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View Full Version : White Sox Never Offered Crede Multiyear Deal?


gr8mexico
02-16-2008, 04:04 PM
http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2008/02/he_said_he_said.html
I really wonder who is lying here. Does Boras always have to let his client know if an offer is on the table?

voodoochile
02-16-2008, 04:06 PM
Why would they? I mean up until the time he injured his back, he was their property. Afterwards, why would they risk it?

munchman33
02-16-2008, 04:32 PM
I wouldn't have offered Crede a multi-year deal before the injury either Voodoo. With his agent, it would be pointless. They'd only accept above value before free agency. That's Boras' negotiating policy. Crede isn't a special case. Guys have Boras as their agent because of the way he operates, not despite it. This fan driven idea that Crede somehow really wants to be here is pretty ridiculous given his representation. He really just wants to get paid.

itsnotrequired
02-16-2008, 04:34 PM
This fan driven idea that Crede somehow really wants to be here is pretty ridiculous given his representation. He really just wants to get paid.

Crede has stated in the past that Boras works for him, not the other way around. If this becomes a problem, Crede has said he will find new representation. Take that for what it is worth...

ChiSoxGirl
02-16-2008, 04:39 PM
http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2008/02/he_said_he_said.html
I really wonder who is lying here. Does Boras always have to let his client know if an offer is on the table?

Chris Rongey had Cowley on White Sox Weekly this morning, and when Cowley mentioned this, I raised an eyebrow. First of all, why is this first coming to light so many months later?! I hope this isn't this year's Spring Training detractor for us. Sounds like a he/said-he/said situation waiting to happen.

Sockinchisox
02-16-2008, 04:40 PM
http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/02/williams-respon.html

Patrick134
02-16-2008, 04:47 PM
This fan driven idea that Crede somehow really wants to be here is pretty ridiculous given his representation. He really just wants to get paid.


The idea that any guy "wants to be" on any particular team is crazy. It's a job. Guys may like a particular team dynamic or organization, and want to stay on their current team because of the fear that the next place won't be as comfortable. But this mythical "golly gee, I sure love the city and fans here, and that's why I want to stay" attitude is just a fans myth. That's not to say that players don't like the city or the fans at all. Just that it has zero to do with contract or team choices.

itsnotrequired
02-16-2008, 04:51 PM
The idea that any guy "wants to be" on any particular team is crazy.

Players take lesser contracts to stay in the same place all the time.

Flight #24
02-16-2008, 04:55 PM
Kenny didn't make an offer, he asked borass what it would take and was rejected. Why make an offer when they already said no?

Patrick134
02-16-2008, 04:59 PM
Players take lesser contracts to stay in the same place all the time.


True, but the rest of my post outlined that it's not for the flowery reasons fans tend to hope it's for.

itsnotrequired
02-16-2008, 05:03 PM
True, but the rest of my post outlined that it's not for the flowery reasons fans tend to hope it's for.

Right. And it isn't like players take some gigantic pay cut to stay somewhere. Supposedly, the Orioles had a $65/5 deal on the table for Konerko when he took the $60/5 deal with the Sox. Sure, the difference is only 8% but we're still talking about $5 million.

Frontman
02-16-2008, 05:03 PM
Crede has stated in the past that Boras works for him, not the other way around. If this becomes a problem, Crede has said he will find new representation. Take that for what it is worth...

Then he needs to stop talking the talk and start walking the walk.

Every year, the Sox have tried to get Crede to sign long-term. Boras and Crede state they like the year-to-year deal.

Crede's commentary about Boras is a bit of CYA for Joe. He doesn't want the fans to turn on him; yet he's never comitted long term to the Sox in previous offers.

This is the beginning to the end of #24 at the Hot Corner. Joe wants to get a big payday; the Sox aren't going to put up with Boras garbage for too long.

Expect Gene Honda for the Home Opener to say "Now batting, the Third baseman # 22, Josh Fields."

Patrick134
02-16-2008, 05:06 PM
Right. And it isn't like players take some gigantic pay cut to stay somewhere. Supposedly, the Orioles had a $65/5 deal on the table for Konerko when he took the $60/5 deal with the Sox. Sure, the difference is only 8% but we're still talking about $5 million.

Guys may like a particular team dynamic or organization, and want to stay on their current team because of the fear that the next place won't be as comfortable. But this mythical "golly gee, I sure love the city and fans here, and that's why I want to stay" attitude is just a fans myth. That's not to say that players don't like the city or the fans at all. Just that it has zero to do with contract or team choices.

itsnotrequired
02-16-2008, 05:10 PM
Guys may like a particular team dynamic or organization, and want to stay on their current team because of the fear that the next place won't be as comfortable. But this mythical "golly gee, I sure love the city and fans here, and that's why I want to stay" attitude is just a fans myth. That's not to say that players don't like the city or the fans at all. Just that it has zero to do with contract or team choices.

In Konerko's case, the choice wasn't probably too hard.

:walnuts

"Let's see, should I stay on the team that I've been on for the last seven years and just won a WS or should I switch to a new team that sucks ass?"

thedudeabides
02-16-2008, 05:11 PM
Kenny didn't make an offer, he asked borass what it would take and was rejected. Why make an offer when they already said no?

Exactly...that's why this is deceiving. The Sox have tried to approach Boras in the past about a long term extension and he has declined. He almost always opts to take his clients to free agency and a bidding war. SOP for Boras clients.

munchman33
02-16-2008, 05:17 PM
Crede has stated in the past that Boras works for him, not the other way around. If this becomes a problem, Crede has said he will find new representation. Take that for what it is worth...

I would take it as Joe Crede being a coward and a liar. His actions speak way larger than these words.

Boras works for him. Yep. That's about where the truth in those statements end. Because the rest of that statement should read: "and he's the best at getting the most possible money for his clients, usually in places that are desperate with no regard to fan base or the personal preferences of his clients because money is the most important thing and that's why I hired Scott Boras."

Anyone who would contend with that has obviously not paid attention to every single Scott Boras client to date.

itsnotrequired
02-16-2008, 05:22 PM
I would take it as Joe Crede being a coward and a liar. His actions speak way larger than these words.

Boras works for him. Yep. That's about where the truth in those statements end. Because the rest of that statement should read: "and he's the best at getting the most possible money for his clients, usually in places that are desperate with no regard to fan base or the personal preferences of his clients because money is the most important thing and that's why I hired Scott Boras."

Anyone who would contend with that has obviously not paid attention to every single Scott Boras client to date.

Maybe Crede didn't want a multiyear deal in the past?

:dunno:

munchman33
02-16-2008, 05:25 PM
Maybe Crede didn't want a multiyear deal in the past?

:dunno:

No, I'm talking about Crede's defense of having Boras as an agent, saying it's not an issue and that he's willing to work with the White Sox on deals.

My ass. He's got Boras as his agent for one reason: money.

Patrick134
02-16-2008, 05:28 PM
No, I'm talking about Crede's defense of having Boras as an agent, saying it's not an issue and that he's willing to work with the White Sox on deals.

My ass. He's got Boras as his agent for one reason: money.


And he'll take the Sox's money, or anyone elses.

thedudeabides
02-16-2008, 05:45 PM
Kenny's response. Just as most suspected.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/02/williams-respon.html

Frontman
02-16-2008, 06:19 PM
Kenny's response. Just as most suspected.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/02/williams-respon.html

Not surprising at all. Joe opened his mouth and inserted his foot today. The only person Joe has to be frustrated with is Boras.

I figured this was how it went down.

WhiteSox5187
02-16-2008, 06:36 PM
Well...at this point, I don't think it's worth giving him a long term deal until he proves he's healthy and he can prove he can contribute.

Jerome
02-16-2008, 06:42 PM
He didn't get the back surgery, we have Josh Fields. I love Crede but I have no problem at all with not offering him a contract.

TDog
02-16-2008, 07:00 PM
The idea that any guy "wants to be" on any particular team is crazy. It's a job. Guys may like a particular team dynamic or organization, and want to stay on their current team because of the fear that the next place won't be as comfortable. But this mythical "golly gee, I sure love the city and fans here, and that's why I want to stay" attitude is just a fans myth. That's not to say that players don't like the city or the fans at all. Just that it has zero to do with contract or team choices.

That is more true with some players in some situations than others. Many players have places where they wouldn't play, no matter the money. I know if I played baseball, there is no amount of money they could pay me to play for a team in Texas.

Some players wouldn't go to the Yankees or Mets under any circumstances. Some players will only entertain offers from West Coast teams. When Jackie Robinson was traded from the Dodgers to the hated Giants, long before the era of free agency, he decided it was better to retire from baseball than fulfill his contract. By the same token, in the days before the draft, prospects didn't always go to the team offering them the most money. Bobby Murcer, for example, was offered more money to sign with other teams, but wanted to play for the Yankees.

Lip Man 1
02-16-2008, 07:22 PM
More complete story from White Sox.com:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080216&content_id=2376058&vkey=spt2008news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Lip

MrKinsella
02-16-2008, 07:41 PM
This might ad a new wrinkle to this discussion, but I live in SF and according to the radio personalities around town the Giants and Sox have already agreed in principle on a deal that would send Crede to the bay so long as he appears healthy during the first few weeks of spring training. The only problem with this rumor, is that they never mention who the Sox would be getting in return. Just some food for thought.

WhiteSox5187
02-16-2008, 07:47 PM
We'll see what happens, but I like the approach of waiting and seeing...if he stays healthy and can produce like in 2006, I'd like to see Crede here long term. If that means we have to trade Fields, so be it, we can probably get a good pitcher for him. But that is contingent of Crede proving he's healthy. ANd I don't think we'll be able to see that until the season starts.

Lip Man 1
02-16-2008, 08:27 PM
I'd love to keep Joe as well (assuming he's healthy) but it's clear from the direct quotes attributed to Kenny in the story I linked from White Sox.com that Joe's agent has dramatically different views on this.

Basically it's trade him or lose him.

Lip

jabrch
02-16-2008, 11:15 PM
Does Boras always have to let his client know if an offer is on the table?

Yes

As a lawyer, Boras must let his client know any offer communicated to him. He can make suggestions about what to do with that offer, but he is obligated to convey the offer to his client.

pearso66
02-17-2008, 12:47 AM
I have to agree, Joe made up his mind when he kept Boras as his agent. If he really wanted to stay with the Sox as he claimed, he would have gotten rid of him, knowing how Reinsdorf likes to negotiate with him. By keeping him around, he was only going to stay if the Sox were going to offer him top dollar, which they weren't. So he was basically as good as gone, while keeping him popular with the fans, and making fans mad at management because they wouldn't pay him to keep him around.

JB98
02-17-2008, 01:19 AM
I have to agree, Joe made up his mind when he kept Boras as his agent. If he really wanted to stay with the Sox as he claimed, he would have gotten rid of him, knowing how Reinsdorf likes to negotiate with him. By keeping him around, he was only going to stay if the Sox were going to offer him top dollar, which they weren't. So he was basically as good as gone, while keeping him popular with the fans, and making fans mad at management because they wouldn't pay him to keep him around.

I don't think the fans will get mad at management over Crede though. Everyone knows Joe is an injury risk, and everyone sees the younger, cheaper alternative that is poised to take his place.

I suppose there could be some backlash if we don't get much for Crede in a trade. There is always that sect of fan that overvalues players. Everyone in the league knows we need to trade Crede or lose him, so we aren't likely to get great value coming back.

Save McCuddy's
02-17-2008, 01:44 AM
I don't think the fans will get mad at management over Crede though. Everyone knows Joe is an injury risk, and everyone sees the younger, cheaper alternative that is poised to take his place.

I suppose there could be some backlash if we don't get much for Crede in a trade. There is always that sect of fan that overvalues players. Everyone in the league knows we need to trade Crede or lose him, so we aren't likely to get great value coming back.

This is precisely what I have hated about Kenny's handling of this situation. Why does the whole league have to know that we have no options? As early as '06 after the all-star break with an ailing Podsednik and a suckridden BA we should have brought Fields up and put him in left. Who knows, an unexpected bunch of homers and injection of new blood may have kept our energy up and got us into the playoffs that year. At the very least, the move would have signaled to the other GM's that we weren't necessarily stuck in a box with two 3rd basemen.

Why does Kenny find it necessary to publicly state this year that there is no way that Crede and Fields will both come north? Why not? If Crede is healthy and we can't get more for him than the draft compensation we'll receive if he leaves via free agency, then wouldn't it be more intelligent to at least contemplate the two of them coexisting? Kenny is so obstinate sometimes.

pearso66
02-17-2008, 01:45 AM
I don't think the fans will get mad at management over Crede though. Everyone knows Joe is an injury risk, and everyone sees the younger, cheaper alternative that is poised to take his place.

I suppose there could be some backlash if we don't get much for Crede in a trade. There is always that sect of fan that overvalues players. Everyone in the league knows we need to trade Crede or lose him, so we aren't likely to get great value coming back.

I guess I should have elaborated. I first heard the "quote" from Crede in 05 or early 06 that he wanted to stay with the Sox. If he did, he would have gotten rid of Boras then, knowing the problems he creates. And at that time, especially after he tore it up in the playoffs, I'm sure many fans would have blamed management.

cards press box
02-17-2008, 02:43 AM
This might ad a new wrinkle to this discussion, but I live in SF and according to the radio personalities around town the Giants and Sox have already agreed in principle on a deal that would send Crede to the bay so long as he appears healthy during the first few weeks of spring training. The only problem with this rumor, is that they never mention who the Sox would be getting in return. Just some food for thought.

Speculation on WSI has focused on one of the Giants starting pitchers (most likely Noah Lowry) and/or Randy Winn. I don't know if it is possible but I'm sure that most posters here would love to see the Sox put together a package that would bring back Matt Cain or Tim Lincecum.

munchman33
02-17-2008, 03:47 AM
Speculation on WSI has focused on one of the Giants starting pitchers (most likely Noah Lowry) and/or Randy Winn. I don't know if it is possible but I'm sure that most posters here would love to see the Sox put together a package that would bring back Matt Cain or Tim Lincecum.

Realistically, that package would look something like this:

Poreda, Fields, Quentin, Swisher, Konerko.

IlliniSox4Life
02-17-2008, 05:33 AM
So basically what happened is Kenny went to Boras and said he wanted to negotiate - without a specific deal/offer. Boras turned him down?

So Kenny is saying he tried to negotiate but was turned down (which is true), and Crede is saying there was never an actual offer (which is also true).

Is that pretty much what happened?

dickallen15
02-17-2008, 07:45 AM
This situation looks very familiar to the Magglio situation of several years ago. A popular player is destined to leave town with a bad feelings from the organization, the player and fans. The common factor is Boras. It seems to me, he being the middle man is leaving out a lot of information in his communication with both sides.
Boras' clients almost always go to free agency. He's trying to get them paid the most possible. If Crede really wanted to be with the Sox, and was willing to settle for a "hometown discount" he probably would have instructed Boras to negotiate a contract. And if the Sox really wanted to sign Crede long term, there would have been far more effort than one phone call from a team bus.
Lets face it, Boras and the White Sox don't match, and I doubt ever will. If Danks develops into anything any good, a few years down the line, this thread and the Magglio threads could be brought back out and the name substituted.

LITTLE NELL
02-17-2008, 07:50 AM
The real Joe Crede came out when he said this is a business. Good riddance to you and that creepy agent of yours.

Steelrod
02-17-2008, 09:42 AM
It's simple.

When a player or agent isn't interested in negotiating, it's makes little sense to offer a multiyear contract at any price, as it starts the market for the agent to solicit bids beyond that point. If a player wants to stay, he and the agent get together and decide what they need to stay and present it.

russ99
02-17-2008, 10:33 AM
No surprises here, this is straight out of the Boras playbook.

Boras' number one credo is that a player can get much more money going to a new team in free agency than staying with his current team.

This is just a typical move from Joe in keeping with that (as is the year-by-year negotiation) to maximize that eventual payday. He has zero interest in staying here he just wants to make it sound like he made an effort.

If Joe didn't want to play the game, he would have switched representation.

Grzegorz
02-17-2008, 10:50 AM
The real Joe Crede came out when he said this is a business.

You mean the intelligent Joe Crede? It is a business. You have to go no farther to see that then by looking and the owners and commissioner that sold out the game for the almighty dollar.

More power to you Joe Crede!

itsnotrequired
02-17-2008, 10:55 AM
You mean the intelligent Joe Crede? It is a business. You have to go no farther to see that then by looking and the owners and commissioner that sold out the game for the almighty dollar.

More power to you Joe Crede!

Owners have been interested in the almighty dollar since the sport began.

Frontman
02-17-2008, 10:57 AM
This is where fandom and business collide and is not always pretty.

Joe wants to get paid the best salary he can get. We all agree on that.

We want the Sox to put the best team for the money on the field, we all agree on that.

The problem is that in this day and age, with every single bit of information being made available; sometimes we get completely different stories of the same situation at different times.

I don't have a problem with Kenny saying Josh and Joe won't play on the same team. By that statement alone, there is nothing saying Josh isn't going to AAA and Joe to start on the MLB roster. By that statement alone, there is nothing saying either/or will be traded.

To be upset that its a fact that Joe is one and done after this season? Why get upset by it? It's common knowledge.

Joe, thanks for the incredible plays at 3rd. Good luck to you, and we'll see you down the road.

russ99
02-17-2008, 11:02 AM
This is where fandom and business collide and is not always pretty.

Joe wants to get paid the best salary he can get. We all agree on that.

We want the Sox to put the best team for the money on the field, we all agree on that.

The problem is that in this day and age, with every single bit of information being made available; sometimes we get completely different stories of the same situation at different times.

I don't have a problem with Kenny saying Josh and Joe won't play on the same team. By that statement alone, there is nothing saying Josh isn't going to AAA and Joe to start on the MLB roster. By that statement alone, there is nothing saying either/or will be traded.

To be upset that its a fact that Joe is one and done after this season? Why get upset by it? It's common knowledge.

Joe, thanks for the incredible plays at 3rd. Good luck to you, and we'll see you down the road.

Good post.

I believe Sox fans truly like and appreciate Joe, but to put this into a bit more perspective, losing Crede to FA or in a deal won't come close to how horrible it was to lose Robin Ventura.

Grzegorz
02-17-2008, 11:25 AM
Owners have been interested in the almighty dollar since the sport began.

That's not what I mean. The oligarchy in charge of MLB "dumbed down" the game by catering to those that love the home run and WWE personalities.

Steroids, their usage, the cover-up, and subsequent show trials have brought the game to an all time low.

dickallen15
02-17-2008, 12:10 PM
The real Joe Crede came out when he said this is a business. Good riddance to you and that creepy agent of yours.
Don't kid yourself. There isn't 1 player that doesn't think this is a business. Mark Buerhle gets kudos for signing what is a believed to be below market price contract. It still guarantees him $56 million. If the White Sox only went to $50 million, probably more than he will ever need the rest of his life, and more than Crede will get unless he just comes up huge this season, he would have told Kenny to buzz off.
Take Schilling. He probably has all the money he will ever need, and his doctor tells him in order to pitch he needs surgery. The Red Sox disagree, and only because the Red Sox can void his $8 million contract, he will rehab their way, the way his doctor said wouldn't work.
It goes on and on. I don't blame them. It is a business.

Save McCuddy's
02-17-2008, 12:28 PM
This is where fandom and business collide and is not always pretty.

Joe wants to get paid the best salary he can get. We all agree on that.

We want the Sox to put the best team for the money on the field, we all agree on that.

The problem is that in this day and age, with every single bit of information being made available; sometimes we get completely different stories of the same situation at different times.So far I'm with you.

I don't have a problem with Kenny saying Josh and Joe won't play on the same team. By that statement alone, there is nothing saying Josh isn't going to AAA and Joe to start on the MLB roster. By that statement alone, there is nothing saying either/or will be traded.:clueless

I lose you here. How could anyone consider Fields returning to AAA a plausible option after his performance at the plate last year? No one would pass up 20 - 30 HR's at the major league minimum.

To be upset that its a fact that Joe is one and done after this season? Why get upset by it? It's common knowledge.

Joe, thanks for the incredible plays at 3rd. Good luck to you, and we'll see you down the road.

Here again, I'm with you all the way. I was a big fan of Joe's. Without his big at bats against Cleveland in September 2005 and the crucial double in game 2 of the ALCS our history might well be written much differently.

There's nothing wrong with a one and done scenario -- especially if it makes us the best team we can be this year, which imo it does. Fields can still fit in nicely to back up at 3rd which Joe will definitely need rest. I'd say there'd be at least 30 to 40 games for Fields there. Give him another 20 at DH to spell Thome's back and beef us up against some lefties. Another 50 or so in left he'll get all the at bats he'd need to stay sharp. Joe walks after a productive bounce back season and we get a nice draft pick in return. Sounds better to me than getting a sack of balls for him now or retarding the development of a young contributor in Fields.

jabrch
02-17-2008, 12:38 PM
Of course it is a business. This should surprise nobody. Joe gets a "big" contract after this year, provided there is a market for him. Given his back, it may be his only big contract. He wants to get the most he can - I don't blame him. The only question is what value he puts on being with the Sox. If it were the difference between 60mm and 58mm, I'd think that he could bridge that gap if he wanted to be with the Sox. But it likely won't. It could be the difference between 15mm and 25mm - a much more significant difference.

Either way - I will hold no grudge against Joe because he is being totally honest about it. That's much better than the crap that Ordonez pulled on us.

jabrch
02-17-2008, 12:44 PM
Steroids, their usage, the cover-up, and subsequent show trials have brought the game to an all time low.

While I understand that is your opinion, the game is at an all time high in terms of profitability. So maybe it isn't in the state of disarray you seem to think?

NY is building two new stadiums. Wrigley and Fenway sell out every day. The Dodgers sell nearly 4mm tickets a year. The Pads sell 3mm. LAA and SFO exceed that. So do many other teams.

Baseball is in pretty good shape - despite this.

TDog
02-17-2008, 12:44 PM
Weeks, if not months ago, people should have stopped expecting Crede and Fields to play on the same team in 2008. I expect that if Crede plays for the Sox, Fields will return to AAA. I have posted as much in previous Crede/Fields threads.

TheOldRoman
02-17-2008, 12:59 PM
Realistically, that package would look something like this:

Poreda, Fields, Quentin, Swisher, Konerko.
The Sox won't get Lincecum or Cain, but that above is absolutely asinine. Not even close. You could get either one of them for Fields and Swisher.

As for the rest of the thread, Flight is absolutely right. Kenny went to Borass about a long term deal, and was told it wouldn't happen. No offer was made.

Lip Man 1
02-17-2008, 01:14 PM
McCuddy's:

Kenny is only saying what every GM realistically knew what was going to happen LAST season given the history between the Sox and his agent. It's common knowledge...Kenny 'stating' it doesn't change a single thing. Everyone already knew this was going to happen eventually and it will again with Danks.

Regarding those who brought up Joe's "quotes" from the past. Well Joe Cowley of the Sun-Times did in this story on Crede's situation, just FYI.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/798960,CST-SPT-sox17.article

Lip

Frontman
02-17-2008, 01:29 PM
McCuddy's

What I'm saying is that just because Kenny says Josh and Joe won't play on the same team doesn't mean that

a: either or could be traded, sent down, moved, etc.

and

b: Nothing says that KW couldn't change his tune in 6 weeks.

Personally, as much as I'll always be fans of the 2005 squad, any member of that team who doesn't want to remain in a White Sox uniform can be moved ASAP and I wouldn't bat an eyelash at it.

munchman33
02-17-2008, 02:10 PM
The Sox won't get Lincecum or Cain, but that above is absolutely asinine. Not even close. You could get either one of them for Fields and Swisher.

As for the rest of the thread, Flight is absolutely right. Kenny went to Borass about a long term deal, and was told it wouldn't happen. No offer was made.

You really think two position players would get you Lincecum or Cain? They're both high first round picks that are panning out. Both of those guys are expected to win multiple Cy Youngs. You aren't getting either of them for Fields and Swisher. That isn't equal value.

Now that first offer I suggested...yes that was extreme. But that was kind of the point. If you have two guys that are about as close to can't miss as you can get, and your best hope this year is last place, why would you trade either of those guys? Unless you get absolutely blown away, you don't.

itsnotrequired
02-17-2008, 02:18 PM
That's not what I mean. The oligarchy in charge of MLB "dumbed down" the game by catering to those that love the home run and WWE personalities.

How is this any different than MLB implementing a livelier ball in the early 1920s? HR totals soared and larger-than-life personalities like Babe Ruth were created. Do you view this as a "dumbing down" as well?

cards press box
02-17-2008, 02:28 PM
You really think two position players would get you Lincecum or Cain? They're both high first round picks that are panning out. Both of those guys are expected to win multiple Cy Youngs. You aren't getting either of them for Fields and Swisher. That isn't equal value.

Now that first offer I suggested...yes that was extreme. But that was kind of the point. If you have two guys that are about as close to can't miss as you can get, and your best hope this year is last place, why would you trade either of those guys? Unless you get absolutely blown away, you don't.

The Giants and Blue Jays were purportedly talking about a Tim Lincecum for Alex Rios swap. The trade didn't happen but I don't recall any analysts insisting that the proposed trade was unfair because the Blue Jays were offering only one position player for Lincecum.

The larger point is this: some WSI posters have become so disenchanted with Joe Crede that they believe he has no value on the open trade market. That is simply not true. If healthy (and dealt to SF), he would be the Giants starting 3rd baseman and would likely bat 5th in their lineup.

Flight #24
02-17-2008, 02:35 PM
You really think two position players would get you Lincecum or Cain? They're both high first round picks that are panning out. Both of those guys are expected to win multiple Cy Youngs. You aren't getting either of them for Fields and Swisher. That isn't equal value.

Now that first offer I suggested...yes that was extreme. But that was kind of the point. If you have two guys that are about as close to can't miss as you can get, and your best hope this year is last place, why would you trade either of those guys? Unless you get absolutely blown away, you don't.

I'm not suggesting what's equal value, but are they planning on giving out more than 1 Cy Young a year? Because the number of hotshot young pitchers who "are expected to win multiple Cy Youngs" seems to require that.

The Immigrant
02-17-2008, 03:00 PM
They're both high first round picks that are panning out. Both of those guys are expected to win multiple Cy Youngs.

Maybe, but what are the odds they each make the HoF? 50%? 75%?

BadBobbyJenks
02-17-2008, 03:53 PM
Crede has stated in the past that Boras works for him, not the other way around. If this becomes a problem, Crede has said he will find new representation. Take that for what it is worth...

Crede works for Boras as do all of his clients.

SoxNation05
02-17-2008, 04:03 PM
The Giants and Blue Jays were purportedly talking about a Tim Lincecum for Alex Rios swap. The trade didn't happen but I don't recall any analysts insisting that the proposed trade was unfair because the Blue Jays were offering only one position player for Lincecum.

The larger point is this: some WSI posters have become so disenchanted with Joe Crede that they believe he has no value on the open trade market. That is simply not true. If healthy (and dealt to SF), he would be the Giants starting 3rd baseman and would likely bat 5th in their lineup.
Right now Benji Molina is clean up, I think Crede will bat 4th.

itsnotrequired
02-17-2008, 04:04 PM
Crede works for Boras as do all of his clients.

:rolleyes:

BadBobbyJenks
02-17-2008, 04:09 PM
:rolleyes:
You are right we all have seen Crede step up and prove other wise.:rolleyes:

itsnotrequired
02-17-2008, 04:12 PM
You are right we all have seen Crede step up and show other wise.:rolleyes:

Maybe he doesn't have a problem with his representation? If Crede is happy where he is, why would he get a new agent?

This has nothing to do with "stepping up".

BadBobbyJenks
02-17-2008, 04:17 PM
Maybe he doesn't have a problem with his representation? If Crede is happy where he is, why would he get a new agent?

This has nothing to do with "stepping up".


ok.

LITTLE NELL
02-17-2008, 06:07 PM
Don't kid yourself. There isn't 1 player that doesn't think this is a business. Mark Buerhle gets kudos for signing what is a believed to be below market price contract. It still guarantees him $56 million. If the White Sox only went to $50 million, probably more than he will ever need the rest of his life, and more than Crede will get unless he just comes up huge this season, he would have told Kenny to buzz off.
Take Schilling. He probably has all the money he will ever need, and his doctor tells him in order to pitch he needs surgery. The Red Sox disagree, and only because the Red Sox can void his $8 million contract, he will rehab their way, the way his doctor said wouldn't work.
It goes on and on. I don't blame them. It is a business.
My problem is that Ive followed the White Sox since the fifties and I still have a lot of trouble with the players and agents, I long for the simple days of players staying with one team for all or most of their careers. The owners are entitled to a profit, thats why they are businessmen. Greed will eventually kill this great game. When will the fans say we are not going to pay $30 for a bleacher seat or $60 for a box seat. When the fans come to their senses maybe the owners and players will also come to theirs.

Daver
02-17-2008, 06:15 PM
My problem is that Ive followed the White Sox since the fifties and I still have a lot of trouble with the players and agents, I long for the simple days of players staying with one team for all or most of their careers. The owners are entitled to a profit, thats why they are businessmen. Greed will eventually kill this great game. When will the fans say we are not going to pay $30 for a bleacher seat or $60 for a box seat. When the fans come to their senses maybe the owners and players will also come to theirs.

Ticket prices reflect on payroll, not vice versa. Ticket prices are set by what the market will bear, then your payroll is based on that projection, you don't spend X amount in payroll and then raise ticket prices.

LITTLE NELL
02-17-2008, 06:47 PM
Ticket prices reflect on payroll, not vice versa. Ticket prices are set by what the market will bear, then your payroll is based on that projection, you don't spend X amount in payroll and then raise ticket prices.
This segment of the market (me) will not pay $30 to sit in the bleachers.

Daver
02-17-2008, 07:25 PM
This segment of the market (me) will not pay $30 to sit in the bleachers.

The problem is, there are plenty of people that will.

Domeshot17
02-17-2008, 07:29 PM
Crede has stated in the past that Boras works for him, not the other way around. If this becomes a problem, Crede has said he will find new representation. Take that for what it is worth...


I think its fair to say at this point Crede was just playing the game saying that. Kept the Fans and the Media off his back about Boras for a few years, then he gets to test free agency afterwards.

I think the time is officially up for blaming Boras for Crede. If Crede wanted to stay long term, Crede would stay long term.

Then he comes out and says it is a business and all that.

Oh well, when its all said and done, Crede is small potatos to the potential Josh Fields has

Daver
02-17-2008, 07:36 PM
Oh well, when its all said and done, Crede is small potatos to the potential Josh Fields has

Baseball is not just an offensive game.

Gavin
02-17-2008, 07:38 PM
Why would they?

Yep

SoxNation05
02-17-2008, 07:45 PM
Baseball is not just an offensive game.
Yea great point. Everybody here knows what Josh has to offer on the offensive side. While most people know pitching wins championships. Succsessful fielding not only decrease the amounts of hits that are produced but it gives the pitchers confidence to maybe throw an offspeed pitch in a position where you need to throw a strike. I am a highschool pitcher and when I was in middle school and played with kids in "in house" not all the kids knew what they were doing out there. In games when I had good fielding I would be much more confident in throwing a curve or a changeup, then I would become much more effective. I know that I am comparing middle school fielding to high school fielding but that is about the difference with Fields and Crede.

itsnotrequired
02-17-2008, 07:54 PM
I think its fair to say at this point Crede was just playing the game saying that. Kept the Fans and the Media off his back about Boras for a few years, then he gets to test free agency afterwards.

Agreed. Many players take the ol' "the agent works for me" angle but I haven't heard many use the "I'll find other representation if it becomes a problem" line. That's what made Crede's comments seem a little more "firm". But at the end of the day, the statement doesn't mean much.

Domeshot17
02-17-2008, 08:10 PM
Baseball is not just an offensive game.


I agree, and I don't think Josh will ever be the defender Crede is. However, after the back surgery, I don't think Joe will ever be the same fielder Joe was.

I do have confidence Fields will become a good defensive 3rd baseman. He is a superior Athlete and being a former QB you know he has the potential to learn the proper footwork.

But to elaborate more, Joe is a nice 3rd baseman, probably middle of the pack in terms of total package in baseball. When talking about Josh Fields, I think we could be looking at a superstar.

Daver
02-17-2008, 08:13 PM
I agree, and I don't think Josh will ever be the defender Crede is. However, after the back surgery, I don't think Joe will ever be the same fielder Joe was.

I do have confidence Fields will become a good defensive 3rd baseman. He is a superior Athlete and being a former QB you know he has the potential to learn the proper footwork.

But to elaborate more, Joe is a nice 3rd baseman, probably middle of the pack in terms of total package in baseball. When talking about Josh Fields, I think we could be looking at a superstar.

Josh Fields will be lucky to be the defensive equivalent of Greg Norton.

Frontman
02-17-2008, 08:18 PM
Josh Fields will be lucky to be the defensive equivalent of Greg Norton.

Until I see Crede dive after a ball post-back surgery; he isn't even that good.

All the talk of him "looking good" and "looking fit" won't mean squat if the kid can't field.

RichFitztightly
02-17-2008, 08:53 PM
I agree, and I don't think Josh will ever be the defender Crede is. However, after the back surgery, I don't think Joe will ever be the same fielder Joe was.

I do have confidence Fields will become a good defensive 3rd baseman. He is a superior Athlete and being a former QB you know he has the potential to learn the proper footwork.

But to elaborate more, Joe is a nice 3rd baseman, probably middle of the pack in terms of total package in baseball. When talking about Josh Fields, I think we could be looking at a superstar.

I wouldn't go that far. When healthy, Crede rivals Brooks Robinson. You can't really put a price tag on clutch hitting and clutch fielding.

Fields can can be good, and potentially great. He just has a long way to go defensively, and isn't quite as clutch at the plate as Crede. As of now, unless he improves greatly, and given he's a relative newbie in his baseball training, it could happen, Fields will have superstar power, hopefully have a nice batting average, and be adequate in the field.

Josh will need to improve greatly to have a consistently high average, and he needs to improve greatly to be above average in the field. I don't see him becoming nearly the fielder Crede has been.