PDA

View Full Version : Ozzie Says Floyd Looks Great!


MCHSoxFan
02-19-2008, 07:48 PM
Link:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/800743,CST-SPT-soxnt19.article

I hope Ozzie is not JUST talking.

YEEESSS!!!

MCHSoxFan
02-19-2008, 07:49 PM
Oh! Can someone change it the title to Looks instead if looke?!?! :cool:

Metalthrasher442
02-19-2008, 07:50 PM
I read that and was very excited..but didn't want to get too excited..I'll believe it when I see it!

soltrain21
02-19-2008, 07:53 PM
We all know he can throw some nasty stuff in a bullpen session. He can't get rattled in a bullpen session.

MCHSoxFan
02-19-2008, 07:54 PM
I read that and was very excited..but didn't want to get too excited..I'll believe it when I see it!

I agree.

MCHSoxFan
02-19-2008, 07:55 PM
We all know he can throw some nasty stuff in a bullpen session. He can't get rattled in a bullpen session.

I know. I just want people to know the POSITIVE cooments made from the coaching staff.

sox1970
02-19-2008, 08:20 PM
To be the 4th pick in the draft, you pretty much have to have great stuff.

Personally, I think this is going to be his breakout season. I think Juan Nieves got through to him at Charlotte last year, and it's going to be an added benefit having him on the coaching staff.

dickallen15
02-19-2008, 09:20 PM
Before anyone gets too excited, try to go back and read what everyone was saying about the pitchers last year the first week of spring training. You would have thought they might not give up a run in 2007.

FedEx227
02-19-2008, 09:22 PM
Go back and hear what WE said two weeks into last season.

Dare we forget the "Best Bullpen Ever?" thread.

jabrch
02-19-2008, 09:30 PM
Before anyone gets too excited,


What's wrong with being excited?

spiffie
02-19-2008, 09:37 PM
What's wrong with being excited?
For us as fans, absolutely nothing. For the coaches and manager, getting excited about the wrong guys leads to putting Boone Logan on the hill against Travis Hafner and the ball being in near-earth orbit to this very day.

dickallen15
02-19-2008, 10:26 PM
What's wrong with being excited?
Nothing, I said too excited. They haven't even played a game yet, and we already have reports of Floyd and MacDougal headed to Cooperstown.

sas1974
02-19-2008, 10:47 PM
Nothing, I said too excited. They haven't even played a game yet, and we already have reports of Floyd and MacDougal headed to Cooperstown.

Maybe they will reserve some space for them in the DLS Wing of The Hall. I'll reserve judgement, but I like the positivity.

Chicken Dinner
02-19-2008, 10:56 PM
But what does Coop say? :rolleyes:

WhiteSox5187
02-19-2008, 10:56 PM
Again, it's not like Ozzie is going to come out and say "He looked like crap...we're in trouble." But good bullpen sessions have never hurt anyone, have they?

santo=dorf
02-19-2008, 11:13 PM
Again, it's not like Ozzie is going to come out and say "He looked like crap...we're in trouble." But good bullpen sessions have never hurt anyone, have they?
How about "we just signed Bartolo Colon to provide a veteran challenge and have a possible net when Floyd falls flat on his face?"

Optipessimism
02-20-2008, 12:06 AM
How about "we just signed Bartolo Colon to provide a veteran challenge and have a possible net when Floyd falls flat on his face?"

Broadway and Egbert would be the safety net, not Bartolo. He's a gamble and an even bigger question mark than Contreras, Floyd, or Danks.

SoxNation05
02-20-2008, 07:28 AM
Broadway and Egbert would be the safety net, not Bartolo. He's a gamble and an even bigger question mark than Contreras, Floyd, or Danks.
I hope for who ever is holding that net that it's not Bartolo who's falling.

Jenks4Prez
02-20-2008, 01:58 PM
I don't care how he looks. Can he pitch!?
:D:

balke
02-20-2008, 02:08 PM
The point of this article is lost in the title of the thread. This is actually a very interesting article in that Floyd and Danks are going to decide the rotation.


Ozzie doesn't want Buehrle and Danks back to back. He also doesn't want Danks and Floyd back to back.

So right now it almost looks like:

Buehrle
Vazquez
Danks
Contreras
Floyd

OR

Vazquez
Buehrle
Floyd
Contreras
Danks

hi im skot
02-20-2008, 02:59 PM
Gavin Floyd is a handsome man.

ChiTownTrojan
02-20-2008, 03:43 PM
Broadway and Egbert would be the safety net, not Bartolo. He's a gamble and an even bigger question mark than Contreras, Floyd, or Danks.
It would be nice if we had a better backup plan than Broadway and Egbert. Steve Trachsel signed a minor league contract last week to play with the Orioles, and I was thinking that it would be nice to have a veteran down in Charlotte this year, someone who's proven he can play a full season at the major league level. That way when something goes wrong, whether it's Floyd not working out or injuries to someone else in the rotation, we've got someone to step in and fill the gap.

oeo
02-20-2008, 03:55 PM
It would be nice if we had a better backup plan than Broadway and Egbert. Steve Trachsel signed a minor league contract last week to play with the Orioles, and I was thinking that it would be nice to have a veteran down in Charlotte this year, someone who's proven he can play a full season at the major league level. That way when something goes wrong, whether it's Floyd not working out or injuries to someone else in the rotation, we've got someone to step in and fill the gap.

Why does an out-of-prime veteran equate to a better backup plan? :?:

dickallen15
02-20-2008, 03:59 PM
Why does an out-of-prime veteran equate to a better backup plan? :?:
Esteban Loaisa was exactly as you described.

santo=dorf
02-20-2008, 04:23 PM
It would be nice if we had a better backup plan than Broadway and Egbert. Steve Trachsel signed a minor league contract last week to play with the Orioles, and I was thinking that it would be nice to have a veteran down in Charlotte this year, someone who's proven he can play a full season at the major league level. That way when something goes wrong, whether it's Floyd not working out or injuries to someone else in the rotation, we've got someone to step in and fill the gap.
As much as I disapprove of Floyd being in the rotation, especially at the #3 spot :o:, I'd take him over Trachsel.

Why does an out-of-prime veteran equate to a better backup plan? :?:
So I take it you're not down with signing Colon?

oeo
02-20-2008, 04:29 PM
So I take it you're not down with signing Colon?

I'm fine with any low risk, high reward, but it's not relevant to the point I'm making. A veteran does not automatically mean a better plan than a younger guy.

Colon isn't necessarily going to do better than Broadway or Egbert would. People keep thinking the answer is to sign veterans and they will give us the better shot...which is not necessarily true.

TheVulture
02-20-2008, 04:41 PM
Dare we forget the "Best Bullpen Ever?" thread.

I say we dare not!:tongue:

Sockinchisox
02-20-2008, 06:22 PM
I didn't want to start a Danks topic so I'm putting this in here, according to Cowley, Danks has added a Buehrle-esq cutter and seems to have mastered it.

3. Turn the Page – Pitcher John Danks pitched like, well, a rookie the second half of last season, but is poised to have a breakout year. Why? The southpaw has been working on a cutter similar to Buehrle’s since late last year, and now seems to have it mastered. Case in point: On Wednesday, facing live hitters, Danks squared off with spring roommate Josh Fields. “He keeps telling me about this cutter,’’ Fields said, before the showdown. After the seven-pitch at-bat, Fields seemed impressed. “Wow, I guess he wasn’t kidding,’’ Fields added. “It was nastier than advertised.’’

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2008/02/cowleys_top_5_1.html

Also, keeping on topic, Ozzie was raving about Floyd today when he threw to hitters.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/02/pitchers-vs-bat.html

Metalthrasher442
02-20-2008, 07:03 PM
I didn't want to start a Danks topic so I'm putting this in here, according to Cowley, Danks has added a Buehrle-esq cutter and seems to have mastered it.



http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2008/02/cowleys_top_5_1.html

Also, keeping on topic, Ozzie was raving about Floyd today when he threw to hitters.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/02/pitchers-vs-bat.html


I read the one on Floyd.

I'm not afraid to be excited..but I'll believe everything when I see it.

ChiTownTrojan
02-21-2008, 11:53 AM
As much as I disapprove of Floyd being in the rotation, especially at the #3 spot :o:, I'd take him over Trachsel.

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have Floyd out there too. But Trachsel signed to a minor league contract. If Broadway takes a step backward in his development (he's still a prospect, after all), who do we have to call up if/when injuries crop up, or if Floyd doesn't work out? I'd feel more comfortable with our options with someone like Trachsel down there, that's all.

soxfan13
02-21-2008, 12:40 PM
Esteban Loaisa was exactly as you described.

Did Loaiza ever have a prime? He was a mediocre pitcher before the Sox took a shot on him to help eat some innings. He just happened to have his career year with the Sox and then reverted back to that mediocre pitcher.

munchman33
02-21-2008, 12:43 PM
Did Loaiza ever have a prime? He was a mediocre pitcher before the Sox took a shot on him to help eat some innings. He just happened to have his career year with the Sox and then reverted back to that mediocre pitcher.

I remember before we signed him, year in and year out Peter Gammons used to rave about what great stuff he had and that it was only a matter of time before he put it all together.

soxfan13
02-21-2008, 01:00 PM
I remember before we signed him, year in and year out Peter Gammons used to rave about what great stuff he had and that it was only a matter of time before he put it all together.

Yeah I remember that also, the talk of his "great stuff". At least he was able to do it for one year. Take that year away and he is a career .500 pitcher.

dickallen15
02-21-2008, 01:07 PM
Did Loaiza ever have a prime? He was a mediocre pitcher before the Sox took a shot on him to help eat some innings. He just happened to have his career year with the Sox and then reverted back to that mediocre pitcher.
He reverted back to mediocre, but good enough for the Sox to acquire Jose Contreras, whom without, there probably is no championship.

soxfan13
02-21-2008, 01:09 PM
He reverted back to mediocre, but good enough for the Sox to acquire Jose Contreras, whom without, there probably is no championship.

That is true and yet another example of another so-so pitcher that had one incredible one year stretch.:gulp:

jdm2662
02-21-2008, 07:53 PM
I've been away for five days. Is this the first official fluff piece of Spring Traning? I take these seriously as much as the crap spewed on ESPN.

Corlose 15
02-23-2008, 08:56 PM
Admittedly this is on whitesox.com but it really sounds like Floyd is taking the mental steps necessary to live up to his potential.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080223&content_id=2385711&vkey=spt2008news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Metalthrasher442
02-24-2008, 01:40 PM
Admittedly this is on whitesox.com but it really sounds like Floyd is taking the mental steps necessary to live up to his potential.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080223&content_id=2385711&vkey=spt2008news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

I read that and was glad with the way he is thinking. But I'm trying hard not to get too excited about him. I mean he has a wicked curve, but he still always lets me down. So I'm just going to hope for the best and not get too excited about it until (if) it happens.

PatK
02-24-2008, 02:03 PM
Flloyd is kind of like a right handed Rich Hill.

Wicked curve, and when he's on, unhittable.

But horrible when rattled or not mentally into it.

jabrch
02-24-2008, 02:13 PM
Flloyd is kind of like a right handed Rich Hill.

Wicked curve, and when he's on, unhittable.

But horrible when rattled or not mentally into it.

Except that Hill has a 200 IP, sub 4.00 ERA under his belt while Floyd has not exceeded 70 IP in any season and has a 6.30 on his career.

munchman33
02-24-2008, 02:17 PM
Flloyd is kind of like a right handed Rich Hill.

Wicked curve, and when he's on, unhittable.

But horrible when rattled or not mentally into it.

Rich Hill might have the best curve ball in all of baseball right now. I don't understand how you can make that comparison.

Daver
02-24-2008, 02:27 PM
But horrible when rattled or not mentally into it.

That applies to every pitcher that has ever played the game.

cards press box
02-24-2008, 02:42 PM
Rich Hill might have the best curve ball in all of baseball right now. I don't understand how you can make that comparison.

Floyd does have an excellent curve. To succeed, Floyd has to have command of the curve. Floyd also has to be agressive and attack hitters. Of course, the same thing could be said about all pitchers. But the point is this -- Floyd just turned 25. Jim Bunning (and, no I'm not saying that Floyd = Bunning) didn't hit his stride with the Tigers until he turned 25 and Bunning is in the Hall of Fame. Curt Schilling also had his breakout season at 25. And Sandy Koufax wasn't Sandy Koufax until he turned 26. I'm not saying that Floyd will turn into any of these pitchers. I am saying that some posters are writing this guy off way too early.

munchman33
02-24-2008, 02:45 PM
Floyd does have an excellent curve. To succeed, Floyd has to have command of the curve. Floyd also has to be agressive and attack hitters. Of course, the same thing could be said about all pitchers. But the point is this -- Floyd just turned 25. Jim Bunning (and, no I'm not saying that Floyd = Bunning) didn't hit his stride with the Tigers until he turned 25 and Bunning is in the Hall of Fame. Curt Schilling also had his breakout season at 25. And Sandy Koufax wasn't Sandy Koufax until he turned 26. I'm not saying that Floyd will turn into any of these pitchers. I am saying that some posters are writing ths guy off way too early.

Floyd's curveball wasn't as good as Hill's three years ago when it bit a lot more. That's all I'm trying to say. His curveball is his best pitch. But let's not get carried away here. He doesn't possess an elite curveball.

FedEx227
02-24-2008, 02:50 PM
Rich Hill might have the best curve ball in all of baseball right now. I don't understand how you can make that comparison.

http://cache.etopps.com/images/cards/025-01031fd.jpg
"Hey now"

munchman33
02-24-2008, 02:54 PM
http://cache.etopps.com/images/cards/025-01031fd.jpg
"Hey now"

It's close. And neither throws it better than Zito used to.

But with his fastball...wow. That kids gonna be the best in baseball pretty soon.

jabrch
02-24-2008, 02:59 PM
I am saying that some posters are writing this guy off way too early.

That's for sure - same posters are writing this team off, KW off, the job management does, etc. And if they were here in Feb of 2005, they'd have been pissing and moaning then too.

We don't know yet who is going to play good or bad. All of these guys are talented - it's just a question of how well we play this year. If enough breaks go our way, we will win a lot of games. Short of a few teams with the economic power to buy their way into regular contention, this franchise has been as good as any during KW's tenure.

Nobody can say how good or bad Gavin will be this year. He's got all the skills to pitch effectively - so I'm gonna wait and see before I draw conclusions...

goon
02-24-2008, 03:00 PM
Floyd's curveball wasn't as good as Hill's three years ago when it bit a lot more. That's all I'm trying to say. His curveball is his best pitch. But let's not get carried away here. He doesn't possess an elite curveball.

Wrong.

Gavin Floyd possessed one of the best curveballs in the minor leagues, I have absolutely no idea how that doesn't make it an "elite" pitch, nor do I believe any of the garbage it losing some bite. You did watch him pitch last year, correct? That curveball was a ****ing lollipop, 12-6, freeze you looking or ground into a double play type bend. When you talk like that it makes me believe that you aren't actually watching the games, just repeating what you see on the internet.

I remember the reports about him losing velocity on his fastball and bite on his curveball, Floyd clearly proved that to be wrong last season. Of course, you wouldn't know that unless you watched his starts. Obviously, you didn't.

goon
02-24-2008, 03:02 PM
http://cache.etopps.com/images/cards/025-01031fd.jpg
"Hey now"

I don't really know how you can say one person has the "best" curveball in the game. Superlatives are AWESOME!

Erik Bedard has a better curve the Hill or Lincecum, IMO, but I don't think either one of those guys are going to have a problem striking anyone out with theirs.

munchman33
02-24-2008, 03:03 PM
Wrong.

Gavin Floyd possessed one of the best curveballs in the minor leagues, I have absolutely no idea how that doesn't make it an "elite" pitch, nor do I believe any of the garbage it losing some bite. You did watch him pitch last year, correct? That curveball was a ****ing lollipop, 12-6, freeze you looking or ground into a double play type bend. When you talk like that it makes me believe that you aren't actually watching the games, just repeating what you see on the internet.

I remember the reports about him losing velocity on his fastball and bite on his curveball, Floyd clearly proved that to be wrong last season. Of course, you wouldn't know that unless you watched his starts. Obviously, you didn't.

I might be the only person here to even have SEEN Gavin's curveball in person three years ago. It's definately not the same pitch. And it definately isn't as good as some of the other names of curveball pitchers tossed around here.

I'M NOT SAYING IT'S A BAD PITCH. It's still a very good pitch. But it isn't elite. And it isn't what it was. But he could still be a very good pitcher with it. It's a plus pitch, and it's an out pitch.

munchman33
02-24-2008, 03:04 PM
I don't really know how you can say one person has the "best" curveball in the game. Superlatives are AWESOME!

Erik Bedard has a better curve the Hill or Lincecum, IMO, but I don't think either one of those guys are going to have a problem striking anyone out with theirs.

Oh I forgot about Bedard. Sheesh he's filthy. Toss him in there too.

FedEx227
02-24-2008, 03:06 PM
Oh I forgot about Bedard. Shesh he's filthy. Toss him in there too.

Yeah, exactly. It's pretty much a personal preference. I've always like Zito's the best, but last year he was awful so I took a liking to Lincys because I love how it falls off the table... but again like goon said there's not ONE "BEST CURVEBALL"

oeo
02-24-2008, 03:10 PM
It's close. And neither throws it better than Zito used to.

The Hill and Zito curve ball, is not the same as the one Floyd throws, so why are we even comparing them? The former is more of a looping curve, while Floyd's is a sharp-breaking one.

All I know is Gavin Floyd's curve ball is completely and utterly nasty. Take a look back at his highlights from September...it was sick.

goon
02-24-2008, 03:13 PM
I might be the only person here to even have SEEN Gavin's curveball in person three years ago. It's definately not the same pitch. And it definately isn't as good as some of the other names of curveball pitchers tossed around here.

I'M NOT SAYING IT'S A BAD PITCH. It's still a very good pitch. But it isn't elite. And it isn't what it was. But he could still be a very good pitcher with it. It's a plus pitch, and it's an out pitch.

I've seen archived footage of his curveball while in the minors, I'm not sure what the difference is seeing it in person, unless you are watching him on the field. I doubt you got a better perspective. There isn't much of a difference if any from what I've seen. It's more than what he needs for success in this league.

It might not be the best in the game, but it isn't that far off from the best, especially if he can throw it for strikes. Making a comparison to Rich Hill isn't so completely ridiculous and considering that Floyd can actually throw a fastball above 89 MPH and has a changeup, I'd say he has a good chance at surprising some people. He just needs to keep his head on straight and stay consistent and who knows, maybe he can do that.

munchman33
02-24-2008, 03:14 PM
The Hill and Zito curve ball, is not the same as the one Floyd throws, so why are we even comparing them? The former is more of a looping curve, while Floyd's is a sharp-breaking one.

All I know is Gavin Floyd's curve ball is completely and utterly nasty. Take a look back at his highlights from September...it was sick.

Anyone got any September Floyd curveball videos? To be honest, I skipped his last few starts.

munchman33
02-24-2008, 03:15 PM
He just needs to keep his head on straight and stay consistent

Taking the last few years into consideration, that is asking a lot of him.

Corlose 15
02-24-2008, 03:16 PM
Anyone got any September Floyd curveball videos? To be honest, I skipped his last few starts.

If you go to his player page on Whitesox.com they have highlights of them. Basically just his strikeouts.

Corlose 15
02-24-2008, 03:20 PM
Taking the last few years into consideration, that is asking a lot of him.


But its why articles like the one I posted have me optimistic that he can put it together this year.

I think we have someone who never really struggled in baseball until he struggled with the Phillies and then tried too hard, started thinking too much and lost his rhythm and confidence. It seems like he's getting it back. Admittedly, its early but the early returns are encouraging.

FarWestChicago
02-24-2008, 03:20 PM
It's close. And neither throws it better than Zito used to.

But with his fastball...wow. That kids gonna be the best in baseball pretty soon.Back in the day :smokin: had a helluva bender. :nod:

Ahem, I thought DLS was going to be the best. :wink:

oeo
02-24-2008, 03:21 PM
Anyone got any September Floyd curveball videos? To be honest, I skipped his last few starts.

Here's the start he used it most effectively (mms://a1503.v108692.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/10869/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/10869/2007/open/tp/archive09/092307_chamin_floyd_reel_tp_350.wmv?ct3=-1&ct4=mlb&ct5=24-Feb-08)

If you want to view his other starts, just go to the Top Plays page at whitesox.com.

FedEx227
02-24-2008, 03:45 PM
The Hill and Zito curve ball, is not the same as the one Floyd throws, so why are we even comparing them? The former is more of a looping curve, while Floyd's is a sharp-breaking one.

All I know is Gavin Floyd's curve ball is completely and utterly nasty. Take a look back at his highlights from September...it was sick.

Try reading what we actually posted.

Someone said Floyd and Hill's both had great curveballs. To which someone said Hill might have the best curveball, to which I responded I liked Lincecums, to which he responded about Zitos, etc.

oeo
02-24-2008, 04:01 PM
Try reading what we actually posted.

Someone said Floyd and Hill's both had great curveballs. To which someone said Hill might have the best curveball, to which I responded I liked Lincecums, to which he responded about Zitos, etc.

Actually, the whole conversation started with someone comparing Floyd and Hill. Munchman disagreed because he thought Hill's curve was much better (and maybe the best in the league).

There's no comparing the two curve balls, as they're different types.

Thanks for calling me out, though.

FedEx227
02-24-2008, 04:14 PM
PatK: Floyd is kind of like a right handed Rich Hill.

Wicked curve, and when he's on, unhittable.

But horrible when rattled or not mentally into it. Munch: Rich Hill might have the best curve ball in all of baseball right now. I don't understand how you can make that comparison. Munch: Floyd's curveball wasn't as good as Hill's three years ago when it bit a lot more. That's all I'm trying to say. His curveball is his best pitch. But let's not get carried away here. He doesn't possess an elite curveball.

Don't quite see where you're getting your info from but okay. Never made a comparison between their two curveballs, he talked about the fact that Floyd's curveball bit more... not that it was anything like Hill's.

oeo
02-24-2008, 04:20 PM
Don't quite see where you're getting your info from but okay.

Right from those first two quotes. What are you getting from that differently? PatK made a comparison, munchman disagreed saying Hill's curve ball was better. Is that not contrasting the two curve balls? :?:

Then he goes on to say that Floyd doesn't possess an elite curve ball, when he apparently thinks you need a big looper in order for it to be 'elite.' I actually like the sharp biter more than the loopy curve that Hill and Zito have, but that's just me. That doesn't make either one of them better than the other, though. There's no comparison, which is the point I'm trying to make.

They're both very good curve balls, but they're not same. The only thing that's really similar between the two pitches is the name.

munchman33
02-24-2008, 06:43 PM
Right from those first two quotes. What are you getting from that differently? PatK made a comparison, munchman disagreed saying Hill's curve ball was better. Is that not contrasting the two curve balls? :?:

Then he goes on to say that Floyd doesn't possess an elite curve ball, when he apparently thinks you need a big looper in order for it to be 'elite.' I actually like the sharp biter more than the loopy curve that Hill and Zito have, but that's just me. That doesn't make either one of them better than the other, though. There's no comparison, which is the point I'm trying to make.

They're both very good curve balls, but they're not same. The only thing that's really similar between the two pitches is the name.

I'm not a big fan of the knuckle curve. You only get movement on one plane. And it's real easy to hang. But that's not even what I was getting at. Hill still gets more movement and has more control of his curve than Gavin does. It isn't even close.

edit: wait where did you get that I prefer the big looper? From the Zito thing? I didn't mean for you to draw that conclusion.

Daver
02-24-2008, 06:49 PM
I'm not a big fan of the knuckle curve. You only get movement on one plane

Really?

Based on what?

munchman33
02-24-2008, 10:39 PM
Really?

Based on what?

Well, it actually depends on the type of knuckle curve you throw. There's two kinds.

Most people that throw the knuckle curve throw the one Mike Mussina features. It's straight up and down with very little movement sideways, if none at all. But that's the point of the pitch. Lots of sink. I've also heard people refer to it as a spike I think.

The other type of knuckle curve is more like a knuckle ball, and does have lateral movement. But it isn't seen very often. The only guy I can think of in the last ten years that threw this type of pitch was Jason Isringhausen (sp?). This knuckle curve also has less downward break than the previous, for obvious reasons. But if it's controlled, it's pretty damn devastating.