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View Full Version : If the Sox fall out of contention they should.....


MattSharp
04-22-2002, 11:05 AM
Not don't get me wrong, I don't think they will. I mean I am already setting aside my WS money, but let's say they crumble.

Trading Ray is a must. With the season he is having someone will certainly pick him up. With Hummel AND Harris waiting behind him theres no reason not to.

Trade Carlos Lee. I think this guy isn't gonna get much better and you look at what they got for Singleton, I think they could do at least that good with Lee. With Borchard waiting in the wings, you gotta clear up some space. You could move Mags to LF, Borchard to RF, and then either have Harris or Rowand in CF. My vote goes for Rowand cause I would like to see Harris at 2B and Hummel at SS. Then bring Crede and put him at 3B.

If the Sox traded Jose, CLee, The Choice, Durham, and Sandy Alomar they could come up with somethin they need. I don't know what. But I think that could have some potential.

Soxboyrob
04-22-2002, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by MattSharp

Trade Carlos Lee. I think this guy isn't gonna get much better and you look at what they got for Singleton, I think they could do at least that good with Lee. With Borchard waiting in the wings, you gotta clear up some space. You could move Mags to LF, Borchard to RF, and then either have Harris or Rowand in CF. My vote goes for Rowand cause I would like to see Harris at 2B and Hummel at SS. Then bring Crede and put him at 3B.



Why move Maggs? I'd leave him in RF and put Rowand in LF. I think Rowand is better than Lee is right now, much less next year. Rowand has a better eye and will get more walks and I think he might be a better hitter at this particular time also.

Randar68
04-22-2002, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


Why move Maggs? I'd leave him in RF and put Rowand in LF. I think Rowand is better than Lee is right now, much less next year. Rowand has a better eye and will get more walks and I think he might be a better hitter at this particular time also.

What sample space are you judging Rowand over? He hasn't even had 200 major league at-bats yet!

On the other Hand, Borchard has a better arm than Maggs and Maggs would be the best LF'er in the AL. This is all hypothetical however.

As for the original, I think Hummel would probably make at least as many errors in a season as Jose at SS. The Sox now have a ton of guys capable at 2B who are fringe SS's. Hummel is one of them. The only potential Major League SS's are in Low A and short-season ball, in Guillermo Reyes and Andy Gonzalez, so they obviously are well off!

Also, Harris looked somewhat lost and/or uncomfortable in CF during Spring games.

Crede at 3rd, Hummel or Harris at 2nd, and I'm still not sure about CF. I know Joe could play there, but I don't know if he would have to. If they could tie up Lofton for a few years, it might not be all bad if they could get him for a good price.

An outfield of Kenny, Maggs and Joe, with an infield of Crede, Jose/???, Hummel/Harris, Konerko

Olivo and MJ sharing Catching duties, and Frank at DH. That's a pretty affordable and solid lineup...

doublem23
04-22-2002, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


Why move Maggs? I'd leave him in RF and put Rowand in LF. I think Rowand is better than Lee is right now, much less next year. Rowand has a better eye and will get more walks and I think he might be a better hitter at this particular time also.

Borchard has a better arm.

MattSharp
04-22-2002, 11:32 AM
I agree with what you guys have said about Borchard. First of all he use to be a QB, and from what I have heard he has a cannon. Let's face it, Mags is an average fielder with an average arm. I think hes a perfect fit for LF. Plus why would you want Borchard running any more than he needs to by palying CF. Thats what you got Crash Rowand for......

doublem23
04-22-2002, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by MattSharp
I agree with what you guys have said about Borchard. First of all he use to be a QB, and from what I have heard he has a cannon. Let's face it, Mags is an average fielder with an average arm. I think hes a perfect fit for LF. Plus why would you want Borchard running any more than he needs to by palying CF. Thats what you got Crash Rowand for......

Well, if we're talking about this year, did we all forget about Mr. Leadoff?

:lofton
I can still play.

Though, if the Sox do fall out of contention, KW could get some major talent for Lofton, what with his low salary and what not.

Randar68
04-22-2002, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by MattSharp
I agree with what you guys have said about Borchard. First of all he use to be a QB, and from what I have heard he has a cannon. Let's face it, Mags is an average fielder with an average arm. I think hes a perfect fit for LF. Plus why would you want Borchard running any more than he needs to by palying CF. Thats what you got Crash Rowand for......

My concerns about Joe in CF and Hummel at 2B is where do you play a leadoff hitter? We have seen this offense flourish with a true leadoff hitter out there, but if you have Hummel and Joe at the 2 most prevalent positions for a leadoff hitter, where do you play one and who?

Harris is the only guy in our upper levels that I think could fill the leadoff void at least at a mid-level, but he plays 2B and CF. Somethings gotta give, and I think you are going to see Joe moved around a little in the OF this year when he comes back....

MattSharp
04-22-2002, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


My concerns about Joe in CF and Hummel at 2B is where do you play a leadoff hitter? We have seen this offense flourish with a true leadoff hitter out there, but if you have Hummel and Joe at the 2 most prevalent positions for a leadoff hitter, where do you play one and who?

Harris is the only guy in our upper levels that I think could fill the leadoff void at least at a mid-level, but he plays 2B and CF. Somethings gotta give, and I think you are going to see Joe moved around a little in the OF this year when he comes back....

You quoted me, but I said put Joe in RF and Rowand in CF. I also said earlier to put Hummel at SS and Harris at 2B. Leaving you with this lineup:

2B Harris
SS Hummel
DH Thomas
LF Ordonez
1B Konerko
RF Borchard
3B Crede
CF Rowand
C Johnson

voodoochile
04-22-2002, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp


You quoted me, but I said put Joe in RF and Rowand in CF. I also said earlier to put Hummel at SS and Harris at 2B. Leaving you with this lineup:

2B Harris
SS Hummel
DH Thomas
LF Ordonez
1B Konerko
RF Borchard
3B Crede
CF Rowand
C Johnson

That would definitely be a major step back offensively and defensively from this years team. It would put the Sox years away from contention, IMO - where as the current team may be as little as one solid starter from being pennant contenders. If they go that far, there will be lots of upset Sox fans. There is NO guarantee that any of the AAA guys will perform when they hit the bigs, nor that Rowand will continue to hit for power and average once the other teams see him everyday. This guy was Leifer/Valenzuela a year ago. The fact that he made the team was almost a fluke. Can he do it consistently, no one knows...

I like Randar's idea from earlier for next year - re-sign Lofton, trade Lee for pitching and bring up Harris, Crede and Borchard next year. Those guys are the most MLB ready and the team would not be making a major step back next year in terms of veteran talent. They also wouldn't lose that much defensively, though the "Jose at SS haters" may disagree...

The lineup would look like this...

Lofton CF
Valentin SS
Frank DH
Maggs LF
Konerko 1B
Borchard RF
Crede 3B
Johnson C
Harris 2B

I can live with that...

MattSharp
04-22-2002, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
That would definitely be a major step back offensively and defensively from this years team.

But that's my point. If this team can't go into the 2nd round of the playoffs they never will. No one on the offense side of this team is gonna get better. Lofton, Valentin, Clayton, Thomas, Durham, Alomar are all on the downsides of their career. Ordonez and Konerko can't get too much better, and Carlos Lee prolly won't either. So if this is the best the team can be and they can't get into the 2nd round of the playoffs they enver will.

As for pitching, who out there could the Sox manage to get? Another Todd Ritchie is not the answer. They need a GOOD No. 2 starter. That way Richie could be No. 3 which I think fits him and Wright and Garland could be sufficient number 4 an 5 guys. If you think about it, what they need is someone in between Ritchie and Buehrle who can eat up innings and win 12-16 games.....

Randar68
04-22-2002, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile

The lineup would look like this...

Lofton CF
Valentin SS
Frank DH
Maggs LF
Konerko 1B
Borchard RF
Crede 3B
Johnson C
Harris 2B

I can live with that...

Actually, my idea would be to have Hummel as the everyday 2B, as I think he is more ready offensively and defensively at 2B. Also, he is the ideal #2 hitter. If we are grooming Harris for leadoff duties, I think he would be better served playing all next year at CF (with Lofton as our CF'er for one more year, or more if cheap) with Harris learning the CF and leadoff positions better.

Hummel could step right in and be a good #2 hitter, IMO.

I think asking Hummel, Harris, or any of the above to play SS full time is a HUGE mistake and risk. We either need to let Jose play there or get one from outside the organization. Our only SS prospects are 3 years away at the earliest.

Soxboyrob
04-22-2002, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Randar68

What sample space are you judging Rowand over? He hasn't even had 200 major league at-bats yet!


I agree that demonstrating that Rowand could be more valuable than Lee is almost impossible to demonstrate via statistics, so I'll do my best without the help of them, for the most part.

In watching the way Rowand approaches at bats, he appears to me to be a guy that knows where his strengths and his weaknesses are. When he came to the Sox, he was noted to be a guy that hits for decent power and K's a lot. He immediately shortened his swing and became more selective with pitches and appeared to make reaching base his number one priority. In doing so, he became an integral part of our offense for the final 1/3 of last year and even hit an occasional home run. I haven't any reason to believe that he'll have changed this approach, as I think Aaron is smart enough to see that we don't really need for him to provide a power stroke if he can just reach base consistently.

Conversely, Lee has been an almost horrible hitter since the 2001 allstar game. His OBP is in Royce Clayton range. His successes at the plate appear to me to be nothing more than the product of guessing the pitch correctly and ripping it. He seems to approach taking walks as if a walk will spread some sort of deadly virus to him. For the most part, I think CLee looks like he hasn't a clue when he's up to bat. It's a shame he doesn't prioritize reaching base a little bit more, because he's an excellent baserunner when he's actually on base.

For my money, I'd take Rowand in LF. I think he brings at least as much to the table offensively and would be a better defensive player than Lee.

Randar68
04-22-2002, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp
what they need is someone in between Ritchie and Buehrle who can eat up innings and win 12-16 games.....

I thought that is exactly what Ritchie is!?!?!?

Randar68
04-22-2002, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob

Conversely, Lee has been an almost horrible hitter since the 2001 allstar game. His OBP is in Royce Clayton range. His successes at the plate appear to me to be nothing more than the product of guessing the pitch correctly and ripping it. He seems to approach taking walks as if a walk will spread some sort of deadly virus to him. For the most part, I think CLee looks like he hasn't a clue when he's up to bat. It's a shame he doesn't prioritize reaching base a little bit more, because he's an excellent baserunner when he's actually on base.


Have you not watched Carlos at all this year?

In addition, can you tell me Rowand will ever hit 30 HR's or 100 RBI's?

MattSharp
04-22-2002, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


I thought that is exactly what Ritchie is!?!?!?

Ritchie is not a No. 2 start though. The guy has got an average of 5 runs per game of support and in 4 starts hes 1-1. No to mention the fact that he is barely averageing 6 IP a game. That doesn't sound like a No 2 man to me......

Soxboyrob
04-22-2002, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by Randar68

On the other Hand, Borchard has a better arm than Maggs and Maggs would be the best LF'er in the AL. This is all hypothetical however.



I was always under the impression that you were a pretty big advocate of Borchard's defensive CF abilities. Bearing that in mind, I liked the idea of a Rowand, Borch, Maggs outfield. If you now like the idea of Borch in RF, then I'd put Maggs in LF, re-sign Lofton and keep Rowand as our 4th OF'er. My guess is that during Borch's rookie season, Rowand would get a lot of his PT anyway. The thought of Rowand in CF makes me a little bit itchy. I'm willing to try it, but fear that he'd occasionally really hurt us w/ some bonehead maneuvers out there. JMO.

voodoochile
04-22-2002, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Actually, my idea would be to have Hummel as the everyday 2B, as I think he is more ready offensively and defensively at 2B. Also, he is the ideal #2 hitter. If we are grooming Harris for leadoff duties, I think he would be better served playing all next year at CF (with Lofton as our CF'er for one more year, or more if cheap) with Harris learning the CF and leadoff positions better.

Hummel could step right in and be a good #2 hitter, IMO.

I think asking Hummel, Harris, or any of the above to play SS full time is a HUGE mistake and risk. We either need to let Jose play there or get one from outside the organization. Our only SS prospects are 3 years away at the earliest.

That's cool I chose Harris, but with Hummel in the minors (or vice versa) the Sox would be able to bring him up if Hummel/Harris failed. In my lineup, I was looking for a way to move Jose back to 6th, and you did it. I was leaning toward moving Crede to second in the order, but your idea makes more sense. That way Harris can get more time at CF and become the prototypical leadoff guy we need. The only problem is will Lofton sign a one year contract? If he continues to excel this year then someone will offer him a multi-year deal.

Lofton, Valentin, Clayton, Thomas, Durham, Alomar are all on the downsides of their career.

Matt - if the offense falters this year, I'll eat my keyboard. If the Sox don't make the second round, it will be due to pitching, not hitting or defense. Just because a guy is not 27 doesn't mean a decline is inevitable. All of the players you mentioned as being on the decline are having great years so far and for all we know they will have many more, but, if it helps, Clayton and Alomar are definitely gone and Durham is half-way out the door already. That only leaves Lofton (who is probably gone unless the Sox offer him a multi-year deal), Valentin (who seems to be ageless and getting stronger) and Frank - who is only one of the best hitters in the game and could decline quite a bit and still be a premier player. Not too shabby...

Randar68
04-22-2002, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp


Ritchie is not a No. 2 start though. The guy has got an average of 5 runs per game of support and in 4 starts hes 1-1. No to mention the fact that he is barely averageing 6 IP a game. That doesn't sound like a No 2 man to me......

4 starts and you're ready to crucify him, sheeeesh!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look at his career IP and the like. Ritchie has had the lowest Run Support of any Sox starter. In addition, Almost half of that came in his last outing.

IN ADDITION, THE SOX BULLPEN BLEW IT IN THE FIRST outing.



BLA!

voodoochile
04-22-2002, 12:30 PM
The main thing the Sox seem to need is a veteran starter. With the sometimes success that guys like Lee and Rowand have had, they would be an excellent place to start trade talks if it comes down to it.

A package of Lee, Rowand and Wright should bring the Sox something in return. If the offense does falter, they could even throw in Ray and then the ROI should be quite good. I don't have a suggestion for guys who might be available, but the flubbies are looking for 2b and LF and are far from being contenders. Maybe they would trade us Leiber (provided his arm is okay)...

Soxboyrob
04-22-2002, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Have you not watched Carlos at all this year?

In addition, can you tell me Rowand will ever hit 30 HR's or 100 RBI's?

I've probably seen every Carlos Lee At bat this season and he's been deplorable. That's not just my opinion...stats back me up.
BA is .234
OBP is .275
SLG is .406
OBP is .682
He has 4 walks this season. Heck, even Royce has better power numbers than CLee right now. I don't expect for Carlos to continue to play this poorly, but he's looked pretty bad in my book.

As for Aaron, I can't say he'll ever be a 30/100 guy but I also am fairly sure that CLee won't ever have an OBP over .350 and I think Rowand could consistently do that. I understand your hesitation to just dump Lee. It scares me too. I fear he'll immediatly become the next Sosa and make the Sox look foolish for trading him. I just tend to think Rowand is a player that brings more of an overall game (like a Valentin) than CLee does.

Paulwny
04-22-2002, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp


You quoted me, but I said put Joe in RF and Rowand in CF. I also said earlier to put Hummel at SS and Harris at 2B. Leaving you with this lineup:

2B Harris
SS Hummel
DH Thomas
LF Ordonez
1B Konerko
RF Borchard
3B Crede
CF Rowand
C Johnson

With 4 rookies in the line-up you'd make history if you made it to the play-offs, never happen.

MattSharp
04-22-2002, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Matt - if the offense falters this year, I'll eat my keyboard. If the Sox don't make the second round, it will be due to pitching, not hitting or defense.

Yea I agree the offense is good, but offense can only get you so far. And I would rather see them shell out toe dough on someone who can boost their pitching staff.

4 starts and you're ready to crucify him, sheeeesh!!!!!!!!!!!!

After 7 Ks in his first outing, he only has had 9 in his last three. Yea he has pitched 7 innings each in his last two outings, but whatever. I still don't think this guy is a No. 2 starter.....

Soxboyrob
04-22-2002, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp


After 7 Ks in his first outing, he only has had 9 in his last three. Yea he has pitched 7 innings each in his last two outings, but whatever. I still don't think this guy is a No. 2 starter.....

You almost have to put things in a different context w/ our hitting. Ritchie is a #3 or #4 starter for most teams. For us, he's a legitimate #2. He's going to keep us in almost every game and probably win a bunch. With our hitting, I won't be surprised to see Ritchie end up w/ 16-18 wins. That's #2 quality by my estimation. I'm kinda sad we didn't just re-sign JBaldwin for another $2 million a year. He'd win 15 games w/ this team, easily. And we wouldn't have had to give up a Fogg, Lowe and Wells to have gotten him.

Randar68
04-22-2002, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
Ritchie is a #3 or #4 starter for most teams.

Please, most teams? Maybe NY and Oakland, that's about it. Most teams?

ode to veeck
04-22-2002, 01:27 PM
If the Sox fall out of contention they should.....

... tar and feather the person who started this thread in WSI Clubhouse and also the one who said they'd call Vegas and bet against the Sox in the first game of the key matchup this week in Cleveland!!!


twang .... THUMP! :D:

Tragg
04-22-2002, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp


If you think about it, what they need is someone in between Ritchie and Buehrle who can eat up innings and win 12-16 games.....

I basically agree with you.

However, we don't need someone between Buehrle and Ritchie if we are talking about a World Series. We need another Buehrle - preferably someone with Buehrle's outcomes from the right side who throws 94 consistently.

doctor30th
04-22-2002, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp
Not don't get me wrong, I don't think they will. I mean I am already setting aside my WS money, but let's say they crumble.

Trading Ray is a must. With the season he is having someone will certainly pick him up. With Hummel AND Harris waiting behind him theres no reason not to.

Trade Carlos Lee. I think this guy isn't gonna get much better and you look at what they got for Singleton, I think they could do at least that good with Lee. With Borchard waiting in the wings, you gotta clear up some space. You could move Mags to LF, Borchard to RF, and then either have Harris or Rowand in CF. My vote goes for Rowand cause I would like to see Harris at 2B and Hummel at SS. Then bring Crede and put him at 3B.

If the Sox traded Jose, CLee, The Choice, Durham, and Sandy Alomar they could come up with somethin they need. I don't know what. But I think that could have some potential.

How come if this happens I get the distinct feeling you'd be back here complaining about Kenny Williams and White Flag trade part II.

doublem23
04-22-2002, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
How come if this happens I get the distinct feeling you'd be back here complaining about Kenny Williams and White Flag trade part II.

If (knock on wood) the Sox fall out of contention, we'll be complaining about a lot more.

Bmr31
04-23-2002, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Have you not watched Carlos at all this year?

In addition, can you tell me Rowand will ever hit 30 HR's or 100 RBI's?

yeah i have mixed feelings on carlos. While i think carlos is solid......our team has too many carlos/konerko/frank types. What would be ideal is to replace carlos in the lineup with an OF guy who can play defense, and who bats left handed.

voodoochile
04-23-2002, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


yeah i have mixed feelings on carlos. While i think carlos is solid......our team has too many carlos/konerko/frank types. What would be ideal is to replace carlos in the lineup with an OF guy who can play defense, and who bats left handed.

Well, Leifer isn't spectaular defensively, but he is lefty. We're only talking this year anyway until JoeB can come up.

Bmr31
04-23-2002, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Well, Leifer isn't spectaular defensively, but he is lefty. We're only talking this year anyway until JoeB can come up.

Good points, so, if we fall out of contention, trading carlos may be wise....