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View Full Version : Sox possibly looking to move Thome?


diehardRLsoxfan
02-25-2008, 02:07 PM
http://www.insidebayarea.com/sports/ci_8357797

They mention it briefly at the end of the article. I wonder who would want him, and what we could possibly receive in return.

If nothing else the article is a good read on Swisher.

spawn
02-25-2008, 02:12 PM
That should not be an issue. Swisher is projected as the starting center fielder "The treadmill is part of my routine now," he said though it's likely the White Sox will put out feelers on designated hitter Jim Thome. Moving Thome would allow Chicago to slide Paul Konerko into Thome's role and land Swisher at first base, his best defensive pitcher.

Nowhere does it say they're looking to move him. It's of this writers opinion they may look to move him. This is much ado about nothing. Also, I didn't know he Swisher was a pitcher.

ST games can't begin soon enough. :rolleyes:

DumpJerry
02-25-2008, 02:12 PM
The article says it is "likely" the Sox will out "feelers" on Thome. Not that they are thinking about it or are doing, just the writer's scattered thoughts as he recovers from the realization his A's got the raw end of the deal.

munchman33
02-25-2008, 02:55 PM
I wouldn't trade Thome unless we were looking to sign Barry Bonds (WHICH I AM NOT CONDONING BY THE WAY). He's a huge left-handed presence in the lineup. We would be foolish to move him. Losing him negates any affect Kenny was trying to make to the lineup this offseason.

ksimpson14
02-25-2008, 03:24 PM
I love Thome but I'd consider it, move Fields or Dye to DH, try to get some decent return, or at least help out the minors.

Tekijawa
02-25-2008, 03:31 PM
I love Thome but I'd consider it, move Fields or Dye to DH, try to get some decent return, or at least help out the minors.
Gio Gonzalez?

Huisj
02-25-2008, 03:40 PM
ST games can't begin soon enough. :rolleyes:

I agree.

The even funnier part about that statement thought is that in three weeks, it'll be "regular season games can't begin soon enough."

And then with two weeks left in September, it'll be "postseason games can't begin soon enough."

And then after the 4-game sweep of an AL team in the ALCS, it'll be "The World Series can't start soon enough" while we all sit around waiting for a crappy NL series that gets stretched way out because of Fox to finish up.

spiffie
02-25-2008, 03:47 PM
If he could bring back a solid bullpen arm and a high-ceiling prospect I'd take my chances (especially if we trade Crede as well), free up some cash for possible midseason help, and go into the year with an OD lineup of:
Cabrera - SS
Quentin - LF
Swisher - RF
Konerko - 1B
Dye - DH
Fields - 3B
AJ - C
Richar - 2B
Owens - CF

With Cabrera at the top and Richar and Owens at the bottom there's speed on both ends of the lineup. They will still likely hit 200 HR with that starting nine, and you shore up the pen and the minors, or at least get some pieces that you can flip at midseason if we need one more arm for a pennant drive.

doublem23
02-25-2008, 04:00 PM
If he could bring back a solid bullpen arm and a high-ceiling prospect I'd take my chances (especially if we trade Crede as well), free up some cash for possible midseason help, and go into the year with an OD lineup of:
Cabrera - SS
Quentin - LF
Swisher - RF
Konerko - 1B
Dye - DH
Fields - 3B
AJ - C
Richar - 2B
Owens - CF

With Cabrera at the top and Richar and Owens at the bottom there's speed on both ends of the lineup. They will still likely hit 200 HR with that starting nine, and you shore up the pen and the minors, or at least get some pieces that you can flip at midseason if we need one more arm for a pennant drive.

I think that line-up would struggle to match the 2007 Sox's output of 693 runs.

spiffie
02-25-2008, 04:06 PM
I think that line-up would struggle to match the 2007 Sox's output of 693 runs.
I disagree. You're adding someone in Swisher who probably matches Thome's output, only with more consistency (as opposed to Jim's sub-200 BA against LHP), Cabrera is a massive upgrade over Uribe, Fields is likely to improve over last year, and Quentin hopefully provides a nice OBP boost. Unless you think Thome, Uribe, and Pods/Mackowiak is a better threesome offensively than Swisher/Quentin/Cabrera.

Foulke You
02-25-2008, 04:07 PM
It is very interesting to entertain the idea. I'm a Thome fan and you can't underestimate the "scare" factor he brings to the lineup similar what the Big Hurt brought to the table. However, moving Jim could definitely solve the ongoing "what to do with Crede/Fields?" question. You could slide Fields into the DH spot and have Crede at 3B. If someone takes Thome's full contract and Crede leaves after '08, you now have just over $20 million to spend on free agents for '09. If Fields does hit 35HR 100RBI as projected, you may not skip a beat too much in the power dept. You'd lose some OBP and walks but the power *could* be similar. I'm not advocating this plan, I'm just throwing it out there as a possible idea. Any thoughts?

btrain929
02-25-2008, 04:16 PM
If he could bring back a solid bullpen arm and a high-ceiling prospect I'd take my chances (especially if we trade Crede as well), free up some cash for possible midseason help, and go into the year with an OD lineup of:
Cabrera - SS
Quentin - LF
Swisher - RF
Konerko - 1B
Dye - DH
Fields - 3B
AJ - C
Richar - 2B
Owens - CF

With Cabrera at the top and Richar and Owens at the bottom there's speed on both ends of the lineup. They will still likely hit 200 HR with that starting nine, and you shore up the pen and the minors, or at least get some pieces that you can flip at midseason if we need one more arm for a pennant drive.

If this lineup goes against a lefty, you're looking at 6 right handed hitters to start the lineup, followed by 3 lefties. Even if you're facing a righty, the last 2/3rds of your lineup is RRR-LLL......aka a manager's/bullpen's dream lineup to face.

Craig Grebeck
02-25-2008, 04:16 PM
I disagree. You're adding someone in Swisher who probably matches Thome's output, only with more consistency (as opposed to Jim's sub-200 BA against LHP), Cabrera is a massive upgrade over Uribe, Fields is likely to improve over last year, and Quentin hopefully provides a nice OBP boost. Unless you think Thome, Uribe, and Pods/Mackowiak is a better threesome offensively than Swisher/Quentin/Cabrera.
You are basically replacing Thome with Owens. That is embarrassing.

spiffie
02-25-2008, 04:24 PM
You are basically replacing Thome with Owens. That is embarrassing.
And you're replacing Uribe with Swisher. And Podsednik with Cabrera. But don't pay attention to those parts.

NoNeckEra
02-25-2008, 04:27 PM
It is very interesting to entertain the idea. I'm a Thome fan and you can't underestimate the "scare" factor he brings to the lineup similar what the Big Hurt brought to the table. However, moving Jim could definitely solve the ongoing "what to do with Crede/Fields?" question. You could slide Fields into the DH spot and have Crede at 3B. If someone takes Thome's full contract and Crede leaves after '08, you now have just over $20 million to spend on free agents for '09. If Fields does hit 35HR 100RBI as projected, you may not skip a beat too much in the power dept. You'd lose some OBP and walks but the power *could* be similar. I'm not advocating this plan, I'm just throwing it out there as a possible idea. Any thoughts?
I don't know what A.L. teams are looking for a DH and doubt that an N.L. team is going to put their faith in Thome playing 150 games in the field. That being said, while I love the guy, I said after last season's disaster that change for the sake of change was good, and if we can change the makeup of this team to add speed and flexibility, I'm all for it. The concept behind getting Thome in the first place, has come and gone. Maybe it IS time to move on.

kittle42
02-25-2008, 04:32 PM
You're adding someone in Swisher who probably matches Thome's output

That's quite the compliment to Swisher.

spiffie
02-25-2008, 04:38 PM
That's quite the compliment to Swisher.
I don't think it is that far off. His numbers are highly likely to improve here at USCF from last year. Even if it adds just 6 HR to his numbers he's looking at a 370-380 OBP and 470-480 SLG. Thome last year gave us a 973, but with a SLG drop of 40 points from 2006. I would be likely to assume that number to stay the same or decrease, simply due to being one year older and more sore. Jim will give us a more walks obviously, but Swisher also brings a much greater ability to move from first to third or second to home that Thome doesn't bring. Numerically Thome will likely have a better year than Swisher, but I don't see the difference between their production and what they bring to a lineup as all that great at this point.

Foulke You
02-25-2008, 04:40 PM
I don't know what A.L. teams are looking for a DH and doubt that an N.L. team is going to put their faith in Thome playing 150 games in the field.
That is very true. Thome is basically a DH at this point in his career and which AL team is in need of him? The only contending team that is a little light in the DH spot is Seattle with Vidro there. Do we really want to help another AL contender? Ideally, if you traded him, you'd like to send him the NL where he can't hurt you but as you pointed out, you'd be asking a lot for Jim to stay healthy for 145 games playing 1B and $11 million for Thome is too much for a 1B platoon player. For better or worse, we're probably going to see big Jim with the Sox in '08. Besides, I just got the new '08 pocket schedule and it has Buehrle and Thome on the front.:D:

Garland_IS_God
02-25-2008, 05:36 PM
If it were to happen I'd move Konerko to DH, Swisher stays in the outfield, resign Crede to play 3rd and move Fields 1B.

santo=dorf
02-25-2008, 05:57 PM
I disagree. You're adding someone in Swisher who probably matches Thome's output, only with more consistency (as opposed to Jim's sub-200 BA against LHP), Cabrera is a massive upgrade over Uribe, Fields is likely to improve over last year, and Quentin hopefully provides a nice OBP boost. Unless you think Thome, Uribe, and Pods/Mackowiak is a better threesome offensively than Swisher/Quentin/Cabrera.
How does Swisher "probably" match Thome's output?

I'd rather have Jim Thome crush the hell out of right handers in 66% of PA's and suck against LHP in his other 33% PA's than be a consistent .900 OPS guy (something Swisher has not been close to.) I'd make sense for Ozzie to rest him more, specifically against LHP.

JorgeFabregas
02-25-2008, 06:29 PM
You are basically replacing Thome with Owens. That is embarrassing.
That's what I logged on to say.

JorgeFabregas
02-25-2008, 06:30 PM
And you're replacing Uribe with Swisher. And Podsednik with Cabrera. But don't pay attention to those parts.
Those players are already on the team. You don't add them by trading Thome.

santo=dorf
02-25-2008, 06:53 PM
I don't think it is that far off. His numbers are highly likely to improve here at USCF from last year. Even if it adds just 6 HR to his numbers he's looking at a 370-380 OBP and 470-480 SLG. Thome last year gave us a 973, but with a SLG drop of 40 points from 2006. I would be likely to assume that number to stay the same or decrease, simply due to being one year older and more sore. Jim will give us a more walks obviously, but Swisher also brings a much greater ability to move from first to third or second to home that Thome doesn't bring. Numerically Thome will likely have a better year than Swisher, but I don't see the difference between their production and what they bring to a lineup as all that great at this point.
So Thome with a 40 point drop in SLG% still out OPS'd Swisher's best season by over 100 points. No biggie.

:hawk
"Stretch!"

ksimpson14
02-25-2008, 11:22 PM
You are basically replacing Thome with Owens. That is embarrassing.

To be fair, we were comparing to the 07 results, not the 08 that hasn't happened. Also, some of it may be compensated by what we'd get back and Fields getting more playing time if Crede does stay

FedEx227
02-25-2008, 11:36 PM
Those players are already on the team. You don't add them by trading Thome.

What spiffle was referring to was somebody saying you were replacing Owens with Thome, which is partly true, but that poster negated the fact that we upgraded tremendously with Cabrera and Swisher, so it just isn't an even swap of Owens for Thome.

guillen4life13
02-26-2008, 12:58 AM
If he could bring back a solid bullpen arm and a high-ceiling prospect I'd take my chances (especially if we trade Crede as well), free up some cash for possible midseason help, and go into the year with an OD lineup of:
Cabrera - SS
Quentin - LF
Swisher - RF
Konerko - 1B
Dye - DH
Fields - 3B
AJ - C
Richar - 2B
Owens - CF

With Cabrera at the top and Richar and Owens at the bottom there's speed on both ends of the lineup. They will still likely hit 200 HR with that starting nine, and you shore up the pen and the minors, or at least get some pieces that you can flip at midseason if we need one more arm for a pennant drive.

I like the players, though my order would be slightly different.

CF Owens
SS OCab
1B Swisher
DH Konerko
LF Dye
3B Fields
C Pierzynski
RF Quentin
2B Richar/Ramirez

If Owens doesn't perform well as a leadoff hitter, then I'd move towards the order you propose. Or call BA or Ramirez (if Richar holds 2B down nicely) up and put him in CF hitting 9th with Owens as a bench player with Cabrera leading off.

I have a feeling BA is going to turn some heads this spring. Either he gets traded or he makes the opening day roster.

I think Dye would be a legitimate trade chip for the Sox also if Quentin and Owens can do well. It would be ****ty to trade him after he signed the extension, but it would make sense. In the very unlikely event that all 3 (BA, Owens and Quentin) can start playing at a decent standard, you would have a damn good defensive outfield with decent offensive production. I still see BA as being a .270-.280, 20HR potential guy. He's only 25 and he's starting to say the right things.

My ideal lineup of the future would be:

LF Owens
SS OCab
1B Swish
DH Konerko
3B Fields
RF Quentin
C Pierzynski
CF Ramirez/Anderson
2B Richar/Ramirez

Who knows though.

Frontman
02-26-2008, 08:15 AM
These are all possible lineups; but it still doesn't do what the columnist says the Sox would do:

Put Swisher at first.

It would make far more sense both money and lineup wise to move Paul, as you then can move Swisher to first; your outfield would be Fields/Quentin/Dye/Owens; you still have a power hitting leftie.

I still think we'll see Crede moved before Thome; unless the deal is a dream one.

soxtalker
02-26-2008, 09:02 AM
Isn't Thome almost impossible to trade? I thought that he had a full no-trade clause, and that he waived that for the Phillies in order to come back home to Chicago.

guillen4life13
02-26-2008, 09:27 AM
Isn't Thome almost impossible to trade? I thought that he had a full no-trade clause, and that he waived that for the Phillies in order to come back home to Chicago.

If Thome were to be traded to a contender, I don't think he would mind too much. He doesn't have a ring and he's getting old.

veeter
02-26-2008, 09:58 AM
As I rack my brain for any scenario in which the Sox could re-sign Crede, moving Thome is the only way. Re-sign Joe,...Fields to DH. Then work on rotating the guys from day to day. The Sox would be too right handed I suppose, but losing Joe's glove (if healthy) is going to hurt bad. I've been bashed before, but I don't care. I can't wait until Thome is gone.

Taliesinrk
02-26-2008, 10:04 AM
As I rack my brain for any scenario in which the Sox could re-sign Crede, moving Thome is the only way. Re-sign Joe,...Fields to DH. Then work on rotating the guys from day to day. The Sox would be too right handed I suppose, but losing Joe's glove (if healthy) is going to hurt bad. I've been bashed before, but I don't care. I can't wait until Thome is gone.

I think I agree here. I disagree with the last sentence, but other than that, it looks good

sircaffey1
02-26-2008, 11:12 AM
As I rack my brain for any scenario in which the Sox could re-sign Crede, moving Thome is the only way. Re-sign Joe,...Fields to DH. Then work on rotating the guys from day to day. The Sox would be too right handed I suppose, but losing Joe's glove (if healthy) is going to hurt bad. I've been bashed before, but I don't care. I can't wait until Thome is gone.

We're paying Jim around $7 million per, and you can't wait to get rid of him in order to resign Joe for ~$10 mil per? Personally, I can't wait until Crede signs a long-term contract elsewhere so we can put all this Crede crap behind us.

Frontman
02-26-2008, 11:33 AM
We're paying Jim around $7 million per, and you can't wait to get rid of him in order to resign Joe for ~$10 mil per? Personally, I can't wait until Crede signs a long-term contract elsewhere so we can put all this Boras crap behind us.

Fixed it for you, but I'm in full agreement. If you have two players, and one wants to stay and is worth something to your team, you keep that player. Jim likes Chicago and the Sox fanbase. Joe wants to go earn the big paycheck.

And moving Thome to have Fields be the DH does nothing to improve Field's fielding, which is what the Sox will need come 2009, as Joe will move on.

veeter
02-26-2008, 11:38 AM
We're paying Jim around $7 million per, and you can't wait to get rid of him in order to resign Joe for ~$10 mil per? Personally, I can't wait until Crede signs a long-term contract elsewhere so we can put all this Crede crap behind us.We'll agree to disagree here, but to me Joe IS worth more because he plays gold glove defense. Defense is kind of important. ANd with my plan, Josh wouldn't have to play third, because Joe would still be there. This will all be put to rest when Joe leaves, but I'm merely pointing out his glove is going to be sorely missed.

Frontman
02-26-2008, 11:41 AM
We'll agree to disagree here, but to me Joe IS worth more because he plays gold glove defense. Defense is kind of important. ANd with my plan, Josh wouldn't have to play third, because Joe would still be there. This will all be put to rest when Joe leaves, but I'm merely pointing out his glove is going to be sorely missed.

Which is why Joe needs to be moved sooner rather than later. Either way, I feel that Josh Fields will be the starting 3rd baseman in 2009, if not this season.

Moving Thome just to free up money isn't going to get Joe to stay. Boras takes his players to Free Agency; and if Joe moves on after we trade Thome, all we did was let go YET ANOTHER HoF caliber player. Thome is on the decline, yes. But he's also a far better hitter at 80%, than Josh is at 100% health.

veeter
02-26-2008, 11:49 AM
Which is why Joe needs to be moved sooner rather than later. Either way, I feel that Josh Fields will be the starting 3rd baseman in 2009, if not this season.

Moving Thome just to free up money isn't going to get Joe to stay. Boras takes his players to Free Agency; and if Joe moves on after we trade Thome, all we did was let go YET ANOTHER HoF caliber player. Thome is on the decline, yes. But he's also a far better hitter at 80%, than Josh is at 100% health.I strongly disagree with the last part. They're virtually the same at his point. What Josh gives away in avg., it's made up by the fact Thome can't hit a lefty to save his life. They both have huge power and production. Josh runs way better, but Jim draws a lot of walks. Given the fact that Josh is going up and Jim is going down: I'll take Josh.

kittle42
02-26-2008, 11:52 AM
I strongly disagree with the last part. They're virtually the same at his point. What Josh gives away in avg., it's made up by the fact Thome can't hit a lefty to save his life. They both have huge power and production. Josh runs way better, but Jim draws a lot of walks. Given the fact that Josh is going up and Jim is going down: I'll take Josh.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside of a select few here who would say Thome and Fields are "virtually the same" on Feb. 26, 2008. That's just ridiculous.

Frontman
02-26-2008, 01:08 PM
I strongly disagree with the last part. They're virtually the same at his point. What Josh gives away in avg., it's made up by the fact Thome can't hit a lefty to save his life. They both have huge power and production. Josh runs way better, but Jim draws a lot of walks. Given the fact that Josh is going up and Jim is going down: I'll take Josh.

For a long term investment, absolutely. But Crede isn't going to remain long term. Why not keep both the whily ol' vet and the up and coming star, and let the "Agent works for me, except when dealing with long term contracts" player move on?

veeter
02-26-2008, 02:03 PM
For a long term investment, absolutely. But Crede isn't going to remain long term. Why not keep both the whily ol' vet and the up and coming star, and let the "Agent works for me, except when dealing with long term contracts" player move on?Well, that's what's going to happen. A lot of people here are really bothered by his Borass alliance. And I hate Borass as much as the next guy. But I still like Joe. I just hope the 'ol vet proves me wrong and helps hoist another trophy.

Noneck
02-26-2008, 08:40 PM
I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside of a select few here who would say Thome and Fields are "virtually the same" on Feb. 26, 2008. That's just ridiculous.

Fields has true value in his age, his contract, the possibility of being of value in the field and of course the possibility of being a quality player for many years to come.

Thome is aging quickly, has no value as a position player, his salary places him in the not tradeable category unless the Sox eat some of the salary and his best years are definitely behind him. The best he will ever be from here on out is a platoon DH.

I hope you aren't one of the few that thinks Thome has more worth than Fields to any team in baseball as of Feb. 26, 2008.

diehardRLsoxfan
02-26-2008, 08:49 PM
At the risk of sounding completely uninformed, when does Thome's contract run out?

Frontman
02-26-2008, 10:56 PM
At the risk of sounding completely uninformed, when does Thome's contract run out?

This season, with a club option for next season; if I'm not mistaken.

Craig Grebeck
02-26-2008, 11:17 PM
Veeter, cut the bull****. You can't wait until Thome is gone? Give it up. Your agenda is tired, and your complete lack of understanding of baseball is ridiculous.

voodoochile
02-26-2008, 11:20 PM
This season, with a club option for next season; if I'm not mistaken.

The option vests automatically if he has 1000 PA during the 2007-8 seasons. He had about 550 last year.

Tragg
02-27-2008, 12:01 AM
Thome is an elite LH hitter.
The solution to his struggles against lefties is not to get rid of him, but to have a good bench bat and/or give other starters a day of rest in the field and let them DH, if necessary.

drewcifer
02-27-2008, 12:16 AM
Jim Thome is arguably one of the best #3 hitters EVER. I can't believe what I'm reading...Swisher/Fields/Crede filling his spot without losing something.... Blasphemy.

We had a bad 4,5,6 production last year boys and girls.. But Jim was there. On base, as he always is. And driving in runs and slugging. Overall, he has STUPID numbers hitting on even just 1 side of the plate. Career OPS off the map.

He does what a 3 is supposed to do and better than almost everyone (Papi is about the only person I can think of who might be better today - his career doesn't even sniff Jim's jock).

Good Lord....

diehardRLsoxfan
02-27-2008, 12:43 AM
Jim Thome is arguably one of the best #3 hitters EVER. I can't believe what I'm reading...Swisher/Fields/Crede filling his spot without losing something.... Blasphemy.

We had a bad 4,5,6 production last year boys and girls.. But Jim was there. On base, as he always is. And driving in runs and slugging. Overall, he has STUPID numbers hitting on even just 1 side of the plate. Career OPS off the map.

He does what a 3 is supposed to do and better than almost everyone (Papi is about the only person I can think of who might be better).

Good Lord....

Best EVER? I'd say that is getting a little carried away there my friend. One of the best of his time? Yes. Ever? No way.

Last year ten players had a higher OPS than he did.

He struck out forty more times than he walked.

he is TERRIBLE against lefties.

While he is an above average 3 hitter, if the Sox could move him for something worthwhile (which I do not think that they can) then I would be all for it.

voodoochile
02-27-2008, 12:55 AM
Best EVER? I'd say that is getting a little carried away there my friend. One of the best of his time? Yes. Ever? No way.

Last year ten players had a higher OPS than he did.

He struck out forty more times than he walked.

he is TERRIBLE against lefties.

While he is an above average 3 hitter, if the Sox could move him for something worthwhile (which I do not think that they can) then I would be all for it.

He has the 16th highest OPS in major league history with a career number only .081 less than Frank. I think that means he was one of the best ever at the plate.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPS_career.shtml

Noneck
02-27-2008, 12:56 AM
Jim Thome is arguably one of the best #3 hitters EVER. I can't believe what I'm reading...Swisher/Fields/Crede filling his spot without losing something.... Blasphemy.

We had a bad 4,5,6 production last year boys and girls.. But Jim was there. On base, as he always is. And driving in runs and slugging. Overall, he has STUPID numbers hitting on even just 1 side of the plate. Career OPS off the map.

He does what a 3 is supposed to do and better than almost everyone (Papi is about the only person I can think of who might be better today - his career doesn't even sniff Jim's jock).

Good Lord....

If he was as great as you say now he would be worth at least a #3 starter now but in reality he is worth a bag of beans currently with his salary. As I said previously he not even tradeable now without the Sox picking up a portion of his salary. One can only judge a player by what his worth is currently and Thomes worth is approaching zero.

drewcifer
02-27-2008, 12:58 AM
Best EVER? I'd say that is getting a little carried away there my friend. One of the best of his time? Yes. Ever? No way.

Last year ten players had a higher OPS than he did.

He struck out forty more times than he walked.

he is TERRIBLE against lefties.

While he is an above average 3 hitter, if the Sox could move him for something worthwhile (which I do not think that they can) then I would be all for it.

I said ever and welcome to baseball. You don't take 1 year and build a case for a player like that - 17 years and his last nearly perfectly matches his:.281.409.565.974

He struck out 40 times more than he walked??? Take Barry Bonds out of the mix and he walked MORE PER AT BAT than the #2 in walks last year (and he was the plate almost 100 times more than Bonds).

You'd trade this at at subsidized cost of $7M?????

I'm all for nobody in charge of personnel decisions taking your advice.

*P.S. - And for the 10 who had higher OPS than Thome LAST YEAR (a bad year), only 4 were in the AL and all beat him by under a point.

diehardRLsoxfan
02-27-2008, 01:00 AM
He has the 16th highest OPS in major league history with a career number only .081 less than Frank. I think that means he was one of the best ever at the plate.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPS_career.shtml

So by this logic Lance Berkman is also one of the BEST EVER at the plate? Given that he is only one spot below Thome.

diehardRLsoxfan
02-27-2008, 01:05 AM
I said ever and welcome to baseball. You don't take 1 year and build a case for a player like that - 17 years and his last nearly perfectly matches his:.281.409.565.974

He struck out 40 times more than he walked??? Take Barry Bonds out of the mix and he walked MORE PER AT BAT than the #2 in walks last year (and he was the plate almost 100 times more than Bonds).

You'd trade this at at subsidized cost of $7M?????

I'm all for nobody in charge of personnel decisions taking your advice.

Yes you said EVER but his career stats don't mean squat to me. I agree that over his career he has been a very good hitter but when you are talking about people replacing his production THIS year then I'm more concerned with what he can do NOW.

Let me make it clear than nobody that we have now can replace his production in the three hole, but it would not be such a drop off that I would not consider moving Thome to upgrade at other areas of need.

voodoochile
02-27-2008, 01:06 AM
So by this logic Lance Berkman is also one of the BEST EVER at the plate? Given that he is only one spot below Thome.

Well he's only been doing it for 9 seasons, but his 162 game averages of:

.300/.412/.559 76 XBH, 105 R 105 BB, 114 RBI

Is nothing to sneeze at. If he can keep doing it for another 8 years, he'd be a shoe in for the HOF, IMO.

diehardRLsoxfan
02-27-2008, 01:11 AM
Well he's only been doing it for 9 seasons, but his 162 game averages of:

.300/.412/.559 76 XBH, 105 R 105 BB, 114 RBI

Is nothing to sneeze at. If he can keep doing it for another 8 years, he'd be a shoe in for the HOF, IMO.

I'll give ya that, I didn't take into consideration the fact that he has a lot fewer seasons under his belt than Thome....however I do not see Berkman doing that for 8 more years.

If Thome retires today he is a Hall of Famer in my book, but this doesn't change the fact that I would still not mind seeing him moved if the price was right.

drewcifer
02-27-2008, 01:15 AM
If he was as great as you say now he would be worth at least a #3 starter now but in reality he is worth a bag of beans currently with his salary. As I said previously he not even tradeable now without the Sox picking up a portion of his salary. One can only judge a player by what his worth is currently and Thomes worth is approaching zero.

He's worth alot to the Sox on the Sox. That's the point. You said you would trade him if he helps other areas and the point is that he is more of a help right where he is. He is *under market with the $ he came with, and when he's due next year, he continues to have value at short term deals....just like Bonds was to SF.

Look somewhere else - You don't move somebody like that if you can keep him and keep him reasonable. He's from Peoria, I don't think it would be hard.

*The 10 you pointed out with higher OPS last season (which really isn't the point but to show you another flaw in your reasoning):

1. A-Rod
2. Ortiz
3. C. Pena
4. C. Jones
5. Maggs
6. P. Fielder
7. M. Holliday
8. A. Pujols
9. C. Utley
10. R. Howard

Only 3 (best I know) cost their club less than Thome. That makes him under market value.

Noneck
02-27-2008, 01:20 AM
If Thome retires today he is a Hall of Famer in my book, but this doesn't change the fact that I would still not mind seeing him moved if the price was right.

No one will give you squat for a broken down, aging, base clogging, high salary, platoon DH. You never hear any teams out there talking about Thome.
Hopefully he will produce adequately for the Sox this year and not get the required plate appearances to lock into his future years. Then the Sox can see what direction they want to go and be able to make a decision what they want to do with him.

diehardRLsoxfan
02-27-2008, 01:21 AM
The bottom line is we would not get equal value in return for Thome at this point....he needs to sit against most lefties this year and when his contract runs out I will not be sad to see him go.

diehardRLsoxfan
02-27-2008, 01:23 AM
No one will give you squat for a broken down, aging, base clogging, high salary, platoon DH. You never hear any teams out there talking about Thome.
Hopefully he will produce adequately for the Sox this year and not get the required plate appearances to lock into his future years. Then the Sox can see what direction they want to go and be able to make a decision what they want to do with him.

Touche:bandance:

Noneck
02-27-2008, 01:29 AM
He's worth alot to the Sox on the Sox. That's the point. You said you would trade him if he helps other areas and the point is that he is more of a help right where he is. He is under market with the $ he came with, and when he's due next year, he continues to have value at short term deals....just like Bonds was to SF.

Look somewhere else - You don't move somebody like that if you can keep him and keep him reasonable. He's from Peoria, I don't think it would be hard.

If your point is, That he produces revenue by bringing people into the park and it is true, It is a valid reason to keep him around for managements sake.

santo=dorf
02-27-2008, 01:29 AM
So by this logic Lance Berkman is also one of the BEST EVER at the plate? Given that he is only one spot below Thome.
:?:
Sure. Berkman is an incredibly underrated hitter.

We'll agree to disagree here, but to me Joe IS worth more because he plays gold glove defense. Defense is kind of important. ANd with my plan, Josh wouldn't have to play third, because Joe would still be there. This will all be put to rest when Joe leaves, but I'm merely pointing out his glove is going to be sorely missed.
Well at least you're consistently wrong.

We don't even know if Crede's back will allow him to play defense at the level he played it before. No amount of defense will make up the difference in OPS, RBI's and OBP between Crede and Thome. Crede's glove does not produce runs, and it doesn't save that many runs over the average third baseman's glove. If you're using this logic, Mark Grace was a better first baseman than Thomas during the 90's. Unlike Crede, Grace actually won a gold glove as well.

Who was a better first baseman, Grace or Thomas?

veeter
02-27-2008, 09:18 AM
Veeter, cut the bull****. You can't wait until Thome is gone? Give it up. Your agenda is tired, and your complete lack of understanding of baseball is ridiculous.I think I might know a little something about baseball. I know my Thome criticism is over the top. But guys defending him as if he's still the player from ten years ago, is ridiculous as well. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. I hate his approach at the plate. I wish he'd try to beat the shift once an at-bat. I wish he'd cut down his swing every once in a while. I wish he could sniff a lefty. The, "his job is to hit home runs" camp would disagree. None of this matters, however, because Joe will get traded, Josh will be at third and Thome will DH.

Craig Grebeck
02-27-2008, 09:22 AM
I think I might know a little something about baseball. I know my Thome criticism is over the top. But guys defending him as if he's still the player from ten years ago, is ridiculous as well. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. I hate his approach at the plate. I wish he'd try to beat the shift once an at-bat. I wish he'd cut down his swing every once in a while. I wish he could sniff a lefty. The, "his job is to hit home runs" camp would disagree. None of this matters, however, because Joe will get traded, Josh will be at third and Thome will DH.
And that is undoubtedly the correct decision. We're paying 7 million for a .973 OPS.

veeter
02-27-2008, 09:34 AM
And that is undoubtedly the correct decision. We're paying 7 million for a .973 OPS.I hope it is.

voodoochile
02-27-2008, 09:40 AM
I think I might know a little something about baseball. I know my Thome criticism is over the top. But guys defending him as if he's still the player from ten years ago, is ridiculous as well. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. I hate his approach at the plate. I wish he'd try to beat the shift once an at-bat. I wish he'd cut down his swing every once in a while. I wish he could sniff a lefty. The, "his job is to hit home runs" camp would disagree. None of this matters, however, because Joe will get traded, Josh will be at third and Thome will DH.

He did that a few times last year. Maybe he will start doing more of it against lefties.

I still worry about the morale consequences of benching Thome against LHP. The guys a team leader. He's a great clubhouse prsence and his money next year depends on his PH this year. I wouldn't want the other players on the team thinking the Sox are trying to screw him out of his money. I also don't want other teams thinking they can get Thome out of the lineup by bringing in a LHP or stacking their rotation with LHP to get him out of the game.

veeter
02-27-2008, 09:43 AM
:?:
Sure. Berkman is an incredibly underrated hitter.


Well at least you're consistently wrong.

We don't even know if Crede's back will allow him to play defense at the level he played it before. No amount of defense will make up the difference in OPS, RBI's and OBP between Crede and Thome. Crede's glove does not produce runs, and it doesn't save that many runs over the average third baseman's glove. If you're using this logic, Mark Grace was a better first baseman than Thomas during the 90's. Unlike Crede, Grace actually won a gold glove as well.

Who was a better first baseman, Grace or Thomas?My original idea was based on Joe being healthy. That said, I'd argue with you 'til the cows come home why, if I had to choose, I'd rather have Crede stay rather than Thome. But I'd rather do it in a bar, instead of typing 100,000 words.

Frater Perdurabo
02-27-2008, 09:55 AM
I still worry about the morale consequences of benching Thome against LHP. The guys a team leader. He's a great clubhouse prsence and his money next year depends on his PH this year. I wouldn't want the other players on the team thinking the Sox are trying to screw him out of his money. I also don't want other teams thinking they can get Thome out of the lineup by bringing in a LHP or stacking their rotation with LHP to get him out of the game.

If I were KW, I would have a conversation with Thome in which I would explain the following:

You will not start against LHP, in order to get regular rest to forestall nagging injuries;

Fields will DH against LHP;

Be ready to pinch hit in games you do not start;

If you continue to cream RHP and do not develop any long-term injuries throughout 2008, we promise to pick up your option next year regardless of the number plate appearances you have.

Frontman
02-27-2008, 10:01 AM
My original idea was based on Joe being healthy. That said, I'd argue with you 'til the cows come home why, if I had to choose, I'd rather have Crede stay rather than Thome. But I'd rather do it in a bar, instead of typing 100,000 words.

We can all want Joe to stay, but he's not going to. Boras very rarely gets his players back with the team they were with when FA comes around.

Noneck
02-27-2008, 10:33 AM
• If you continue to cream RHP and do not develop any long-term injuries throughout 2008, we promise to pick up your option next year regardless of the number plate appearances you have.

That's locking him up for 13m - 4.5m (Phils pickup) for 09 and 14m- 4.5m (Phils pickup) for 10. I really don't think that is the smart thing to do before the season ends. Who knows what will happen this year and what direction the Sox will take after this year

spiffie
02-27-2008, 12:46 PM
He did that a few times last year. Maybe he will start doing more of it against lefties.

I still worry about the morale consequences of benching Thome against LHP. The guys a team leader. He's a great clubhouse prsence and his money next year depends on his PH this year. I wouldn't want the other players on the team thinking the Sox are trying to screw him out of his money. I also don't want other teams thinking they can get Thome out of the lineup by bringing in a LHP or stacking their rotation with LHP to get him out of the game.
At some point the good of the team has to come first. Jim Thome is a hinderance when a LHP is on the mound. He's not average, he's not slightly below average. He's terrible. I know the Sox have a bad rep, but I just can't imagine that Ozzie Guillen, supposedly a great "player's manager" and someone whose ability to get in the heads of his players, can't convey that to the team. I have to think the endless parade of Thome's trips to the dugout after looking terrible against LHP have to have an effect on morale as well.

Chilli Palmer
02-27-2008, 12:58 PM
If I were KW, I would have a conversation with Thome in which I would explain the following:

You will not start against LHP, in order to get regular rest to forestall nagging injuries;

Fields will DH against LHP;

Be ready to pinch hit in games you do not start;

If you continue to cream RHP and do not develop any long-term injuries throughout 2008, we promise to pick up your option next year regardless of the number plate appearances you have.

But we all know this conversation will not happen. Just like no adjustment was made back in 2006 when it was crystal clear that Mackowiak did not belong in CF.

Taliesinrk
02-27-2008, 02:40 PM
:?:
Who was a better first baseman, Grace or Thomas?

Don't... just don't

kittle42
02-27-2008, 03:11 PM
Don't... just don't

He's just trying to make a point.

Taliesinrk
02-27-2008, 04:05 PM
He's just trying to make a point.

Oh, I know. The problem is that I think the Crede argument is valid but not the Grace-Thomas one.

#1swisher
02-27-2008, 05:21 PM
I didn't see where they would be moving Thome either. Great read on Swish.

Brian26
02-28-2008, 08:34 PM
Who was a better first baseman, Grace or Thomas?

Grace was better defensively. Big Frank was better offensively. Overall, total game, Big Frank was the better player.

Grace is still my favorite Cub player of all time and it would have been nice to see him on the Sox in the mid 90s when that rumor came up.

Frater Perdurabo
02-28-2008, 08:56 PM
Grace was better defensively. Big Frank was better offensively. Overall, total game, Big Frank was the better player.

Grace is still my favorite Cub player of all time and it would have been nice to see him on the Sox in the mid 90s when that rumor came up.

Back in the early 90s I remember talking with my friends - one a Sox fan, the other a Cubs fan - and arguing that I'd like for the Sox to trade for Grace and have Frank DH. That would give the Sox the AL's best IF defense (three GG IFs - Grace, Ventura, Ozzie), plus a great #2 hitter to bat between Raines and Thomas.

sircaffey1
02-28-2008, 09:57 PM
Please god, let Crede be dealt tomorrow.

drewcifer
03-01-2008, 01:12 AM
No one will give you squat for a broken down, aging, base clogging, high salary, platoon DH. You never hear any teams out there talking about Thome.
Hopefully he will produce adequately for the Sox this year and not get the required plate appearances to lock into his future years. Then the Sox can see what direction they want to go and be able to make a decision what they want to do with him.


Or, ..and just throwing this out there, necklace... less... not much..neck... whatever.

He can continue doing what he's doing.

Noneck
03-01-2008, 12:24 PM
He can continue doing what he's doing.

Yes he can but all should hope he does alot more or doesn't get those required PA to lock him in for 09 and 10.

oeo
03-01-2008, 12:37 PM
Yes he can but all should hope he does alot more or doesn't get those required PA to lock him in for 09 and 10.

The 1100 plate attempts over 2007 and 2008 are only for a guaranteed 2009...which would be the last year on this current contract; no 2010.

diehardRLsoxfan
03-01-2008, 01:19 PM
Here's to hoping that this is Thome's last year in a Sox uniform....:gulp:

sox1970
03-01-2008, 01:24 PM
Here's to hoping that this is Thome's last year in a Sox uniform....:gulp:

Here's to hoping Ozzie has sense enough to bench Thome against lefties, including opening day. :gulp:

diehardRLsoxfan
03-01-2008, 01:26 PM
Here's to hoping Ozzie has sense enough to bench Thome against lefties, including opening day. :gulp:

I'll drink to that as well....however if I am drinking to that I don't think I am going to be having too many drinks this year.

Noneck
03-01-2008, 01:53 PM
The 1100 plate attempts over 2007 and 2008 are only for a guaranteed 2009...which would be the last year on this current contract; no 2010.

"In terms of Thome's contract, he will earn $14 million in the finale of a six-year, $85 million deal. The White Sox hold a $13 million option on Thome for 2009, with a $3 million buyout, but that option is automatically guaranteed if Thome had 600 plate appearances in 2007 or 1,100 over 2007-08."

This is from http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080218&content_id=2378846&vkey=spt2008news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I thought the 14m was the last year of contract, 2010 and the 13m is the option in 09.

oeo
03-01-2008, 02:18 PM
"In terms of Thome's contract, he will earn $14 million in the finale of a six-year, $85 million deal. The White Sox hold a $13 million option on Thome for 2009, with a $3 million buyout, but that option is automatically guaranteed if Thome had 600 plate appearances in 2007 or 1,100 over 2007-08."

This is from http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080218&content_id=2378846&vkey=spt2008news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I thought the 14m was the last year of contract, 2010 and the 13m is the option in 09.

No, the $14 million is 2008 (the finale of this contract), and the option is $13 million for 2009. It's a six year contract, which started in 2003, with an option for a 7th year.

This makes a little more sense:
signed 6-year deal worth $85M- + he receives a $10M signing bonus of which $2.5M is payable in 2006 and salaries of $9.5M in 2003, $10.5M in 2004, $11.5M in 2005, $12.5M in 2006, $14M in 2007 and $14M in 2008- + the deal includes a team option for 2009 worth $13M or a $3M buyout- + bonuses he has received: $50K for 2004 All-Star- + he receives a complete NO-TRADE clause- + the 2009 option becomes guaranteed with 1,100 PA combined during the 2007 and 2008 seasonshttp://www.mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=837

Noneck
03-01-2008, 02:57 PM
No, the $14 million is 2008 (the finale of this contract), and the option is $13 million for 2009. It's a six year contract, which started in 2003, with an option for a 7th year.

This makes a little more sense:
http://www.mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=837

Its looks like its costs the Sox 5.5m in 09 (after factoring the Phils pick up and the buyout) to keep Thome. Based on this I don't care if he gets the PA or not.

I had a thought, If Uribe is on the club and doesn't win a starting job, I wouldn't mind seeing him DH vs. LP. Amazingly even his 2007 stats vs. LP were better than Thomes.

gosox41
03-01-2008, 09:40 PM
Here's to hoping Ozzie has sense enough to bench Thome against lefties, including opening day. :gulp:


I've been saying that since mid 2006. But for some reason Ozzie keeps playing him and keeps batting him third. At the very least move him down in the order.


Bob

Chilli Palmer
03-01-2008, 09:45 PM
Here's to hoping Ozzie has sense enough to bench Thome against lefties, including opening day. :gulp:

I have stated in previous threads that Thome should sit against LHP do to his poor performance last year against LHP .196 BA and .314 OBP.

If they continue to trot him out there everyday against LHP, then OG, GW and KW all deserve their fate with the ax man.

Save McCuddy's
03-02-2008, 11:12 AM
Grace was better defensively. Big Frank was better offensively. Overall, total game, Big Frank was the better player.

Grace is still my favorite Cub player of all time and it would have been nice to see him on the Sox in the mid 90s when that rumor came up.

Please Ban this user.

Save McCuddy's
03-02-2008, 11:29 AM
Back in the early 90s I remember talking with my friends - one a Sox fan, the other a Cubs fan - and arguing that I'd like for the Sox to trade for Grace and have Frank DH. That would give the Sox the AL's best IF defense (three GG IFs - Grace, Ventura, Ozzie), plus a great #2 hitter to bat between Raines and Thomas.

Gold Gloves at first base are like tits on a bull. Since 1957, the following players won a gold glove at first base for championship teams:

2007 K. Youkilis
2006 Pujols
2003 D. Lee
1983 E. Murray
1982 K. Hernandez
1959 G. Hodges


For the exception of Youkilis and Hernandez, the others were prolific power hitters in the 3,4 or 5 hole for their respective clubs. Even Youkilis and Hernandez were thought of more for their offense than glove work.

Give me 25 plus homers and 80 plus RBI's from my first baseman, and I'll find 3 other infielders to hit him in the chest with their throws.