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Lip Man 1
02-16-2008, 01:09 PM
Don't know if this has ever come out publicly, at least not this issue. Spoken to Joe Cowley of the Sun-Times.

"We had problems with a few coaches, and I fired them. I didn't like the way they were doing stuff and -- next. Hopefully, those were my last coaching moves.''--Ozzie Guillen to Joe Cowley.

DrCrawdad
02-16-2008, 02:51 PM
Don't know if this has ever come out publicly, at least not this issue. Spoken to Joe Cowley of the Sun-Times.

"We had problems with a few coaches, and I fired them. I didn't like the way they were doing stuff and -- next. Hopefully, those were my last coaching moves.'' -- Ozzie Guillen to Joe Cowley.

Razor Shines
Tim Raines

Those are the two I can think of immediately. But why does Guillen have to say something like this to the media?

I really hope Reinsdorf disciplines Guillen for this unprofessional conduct, 'cos that's just what it seems to me to be.

Imagine Guillen's reaction IF one of his coaches quit and then proceeded to blast Guillen to the media.

munchman33
02-16-2008, 03:14 PM
Razor Shines
Tim Raines

Those are the two I can think of immediately. But why does Guillen have to say something like this to the media?

I really hope Reinsdorf disciplines Guillen for this unprofessional conduct, 'cos that's just what it seems to me to be.

Imagine Guillen's reaction IF one of his coaches quit and then proceeded to blast Guillen to the media.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Ozzie's staff is his responsibility. It's a public position. Whenever there's movement on the staff, everyone wonders about it and questions it. It's Ozzie's responsibility to put those things to rest so they don't bother the ballclub. There isn't a better way to do that then say "they didn't do things the way I wanted and I fired them." If that was the case, then I feel better already knowing that that's why those guys are gone.

dickallen15
02-16-2008, 03:24 PM
I couldn't disagree with you more. Ozzie's staff is his responsibility. It's a public position. Whenever there's movement on the staff, everyone wonders about it and questions it. It's Ozzie's responsibility to put those things to rest so they don't bother the ballclub. There isn't a better way to do that then say "they didn't do things the way I wanted and I fired them." If that was the case, then I feel better already knowing that that's why those guys are gone.
Then how come he didn't say that when he fired Razor Shines? In fact he said just the opposite. I don't know if you have ever been in a position where you had to let someone go, but for most, it isn't pleasant. Tim Raines has been gone for a year and a half. Shines for 4 or 5 months. Popping off having to fire them is careless and juvenile and classless. If "putting things to rest" is the goal like you suggest, perhaps these comments should be made at the time of the firing. They were in Raines' case, but not in Shines' case, and they do nobody any good to re-hash them.

munchman33
02-16-2008, 03:34 PM
Then how come he didn't say that when he fired Razor Shines? In fact he said just the opposite. I don't know if you have ever been in a position where you had to let someone go, but for most, it isn't pleasant. Tim Raines has been gone for a year and a half. Shines for 4 or 5 months. Popping off having to fire them is careless and juvenile and classless. If "putting things to rest" is the goal like you suggest, perhaps these comments should be made at the time of the firing. They were in Raines' case, but not in Shines' case, and they do nobody any good to re-hash them.

If Cowley was asking Guillen about it, it was obviously something still in his mind. I know it was on mine. Kudos to Ozzie for putting it to rest.

TomC727
02-16-2008, 03:56 PM
If Cowley was asking Guillen about it, it was obviously something still in his mind. I know it was on mine. Kudos to Ozzie for putting it to rest.

I agree.

DrCrawdad
02-16-2008, 03:58 PM
Then how come he didn't say that when he fired Razor Shines? In fact he said just the opposite. I don't know if you have ever been in a position where you had to let someone go, but for most, it isn't pleasant. Tim Raines has been gone for a year and a half. Shines for 4 or 5 months. Popping off having to fire them is careless and juvenile and classless. If "putting things to rest" is the goal like you suggest, perhaps these comments should be made at the time of the firing. They were in Raines' case, but not in Shines' case, and they do nobody any good to re-hash them.

Amen, brother!

If, as was suggested, the team is wondering and disturbed by the firings then address the team privately. It's classless and disrespectful for Guillen to address this in the media, especially as you said when one coach has been gone for over a year.

DrCrawdad
02-16-2008, 04:07 PM
If Cowley was asking Guillen about it, it was obviously something still in his mind. I know it was on mine. Kudos to Ozzie for putting it to rest.

How about the high road, the road rarely taken by Guillen apparently. Coaching maybe be a public position to a degree but I don't think that excuses this "throwing them under the bus" tactic of Guillen's. How about when asked you say, 'there were some differences in philosophy,' or simply say you'd rather not go into that.

I imagine that some of these coaches that were fired are coaching as a career and are dependent on the income. Why make public statements like this that could jeopardize their chances at future job openings?

And as I said, and you did not address, imagine if one of these fired coaches answered the questions from the media about why they believed they were fired and then his impression of Guillen's managerial style and abilities.

itsnotrequired
02-16-2008, 04:08 PM
How about the high road, the road rarely taken by Guillen apparently. Coaches maybe be a public position to a degree but I don't think that excuses this "throwing them under the bus" tactic of Guillen's. How about when you asked, say there were some differences in philosophy or simply say you'd rather not go into that.

I imagine that some of these coaches that were fired are coaching as a career and are dependent on the income. Why make public statements like this that could jeopardize their chances at future job openings?

And as I said, and you did not address, imagine if one of these fired coaches answered the questions from the media about why they believed they were fired and then his impression of Guillen's managerial style and abilities.

Sounds like the "new" Ozzie is already in form.

oeo
02-16-2008, 04:20 PM
I imagine that some of these coaches that were fired are coaching as a career and are dependent on the income. Why make public statements like this that could jeopardize their chances at future job openings?

Oh God, you act like he said they were terrible human beings and awful coaches. He said he didn't like the way they did things, so he fired them. Could he have said it a little nicer? Sure, but this is Ozzie...he's says it like it is.

Looks like another reason to just jump all over the guy.

munchman33
02-16-2008, 04:27 PM
How about the high road, the road rarely taken by Guillen apparently. Coaching maybe be a public position to a degree but I don't think that excuses this "throwing them under the bus" tactic of Guillen's. How about when asked you say, 'there were some differences in philosophy,' or simply say you'd rather not go into that.

I imagine that some of these coaches that were fired are coaching as a career and are dependent on the income. Why make public statements like this that could jeopardize their chances at future job openings?

And as I said, and you did not address, imagine if one of these fired coaches answered the questions from the media about why they believed they were fired and then his impression of Guillen's managerial style and abilities.

The high road doesn't answer potential questions. This is a high profile, media scrutinized position.

As for your second part, they certainly have that right. Like I said, it's that kind of job.

DrCrawdad
02-16-2008, 04:29 PM
Oh God, you act like he said they were terrible human beings and awful coaches. He said he didn't like what they gave to the team, so he fired them. Could he have said it a little nicer? Sure, but this is Ozzie...he's says it like it is.

Looks like another reason to just jump all over the guy.

I do not think I've "jumped all over (Guillen)" in the past, in fact IIRC I've defended him.

Here is the quote:

"We had problems with a few coaches, and I fired them. I didn't like the way they were doing stuff and -- next. Hopefully, those were my last coaching moves.'' -- Ozzie Guillen to Joe Cowley.

The point again is that it was unnecessary and as I said imagine IF Raines or Shines simply "said it like it is."

On the other hand, Guillen's comments impugning their work as coaches probably won't hurt their careers as people no doubt probably just consider the source.

we be jake
02-16-2008, 04:33 PM
Amen, brother!

If, as was suggested, the team is wondering and disturbed by the firings then address the team privately. It's classless and disrespectful for Guillen to address this in the media, especially as you said when one coach has been gone for over a year.

Ozzie is classless and disrespectful. It seems every year he has to say something stupid to the press that distracts from the goal of winning baseball games. I am tired of his "it's all about me" attitude and wish he would just go away. And he can take KW with him.

Patrick134
02-16-2008, 05:12 PM
I do not think I've "jumped all over (Guillen)" in the past, in fact IIRC I've defended him.

Here is the quote:

"We had problems with a few coaches, and I fired them. I didn't like the way they were doing stuff and -- next. Hopefully, those were my last coaching moves.'' -- Ozzie Guillen to Joe Cowley.

The point again is that it was unnecessary and as I said imagine IF Raines or Shines simply "said it like it is."

On the other hand, Guillen's comments impugning their work as coaches probably won't hurt their careers as people no doubt probably just consider the source.

All he said was that , for whatever reason, their coaching didn't match his philosophy, so they're gone. Nothing he said would cast negative light on these guys getting work anywhere else. Plenty of fired managers pop up on other teams all the time.

BainesHOF
02-16-2008, 05:17 PM
The fired coaches are who they are. If they were so bad, then the question that has to be asked is why the poor judgement in hiring them in the first place.

DrCrawdad
02-16-2008, 05:23 PM
The fired coaches are who they are. If they were so bad, then the question that has to be asked is why the poor judgement in hiring them in the first place.

BINGO!

dickallen15
02-16-2008, 05:34 PM
The high road doesn't answer potential questions. This is a high profile, media scrutinized position.

As for your second part, they certainly have that right. Like I said, it's that kind of job.
Raines was let go over a year ago. Those questions were answered. Didn't Ozzie give an explanation when he let Shines go? Why didn't he stick with that story? Razor had nothing but nice things to say on his way out the door.

oeo
02-16-2008, 05:47 PM
I do not think I've "jumped all over (Guillen)" in the past, in fact IIRC I've defended him.

Here is the quote:

"We had problems with a few coaches, and I fired them. I didn't like the way they were doing stuff and -- next. Hopefully, those were my last coaching moves.'' -- Ozzie Guillen to Joe Cowley.

The point again is that it was unnecessary and as I said imagine IF Raines or Shines simply "said it like it is."

On the other hand, Guillen's comments impugning their work as coaches probably won't hurt their careers as people no doubt probably just consider the source.

Again, Ozzie never said anything about their abilities as coaches. He basically said he didn't think they were a good fit because they weren't doing what he wanted them to do.

If Shines and Raines want to come snap back, more power to them. I don't care...I'm sure Ozzie doesn't either.

The fired coaches are who they are. If they were so bad, then the question that has to be asked is why the poor judgement in hiring them in the first place.

Once again, he didn't say they were bad. He's not hurting their careers because he said, "I didn't like the way they were doing stuff." He was asked the question, and he said he didn't like the way they went about their business. That says nothing about their abilities as coaches, just that they were not good fits for what Ozzie wants to do. Boo-hoo if they don't like it. Same goes to all of you that are putting words in his mouth.

oeo
02-16-2008, 05:53 PM
Raines was let go over a year ago. Those questions were answered. Didn't Ozzie give an explanation when he let Shines go? Why didn't he stick with that story? Razor had nothing but nice things to say on his way out the door.

Here's what he had to say after firing him...

Razor did a tremendous job, and I have a lot of respect for him as a baseball man. He didn't get fired because he didn't do his job. He got fired because we're going in a different way, need someone out there with different ideas than I have, the coaches have. I don't think he's the right guy for that situation. But I don't have any complaints about Razor Shines whatsoever. It's just time we have different ideas for next year.

Then now...

I didn't like the way they were doing stuff

Looks like the same feelings to me. :dunno:

You guys are reading too much into it.

Soxfest
02-16-2008, 06:11 PM
OG *****es about who he fires but yet keeps the most worthless coach on the staff in Cora!

oeo
02-16-2008, 06:15 PM
OG *****es about who he fires but yet keeps the most worthless coach on the staff in Cora!

Wow...:rolleyes:

First of all...when did he *****?

Secondly, Harold Baines is less worthless?

Daver
02-16-2008, 06:48 PM
Wow...:rolleyes:

First of all...when did he *****?

Secondly, Harold Baines is less worthless?

Harold Baines has mastered the art of napping with authority.

Patrick134
02-16-2008, 06:59 PM
Wow...:rolleyes:

First of all...when did he *****?

Secondly, Harold Baines is less worthless?

Let's face it , baseball isn't brain surgery. 95% of coaches are interchangable, the major differences being how well they relate to the players. Coaches on winning teams will always immediately be overrated as compared to ones on losing teams, even if their approach is 100% identical.

dickallen15
02-16-2008, 07:55 PM
Here's what he had to say after firing him...



Then now...



Looks like the same feelings to me. :dunno:

You guys are reading too much into it.
The one quote says he needs someone with different ideas than the rest of the coaching staff on how to do things. The second quote says he didn't like how the fired coaches did things. If Shines did things the same as the other coaches, which the first quote seems to imply, then how does any coach still have his job if the second quote is also true?

oeo
02-16-2008, 08:03 PM
The one quote says he needs someone with different ideas than the rest of the coaching staff on how to do things. The second quote says he didn't like how the fired coaches did things. If Shines did things the same as the other coaches, which the first quote seems to imply, then how does any coach still have his job if the second quote is also true?

This is not even relevant to the argument we're having. I don't know why he picked Shines.

JB98
02-16-2008, 11:40 PM
Ozzie is classless and disrespectful. It seems every year he has to say something stupid to the press that distracts from the goal of winning baseball games. I am tired of his "it's all about me" attitude and wish he would just go away. And he can take KW with him.

I disagree. All of Ozzie's outrageous comments actually help our players. The majority of the players in MLB would rather light their shorts on fire than talk to the press. Thanks to Ozzie, the Sox players don't face a lot of media scrutiny. All the attention is focused on the manager, which allows the players to go about the business of trying to win baseball games.

btrain929
02-16-2008, 11:56 PM
If Cowley was asking Guillen about it, it was obviously something still in his mind. I know it was on mine. Kudos to Ozzie for putting it to rest.

I don't know how it came up in the interview/conversation, but I highly doubt Cowley asked Guillen about his outlook on the '08 season, and Guillen said "before I talk about that, let me tell you about why I fired these coaches in the past." I'm sure there was a question specifically about the firings and why they happened. Under that preface, I'd prefer his straight forward answer like he gave instead of a "no comment" or fluffy compliments about his former coaches.

oldcomiskey
02-17-2008, 02:45 PM
Ozzie is classless and disrespectful. It seems every year he has to say something stupid to the press that distracts from the goal of winning baseball games. I am tired of his "it's all about me" attitude and wish he would just go away. And he can take KW with him.
Do you honestly think that the Sox win in 05 without Ozzie and KW?

doublem23
02-17-2008, 02:48 PM
Holy ****, when do they start actually playing baseball games?

Brian26
02-17-2008, 02:53 PM
It's classless and disrespectful for Guillen to address this in the media, especially as you said when one coach has been gone for over a year.

I don't think anything Ozzie said was out of line, as he didn't get into specifics. He's basically reiterating that there was a difference of philosophies, and that's why Raines and Shines were let go. This is no secret, and it was addressed when both guys were originally let go (by the way, Raines wasn't a firing, but rather his contract wasn't renewed). I think this is a non-issue. A reporter asked Ozzie a question and he answered it in a rather general way.

Corlose 15
02-17-2008, 03:20 PM
Holy ****, when do they start actually playing baseball games?

SERIOUSLY!

Talk about much ado about nothing.:rolleyes:

dickallen15
02-17-2008, 03:25 PM
I disagree. All of Ozzie's outrageous comments actually help our players. The majority of the players in MLB would rather light their shorts on fire than talk to the press. Thanks to Ozzie, the Sox players don't face a lot of media scrutiny. All the attention is focused on the manager, which allows the players to go about the business of trying to win baseball games.
Right after he referred to Marriotti as a bad name in 2006, a tailspin soon began. Exactly how would popping off about Tim Raines, a guy half the team wasn't even here for when he was coaching, going to help the players?

fusillirob1983
02-17-2008, 03:47 PM
I think he got rid of them because he doesn't want a coach on his staff whose last name can describe the weather.

JB98
02-17-2008, 06:45 PM
Right after he referred to Marriotti as a bad name in 2006, a tailspin soon began. Exactly how would popping off about Tim Raines, a guy half the team wasn't even here for when he was coaching, going to help the players?

Do I have to repeat myself? I thought my post on this topic was pretty clear.

RedHeadPaleHoser
02-17-2008, 06:53 PM
Right after he referred to Marriotti as a bad name in 2006, a tailspin soon began.

Becoming PC Ozzie didn't help the situation. Please do not use ****tard's name as a pertinent reference point; we continue to do that, and dog**** thinks it is caviar.

oeo
02-17-2008, 07:05 PM
Right after he referred to Marriotti as a bad name in 2006, a tailspin soon began. Exactly how would popping off about Tim Raines, a guy half the team wasn't even here for when he was coaching, going to help the players?

Popping off? :roflmao:

Please stop, you're making a mockery of yourself.

dickallen15
02-17-2008, 09:17 PM
Do I have to repeat myself? I thought my post on this topic was pretty clear.
It was clearly incorrect as I pointed out. His name calling of Marriotti didn't help the team one bit. In fact, the team tanked right then, and there were a couple of reports of Ozzie's act growing old in the White Sox clubhouse.

dickallen15
02-17-2008, 09:23 PM
Popping off? :roflmao:

Please stop, you're making a mockery of yourself.

The only posters making a mockery of themselves are the one's who think digging into a job a coach did or didn't do a couple of years ago kicks ass. Its Jerry Springer mentality. If Raines was so bad, how did the White Sox ever win with him as a coach? If anyone thinks Tim Raines and/or Razor Shines are the reasons for the 3rd and 4th place finishes the past 2 seasons, they really have no clue. Maybe if Ozzie wants to be the "uncensored" *******, because nice guys finish last, he should rip the people really responsible for the collapse the last 2 years. Himself, Kenny Williams, and the players, not some coaches who are long gone and left the team without incident. You know, classy.

FedEx227
02-17-2008, 10:46 PM
The only posters making a mockery of themselves are the one's who think digging into a job a coach did or didn't do a couple of years ago kicks ass. Its Jerry Springer mentality. If Raines was so bad, how did the White Sox ever win with him as a coach? If anyone thinks Tim Raines and/or Razor Shines are the reasons for the 3rd and 4th place finishes the past 2 seasons, they really have no clue. Maybe if Ozzie wants to be the "uncensored" *******, because nice guys finish last, he should rip the people really responsible for the collapse the last 2 years. Himself, Kenny Williams, and the players, not some coaches who are long gone and left the team without incident. You know, classy.

While I don't agree entirely with what your saying I'd throw Greg Walker under the bus before Shines or Raines. That's for sure.

Patrick134
02-17-2008, 11:51 PM
While I don't agree entirely with what your saying I'd throw Greg Walker under the bus before Shines or Raines. That's for sure.


Coaches, much like managers, get too much credit when things go well, and too much blame when things go bad. Walker didn't get any hits 05 or 06, and he didn't strike out once in 07.

JDsDirtySox
02-18-2008, 12:08 AM
Don't forget about Art Kusnyer...
He and Shines are the two coaches that Guillen wanted out.

oeo
02-18-2008, 12:13 AM
The only posters making a mockery of themselves are the one's who think digging into a job a coach did or didn't do a couple of years ago kicks ass. Its Jerry Springer mentality. If Raines was so bad, how did the White Sox ever win with him as a coach? If anyone thinks Tim Raines and/or Razor Shines are the reasons for the 3rd and 4th place finishes the past 2 seasons, they really have no clue. Maybe if Ozzie wants to be the "uncensored" *******, because nice guys finish last, he should rip the people really responsible for the collapse the last 2 years. Himself, Kenny Williams, and the players, not some coaches who are long gone and left the team without incident. You know, classy.

Wow...you still have the idea that Ozzie flipped out and started talking about what bad people/coaches Shines and Raines were. He did not do that. You're telling yourself otherwise, that's why you're making a mockery of yourself. Please tell me where in that quote Ozzie said they were bad coaches. Please...I'll be waiting for that.

Also, when has Ozzie ever blamed the last two years on those guys? Look around, he's only put blame on himself, KW, and Jerry Reinsdorf. You really should stop.

While I don't agree entirely with what your saying I'd throw Greg Walker under the bus before Shines or Raines. That's for sure.

Considering he hasn't thrown anyone under the bus...

FedEx227
02-18-2008, 12:20 AM
Coaches, much like managers, get too much credit when things go well, and too much blame when things go bad. Walker didn't get any hits 05 or 06, and he didn't strike out once in 07.

But he certainly has led to awful scouting of relative unknown AAA starters that seem to plague the White Sox year in and year out. That's something he NEEDS to improve on, there is absolutely no reason the Jon Rheineckers and Doug Waechters of the world should shut the White Sox down and make them look clueless to what they throw, what counts they throw in, etc.

Add in the fact he has let Juan Uribe absolutely destroy his batting stance to the point where Uribe is now a shell of his former self.

No offense Patrick but your argument is without basis, because then there is absolutely no point to having a hitting coach. There is then no reason for any team in the league to have a hitting coach, yet they all do. Odd?

Patrick134
02-18-2008, 12:44 AM
But he certainly has led to awful scouting of relative unknown AAA starters that seem to plague the White Sox year in and year out. That's something he NEEDS to improve on, there is absolutely no reason the Jon Rheineckers and Doug Waechters of the world should shut the White Sox down and make them look clueless to what they throw, what counts they throw in, etc.

Add in the fact he has let Juan Uribe absolutely destroy his batting stance to the point where Uribe is now a shell of his former self.

No offense Patrick but your argument is without basis, because then there is absolutely no point to having a hitting coach. There is then no reason for any team in the league to have a hitting coach, yet they all do. Odd?


True, but this isn't little league. When dealing with multi-millionaire players, it's almost crazy to think they're listening to coaches too much anyway. Just a sad fact of today's game.

dickallen15
02-18-2008, 08:28 AM
Wow...you still have the idea that Ozzie flipped out and started talking about what bad people/coaches Shines and Raines were. He did not do that. You're telling yourself otherwise, that's why you're making a mockery of yourself. Please tell me where in that quote Ozzie said they were bad coaches. Please...I'll be waiting for that.

Also, when has Ozzie ever blamed the last two years on those guys? Look around, he's only put blame on himself, KW, and Jerry Reinsdorf. You really should stop.



Considering he hasn't thrown anyone under the bus...
If my boss said this about me:
"We had problems with a few coaches, and I fired them. I didn't like the way they were doing stuff and -- next.

I would think that he didn't think much of my coaching ability, and certainly didn't think I did a very good job. In fact, if it was about Shines, it would be totally contradictory to what he said about him when he fired him, but talking out of both sides of your mouth apparently is acceptable if your Ozzie Guillen. Some people actually think its refreshingly frank and straight, even though it can't possibly be straight when there are 2 entirely different stories.

He said his piece on Shines and Raines when he let them go. If Cowley wants more, why can't Ozzie just say I already discussed that. I'm pretty sure coaches being let go isn't an issue hanging over the team at all. When has Ozzie ever blamed Jerry Reinsdorf? Once again you tell people to stop when you are the one with bad "facts".

34 Inch Stick
02-18-2008, 09:09 AM
and yet he has no problem with joey cora

Steelrod
02-18-2008, 09:26 AM
Don't forget about Art Kusnyer...
He and Shines are the two coaches that Guillen wanted out.Totally untrue,
Kusnyer has an eye problem and cannot fly in pressurized cabins!