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ksimpson14
02-09-2008, 12:59 AM
Just in case they need bulletin board material in Detroit, here's White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen on the Tigers' offseason acquisition of SS Edgar Renteria and 3B Miguel Cabrera. "I like those players but I don't see that that makes them better. Every year, you look at the Tigers, you see they got a great lineup. They can score runs. Their problem is always in the bullpen. They didn't change that. That's going to be their problem again this year".

Source, my Sporting News magazine for this week, p. 51

Is it me or is there a famous bulletin board type quote in the AL Central every year?

gobears1987
02-09-2008, 01:07 AM
Ozzie is right. Every year we end up freaking out about the Tigers line-up. Every year we end up winning 2/3 of our games against them. The only time we lose to the Tigers is when they are the worst team in baseball. (see 2003)

WhiteSox5187
02-09-2008, 01:10 AM
I dont' think there's anyone in the Tigers organization who would disagree with that statement, especially with Zumaya being out.

oeo
02-09-2008, 01:13 AM
He's right. :dunno:

They improved their already potent lineup, yet they failed to fix their bullpen and starting rotation (which was worse than ours last year).

Some people in the mainstream media are already crowning the Tigers because of their lineup. They still need a lot of things to go right...

santo=dorf
02-09-2008, 01:23 AM
Even if their lineup is great, if they make it greater by definition that makes them better.

Also, let's say the bullpen is the weak point of the team, that doesn't mean it's going to be a "problem."

In 2005™ the White Sox's offense wasn't at the top of the league and certainly wasn't at the caliber as the starting pitching, defense, and relief pitching, but it wasn't a "problem."

In conclusion, just shut up Ozzie.

gobears1987
02-09-2008, 02:08 AM
I'm sorry, but a team is NOT going to win a championship or division with a weak bullpen. See the Reds each season and you will see what I mean. They have a potent lineup each year and still finish under .500 as they have no bullpen. The Tigers are the AL's Reds. The media can hype them, but we will still get 12 wins against them and the Tiger pen will blow games right and left.

sircaffey1
02-09-2008, 02:34 AM
The Rockies had a major league worst 29 blown saves last season. The Phillies blew 21. Compared to the WSox 23.

TheOldRoman
02-09-2008, 02:43 AM
He's right. :dunno:

They improved their already potent lineup, yet they failed to fix their bullpen and starting rotation (which was worse than ours last year).

Some people in the mainstream media are already crowning the Tigers because of their lineup. They still need a lot of things to go right...
BUTTHEYGOTTHEDTRAIN!!!

oeo
02-09-2008, 02:48 AM
Even if their lineup is great, if they make it greater by definition that makes them better.

It's a good thing you cleared that one up for us.

Also, let's say the bullpen is the weak point of the team, that doesn't mean it's going to be a "problem."Sure, it doesn't...but chances are, when your bullpen sucks and you do nothing to fix it, it will suck again.

In conclusion, just shut up Ozzie.Couldn't disagree more. Keep running your mouth, Ozzie.

JB98
02-09-2008, 03:03 AM
I agree with Oz. Detroit's bullpen sucks and its rotation is iffy, especially on the back end.

Cleveland is still the team to beat in the division, IMO.

FarWestChicago
02-09-2008, 07:55 AM
Even if their lineup is great, if they make it greater by definition that makes them better.

Also, let's say the bullpen is the weak point of the team, that doesn't mean it's going to be a "problem."Dorf, we all know you are into predictions and being an internet genius, for whatever reason. Are you now declaring the '08 Tigers to be The Big Red Machine? Are you saying the will mash their way to the WS title no matter what dreck they put on the mound? If you're not, perhaps you, rather than Ozzie, should calm down. Step up Einstein. Make your big prediction in huge bold letters or tone it down. It's up to you. :smile:

dickallen15
02-09-2008, 08:05 AM
Ozzie is right. Every year we end up freaking out about the Tigers line-up. Every year we end up winning 2/3 of our games against them. The only time we lose to the Tigers is when they are the worst team in baseball. (see 2003)
I don't recall every "freaking out" about the Tigers until last season. They were horrible for a long time, and suddenly in 2006 surprisingly turned it around. Maybe last offseason the Tigers looked good on paper, and sorry to say finished with a better record than the White Sox. With as bad as the White Sox bullpen has been the last 2 seasons, Ozzie really is out of line to say anything about Detroit's. Signing Linebrink and Dotel are big moves, but it remains to be seen how Linebrink , a guy who has a tendency to give up homers, will do in the AL and USCF, and if Dotel can remain healthy.
Could you imagine the thread on this board if before the last 2 seasons Eric Wedge, or Leyland, or Gardenhire said they weren't worried about the White Sox because of their bullpen. Ozzie needs to worry about the White Sox, and keep his mouth shut on his perceived thoughts on other team's deficiencies, and hope he's right.

areilly
02-09-2008, 10:42 AM
I'm sorry, but a team is NOT going to win a championship or division with a weak bullpen.

I believe Joe Borowski's being the star-by-default of not one but two division champion bullpens nullifies that theory.

Boston's '04 bullpen wasn't too terrifying before Foulke, either. 2000 Yankees' relief corps wasn't so hot. And let's not even get started on the 2006 Cardinals.

It's foolish to think that one weak area will destroy a team. As posted before, you need balance. If the Tigers' offense can produce more than their pitching and defense surrender more often than not, they will win. End of story.

RowanDye
02-09-2008, 10:53 AM
He's right. :dunno:

They improved their already potent lineup, yet they failed to fix their bullpen and starting rotation (which was worse than ours last year).

Some people in the mainstream media are already crowning the Tigers because of their lineup. They still need a lot of things to go right...

All of the supposed "juggernauts" of the AL need a lot of things to right, except maybe for Boston.

Both Cleveland and Detroit have thin starting and relief pitching. If they lose one or two guys to injury or decline they will struggle.

Counting on Todd Jones or Joe Borowski to close games for you is very risky.

The Sox probably need to have MORE things go right (or less things go wrong) than Cle or Det, but there is no reason they can't win the division.

DumpJerry
02-09-2008, 11:34 AM
This isn't bulletin board material. This is Ozzie letting people know he won't be intimidated easily. I think the Sox and Tigers will surprise a lot of people this year. In ways that will make us happy.

fquaye149
02-09-2008, 12:29 PM
Dorf, we all know you are into predictions and being an internet genius, for whatever reason. Are you now declaring the '08 Tigers to be The Big Red Machine? Are you saying the will mash their way to the WS title no matter what dreck they put on the mound? If you're not, perhaps you, rather than Ozzie, should calm down. Step up Einstein. Make your big prediction in huge bold letters or tone it down. It's up to you. :smile:

You don't have a font big enough for dorf

chisoxmike
02-09-2008, 12:49 PM
I agree with Oz. Detroit's bullpen sucks and its rotation is iffy, especially on the back end.

Cleveland is still the team to beat in the division, IMO.

Agreed.

cburns
02-09-2008, 01:11 PM
Boston's '04 bullpen wasn't too terrifying before Foulke, either. 2000 Yankees' relief corps wasn't so hot. And let's not even get started on the 2006 Cardinals.


Don't the Cards traditionally have good to great bullpens? I always thought LaRussa and Duncan were able to get good innings out of bad pitchers.

ShoelessJoeS
02-09-2008, 01:15 PM
Lol, I love Ozzie.

santo=dorf
02-09-2008, 03:59 PM
Dorf, we all know you are into predictions and being an internet genius, for whatever reason. Are you now declaring the '08 Tigers to be The Big Red Machine? Are you saying the will mash their way to the WS title no matter what dreck they put on the mound? If you're not, perhaps you, rather than Ozzie, should calm down. Step up Einstein. Make your big prediction in huge bold letters or tone it down. It's up to you. :smile:
Actually I don't make predictions just for the fact if I look back on them, some extremist like you will say "OMG, you're such an egomaniac. I bet you want Detroit to WIN just so you can be right!" Or, "that's just hindsight. Prove it." Then I have to do someone else's homework and dig up the post.

Their offense will be better, but who the hell knows with their pitching. That's why, at this point in time, I think they're good enough for second place and not the wild card. Sorry I don't have the Sox penciled in for a 11-0 playoff like most of the others agreeing with Ozzie here.

fquaye149
02-09-2008, 05:14 PM
Actually I don't make predictions just for the fact if I look back on them, some extremist like you will say "OMG, you're such an egomaniac. I bet you want Detroit to WIN just so you can be right!" Or, "that's just hindsight. Prove it." Then I have to do someone else's homework and dig up the post.

Their offense will be better, but who the hell knows with their pitching. That's why, at this point in time, I think they're good enough for second place and not the wild card. Sorry I don't have the Sox penciled in for a 11-0 playoff like most of the others agreeing with Ozzie here.

Where did Ozzie pencil us in for an 11-0 playoff?

even in 2005, (when we didn't know what would happen because the game's not played on paper and that's why they play the games) we didn't even go 11-0 in the playoffs!!!

chisox77
02-09-2008, 08:42 PM
You have to love Ozzie and his honesty.


:cool:

FarWestChicago
02-09-2008, 08:48 PM
Actually I don't make predictions just for the fact if I look back on them, some extremist like you will say "OMG, you're such an egomaniac. I bet you want Detroit to WIN just so you can be right!"That's quite inaccurate. I wouldn't use the "OMG". :tsk:

Mohoney
02-10-2008, 06:59 AM
Whether Ozzie SHOULD say things like this or not is irrelevant. All that is relevant is if you agree or disagree with his line of thinking that Detroit's bullpen is a problem going into 2008.

If our manager is counting on winning a lot of games against them in the late innings in come-from-behind fashion, then this comment is indeed relevant to us because it reveals our organizational strategy on how we plan to go about beating them. Other than that, any "trash talking" or "bulletin board material" element in the comment should be immediately disregarded. Only meatball fans buy into that kind of crap.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-10-2008, 10:15 AM
"I like those players but I don't see that that makes them better. Every year, you look at the Tigers, you see they got a great lineup. They can score runs. Their problem is always in the bullpen. They didn't change that. That's going to be their problem again this year".

As bulletin board material goes, this is pretty weak. The fact Ozzie uttered it in February makes it weaker still.

I can't see major league ballplayers getting too wound up about this stuff. I know Gardenhire loves these junior high motivational tricks, but his Twins win because they have some pretty good ballplayers, not Gardenhire's carny act.
:cool:

raven1
02-10-2008, 10:28 AM
I agree that this is pretty mild stuff, especially by Ozzie's norms. He makes a very good point - if you compare Detroit or Cleveland's lineups to the White Sox, they are very even. Equal numbers of strengths & weaknesses, any of those teams could easily win the division or fall out of contention based on how their "risk" players/positions break.

Remember, the Sox ended up with a losing season last year not because of their record against Detroit & other AL "powerhouse" teams - it was their poor showing against the NL & other weak teams they should have beat easily that did them in.

areilly
02-10-2008, 11:15 AM
Remember, the Sox ended up with a losing season last year not because of their record against Detroit & other AL "powerhouse" teams - it was their poor showing against the NL & other weak teams they should have beat easily that did them in.

For the record, the 2007 Sox had winning records against the following:
Detroit (11-7)
Kansas City (12-6)
Los Angeles of Anaheim (5-4)
Tampa Bay (6-1)

The other 14 teams run the spectrum just as wildly in terms of team quality, and this also means the Sox went 38-72 against everyone else.

Against playoff teams:
Boston (1-7)
New York Yankees (4-6)
Cleveland (7-11)
LAA (5-4)
Cubs (1-5)
Phillies (0-3)

For all intents and purposes, it's the other way around: shame on LAA for not beating the Sox more, and shame on Detroit for missing the Wild Card because they couldn't beat the second-weakest team in their division.

Your argument is flawed in that yes, they got smoked by weak teams, but they were also smoked by the good teams. Which makes sense - because they themselves were a weak team; among the weakest. This foundation of mediocrity is what the Sox are starting from, and this is why so many people are worried.

HaroMaster87
02-12-2008, 12:41 AM
The Sox probably need to have MORE things go right (or less things go wrong) than Cle or Det, but there is no reason they can't win the division.

BRAVO sir...my feelings exactly...AGAIN, NO ONE picked us to even win the division in 2005. Though, our '08 rotation does make me a bit more nervous than our '05 version did....but i do like this line-up better:dtroll:

Soxfanspcu11
02-12-2008, 01:12 AM
(when we didn't know what would happen because the game's not played on paper and that's why they play the games)

Exactly!

I am not a big fan of "Pre-Season Predictions". It's easy to look at a team on paper, in February and say, "Oh, they are strong in this category, weak in this one." And while it may give a bit of an insight to a team, it fails to answer most questions. As you said, that's why you PLAY THE GAMES!

So much can change throughout the course of a 162 game season, that trying to correctly predict what is going to happen is pretty foolish.

In February 2005, we were supposed to finish 4th in the Division.

In February 2006, we were suppose to be the best team in baseball.

We will just have to wait and see what happens!:D:

we be jake
02-12-2008, 02:31 AM
Could you imagine the thread on this board if before the last 2 seasons Eric Wedge, or Leyland, or Gardenhire said they weren't worried about the White Sox because of their bullpen. Ozzie needs to worry about the White Sox, and keep his mouth shut on his perceived thoughts on other team's deficiencies, and hope he's right.

It seems like every spring Ozzie says something stupid and distracting that takes half the season for people to stop talking about. I hope this year we can focus on the players and less about Ozzie "It's All About Me" Guillen.

Whitesox029
02-12-2008, 03:42 PM
Source, my Sporting News magazine for this week, p. 51

Is it me or is there a famous bulletin board type quote in the AL Central every year?
I would concur with many people so far and say that that's not really bulletin board material. Bulletin board material is usually something cocky and challenging. Ozzie's just stating what's probably the truth, which he's known to do.

areilly
02-12-2008, 05:26 PM
It seems like every spring Ozzie says something stupid and distracting that takes half the season for people to stop talking about. I hope this year we can focus on the players and less about Ozzie "It's All About Me" Guillen.

Believe it or not, Ozzie's methods (beyond just talking ****) are straight out of management 101: take the pressure off the individuals and put it on the team and on the figurehead. In this case, if people are talking about about Ozzie's big mouth, then they're not talking about things like Paulie's lead cleats, Owens' Swiss cheese bat, or Kenny's itchy trigger finger.