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View Full Version : Theo and KW Are Talking about Coco Crisp Again?


Brian26
02-21-2008, 09:24 PM
Just got an IM from Fenway. He says talks between Epstein and Kenny are heating up again regarding Crisp. His sources are the Providence Journal and WEEI (Sean McAdam). Crisp mouthed off to the media yesterday about playing time since Ellsbury will be starting.

Where would he even play on the Sox?

Daver
02-21-2008, 09:28 PM
Just got an IM from Fenway. He says talks between Epstein and Kenny are heating up again regarding Crisp. His sources are the Providence Journal and WEEI (Sean McAdam). Crisp mouthed off to the media yesterday about playing time since Ellsbury will be starting.

Where would he even play on the Sox?

Left Out.

oeo
02-21-2008, 09:31 PM
Not sure how coming to the Sox would make things better for Crisp. He'd still likely be in a platoon role. Unless Theo is just going to give him away, Kenny should say thanks but no thanks.

Tragg
02-21-2008, 09:33 PM
"give away" defined as an organizational minor leaguer or less.

WSox73
02-21-2008, 09:34 PM
"give away" defined as an organizational minor leaguer or less.

Exactly.

sox1970
02-21-2008, 09:35 PM
Just got an IM from Fenway. He says talks between Epstein and Kenny are heating up again regarding Crisp. His sources are the Providence Journal and WEEI (Sean McAdam). Crisp mouthed off to the media yesterday about playing time since Ellsbury will be starting.

Where would he even play on the Sox?

Good. He can leadoff and play center, and Owens can come off the bench.

I heard Crisp's soundbites, and I wouldn't say he "mouthed off". He's been in the big leagues for 4-5 years---he should want to play everyday.

The Immigrant
02-21-2008, 09:35 PM
$10 says Theo is asking for Carlos Quentin.

WSox73
02-21-2008, 09:37 PM
How much is left on Crisp's contract?

sox1970
02-21-2008, 09:38 PM
$10 says Theo is asking for Carlos Quentin.

That's an easy answer for KW.

Wasn't there a rumor a while back where the Sox would package something up and get Crisp and Michael Bowden? I could definitely see Masset being part of this trade if it happens.

oeo
02-21-2008, 09:39 PM
Good. He can leadoff and play center, and Owens can come off the bench.

We may already have Coco Crisp in Owens. I'd like to see the type of spring he has first.

**** the Red Sox, they can wait now. A couple months ago, Kenny probably would have paid a good price to bring Crisp here, but Theo and the Red Sox just sat on their hands.

$10 says Theo is asking for Carlos Quentin.

And to that Kenny should ask Theo who the hell he thinks he is lately. Lester is too much for the best pitcher in the game, you want a potentially very good young guy for a mediocre veteran? Keep living in dream land.

TheOldRoman
02-21-2008, 09:39 PM
Good. He can leadoff and play center, and Owens can come off the bench.

I heard Crisp's soundbites, and I wouldn't say he "mouthed off". He's been in the big leagues for 4-5 years---he should want to play everyday.
No he couldn't. Nick Swisher will be in CF, Dye in Right, and Quentin in LF. I don't think Kenny would make this trade to put Crisp on the bench.

The only way this makes sense is if they trade Konerko and move Swisher to 1B.

sox1970
02-21-2008, 09:45 PM
No he couldn't. Nick Swisher will be in CF, Dye in Right, and Quentin in LF. I don't think Kenny would make this trade to put Crisp on the bench.

The only way this makes sense is if they trade Konerko and move Swisher to 1B.

The way Ozzie manages, he'll find playing time for everyone. Against lefties, you sit Thome. That's an easy decision. Then you'd go Swisher-Crisp-Quentin, and DH Dye.

Thome's going to have a stint on the DL once or twice- Quentin can more AB's there too.

I think Crisp would be a very nice pickup. Hey--Rowand got screwed when the Sox got Kenny Lofton. I'm not going to cry over Jerry Owens getting pushed to the bench.

hi im skot
02-21-2008, 09:51 PM
God, please let this rumor die.

gr8mexico
02-21-2008, 09:54 PM
No he couldn't. Nick Swisher will be in CF, Dye in Right, and Quentin in LF. I don't think Kenny would make this trade to put Crisp on the bench.

The only way this makes sense is if they trade Konerko and move Swisher to 1B.
Let's pray that happens. The Sox might want to consider sending Konerko and Crede to the Giants for Matt Cain and Brian Wilson if the trade for Coco Crisp goes thru. Coco might have the same problem Edgar Renteria had he might just need a change of scenario.

jabrch
02-21-2008, 09:59 PM
I sure hope KW doesn't give up anything of even remote value for Coco Crisp.

santo=dorf
02-21-2008, 10:04 PM
And to that Kenny should ask Theo who the hell he thinks he is lately.
Ummmm, how about the GM of the defending champions and the #1 MLB GM according to Sports Illustrated? At least one of those has indisputable merit. BTW, the SI article had KW tied at 10th.

Coco Crisp must be Fenway's least favorite Red Sox player of all-time. How many times has he talked about how he was going to be traded?

dickallen15
02-21-2008, 10:07 PM
As bad as everyone says Coco Crisp is, does anyone realize the only 4 White Sox with career OBPs higher than him are : Thome, Swisher,Konerko and Dye? He also can catch the ball. People here must not think too much of the White Sox roster.

santo=dorf
02-21-2008, 10:09 PM
Where's Otis with his scoop (of used kitty litter?)

As bad as everyone says Coco Crisp is, does anyone realize the only 4 White Sox with career OBPs higher than him are : Thome, Swisher,Konerko and Dye? He also can catch the ball. People here must not think too much of the White Sox roster.
Career numbers should be taken with caution, especially if there is a downward trend.

Be careful as you are quoting Jim Hendry and Dusty Baker. :o:

moochpuppy
02-21-2008, 10:13 PM
I would give Boston a box of Captain Crunch for Coco Crisp.

dickallen15
02-21-2008, 10:17 PM
Where's Otis with his scoop (of used kitty litter?)


Career numbers should be taken with caution, especially if there is a downward trend.

Be careful as you are quoting Jim Hendry and Dusty Baker. :o:

His .330 OBP last season is right in line with his career .329. I think he is going to be closer to his Cleveland stats if he gets out of Boston maybe with more steals as those are trending higher.

russ99
02-21-2008, 10:19 PM
I would give Boston a box of Captain Crunch for Coco Crisp.

All the rumors I've heard around Crisp this offseason make me believe Boston wants a good return for him. He was to be a part of a Santana to Boston deal. His comments likely haven't changed that.

I don't think Masset and Anderson will get it done. Plus the Red Sox don't really have many flaws - maybe SS, but there's no way Uribe is a real trade chip for anyone decent like Crisp, and the White Sox dont have a 3-4 starter candidate they don't already need themselves. The White Sox are also a bit short-handed on prospects.

I just don't see it happening. The Cubs are a more likely candidate, since I don't think they're sold on Pie.

oeo
02-21-2008, 10:26 PM
Ummmm, how about the GM of the defending champions and the #1 MLB GM according to Sports Illustrated? At least one of those has indisputable merit. BTW, the SI article had KW tied at 10th.

That's very nice for Sports Illustrated...tell me why I should give a ****?

I'm questioning whether you read my post. I'm asking who Theo thinks he is because he's sitting around acting like his **** smells good. I never compared the two GMs, but Theo was out of his mind when he didn't add Lester to that Santana deal, and he's out of his mind if he thinks he can get Quentin out of a deal for Crisp.

It was aggressiveness that won the title...now he's sitting there hoping everything comes to him.

oeo
02-21-2008, 10:31 PM
As bad as everyone says Coco Crisp is, does anyone realize the only 4 White Sox with career OBPs higher than him are : Thome, Swisher,Konerko and Dye?

That's 4/9 of our lineup. Then 3/9 of it has been in the league for less than a year. Doing the math for you, that statistic means jack ****.

santo=dorf
02-21-2008, 10:40 PM
That's very nice for Sports Illustrated...tell me why I should give a ****?

I'm questioning whether you read my post. I'm asking who Theo thinks he is because he's sitting around acting like his **** smells good. I never compared the two GMs, but Theo was out of his mind when he didn't add Lester to that Santana deal, and he's out of his mind if he thinks he can get Quentin out of a deal for Crisp.

It was aggressiveness that won the title...now he's sitting there hoping everything comes to him.
Prove it, and if it's just your opinion, why should anyone give a ****?

oeo
02-21-2008, 10:49 PM
Prove it, and if it's just your opinion, why should anyone give a ****?

:?:

Prove what? The evidence is right in front of your eyes.

WhiteSox5187
02-21-2008, 10:49 PM
I think Jerry Owens is the cheaper and younger version of Coco Crisp, so I'm hoping we pass on him, unless we just turn around and deal him for some pitching, but I don't know who else would want him.

kittle42
02-21-2008, 11:24 PM
I don't think Masset and Anderson will get it done

Maybe Kenny can convince Epstein that Masset's ERA is 2.13 and that Anderson hit over .600. See...just switch their stats!

Sockinchisox
02-21-2008, 11:42 PM
Just say no to Coco.

Navarro's Talent
02-21-2008, 11:50 PM
The Sox don't need Crisp.

Optipessimism
02-22-2008, 12:02 AM
Please no...

TomBradley72
02-22-2008, 12:06 AM
I wouldn't mind adding Crisp to the roster as long as the price isn't too high. He would be our best everyday CF since Rowand left three years ago.

Swisher/Crisp/Dye would be a nice starting OF, w/two switch hitters giving us some great balance and flexibility....I don't want Swisher in CF at all...and Quentin (we still don't if/when he'll be 100% healthy)and Owens can spend a season coming off the bench to platoon or when Swisher DHs against tough lefties or plays some 1B to rest Konerko.

A lead off hitter, an upgrade over Owens/Swisher in CF....if the price is right...I'd make the move. Swisher as an everyday CF will bring back memories of Mack...he belongs in a corner OF position.

Soxfest
02-22-2008, 12:20 AM
Coco can stay in Boston

Slats
02-22-2008, 02:10 AM
Coco can stay in Boston

Amen brother.
Just say no,
To Coco.

cards press box
02-22-2008, 02:22 AM
All the rumors I've heard around Crisp this offseason make me believe Boston wants a good return for him. He was to be a part of a Santana to Boston deal. His comments likely haven't changed that.

Maybe so but I had a feeling that Crisp's comments wouldn't sit well with the Red Sox. If the Sox acquired him, he would be in the mix to bat lead off and would give the Sox five outfielders: Dye, Swisher, Quentin, Owens and Crisp. That would be pretty good depth. Whether a Crisp trade makes sense depends upon the particulars of any such deal. I'm not sure that the White Sox would have to give up all that much for Crisp.

oeo
02-22-2008, 06:35 AM
...and Quentin (we still don't if/when he'll be 100% healthy)

Quentin is supposedly 100% healthy. I have not heard anything that said differently. He's ready to go...

russ99
02-22-2008, 06:51 AM
Maybe so but I had a feeling that Crisp's comments wouldn't sit well with the Red Sox. If the Sox acquired him, he would be in the mix to bat lead off and would give the Sox five outfielders: Dye, Swisher, Quentin, Owens and Crisp. That would be pretty good depth. Whether a Crisp trade makes sense depends upon the particulars of any such deal. I'm not sure that the White Sox would have to give up all that much for Crisp.

Yeah, but all 5 can play every day. The only way that happens without multiple players getting upset about playing time is if Owens goes back to Boston in the deal.

I'd think a package of Owens, Masset and one of the Sox lesser starter prospects (not Broadway, Egbert or Poreda) may be a good enough package to sway Epstein.

Which I don't think happens since as another poster put it, Owens is a younger and cheaper version of Crisp, with less baggage. Unless Kenny has zero confidence that either Owens or Swisher can handle CF, he wouldn't do that.

asindc
02-22-2008, 09:02 AM
I wouldn't mind adding Crisp to the roster as long as the price isn't too high. He would be our best everyday CF since Rowand left three years ago.

Swisher/Crisp/Dye would be a nice starting OF, w/two switch hitters giving us some great balance and flexibility....I don't want Swisher in CF at all...and Quentin (we still don't if/when he'll be 100% healthy)and Owens can spend a season coming off the bench to platoon or when Swisher DHs against tough lefties or plays some 1B to rest Konerko.

A lead off hitter, an upgrade over Owens/Swisher in CF....if the price is right...I'd make the move. Swisher as an everyday CF will bring back memories of Mack...he belongs in a corner OF position.

I agree. IF (Note the bold, underlined, italicized text) the price is right, we have our CF, even if he isn't top-notch. Crisp is a better than avg. fielder, and I'm among those who think a change of scenery will do him well. He never seemed comfortable taking over for Damon. I would rather not see Owens go in the trade, however. I still think he'll contribute significantly before it's all said and done.

Flight #24
02-22-2008, 09:30 AM
Assuming it's a dump of a guy who they need to get rid of, i.e. you get him cheap (Masset+Anderson sounds OK), I don't see the downside here. Owens & Crisp battle for leadoff/CF. Swisher plays LF and occasionally spells Konerko at 1B. Quentin plays LF when Swish is at 1B and spells Dye/Thome occasionally. The Owens/Crisp loser either is the 4th OF or goes to AAA. That's some great depth, and it lets KW make moves if he wants/needs to to deal one of Konerko/Dye/Crisp or even Owens and have a strong player to plug in.

It's really a question of whether or not Ozzie could keep Crisp happy playing part time or if Owens could go to AAA for a bit. If the Sox have the flexibility to keep him happy and productive, then hell - if nothing else they can up his value a bit and trade him for a better prospect then they'd give up to get him.

rookieroy
02-22-2008, 09:31 AM
As already intelligently said, Owens and Crisp are the same player. Owens just has less experience. Please pass KW.

balke
02-22-2008, 09:35 AM
Haha, I was thinking about this yesterday when I saw the story on ESPN.

I guess maybe he could play CF and Dye or Swisher could take LF? Its pretty much a non-move to me. I don't like Crisp to add anything Jerry Owens couldn't.

dickallen15
02-22-2008, 11:10 AM
Quentin is supposedly 100% healthy. I have not heard anything that said differently. He's ready to go...
Didn't Quentin say he was about 85% about a month ago? I have yet to read he's 100%, but I suppose you know everything.

FedEx227
02-22-2008, 11:13 AM
Amen brother.
Just say no,
To Coco.

sayNOtoCOCOin08

WhiteSoxFan84
02-22-2008, 11:18 AM
I don't know if this has been mentioned or if anyone cares but here is Crisp's contract info...

Set to earn $4.75 mill in 2008 and $5.75 mill in 2009.
There is a $8 mill club option for 2010 with a $0.5 mill buyout.

So his contract is at the least 2 years, $11 mill or at the max 3 years, $18.5 mill.

If he can stay healthy (he's only 29 so I doubt he'll all of a sudden become injury prone) and work on his OBP I think he is worth 2 years/$11 mill and depending on what he does in those 2 years he maybe worth the 2010 option.

VenturaFan23
02-22-2008, 11:24 AM
sayNOtoCOCOin08

Nice! :thumbsup:

spiffie
02-22-2008, 11:25 AM
I don't know if this has been mentioned or if anyone cares but here is Crisp's contract info...

Set to earn $4.75 mill in 2008 and $5.75 mill in 2009.
There is a $8 mill club option for 2010 with a $0.5 mill buyout.

So his contract is at the least 2 years, $11 mill or at the max 3 years, $18.5 mill.

If he can stay healthy (he's only 29 so I doubt he'll all of a sudden become injury prone) and work on his OBP I think he is worth 2 years/$11 mill and depending on what he does in those 2 years he maybe worth the 2010 option.
And if Jerry Owens works on his SLG he is just as good at 1/10 the cost. They already are nearly equal in OBP, and if Owens were to play a full year he likely steals double the bases of Crisp, basically negating the SLG advantage.

If the Sox want a high OBP/high power OF they go Quentin, Swisher, Dye. Otherwise you find a place for Owens (platoon Swisher at DH against LHP, give Dye a day off each week) and let him bring the speed. But between Quentin, Owens, Swisher, Dye, Ozuna, Ramirez, and possibly even Anderson there is just no need for yet another OF unless they bring something incredibly special to the table. Coco Crisp brings absolutely nothing special.

soxfan13
02-22-2008, 11:27 AM
I really dont understand the Crisp hatred. Before going to Boston he was on his way to being a helluva ball player. His first year there he got dinged up a little and took a step back due to injuries. Looks like he finally started to turn it around again last year. Those who say they wouldnt want him on the team must not really want the White Sox to improve. If we can get him in a fair deal I would be all for it but I think Boston is going to ask too much. Not that we have tht much more to give. So is the Crisp hatred purely based on him being a Red Sox? I dont know but he would definately improve the team.

chisoxmike
02-22-2008, 11:29 AM
Oh my. Leave the lineup alone.

LEAVE COCO TO ROT IN BOSTON!

spiffie
02-22-2008, 11:32 AM
I really dont understand the Crisp hatred. Before going to Boston he was on his way to being a helluva ball player. His first year there he got dinged up a little and took a step back due to injuries. Looks like he finally started to turn it around again last year. Those who say they wouldnt want him on the team must not really want the White Sox to improve. If we can get him in a fair deal I would be all for it but I think Boston is going to ask too much. Not that we have tht much more to give. So is the Crisp hatred purely based on him being a Red Sox? I dont know but he would definately improve the team.
How does he improve the team? For his career he is under a 330 OPS, he doesn't steal more than 20-25 bases per year, since he left CLE (and since roid testing became part of the game) he has barely any HR power. How exactly is he an improvement over Quentin, a guy with potential to put up huge amounts of doubles and OPS, or over Owens, who is cheaper, faster, and basically the same player?

I just don't see how adding a mediocre CF with no particularly strong skills at anything makes us better. He is overvalued because he had a huge year the year we fought with CLE for the division title and because he's historically done well against us (319/355/502).

voodoochile
02-22-2008, 11:33 AM
I really dont understand the Crisp hatred. Before going to Boston he was on his way to being a helluva ball player. His first year there he got dinged up a little and took a step back due to injuries. Looks like he finally started to turn it around again last year. Those who say they wouldnt want him on the team must not really want the White Sox to improve. If we can get him in a fair deal I would be all for it but I think Boston is going to ask too much. Not that we have tht much more to give. So is the Crisp hatred purely based on him being a Red Sox? I dont know but he would definately improve the team.

There was a time I would have taken Crisp in a heartbeat. That changed the minute the Sox acquired Swisher. I just don't see Crisp being that dramatic of an improvement over the players we currently have and don't want to cut into Swisher's PT. If you bring in Crisp it's to be a starter. That moves Swisher to LF and leaves Quentin and Owens looking in. I'd rather develop those kids then to pay Crisp the next two years.

soxfan13
02-22-2008, 11:39 AM
There was a time I would have taken Crisp in a heartbeat. That changed the minute the Sox acquired Swisher. I just don't see Crisp being that dramatic of an improvement over the players we currently have and don't want to cut into Swisher's PT. If you bring in Crisp it's to be a starter. That moves Swisher to LF and leaves Quentin and Owens looking in. I'd rather develop those kids then to pay Crisp the next two years.

I agree about developing youth but Owens is only a year younger then Crisp. IMO I would rather have Crisp who is proven over a very raw owens only slightly younger. Quentin on the other hand is a few years younger and should develop nicely but if Sox fans want to win now I think having Crisp would give them a better shot.

balke
02-22-2008, 11:41 AM
Though it is possible for Crisp to make this team as CFer and move people out of the lineup, I just don't see the point. Owens can do what he does. The Sox better not give up anything for him if he does come here.

dickallen15
02-22-2008, 11:47 AM
Though it is possible for Owens to make this team as CFer and move people out of the lineup, I just don't see the point. Owens can do what he does. The Sox better not give up anything for him if he does come here.
Jerry Owens had 1 great month, 1 decent month and the rest of his major league career he was beyond horrible. Its not like he's 21 or 22. He's not very good. He can't hold Coco's jock.

spiffie
02-22-2008, 11:51 AM
Jerry Owens had 1 great month, 1 decent month and the rest of his major league career he was beyond horrible. Its not like he's 21 or 22. He's not very good. He can't hold Coco's jock.
Which part of Coco's jock? The 325ish OBP the last two years? The declining power (14 HR in last 1,000 PA's)? The decent but not great SB totals? Exactly what part of Coco Crisp's game am I missing here?

And since Jerry's entire major league career is 4 months long I assume you mean he's decent/great half the time?

SoxNation05
02-22-2008, 12:18 PM
Which part of Coco's jock? The 325ish OBP the last two years? The declining power (14 HR in last 1,000 PA's)? The decent but not great SB totals? Exactly what part of Coco Crisp's game am I missing here?

And since Jerry's entire major league career is 4 months long I assume you mean he's decent/great half the time?

The fielding.

spiffie
02-22-2008, 12:20 PM
The fielding.
In that case then put Anderson out there. He's a better glove than any of them.

SoxNation05
02-22-2008, 12:29 PM
In that case then put Anderson out there. He's a better glove than any of them.
Yeah but he can't hit.

Hitting
Owens and Crisp are even. Anderson is after.

Fielding (1-10)
BA 9
Crisp 7.5
Owens 1

spiffie
02-22-2008, 12:32 PM
Yeah but he can't hit.

Hitting
Owens and Crisp are even. Anderson is after.

Fielding (1-10)
BA 9
Crisp 7.5
Owens 1
And cost:
BA - 0.5M
JO - 0.5M
CC - 5M + players to trade for him.

Especially when you consider that he's likely the 4th OF to begin with behind Dye, Swisher, and Quentin that seems like a lot to pay for either a slightly better glove or a slightly better stick.

balke
02-22-2008, 12:36 PM
Yeah 5 mil is a lot for this team right now. They are already at what I think their budget should be. I just don't think he's worth it. He won't push this team over any kind of hump.

Taliesinrk
02-22-2008, 12:45 PM
Which part of Coco's jock? The 325ish OBP the last two years? The declining power (14 HR in last 1,000 PA's)? The decent but not great SB totals? Exactly what part of Coco Crisp's game am I missing here?

And since Jerry's entire major league career is 4 months long I assume you mean he's decent/great half the time?

well played..

Taliesinrk
02-22-2008, 12:45 PM
Yeah but he can't hit.

Hitting
Owens and Crisp are even. Anderson is after.

Fielding (1-10)
BA 9
Crisp 7.5
Owens 1

GMAB. That's ridiculous

oeo
02-22-2008, 12:46 PM
Jerry Owens had 1 great month, 1 decent month and the rest of his major league career he was beyond horrible. Its not like he's 21 or 22. He's not very good. He can't hold Coco's jock.

You act like he's had the length of career of a typical 27-year-old...

'The rest of his major league career' that you're referring to is about 3 months. What a great argument as usual.

Yeah but he can't hit.

Hitting
Owens and Crisp are even. Anderson is after.

Fielding (1-10)
BA 9
Crisp 7.5
Owens 1

You lost any credibility you might have had. Owens is not a terrible centerfielder. He has a weak arm, but he is better than what Swisher or anyone else on the roster besides BA will give us. He actually impressed me quite a bit last year.

kjhanson
02-22-2008, 12:46 PM
Jerry Owens had 1 great month, 1 decent month and the rest of his major league career he was beyond horrible. Its not like he's 21 or 22. He's not very good. He can't hold Coco's jock.

Owens has had over 100 PAs in three months of his career. And according to you, one was great, one was decent and one was beyond horrible.

That "beyond horrible" month was August, let's do a comparison, shall we:

August 2007
.229/.302/.295, 0 HR, 4 RBI, 9 SB
.227/.321/.299 0 HR, 6 RBI, 3 SB

Covelli Crisp and his jockstrap are on the second row.
Jerry Owens is like the generic prescription, while Crisp is the promoted product. And in this case you would pay 10x's more for the "promoted product". I'll pass, thank you.

SoxNation05
02-22-2008, 12:50 PM
GMAB. That's ridiculous
I don't know what GMAB means. :?:

TomBradley72
02-22-2008, 12:50 PM
I really dont understand the Crisp hatred. Before going to Boston he was on his way to being a helluva ball player. His first year there he got dinged up a little and took a step back due to injuries. Looks like he finally started to turn it around again last year. Those who say they wouldnt want him on the team must not really want the White Sox to improve. If we can get him in a fair deal I would be all for it but I think Boston is going to ask too much. Not that we have tht much more to give. So is the Crisp hatred purely based on him being a Red Sox? I dont know but he would definately improve the team.

I agree. We seem to be completely ignoring the problems on defense if Swisher is an everyday CF...and the fact that Owens hit .235 against LHs. Crisp has very balanced splits against RH/LH and would be a defensive upgrade over both..especially Swisher. We've committed to "winning now" vs. rebuilding. I can't picture a team going to the World Series with Owens/Swisher as it's CF strategy. This would also give us a clear everyday option for the leadoff slot.

Along the same line...Quentin has alot of potential...but the reality is that he is a 25 y.o. prospect who has a career average of .230. Again...if we're going for it THIS year...I'd rather have Swisher/Crisp/Dye with Owens/Quentin getting their first full season in the bigs under their belts coming off the bench and providing depth against injury.

The price has to be reasonable...but I think this would improve our chances of winning this year...which is the entire logic of resigning all the veterans, etc.

balke
02-22-2008, 12:52 PM
Actually, you know... its not my money. IF KW wants to sign him and have the control to not play him if he doesn't fit in, go ahead. I just wouldn't give up anything player-wise for him. I wish we could trade them Andy Gonzalez for him, but he's gone.

I like competition and depth. This team would be insanely deep if they do get Crisp. I don't think Crisp really helps that much with anything, but the team would be better by depth. Hopefully more competitive in Spring Training as well.

I wonder if this could be a way to trade Uribe?

dickallen15
02-22-2008, 01:19 PM
Which part of Coco's jock? The 325ish OBP the last two years? The declining power (14 HR in last 1,000 PA's)? The decent but not great SB totals? Exactly what part of Coco Crisp's game am I missing here?

And since Jerry's entire major league career is 4 months long I assume you mean he's decent/great half the time?
On Aug. 31 last year Jerry Owens was hitting .239 with a very low OBP and a slugging pct. slightly higher than mine. He had a big September to have a bad Coco Crisp year. He sucks.

russ99
02-22-2008, 01:28 PM
Crisp is a more polished hitter and a better fielder than Owens, but if you Crisp supporters are expecting a repeat of his one really good season in Cleveland, good luck.

His game has obviously regressed in the last 2 years and it can be claimed that Owens actually has more upside at a lesser salary.

Jerry is definitely better suited for the kind of position/lineup shuffling that Ozzie is want to do, and Crisp has the attitude that he deserved 550+ at bats a season, but hasn't show the production to warrant that, at least in Boston.

spawn
02-22-2008, 01:36 PM
I don't know what GMAB means. :?:
Give Me A Break.

spiffie
02-22-2008, 01:39 PM
On Aug. 31 last year Jerry Owens was hitting .239 with a very low OBP and a slugging pct. slightly higher than mine. He had a big September to have a bad Coco Crisp year. He sucks.
It took Coco Crisp having two extremely good months to have a bad Coco Crisp year last year, considering 4 out of 6 months he posted OPS of 612, 611, 620, and 699.

dickallen15
02-22-2008, 03:18 PM
It took Coco Crisp having two extremely good months to have a bad Coco Crisp year last year, considering 4 out of 6 months he posted OPS of 612, 611, 620, and 699.
You have 699 being a bad OPS. Owens only had 1 month he was within 39 points of that. He still sucks.

spiffie
02-22-2008, 03:24 PM
You have 699 being a bad OPS. Owens only had 1 month he was within 39 points of that. He still sucks.
Owens sucking isn't the point. The problem is Crisp sucks, and is sucking after 7 years in the league. Owens is right now our 4th OF. The thought of spending extra cash and players to get another player who sucks just plain sucks. It is a terrible idea. It sucks. Crisp sucks.

spawn
02-22-2008, 03:29 PM
Owens sucking isn't the point. The problem is Crisp sucks, and is sucking after 7 years in the league. Owens is right now our 4th OF. The thought of spending extra cash and players to get another player who sucks just plain sucks. It is a terrible idea. It sucks. Crisp sucks.
This thread sucks. :tongue:

spiffie
02-22-2008, 03:37 PM
This thread sucks. :tongue:
Yeah...well suck you! :redneck

Taliesinrk
02-22-2008, 03:38 PM
Owens sucking isn't the point. The problem is Crisp sucks, and is sucking after 7 years in the league. Owens is right now our 4th OF. The thought of spending extra cash and players to get another player who sucks just plain sucks. It is a terrible idea. It sucks. Crisp sucks.

I've pretty much completely agreed with everything you've said in this thread, and acquiring Crisp is, IMO, a mistake. However, I think it's incorrect to assume Owens is a 4th OF. Calling him a 4th outfielder makes it seem like just that - the normal 4th OF. But, with Quentin's injury coupled with Ozzie's musical line-ups, our "4th OF" certainly will get more ABs than the average 4th outfielder. Furthermore, because of the needs of the team, I think we'll see both Owens and Quentin get comparable PT until one can really outperform the other (assuming that ever happens). It's more like he and Quentin are the 3 1/2 OFs on the team.

spawn
02-22-2008, 03:41 PM
Yeah...well suck you! :redneck
:thumbsup:

rookieroy
02-22-2008, 04:04 PM
Once again, I'm amazed on this board how Sox fans judge a rookie as sucking after a few months. It wasn't too long ago how we had/have players by the name of Garland and Crede who sucked well beyond a their first few YEARS!

Same goes for player contracts. How is it that many of you think that KW has to have all nine positions paying players multiple millions of dollars every year? WAKE UP! :mad:

turners56
02-22-2008, 04:15 PM
Coco Crisp is not the greatest leadoff hitter, he doesn't walk enough and his average the past two years is in the .260s. He is a pretty good defensive CF with good speed. And he is not a bad player at the cell either: .286 at the Cell in his career in 133 ABs with 6 homers and 17 RBI. This guy was also a beast against the Sox in his career, a .319 hitter against us.

Carlos Quentin is still a project, he had one very promising season in 06. But I don't think he should just get the starting position without seeing how well he can really play, after the whole injury problem and all. Getting Crisp for a small price would be a great deal IMO, good insurance in case Quentin doesn't produce enough or Owens falls flat on his face.

spiffie
02-22-2008, 04:18 PM
Coco Crisp is not the greatest leadoff hitter, he doesn't walk enough and his average the past two years is in the .260s. He is a pretty good defensive CF with good speed. And he is not a bad player at the cell either: .286 at the Cell in his career in 133 ABs with 6 homers and 17 RBI. This guy was also a beast against the Sox in his career, a .319 hitter against us.

Carlos Quentin is still a project, he had one very promising season in 06. But I don't think he should just get the starting position without seeing how well he can really play, after the whole injury problem and all. Getting Crisp for a small price would be a great deal IMO, good insurance in case Quentin doesn't produce enough or Owens falls flat on his face.
If with 7 (thanks spawn!) potential OF's (Dye, Swisher, Owens, Quentin, Ramirez, Ozuna, Anderson) we still need insurance out there then KW has done a poor job of putting this team together.

spawn
02-22-2008, 04:20 PM
If with 6 potential OF's (Dye, Swisher, Owens, Quentin, Ramirez, Ozuna) we still need insurance out there then KW has done a poor job of putting this team together.
Word. But then, there are many out there who feel he has done a poor job of putting this team together so...

Edit: You forgot about BA in your list. :wink:

turners56
02-22-2008, 04:22 PM
If with 6 potential OF's (Dye, Swisher, Owens, Quentin, Ramirez, Ozuna) we still need insurance out there then KW has done a poor job of putting this team together.

Ozuna is not a reliable outfielder, he should never play everyday. Ramirez is a natural shortstop...how good is he in the outfield? I already talked about Quentin and Owens. Besides, Ramirez might end up in AAA depending on what he shows in spring.

Tragg
02-22-2008, 05:02 PM
We have a great fielding no hit outfielder, if that's what we need: Anderson.

Why give away resources for another one? (he hits a little better and fields a little worse).

We emptied the farm system for Swisher and Quinten, and we still need Coco Crisp?
Lord help us.

turners56
02-22-2008, 05:15 PM
We have a great fielding no hit outfielder, if that's what we need: Anderson.

Why give away resources for another one? (he hits a little better and fields a little worse).

We emptied the farm system for Swisher and Quinten, and we still need Coco Crisp?
Lord help us.

At least Crisp has shown adequate potential, he had a couple of bad years in Boston, that doesn't make him a crappy player. Remember him with the Indians 3 years ago? He would be a better leadoff hitter than what we have now in Orlando Cabrera and a better fielder than Quentin, Owens, and Swisher. You can't compare Coco to Anderson because in a way they are different players. Besides, Anderson was always a low .200 hitter, Coco has hit .300 in his career before. In addition, I never said we needed to break a leg to get Crisp, I said it would be a good deal if we got him for cheap after the whole controversy in Boston and all with Ellsbury. If Kenny does overspend on this, I wouldn't be very happy because there are players on the team who can blend into the role he will be given. He's an upgrade over the players we have now in his to-be-role, that's why I think it wouldn't hurt at all to have him on the team at a good cheap price.

Brian26
02-22-2008, 07:19 PM
Initially I was against this move because I think Quentin is going to have a huge year.

The intriguing thing about Coco is that he solves two question marks that are potentially still there with the Sox: leadoff man and getting better defense in CF. Crisp is a slightly more proven quantity at this point than the combination of Owens and Quentin, and I still like Swisher in LF better than CF.

voodoochile
02-22-2008, 07:30 PM
Initially I was against this move because I think Quentin is going to have a huge year.

The intriguing thing about Coco is that he solves two question marks that are potentially still there with the Sox: leadoff man and getting better defense in CF. Crisp is a slightly more proven quantity at this point than the combination of Owens and Quentin, and I still like Swisher in LF better than CF.

But then what do you do with Quentin?

turners56
02-22-2008, 07:56 PM
But then what do you do with Quentin?

Have him play here and there? He'll get playing time if he's healthy, probably somewhere near 250 ABs. If he shows he can play as well as he did in 2006 after his injury, he's a replacement for Dye in '09 or '10. Right now Quentin is still an unproven prospect who showed flashes in 06, but most of that great potential went down the drain last year...he has all the potential to be a great player, but last year's performance has me thinking somewhat otherwise. If Crisp would come here, the Sox outfield would be 2/3 occupied up till 2010 (Crisp's deal is till 09 with an option for 2010, Swisher is signed till 2011) with Crisp and Swisher holding down center and left respectively. Then you can possibly plug in Quentin if Dye is gone next year or absolutely sucks. If we're really trying to win this year like Kenny thinks so, why not get a proven player in Crisp to address our leadoff position and play a solid center field?

munchman33
02-23-2008, 10:47 AM
But then what do you do with Quentin?

You sit him.

I freakin' new this was gonna happen. :(:

TomBradley72
02-23-2008, 12:23 PM
Once again, I'm amazed on this board how Sox fans judge a rookie as sucking after a few months. It wasn't too long ago how we had/have players by the name of Garland and Crede who sucked well beyond a their first few YEARS!

I think you make a valid point...but age of the player plays into the assessment as well. Garland was 21 y.o. when the White Sox called him up, Owens was 26 last year, Quentin is 25,....so these are not "young prospects".

Crede put up .261-19-75 with great defense his first full season in the bigs (when he was 25 y.o.).

If Owens and/or Quentin need a few years of "our patience" they will be in their late 20's by the time they are productive.

TomBradley72
02-23-2008, 12:26 PM
We emptied the farm system for Swisher and Quinten, and we still need Coco Crisp?
Lord help us.

Yes we did. And after those moves we still don't have a CF at the level required to win a pennant and go to the World Series.

If we can get Crisp for a package of "spare parts" (ie. Masset, Anderson, Uribe, etc.) I'd make the move. If it takes more than that....I'd pass.

voodoochile
02-23-2008, 02:03 PM
Yes we did. And after those moves we still don't have a CF at the level required to win a pennant and go to the World Series.

If we can get Crisp for a package of "spare parts" (ie. Masset, Anderson, Uribe, etc.) I'd make the move. If it takes more than that....I'd pass.

:rolling:

btrain929
02-23-2008, 02:43 PM
Yes we did. And after those moves we still don't have a CF at the level required to win a pennant and go to the World Series.

If we can get Crisp for a package of "spare parts" (ie. Masset, Anderson, Uribe, etc.) I'd make the move. If it takes more than that....I'd pass.

The Red Sox got to and won the World Series with Coco Crisp in CF (Ellsbury played, but sparingly). Does he set the bar of an acceptable CF'er for a World Series contender?

:rolleyes:

I hate people who say "this player isn't good enough for this person on a World Series team." If that statement was ever true, the Yankees would have won a heck of a lot more World Series in the past 15 years from their strategy of simply buying the best players available at their position.

Having, or not having, Coco Crisp will not change the end-result of the 2008 Chicago White Sox.

turners56
02-23-2008, 03:01 PM
Crisp was terrible in the playoffs last year xD. Ellsbury helped the Red Sox sweep the Rockies by hitting 370 something.

munchman33
02-23-2008, 03:14 PM
:rolling:

:rolleyes:

Kenny's still looking for a CF because he knows he still needs one.

Nick Swisher is a fine player. But we didn't need him. It was a pointless move. We have two corner outfielders, one making a lot of money and one that needs to play. We needed a CF. And it looks like we're still looking to get one. Meaning Swisher takes Quentin's job. Which, IMO, is foolish. The Quentin move was Kenny's best move this offseason. His subsequent moves have worked against that move. It's maddening.

There comes a point where depth is detrimental. Because he has three corner outfielders that all should be playing every day. And the guy that is going to sit is the guy that needs at bats the most.

Unless we trade Dye, of course. But I don't see that happening.

nodiggity59
02-23-2008, 03:38 PM
:rolleyes:

Kenny's still looking for a CF because he knows he still needs one.

Nick Swisher is a fine player. But we didn't need him. It was a pointless move. We have two corner outfielders, one making a lot of money and one that needs to play. We needed a CF. And it looks like we're still looking to get one. Meaning Swisher takes Quentin's job. Which, IMO, is foolish. The Quentin move was Kenny's best move this offseason. His subsequent moves have worked against that move. It's maddening.

There comes a point where depth is detrimental. Because he has three corner outfielders that all should be playing every day. And the guy that is going to sit is the guy that needs at bats the most.

Unless we trade Dye, of course. But I don't see that happening.


Chill out, dude. Do you really think the Sox are worse off for having Quentin and Swisher for the next 4-5 years? Of course not. The temporary log jam with Dye, while unfortunate, really doesn't hurt the Sox's chances too badly.

If Swish plays CF, you've got one hell of a OF offensively, w/ a bad defensive CF. Oh well, that seems a fine trade off to me. Swisher is many times the hitter that Owens, Mac, Anderson, and even Rowand were. Him playing a position he's not great at doesn't mean we can't win games. Look at the WS Champs last yr: their aging/injured 3/4 hitters, terrible SS, terrible RF, career year 3B, etc.

Are the Sox perfectly constructed, as is? No. But Swisher and Quentin are two young talents I want on our team going forward. The bottom line is the more talent you have the better regardless of how the guys fit together.

chisox77
02-23-2008, 03:48 PM
Before the White Sox got Swisher, I would have been fine with Coco Crisp.

He is no longer a fit for our team. I'll take Swisher in CF, Quentin in LF, and Dye in RF, with Owens as the backup over this anyday. And don't forget about Alexie Ramirez. He can play CF as well.

No way to this deal! It's a waste of time for the Sox.



:cool:

jabrch
02-23-2008, 04:17 PM
If Swish plays CF, you've got one hell of a OF offensively, w/ a bad defensive CF.

I don't even think you can conclude that. Until we see how he plays in a smaller OF, I don't know how you can conclude he's a bad defensive CF.

Adding Coco Crisp would be a terrible move. I'd rather play Owens than give up anything of value and take on Crisp's contract.

jabrch
02-23-2008, 04:29 PM
The intriguing thing about Coco is that he solves two question marks that are potentially still there with the Sox: leadoff man and getting better defense in CF. Crisp is a slightly more proven quantity at this point than the combination of Owens and Quentin, and I still like Swisher in LF better than CF..

I know he is reputed to be a leadoff hitter - but his stats even if you include two very peculiar seasons both in terms of power and in terms of avg/obp, are fairly pedestrian for a leadoff guy. .280/.329 on his career. .265/.325 on the past two seasons. He had an odd two year spike that could be caused by all sorts of things, but that was a while ago.

I'd keep Owens over him. All he offers for sure over JO is better defense. And all he offers over Swisher is more range with much less offense. And if Quinten is healthy and produces, then he offers nearly nothing over CQ.

No - I'd really rather pass on paying 11mm for him over 2 years.

cards press box
02-23-2008, 04:29 PM
Nick Swisher is a fine player. But we didn't need him. It was a pointless move.

You can't be serious. The Sox have lacked left handed pop for years. And last year, the Sox were last in the AL in on-base percentage. Don't you think that Swisher helps in both areas?

Yes, he is primarily a corner outfielder but he played fairly well in center last year and can play 1st base as well. I hope that Swisher is a cornerstone of this franchise for years to come.

jabrch
02-23-2008, 04:32 PM
Remember him with the Indians 3 years ago?

Yes - I wonder why he had a sudden power spike for two years, then suddenly couldn't hit again after MLB stepped up its drug testing even though he was in one of the most power hitter friendly parks in the game?


He would be a better leadoff hitter than what we have now in Orlando Cabrera

That's untrue. He does absolutely nothing better than OC.

and a better fielder than Quentin, Owens, and Swisher.

But not good enough to warrant his lack of hitting at a 5.5mm per year for two years price tag.

Oh - and he has a crappy attitude to boot. No thanks.

munchman33
02-23-2008, 04:49 PM
You can't be serious. The Sox have lacked left handed pop for years. And last year, the Sox were last in the AL in on-base percentage. Don't you think that Swisher helps in both areas?

Yes, he is primarily a corner outfielder but he played fairly well in center last year and can play 1st base as well. I hope that Swisher is a cornerstone of this franchise for years to come.

I'm dead serious. We had two good corner outfielders. Picking up a third is pointless. Especially when you're paying a premium for that third (which we did).

Now if Kenny did the Swisher deal because he was trading Dye or Quentin, it makes a little more sense. But I haven't seen any indication that he's doing either of those things.

munchman33
02-23-2008, 04:52 PM
Chill out, dude. Do you really think the Sox are worse off for having Quentin and Swisher for the next 4-5 years? Of course not. The temporary log jam with Dye, while unfortunate, really doesn't hurt the Sox's chances too badly.

If Swish plays CF, you've got one hell of a OF offensively, w/ a bad defensive CF. Oh well, that seems a fine trade off to me. Swisher is many times the hitter that Owens, Mac, Anderson, and even Rowand were. Him playing a position he's not great at doesn't mean we can't win games. Look at the WS Champs last yr: their aging/injured 3/4 hitters, terrible SS, terrible RF, career year 3B, etc.

Are the Sox perfectly constructed, as is? No. But Swisher and Quentin are two young talents I want on our team going forward. The bottom line is the more talent you have the better regardless of how the guys fit together.

Quentin needs to play. He doesn't have anything left to prove in the minors. Not playing him now will most likely hinder his development. He needs at bats on a regular basis.

Coco or not, I can't see Ozzie being alright with Swisher in center. Owens or someone else will be in center, even if Quentin plays well.

TheOldRoman
02-23-2008, 05:17 PM
Kenny's still looking for a CF because he knows he still needs one.
What in the world makes you think he is looking for a centerfielder? A rumor came up that the two sides were talking. This could be much like the Sox and Boston talking about trading Buehrle straight up for Crisp last summer. Theo offered them Crisp for Buehrle, and KW told him to piss on a fan. They still talked.

Theo had a chance to trade Crisp to us early in the offseason. He held on to him, overvalued him, and ended up horribly bungling the Santana trade. Now, he still has Crisp, so what does he do?


http://graphics.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2007/10/02/1191379951_6450/410w.jpg
"Hey, uh, Kenny! Ken-Dog! K-Dubs! What's up. You 'member how we were talking about a Coco Crisp trade? Well, it's all good now. We are willing to trade him, and we will even eat some of his salary."



http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/images/2005/08/03/duVw7zzD.jpg
"Uh.. kreee... my phone is cutting out... kreeee... crackling... kreeee... can't hear..."

Lillian
02-23-2008, 05:46 PM
I agree with those who assert that Quentin needs to play. My question is still why he isn't better suited than Swisher to play center. I understand that neither of them are centerfielders, but if you had to pick one of the two, Quentin is supposed to be a very good outfielder.
The only area in which Swisher might have the edge is speed, but I doubt that he is significantly faster than Quentin, if at all. I saw Quentin play several times in Spring Training, but I honestly can't remember much about how he runs. I do, however, sure as hell remember how he pounded Sox pitching!!

munchman33
02-23-2008, 06:22 PM
I agree with those who assert that Quentin needs to play. My question is still why he isn't better suited than Swisher to play center. I understand that neither of them are centerfielders, but if you had to pick one of the two, Quentin is supposed to be a very good outfielder.
The only area in which Swisher might have the edge is speed, but I doubt that he is significantly faster than Quentin, if at all. I saw Quentin play several times in Spring Training, but I honestly can't remember much about how he runs. I do, however, sure as hell remember how he pounded Sox pitching!!

Well, I don't think Quentin's ever played it. A lot of playing center is knowing how to read the ball at that angle. Also, speed is trump out there. It's simply more ground to cover. Swisher is faster than Quentin.

jabrch
02-23-2008, 07:41 PM
Swish may be fine in CF. He wasn't terrilble in Oakland where he had a ton of ground to cover. In USCF with a smaller OF, a fast LF (either JO or CQ) and almost no foul ground he could be OK.

TomBradley72
02-23-2008, 07:49 PM
I just think that the difference between getting to the post season and being an "also ran" is a fine line. Over 162 games....Swisher will cost us at CF...our pitching will need all the help it can get. In 2005 we had Crede at 3B and Rowand in CF...this season it looks like Fields at 3B and Swisher/Owens in CF...that's a big shift in the quality of our defense...I don't like it and I believe it impact us in the heat of a pennant race.

One of the flaws in the way this team has been structured.

munchman33
02-23-2008, 08:22 PM
Swish may be fine in CF. He wasn't terrilble in Oakland where he had a ton of ground to cover. In USCF with a smaller OF, a fast LF (either JO or CQ) and almost no foul ground he could be OK.

Forget the fans. Forget being decent in center.

Would he be good enough for Ozzie? There's a lot of pressure on Ozzie. He's spelled out a way he'd like to win. Swisher isn't even close to his best defensive CF option on the team, as Owens would run circles around him out there.

Ozzie took a ton of crap over Mackowiak, who was really "decent" as a center fielder. It seemed bad to Sox fans because we were used to Rowand and Anderson patrolling.

The pitching staff complicates Ozzie's decision further. They need every extra out they can get. And they certainly don't need a guy out there with questionable range playing center, giving opponents an extra hit.

I really don't see Ozzie going with Swisher in center. It goes against his philosophy. Ozzie wants speed. And he wants defense. And center is probably the second most important defensive position on the field.

If Kenny doesn't pickup another CF, it's almost inevitable that Jerry Owens will start in center. And if he isn't, it's likely Brian Anderson somehow learned to hit. Because Ozzie will not throw Swisher out in center come opening day.

Taliesinrk
02-23-2008, 09:26 PM
Forget the fans. Forget being decent in center.

Would he be good enough for Ozzie? There's a lot of pressure on Ozzie. He's spelled out a way he'd like to win. Swisher isn't even close to his best defensive CF option on the team, as Owens would run circles around him out there.

Ozzie took a ton of crap over Mackowiak, who was really "decent" as a center fielder. It seemed bad to Sox fans because we were used to Rowand and Anderson patrolling.

The pitching staff complicates Ozzie's decision further. They need every extra out they can get. And they certainly don't need a guy out there with questionable range playing center, giving opponents an extra hit.

I really don't see Ozzie going with Swisher in center. It goes against his philosophy. Ozzie wants speed. And he wants defense. And center is probably the second most important defensive position on the field.

If Kenny doesn't pickup another CF, it's almost inevitable that Jerry Owens will start in center. And if he isn't, it's likely Brian Anderson somehow learned to hit. Because Ozzie will not throw Swisher out in center come opening day.

Gosh I hope so.

MisterB
02-24-2008, 12:32 AM
Swish may be fine in CF. He wasn't terrilble in Oakland where he had a ton of ground to cover. In USCF with a smaller OF, a fast LF (either JO or CQ) and almost no foul ground he could be OK.

Actually since they built "Mt. Davis" at the Oakland Mausoleum, the Cell's OF is bigger (particularly CF).

nodiggity59
02-24-2008, 01:53 AM
Forget the fans. Forget being decent in center.

Would he be good enough for Ozzie? There's a lot of pressure on Ozzie. He's spelled out a way he'd like to win. Swisher isn't even close to his best defensive CF option on the team, as Owens would run circles around him out there.

Ozzie took a ton of crap over Mackowiak, who was really "decent" as a center fielder. It seemed bad to Sox fans because we were used to Rowand and Anderson patrolling.

The pitching staff complicates Ozzie's decision further. They need every extra out they can get. And they certainly don't need a guy out there with questionable range playing center, giving opponents an extra hit.

I really don't see Ozzie going with Swisher in center. It goes against his philosophy. Ozzie wants speed. And he wants defense. And center is probably the second most important defensive position on the field.

If Kenny doesn't pickup another CF, it's almost inevitable that Jerry Owens will start in center. And if he isn't, it's likely Brian Anderson somehow learned to hit. Because Ozzie will not throw Swisher out in center come opening day.



I agree that 550 ABs for Owens is not good for the Sox. It would be a big mistake. But I don't know that 350-400 would be so terrible, considering he'd probably steal at least 30 in that range. If you figure that around 50 starts or so will probably be lost between Dye, Konerko, and Thome due to injury (not to regular days off), Owens stepping in and getting that 350-400 with good speed is possible without disrupting things. Remember KW's comments about the starting staff in 06? Concerns about injury and that was why he got Vazquez, w/ McCarthy in the wings? I think that may be part of why he wanted Swisher in addition to Quentin.

In the end though, I also agree about your concern over Quentin's PT. If he doesn't play 4 times a week through the end of May, regardless of results, I'll be upset. From there though, I'm sure you'll agree that whatever is best competitively takes a priority.

WhiteSox5187
02-24-2008, 04:01 AM
Forget the fans. Forget being decent in center.

Would he be good enough for Ozzie? There's a lot of pressure on Ozzie. He's spelled out a way he'd like to win. Swisher isn't even close to his best defensive CF option on the team, as Owens would run circles around him out there.

Ozzie took a ton of crap over Mackowiak, who was really "decent" as a center fielder. It seemed bad to Sox fans because we were used to Rowand and Anderson patrolling.

The pitching staff complicates Ozzie's decision further. They need every extra out they can get. And they certainly don't need a guy out there with questionable range playing center, giving opponents an extra hit.

I really don't see Ozzie going with Swisher in center. It goes against his philosophy. Ozzie wants speed. And he wants defense. And center is probably the second most important defensive position on the field.

If Kenny doesn't pickup another CF, it's almost inevitable that Jerry Owens will start in center. And if he isn't, it's likely Brian Anderson somehow learned to hit. Because Ozzie will not throw Swisher out in center come opening day.
First off, Mack was thrown into a tough spot cuz we needed someone who could hit and we threw him into the most important OF spot and he was just flat out awful. Just awful. I don't know if I've ever seen as bad a CF as Mack was...we shoulda moved Pods over to CF and Mack to LF.

And I will bet you a churro that Swisher is our OD CFer.

Brian26
02-24-2008, 10:03 AM
Just awful. I don't know if I've ever seen as bad a CF as Mack was...we shoulda moved Pods over to CF and Mack to LF.


Pods would have been worse, not even close.

russ99
02-24-2008, 10:45 AM
:rolleyes:

Kenny's still looking for a CF because he knows he still needs one.

Nick Swisher is a fine player. But we didn't need him. It was a pointless move. We have two corner outfielders, one making a lot of money and one that needs to play. We needed a CF. And it looks like we're still looking to get one. Meaning Swisher takes Quentin's job. Which, IMO, is foolish. The Quentin move was Kenny's best move this offseason. His subsequent moves have worked against that move. It's maddening.

There comes a point where depth is detrimental. Because he has three corner outfielders that all should be playing every day. And the guy that is going to sit is the guy that needs at bats the most.

Unless we trade Dye, of course. But I don't see that happening.

For starters, that you mentioned Dye I fully expect Thome to either retire or the Sox not pick up his option after this season, so Dye would be the logical candidate to move into the DH spot. Paulie, as well but Paul's not declined in fielding the way Dye has the last few years.

So a shuttling around of players in the OF and putting Swisher in at 1B once a week to keep Paul fresh for a season wouldn't be so bad. Quentin hasn't proved himself on a major league level so how can you say he deserves the 500+ at bats in left?

Also, you said depth is detrimental?? How many times last season would you have killed for an extra outfielder as talented as Quentin while Pods/Erstad and to a lesser extend Dye was out with injury, and we were being treated to the likes of Andy Gonzalez...

The OF depth the Sox have can only be seen as a strength. Having said that I doubt Kenny thinks that Swisher can really hold down CF permanently. If Owens can't get it done, he'll be looking for someone else.

munchman33
02-24-2008, 10:47 AM
First off, Mack was thrown into a tough spot cuz we needed someone who could hit and we threw him into the most important OF spot and he was just flat out awful. Just awful. I don't know if I've ever seen as bad a CF as Mack was...we shoulda moved Pods over to CF and Mack to LF.

And I will bet you a churro that Swisher is our OD CFer.

I've seen Pods play center. It was worse. Mack really wasn't that bad. He's had a few notorious misreads that have defined his time here. But otherwise he was pretty "average."

Oh, and you're on.

russ99
02-24-2008, 10:50 AM
Pods would have been worse, not even close.

You seem to forget he played CF pretty much exclusively in Milwaukee. His problem was his arm, not range.

munchman33
02-24-2008, 10:51 AM
For starters, that you mentioned Dye I fully expect Thome to either retire or the Sox not pick up his option after this season, so Dye would be the logical candidate to move into the DH spot. Paulie, as well but Paul's not declined in fielding the way Dye has the last few years.

So a shuttling around of players in the OF and putting Swisher in at 1B once a week to keep Paul fresh for a season wouldn't be so bad. Quentin hasn't proved himself on a major league level so how can you say he deserves the 500+ at bats in left?

Also, you said depth is detrimental?? How many times last season would you have killed for an extra outfielder as talented as Quentin while Pods/Erstad and to a lesser extend Dye was out with injury, and we were being treated to the likes of Andy Gonzalez...

The OF depth the Sox have can only be seen as a strength. Having said that I doubt Kenny thinks that Swisher can really hold down CF permanently. If Owens can't get it done, he'll be looking for someone else.

I fully expect Thome to not only play well this year, but have his option picked up. I think Dye will be the one out of here next year.

Depth is great. But Quentin should be a starter. He's at the point where not playing regularly is going to hinder him. If he doesn't play everyday, he might not develop.

munchman33
02-24-2008, 10:52 AM
You seem to forget he played CF pretty much exclusively in Milwaukee. His problem was his arm, not range.

He has HUGE problems misreading balls. He got away with it in left because it was less ground to cover and his speed made up for it.

Center, not so much.

Taliesinrk
02-24-2008, 01:20 PM
Mack really wasn't that bad.

False.

Metalthrasher442
02-24-2008, 01:26 PM
Brian Anderson has been under the radar for this job. Well probably because most of us hate him.

But I know he worked his arse off with the bat this spring and I think that he'll hit 50+ HRs this season. Everyone just wait;) He'll be our MVP this season and get the starting job.

Ok not really. I'm about 90% sure that it'll be Jerry Owens in center. Just because of his range and his lead off abilities.

Brian26
02-24-2008, 01:36 PM
You seem to forget he played CF pretty much exclusively in Milwaukee. His problem was his arm, not range.

I knew he played CF in Milwaukee, and I knew he was considered very bad. Don't forget that when he came to the Sox, there was some question as to who would play CF between Rowand and him (since Rowand is a converted LF anyway). Rowand won out over twinkle-toes.

munchman33
02-24-2008, 01:38 PM
False.

I can't really dispute an opinion that strong.

All I can ask is that you watch Swisher out there this spring and then reassess.

oeo
02-24-2008, 02:01 PM
You seem to forget he played CF pretty much exclusively in Milwaukee. His problem was his arm, not range.

No, it was a little bit of everything. Pods is just a whole bunch of bad defensively.

turners56
02-24-2008, 04:14 PM
Yes - I wonder why he had a sudden power spike for two years, then suddenly couldn't hit again after MLB stepped up its drug testing even though he was in one of the most power hitter friendly parks in the game?




That's untrue. He does absolutely nothing better than OC.



But not good enough to warrant his lack of hitting at a 5.5mm per year for two years price tag.

Oh - and he has a crappy attitude to boot. No thanks.

He was injured in 06 after running into a wall...there's one reason his power isn't as high as it used to be. Coco Crisp doesn't seem like a guy who's juicing. It's not like he hit 25 homers one year and hit 6 the next...

Cabrera might be a better overall player than Crisp, but not a better leadoff hitter. Cabrera's batted 92 games and 316 ABs as a leadoff man in his career and hit .245 with an immense 19 walks. Wow, he's totally the best leadoff hitter on this team. Crisp is not the greatest leadoff hitter either, but his stats are better than .245 and a .283 OBP. Recently however, Crisp did hit .323 in the leadoff spot for Boston last year in 100 at bats. Crisp is an upgrade over Cabrera as a lead-off hitter. Put Orlando in the 2-hole and he will do much better than he will as a lead-off hitter, because that's what he's been throughout his career and where he's succeeded.

slavko
02-24-2008, 05:56 PM
Reminded me of Quentin Crisp, British wit, artist's model, author of The Naked Civil Servant. Great late night talk show guest once upon a time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quentin_Crisp Probably couldn't play ball very well, though.

wdelaney72
02-26-2008, 11:28 AM
I don't understand the hate. I'm not going to put Crisp in Cooperstown, but he's an upgrade at leadoff, and he's an upgrade defensively in CF (sans Anderson who we all know will not be a starter).

If we can get Crisp for spare parts / prospects, then I make this deal. No he's not the savior, but he's a decent ballplayer.

and as far as comparing him to Owens, Crisp will hit a handful of balls out of the park, Owens... can not and will not.

Tragg
02-26-2008, 11:33 AM
I
If we can get Crisp for spare parts / prospects, then I make this deal. No he's not the savior, but he's a decent ballplayer.


Spare parts - sure.
But not for legiy prospects.
Crisp's O has just been poor for several years.

sox1970
02-26-2008, 11:38 AM
I was on the Crisp Bandwagon up until about a week ago. I think the bottom line is the White Sox won't win unless they pitch.

So I think you give Owens an opportunity. If he fails, then you go to Cabrera, Ozuna, and possibly Alexei Ramirez. He may be the biggest wildcard in the whole equation.

Optipessimism
02-26-2008, 11:41 AM
I don't see any reason to add this guy whatsoever. He's not good enough to replace Quentin, Swisher, or Dye, and he's not worth the talent to replace Owens. If we're going to bring in someone to play CF, he had better at least be on the level offensively as the guys he would replace, otherwise we have Anderson already on our roster and he can play a better CF at a much better price. And, if Brian could get his swing figured out and reach his ceiling, he'd be twice the player Coco is.

Brian26
02-28-2008, 07:25 PM
Theo says Crisp is the starting CF right now and he must lose the job. Wow.
Otherwise, it's a pretty good interview. He talks about Santana and makes some interesting remarks about Mussina.

Theo interview on WEEI (http://audio.weei.com/m/18875953/theo_epstein.htm?col=en-all-pod_weei-ep&s=PZSID_pods_pod5_8_6_0004&match=query,keyword=4)

I'm listening to this interview as I type. Theo says, by Red Sox determination, Crisp was the best defensive CF in baseball last year.

jabrch
02-28-2008, 07:39 PM
I don't understand the hate. I'm not going to put Crisp in Cooperstown, but he's an upgrade at leadoff,

Thats just not a confirmable fact. He has been fairly crappy over most of his career. He had two good years in Cleveland - but had not been productive since, even in a hitters park.

No thanks...

Tragg
02-28-2008, 09:45 PM
Theo says Crisp is the starting CF right now and he must lose the job. Wow.
Otherwise, it's a pretty good interview. He talks about Santana and makes some interesting remarks about Mussina.

Theo interview on WEEI (http://audio.weei.com/m/18875953/theo_epstein.htm?col=en-all-pod_weei-ep&s=PZSID_pods_pod5_8_6_0004&match=query,keyword=4)

I'm listening to this interview as I type. Theo says, by Red Sox determination, Crisp was the best defensive CF in baseball last year.

i.e. pimping up his trade value.

Maybe Theo will trade him to a team that needs him, which we do not.

Fenway
02-28-2008, 10:01 PM
Theo says Crisp is the starting CF right now and he must lose the job. Wow.
Otherwise, it's a pretty good interview. He talks about Santana and makes some interesting remarks about Mussina.

Theo interview on WEEI (http://audio.weei.com/m/18875953/theo_epstein.htm?col=en-all-pod_weei-ep&s=PZSID_pods_pod5_8_6_0004&match=query,keyword=4)

I'm listening to this interview as I type. Theo says, by Red Sox determination, Crisp was the best defensive CF in baseball last year.

What else can he say?

I really doubt Coco will be with the Red Sox come Opening Day

btrain929
02-29-2008, 09:48 AM
i.e. pimping up his trade value.

Maybe Theo will trade him to a team that needs him, which we do not.

Exactly. Saying he's their starting CF'er means "you better give us a lot to part with our starting CF'er." This might have also been said to shut Coco up about wanting to start and his agent bitching about how he's not a bench player. Hopefully Coco keeps barking and they finally do trade him.

spiffie
02-29-2008, 09:56 AM
Since Coco's starting we would gladly take Ellsbury off their hands now that he's expendable :tongue:

voodoochile
02-29-2008, 10:11 AM
Since Coco's starting we would gladly take Ellsbury off their hands now that he's expendable :tongue:

Nah, move him to left, Theo and trade us Manny...

Mohoney
02-29-2008, 10:39 AM
But then what do you do with Quentin?

Paulie will get spelled by Swisher at 1B on days Paulie gets off, opening up about 10-15 starts in the OF. Swisher, Crisp, and Dye will also get days off, opening up about 45-55 starts in the OF. Thome will probably get about 20 days off, also removing Swisher from the OF. That opens up somewhere between 80 and 90 OF starts for Quentin right there.

Plus, I'm assuming that at least 1 OF will have at least 1 15 day DL trip during the course of a 162 game season. That would clinch 100 starts for Quentin.

If we somehow get extremely lucky and nobody gets hurt, I think that a healthy OF trio of Swisher/Crisp/Dye with Quentin as the 4th OF will have us right in the mix for the division title, and Quentin would still be starting a bare minimum of half the games. That should be an ample enough workload for a guy coming off surgery.

Fenway
02-29-2008, 01:41 PM
Since Coco's starting we would gladly take Ellsbury off their hands now that he's expendable :tongue:

Does anybody for a nanosecond think they will either

keep Ellsbury on the bench or

send him to Pawtucket????

If Francona had not benched Coco and replaced him with Jacoby in the ALCS the Indians would have won the pennant.

Brian26
02-29-2008, 06:18 PM
If Francona had not benched Coco and replaced him with Jacoby in the ALCS the Indians would have won the pennant.

Theo said Coco got benched only because he was in a slump and might not get a hit for the rest of the playoffs. Coco's still the starting CF though.

:bs:

Fenway
02-29-2008, 06:52 PM
Theo said Coco got benched only because he was in a slump and might not get a hit for the rest of the playoffs. Coco's still the starting CF though.

:bs:

Theo is also selling a bridge in Brooklyn too :tongue: