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Soxboyrob
08-02-2001, 08:54 AM
It's time to say it, much as it hurts....
Keep Royce.
Valentin moves to 2nd Base.
Durham traded for best offer, which would hopefully include a solid SS or 2nd Baseman prospect.

Royce was beyond horrible for the first 7 weeks of this season, but has since been our most consistent hitter. The guy gets a hit or two seemingly every night. He's the most reliable SS we've had since Guillen in his prime, circa early 90's. Valantin has more range and arm at SS, but I'll settle for Royce's solid play anytime. Solid defense up the middle is a key to having a good team.

Durham could probably bring some solid trade value and he's still in the middle of a very solid career. Let's see what we can get for the guy.

Tragg
08-02-2001, 09:07 AM
Again, Clayton's offensive numbers, for the season, are horrendous. Even with his recent "surge" his obp isn't that great because he refuses to take a walk, wildly swinging at anything near the zone.
Clayton's offensive numbers, for his 10 year career, are bad.
He's an adequate fielder, but few errors doesn't = great defense.

Durham is 10 times the offensive player clayton is and is still one of the best 2b in the AL.

ode to veeck
08-02-2001, 09:10 AM
I'm sorry but Royce doesn't hold a candle to Ozzie "play of the week" Guillen in his prime with a glove in his hand

MikeKreevich
08-02-2001, 09:10 AM
I can't argue with what you write. Someone needs to light a fire under Durham's ass. If only he had Rowand's enthusiasm. This team will have to address the leadoff question if they are ever going to win anything.

Soxboyrob
08-02-2001, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by Tragg
Again, Clayton's offensive numbers, for the season, are horrendous. Even with his recent "surge" his obp isn't that great because he refuses to take a walk, wildly swinging at anything near the zone.
Clayton's offensive numbers, for his 10 year career, are bad.
He's an adequate fielder, but few errors doesn't = great defense.

Yes, they are bad for the season. Agreed 100%. But you're dismissing the fact that he seems to have shaken off whatever was his problem during the first 7 weeks. A solid defensive SS is not expected to have anything better than decent numbers. He's given me reason to believe he'll continue to put up decent numbers. We need reliable defense and should have the offense next season to be able to afford his lesser bat.

By no means am I accusing Clayton of being "great." He's better than adequate and makes virtually "all" of the plays that he is supposed to make, with a few "wow" plays to boot. All I know is I've become a fan of seeing the number zero(0) in the "E" column after games.

Soxboyrob
08-02-2001, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
I'm sorry but Royce doesn't hold a candle to Ozzie "play of the week" Guillen in his prime with a glove in his hand

Ozzie had no arm and no bat to go with it. I find them to be fairly similar players. Probably get a tad more offense from Clayton and a tad more "d" from Oz. I liked Ozzie, too, but lest we not overrate the guy.

Jerry_Manuel
08-02-2001, 11:17 AM
Durham could probably bring some solid trade value and he's still in the middle of a very solid career. Let's see what we can get for the guy.

Sorry but Williams has already said he is apart of the core group of players who won't be moved.

Jerry_Manuel
08-02-2001, 11:18 AM
He's an adequate fielder, but few errors doesn't = great defense.

The same can be said for Durham.

Jerry_Manuel
08-02-2001, 11:20 AM
I'm sorry but Royce doesn't hold a candle to Ozzie "play of the week" Guillen in his prime with a glove in his hand

I didn't get to see much of Guillen being 17 but he seemed like a hell of player.

Jerry_Manuel
08-02-2001, 11:21 AM
This team will have to address the leadoff question if they are ever going to win anything.

They should but won't.
Next year Durham will be leading off.

jklm
08-02-2001, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Sorry but Williams has already said he is apart of the core group of players who won't be moved.

Do you believe him?? He will trade Ray for Drew Barrymore or Darryl Strawberry.

KempersRS
08-02-2001, 11:24 AM
You learn after a while that this organization isn't very big fans of the "go out and fix your weaknesses so you can win some damn ballgames" method.

Jerry_Manuel
08-02-2001, 11:24 AM
Do you believe him?? He will trade Ray for Drew Barrymore or Darryl Strawberry

Yeah I do here, Durham seems like the golden child of the Sox where it seems he can do no wrong.

Jerry_Manuel
08-02-2001, 11:25 AM
You learn after a while that this organization isn't very big fans of the "go out and fix your weaknesses so you can win some damn ballgames" method.

Yeah I have learned that!

Tragg
08-02-2001, 11:26 AM
you're right, you dont' expect offense from most defensive shortops.
Two points: 1)defensive ss that can't hit are a dime a dozen - no reason to have clayton signed to a muli year to do that - and he isn't a great defensive ss anyway; 2) the idea is to win a WS; you don't do that with hitters like clayton and alomar in your lineup - no how, no way, it won't happen.

ode to veeck
08-02-2001, 11:28 AM
I was only comparing Ozzie's fielding to Royce's and there' no comparison. Lest I remind you Royce doesn't have a gun either, although he occasionally gets a nice assist on the replay home.
Valentin's got an arm that gets outs on plays that are scored as hits to Royce.

OK Royce's BA numbers at the plate are better since June 1, but what's his OBP in that stretch? It's the lack of baserunners that's killing the Sox run production.

Q: what's Royce's OBP since June 1?

Corspe ball leading indicators are anyone in your lineup with OBP under .300 and Royce looks like night of the living dead. When you add up his walks for the season he looks like he's eating the flesh of Sox fans everywhere.

Obvious fellow flesh eaters are Liefer, Josh Paul, Singleton, Sandy...

Jerry_Manuel
08-02-2001, 11:28 AM
the idea is to win a WS; you don't do that with hitters like clayton and alomar in your lineup - no how, no way, it won't happen.

Well if this was Sandy Alomar 4 years ago we could but it isn't.

steff
08-02-2001, 02:36 PM
Ray isn't going anywhere Rob. Ray's a lifer. He'll be around longer than Thomas. You will get a slap next time I see you!!!

Jerry_Manuel
08-02-2001, 02:41 PM
You will get a slap next time I see you!!!

:iron
That's the kind of talk I like to hear.

Soxboyrob
08-02-2001, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
Ray isn't going anywhere Rob. Ray's a lifer. He'll be around longer than Thomas. You will get a slap next time I see you!!!

Listen here Steffi, I calls 'em like I sees 'em. Ray's got tons of "talent" but is a few rocks shy of a load. If the guy had the right combination of guts, brains and determination, he'd be the best second baseman in baseball. That said, I think you're right when you call him a lifer. I don't think he's going anywhere.

FarWestChicago
08-02-2001, 02:43 PM
Listen here Steffi, I calls 'em like I sees 'em. Ray's got tons of "talent" but is a few rocks shy of a load. If the guy had the right combination of guts, brains and determination, he'd be the best second baseman in baseball.

You got that right. That's what's so frustrating about him. If you could give him the heart of Manos he would be one helluva ball player.

Jerry_Manuel
08-02-2001, 02:44 PM
Listen here Steffi, I calls 'em like I sees 'em. Ray's got tons of "talent" but is a few rocks shy of a load.

I might be talking out of turn since that was directed to Steff Durham has talent, he is just lazy.

Jerry_Manuel
08-02-2001, 02:45 PM
You got that right. That's what's so frustrating about him. If you could give him the heart of Manos he would be one helluva ball player.

I wonder if Ray lost some of his heart from being around Bob "Heart Attack waiting to happen" Howry.

steff
08-02-2001, 02:48 PM
Loads of talent... but I think he's a lot smarter than he plays. Look what he did in his contract year...
Completely MY opinion.... since management is lazy, so is the core.

Soxboyrob
08-02-2001, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by steff3603
Loads of talent... but I think he's a lot smarter than he plays. Look what he did in his contract year...
Completely MY opinion.... since management is lazy, so is the core.

You may be right about how smart the guy is but I'm speaking only for his decisionmaking when he steps between the lines. That's where his brain goes on vaporlock. He never seemed lazy to me. I think his lack of savvy and quick thinking on the bases and field make him "seem" lazy when actually he's just pausing to think.