programmes/images/psycho_105x250.jpg

LoveYourSuit
03-08-2008, 02:25 PM
I don't see how Pierre can be considered garbage. 200 hits per season, 162 games and healthy every year, 60 sbs has to be worth a bit more than a blanket label of "garbage."

He is not a hall of famer, as someone earlier suggested, but he is not a bad piece of a puzzle for team trying to call themselves a "contender."


He is not Ivan Dejesus as some of you guys suggest he is.

BRDSR
03-08-2008, 02:27 PM
Just because Pierre is in the majors does not mean he is proven major league talent. He has proven that he is well below average, is overpaid, and does not in any way fill a position of need on this roster.

Well, I laughed out loud. Anyone who thinks that someone with a career batting average of over .300 ,who has stolen 45 or more bases for seven consecutive seasons, and who has not missed a single game in the past five is not proven major league talent is delusional.

He might be overpaid. That's why I would want a sweetener. But "proven major league talent" does not equal "future hall of famer" (which of course Pierre is not). Seriously, who is the least talented centerfielder that qualifies as posessing "proven major league talent?" Jim Edmonds?

SoxNation05
03-08-2008, 02:35 PM
Brian Anderson sucks.

Jerry Owens--unknown and old for a rookie.

Juan Pierre--Proven major league hitter. Durable. Reliable. Chance to go to the Hall of Fame if he stays healthy in his 30's.
I don't necessarily have a strong opinion for or against Pierre but I don't want to aquire him because Owens isn't much worse and I am really looking forward to see Carlos Quentin play. If this deal happens it would be terrible because we traded what would be our top prospect at the moment in Chris Carter for Quentin who we no aren't even using. I think Quentin will be an upside for our team this year and for years to come. I don't think he is a player who will benefit from staying on the bench. I think Crede should be traded for a SP and or prospects. I do not want the the Sox to trade for another relief pitcher because we already have servicable relievesrs battling for spots. I know everybody hates MacDougal but I think he will bounce back whether it be this year or next year.

jabrch
03-08-2008, 02:44 PM
Well, I laughed out loud. Anyone who thinks that someone with a career batting average of over .300 ,who has stolen 45 or more bases for seven consecutive seasons, and who has not missed a single game in the past five is not proven major league talent is delusional.


There are liars, damned liars and statisticians....anyone who thinks that they can use Pierre's numbers to prove he is anything other than a proven effective MLB hitter is not looking at reality. He may not be a GREAT player, but he is certainly a proven commodity. He can hit the ball - which is important. A career. 290+ batting average is very valuable - even if he doesn't walk a ton. I'm not saying he's worth the contract he got, but if we could trade Crede for him and get the Dodgers to pick up a big piece of that contract it would be a pretty good move for us.

rdivaldi
03-08-2008, 02:55 PM
If Juan Pierre makes it to the hall of fame I will never watch baseball again.

If he gets 3000 hits it will be hard to keep him out, even if the more baseball savvy know the truth behind the numbers.

Flight #24
03-08-2008, 02:57 PM
I don't think the original posters sentiment that Owens is similar to Pierre is that far off, but Owens also has more upside. And he's dirt cheap v 9m or if they throw in cash, maybe what 7? And losing crede? Crede+7m+Owens >>>Pierre thank you very much.

LoveYourSuit
03-08-2008, 02:58 PM
also need to consider the fact that Crede's trade stock is no where what Sox fans thing it is.

Pierre and his fat salary for a broken down rehabbing Crede is more than fair to me....... and maybe this will relieve the team from the stress of not know who will be 3rd (as the captain Paulie is concerned about).

Also to consider, Pierre has never played for a line-up with mashers in the 3-4-5-6-7 holes as we will throw out there next year. This will create plenty of more run scoring opportunite for him and the rest of the team. And he has not played in the AL where at least he won't be hitting behind a hitter as bad as a NL pitcher (unless Uribe starts for us this year).

Domeshot17
03-08-2008, 03:01 PM
I don't think the original posters sentiment that Owens is similar to Pierre is that far off, but Owens also has more upside. And he's dirt cheap v 9m or if they throw in cash, maybe what 7? And losing crede? Crede+7m+Owens >>>Pierre thank you very much.

I agree with everything but Owens has more upside? Owens upside IS currently what Pierre is, if that. Owens may never hit .280 let alone .290 or .300, but lets reach big here and say hes got .290 potential. Owens does not walk either, so he is a sub .340 OBP. He has great speed, so 60 stolen bases is reachable. He doesn't bunt for a hit neaarrrrlllly as good as pierre. Neither are anything to write home about in the outfield, and both have weak arms, albeit owens noodle is slightly stronger then pierre's.

Salary considered Owens > Pierre I guess, but Owens will be lucky to ever be anything close to Pierre, and Im not a big fan of his to begin with.

The Immigrant
03-08-2008, 03:09 PM
I agree with everything but Owens has more upside? Owens upside IS currently what Pierre is, if that. Owens may never hit .280 let alone .290 or .300, but lets reach big here and say hes got .290 potential. Owens does not walk either, so he is a sub .340 OBP. He has great speed, so 60 stolen bases is reachable. He doesn't bunt for a hit neaarrrrlllly as good as pierre. Neither are anything to write home about in the outfield, and both have weak arms, albeit owens noodle is slightly stronger then pierre's.

Salary considered Owens > Pierre I guess, but Owens will be lucky to ever be anything close to Pierre, and Im not a big fan of his to begin with.

Finally a rational post in this thread.

TheOldRoman
03-08-2008, 03:12 PM
Pierre is not a bad player, but he is far from a good one. He would make absolutely no sense for the Sox. Owens won't get as many hits, but he will put up a similar or higher OBP, and he has a greater upside. There is no reason at all for the Sox to acquire him.

In my eyes, he would only make sense for a team that 1) has a glaring hole in LF to the point that Jeff Leifer is being considered, 2) is very competitive in their division, 3) doesn't have a Jerry Owens or any prospect who could play half-way respectable ball for one year, or has a prospect who needs another year in the minors, 4) between CF, SS, and 2B has one power hitter and one lead-off man, and 5) signs him to a one year contract to play LF.

So, to summarize - Juan Pierre playing left field, batting ninth, on a one year deal for $2-3 million for a competing team that desperately needs stability at the bottom of the lineup and has power and a lead-off man coming from other positions - great. Juan Pierre on the Sox, for 4 more years and $36.5 million, batting lead-off, playing CF, and blocking Owens AND Quentin - not great.

TheOldRoman
03-08-2008, 03:20 PM
I agree with everything but Owens has more upside? Owens upside IS currently what Pierre is, if that. Owens may never hit .280 let alone .290 or .300, but lets reach big here and say hes got .290 potential. Owens does not walk either, so he is a sub .340 OBP. He has great speed, so 60 stolen bases is reachable. He doesn't bunt for a hit neaarrrrlllly as good as pierre. Neither are anything to write home about in the outfield, and both have weak arms, albeit owens noodle is slightly stronger then pierre's.

Salary considered Owens > Pierre I guess, but Owens will be lucky to ever be anything close to Pierre, and Im not a big fan of his to begin with.I see no reason why Owens can't be as good or better than Pierre this year if both were healthy and played the full season. In his rookie year, Owens put up an OBP nearly as high as Pierre's. Owens might not be Ricky Henderson, but he will always take more walks than Pierre. I am not touting Owens and the next great lead off hitter, but I honestly think that even without a "breakout year", he will put up a similar or higher OBP with less hits.

Frater Perdurabo
03-08-2008, 04:26 PM
If the Dodgers offered me Pierre for Crede, given the current circumstances I would accept the deal in a heartbeat.

Why?

Crede is coming off the back injury and will be a free agent.

Pierre is among the better and most consistent leadoff hitters in MLB.

Pierre is the ceiling of what Owens could become. But there's no guarantee that Owens will reach that ceiling, and moreover this spring Owens has had trouble shaking a nagging leg injury. That's not a good sign for a guy whose whole game is based on speed.

Pierre has zero injury history. None.

Also, addressing another concern, Pierre leads the league in outs because he plays so many games and leads off every single one!

A lineup of Pierre (CF), Cabrera, Thome, PK, JD, Swish (LF), Fields, AJ, 2B of your choice would produce a hell of a lot of runs in a hell of a lot of different ways.

Remember how great the Sox offense clicked with a healthy Pods setting the table? Well, Pierre > Pods.

munchman33
03-08-2008, 05:05 PM
I don't think Pierre is a great player. Or even a very good player. He's an average player, and should be a starter.

At his salary, I generally wouldn't want him on our team. However....

He would most certainly be the best leadoff candadite we had. I can't imagine how anyone could argue with that. We have no leadoff hitter on our team. Saying we absolutely couldn't use him or don't need him is like saying that a leadoff hitter isn't important.

And can we please stop with the Jerry Owens comparisons. The only thing the two have in common is speed. Jerry hasn't proven he can hit near .300, be a productive leadoff hitter, bunt, or even hit left-handed pitching decent enough. Why people assume he'll become Juan Pierre this year is beyond me. He's much more likely not to become that good. He's already pretty darn old. I sware, most of the anti-Pierre sentiment is because people around here unfairly equate his skill set with Jerry Owens.

santo=dorf
03-08-2008, 06:03 PM
Interesting question:

Difference between .350 OBP and .330 OBP is reaching base 12-13 extra times per season (600-660 PA). For the record, .380 OBP means reaching base 30-33 extra times per season over the .330 guy (every 10 points of OBP is about 6.5 times reaching base per season for a full time player).

Is it more valuable to have a guy with the .350 OBP who steals 20 bases or a guy with the lower OBP who steals 50 bases?

I think the .380 guy is clearly more valuable, but what about the lower numbers?
It's more than that. The guy who has the higher OBP makes fewer outs as well. Over 700 PA's that's 14 more times on base AND almost five full innings of not making an out which extends the inning for your big boppers. That's a huge plus for a leadoff hitter.

voodoochile
03-08-2008, 07:01 PM
It's more than that. The guy who has the higher OBP makes fewer outs as well. Over 700 PA's that's 14 more times on base AND almost five full innings of not making an out which extends the inning for your big boppers. That's a huge plus for a leadoff hitter.

That's roughly one extra time reaching base every two weeks. I'm sorry, seems questionable to say that's going to make that big of a difference over the course of the season.

sullythered
03-08-2008, 07:40 PM
I don't think Pierre is a great player. Or even a very good player. He's an average player, and should be a starter.

At his salary, I generally wouldn't want him on our team. However....

He would most certainly be the best leadoff candadite we had. I can't imagine how anyone could argue with that. We have no leadoff hitter on our team. Saying we absolutely couldn't use him or don't need him is like saying that a leadoff hitter isn't important.

And can we please stop with the Jerry Owens comparisons. The only thing the two have in common is speed. Jerry hasn't proven he can hit near .300, be a productive leadoff hitter, bunt, or even hit left-handed pitching decent enough. Why people assume he'll become Juan Pierre this year is beyond me. He's much more likely not to become that good. He's already pretty darn old. I sware, most of the anti-Pierre sentiment is because people around here unfairly equate his skill set with Jerry Owens.
Munch! I can't believe it! I actually agree with you on something this offseason!
:smile:

(I still wouldn't trade Joe, though.)

santo=dorf
03-08-2008, 07:48 PM
That's roughly one extra time reaching base every two weeks. I'm sorry, seems questionable to say that's going to make that big of a difference over the course of the season.
You completely missed my point of not making an out.

15 more times that guy is going to let Thome bat with 2 runners on (assuming they didn't score) with nobody out and 1 runner on (assuming he didn't score) with one out over 1 runner on with no outs (assuming the #2 guy didn't hit a homer) and nobody on with two outs.

It's a big difference.

voodoochile
03-08-2008, 07:55 PM
You completely missed my point of not making an out.

15 more times that guy is going to let Thome bat with 2 runners on (assuming they didn't score) with nobody out and 1 runner on (assuming he didn't score) with one out over 1 runner on with no outs (assuming the #2 guy didn't hit a homer) and nobody on with two outs.

It's a big difference.

Interesting concept, but it seems like the same information just with different words. You are also figuring that ALL extra 15 times it comes leading off the inning/game. Since in reality it's more like 7 times with no one out (including the leadoff 4), 4 times with 1 out and 4 times with 2 outs, the stats aren't quite as clearcut as you make them and again, it's 15 times a season.

The whole outs are precious routine is a bit extreme when taken down to this level.

santo=dorf
03-08-2008, 07:57 PM
Since 2005 is the benchmark fo judging everything around here, let's look at our leadoff man's OBP and the team record.

Pods 1st half: .369
Pods 2nd half: .329

White Sox 1st half: .663 WP%
White Sox 2nd half: .553 WP%

Now I'm not saying that's the only reason, but Pods' grindyness and basepaths skills are way over exaggerated on this board in particular. But since the discussion is about the leadoff man's OBP, it should be discussed.

Month by month Team Win %:
Ap: .708
May: .643
June: .720
July: .577
Aug: .429
Sep: .586

Pods' OBP:
Ap: .354
May: .383
June: .344
July: .360
Aug: .237
Sept: .386

So two questions: Just how important is the leadoff man's OBP to the team's success? How influential was Pods' OBP for the 2005 Sox?
By not making outs it gives the lineup more flexability to do things.

voodoochile
03-08-2008, 08:02 PM
Since 2005 is the benchmark fo judging everything around here, let's look at our leadoff man's OBP and the team record.

Pods 1st half: .369
Pods 2nd half: .329

White Sox 1st half: .663 WP%
White Sox 2nd half: .553 WP%

Now I'm not saying that's the only reason, but Pods' grindyness and basepaths skills are way over exaggerated on this board in particular. But since the discussion is about the leadoff man's OBP, it should be discussed.

Month by month Team Win %:
Ap: .708
May: .643
June: .720
July: .577
Aug: .429
Sep: .586

Pods' OBP:
Ap: .354
May: .383
June: .344
July: .360
Aug: .237
Sept: .386

So two questions: Just how important is the leadoff man's OBP to the team's success? How influential was Pods' OBP for the 2005 Sox?
By not making outs it gives the lineup more flexability to do things.

Looks damning because of August, but I'd like to counter by pointing out that in April and June when the Sox were having their best two months, Pods had his 2nd and 3rd worst months, so let's not go all BP and proclaim it a fact just yet...

Craig Grebeck
03-08-2008, 08:29 PM
I will deny to my death the idea that Juan Pierre is one of the game's better leadoff men. His best OBP the last three years is .331. If you want to pay a guy whose three year splits are G-A-R-B-A-G-E 8 million this season, 10 million the two thereafter and finally 8.5 million in 2011, fine by me, but that would be one of the worst moves imaginable. We'd be better off just DFAing Crede than acquiring Pierre for him.

Citing career stats is worthless; he hasn't been league average since 2004.

My favorite thing about Juan Pierre is despite his scrappy speedy bull**** he still grounds into a fair amount of double plays per season.

Why is he among the league leaders in outs produced every single year?

He has declined each of the last three seasons and people want to block Carlos Quentin for him?!

KenBerryGrab
03-08-2008, 08:36 PM
low OBP, no pop, bad reads on flyballs, no arm. sure, sign me up.

jabrch
03-08-2008, 09:08 PM
That's roughly one extra time reaching base every two weeks. I'm sorry, seems questionable to say that's going to make that big of a difference over the course of the season.

That's about 1-2 runs per month. You are right - it doesn't make a big difference at all.

WhiteSox5187
03-08-2008, 09:33 PM
Looks damning because of August, but I'd like to counter by pointing out that in April and June when the Sox were having their best two months, Pods had his 2nd and 3rd worst months, so let's not go all BP and proclaim it a fact just yet...
That's true but if you look bact on a month and say "Aw man, my OBP was only .354, that was bad" you're having a damn good year which of course Pods certainly did.

Frater Perdurabo
03-09-2008, 08:49 AM
Looks damning because of August, but I'd like to counter by pointing out that in April and June when the Sox were having their best two months, Pods had his 2nd and 3rd worst months, so let's not go all BP and proclaim it a fact just yet...

The other thing is that most of 2005, the Sox had Carl Everett as their DH and #3 hitter. Carl Everett! Thome > Everett.

But if Pierre's OBP is such a problem, how about batting him ninth and having Swisher - Mr. OBP - lead off?

Swisher, Cabrera, Thome, Paulie, JD, AJ, Fields, Uribe/Alexi/Richar, Pierre

Grzegorz
03-09-2008, 09:37 AM
Crede for Pierre:? No, that's the ultimate panic move.

cards press box
03-09-2008, 09:53 AM
Here's a question: as an offensive player, isn't Pierre comparable to Chone Figgins? Pierre is only one year older than Figgins and their career numbers are pretty similar. A lot of people (including Steve Stone a few months ago) speculated that ultimately the Angels would deal Figgins for Crede. Last year, Figgins had the superior batting average and on-base percentage but 2007 seems like an outlier compared to the rest of his career.

My question is this: if people favored a Crede for Figgins trade, why wouldn't those same folks support a Crede for Pierre trade? There are economic considerations but perhaps the Dodgers would pay some of Pierre's admitedly inflated salary (good job, Ned Colletti).

http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/pierrju01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/figgich01.shtml

Grzegorz
03-09-2008, 10:44 AM
My question is this: if people favored a Crede for Figgins trade, why wouldn't those same folks support a Crede for Pierre trade? There are economic considerations but perhaps the Dodgers would pay some of Pierre's admitedly inflated salary (good job, Ned Colletti).

It is my belief that the Chicago White Sox are trying to build to a crescendo in 2009/2010.

What does Juan Pierre give you one to two years down the road?

chaerulez
03-09-2008, 10:49 AM
I'll take my chances with Pierre's 200 hits a year. Ok, so his OBP may not be the best, but he may knock in some big runs too in the American League.

Do you think Pierre maybe gets 200 hits a year because he bats lead off every game and has close to 700 plate appearances a year? In contrast Adam Dunn has only reached 150 hits once in his career, and that was only 151. He has less chances to get hits a season because he bats third, fourth, or fifth in the lineup. Not to mention the 100 walks he draws a season. Pierre's OBP isn't awful, but it's not what you hope in a leadoff man. Grady Sizemore is a great example. Rickey Henderson is the greatest leadoff man of all time, he had great speed and a career OBP of .401. I wouldn't mind Pierre has an overall player if his talents in other tools were better. The average OBP could be acceptable if he was a great fielder. Or had at least somewhat of a power threat (like Uribe level at least). But what you have is basically an one maybe two tool player (which is what Jerry Owens projects to be), he only excels at stealing bases. He is a decent hitter, but has virtually no power, average fielder at best and below average arm. I would just like to put this myth to rest that Juan Pierre is some sort of All Star level player. Yes, you can win a World Series with him as a starter (it's already been done), but don't expect him to be one of the major reasons it happened.

cards press box
03-09-2008, 10:54 AM
It is my belief that the Chicago White Sox are trying to build to a crescendo in 2009/2010.

What does Juan Pierre give you one to two years down the road?

I see your point and I'm not sure what the Sox will do with Crede. I see possible merit with all of the following options: (a) keeping Crede, (b) dealing Crede for prospects, (c) dealing Crede for a lead-off man/outfielder or (d) dealing Crede for an upgrade in starting pitching.

I'm just asking whether people would favor a Crede for Figgins swap but not a Crede for Pierre swap? If so, why? Figgins and Pierre seem to be similar offensive players.

Craig Grebeck
03-09-2008, 11:32 AM
I see your point and I'm not sure what the Sox will do with Crede. I see possible merit with all of the following options: (a) keeping Crede, (b) dealing Crede for prospects, (c) dealing Crede for a lead-off man/outfielder or (d) dealing Crede for an upgrade in starting pitching.

I'm just asking whether people would favor a Crede for Figgins swap but not a Crede for Pierre swap? If so, why? Figgins and Pierre seem to be similar offensive players.
I'd say a lot of it is Figgins' versatility and the fact that he isn't signed to the worst contract in baseball.

I want neither.

asindc
03-09-2008, 11:33 AM
I don't think Pierre is a great player. Or even a very good player. He's an average player, and should be a starter.

At his salary, I generally wouldn't want him on our team. However....

He would most certainly be the best leadoff candadite we had. I can't imagine how anyone could argue with that. We have no leadoff hitter on our team. Saying we absolutely couldn't use him or don't need him is like saying that a leadoff hitter isn't important.

And can we please stop with the Jerry Owens comparisons. The only thing the two have in common is speed. Jerry hasn't proven he can hit near .300, be a productive leadoff hitter, bunt, or even hit left-handed pitching decent enough. Why people assume he'll become Juan Pierre this year is beyond me. He's much more likely not to become that good. He's already pretty darn old. I sware, most of the anti-Pierre sentiment is because people around here unfairly equate his skill set with Jerry Owens.

I can hardly believe it. Munchman and I agree on something!:smile:

TheOldRoman
03-09-2008, 01:20 PM
The other thing is that most of 2005, the Sox had Carl Everett as their DH and #3 hitter. Carl Everett! Thome > Everett.

But if Pierre's OBP is such a problem, how about batting him ninth and having Swisher - Mr. OBP - lead off?

Swisher, Cabrera, Thome, Paulie, JD, AJ, Fields, Uribe/Alexi/Richar, PierreSee my above post. Why in the world would you bother to acquire him if you don't plan on batting him lead-off? That is like getting him just for the hell of it. We already have guys on the roster who can give you much more in LF. I wouldn't mind having Pierre if we had a lead-off hitter, he was on a one year deal for under $4 million, was batting 9th and playing left, and we DIDN'T have Quentin and Owens. There is no reason he should even be taking playing time away from Owens, let alone Quentin. His only value is as a lead-off man, and he is mediocre at best at it.

He is awful in CF, has the worst arm in baseball, doesn't walk, and had no power. He can hit and run, but I don't want to give up anything talentwise and spend $36 million on a 2 tool player when we have someone on the roster who will be light years better than him defensively and offensively (Q), and one who will be at better defensively and at least as good as him in terms of OBP (Owens).

Rockabilly
03-09-2008, 03:02 PM
IMO Crede to LA for Proctor and James Mc Donald I think would be a fair deal for both sides

chisox77
03-09-2008, 09:27 PM
Can't remember if I posted in this thread yet.

Anyway, Crede for Pierre?

No.




:cool:

pierzynski07
03-09-2008, 09:50 PM
If he is so good, why does he always lead the league in outs?*

The 2007 NL MVP led the league in outs this year. :?:

Flight #24
03-09-2008, 09:55 PM
FWLIW, Owens began baseball much later than Pierre did due to starting out as a football player. That would explain how he's much older at this point in his career.

I'm not convinced Owens is the Sox best bet as CF. I'm pretty sure that Pierre in his slot wouldn't have me thinking that CF/leadoff were solved. Given the $$$ involved and the fact that you give up Crede, who I think will end up having some value, this would be a bad trade.

turners56
03-10-2008, 08:20 AM
If Juan Pierre makes it to the hall of fame I will never watch baseball again.

What can he do that our guys can't? What can he do that Carlos Quentin can't?

He is durable. He is reliable. I can rely on him to suck and lead the league in outs every year.

If he is so good, why does he always lead the league in outs?*

*Not always, 2 out of the last 4 years and near the top every single season.

He's one of the fastest players in the league and can actually run and steal bases while playing a decent defense (with no arm that is...). That's what Quentin doesn't have that Pierre does. Pierre is a decent lead-off hitter and no matter what you say is a better player than Owens...but his ridiculous contract makes this deal pretty much not worth it.

getonbckthr
03-16-2008, 03:04 PM
I'm starting to think we could get Juan Pierre for just about nothing. He won't start for LA and i'm sure they won't pay him all that money to sit on the bench. Pierre for Macdougal?

A. Cavatica
03-16-2008, 04:01 PM
I'm starting to think we could get Juan Pierre for just about nothing. He won't start for LA and i'm sure they won't pay him all that money to sit on the bench. Pierre for Macdougal?

Why would we pay him all that money to sit on the bench?

I'd rather have any of our five current outfielders than Pierre.