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View Full Version : Our once vaunted pitching depth


hold2dibber
04-22-2002, 01:49 PM
I am extremely disturbed about what KW has done to the organization's pitching depth over the last two years. Off the top of my head, he has traded Wells, Lowe, Fogg, Baldwin, Bradford, Guerrier and Sirotka and the only pitchers we have in return, who are contributing on the MLB level, are Ritchie and Marte. It is obvious that this team is good enough to contend, but it is also obvious that the Twins are for real (their bullpen is much better than advertised, they are deep, fast, hard working, great defensively, and well-balanced offensively). If we need another starting pitcher in a few months (and I'm guessing we will) what trade bait do we have left in the minors or otherwise to use? And I'm increasingly concerned about the organization's ability to evaluate pitching talent. It never seemed to me that Buehrle was considered a top prospect in the organization - they had Wells and Garland and Barcelo ahead of him on the depth chart going into spring training last year. And I think (and thought last year after watching him in September) that Josh Fogg is going to be an outstanding major league pitcher. I don't think the Sox knew what they had in him. I'm sorry this is kind of all over the map, but I think this team has a chance to be very special, but they'll need more pitching and I fear that KW doesn't have the depth left in the system to get it done without decimating the team in the future (or the acumen to trade the "right" guys and save the keepers).

Paulwny
04-22-2002, 02:04 PM
I agree with most of your post.
I think pitching is the most difficult position to evaluate. All of a sudden a guy develops a new pitch, a different delivery, a different mind set, gets the butterflies out of his system,etc. etc. and he becomes a pitcher instead of a thrower.
Minor league no's don't tell the whole story. How many of us thought Scott Ruffcorn was the next Cy Young? No one could hit him in the minors no one could't hit him in the majors.
I hate trading a young pitcher because you never know what may happen.

Tragg
04-22-2002, 03:32 PM
Good post.

We don't seem to evaluate our own talent that well.

And we are too eager to ship youngsters away for mediocre veterans.

doctor30th
04-22-2002, 03:46 PM
Listen Josh Fogg isnt' all that and a bag of chips. He's started 3 games. 2 against the offensively struggling Cubs and 1 against the recently error prone and offensively struggling Philliies. Wait until he plays the Mets, Braves, San Fran, even montreal.

He's a good pitcher, but His great start is due to the teams he's faced.

Wells is still inconsistant, Sirotka won't play a day for Toronto. Guerrier is struggling in AAA, Lowe is still a good pitcher.

Twins pitching is great right now, but last year it was great too, then it started to fail after the all-star break.

What I think you don't realize is that we still have pitching depth. But looking at the negative seems to be more fun to do here.

Bmr31
04-22-2002, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I am extremely disturbed about what KW has done to the organization's pitching depth over the last two years. Off the top of my head, he has traded Wells, Lowe, Fogg, Baldwin, Bradford, Guerrier and Sirotka and the only pitchers we have in return, who are contributing on the MLB level, are Ritchie and Marte. It is obvious that this team is good enough to contend, but it is also obvious that the Twins are for real (their bullpen is much better than advertised, they are deep, fast, hard working, great defensively, and well-balanced offensively). If we need another starting pitcher in a few months (and I'm guessing we will) what trade bait do we have left in the minors or otherwise to use? And I'm increasingly concerned about the organization's ability to evaluate pitching talent. It never seemed to me that Buehrle was considered a top prospect in the organization - they had Wells and Garland and Barcelo ahead of him on the depth chart going into spring training last year. And I think (and thought last year after watching him in September) that Josh Fogg is going to be an outstanding major league pitcher. I don't think the Sox knew what they had in him. I'm sorry this is kind of all over the map, but I think this team has a chance to be very special, but they'll need more pitching and I fear that KW doesn't have the depth left in the system to get it done without decimating the team in the future (or the acumen to trade the "right" guys and save the keepers).


The guys you named are very marginal. While we didnt get much in return, we didnt give up much either. I think the problem is hawk harrelson, myself. He keeps building all these guys up to being the next STUD, when in reality, theyre just decent prospects. I mean come on, admit it, according to hawk, all our young guys are great.

Kilroy
04-22-2002, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I am extremely disturbed about what KW has done to the organization's pitching depth over the last two years. Off the top of my head, he has traded Wells, Lowe, Fogg, Baldwin, Bradford, Guerrier and Sirotka and the only pitchers we have in return, who are contributing on the MLB level, are Ritchie and Marte.

Well, what have we really traded?

Wells - all he ever did for the Sox was make Sox fans throw things at the TV. Maybe he'll have some success in the NL, but we saw him get his ass kicked a lot in the AL. I'd seen enuf.

Lowe - Solid. Dependable. Wish we still had him.

Fogg - An unknown commodity. He's looked pretty good against the weak ass Cubs, but then he pitched against more of a real line-up in the Phils and went 5, giving up 3 runs on 4 hits, w/ 4 BB. Still not bad, but the jury is still out.

Baldwin - Would have been great to keep him at what the M's are paying him, but he wasn't worth the 6 mil he was signed for last year, and he would have been asking for more. If we hadn't traded him we'd have 0 in return for letting him walk. JB could be solid if he ever put it all together, but he never did in the 5-6 years he pitched for the Sox.

Bradford - This is a guy the Sox could probably use right now. But he's pitching well right now, and had been decent in the past. His current average is 21 innings a year. So I think the Sox can find someone to give us that.

Guerrier - Another unknown commodity. Could be good, could be crap.

Sirotka - Hasn't thrown an ML pitch since the Sox traded him. 'Nuff said.

So the answer is that we traded a head case, an overpriced underachiever, a rag arm, two unknowns, one half-way decent guy that doesn't pitch very many innings, and one solid relief pitcher.

Maybe you see it differently, but I only miss one of those guys. Naah, maybe 2. JB was a favorite of mine, but not because he was the greatest pitcher...

CerberusWG
04-22-2002, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



The guys you named are very marginal. While we didnt get much in return, we didnt give up much either. I think the problem is hawk harrelson, myself. He keeps building all these guys up to being the next STUD, when in reality, theyre just decent prospects. I mean come on, admit it, according to hawk, all our young guys are great.


Bingo. I remember last year when Hawk was raving about Julio Ramirze, how he was this great 5 tool player, etc.

Then, he sucked ass.

doctor30th
04-22-2002, 04:05 PM
Bingo. I remember last year when Hawk was raving about Julio Ramirze, how he was this great 5 tool player, etc.

Then, he sucked ass.

Now now, Hawk said that if Julio had the potential to be a five tool player. Then he pointed out that he isn't yet because of his offensive woahs. And he wasn't wrong about that. So he was just a 3 tool player. Arm, Catch, Speed. No power or Average.

And yes, he does suck.

Bmr31
04-22-2002, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by CerberusWG



Bingo. I remember last year when Hawk was raving about Julio Ramirze, how he was this great 5 tool player, etc.

Then, he sucked ass.

If you listen to him carefully, he does it with all of them. When they struggle, he comes up with some "logical" excuse ....like ..."well Rauch just isnt built to pitch in cold weather." results are all that matter, and so far, im sorry to say, that load of young prospects we supposedly had, has turned out to be disappointing.

doctor30th
04-22-2002, 04:10 PM
Still Hawks "excuses" for the players aren't half as bad as teh super contradictory Cubs announcers.


I remember during spring training. Cubs-Sox game, Cubs broadcast. In the beginning of the game they were talking how teh White sox can't use teh Arizona air as an excuse for thier pitching. Then after the cubs pitcher gave up like 5 runs, they couldn't stop talking about how the Arizona Air effects the pitching.

hold2dibber
04-22-2002, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



The guys you named are very marginal. While we didnt get much in return, we didnt give up much either. I think the problem is hawk harrelson, myself. He keeps building all these guys up to being the next STUD, when in reality, theyre just decent prospects. I mean come on, admit it, according to hawk, all our young guys are great.

Our supposed organization pitching depth has been the subject of much commentary beyond anything Hawk has said; publication after publication has, in the past few years, touted the depth of the Sox' organization's pitching. And I always thought that the best thing about having that depth was that you could trade it for guys who could help now (because it is so hard to tell whether a minor league pitcher will ever make it). But KW has not turned that depth into much of anything. I mean, I really like Ritchie, and I think Marte might be okay, but I think he made a mistake in trading away Fogg and I can't imagine that they couldn't have gotten more for Guerrier; the guy's minor league stats were impeccible. So now we have the guys who are already in the majors (all of whom, other than Buehrle, remain huge question marks) plus Malone, Ulacia, Almonte and Honel? Anyone else down there I should feel good about? Or who could help us fetch a solid #3 or 4 starter?

Bmr31
04-22-2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


Our supposed organization pitching depth has been the subject of much commentary beyond anything Hawk has said; publication after publication has, in the past few years, touted the depth of the Sox' organization's pitching. And I always thought that the best thing about having that depth was that you could trade it for guys who could help now (because it is so hard to tell whether a minor league pitcher will ever make it). But KW has not turned that depth into much of anything. I mean, I really like Ritchie, and I think Marte might be okay, but I think he made a mistake in trading away Fogg and I can't imagine that they couldn't have gotten more for Guerrier; the guy's minor league stats were impeccible. So now we have the guys who are already in the majors (all of whom, other than Buehrle, remain huge question marks) plus Malone, Ulacia, Almonte and Honel? Anyone else down there I should feel good about? Or who could help us fetch a solid #3 or 4 starter?


dont forget all the injuries. That hasnt helped......

doctor30th
04-22-2002, 04:22 PM
Ok, Guerrier is not doing better than any of our other prospect have done.

You can feel good (just AAA & AA) about Almonte, Wade Parrish, Joe Valentine, Brian West, Josh Stewart, Rob Purvis. They have all pitched very well so far.

Majewski, Malone, Corey Lee, and Ulacia have all had some whoas but have done ok.

Of them West, Parrish, Stewart are all doing well starting, malone and the other starters just need some work.

Wunsch finally pitched the other day. faced 3 batters, gave up 2 hits got one out. Looks like he'll take a little longer to get back.

moochpuppy
04-22-2002, 04:24 PM
Well the first problem I see here is that anyone listens to Hawk's talent evaluating in the first place. Those that do must be too young to remember the Hawk Harrelson GM era. :smile:

It is way too early to come to any sort of conclusion about any of the above mentioned pitchers. All that pitching talent was not going to pitch for the Sox anyway (enter beating a dead horse here) so you pick and choose which ones to keep and which ones to trade and hopefully you make the right pick and there is nothing that shows me that KW has made a mistake.

If you want to talk trade bait, there is an ample supply of outfielders that can be sent in a deal, including Lee and Rowand.

hold2dibber
04-22-2002, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Well, what have we really traded?

Wells - all he ever did for the Sox was make Sox fans throw things at the TV. Maybe he'll have some success in the NL, but we saw him get his ass kicked a lot in the AL. I'd seen enuf.

Lowe - Solid. Dependable. Wish we still had him.

Fogg - An unknown commodity. He's looked pretty good against the weak ass Cubs, but then he pitched against more of a real line-up in the Phils and went 5, giving up 3 runs on 4 hits, w/ 4 BB. Still not bad, but the jury is still out.

Baldwin - Would have been great to keep him at what the M's are paying him, but he wasn't worth the 6 mil he was signed for last year, and he would have been asking for more. If we hadn't traded him we'd have 0 in return for letting him walk. JB could be solid if he ever put it all together, but he never did in the 5-6 years he pitched for the Sox.

Bradford - This is a guy the Sox could probably use right now. But he's pitching well right now, and had been decent in the past. His current average is 21 innings a year. So I think the Sox can find someone to give us that.

Guerrier - Another unknown commodity. Could be good, could be crap.

Sirotka - Hasn't thrown an ML pitch since the Sox traded him. 'Nuff said.

So the answer is that we traded a head case, an overpriced underachiever, a rag arm, two unknowns, one half-way decent guy that doesn't pitch very many innings, and one solid relief pitcher.

Maybe you see it differently, but I only miss one of those guys. Naah, maybe 2. JB was a favorite of mine, but not because he was the greatest pitcher...

I don't have any major disagreements with your assesments; and maybe I'm being delusional, but I just think we could have gotten more for those guys in light of the scouting reports (or at least according to the media's version of those reports).

doctor30th
04-22-2002, 04:29 PM
Don't worry, I don't take much stock in Hawks analysis. But I will give him some credit on the Julio thing.

As for why I listed the above players. People want to worry about our prospects and that we traded them all. I just wanted to let them know that we still have a good deal of them. More than we will ever need.

moochpuppy
04-22-2002, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
I just wanted to let them know that we still have a good deal of them. More than we will ever need.

Exactly the point!

Randar68
04-22-2002, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
Ok, Guerrier is not doing better than any of our other prospect have done.

You can feel good (just AAA & AA) about Almonte, Wade Parrish, Joe Valentine, Brian West, Josh Stewart, Rob Purvis. They have all pitched very well so far.

Majewski, Malone, Corey Lee, and Ulacia have all had some whoas but have done ok.

Of them West, Parrish, Stewart are all doing well starting, malone and the other starters just need some work.

Wunsch finally pitched the other day. faced 3 batters, gave up 2 hits got one out. Looks like he'll take a little longer to get back.

You mentioned several nothings in front of pitchers like Wyatt Allen, Ryan Wing, Kris Honel, others who are more worthy of mention...

doctor30th
04-22-2002, 05:35 PM
If you read, I said just AAA and AA. Those are pitchers that could have a chance of coming up if there are any problems.

The pitchers you mentioned are all still A ball pitchers. They are not coming up for at least 2 years.