PDA

View Full Version : Is it possible we break camp with only 11 pitchers?


Scottiehaswheels
03-01-2008, 11:29 AM
I was just wondering because although it's early we seem to have a plethora of guys that are on the bubble of making the team in the OF, IF. With the signings of Dotel/Linebrink I think the bullpen is better solidified to handle the pressure of the long season without wearing out as much as maybe in past years with younger players.... Anyone else starting to wonder if maybe we head north with a bullpen of MacDougal or Masset/Jenks/Linebrink/Dotel/Thorton/Logan and instead carry all 5 OF's(Dye, Quentin, Swisher, Anderson, Owens)?

DumpJerry
03-01-2008, 11:31 AM
Sure. For April because of the off-days and then go to 12 in May.

Scottiehaswheels
03-01-2008, 11:39 AM
Sure. For April because of the off-days and then go to 12 in May.Thats kinda what I was thinking as well... But most things coming out of camp mention heading north with 12 pitchers.. I thought it might be a better idea to head north with all 5 OF's for at least the start of the season and work them in and out of the lineup for the first month or so of the season...

sox1970
03-01-2008, 11:49 AM
There really aren't that many off days in April this year. You can't assume rainouts either, so I think they'll stick with 7 in the pen.

TomBradley72
03-01-2008, 11:54 AM
Here's how I see the pitching staff unfolding:

Beuhrle
Vazquez
Danks
Contreras
Floyd
Jenks
Linebink
Dotel
Thornton
Logan
MacDougalOn the bubble: Wassermann, Masset

I think the 11 vs.12 question may be influenced by who has "options" left. If the choice is between "releasing" Massett because he's out of options or keeping him as the 12th pitcher...that could play into decision. I'm not sure if MacDougal has options left or not.

sox1970
03-01-2008, 11:59 AM
MacDougal has an option left, and I think if Masset and Wassermann both outpitch him, then MacDougal may be out.

Masset won't be released. If anything, he'd be put on waivers, and some team will make a trade for him. I think this is what will probably happen.

Save McCuddy's
03-01-2008, 12:02 PM
If we made Haeger one of the 11 we'd never need to bump up to 12.

There is no need to have linebrink, macdougal and dotel. Figure out which two (if there are two) are healthy and effective and can the third. What an embarrassing waste of money the lot of them are.

sox1970
03-01-2008, 12:08 PM
If we made Haeger one of the 11 we'd never need to bump up to 12.

There is no need to have linebrink, macdougal and dotel. Figure out which two (if there are two) are healthy and effective and can the third. What an embarrassing waste of money the lot of them are.

:o:

Do you know how much money the Sox just gave to Linebrink and Dotel? They're not going anywhere.

Would you like Aardmsa and Sisco back in the pen? Just curious.

diehardRLsoxfan
03-01-2008, 12:17 PM
If Wasserman does not break camp with the team it will be a huge mistake. I would love to see Macdougal harness his stuff but I don't think that it is going to happen. The best thing that can happen with him is he pitches well enough so that we can trade him.

...
03-01-2008, 12:48 PM
If we made Haeger one of the 11 we'd never need to bump up to 12.

There is no need to have linebrink, macdougal and dotel. Figure out which two (if there are two) are healthy and effective and can the third. What an embarrassing waste of money the lot of them are.

dum
dum
dum
dum
dum

http://pics.livejournal.com/dimitridze/pic/00129q9x

diehardRLsoxfan
03-01-2008, 12:56 PM
If our bullpen out of Arizona is-

Jenks
Thornton
Dotel
Linebrink
Wasserman
Logan
Macdougal

Who can pitch LR for us in this Motley Crew?

If he shows something in spring ideally I would like to see Masset replace Macdougal to give us a legitimate long guy.

JB98
03-01-2008, 01:06 PM
If our bullpen out of Arizona is-

Jenks
Thornton
Dotel
Linebrink
Wasserman
Logan
Macdougal

Who can pitch LR for us in this Motley Crew?

If he shows something in spring ideally I would like to see Masset replace Macdougal to give us a legitimate long guy.


I agree with this post. The seven guys listed above are all either short relievers or specialists. We need someone who can come in and pitch two or three innings on days where a starter gets knocked out early. Who of the above seven can do that? None, IMO.

As far as I'm concerned, Jenks, Linebrink, Dotel, Thornton and Logan are all on the club. Then, we have Masset and Haeger battling for the long-relief job. MacDougal and Wassermann are in competition for a spot as a right-handed specialist.

I think they'll come north with 12. That's just the way Ozzie manages.

California Sox
03-01-2008, 05:31 PM
No way they need 12 pitchers in April but I think that's what it will be.

If Masset shows anything he'll make the team. The organization likes him and won't give him up for (practically) nothing. I'd like to see Macdougal go, but I doubt that will happen.

Owens, Getz, Ramirez, Anderson, Quentin, Richar, Armstrong, and Lucy can all be sent down. I think the last cut this year is going to be a tough one. Nice to know that there will be some near MLB-ready reinforcements in AAA though.

KyWhiSoxFan
03-01-2008, 05:47 PM
Please, please no MacDougal on the team. He is a head case; always has been, always will be. I can't stand watching him pitch. He has no idea where the ball is going. Wasserman deserves the spot based on last year; that should not even be a question between him and MacDougal. Send MacDougal down if he can't be traded.

Based on the assumption the Sox will have 11 pitchers, that leaves Masset. So unless KW packages a position player with a reliever, they are going to have to place Masset on waivers.

That is why I think they're talking about 12 pitchers. I think the Sox are going to try to shorten games this year, and with 12 they would have enough arms to do it. I think Masset would be the best candidate for long relief.

Save McCuddy's
03-02-2008, 08:29 AM
:o:

Do you know how much money the Sox just gave to Linebrink and Dotel? They're not going anywhere.

Would you like Aardmsa and Sisco back in the pen? Just curious.

Where do I have Sisco or Aardsma listed?

Simply stated: MacDougal is absolutely awful. He was equally as bad as Aardsma last year.

My point, other than the fact that all three of our right-handed set up men are over-paid, was that a bullpen shouldn't need 3 right-hand set up men behind a right-handed closer.

sox1970
03-02-2008, 08:55 AM
Where do I have Sisco or Aardsma listed?

Simply stated: MacDougal is absolutely awful. He was equally as bad as Aardsma last year.

My point, other than the fact that all three of our right-handed set up men are over-paid, was that a bullpen shouldn't need 3 right-hand set up men behind a right-handed closer.

What does it matter what hand they throw with if they get outs? I'm glad they signed some veterans and aren't relying on Dewon Day and Ryan Bukvich.

Save McCuddy's
03-02-2008, 09:42 AM
What does it matter what hand they throw with if they get outs? I'm glad they signed some veterans and aren't relying on Dewon Day and Ryan Bukvich.

What is so inherently good about being a veteran?

Non closers in most bull pens can only become veterans if they aren't talented enough to go into the rotation or step in and close. Dotel was once that talented, but now figures most likely to be damaged goods.

Linebrink is a veteran all right -- buckle up for the next few years and watch him soft toss into his mid-thirties with his effectiveness eroding with each passing season. That should be fun.

MacDougal -- one can only hope that if he looks like he did much of last year that Ozzie won't continually trot him out anyways.

Save McCuddy's
03-02-2008, 09:44 AM
What does it matter what hand they throw with if they get outs? I'm glad they signed some veterans and aren't relying on Dewon Day and Ryan Bukvich.

It doesn't matter if they're all as good as Jenks. When they're not, it makes no sense to tie them all up for multiple years at a total cost above $10 million/per. How many set up men do you need? In my book, 2 -- and hope that they're good.

Mohoney
03-02-2008, 10:11 AM
If we made Haeger one of the 11 we'd never need to bump up to 12.

There is no need to have linebrink, macdougal and dotel. Figure out which two (if there are two) are healthy and effective and can the third. What an embarrassing waste of money the lot of them are.

IMO, we're going to need contributions from all 3 guys if we're going to win this division.

With the young starters that we're going with, we have to win some games late to help them out. That way, they can go in with the mindset of attacking hitters and keeping us in the game. If these guys can't trust the bullpen to hold their leads or to win a tie game late, they might lose focus and try to be too perfect out there, and the results of that could be a disaster.

I also think it's a bit unfair to label Linebrink or Dotel as embarassing wastes of money when they haven't even pitched one meaningful inning in our uniform yet.

Save McCuddy's
03-02-2008, 10:40 AM
I also think it's a bit unfair to label Linebrink or Dotel as embarassing wastes of money when they haven't even pitched one meaningful inning in our uniform yet.

It'll be too late to concede this point once the results are in --

I prefer not to delude myself into thinking that an NL set-up man with declining K-rates is going to find effectiveness in the tougher league at 31. I also wonder who we were bidding against that was willing to guarantee Dotel $12 million who's pitched 55 innings in the last 3 years with consistently higher whip and ERA in AL stints than NL. As for MacDougal, I can't blame Kenny for re-upping him after his performance in '06. I do blame Ozzie for continually putting him in games last year when it was obvious that he had nothing -- consistently nothing.

Mohoney
03-02-2008, 10:52 AM
It'll be too late to concede this point once the results are in --

I prefer not to delude myself into thinking that an NL set-up man with declining K-rates is going to find effectiveness in the tougher league at 31. I also wonder who we were bidding against that was willing to guarantee Dotel $12 million who's pitched 55 innings in the last 3 years with consistently higher whip and ERA in AL stints than NL. As for MacDougal, I can't blame Kenny for re-upping him after his performance in '06. I do blame Ozzie for continually putting him in games last year when it was obvious that he had nothing -- consistently nothing.

I never guaranteed that any of the 3 guys were going to automatically be effective, but you don't even want to give them a chance.

There are really only 2 ways to try and repair an awful bullpen. You can either go with young flamethrowers and hope for the best (like we did in 2007), or you throw money at veterans and hope for the best (like we did this offseason). Either way, bullpens are so fickle by nature that predicting success or failure with absolute certainty is an exercise in futility.

Since we already tried the 1st option and got burned, I have no problem with trying the 2nd one and seeing if we fare better.

Save McCuddy's
03-02-2008, 11:29 AM
I agree with your assessment, but I sure wish we hadn't been burned last year, because I believe that was the more intelligent route and expenditure of capital. It's not going to work every time, nor is it going to blow up in your face as badly as last year. The plus side is that those contracts were 1 year deals and cheap ones at that. If this route fails, you're stuck with it for years to come.

jabrch
03-02-2008, 11:52 AM
It's threads like this that remind me how much our fans do suck these days...

People are writing off two FA signings (whom you can make a reasonable arguement either way for) before they ever throw a single inning for us.

I miss people wanting to see baseball played before they tell us how much smarter they are than management.

Save McCuddy's
03-02-2008, 05:20 PM
Maybe you should move a few blocks north if you can't handle logical cynicism.

If, as you say, both the FA signings can be argued from either side, why do you protest the presence of the negative argument? Debates are a lot more interesting than a perpetual smoke machine aimed at our rear ends.

jabrch
03-02-2008, 09:00 PM
Maybe you should move a few blocks north if you can't handle logical cynicism.

If, as you say, both the FA signings can be argued from either side, why do you protest the presence of the negative argument? Debates are a lot more interesting than a perpetual smoke machine aimed at our rear ends.

There is a significant difference between a discussion about something that can go either way, and someone drawing conclusions that they portray as fact when they have prescious little more than opinion to back it up.

There is a difference between saying, "I don't like how player X plays" and saying a player is a "waste of money" when that player has proven in the recent past to be a very effective player.

It's entirely possible that Dotel, Linebrink and every other player on this team sucks. But it is not logical cynicsm to claim to know that as a fact given what we know today.

getonbckthr
03-02-2008, 09:02 PM
I'm kind of expecting Macdougal to be traded.

Save McCuddy's
03-02-2008, 10:04 PM
There is a significant difference between a discussion about something that can go either way, and someone drawing conclusions that they portray as fact when they have prescious little more than opinion to back it up.

There is a difference between saying, "I don't like how player X plays" and saying a player is a "waste of money" when that player has proven in the recent past to be a very effective player.

It's entirely possible that Dotel, Linebrink and every other player on this team sucks. But it is not logical cynicsm to claim to know that as a fact given what we know today.

Now we're getting somewhere. I'll take up the Linebrink issue first as I have posted these sentiments elsewhere. What do we know today about Linebrink?
He comes into the season at 31 years old. It's not typical to expect set up men featuring primarily hard stuff and sliders to improve upon previous peak seasons between 31 and 35.
He has shown slight decline in 2006 and significant decline last year statistically from his two peak performance seasons in 2004 and 2005. This is not typically a good sign for pitchers over thirty years of age, especially when they will be: a) leaving a decided pitcher's park and heading to a hitter's park and b) leaving the less talented NL for the more dangerous AL.
There is a sort of precedence that I draw from Luis Vizcaino. After a less than dramatic opening with Oakland, Luis broke out big with 2 seasons in Milwaukee (NL being the key here) and struck out a guy per inning twice and recorded whips of 1.04 and 1.18 in his first and third seasons there. Despite his production and strong previous season, he was looked at as little more than a throw-in by most when we dealt Caballo for Pods. Vizcaino's numbers however in 2002-2004 are very comparable to Linebrink's last 3 seasons. Fortunately in spring of 2005 we didn't subscribe to a tremendous amount of stock in Vizcaino's role. He eventually did give us some good innings after a rough start , but let's face it: 43 ks and 29 bb's in 70ip was a far cry from the lines he was delivering in the NL. Low and behold, back in the NL in 2006, he refound his form and k'ed 72 with 29 bb's in 65 plus innings. Last year back in the AL, the k's dropped and bb's climbed again as he turned in a better year than he gave us in 2005, but pedestrian by the standards and expectations most have of Linebrink. As I posted elsewhere, there is every logical reason to believe based on this Vizcaino comparison and many other NL to AL swaps that Linebrink's numbers will suffer. My extrapoloation is that they are going to suffer to the tune of: 65 IP 43k's 28 bb's 61 Hits. Now, a guy may get lucky and get double play balls, outs at the right time or enough offense to avoid hurting the team with numbers like that, but the odds will catch up to him eventually.
You may well disagree with my opinion, and you may even disagree with how I arrived at it - but ease up on the unfounded "precious little opinion" crap. I have watched, wagered and studied this game for 25 years. I can usually call a spade a spade -- and Linebrink looks very much the part in this case. Do I hope he has a miracle Politte-type year and we go after the title again -- of course. But being a fan isn't just about the rah rah. I take (in a rather warped and obsessive way) the club as a personal extension of myself and put a lot of stock in the decisions it makes. When I don't like them, I like to rant a bit. When I do -- I praise em mighty. I am still on record as supporting last year's bull pen plan 100%. Thought there were some shrewd bets placed and a good plan in place to ease Masset and others up to the show while we were at it. Things went massively wrong. I still feel that the result was an aberration and that if we tries a similar strategy 10 different times we would have been successful 7 and the failures would have been less spectacular than last year.

At any rate -- support your arguments cease the "our fans suck" whines.

jabrch
03-02-2008, 10:11 PM
At any rate -- support your arguments cease the "our fans suck" whines.

As you are entitled to your opinion about Kenny's moves, I am entitled to my opinion on what has become of our fanbase. Right?

Save McCuddy's
03-02-2008, 10:16 PM
That would only seem fair. :gulp: