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View Full Version : A Great One-Two Punch For The 2008 White Sox


MCHSoxFan
02-25-2008, 09:54 PM
Link:
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080225&content_id=2389426&vkey=spt2008news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

I have always wanted Ownes as the #1 hitter in 2008. I have enjoyed watching him since early June of 2007 (First time he played...Other than a couple times in 2006).

JermaineDye05
02-25-2008, 09:56 PM
Just read this a little bit earlier, only an intrasquad game but it's a good start. I'm a little worried about that tweaked groin, hopefully it doesn't turn into a Pods injury. Also good to see that Gavin had 2 scoreless innings.

Metalthrasher442
02-25-2008, 10:17 PM
Just read this a little bit earlier, only an intrasquad game but it's a good start. I'm a little worried about that tweaked groin, hopefully it doesn't turn into a Pods injury. Also good to see that Gavin had 2 scoreless innings.

My thoughts exactly. I hope Owens can say healthy. He can be devastating on the pads!

oeo
02-25-2008, 10:19 PM
My thoughts exactly. I hope Owens can say healthy. He can be devastating on the pads!

This is one thing about Owens that I've worried about since back in 2006. He seems to be Pods v2.0 in terms of being made of glass. He's always 'tweaking' something, and that goes back to his September call-up in 2006.

WhiteSox5187
02-25-2008, 10:24 PM
I saw him on the news today saying he wants to get a bunt basehit in every ST game. If he does that, he should leadoff in the regular season. His game plan should be to get on anyway possible.

Craig Grebeck
02-25-2008, 10:27 PM
If Owens is playing over Quentin I only pray KW intervenes.

You do not give up Chris Carter for a bench player. You do not bench guys like Carlos Quentin for guys like Jerry Owens. It's baseball 101. The awful decisions this organization makes personnel wise have finally caught up; unfortunately, this could be just another hiccup in the long line of terrible decisions (not having a viable backup for BA, Darin Erstad, trading Rob Mackowiak for no reason at all).

I am seriously worried about KW's health if he allows Ozzie to give Owens the most PA of all the Sox.

Huisj
02-25-2008, 10:28 PM
Team Thome and team Konerko. That's hilarious. Sounds like they're captains for some kind of celebrity softball game. But I guess it's a good sign that they're being looked to in some capacity as the leaders of the team.

ksimpson14
02-25-2008, 10:28 PM
NBC had a nice piece on him the other night on how he sets the bar high for himself. I think he said he's looking for 65 stolen bases

chisoxmike
02-25-2008, 10:29 PM
I'm hoping for a Richar, Cabrera 1-2 order.

QCIASOXFAN
02-25-2008, 10:29 PM
Richar still hasn't made it to camp yet?

WhiteSox5187
02-25-2008, 10:30 PM
If Owens is playing over Quentin I only pray KW intervenes.

You do not give up Chris Carter for a bench player. You do not bench guys like Carlos Quentin for guys like Jerry Owens. It's baseball 101. The awful decisions this organization makes personnel wise have finally caught up; unfortunately, this could be just another hiccup in the long line of terrible decisions (not having a viable backup for BA, Darin Erstad, trading Rob Mackowiak for no reason at all).

I am seriously worried about KW's health if he allows Ozzie to give Owens the most PA of all the Sox.
I'd rather have Owens speed that Quentin's power right now...I'm not suggesting that we just give Owens LF, but they should both have to earn it. Whoever has the better spring gets to start in LF, but if Owens has the better spring he'd be in LF and leading off. I don't think Quentin leadsoff.

ksimpson14
02-25-2008, 10:31 PM
Team Thome and team Konerko. That's hilarious. Sounds like they're captains for some kind of celebrity softball game. But I guess it's a good sign that they're being looked to in some capacity as the leaders of the team.

I like the vision of Kenny in a golf cart. I don't know why, it just makes me laugh. Like he's this scary guy who's always watching, under the radar. I remember in one of the regular season games I spotted him on the road just as a random guy in the crowd, maybe I'm just weird but I still kind of laugh thinking about it

That quote by Cabrera in that article is EXCELLENT

oeo
02-25-2008, 10:31 PM
If Owens is playing over Quentin I only pray KW intervenes.

You do not give up Chris Carter for a bench player. You do not bench guys like Carlos Quentin for guys like Jerry Owens. It's baseball 101. The awful decisions this organization makes personnel wise have finally caught up; unfortunately, this could be just another hiccup in the long line of terrible decisions (not having a viable backup for BA, Darin Erstad, trading Rob Mackowiak for no reason at all).

I am seriously worried about KW's health if he allows Ozzie to give Owens the most PA of all the Sox.

Quentin is not going to be a bench player for his entire career. That may be an option this year because having Owens leading off would be a best possible scenario for us. Quentin will most definitely be in RF in 2009.

If Owens is getting on base, I see no way you could be complaining. And if he's not, then he should lose his job. It's pretty simple for Owens...perform, or meet the pine.

ksimpson14
02-25-2008, 10:32 PM
I'd rather have Owens speed that Quentin's power right now...I'm not suggesting that we just give Owens LF, but they should both have to earn it. Whoever has the better spring gets to start in LF, but if Owens has the better spring he'd be in LF and leading off. I don't think Quentin leadsoff.

If Owens plays shouldn't we just have him in Center (and slide Swisher to LF?). I'm not as familiar with Swisher in CF, but I don't remember Owens being horrible at it

Frontman
02-25-2008, 10:35 PM
If Owens is playing over Quentin I only pray KW intervenes.

You do not give up Chris Carter for a bench player. You do not bench guys like Carlos Quentin for guys like Jerry Owens. It's baseball 101. The awful decisions this organization makes personnel wise have finally caught up; unfortunately, this could be just another hiccup in the long line of terrible decisions (not having a viable backup for BA, Darin Erstad, trading Rob Mackowiak for no reason at all).

I am seriously worried about KW's health if he allows Ozzie to give Owens the most PA of all the Sox.

And if Quentin isn't 100%, you'd prefer him over Owens?

Sounds like the Sox are coming to play their best baseball. Ozzie sounds like he's being smart in not pushing anyone too early.

And its the first intra-squad game. I highly doubt that the lineup today will be the lineup on Opening Day.

Craig Grebeck
02-25-2008, 10:38 PM
Quentin is not going to be a bench player for his entire career. That may be an option this year because having Owens leading off would be a best possible scenario for us. Quentin will most definitely be in RF in 2009.

If Owens is getting on base, I see no way you could be complaining. And if he's not, then he should lose his job. It's pretty simple for Owens...perform, or meet the pine.
It shouldn't be an option. We shouldn't be limiting his ABs - the kid needs PA at the big league level. He was great in 2006 and struggled due to injury in 2007. With his career progressing the way it has, there's no reason for him to spend another year on the bench - behind Jerry Owens of all people. Even if Owens gets on base at a 34-35% clip (which is not at all likely, IMO), his OPS will still be under .700. Why would we want to give the majority of our PA to a guy who can't perform at league average?

oeo
02-25-2008, 10:48 PM
It shouldn't be an option. We shouldn't be limiting his ABs - the kid needs PA at the big league level. He was great in 2006 and struggled due to injury in 2007. With his career progressing the way it has, there's no reason for him to spend another year on the bench - behind Jerry Owens of all people.

Sure there is: if Owens is giving us a better chance to win.

Even if Owens gets on base at a 34-35% clip (which is not at all likely, IMO), his OPS will still be under .700. Why would we want to give the majority of our PA to a guy who can't perform at league average?If Owens doesn't get on base at a minimum clip of .350, then he should lose his job...simple as that. I don't care that his OPS is below the league average...it's a bad measurement of a leadoff hitter, anyway. If Owens is getting on base and scoring runs, then he's doing his job. If he's not doing that, then he should lose his job.

I'll let you know how I feel again: Owens performs, he plays. If he doesn't, then Quentin should be starting. I like the idea of having a prototypical leadoff hitter at the top of the order...and if Owens is giving us that, then we'll be in great shape. If he's not, then he should be moved to pinch running duties.

This team made a decision to go into win now mode this year. I'm not necessarily saying I agreed with it, but that's the choice they made. If Owens does his job, he gives us a better chance to win than Quentin, and therefore should be starting.

And lets be honest, Quentin is going to get his ABs regardless. He can play both corner outfield positions, and I'd imagine with this team's depth that Thome should be getting more days off than in years past. Move Dye to DH, and that opens up a spot for Quentin. A tough lefty on the mound? Play Quentin, move Swisher to center. There are many ways to get Quentin his fair share of ABs, even if he's not a clear cut starter.

Vestigio
02-25-2008, 10:51 PM
I saw him on the news today saying he wants to get a bunt basehit in every ST game. If he does that, he should leadoff in the regular season. His game plan should be to get on anyway possible.

Sounds like Hawk got to him...

Metalthrasher442
02-25-2008, 10:54 PM
There's a lot of fuss about Owens starting over Quentin.

Quentin's still a little sore. I say we start the season off with Owens until Quentin feels absolutely 100% and if Owens is doing really well..well then we'll just have to keep him up..if he's not then we start Quentin.

Maybe Owens will get hurt when he starts..but at least that'll give Quentin time to heal 100% and I'd rather have only one of them injured than both.

Craig Grebeck
02-25-2008, 10:59 PM
Sure there is: if Owens is giving us a better chance to win.

If Owens doesn't get on base at a minimum clip of .350, then he should lose his job...simple as that. I don't care that his OPS is below the league average...it's a bad measurement of a leadoff hitter, anyway. If Owens is getting on base and scoring runs, then he's doing his job. If he's not doing that, then he should lose his job.

I'll let you know how I feel again: Owens performs, he plays. If he doesn't, then Quentin should be starting. I like the idea of having a prototypical leadoff hitter at the top of the order...and if Owens is giving us that, then we'll be in great shape. If he's not, then he should be moved to pinch running duties.

This team made a decision to go into win now mode this year. I'm not necessarily saying I agreed with it, but that's the choice they made. If Owens does his job, he gives us a better chance to win than Quentin, and therefore should be starting.

And lets be honest, Quentin is going to get his ABs regardless. He can play both corner outfield positions, and I'd imagine with this team's depth that Thome should be getting more days off than in years past. Move Dye to DH, and that opens up a spot for Quentin. A tough lefty on the mound? Play Quentin, move Swisher to center. There are many ways to get Quentin his fair share of ABs, even if he's not a clear cut starter.
Bull****. OPS is a good measurement of every hitter. Leadoff is not a position - just because you hit first doesn't mean you are excused from hitting the occasional XBH.

SoxxoS
02-25-2008, 11:01 PM
why are people talking about OPS for a leadoff guy?

Anyone think Ozzie Guillen mirrors what Lou Brown said to Willie Mays Hayes to Jerry Owens?

"you heet ball on da groun and leg deem out - non of this flyball bull****"

Craig Grebeck
02-25-2008, 11:04 PM
why are people talking about OPS for a leadoff guy?

Anyone think Ozzie Guillen mirrors what Lou Brown said to Willie Mays Hayes to Jerry Owens?

"you heet ball on da groun and leg deem out - non of this flyball bull****"
Because it's an accurate measurement of a hitter. OBP>SLG, but that doesn't necessarily mean that XBH are useless. Why are we so opposed to power? It's not as though Quentin is LTP - the guy is legit. He has performed in the bigs before and is fantastic defensively.

I can't think of too many organizations that would even consider Jerry Owens instead of Carlos Quentin.

jabrch
02-25-2008, 11:04 PM
If Owens is getting on base, I see no way you could be complaining.

oeo - this is WSI. I find no way some of our posters could NOT complain.

I'd love to see JO continue to improve on the way he played in the second half. If he does that, he will find his ABs - and we will be a better team because of it.

oeo
02-25-2008, 11:05 PM
Bull****. OPS is a good measurement of every hitter. Leadoff is not a position - just because you hit first doesn't mean you are excused from hitting the occasional XBH.

Agreed, yet I don't care if he's hitting XBH if he's scoring runs. The job of a leadoff hitter is to get on base and score runs. I don't care if he singles/walks, and steals second and third or triples as long as he crosses home plate.

WhiteSox5187
02-25-2008, 11:05 PM
Bull****. OPS is a good measurement of every hitter. Leadoff is not a position - just because you hit first doesn't mean you are excused from hitting the occasional XBH.
So if Owens has a .400 OBP, scores a ton of runs and has a lousy OPS, you wouldn't want that? I'd make that trade in a heartbeat. Get on and score. I don't care if he gets on through a double, triple, HR or an error, just get on and score.

jabrch
02-25-2008, 11:07 PM
If Owens plays shouldn't we just have him in Center (and slide Swisher to LF?). I'm not as familiar with Swisher in CF, but I don't remember Owens being horrible at it

It's not an easy call. Owens has a weak arm - and isn't particularly sound off the jump - but he uses speed to recover. I haven't seen enough of Swish in CF, but in order to be considered an option at his size, he's gotta to be pretty good at reading the ball off the bat, but he's not as fast. He's got a very strong arm for a CF. Given that we don't have much foul territory, I'm ok with Owens in LF and Swish in CF. I'll trust the coaches on this one - they will watch these guys in ST much more than us and make the best call.

JermaineDye05
02-25-2008, 11:10 PM
If Owens is playing over Quentin I only pray KW intervenes.

You do not give up Chris Carter for a bench player. You do not bench guys like Carlos Quentin for guys like Jerry Owens. It's baseball 101. The awful decisions this organization makes personnel wise have finally caught up; unfortunately, this could be just another hiccup in the long line of terrible decisions (not having a viable backup for BA, Darin Erstad, trading Rob Mackowiak for no reason at all).

I am seriously worried about KW's health if he allows Ozzie to give Owens the most PA of all the Sox.

Don't be surprised if Quentin ends up replacing Dye or Swisher in the outfield. By replacing Swisher I mean, Swisher moving to first with Pauly being traded or perhaps moving to DH when Thome is gone.

Craig Grebeck
02-25-2008, 11:11 PM
Agreed, yet I don't care if he's hitting XBH if he's scoring runs. The job of a leadoff hitter is to get on base and score runs. I don't care if he singles/walks, and steals second and third or triples as long as he crosses home plate.
Yes, him crossing home plate is wholly dependent on those behind him. I just can't see Owens getting on base enough to make up for his lack of power. His poor defense isn't helping him either. If Quentin was not on this team, I understand Owens playing - but when you have a guy with the talent of Quentin who needs his shot NOW, then it is a ridiculous notion to play Owens.

I will always stand by my assertion that a player who can hit his way onto 2nd or even across home plate is more valuable than a guy who can slap his way on then *maybe* steal second.

jabrch
02-25-2008, 11:11 PM
Don't be surprised if Quentin ends up replacing Dye or Swisher in the outfield. By replacing Swisher I mean, Swisher moving to first with Pauly being traded or perhaps moving to DH when Thome is gone.

I think that's the 2009 plan...

Metalthrasher442
02-25-2008, 11:13 PM
I think that's the 2009 plan...

I wouldn't mind trading Dye in '09 if Quentin lives up to it and looks good enough to replace him.

I just don't want to get rid of Swish or Paulie haha

oeo
02-25-2008, 11:13 PM
Yes, him crossing home plate is wholly dependent on those behind him. I just can't see Owens getting on base enough to make up for his lack of power. His poor defense isn't helping him either. If Quentin was not on this team, I understand Owens playing - but when you have a guy with the talent of Quentin who needs his shot NOW, then it is a ridiculous notion to play Owens.

You're obviously still misunderstanding me. If Owens is not getting on base enough, then he shouldn't be playing. My whole argument assumes that Owens is getting on base and doing his job. So let me say it again...if he's not doing that, then he shouldn't be playing. If he is, he gives us a better chance to win and therefore should be playing.

Metalthrasher442
02-25-2008, 11:14 PM
You're obviously still misunderstanding me. If Owens is not getting on base enough, then he shouldn't be playing. My whole argument assumes that Owens is getting on base and doing his job. So let me say it again...if he's not doing that, then he shouldn't be playing. If he is, he gives us a better chance to win and therefore should be playing.

Isn't that what everyone thinks?

oeo
02-25-2008, 11:16 PM
Isn't that what everyone thinks?

Yes, but Craig thinks Ozzie will play Owens regardless, which is why he's arguing. If that's the case, then KW should lose it. But if Owens is performing, there shouldn't be any whining from KW or WSI.

Craig Grebeck
02-25-2008, 11:17 PM
So if Owens has a .400 OBP, scores a ton of runs and has a lousy OPS, you wouldn't want that? I'd make that trade in a heartbeat. Get on and score. I don't care if he gets on through a double, triple, HR or an error, just get on and score.
If Owens has a .400 OBP, that means he's hitting .350, at least. In other words, if Owens' OBP is .400, I will eat my hat.

I do find it funny that you mentioned a .400 OBP - considering Quentin's career low OBP in the minors is .422! Career high was .443 as a 21 year old in AA.

Owens' high? .393 - while sporting a robust .406 SLG and getting caught stealing 20 times out of 58 attempts! This also happened in AA...as a 24 year old. Career low? .328.

Craig Grebeck
02-25-2008, 11:19 PM
Yes, but Craig thinks Ozzie will play Owens regardless, which is why he's arguing. If that's the case, then KW should lose it. But if Owens is performing, there shouldn't be any whining from KW or WSI.
You and I have different definitions of performing. Even if Quentin has a season around his 2006 in AZ - he will outperform Owens. If Quentin hits .260, he'll get on base more often than Owens will if he hits .290 - not to mention Quentin's stellar defense and added power.

Metalthrasher442
02-25-2008, 11:22 PM
I would rather see a 100% healthy Quentin on the White Sox than a 100% Owens. I just think Quentin is better.

But we won't see it happening. because we need a leadoff hitter pretty bad..and I think Owens can do the best job out of everybody. So I want to see him start opening day.

jabrch
02-25-2008, 11:23 PM
I wouldn't mind trading Dye in '09 if Quentin lives up to it and looks good enough to replace him.

I just don't want to get rid of Swish or Paulie haha

Swish is likely here for a while. Paulie has a short window until his 10/5 rights come. Once we get there, he's likely staying for a while. Dye is most likely to get traded. Thome could be let to walk after this year if he doesn't get enough ABs to guarantee more time.

Either way, I think KW acquired CQ with the knowledge that he will have somewhere for him for sure in 09, and that he may be able to contribute in 08.

oeo
02-25-2008, 11:32 PM
You and I have different definitions of performing. Even if Quentin has a season around his 2006 in AZ - he will outperform Owens. If Quentin hits .260, he'll get on base more often than Owens will if he hits .290 - not to mention Quentin's stellar defense and added power.

No, I don't think we do. What we do differ on is on their contribution to the team.

Do I think Quentin's the better player? Without a doubt. However, putting Owens in the leadoff spot makes the entire lineup better. Cabrera can move down to #2 where he's much better suited, and whoever would take over that #2 slot (quite possibly Swisher) can be moved down lower in the order. Owens has an opportunity to bring more to this lineup than Quentin will this year.

Metalthrasher442
02-25-2008, 11:41 PM
Swish is likely here for a while. Paulie has a short window until his 10/5 rights come. Once we get there, he's likely staying for a while. Dye is most likely to get traded. Thome could be let to walk after this year if he doesn't get enough ABs to guarantee more time.

Either way, I think KW acquired CQ with the knowledge that he will have somewhere for him for sure in 09, and that he may be able to contribute in 08.

That's what I've wanted for a while..after JDs MVP caliber year.. he's just been getting a little old haha.

I'd hate to see Thome walk..but it could open a lot of possibilities for other players on this ball club.

DumpJerry
02-25-2008, 11:47 PM
That story has me very worried.



Sisco pitched three perfect innings. Our hitters must really suck.

Corlose 15
02-26-2008, 06:25 AM
No, I don't think we do. What we do differ on is on their contribution to the team.

Do I think Quentin's the better player? Without a doubt. However, putting Owens in the leadoff spot makes the entire lineup better. Cabrera can move down to #2 where he's much better suited, and whoever would take over that #2 slot (quite possibly Swisher) can be moved down lower in the order. Owens has an opportunity to bring more to this lineup than Quentin will this year.

If Owens is able to perform and Richar ever shows up you end up with a lineup like this.

Owens L
Cabrera R
Thome L
Konerko R
Swisher S
Dye R
Pierzynski L
Fields R
Richar L

Not only are you able to slide Cabrera down to a spot in the order where he is much more likely to succeed but you also push Swisher down into an RBI producing spot and you have a balanced LR lineup all the way through with good power in the middle and above average to great speed at 8,9,1,2.

Hopefully with Owens added muscle this year he'll not only be able to bunt to get on more often but he'll be able to hit a few more doubles, that combined with his ability to steal will make up for his low OPS.

With the versatility that Swisher provides, plus Ozzie's preference for giving guys off and mixing lineups up Quentin is going to get plenty of playing time.

Frontman
02-26-2008, 08:09 AM
why are people talking about OPS for a leadoff guy?

Anyone think Ozzie Guillen mirrors what Lou Brown said to Willie Mays Hayes to Jerry Owens?

"you heet ball on da groun and leg deem out - non of this flyball bull****"

You know, I read that and actually can hear Ozzie saying it. :D:

Optipessimism
02-26-2008, 08:31 AM
If Owens shows he is good enough to start it will only be a good thing for us. I don't see how Owens starting hurts Quentin considering:

1. Quentin could DH in place of Thome against most LHP.
2. When Paulie needs a day off, Swish can slide to 1B and Quentin can start in the corners.
3. When Owens needs a day off, Swish can move to CF and Quentin can start in one of the corners.
4. When Dye needs a day off Quentin can cover.
5. When Swisher needs a day off Quentin can cover.
6. If ANY of Owens, Swisher, Dye, Konerko, or Thome go down with an injury this opens up an at least semi-permanent spot for Quentin. Someone is going to get hurt. This is inevitable.

Quentin will get his AB's. He'll have his shot to play regularly and prove himself at the major league level. The best case scenario IMO is that both Quentin and Owens prove themselves as starters. If that happens it would allow the Sox to deal either Dye or Paulie, maybe even both, for starting pitching and/or a CF.

balke
02-26-2008, 09:43 AM
Wow, if Swisher gets knocked out of the top of the order, the #5 and 6 guys definitely need to crank them out this season.

TomBradley72
02-26-2008, 10:47 AM
Quentin is not going to be a bench player for his entire career. That may be an option this year because having Owens leading off would be a best possible scenario for us. Quentin will most definitely be in RF in 2009.

If Owens is getting on base, I see no way you could be complaining. And if he's not, then he should lose his job. It's pretty simple for Owens...perform, or meet the pine.

Quentin might be a great prospect. But at age 25 (turning 26 in August) he hasn't accomplished anything to earn guaranteed playing time or to assume he's our everyday OF a year from now. We've rolled the dice to win this year...if Owens give us the best shot (as a "catalyst" like Pods was in 2005)...then Quentin will have to earn his way into the lineup when he does get in against tough LHs, etc.

After all KWs moves and trading prospects...we still don't have a clear starting CF, or lead off hitter, or starting 2B....between spring training and potential trades of Crede and/or Uribe...it may be a few weeks before the pieces settle into place.

TheVulture
02-26-2008, 07:54 PM
The Sox didn't roll the dice to win this year - every player KW obtained, other than Cabrera, is lined up to be a part of this team for years. Even the Cabrera move is a step up for the Sox' long term strength, as he would garner a higher pick if he leaves for free agency. Room has or is being made for a number of guys already on the team who will hopefully be contributors for the next several years. Add to that the payroll flexibility that KW has cultivated, and it seems to me the team has been set up to be competitive over the course of the next 4-5 years, including this year, but especially in the future.

jcw218
02-26-2008, 08:15 PM
That story has me very worried.



Sisco pitched three perfect innings. Our hitters must really suck.

You might want to check that again. I only saw that Sisco threw a perfect inning.