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View Full Version : Time to make a move, Kenny


the1tab
02-26-2008, 08:44 PM
It was announced on multiple websites today, including Yahoo! Sports and ESPN.com, that Omar Vizquel is going to have knee surgery and be out 4-6 weeks. He's old and knees are a tough thing to get over at short.

It's been all over WSI that we've talked to the San Francisco Giants about Joe Crede. They needs bats, and now they need a stopgap (and maybe regular) SS.

Why would we not strike now, while there is a definite need on their end, and sweeten the deal by including Uribe? We can unload Uribe's contract and make the Spring a heckuva lot easier on our middle infield by answering the questions at third and second in one shot.

Thoughts?

Brian26
02-26-2008, 08:47 PM
If that were to happen, the Giants would have four former White Sox players in their starting nine, including three guys that were on the '05 World Champions.

the1tab
02-26-2008, 08:50 PM
If that were to happen, the Giants would have four former White Sox players in their starting nine, including three guys that were on the '05 World Champions.

In Rowand & Crede they might have the two best defenders from that squad.

sox1970
02-26-2008, 08:52 PM
I think the Sox and Giants have already agreed to a deal. They're just going to make sure Crede is playing well, and nobody else involved gets hurt by that date. If I had to guess, Crede will be gone by the off day--March 13.

I think Uribe will go to Baltimore.

chisox77
02-26-2008, 08:53 PM
It was announced on multiple websites today, including Yahoo! Sports and ESPN.com, that Omar Vizquel is going to have knee surgery and be out 4-6 weeks. He's old and knees are a tough thing to get over at short.

It's been all over WSI that we've talked to the San Francisco Giants about Joe Crede. They needs bats, and now they need a stopgap (and maybe regular) SS.

Why would we not strike now, while there is a definite need on their end, and sweeten the deal by including Uribe? We can unload Uribe's contract and make the Spring a heckuva lot easier on our middle infield by answering the questions at third and second in one shot.

Thoughts?


Not a bad idea. But as always, we can speculate and wish for something to happen (and something will), but it will not happen exactly the way we want it or wish for it to. Still, a decent thought.


:cool:

The Immigrant
02-26-2008, 08:59 PM
Why rush to deal Uribe? One of our second basemen of the future is currently stuck in the Dominican and another has a hole in his swing that would make Pedro Cerano cringe.

thedudeabides
02-26-2008, 08:59 PM
I know everybody wants to get rid of Uribe, but if Ramirez doesn't make the team, who's the backup SS? I'm sure the Sox are seeing what they have in Ramirez before dealing Uribe.

Also, it's not like the Giants are anymore desperate at this point. They aren't going to give up a lot when Vizquel could be back right as the season begins. Especially, considering they are picked last in their division.

Brian26
02-26-2008, 09:11 PM
Also, it's not like the Giants are anymore desperate at this point.

Never under-estimate the lack of intelligence of Brian Sabean and Ron Schueler.

the1tab
02-26-2008, 09:11 PM
I know everybody wants to get rid of Uribe, but if Ramirez doesn't make the team, who's the backup SS? I'm sure the Sox are seeing what they have in Ramirez before dealing Uribe.

Also, it's not like the Giants are anymore desperate at this point. They aren't going to give up a lot when Vizquel could be back right as the season begins. Especially, considering they are picked last in their division.

The San Francisco Giants have more to prove and accomplish in 2008 than any other team in baseball. There is not one team in baseball that has been as one-man centered as the Giants have been for the last 15 years except MAYBE the McGwire-Cardinals. I can't find sales info to support it, but I would be willing to wager that greater than 98% of Giants jerseys sold in the last 5 years have been the #25. Was he a dirtball? Yeah, sure. But was he their entire franchise? Yes. And now he's gone and they're picked last in their division and the only thing they've got going for them this spring is... Kevin Frandsen vs RayRay Durham at 2nd base?

The Giants need to sell themselves... they have zero identity. They could be competitive in their division w/ their young arms and good defense, addings one or two good bats. The Dodgers have ancient players all over their roster, the Padres have health & depth concerns of their own (not to mention how human Trevor Hoffman looked in Milwaukee last year), and Arizona (as Cubs fans can attest) can't hit for average. While there's a lot of talent, it's still doable if they make a couple good moves.

If I were Kenny I would make the following offer:

Uribe & Crede
for
Durham & Lowry

Durham gives us a guy that's already staring down the barrel of not starting in SF, who can switch hit and knows Chicago. While I don't like his age, I would take his versatility over Uribe's enormous can

thedudeabides
02-26-2008, 09:12 PM
Never under-estimate the lack of intelligence of Brian Sabean and Ron Schueler.

touche

btrain929
02-26-2008, 09:14 PM
I doubt they are starving for a SS who will be out MAYBE 1 wk of the regular season....:rolleyes:

If they want him, for some odd reason, absolutely trade him. I just don't think they are jumping on the phones in a wild hysterical search for a SS because Vizquel will be out for a month.

thedudeabides
02-26-2008, 09:19 PM
The San Francisco Giants have more to prove and accomplish in 2008 than any other team in baseball. There is not one team in baseball that has been as one-man centered as the Giants have been for the last 15 years except MAYBE the McGwire-Cardinals. I can't find sales info to support it, but I would be willing to wager that greater than 98% of Giants jerseys sold in the last 5 years have been the #25. Was he a dirtball? Yeah, sure. But was he their entire franchise? Yes. And now he's gone and they're picked last in their division and the only thing they've got going for them this spring is... Kevin Frandsen vs RayRay Durham at 2nd base?

The Giants need to sell themselves... they have zero identity. They could be competitive in their division w/ their young arms and good defense, addings one or two good bats. The Dodgers have ancient players all over their roster, the Padres have health & depth concerns of their own (not to mention how human Trevor Hoffman looked in Milwaukee last year), and Arizona (as Cubs fans can attest) can't hit for average. While there's a lot of talent, it's still doable if they make a couple good moves.

If I were Kenny I would make the following offer:

Uribe & Crede
for
Durham & Lowry

Durham gives us a guy that's already staring down the barrel of not starting in SF, who can switch hit and knows Chicago. While I don't like his age, I would take his versatility over Uribe's enormous can

I don't want to turn this into an NL West debate, but I think your underselling the Dodgers and probably the Padres. The Giants lineup is awefull and acquiring Uribe to replace Durham a week or two into the season won't help. And for a variety of reasons there is no way Durham is coming back to the Sox.

KyWhiSoxFan
02-26-2008, 09:49 PM
I know everybody wants to get rid of Uribe, but if Ramirez doesn't make the team, who's the backup SS? I'm sure the Sox are seeing what they have in Ramirez before dealing Uribe.

I agree. What's the rush in dumping Uribe? Everyone who wants to trade him usually cites his salary, but that is not an issue. Who cares what he makes? It doesn't cost me anything. If JR wants to pay him $4.5m to be a backup, that is fine by me. It's a one-year contract and it is not preventing KW from making any moves. Uribe will be able to pay 3B, SS, and 2B, which is more than Ozuna gives you, and nobody knows yet what Ramirez can do.

Uribe is good insurance at this point for a number of positions. He's also good around the clubhouse, won a ring as the starting SS, and so has not complained about losing his position or anything else. If he did not swing at every pitch around his ankles, I might even like him.

rdwj
02-26-2008, 09:52 PM
Juan also has some decent pop. That's pretty nice to have in an infield bench player. Besides, he may get a decent amount of playing time. I have no idea why anyone wouldn't want him on the bench.

kittle42
02-26-2008, 10:39 PM
If that were to happen, the Giants would have four former White Sox players in their starting nine, including three guys that were on the '05 World Champions.

Some here would say that's the key to success in '08.

Tragg
02-26-2008, 11:04 PM
Why would we not strike now, while there is a definite need on their end, and sweeten the deal by including Uribe? We can unload Uribe's contract and make the Spring a heckuva lot easier on our middle infield by answering the questions at third and second in one shot.

Thoughts?
Uribe's the one we need to deal.
That would help on many fronts.

oeo
02-26-2008, 11:20 PM
Uribe's the one we need to deal.
That would help on many fronts.

Trading Uribe doesn't 'help' anything. The only thing we'd be doing is dropping a little salary.

Uribe said he will not be a problem. Keep him around as our super-utility guy. $4.5 million is a lot for that role, but that was the chance we took back in November.

Tragg
02-26-2008, 11:30 PM
Trading Uribe doesn't 'help' anything. The only thing we'd be doing is dropping a little salary.

Uribe said he will not be a problem. Keep him around as our super-utility guy. $4.5 million is a lot for that role, but that was the chance we took back in November.
Helps a lot. For one thing we'll get something for him, particularly if we trade him to a desparate team. If he's so easily replaceable at SS, why did we pay him 4.5 mill, when SS are available at 1/3 of that. The reason is that he's better than those guys.
Two, how many utility guys do we need? Ramirez, Osuna and Uribe? We loaded the bench with 3rd string talent last year, but which could play various positions, aka "utility players", and it showed. Our offense was a joke with the first injury because there wasn't a 2nd string talent, much less starter talent, on the bench. We sure don't need all 3 of those guys. Now, if Ramirez and Osuna can't handle the utility role, then fine.

And third, too big a temptation to play the mediocre veteran if the young player happens to start of slowly (or sometimes if he doesn't). Okay by me if that temptation is removed.

It would be a great move to move Uribe if we can get something for him.

drewcifer
02-26-2008, 11:43 PM
Helps a lot. For one thing we'll get something for him, particularly if we trade him to a desparate team. If he's so easily replaceable at SS, why did we pay him 4.5 mill, when SS are available at 1/3 of that. The reason is that he's better than those guys.


The reason is because he was due $5M to pick up his option and it wasn't until AFTER the option expired that the new $4.5M yr deal was done. O-Cab/Garland wasn't done and we'd have no SS if not for a deal that met his contract. In fact, KW actually undercut his option by a 1/2M.

Not saying it wouldn't be a good thing to move Uribe, but you sure as hell won't get $4.5M of value for him. Not even close. But we could have had even WORSE than him without paying that insurance premium!

Tragg
02-26-2008, 11:56 PM
The reason is because he was due $5M to pick up his option and it wasn't until AFTER the option expired that the new $4.5M yr deal was done. O-Cab/Garland wasn't done and we'd have no SS if not for a deal that met his contract. In fact, KW actually undercut his option by a 1/2M.

Not saying it wouldn't be a good thing to move Uribe, but you sure as hell won't get $4.5M of value for him. Not even close. But we could have had even WORSE than him without paying that insurance premium! If we paid Uribe more than he's worth as an insurance premium (4 months before the season)....why wouldn't a desperate SF pay us even MORE than that (in terms of talent) 5 weeks before the start of the season?

And I'm not so sure he isn't worth $4.5 million. Uribe can hit a little...the $2 mill ss usually can't hit a lick (or they are mediocre fielders). He's overpaid a little, but not that much. Check Lugo's salary.

He's the kind of player we should trade - if we can get something for him because we have a starting SS. Crede, too (if we are convinced Fields can handle 3rd). I think the Sox weakness right now is prospects....so that would be fine with me. (yes, we have other weaknesses, but trading Crede or Uribe sure won't bring in the solutions to those weaknesses).

drewcifer
02-27-2008, 12:03 AM
If we paid Uribe more than he's worth as an insurance premium (4 months before the season)....why wouldn't a desperate SF pay us even MORE than that (in terms of talent) 5 weeks before the start of the season?

And I'm not so sure he isn't worth $4.5 million. Uribe can hit a little...the $2 mill ss usually can't hit a lick (or they are mediocre fielders). He's overpaid a little, but not that much. Check Lugo's salary.

He's the kind of player we should trade - if we can get something for him because we have a starting SS. Crede, too (if we are convinced Fields can handle 3rd). I think the Sox weakness right now is prospects....so that would be fine with me. (yes, we have other weaknesses, but trading Crede or Uribe sure won't bring in the solutions to those weaknesses).

Don't misquote what I said - I didn't say we overpaid him; I said we didn't have a SS to replace him and he was due $5M to keep him since we didn't have the deal with O-Cab at the deadline. Big difference. In the end, we got O-Cab a few days later, but we could've been really screwed.

Otherwise, yeah... SF may want him. But I'm sure they're far more interested in Crede.

A. Cavatica
02-27-2008, 12:04 AM
We loaded the bench with 3rd string talent last year, but which could play various positions, aka "utility players", and it showed. Our offense was a joke with the first injury because there wasn't a 2nd string talent, much less starter talent, on the bench.

I agree with you wanting to trade Uribe, but your point here is mystifying. For one thing, last year's bench was loaded with 2nd-string talent in Hall, Cintron, Mackowiak, and Erstad -- all very experienced players who had started or been on the cusp of winning starting jobs -- plus Ozuna. Our bench sucked last year because Hall and Ozuna and several regulars got hurt, Cintron completely tanked, the manager overused Erstad, and the rookies we brought up (mostly) stunk.

For another thing, Uribe certainly qualifies as a 2nd string talent, so if you're arguing we need more 2nd string talents, shouldn't you be arguing that you want to keep Uribe?

Tragg
02-27-2008, 12:18 AM
I agree with you wanting to trade Uribe, but your point here is mystifying. For one thing, last year's bench was loaded with 2nd-string talent in Hall, Cintron, Mackowiak, and Erstad -- all very experienced players who had started or been on the cusp of winning starting jobs -- plus Ozuna. Our bench sucked last year because Hall and Ozuna and several regulars got hurt, Cintron completely tanked, the manager overused Erstad, and the rookies we brought up (mostly) stunk.

For another thing, Uribe certainly qualifies as a 2nd string talent, so if you're arguing we need more 2nd string talents, shouldn't you be arguing that you want to keep Uribe?
Uribe's a first string talent as a SS (low first string, but he's a ML starter). But as a bench bat, he's a 3rd string talent. That's what I'm trying to say. WE need a utility infielder - but we have Osuna and Ramirez, both of whom seem pencilled into jobs. I think Uribe would be better than Osuna (who knows what Ramirez can do) because right now, he's the best power hitter off the bench (presuming both Fields and Crede aren't on the ML roster).

Erstad was a starter last year. But look at the bench - who on that bench was a legitimate ML hitter? Maybe Mack. I see the same problem on this team - who's the hitter off the bench? Owens and Uribe. Maybe I'm talking myself into keeping him - Uribe's the best bench bat we have.

kittle42
02-27-2008, 12:21 AM
O-Cab

Can we please stop this, now?!?

A. Cavatica
02-27-2008, 12:22 AM
Uribe's the definition of a streak hitter. I don't see him being a useful bat off the bench. Just as a reserve bat, I'd rather have Mack, Cintron, or Hall.

drewcifer
02-27-2008, 12:23 AM
Uribe's a first string talent as a SS (low first string, but he's a ML starter). But as a bench bat, he's a 3rd string talent. That's what I'm trying to say. WE need a utility infielder - but we have Osuna and Ramirez, both of whom seem pencilled into jobs. I think Uribe would be better than Osuna (who knows what Ramirez can do) because right now, he's the best power hitter off the bench (presuming both Fields and Crede aren't on the ML roster).

Erstad was a starter last year. But look at the bench - who on that bench was a legitimate ML hitter? Maybe Mack. I see the same problem on this team - who's the hitter off the bench? Owens and Uribe. Maybe I'm talking myself into keeping him - Uribe's the best bench bat we have.

Juan Uribe is just about the worst hitting starter in all of baseball.

And consistently. There's really no arguing this.

Ozuna can hit and get on-base. HIt and run. Steal. You know - Have options for a manger when he COMES OFF THE BENCH. Juan Uribe option is hit it out or walk on in.

Tragg
02-27-2008, 12:25 AM
Uribe's the definition of a streak hitter. I don't see him being a useful bat off the bench. Just as a reserve bat, I'd rather have Mack, Cintron, or Hall.
He can go deep, though. That's needed on the bench. Otherwise, can I vote none of the above? (Mack was okay).

A. Cavatica
02-27-2008, 12:27 AM
He can go deep, though. That's needed on the bench. Otherwise, can I vote none of the above? (Mack was okay).

So could Borchard.

voodoochile
02-27-2008, 12:40 AM
So could Borchard.

Really? Borchard has shown he can hit 20+ HR in the majors?

Uribe not only brings some power off the bench, he also can play 3 IF positions and could probably play LF in a pinch.

I don't mind keeping Juan because of the flexibility/backup coverage he gives the team. Crede will also bring more in trade.

Carolina Kenny
02-27-2008, 09:10 AM
I agree with you wanting to trade Uribe, but your point here is mystifying. For one thing, last year's bench was loaded with 2nd-string talent in Hall, Cintron, Mackowiak, and Erstad -- all very experienced players who had started or been on the cusp of winning starting jobs -- plus Ozuna. Our bench sucked last year because Hall and Ozuna and several regulars got hurt, Cintron completely tanked, the manager overused Erstad, and the rookies we brought up (mostly) stunk.

For another thing, Uribe certainly qualifies as a 2nd string talent, so if you're arguing we need more 2nd string talents, shouldn't you be arguing that you want to keep Uribe?

At least this is a "good" problem to have.

THE CASE FOR KEEPING URIBE
I say to keep Uribe as a solid fielding backup at (3) infield positions plus he problably could handle 1B, although we don't need him to. If you think Uribe is on one of his 10 game infuego streaks, play the hell out of him.

THE CASE FOR TRADING URIBE
Uribe for all his faults is still a MLB veteran shortstop who has started for a WS Championship team. If a team comes along and wows Kenny with a deal he can't refuse, he should trade him.

soxfan13
02-27-2008, 09:51 AM
He can go deep, though. That's needed on the bench. Otherwise, can I vote none of the above? (Mack was okay).

Really? Borchard has shown he can hit 20+ HR in the majors?

Uribe not only brings some power off the bench, he also can play 3 IF positions and could probably play LF in a pinch.

I don't mind keeping Juan because of the flexibility/backup coverage he gives the team. Crede will also bring more in trade.

I am sorry but having power doesnt equal being a good player to have on the bench to come in and pinch hit. If the Sox have the winning run on third base in the bottom of the ninth and less then 2 outs (hell with 2 outs also) Uribe is the last person I want to see walking to the plate.

voodoochile
02-27-2008, 09:54 AM
I am sorry but having power doesnt equal being a good player to have on the bench to come in and pinch hit. If the Sox have the winning run on third base in the bottom of the ninth and less then 2 outs (hell with 2 outs also) Uribe is the last person I want to see walking to the plate.

How about when they're down 3 with two men on and two out and a lefty on the hill?

soxfan13
02-27-2008, 10:06 AM
How about when they're down 3 with two men on and two out and a lefty on the hill?

Give me someone that is not all or nothing, sorry I still dont want him up there. You have a better chance of hitting it out if you make contact.

cws05champ
02-27-2008, 10:48 AM
How about when they're down 3 with two men on and two out and a lefty on the hill?
Depends on whether the lefty throws a 57 footer in the dirt...then no, he should not be up there.:D:

spiffie
02-27-2008, 10:54 AM
Really? Borchard has shown he can hit 20+ HR in the majors?
Considering he hit 10 HR in 230 AB for the Marlins, I would expect that if given the 500+ AB's that Juan gets he would almost surely hit 20 HR's. He would also strike out 200 times and never get on base, but then that's not much different than Juan.

voodoochile
02-27-2008, 10:59 AM
Considering he hit 10 HR in 230 AB for the Marlins, I would expect that if given the 500+ AB's that Juan gets he would almost surely hit 20 HR's. He would also strike out 200 times and never get on base, but then that's not much different than Juan.

So he hasn't proven it...

spiffie
02-27-2008, 11:01 AM
So he hasn't proven it...
No, you're correct. He has not hit 20+ HR in the majors. It is merely a highly reasonable assumption that he would.

That said, I wouldn't want to see either one pinch hitting in anything before the 17th inning.

TomBradley72
02-27-2008, 11:02 AM
I'm getting pretty optimistic about this team for 2008...I think how KW plays his "final cards" and what he picks up in return will tell the tale for this year.

Crede, Uribe and Masset are all potential trade bait....let the other teams get a few weeks into camp...between injuries and player assessment...we might be able to get some real value in return and also dump some salaries that could free up money for a mid season acquisition if needed.

jabrch
02-27-2008, 11:13 AM
I wouldn't rush to trade Uribe until we know who is playing 2B. While he hasn't been great with the stick, he does do some things well, and provides us with solid D (last year was an off year) up the middle.

If we can get something good for him, then I'd do it. But I wouldn't dump him just to save money.

Carolina Kenny
02-27-2008, 02:22 PM
I'm getting pretty optimistic about this team for 2008...I think how KW plays his "final cards" and what he picks up in return will tell the tale for this year.

Crede, Uribe and Masset are all potential trade bait....let the other teams get a few weeks into camp...between injuries and player assessment...we might be able to get some real value in return and also dump some salaries that could free up money for a mid season acquisition if needed.

http://ia.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/M/2M/DN/4k/jN/wY/TZ/tF/kX/nB/na/B5/lM/B5/VM/5U/zM/1I/jN/5E/TM/B5/VM._CR0,0,346,346_SS90_.jpg (http://www.imdb.com/rg/photos-title/summary/media/rm2406455296/tt0052522)

There are no Untouchables on this team. Make Kenny a deal.

A. Cavatica
02-27-2008, 09:32 PM
Really? Borchard has shown he can hit 20+ HR in the majors?

Actually, yes: 26 HR in 716 career AB, and that's more home runs per at-bat than Uribe. As soxfan13 said, "having power doesnt equal being a good player to have on the bench to come in and pinch hit".

Uribe is much better than LTP, of course. Uribe has a respectable .427 career SLG and tons of defensive value. Power has very little to do with it.

PennStater98r
02-28-2008, 10:29 AM
That said, I wouldn't want to see either one pinch hitting in anything before the 17th inning.

You wouldn't? I'd love to see him pinch hitting in the bottom of the ninth against Bobby Jenks!

:bandance:

veeter
02-29-2008, 01:15 PM
Now the latest potential trade partner: Cincy Reds. SS Alex Gonzalez reportedly has a compression fracture in his knee...ouch. They have Jeff Keppinger and Juan Castro as replacements. Rotoworld calls Castro defensive replacement. I don't know, they could look Kenny's way.