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View Full Version : Is Nick Swisher really a good fit?


shoelessshaun27!
02-02-2008, 12:05 PM
On January 3rd, the Chicago White Sox acquired Nick Swisher via trade with the Oakland Athletics. On that same date they also balled up their future and threw it out the window. Kenny Williams traded the two best pitchers in his farm system, and the best outfielder for the A’s average mediocre center fielder. Gio Gonzolez, Ryan Sweeny, and Fautino De Los Santos were the sox 2, 3, and 4 best prospects respectively. Nick Swisher is the 34th best outfielder in Major League Baseball! He is neither fast, (one stolen base in five career attempts), nor flashy and has the 128th best Batting Average of all outfielders in the MLB last season. Oh, but he has a great OBP! Ok, he has the 31st best of all outfielders last year but that doesn’t make up for his lack of speed, poor batting average, (career .251 hitter), and a low RBI production. But not to worry everyone, Kenny Williams claims that "He's the perfect complement to what we believe is needed to give us another push toward a championship”. Say what you want Kenny Williams, but you gave up way to much talent for an average player. Eventually Sox fans are going to have to face the facts and see that Williams is not the right fit for this team, but until that day comes, middle of the road teams will continue to take the field for the South Siders.

MCHSoxFan
02-02-2008, 12:11 PM
On January 3rd, the Chicago White Sox acquired Nick Swisher via trade with the Oakland Athletics. On that same date they also balled up their future and threw it out the window. Kenny Williams traded the two best pitchers in his farm system, and the best outfielder for the A’s average mediocre center fielder. Gio Gonzolez, Ryan Sweeny, and Fautino De Los Santos were the sox 2, 3, and 4 best prospects respectively. Nick Swisher is the 34th best outfielder in Major League Baseball! He is neither fast, (one stolen base in five career attempts), nor flashy and has the 128th best Batting Average of all outfielders in the MLB last season. Oh, but he has a great OBP! Ok, he has the 31st best of all outfielders last year but that doesn’t make up for his lack of speed, poor batting average, (career .251 hitter), and a low RBI production. But not to worry everyone, Kenny Williams claims that "He's the perfect complement to what we believe is needed to give us another push toward a championship”. Say what you want Kenny Williams, but you gave up way to much talent for an average player. Eventually Sox fans are going to have to face the facts and see that Williams is not the right fit for this team, but until that day comes, middle of the road teams will continue to take the field for the South Siders.

Okay. If you hate KW & the White Sox so much, then get off this board, do not buy tickets, and stay away from 333 West 35th street. I mean, I hate the Cubs and I do not participate in anything they do. I have not gone to Wrigley, their fan fest, on their message boards, etc. Makes sense?!?!

shoelessshaun27!
02-02-2008, 12:14 PM
I am a sox fan ,by the way, but I will not sit here as a fan and say that everything is good and well with this team. Because its not. I would like to see the Sox actualy make the play-offs this season, not be a sub .500 team. Call me crazy but thats I as a fan would like out of this team.

JB98
02-02-2008, 12:17 PM
Personally, I like it when prospects get traded for proven talent. I was delighted when the Swisher deal was made, and the naysayers haven't deterred my optimism about the trade one bit.

Nick will hit .280 this year. That park in Oakland takes 25 to 30 points off batting averages with all that foul ground.

CLUBHOUSE KID
02-02-2008, 12:19 PM
I am a sox fan ,by the way, but I will not sit here as a fan and say that everything is good and well with this team. Because its not. I would like to see the Sox actualy make the play-offs this season, not be a sub .500 team. Call me crazy but thats I as a fan would like out of this team.

I agree. But, I mean, you bash everything. I do not love everything because I am a White Sox fan. However, in the past 2-3 days, all you have been doing is saying how bad everything is. As I said, you may not like everything, but can we wait a little bit into the season before we see a ton of posts by the SAME person on just about EVERY move KW made/did not make this off-season. That is what I am saying. Have a little faith and just wait.

chaerulez
02-02-2008, 12:21 PM
You obviously don't know much about baseball.

So he doesn't steal bases. Big deal, we have a couple guys (Owens, Richar) that are capable of doing so when it's needed. If stealing bases was such so valued around baseball, why is Pods only getting a minor league deal from the Rockies? Stealing bases is a bonus in a baseball player, if that is their best talent, then that player isn't a good baseball player.

OBP is more important than batting average. The goal of a hitter should be not to get an out. Get on base anyway possible, while trying to to score runs. RBI production doesn't define how clutch you are. Most of it is dependent on how good the hitters in front of you are. Which is why the Cubs are silly for batting Soriano lead off, he had 70 RBIs with his 33 HRs. Without knowing the exact stats, I'm willing to bet he hit with the bases empty more than say Lee or Ramirez, who both had more RBIs despite hitting less home runs. By leading off Soriano hit with the bases empty at least once per game. Hitting behind the Cubs' weakest hitter and the pitcher spot, he probably hit with the bases empty more than once a game quite often.

Swisher had his best year in 2006 when the A's had Frank Thomas. I don't know if Swisher hit before or after Thomas. Either way he benefited greatly. He was protected by Thomas if Thomas hit after him, or due to Thomas' .381 OBP, he had a lot of RBI chances. Keep in mind Swisher played in a pitchers park. At the Cell and aided by being in a lineup filled with power hitters, I think Swisher will easily get 30 HRs this season.

MCHSoxFan
02-02-2008, 12:22 PM
I agree. But, I mean, you bash everything. I do not love everything because I am a White Sox fan. However, in the past 2-3 days, all you have been doing is saying how bad everything is. As I said, you may not like everything, but can we wait a little bit into the season before we see a ton of posts by the SAME person on just about EVERY move KW made/did not make this off-season. That is what I am saying. Have a little faith and just wait.

Thank you Alex. I am glad you said that instead of me. Alex, you dislike a lot of what this team has done and do not think too highly about this season. However, you said you will wait and see. Also, you have not made constant threads knocking the Sox, KW, Ozzie, ETC.

The Thomenator
02-02-2008, 12:23 PM
I am a sox fan ,by the way, but I will not sit here as a fan and say that everything is good and well with this team. Because its not. I would like to see the Sox actualy make the play-offs this season, not be a sub .500 team. Call me crazy but thats I as a fan would like out of this team.

You are crazy.

Cuck the Fubs
02-02-2008, 12:23 PM
Dude stay away from sharp objects and stay off ledges...........

What's with all the ranting and raving..............

Let them play the season before you bury them...what do ya say

shoelessshaun27!
02-02-2008, 12:24 PM
I don't think I bashed Ozzie in any of my articles

Lets get our facts straight there bud

munchman33
02-02-2008, 12:26 PM
Well, Swisher is young and cheap. And you're understating his talents. He also brings power and flexibility.

However, I think most people would agree that we vastly overpaid for him, yes. Oakland got a better return for Swisher than the Twins got on the best player in baseball.

MCHSoxFan
02-02-2008, 12:28 PM
You are crazy.

Thank you. There is a differnce between questioning the team and what he is doing. I mean, come-on. Wait a litle before all you do is post: O-Cab sucks, Swisher sucks, KW sucks, damn, ALL OF THE WHITE SOX SUCK!!! Even in a good season, like 2005, I had some complaints. However, I wait to see how they play out before running my mouth. Sure, the White Sox can get a bad player that everone knows that player just plain sucks. However, Swisher does not suck and will only IMPROVE here on the South Side.

JUST WAIT!!!!!!

MCHSoxFan
02-02-2008, 12:29 PM
I don't think I bashed Ozzie in any of my articles

Lets get our facts straight there bud

Do NOT pick on little things just to make another poster look stupid. You are not fooling nobody here. Your game is negativity.

shoelessshaun27!
02-02-2008, 12:31 PM
then don't pick on little things like spelling

have a good day champ

Sockinchisox
02-02-2008, 12:32 PM
Swisher had his best year in 2006 when the A's had Frank Thomas. I don't know if Swisher hit before or after Thomas. Either way he benefited greatly. He was protected by Thomas if Thomas hit after him, or due to Thomas' .381 OBP, he had a lot of RBI chances. Keep in mind Swisher played in a pitchers park. At the Cell and aided by being in a lineup filled with power hitters, I think Swisher will easily get 30 HRs this season.

He hit before and after Thomas, he hit in the 2 hole the most (289 ABs) and the 7 hole the 2nd most (159 ABs).

goon
02-02-2008, 12:34 PM
Oh, but he has a great OBP! Ok, he has the 31st best of all outfielders last year but that doesn’t make up for his lack of speed, poor batting average, (career .251 hitter), and a low RBI production.

I know you weren't foolish enough to post this without looking at Swisher's road splits from the last two seasons... RIGHT? You are making a mockery of White Sox fans by posting this trash. Nick Swisher fits into ANY TEAM IN MLB, period. He's a smart hitter who hits for power, he gets onbase (power and getting onbase are the most important things a hitter can do), he can play multiple positions, has a good attitude and a positive effect in the clubhouse.

Oh, I'm sorry, he won't steal 20 bases a season... this is a joke right? Did we not just pick up a SS with Orlando Cabrera who can steal bases? Danny Richar, Jerry Owens, even Josh Fields can run a bit.

voodoochile
02-02-2008, 12:36 PM
Well, Swisher is young and cheap. And you're understating his talents. He also brings power and flexibility.

However, I think most people would agree that we vastly overpaid for him, yes. Oakland got a better return for Swisher than the Twins got on the best player in baseball.

That's because Swisher's entire 5 year contract costs about as much as one year of Santana's new one...:rolleyes:

pmck003
02-02-2008, 12:36 PM
I'm becoming strongly anti-prospect because of the certainty by some that the Sox traded away the 2014 all-star team.

goon
02-02-2008, 12:38 PM
However, I think most people would agree that we vastly overpaid for him, yes. Oakland got a better return for Swisher than the Twins got on the best player in baseball.

Very true, however, they were different situations. Everything I've read and heard says that Swisher wasn't on the market, teams bidding for Santana knew that the Twinkies couldn't re-sign him. They lost some trade leverage because of that. Also, consider the fact that the Mets just had to sign him to a 6-year $150 million contract, while Swisher (though he isn't the best pitcher in baseball) is signed for, I believe, the next 4 years at a very affordable rate.

TomBradley72
02-02-2008, 12:38 PM
He's an excellent fit as a starting LF (assuming Dye is in RF), and as an occassional platoon with Konerko or Thome. He's not a good fit as a starting/every day CF...if he's out there every day...his defense will be exposed...most likely the worst defensive starting CF in the AL (if there's someone I'm missing, let me know).

shoelessshaun27!
02-02-2008, 12:39 PM
I know you weren't foolish enough to post this without looking at Swisher's road splits from the last two seasons... RIGHT? You are making a mockery of White Sox fans by posting this trash. Nick Swisher fits into ANY TEAM IN MLB, period. He's a smart hitter who hits for power, he gets onbase (power and getting onbase are the most important things a hitter can do), he can play multiple positions, has a good attitude and a positive effect in the clubhouse.

Oh, I'm sorry, he won't steal 20 bases a season... this is a joke right? Did we not just pick up a SS with Orlando Cabrera who can steal bases? Danny Richar, Jerry Owens, even Josh Fields can run a bit.




I'm sorry, but don't the Sox play ozzie ball? Where players RUN and STEAL BASES- Swisher can't do that

goon
02-02-2008, 12:40 PM
I'm sorry, but don't the Sox play ozzie ball? Where players RUN and STEAL BASES- Swisher can't do that


:lol::lol:

voodoochile
02-02-2008, 12:42 PM
I'm sorry, but don't the Sox play ozzie ball? Where players RUN and STEAL BASES- Swisher can't do that

Well, yeah, but I don't see you screaming for Konerko to get traded and didn't your last rant bemoan the loss of MaggliOWMYKNEE and Carlos Lee?

Swisher may not be Jerry Owens, but he's fast enough to play CF, so he's got some speed...

Really, Shaun, you're embarrassing yourself. Learn a bit about baseball and then come back...

IceczMan
02-02-2008, 12:46 PM
I'm just glad that this post was short enough to actually get through. :D:

That said, You're crazy.

Carp
02-02-2008, 12:47 PM
I'm sorry, but don't the Sox play ozzie ball? Where players RUN and STEAL BASES- Swisher can't do that

Cause Thome, PK AJ, and Dye are real speedsters themselves. Ozzieball is more a pr term than a description of how the White Sox play. Because of the dimensions of The Cell the Sox offense is based on POWER, not speed. Fast guys at the top of the order are nice, but its not the end-all be-all.

LITTLE NELL
02-02-2008, 01:15 PM
Hey Shoeless, you should change your screen name to Clueless. Your profile states that you are all of 16 years old, 99% of the members of WSI have forgotten more about baseball than you will ever know. Make an appointment with your MD, you must be getting a bad reaction from your acne medication.

munchman33
02-02-2008, 01:17 PM
That's because Swisher's entire 5 year contract costs about as much as one year of Santana's new one...:rolleyes:

Yeah, but we're also talking about the best pitcher in baseball, a guy who's a lock for 230 innings and the best ERA in the league. Nick Swisher isn't even an all-star caliber player. He's a good MLB player, but certainly not great.

munchman33
02-02-2008, 01:22 PM
Very true, however, they were different situations. Everything I've read and heard says that Swisher wasn't on the market, teams bidding for Santana knew that the Twinkies couldn't re-sign him. They lost some trade leverage because of that. Also, consider the fact that the Mets just had to sign him to a 6-year $150 million contract, while Swisher (though he isn't the best pitcher in baseball) is signed for, I believe, the next 4 years at a very affordable rate.

That Kenny is "buying high" is not a means to defend a bad trade. Why not buy high on a superstar instead? That makes a lot more sense. There were plenty of CF's available via free agency and trade. No one forced Kenny to spend the farm on an average player who wasn't available when plenty of other, more sensible options were available. He made that mistake himself.

skobabe8
02-02-2008, 01:37 PM
Go away shaun. :dtroll:

hi im skot
02-02-2008, 01:39 PM
This is getting old.

xKG07305CBs

goon
02-02-2008, 01:45 PM
That Kenny is "buying high" is not a means to defend a bad trade. Why not buy high on a superstar instead? That makes a lot more sense. There were plenty of CF's available via free agency and trade. No one forced Kenny to spend the farm on an average player who wasn't available when plenty of other, more sensible options were available. He made that mistake himself.

Who, Torii Hunter? That's one. Andruw Jones? Ehh, I'd rather have Kenny make the trade for Swisher. Also, keep in mind while Swisher playing CF has been discussed, it isn't necessarily set in stone.

Also, though the Sox went after Hunter, it was fairly clear that what this team need offensively was someone who gets onbase at a good clip, not just a "superstar". I never understand that logic. Get a player because he has put up great numbers in the past, because he is a household name. How about evaluating how a player will impact your team now and in the future? I'd rather have Nick Swisher over Andruw Jones or Aaron Rowand if that's the case. He's young, proven, about to hit the prime years of his career... to me that makes way more sense than any of the other options via FA. Rowand has only played over 150 games twice in his career. Jones is coming off a hideous '07 and by many scouts and analysts opinions, is declining in all facets of the game. KW swung and missed on Hunter, but really Hunter chose the Angels over the Sox, it would have taken an outrageous contract to get him signed. If Swisher stays healthy, he is going to surprise a lot of people, especially in this lineup.

And for the record, you think the Swisher deal was a bad trade, not me. You tried to comparing the Santana deal to the Swisher deal and they are different situations. The Twins only got the players they did because they couldn't re-sign Santana. Other teams knew this and exploited it.

fquaye149
02-02-2008, 02:12 PM
On January 3rd, the Chicago White Sox acquired Nick Swisher via trade with the Oakland Athletics. On that same date they also balled up their future and threw it out the window. Kenny Williams traded the two best pitchers in his farm system, and the best outfielder for the A’s average mediocre center fielder. Gio Gonzolez, Ryan Sweeny, and Fautino De Los Santos were the sox 2, 3, and 4 best prospects respectively. Nick Swisher is the 34th best outfielder in Major League Baseball! He is neither fast, (one stolen base in five career attempts), nor flashy and has the 128th best Batting Average of all outfielders in the MLB last season. Oh, but he has a great OBP! Ok, he has the 31st best of all outfielders last year but that doesn’t make up for his lack of speed, poor batting average, (career .251 hitter), and a low RBI production. But not to worry everyone, Kenny Williams claims that "He's the perfect complement to what we believe is needed to give us another push toward a championship”. Say what you want Kenny Williams, but you gave up way to much talent for an average player. Eventually Sox fans are going to have to face the facts and see that Williams is not the right fit for this team, but until that day comes, middle of the road teams will continue to take the field for the South Siders.

:rolling:

fquaye149
02-02-2008, 02:12 PM
I am a sox fan ,by the way, but I will not sit here as a fan and say that everything is good and well with this team. Because its not. I would like to see the Sox actualy make the play-offs this season, not be a sub .500 team. Call me crazy but thats I as a fan would like out of this team.

Hi Hangar!!!!

DumpJerry
02-02-2008, 02:14 PM
shaun and Munchman:

Read my sig twice and call in the morning. You should feel better by then.

fquaye149
02-02-2008, 02:14 PM
Do NOT pick on little things just to make another poster look stupid. You are not fooling nobody here. Your game is negativity.

Oh come on now. Stop picking on little things like shoelessshaun

fquaye149
02-02-2008, 02:15 PM
That Kenny is "buying high" is not a means to defend a bad trade. Why not buy high on a superstar instead? That makes a lot more sense. There were plenty of CF's available via free agency and trade. No one forced Kenny to spend the farm on an average player who wasn't available when plenty of other, more sensible options were available. He made that mistake himself.

:rolleyes:

What superstar was Kenny in trade talks for? Or are you just pulling the idea that we could have gotten one for the tablescraps in our farm system straight out of your ass?

And to say a kid in his mid-20's with .380 OBP and 30 HR production is "average" is pretty ridiculous.

Craig Grebeck
02-02-2008, 02:23 PM
Swisher has a career OPS+ of 118. Yeah, he's average. 125 and 127 the last two seasons.

:rolleyes:

jabrch
02-02-2008, 02:28 PM
:dtroll::dtroll::dtroll::dtroll::dtroll::dtroll:

shoelessshaun27!
02-02-2008, 02:57 PM
That Kenny is "buying high" is not a means to defend a bad trade. Why not buy high on a superstar instead? That makes a lot more sense. There were plenty of CF's available via free agency and trade. No one forced Kenny to spend the farm on an average player who wasn't available when plenty of other, more sensible options were available. He made that mistake himself.


I could not agree with you more

oeo
02-02-2008, 03:09 PM
That Kenny is "buying high" is not a means to defend a bad trade. Why not buy high on a superstar instead? That makes a lot more sense. There were plenty of CF's available via free agency and trade. No one forced Kenny to spend the farm on an average player who wasn't available when plenty of other, more sensible options were available. He made that mistake himself.

First of all, what centerfielders were out there for trade? :?:

Maybe I'm forgetting someone, but I don't think a single centerfielder was traded this offseason (unless you count Swisher).

And you're right, there were FA options out there. Kenny went as high as he thought they were worth. I don't disagree in any of those cases.

Sockinchisox
02-02-2008, 03:13 PM
First of all, what centerfielders were out there for trade? :?:

Maybe I'm forgetting someone, but I don't think a single centerfielder was traded this offseason (unless you count Swisher).

And you're right, there were FA options out there. Kenny went as high as he thought they were worth. I don't disagree in any of those cases.

Kotsay and Bourne.

Edit: Edmonds was traded also.

Edit x 2: Josh Hamilton as well and thats all.

chisox77
02-02-2008, 03:20 PM
Swisher rules!

soxfanreggie
02-02-2008, 03:22 PM
I will like this trade a lot more if (assuming Owens doesn't have a breakout year) later this year if we trade for a CF or sign one next year. I think Swisher is a good fit at LF/1B/RF. However, I don't really see him as a good fit for CF. He's workable right now, but I don't see him as the best long-term option. I like Nick Swisher as a player, and I'm glad he's on the White Sox; however, it would be great to switch him over to LF/RF/1B, maybe even with some DH time, instead of CF. IMO, he's a short-term solution for that position.

That being said, with my proposal to move him to LF, that doesn't leave much room for Quentin. If I had to put together this team, I don't think I would have went for Dye, Quentin, and Swisher altogether in long-term planning.

With how White Sox prospects have panned out the last 5-6 years, I am not as worried about what we gave up; however, when I looked at the pitchers we traded now vs those we were bringing up, they seemed more talented.

hi im skot
02-02-2008, 03:28 PM
Nick Swisher is the walrus.

fquaye149
02-02-2008, 03:28 PM
Kotsay and Bourne.

Edit: Edmonds was traded also.

Edit x 2: Josh Hamilton as well and thats all.

lol

Lip Man 1
02-02-2008, 03:52 PM
I have never had any issues trading supposed 'can't miss' prospects the vast majority of whom don't pan out, nor come close to making an impact in the show, for a guy who actually has produced at the highest level in the game.

Plus I like Swisher's attitude and the fact that he plays the game the way it's supposed to be played. He is an asset to the club.

Whether any of the 'can't miss kids' the Sox traded to get him turns out to be assets to the A's is still in question isn't it?

They might be three future Hall of Famer's or they may turn out to be major league busts like Billy Beane was.

The odds are tremendously in the favor of the second possibility.

Lip

Nellie_Fox
02-02-2008, 04:04 PM
I don't think I bashed Ozzie in any of my articlesTo call your inane, semi-literate ramblings "articles" is a stretch of major proportions.

munchman33
02-02-2008, 04:11 PM
Who, Torii Hunter? That's one. Andruw Jones? Ehh, I'd rather have Kenny make the trade for Swisher. Also, keep in mind while Swisher playing CF has been discussed, it isn't necessarily set in stone.

Also, though the Sox went after Hunter, it was fairly clear that what this team need offensively was someone who gets onbase at a good clip, not just a "superstar". I never understand that logic. Get a player because he has put up great numbers in the past, because he is a household name. How about evaluating how a player will impact your team now and in the future? I'd rather have Nick Swisher over Andruw Jones or Aaron Rowand if that's the case. He's young, proven, about to hit the prime years of his career... to me that makes way more sense than any of the other options via FA. Rowand has only played over 150 games twice in his career. Jones is coming off a hideous '07 and by many scouts and analysts opinions, is declining in all facets of the game. KW swung and missed on Hunter, but really Hunter chose the Angels over the Sox, it would have taken an outrageous contract to get him signed. If Swisher stays healthy, he is going to surprise a lot of people, especially in this lineup.

And for the record, you think the Swisher deal was a bad trade, not me. You tried to comparing the Santana deal to the Swisher deal and they are different situations. The Twins only got the players they did because they couldn't re-sign Santana. Other teams knew this and exploited it.

I like Swisher on this team more than some of those other names too. But say Kenny signed a free agent CF. Then spin prospects for another hole. Don't you think Gio and Sweeney could pry Brian Roberts from Baltimore? I sure do.

It's funny that everyone thinks the Twins got "exploited." The way I see it, Kenny Williams got exploited in the Swisher trade. He acted out of desperation, and he didn't even need to.

...
02-02-2008, 04:14 PM
I like Swisher on this team more than some of those other names too. But say Kenny signed a free agent CF. Then spin prospects for another hole. Don't you think Gio and Sweeney could pry Brian Roberts from Baltimore? I sure do.

It's funny that everyone thinks the Twins got "exploited." The way I see it, Kenny Williams got exploited in the Swisher trade. He acted out of desperation, and he didn't even need to.

1) I highly doubt Kenny "acted out of desperation." Good try though.

2) Why the **** do we need Brian needle in my ass' Roberts?

3) Go ****ing piss and moan elsewhere...

munchman33
02-02-2008, 04:17 PM
1) I highly doubt Kenny "acted out of desperation." Good try though.

2) Why the **** do we need Brian needle in my ass' Roberts?

3) Go ****ing piss and moan elsewhere...

1. He paid higher than what Swisher was worth. It was either desperation or stupidity. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

2. Probably because we want to win? I don't know.

3. :happybday

kittle42
02-02-2008, 04:21 PM
then don't pick on little things like spelling

have a good day champ

Your spelling sucks. Your baseball "analysis" is worse. Your style of debate is atrocious. Your teachers should be fired.

shoelessshaun27!
02-02-2008, 04:55 PM
I like Swisher on this team more than some of those other names too. But say Kenny signed a free agent CF. Then spin prospects for another hole. Don't you think Gio and Sweeney could pry Brian Roberts from Baltimore? I sure do.

It's funny that everyone thinks the Twins got "exploited." The way I see it, Kenny Williams got exploited in the Swisher trade. He acted out of desperation, and he didn't even need to.


a very well based opinion- I like it a lot and agree completely

thank you for bringing up a legitament point unlike everyone else on here

shoelessshaun27!
02-02-2008, 04:57 PM
If you people are going to seriously use bad language on this sight

and bash my spelling and say that I'm a kid, son, boy etc.

you seroiusly have no lives

Cuck the Fubs
02-02-2008, 04:58 PM
a very well based opinion- I like it a lot and agree completely

thank you for bringing up a legitament point unlike everyone else on here


So they are only legitimate points if they agree with you..........:rolleyes:

I will ask only this...........if you're all knowing accessments are incorrect, will you retrun and eat your crow?

shoelessshaun27!
02-02-2008, 04:59 PM
why would I need to

I know I'm right

Cuck the Fubs
02-02-2008, 05:04 PM
:therapy:

SOXSINCE'70
02-02-2008, 05:24 PM
Nick Swisher is the walrus.

No,according to John Lennon's "Glass Onion".
"the walrus was Paul"(McCartney,of course). :D::D:

Daver
02-02-2008, 05:41 PM
I think the real question is does this team fit Nick Swisher?

kittle42
02-02-2008, 05:43 PM
If you people are going to seriously use bad language on this sight

and bash my spelling and say that I'm a kid, son, boy etc.

you seroiusly have no lives

Those are definite indicators of people with no lives. You have yet to really respond to one criticism of your points in any of your threads, by the way.

Sockinchisox
02-02-2008, 05:46 PM
He's just a troll trying to get a rise out of people, there's no reason to respond to him.

Bobby Thigpen
02-02-2008, 05:47 PM
shaun and munchman are two of the reasons I post on here about once every year since 2005.

When the hell did so many Sox fans become so delusional?

munchman33
02-02-2008, 06:00 PM
shaun and munchman are two of the reasons I post on here about once every year since 2005.

When the hell did so many Sox fans become so delusional?

Delusional? Heh.

Sorry, I don't subscribe to the ra-ra kool-aid that you do. I can think for myself and make arguments. And when people ask me what and why, I can elaborate.

For the record, if I'm actually going to go out and call someone delusional like you just did, I'm sure as hell gonna at the very least back it up. Maybe you're scared to post more than once a year because you're afraid that the more you talk the more people will figure out how full of **** you are.

Sockinchisox
02-02-2008, 06:25 PM
Delusional? Heh.

Sorry, I don't subscribe to the ra-ra kool-aid that you do. I can think for myself and make arguments. And when people ask me what and why, I can elaborate.

For the record, if I'm actually going to go out and call someone delusional like you just did, I'm sure as hell gonna at the very least back it up. Maybe you're scared to post more than once a year because you're afraid that the more you talk the more people will figure out how full of **** you are.

He was agreeing with you and shaun.

shoelessshaun27!
02-02-2008, 06:27 PM
i got your back munchman and thigpen

fans like us need to stick together to fight off the inept ones

munchman33
02-02-2008, 06:36 PM
He was agreeing with you and shaun.


:redface:

I misunderstood. Thigpen my sincerest apologies.

Though I don't think the bulk of posters are delusional. Most people here acknowledge we overpaid for Swisher. We just have varying degrees of how much we overpaid and people disagreeing on whether it was the right course of action.

munchman33
02-02-2008, 06:37 PM
i got your back munchman and thigpen

fans like us need to stick together to fight off the inept ones

I don't think anyone here qualifies as "inept."

Sockinchisox
02-02-2008, 06:38 PM
:redface:

I misunderstood. Thigpen my sincerest apologies.

Though I don't think the bulk of posters are delusional. Most people here acknowledge we overpaid for Swisher. We just have varying degrees of how much we overpaid and people disagreeing on whether it was the right course of action.

Kenny acknowledged he overpaid for Swisher at SoxFest.

kittle42
02-02-2008, 06:44 PM
i got your back munchman and thigpen

fans like us need to stick together to fight off the inept ones

I have never liked the "dark cloud" label and all that crap around here, but I really do think there are some people who, consciously or unconsciously, want the Sox to fail so they can say "I told you so."

munchman33
02-02-2008, 06:54 PM
I have never liked the "dark cloud" label and all that crap around here, but I really do think there are some people who, consciously or unconsciously, want the Sox to fail so they can say "I told you so."

I want to be wrong.

I think if we'd replace on of our bottom three starters (preferably not Danks) with Eric Bedard, we'd be in pretty good shape going into the season. As of now, I do not think we have a good chance at competing. Looking at our rotation, that isn't an unreasonable argument.

...
02-02-2008, 07:02 PM
1. He paid higher than what Swisher was worth. It was either desperation or stupidity. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

2. Probably because we want to win? I don't know.

3. :happybday

When a player is "not available", you will end up paying more to acquire said player. It's not rocket surgery.

Brian Roberts is not going to do any more to help this team win than Owens + Swisher. Swisher is a much younger and entering his prime as compared to Roberts, who will most likely be on the decline (unless they legalize HGH). On top of all that, Swisher is locked up DIRT cheap for the next 5 years.

kittle42
02-02-2008, 07:09 PM
I want to be wrong.

I think if we'd replace on of our bottom three starters (preferably not Danks) with Eric Bedard, we'd be in pretty good shape going into the season. As of now, I do not think we have a good chance at competing. Looking at our rotation, that isn't an unreasonable argument.

Agreed. Not unreasonable at all.

rowand33
02-02-2008, 07:11 PM
Q: Is Nick Swisher really a good fit?

A: Yes. Guys that can play all 3 outfield positions, have 30 homer pop, and great OBP are a good fit for every team in baseball.

/thread

jabrch
02-02-2008, 07:13 PM
The fact that some people are comparing the price paid for Swisher, locked down for 5 years at a very very reasonable price to getting Santana and having to pay him 20+mm for 6+ years is amazing to me.

You have to give up very good prospects (by the way, it is funny to hear people who were telling us how bad the farm system was before this deal now talk about the great prospects we gave up) to get a guy signed for such a long term, inexpensive contract. We didn't overpay. We paid a high price for a very valuable contract. There is a significant difference.

FedEx227
02-02-2008, 07:16 PM
Q: Is Nick Swisher really a good fit?

A: Yes. Guys that can play all 3 outfield positions, have 30 homer pop, and great OBP are a good fit for every team in baseball.

/thread

Q: Is Nick Swisher really a good fit?

A: Absolutely, he has good pop that will definitely improve once he gets into The Cell, has great plate patience. Averages 80-100 walks a season something the White Sox sorely need.

Shaun, I'm sorry, but you're a moron. If one of the negatives you have with Nick Swisher is a low batting average then you're completely naive to what Swisher does best. The man walks nearly 100 times per season, thus a .262 or .251 batting average doesn't mean all that much because he .381 OBP with very few IBB.

The man gets on base, takes plenty of pitches and can play multiple positions. Mediocre... give me a break, a couple of posts ago you said trading Rowand was a huge mistake... yet you call Nick Swisher mediocre.

Join the rest of us in reality whenever you feel like it.

Now I love prospects, I think that's how you truly can build a VERY good team. However this trade is great because Swisher is still young and locked up for awhile, so what we overpaid we got a hell of a player that is still young. Say we make this trade for Andruw Jones I'd probably shoot myself, but Swisher VERY good deal on Kenny's part.

Also, can you guys please ban this guy, it's obvious he's just trying to stir **** up here and he's doing a good job of it.

Domeshot17
02-02-2008, 07:22 PM
(1) I think when you say you write articles, you are using that term very loosely. I think you should be able to spell player names correctly before you try to claim you are anything like a real writer.

(2) You need to learn to control those teenage knee jerk hormones. Gio did not even make Law's top 100 prospect list. He is a double a pitcher who lacks good control and lives and dies on his curveball, which is how pitchers get hit hard at the big league level. DLS has a chance to be a real stud, but most predict him to be a top flight set up man over a top of the rotation starter. Ryan Sweeney is a future fourth OF. When you lack speed, and power, and don't hit a lot of doubles, you won't see much time. He will be the next Ryan Langerhans.

Swisher is a high energy, good power, high OBP, smart base runner. He is a guy who can hit 2-7 in our lineup and will flourish at USCF. He can play all 3 out field positions, he has a great contract and will be ours for years. I can't believe you ***** and piss and moan about No Aaron Rowand, but when we deal for a player world's better, you ***** and moan more.

Thank God you go back to school monday.

goon
02-02-2008, 07:22 PM
If Nick Swisher can hit 22 HR's and take 100 walks while battling injuries in an enormous park with absolutely no protection in his lineup, just imagine what he will do in a hitting friendly park surrounding by a ton of protection. Do not underestimate this guy's potential. Look at his road splits, see how well he hits at the Cell. I'm pretty sure the Sox can fit him in somewhere. :cool:

I understand the concern about him playing CF, but I'd rather wait and see how that plays out. He could end up in LF with Owens or Quentin or somebody not even on the team right now patrolling CF.

Frontman
02-02-2008, 07:37 PM
Oh my Gawd, we're delusional because we think our team is better now than it was when it ended last season.

Begin eyerolling........now. :rolleyes:

Some folks need to realize that to get a player, you have to give up a player. Like Oakland would of parted with Swisher for Seeney, Andy Gonzalez, and Ryan Buckvich........

batmanZoSo
02-02-2008, 07:44 PM
If Nick Swisher can hit 22 HR's and take 100 walks while battling injuries in an enormous park with absolutely no protection in his lineup, just imagine what he will do in a hitting friendly park surrounding by a ton of protection. Do not underestimate this guy's potential. Look at his road splits, see how well he hits at the Cell. I'm pretty sure the Sox can fit him in somewhere. :cool:

I understand the concern about him playing CF, but I'd rather wait and see how that plays out. He could end up in LF with Owens or Quentin or somebody not even on the team right now patrolling CF.

I've heard a lot of people worry about Swisher's power. You hope he can hit 22 homers? :?:

He'll have 22 homers by August.

Edit...my bad. You were talking about his time with Oakland. But some people aren't convinced that this guy is a legit power hitter, which I gon't get.

munchman33
02-02-2008, 07:48 PM
Oh my Gawd, we're delusional because we think our team is better now than it was when it ended last season.

Begin eyerolling........now. :rolleyes:

Some folks need to realize that to get a player, you have to give up a player. Like Oakland would of parted with Swisher for Seeney, Andy Gonzalez, and Ryan Buckvich........

Oh come off it. Both extremes look foolish. We are improved. But we are not even a "good" team yet. Our rotation is a joke. It starts and ends there. We improved our lineup and pen, but downgraded the rotation (which by the way wasn't even good enough last year).

We wouldn't have gotten Swisher for a smaller package, you're right. Because he wasn't available. But dear lord, how does that justify it? Like Nick Swisher is some sort of end all be all answer to our prayers? Can he pitch, too? He isn't even a good solution to CF, the problem Kenny was trying to address.

munchman33
02-02-2008, 07:50 PM
I've heard a lot of people worry about Swisher's power. You hope he can hit 22 homers? :?:

He'll have 22 homers by August.

Edit...my bad. You were talking about his time with Oakland. But some people aren't convinced that this guy is a legit power hitter, which I gon't get.

Well, I think the misconception comes from those who think he's a lock for 40 or so here. I'd like to see it, but he did only hit 22 last year. And it was because he took a different approach at the plate, trying to reach base more. So I'm not so sure he'll hit many more here than he did there with his current plate approach.

shoelessshaun27!
02-02-2008, 08:02 PM
Oh come off it. Both extremes look foolish. We are improved. But we are not even a "good" team yet. Our rotation is a joke. It starts and ends there. We improved our lineup and pen, but downgraded the rotation (which by the way wasn't even good enough last year).

We wouldn't have gotten Swisher for a smaller package, you're right. Because he wasn't available. But dear lord, how does that justify it? Like Nick Swisher is some sort of end all be all answer to our prayers? Can he pitch, too? He isn't even a good solution to CF, the problem Kenny was trying to address.


very well put


williams clearly overpaid for this guy and he wasn't even "available"

He didn't want to dish out an extra year for arguably two of the best center fielders in baseball in Torri Hunter and Aaron Rowand so instead gives up 3 of his best prospects


You people say prospects don't matter

every player in this league was once a minor leaguer


the twins are contenders every year

you know why?

because they have a good minor league system!

They constantly trade their major league talent for prospects and though they may not be the best team year in and year out- they are contenders because they build a team the right way

batmanZoSo
02-02-2008, 08:02 PM
Well, I think the misconception comes from those who think he's a lock for 40 or so here. I'd like to see it, but he did only hit 22 last year. And it was because he took a different approach at the plate, trying to reach base more. So I'm not so sure he'll hit many more here than he did there with his current plate approach.

He has hit 35 before I believe. On top of that he'll be in a smaller park and have much more protection. Still I'd take the extra on base if that's the approach he wants to take. If he can get on at .390 or .400 then 25 homers is good enough. It's not like we're desperate for power.

Considering he likely hasn't peaked yet, 40 homers is a possibility at some point.

Domeshot17
02-02-2008, 08:10 PM
very well put


williams clearly overpaid for this guy and he wasn't even "available"

He didn't want to dish out an extra year for arguably two of the best center fielders in baseball in Torri Hunter and Aaron Rowand so instead gives up 3 of his best prospects


You people say prospects don't matter

every player in this league was once a minor leaguer


the twins are contenders every year

you know why?

because they have a good minor league system!

They constantly trade their major league talent for prospects and though they may not be the best team year in and year out- they are contenders because they build a team the right way

hahahahahahahaha Rowand....one of the best in baseball?!?!?!?!

It is the constant comments like this that has the crap you post being ripped to shreads. Next tell us how great Ryan Sweeney would be.

FedEx227
02-02-2008, 08:16 PM
hahahahahahahaha Rowand....one of the best in baseball?!?!?!?!

It is the constant comments like this that has the crap you post being ripped to shreads. Next tell us how great Ryan Sweeney would be.

Yeah if Aaron Rowand is considered one of the best centerfielders in baseball I'm grabbing my bat/glove and heading off to the gym right now.

batmanZoSo
02-02-2008, 08:29 PM
Depending on your definition of one of the best, he probably is. He's got a plus glove and he's a good hitter. I can't think of 10 center fielders better than him overall--glove and bat.

Frontman
02-02-2008, 08:34 PM
Yeah if Aaron Rowand is considered one of the best centerfielders in baseball I'm grabbing my bat/glove and heading off to the gym right now.

I'll meet you there. I throw left handed, I'm sure I could land a job as either long relief or maybe even a 5th starter......

munchman/shaun/everyone else who has written off 2008.

Have fun being miserable. Last time I checked, all teams haven't played a single game yet. The Sox have the same chances as anyone else to win.

You're convinced that this team isn't built to win because it doesn't have Rowand or Hunter?!?!?!

Ok, besides Rowand's 2005 team (I think they were named the White Sox) name a team he's played on that he led to a World Series?

How about Hunter? How many rings is he sporting?

You guys bemoan KW moving Garland? Why, did you really enjoy his 2 1/3 innings of work when he'd give up 5/6/7/8 runs?

Jon was going to be gone at the end of 2008, come hell or high water. So Kenny improved the Sox lineup, and weakened the rotation. Ok, I'll give you that, IF THEY (BEING THE ROTATION) PITCH THE SAME AS THEY DID LAST YEAR. Guess what? Last year was then, this is now.

This team has a shot. I'm not entirely convinced that the Tigers are THAT solid. Quite a few of that "all-powerful" lineup are getting long in the tooth, and I'm sorry, their rotation isn't all that young and good either. From their own site:

"Behind Justin Verlander, Detroit returns Kenny Rogers, Nate Robertson and Jeremy Bonderman from injury-plagued seasons to the starting rotation."

So 3 of their 5 are coming off injuries, with one of the three IN HIS MID-FORTIES.

And like Willis is going to be soooooooooo solid against the actual MLB hitters, versus the AAAA hitters of the National League. :rolleyes:

The Twins just moved Santana, the Indians didn't do much to improve their garbage bullpen, and we're supposed to believe that the Sox don't have a chance, just because they didn't sign an aging outfielder or the one who has an annoying habit of hurting himself (and others) by missing his jumps on the ball and having to compensate to make the highlight reel?

Sure, who's drinking what.

Frontman
02-02-2008, 08:35 PM
Depending on your definition of one of the best, he probably is. He's got a plus glove and he's a good hitter. I can't think of 10 center fielders better than him overall--glove and bat.

Depending on your definition, Jose Contreras is young...........

FedEx227
02-02-2008, 08:52 PM
Depending on your definition of one of the best, he probably is. He's got a plus glove and he's a good hitter. I can't think of 10 center fielders better than him overall--glove and bat.

I'm taking this overall glove and bat, so obviously some might be a little worse with the glove and vice versa but:

Grady Sizemore
Ichiro
Torii Hunter
Carlos Beltran
Melky Cabrera
Vernon Wells
Mike Cameron

I believe all-around are better than Rowand, obviously Wells and Cameron had bad offensive years mostly due to injuries and parks. Wells was hurt, Cameron played in SD, he'll hit MUCH better in Milwaukee.

Sizemore is 10x the hitter Rowand could ever dream of, ditto for Ichiro, Hunter all around is better, ditto for Beltra, Melky is underrated but very good offensively and half way decent with the glove.

Frontman
02-02-2008, 08:56 PM
I'm taking this overall glove and bat, so obviously some might be a little worse with the glove and vice versa but:

Grady Sizemore
Ichiro
Torii Hunter
Carlos Beltran
Melky Cabrera
Vernon Wells
Mike Cameron

I believe all-around are better than Rowand, obviously Wells and Cameron had bad offensive years mostly due to injuries and parks. Wells was hurt, Cameron played in SD, he'll hit MUCH better in Milwaukee.

Sizemore is 10x the hitter Rowand could ever dream of, ditto for Ichiro, Hunter all around is better, ditto for Beltra, Melky is underrated but very good offensively and half way decent with the glove.


This post contains logic, which the detractors don't want a part of. Stop that, you might actually get through to them! :D:

batmanZoSo
02-02-2008, 09:05 PM
I'm not a Rowand guy. I just find it ridiculous that the notion of Rowand being one of the best CF's is laughable. I pretty much agree with FedEx for the most part but you could put Rowand in that mix too, rounding out the top 8. I would call that "one of the best" myself.

FedEx227
02-02-2008, 09:12 PM
I'm not a Rowand guy. I just find it ridiculous that the notion of Rowand being one of the best CF's is laughable. I pretty much agree with FedEx for the most part but you could put Rowand in that mix too, rounding out the top 8. I would call that "one of the best" myself.

Yeah no doubt, I see your point he's in that general top half of CFers, the way he put it though makes it seem like its Hunter, Rowand and like 1-2 more guys, at least how I read it and how upset he was about it. That's where I get my beef, I have no doubt that Rowand is top 10 among ALL MLB center fielders, unfortunately you're looking at a pool of 21 that were eligible for postseason awards.

Out of 21 is top 10 "one of the best"? That's all my point is, but no doubt Rowand is one of the better CFers in the league, anyone would love to have a consistent CFer like Rowand my beef just stems from the way he put Rowand in that WAY upper-echelon when there are far better players at his own position not named Torii Hunter.

batmanZoSo
02-02-2008, 09:16 PM
Yeah no doubt, I see your point he's in that general top half of CFers, the way he put it though makes it seem like its Hunter, Rowand and like 1-2 more guys, at least how I read it and how upset he was about it. That's where I get my beef, I have no doubt that Rowand is top 10 among ALL MLB center fielders, unfortunately you're looking at a pool of 21 that were eligible for postseason awards.

Out of 21 is top 10 "one of the best"? That's all my point is, but no doubt Rowand is one of the better CFers in the league, anyone would love to have a consistent CFer like Rowand my beef just stems from the way he put Rowand in that WAY upper-echelon when there are far better players at his own position not named Torii Hunter.

He's in the lower tier of the elite I'd say. Still, I wasn't all that into getting him back here with all things considered. I just think this Rowand issue is ridiculous on WSI, both sides.

FedEx227
02-02-2008, 09:20 PM
He's in the lower tier of the elite I'd say. Still, I wasn't all that into getting him back here with all things considered. I just think this Rowand issue is ridiculous on WSI, both sides.

Agreed. That's why I put in another thread, I really hope we hit a point where the White Sox are in a trade rumor, looking for an OFer and Rowand's name isn't mentioned, because then someone brings up his energy, then 9 people jump on him about it, then 10 people on those people and it's just gotten annoying over all these years.

Cuck the Fubs
02-02-2008, 09:25 PM
Agreed. That's why I put in another thread, I really hope we hit a point where the White Sox are in a trade rumor, looking for an OFer and Rowand's name isn't mentioned, because then someone brings up his energy, then 9 people jump on him about it, then 10 people on those people and it's just gotten annoying over all these years.

I have a strong hunch Mr. Swisher is going to put this whole Rowand man love thing to bed......

doublem23
02-02-2008, 09:34 PM
:threadrules:

Grzegorz
02-02-2008, 09:58 PM
I understand the concern about him playing CF, but I'd rather wait and see how that plays out. He could end up in LF with Owens or Quentin or somebody not even on the team right now patrolling CF.

Why do some have concerns about Swisher in CF and have little to no concern about Quentin in CF?

voodoochile
02-02-2008, 10:05 PM
I don't think anyone here qualifies as "inept."

You're including Shaun in that analysis? :?:

PalehosePlanet
02-02-2008, 10:11 PM
Why do some have concerns about Swisher in CF and have little to no concern about Quentin in CF?

Quentin is our best defensive OF'er. When fully healthy I'd like to see him get a shot in CF.

cards press box
02-02-2008, 10:30 PM
Let me preface this by saying that I am a fan of Bill Veeck and the fun that he brought to the ballpark. He was creative (for example, he got the idea for the explodng scoreboard from the pinwheels on the pinball machine in William Saroyan's Time of Your Life.) I also appreciated Veeck's attitude and willingness to challenge the status quo. But, man, he went nuts trading prospects after the '59 season. As has been discussed elsewhere, Veeck's trades of prospects (Cash, Callison, Battey, Micnher, Romano, et al) for veteran sluggers on the downside did not work. That brings me to Nick Swisher.

Yes, the Sox traded three prospects for Swisher. But Swisher, unlike Roy Sievers or Minnie Minoso (circa 1960), is not coming to the Sox on the downside of his career. To the contrary, Swisher is 27 and coming into his prime. Let's look at stats from Swisher's first three years playing half of his games in the spacious Oakland Coloseum (where, as Bill James says, flyballs go to die):

B.A HR RBI OBP SLG OPS
2005 .236 21 74 .322 .417 101

2006 .254 35 95 .372 .493 125

2007 .262 22 78 .381 .455 127

I know the batting averages are a little low but they improved each year. Putting that aside, look at the other numbers. They are quite good and Swisher is bound to do better playing half of his gams in U.S. Cellular. Oh yeah, and one more thing -- Swisher is switch hitter. I cannot recall too many power hitting switch hitters. Mickey Mantle and Eddie Murray come to mind but that's about it.

I think Swisher will be an anchor for this franchise for years to come. So, is there really a problem with the trade or do some people just go to the default position of moan and criticize whenever any move is made? That's an easy out. If things go wrong, one can always say "I told you so." If things go right, no one remembers the criticism. Come to think of it, isn't that what the Sun-Times resident blogger does?

Nellie_Fox
02-02-2008, 11:32 PM
The fact that some people are comparing the price paid for Swisher, locked down for 5 years at a very very reasonable price to getting Santana and having to pay him 20+mm for 6+ years is amazing to me.

You have to give up very good prospects (by the way, it is funny to hear people who were telling us how bad the farm system was before this deal now talk about the great prospects we gave up) to get a guy signed for such a long term, inexpensive contract. We didn't overpay. We paid a high price for a very valuable contract. There is a significant difference.

This is more of the "fantasy league" syndrome. People only look at the comparative talent involved in a trade. Real general managers have to consider the dollars involved. The Mets had to give up a lot less for Santana because both sides understood it was going to cost the Mets a fortune to keep Santana beyond this year. Swisher's trade value was helped by the fact that he was locked up for a long time at relatively low dollars. Fantasy league GM's don't have to take that into consideration.

There are also intangibles; the Twins apparently assigned a value to not having Santana remain the in the AL, as they took less from the Mets than what was rumored to be offered by the Red Sox. Whether you agree with how much value they assigned is a different argument, but again, it's not a consideration fantasy GM's have to factor in.

He didn't want to dish out an extra year for arguably two of the best center fielders in baseball in Torri Hunter and Aaron Rowand so instead gives up 3 of his best prospectsFirst of all, either you paid no attention during the Torii Hunter saga, or else you simply don't care about facts. KW wasn't given an opportunity to match the extra year for Hunter; he signed the offer from Anaheim without coming back to the Sox. You don't know whether KW would have been willing to "dish out" the extra year because he wasn't given the opportunity. Besides, most experts believe that the Angels vastly overpaid for Hunter.

batmanZoSo
02-02-2008, 11:37 PM
This is more of the "fantasy league" syndrome. People only look at the comparative talent involved in a trade. Real general managers have to consider the dollars involved. The Mets had to give up a lot less for Santana because both sides understood it was going to cost the Mets a fortune to keep Santana beyond this year. Swisher's trade value was helped by the fact that he was locked up for a long time at relatively low dollars. Fantasy league GM's don't have to take that into consideration.

There are also intangibles; the Twins apparently assigned a value to not having Santana remain the in the AL, as they took less from the Mets than what was rumored to be offered by the Red Sox. Whether you agree with how much value they assigned is a different argument, but again, it's not a consideration fantasy GM's have to factor in.

First of all, either you paid no attention during the Torii Hunter saga, or else you simply don't care about facts. KW wasn't given an opportunity to match the extra year for Hunter; he signed the offer from Anaheim without coming back to the Sox. You don't know whether KW would have been willing to "dish out" the extra year because he wasn't given the opportunity. Besides, most experts believe that the Angels vastly overpaid for Hunter.

QFT

Also, thank MIN for not dealing him to Boston.

Bobby Thigpen
02-02-2008, 11:47 PM
munch and shaun- I am not agreeing with you two. You were the ones I was calling delusional.

I don't know, maybe I'm not as much of a "fan" anymore, but I just don't see the point of running down every single thing my favorite team does before they even play a single game with the guys they got. I come back here every now and then to check on rumors and things, but some of the stuff that goes on here since 05 is just mind boggling.

I just don't get it. It seems as if most people on here are more miserable since the Sox actually won a World Series.

jabrch
02-03-2008, 12:02 AM
I just don't get it. It seems as if most people on here are more miserable since the Sox actually won a World Series.

No kidding... I really think there is a segment of our fanbase that just sucks. And it shows up more on the internet than at the park - fortunately.

Sockinchisox
02-03-2008, 12:08 AM
munch and shaun- I am not agreeing with you two. You were the ones I was calling delusional.

I don't know, maybe I'm not as much of a "fan" anymore, but I just don't see the point of running down every single thing my favorite team does before they even play a single game with the guys they got. I come back here every now and then to check on rumors and things, but some of the stuff that goes on here since 05 is just mind boggling.

I just don't get it. It seems as if most people on here are more miserable since the Sox actually won a World Series.

Oh, my bad. I interpreted it wrong, sorry to you and munch.

gogosox16
02-03-2008, 12:10 AM
Quentin is our best defensive OF'er. When fully healthy I'd like to see him get a shot in CF.
Has Quentin ever played CF at any level?

gogosox16
02-03-2008, 12:13 AM
munch and shaun- I am not agreeing with you two. You were the ones I was calling delusional.

I don't know, maybe I'm not as much of a "fan" anymore, but I just don't see the point of running down every single thing my favorite team does before they even play a single game with the guys they got. I come back here every now and then to check on rumors and things, but some of the stuff that goes on here since 05 is just mind boggling.

I just don't get it. It seems as if most people on here are more miserable since the Sox actually won a World Series.
I think people just expected since the Sox came out of no where that they thought the Sox would compete for Championships year in year out, but even the best teams and most talented teams don't win it all the time....The team that gets hot at the right time has a good shot and we got hot at the right time in 05', the Cards got hot at the right time in 06' and the Rockies got really hot at the right time to make the playoffs and to the world series in 07'.

munchman33
02-03-2008, 02:22 AM
I'll meet you there. I throw left handed, I'm sure I could land a job as either long relief or maybe even a 5th starter......

munchman/shaun/everyone else who has written off 2008.

Have fun being miserable. Last time I checked, all teams haven't played a single game yet. The Sox have the same chances as anyone else to win.

You're convinced that this team isn't built to win because it doesn't have Rowand or Hunter?!?!?!

Ok, besides Rowand's 2005 team (I think they were named the White Sox) name a team he's played on that he led to a World Series?

How about Hunter? How many rings is he sporting?

You guys bemoan KW moving Garland? Why, did you really enjoy his 2 1/3 innings of work when he'd give up 5/6/7/8 runs?

Jon was going to be gone at the end of 2008, come hell or high water. So Kenny improved the Sox lineup, and weakened the rotation. Ok, I'll give you that, IF THEY (BEING THE ROTATION) PITCH THE SAME AS THEY DID LAST YEAR. Guess what? Last year was then, this is now.

This team has a shot. I'm not entirely convinced that the Tigers are THAT solid. Quite a few of that "all-powerful" lineup are getting long in the tooth, and I'm sorry, their rotation isn't all that young and good either. From their own site:



So 3 of their 5 are coming off injuries, with one of the three IN HIS MID-FORTIES.

And like Willis is going to be soooooooooo solid against the actual MLB hitters, versus the AAAA hitters of the National League. :rolleyes:

The Twins just moved Santana, the Indians didn't do much to improve their garbage bullpen, and we're supposed to believe that the Sox don't have a chance, just because they didn't sign an aging outfielder or the one who has an annoying habit of hurting himself (and others) by missing his jumps on the ball and having to compensate to make the highlight reel?

Sure, who's drinking what.

Stop trying to fit me into a mold I'm not.

I haven't written off next year. There's a chance we could win the division. Sure. But there's a greater chance will win fewer ballgames next year than we did this year. What happens if Danks, Contreras, and Floyd all post eras in the 5's or worse? We win 65 games, that's what. And that isn't close to an impossibility. It's WAY more likely than each of them posting an ERA in the 3's, which is what it would take to compete for the division. You can forget everything else. Starting pitching is king, and there's a chance we'll have the worst starting five east of Arlington.

I don't have a problem with people that disagree. I DO have a problem with people that can hear no evil. This team has some major flaws in some very key areas. This team has the third best chance of making the playoffs from our division. Forget the "on paper" argument. Cleveland and Detroit both won over 90 games last year, and they've both improved. Are we seriously expected to jump 30 games in the standings? Some of you act like anything negative said about this team and it's construction is the result of someone "giving up." And that's bull****. The most passionate fans are the one's complaining, because they know something's wrong with the way the team is being run, at every level. You want Kool-aid, you're welcome to the team up north. I'm a Sox fan. I care about the way our team is run. When the GM does something stupid, I'm gonna let him have it. Because, damn it, I care about this team. And I'm not going to pretend like nothing's wrong.

munchman33
02-03-2008, 02:24 AM
He has hit 35 before I believe. On top of that he'll be in a smaller park and have much more protection. Still I'd take the extra on base if that's the approach he wants to take. If he can get on at .390 or .400 then 25 homers is good enough. It's not like we're desperate for power.

Considering he likely hasn't peaked yet, 40 homers is a possibility at some point.

Yeah, but his power dropped when he started to concentrate more on OBP, which is what he'll be doing here.

But yes, he is a fine player.

munchman33
02-03-2008, 02:26 AM
I think people just expected since the Sox came out of no where that they thought the Sox would compete for Championships year in year out, but even the best teams and most talented teams don't win it all the time....The team that gets hot at the right time has a good shot and we got hot at the right time in 05', the Cards got hot at the right time in 06' and the Rockies got really hot at the right time to make the playoffs and to the world series in 07'.

No.

That team had better starting pitching. I had a good feeling about that team. With this team, I'm seriously worried we'll be 20 games back by June. It could really happen.

munchman33
02-03-2008, 02:27 AM
You're including Shaun in that analysis? :?:

Oh be nice.

munchman33
02-03-2008, 02:36 AM
munch and shaun- I am not agreeing with you two. You were the ones I was calling delusional.

I don't know, maybe I'm not as much of a "fan" anymore, but I just don't see the point of running down every single thing my favorite team does before they even play a single game with the guys they got. I come back here every now and then to check on rumors and things, but some of the stuff that goes on here since 05 is just mind boggling.

I just don't get it. It seems as if most people on here are more miserable since the Sox actually won a World Series.

So one can't be critical of horrible moves and be a fan?

Let me guess, you became a fan in 2005? Right?

Kenny and Ozzie can do no wrong. 2005 baby!

Some of us still remember what it was like before 2005. When we didn't enter the season with a rotation full of guys who were certain to give you a chance. And watched those teams crumble. So don't tell me I don't have a right to complain. Because it's the same wait for the best and hope bull**** we were fed up until that year, when we signed a legit 5th starter for the first time ever.

Please don't write back until 2010. You've filled your quoto for the next two seasons.

Grzegorz
02-03-2008, 04:43 AM
Quentin is our best defensive OF'er. When fully healthy I'd like to see him get a shot in CF.

What body of evidence tells you that Carlos Quentin would be serviceable in CF?

TornLabrum
02-03-2008, 07:18 AM
I just don't get it. It seems as if most people on here are more miserable since the Sox actually won a World Series.

They want more pie.

cws05champ
02-03-2008, 07:51 AM
I beleive any threads started by Shaun should be locked. 1) Because he's a troll and just posting to get a rise out of people 2) creating much more work for the mods 3) He is just posting to promote his blog, which coincidentily is just copy and pasted onto this message board.

Frontman
02-03-2008, 08:21 AM
They want more pie.

We all do, certainly Hal. But some of us weren't raised with the attitude of pounding our fists onto the table until we get what we want. We were raised to be patient and wait until its time for pie. Right now, Kenny has thrown together the recepie, he's going to put it in the oven; and noone knows what it will taste like when it comes out.

munch, my point is that you keep saying "What if, what if, what if?" about bad results from Sox players. I'm saying "Why not, why not, why not?" about either that NOT happening to Contreras, Danks, and Floyd and instead to Rogers, Verlander, and Sabathia? They can just as easily get hurt or "lose" their edge and not be as effective. How can anyone be certain that the Indians can't become injury plagued like the Sox were last season? The Twins are in rebuilding mode, and the Royals are a, pardon the pun, a Wild Card in this as you never can tell what they'll do. And the Tigers are just older, longer in the tooth, and besides Cabrera, I'm not all that impressed with their moves.

The Sox moves look solid now, but that's because using last season as a baseline, having players show up with a pulse and a glove seems like an improvement. But that being said, they've signed some talented and experienced bullpen help (which was sorely lacking last season) they lost Garland (9 months earlier than they were automatically going to) and they improved the outfield and shortstop. You look at last season, the Sox were hurt by the lineup not hitting, the defense being bad, and the bullpen blowing any leads/close games that they could. With the 2007/08 offseason moves, the Sox have addressed all of those needs, with the loss of Jon Garland. Oh sure, DLS *might* turn out to be incredible; but I'm almost positive Gio Gonzalez will be back again in a Sox uniform. The kid's a freakin' boomerrang!

I would be shouting from the mountaintops that the Sox stink if they had not made any moves. That was one of my primary concerns going into 2007 after 2006, as yes; they won 90 games in 2006. But they didn't win enough. Did the Sox make enough improvements to make it past two other teams? Last off season, I did not feel that they did. This year, I think the Sox weakened their starting pitching to improve the lineup, defensive play, and the bullpen was improved by FA aquisition.

Now, this year, I feel that Kenny has made moves. Do I think its a sure fire lock? No, the only thing I'm sure of is that water is wet, I'll still have to pay taxes, and there's snow on the ground today. I can't say for certain that the Sox are going to win or lose the division.

My point is noone should be "sure." If you look back at all the prospectus/pre-season predictions/talking heads at ESPN; the 2005 Chicago White Sox had ZERO chance of winning the championship. We all saw how that turned out, didn't we?

Kenny has also started building for the future with trades like Swisher (young talented MLB player who can play 10+ years) and the signing of Alexei Ramierez. Does the farm system need some major rebuilding? Absolutely. But AA prospects are not sure fire World Series MVP players. The Sox will aquire talent as time goes on to rebuild the farm system.

Yelling about it, brow beating those who are "drinking the kool-aid" as fans, saying that the Sox suck, etc. will NOT change the fact that the Sox have tried (and are still trying) to get back to the Fall Classic.

And I know I'll be there; as the song goes, "With you all the way."

I waited 34 years to see a championship. I'm willing to be patient to see the next one.

I do hope this pie does turn out.

TornLabrum
02-03-2008, 08:45 AM
I beleive any threads started by Shaun should be locked. 1) Because he's a troll and just posting to get a rise out of people 2) creating much more work for the mods 3) He is just posting to promote his blog, which coincidentily is just copy and pasted onto this message board.

Please leave the moderating to the mods. If you have a specific complaint, you will notice an icon that is a triangle with an exclamation point inside. You can use that to report posts that may contain violations of WSI rules. Much better than taking it to the message boards, and it doesn't put you in the position of looking like you're telling us how to do our jobs.

fquaye149
02-03-2008, 08:58 AM
Yeah, but his power dropped when he started to concentrate more on OBP, which is what he'll be doing here.

But yes, he is a fine player.

2005: .322 OBP, 21 HR
2006: .372 OBP, 35 HR
2007: .381 OBP, 22 HR

Yeah that must be it

:rolleyes:

sullythered
02-03-2008, 08:58 AM
I think people just expected since the Sox came out of no where that they thought the Sox would compete for Championships year in year out, but even the best teams and most talented teams don't win it all the time....The team that gets hot at the right time has a good shot and we got hot at the right time in 05', the Cards got hot at the right time in 06' and the Rockies got really hot at the right time to make the playoffs and to the world series in 07'.
The '05 Sox won 99 games, had the best record in the American league, and were in first place from wire to wire. They then won 11 of 12 games in the playoffs. The '06 Cards were barely over .500 and got hot at the right time. There is no comparison.

kittle42
02-03-2008, 09:21 AM
Has Quentin ever played CF at any level?

Amen. What is with this anointing of Carlos Quentin practically sight unseen by the majority of folks here?

kittle42
02-03-2008, 09:26 AM
So one can't be critical of horrible moves and be a fan?

Let me guess, you became a fan in 2005? Right?

Kenny and Ozzie can do no wrong. 2005 baby!

Some of us still remember what it was like before 2005. When we didn't enter the season with a rotation full of guys who were certain to give you a chance. And watched those teams crumble. So don't tell me I don't have a right to complain. Because it's the same wait for the best and hope bull**** we were fed up until that year, when we signed a legit 5th starter for the first time ever.

Please don't write back until 2010. You've filled your quoto for the next two seasons.


Munch, I will agree with you on this - I really, really hate the "don't criticize a team before they've played one game" argument because it's complete bull****. I think time has shown that, more often than not, teams play as expected before the season starts. There are always "surprise" teams, of course, in every sport. But you don't sit around crossing your fingers that your team will be a surprise team every season, and aside from 2006, that really does seem to generally be what the Sox do.

Bobby Thigpen
02-03-2008, 09:39 AM
So one can't be critical of horrible moves and be a fan?

Let me guess, you became a fan in 2005? Right?

Kenny and Ozzie can do no wrong. 2005 baby!

Some of us still remember what it was like before 2005. When we didn't enter the season with a rotation full of guys who were certain to give you a chance. And watched those teams crumble. So don't tell me I don't have a right to complain. Because it's the same wait for the best and hope bull**** we were fed up until that year, when we signed a legit 5th starter for the first time ever.

Please don't write back until 2010. You've filled your quoto for the next two seasons.
No, you can be critical. It's when you're critical of EVERY single move ever made, that imakes me wonder why you're a fan.

No, I didn't become a fan in 05. Have been a fan for much longer than that. In some ways since birth. Not "officially" until 90.

Please stop acting like you know anything about me. Maybe, just maybe before you start ripping on someone for being bandwagon you could at least check their profile to see if they know anything.

For example- I read yours and I think I found out why you have so much time to spend fretting over every thing Kenny Williams does. I hope his lunch choice today doesn't disappoint you.

jabrch
02-03-2008, 09:47 AM
I hope his lunch choice today doesn't disappoint you.

That's freaking hysterical - because it is so true.

We have so many fans here who are so freaking brilliant and know so much about they game that they can make a determination, as a matter of fact, about every move Williams makes. It truly is amazing how much some many people at WSI must know about the game.

Too bad it doesn't show in many of their posts.

champagne030
02-03-2008, 10:02 AM
That's freaking hysterical - because it is so true.

We have so many fans here who are so freaking brilliant and know so much about they game that they can make a determination, as a matter of fact, about every move Williams makes. It truly is amazing how much some many people at WSI must know about the game.

Too bad it doesn't show in many of their posts.

And you'll post how KW's lunch choice is the greatest in the history of lunch choices.

How are you so much more brilliant than anyone on here that you "can make a determination, as a matter of fact" that all of KW's moves are fantastic?

It sure doesn't show in many of your posts.

Jerksticks
02-03-2008, 10:14 AM
I think Swisher had better power numbers cause he had manhulk Thomas in the lineup that year.

Same OBP in 2007, but no manbeast behind him.

JSticks

TomBradley72
02-03-2008, 10:16 AM
I like Swisher on this team more than some of those other names too. But say Kenny signed a free agent CF. Then spin prospects for another hole. Don't you think Gio and Sweeney could pry Brian Roberts from Baltimore? I sure do.

It's funny that everyone thinks the Twins got "exploited." The way I see it, Kenny Williams got exploited in the Swisher trade. He acted out of desperation, and he didn't even need to.

That's why I would have favored the Rowand signing. I would have rather taken a risk on the 5th year (all reports has the Sox ready to sign at 4 years)..then take the risk on trading so many prospects for a guy who's not a true CF + losing the opportunity to trade those prospects to fill another hole (ie. starting rotation, 2B).

TomBradley72
02-03-2008, 10:20 AM
I haven't written off next year. There's a chance we could win the division. Sure. But there's a greater chance will win fewer ballgames next year than we did this year. What happens if Danks, Contreras, and Floyd all post eras in the 5's or worse? We win 65 games, that's what. And that isn't close to an impossibility. It's WAY more likely than each of them posting an ERA in the 3's, which is what it would take to compete for the division. You can forget everything else. Starting pitching is king, and there's a chance we'll have the worst starting five east of Arlington.

I don't have a problem with people that disagree. I DO have a problem with people that can hear no evil. This team has some major flaws in some very key areas. This team has the third best chance of making the playoffs from our division. Forget the "on paper" argument. Cleveland and Detroit both won over 90 games last year, and they've both improved. Are we seriously expected to jump 30 games in the standings? Some of you act like anything negative said about this team and it's construction is the result of someone "giving up." And that's bull****. The most passionate fans are the one's complaining, because they know something's wrong with the way the team is being run, at every level. You want Kool-aid, you're welcome to the team up north. I'm a Sox fan. I care about the way our team is run. When the GM does something stupid, I'm gonna let him have it. Because, damn it, I care about this team. And I'm not going to pretend like nothing's wrong.

:yup:

munchman33
02-03-2008, 11:23 AM
No, you can be critical. It's when you're critical of EVERY single move ever made, that imakes me wonder why you're a fan.

No, I didn't become a fan in 05. Have been a fan for much longer than that. In some ways since birth. Not "officially" until 90.

Please stop acting like you know anything about me. Maybe, just maybe before you start ripping on someone for being bandwagon you could at least check their profile to see if they know anything.

For example- I read yours and I think I found out why you have so much time to spend fretting over every thing Kenny Williams does. I hope his lunch choice today doesn't disappoint you.

I haven't been critical of all his moves. I like the Quentin move. At first, I like the Garland move (until it became clear we weren't replacing him). I was for both bullpen signings.

I've mostly been critical of Kenny's inactivity. He waited, waited, waited, and then made a move because there was nothing left that fit. And he paid a cost he never should have. It isn't anyone's fault but his own, and he's done a lot of damage to the organization because of it. I'm not going to let him off the hook because we won a World Series in '05. It isn't a get out of jail free card.

munchman33
02-03-2008, 11:26 AM
We all do, certainly Hal. But some of us weren't raised with the attitude of pounding our fists onto the table until we get what we want. We were raised to be patient and wait until its time for pie. Right now, Kenny has thrown together the recepie, he's going to put it in the oven; and noone knows what it will taste like when it comes out.

munch, my point is that you keep saying "What if, what if, what if?" about bad results from Sox players. I'm saying "Why not, why not, why not?" about either that NOT happening to Contreras, Danks, and Floyd and instead to Rogers, Verlander, and Sabathia? They can just as easily get hurt or "lose" their edge and not be as effective. How can anyone be certain that the Indians can't become injury plagued like the Sox were last season? The Twins are in rebuilding mode, and the Royals are a, pardon the pun, a Wild Card in this as you never can tell what they'll do. And the Tigers are just older, longer in the tooth, and besides Cabrera, I'm not all that impressed with their moves.

The Sox moves look solid now, but that's because using last season as a baseline, having players show up with a pulse and a glove seems like an improvement. But that being said, they've signed some talented and experienced bullpen help (which was sorely lacking last season) they lost Garland (9 months earlier than they were automatically going to) and they improved the outfield and shortstop. You look at last season, the Sox were hurt by the lineup not hitting, the defense being bad, and the bullpen blowing any leads/close games that they could. With the 2007/08 offseason moves, the Sox have addressed all of those needs, with the loss of Jon Garland. Oh sure, DLS *might* turn out to be incredible; but I'm almost positive Gio Gonzalez will be back again in a Sox uniform. The kid's a freakin' boomerrang!

I would be shouting from the mountaintops that the Sox stink if they had not made any moves. That was one of my primary concerns going into 2007 after 2006, as yes; they won 90 games in 2006. But they didn't win enough. Did the Sox make enough improvements to make it past two other teams? Last off season, I did not feel that they did. This year, I think the Sox weakened their starting pitching to improve the lineup, defensive play, and the bullpen was improved by FA aquisition.

Now, this year, I feel that Kenny has made moves. Do I think its a sure fire lock? No, the only thing I'm sure of is that water is wet, I'll still have to pay taxes, and there's snow on the ground today. I can't say for certain that the Sox are going to win or lose the division.

My point is noone should be "sure." If you look back at all the prospectus/pre-season predictions/talking heads at ESPN; the 2005 Chicago White Sox had ZERO chance of winning the championship. We all saw how that turned out, didn't we?

Kenny has also started building for the future with trades like Swisher (young talented MLB player who can play 10+ years) and the signing of Alexei Ramierez. Does the farm system need some major rebuilding? Absolutely. But AA prospects are not sure fire World Series MVP players. The Sox will aquire talent as time goes on to rebuild the farm system.

Yelling about it, brow beating those who are "drinking the kool-aid" as fans, saying that the Sox suck, etc. will NOT change the fact that the Sox have tried (and are still trying) to get back to the Fall Classic.

And I know I'll be there; as the song goes, "With you all the way."

I waited 34 years to see a championship. I'm willing to be patient to see the next one.

I do hope this pie does turn out.

Front I see what you're saying. But I'd be lying if I didn't contend that my "what if" scenerios were considerably more likely than your "why not" scenarios.

But I can see that Kenny is trying. I just think that, especially this offseason, he's done a bad job of it.

fquaye149
02-03-2008, 11:34 AM
Front I see what you're saying. But I'd be lying if I didn't contend that my "what if" scenerios were considerably more likely than your "why not" scenarios.

But I can see that Kenny is trying. I just think that, especially this offseason, he's done a bad job of it.

So besides not signing the one CF we had targeted because he signed a deal that almost all experts agreed was well above a reasonable price for his skillset and age-bracket, not signing an average CF to a similarly expensive deal at the 6 year length that he requested, and not signing a CF coming off an abysmal year and who has attitude questions to a 2 year 36 million dollar deal, what exactly has Kenny failed to do?

Sign a non-existent pitcher? Make a trade for a non-existent available at a personnel-price-the-sox-are-simply-not-capable-of-putting-together?

Certainly Kenny has his shortcomings. The bullpen of 2007 is one. The dearth of talent in our minor league system is one of them as well. But failing to sign a CF in this market as well as trading a starting pitcher with an eye towards 09, though not useful for competing in 2008 certainly don't seem to me like "a bad job"

Hendu
02-03-2008, 11:38 AM
Wow, after 2 pages I can't read any more of this garbage. Swisher would be a good fit on any team in MLB. He can play a few different positions adequately, he can get on base, he can hit lefties, he's got power, he's entering his prime, and he's signed to a great contract.

munchman33
02-03-2008, 11:38 AM
2005: .322 OBP, 21 HR
2006: .372 OBP, 35 HR
2007: .381 OBP, 22 HR

Yeah that must be it

:rolleyes:

Well, he personally said that his drop in power was due to a new plate approach. But yes, that does seem to negate that theory.

munchman33
02-03-2008, 11:41 AM
So besides not signing the one CF we had targeted because he signed a deal that almost all experts agreed was well above a reasonable price for his skillset and age-bracket, not signing an average CF to a similarly expensive deal at the 6 year length that he requested, and not signing a CF coming off an abysmal year and who has attitude questions to a 2 year 36 million dollar deal, what exactly has Kenny failed to do?

Sign a non-existent pitcher? Make a trade for a non-existent available at a personnel-price-the-sox-are-simply-not-capable-of-putting-together?

Certainly Kenny has his shortcomings. The bullpen of 2007 is one. The dearth of talent in our minor league system is one of them as well. But failing to sign a CF in this market as well as trading a starting pitcher with an eye towards 09, though not useful for competing in 2008 certainly don't seem to me like "a bad job"

This was the deepest CF market in years. And there's still a CF that needs to be traded.

If the sox were willing to trade DLS (which obviously they were), then they could have traded for a starter. There were starters available. Heck, the A's had one to give earlier this offseason. The Orioles still have one, and we probably could have spun the Swisher package and at least gotten in the door.

There were sooo many options out there for KW. That this is the path he took is pretty sickening. The team is still very flawed, and he doesn't have a lot of room to manuever.

fquaye149
02-03-2008, 11:54 AM
This was the deepest CF market in years. And there's still a CF that needs to be traded.

Are you talking about Gary Matthews or Coco Crisp?

:?:

It was a deep market, but the problem was the deep market had

a.) Hunter who won the lottery

b.) Rowand, who wanted six ****ing years

c.) Jones, who was coming off a miserable year.

There were a lot of names out there, but not a lot of good signings, no matter how big a need CF is.

re: Matthews and Crisp, certainly there is still time for Kenny to deal for them, but I wouldn't consider an offseason where a team doesn't acquire Coco Crisp a failure for that ****ing reason :?:


If the sox were willing to trade DLS (which obviously they were), then they could have traded for a starter. There were starters available. Heck, the A's had one to give earlier this offseason. The Orioles still have one, and we probably could have spun the Swisher package and at least gotten in the door.

We didn't have the pieces for Haren and we sure as **** didn't have them for Bedard.

What other starter are you thinking? Joe Blanton?


There were sooo many options out there for KW. That this is the path he took is pretty sickening. The team is still very flawed, and he doesn't have a lot of room to manuever.


SOOOOO many? So far you've listed the following options as reasons why Kenny's failed:

--Rowand (who wanted far more years than any team should commit to Aaron Rowand)


--Andruw Jones, coming off a season where he hit, like, .220

--Erik Bedard, who has yet to be traded, and is certainly likely to net more than 2 B/B+ prospects (i.e. DLS and Gio)

--Dan Haren who DID yield much more than 2 B/B+ prospects

--Coco Crisp

--Gary Matthews (I think?)

--Joe Blanton

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many options........except that 2 weren't available to us (Bedard and Haren), one is almost certainly not available for what we're capable of offering (Blanton), two are mediocre, at best, players (Matthews, Crisp), one was an idiotic signing (Rowand at six years), one was a huge risk (Jones), and one we legitimately lost out on, albeit in a way that really doesn't reflect poorly on Kenny (Hunter)

Sooooo many options. Except...this isn't Playstation...

fquaye149
02-03-2008, 11:55 AM
Well, he personally said that his drop in power was due to a new plate approach. But yes, that does seem to negate that theory.

That's an interesting comment from Swisher. But then again, Podsednik said his lousy 2004 was strictly because he was tryin to hit HR. Most likely, though, it's because Podsednik sucks more often than not

goon
02-03-2008, 12:06 PM
This was the deepest CF market in years. And there's still a CF that needs to be traded.

If the sox were willing to trade DLS (which obviously they were), then they could have traded for a starter. There were starters available. Heck, the A's had one to give earlier this offseason. The Orioles still have one, and we probably could have spun the Swisher package and at least gotten in the door.

There were sooo many options out there for KW. That this is the path he took is pretty sickening. The team is still very flawed, and he doesn't have a lot of room to manuever.

How do you know that Williams didn't try to get Danny Haren, Erik Bedard or whomever? Because we didn't get them? I'm sure Williams explored options as far as Starting Pitching, but let's be clear about something, this team needed a lot more than just a SP. They needed bullpen help desperately, Williams addressed that, we needed a better hitter in the top of the lineup, he got OC, and while everyone complains about the age of our team he went out and got Quentin, Ramirez, Swisher to compliment Fields, Richar, Danks and Floyd.

Only the most cynical of fans would complain about acquiring Nick Swisher. I understand some feel that Williams overspent, sure, that's a valid argument. However, don't pretend Swisher is just an "average" player or that he doesn't "fit" into this team because he doesn't have speed. You are just looking for reasons to be miserable.

TaylorStSox
02-03-2008, 12:15 PM
I don't think I bashed Ozzie in any of my articles

Lets get our facts straight there bud



Articles? This is a message board champ. Delusions of grandeur much?

kittle42
02-03-2008, 12:56 PM
Anyone who thinks Williams did the best he could this offseason is an idiot.

Anyone who thinks Williams did the worst job possible this offseason is an idiot.


There - everyone get in the middle and be happy.

munchman33
02-03-2008, 01:38 PM
Are you talking about Gary Matthews or Coco Crisp?

:?:

It was a deep market, but the problem was the deep market had

a.) Hunter who won the lottery

b.) Rowand, who wanted six ****ing years

c.) Jones, who was coming off a miserable year.

There were a lot of names out there, but not a lot of good signings, no matter how big a need CF is.

re: Matthews and Crisp, certainly there is still time for Kenny to deal for them, but I wouldn't consider an offseason where a team doesn't acquire Coco Crisp a failure for that ****ing reason :?:



We didn't have the pieces for Haren and we sure as **** didn't have them for Bedard.

What other starter are you thinking? Joe Blanton?




SOOOOO many? So far you've listed the following options as reasons why Kenny's failed:

--Rowand (who wanted far more years than any team should commit to Aaron Rowand)


--Andruw Jones, coming off a season where he hit, like, .220

--Erik Bedard, who has yet to be traded, and is certainly likely to net more than 2 B/B+ prospects (i.e. DLS and Gio)

--Dan Haren who DID yield much more than 2 B/B+ prospects

--Coco Crisp

--Gary Matthews (I think?)

--Joe Blanton

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many options........except that 2 weren't available to us (Bedard and Haren), one is almost certainly not available for what we're capable of offering (Blanton), two are mediocre, at best, players (Matthews, Crisp), one was an idiotic signing (Rowand at six years), one was a huge risk (Jones), and one we legitimately lost out on, albeit in a way that really doesn't reflect poorly on Kenny (Hunter)

Sooooo many options. Except...this isn't Playstation...

1. I meant Crisp.
2. Bedard and Haren weren't available to us? I must have forgotten where I read that. Oh wait, I remember, no where. Because that isn't true at all.
3. If you're going to contend that DLS is anything but a 5 star blue chip prospect, as every reputable minor league evaluation entity rated him, then I believe it is you who needs to turn off the Playstation.


How do you know that Williams didn't try to get Danny Haren, Erik Bedard or whomever? Because we didn't get them? I'm sure Williams explored options as far as Starting Pitching, but let's be clear about something, this team needed a lot more than just a SP. They needed bullpen help desperately, Williams addressed that, we needed a better hitter in the top of the lineup, he got OC, and while everyone complains about the age of our team he went out and got Quentin, Ramirez, Swisher to compliment Fields, Richar, Danks and Floyd.

Only the most cynical of fans would complain about acquiring Nick Swisher. I understand some feel that Williams overspent, sure, that's a valid argument. However, don't pretend Swisher is just an "average" player or that he doesn't "fit" into this team because he doesn't have speed. You are just looking for reasons to be miserable.

I agree that we did need a lot of help. But the rotation is a heckuva lot harder to fill than CF, where options were more plentiful than I can ever remember.

Also, I say Swisher doesn't fit because he isn't really a CF. Can he play it? Sure. But so could Mackowiak. And I don't want to hear the FOBA clamoring by April 15th.

HomeFish
02-03-2008, 01:49 PM
Gio Gonzolez, Ryan Sweeny, and Fautino De Los Santos were the sox 2, 3, and 4 best prospects respectively.


This is a meaningless statement. Our farm system is absolutely terrible, and being the #4, #3, or #2 prospect in it is like winning a tallest midget contest. When was the last time our farm system produced a worthwhile major league pitcher? 2001?

As far as I'm concerned, with any player in our farm system, there is a presumption that he is a scrub, which you have not rebutted.

fquaye149
02-03-2008, 01:52 PM
2. Bedard and Haren weren't available to us? I must have forgotten where I read that. Oh wait, I remember, no where. Because that isn't true at all.

It's not that anyone has said they weren't available to us.

It's that

a.) The Orioles have turned down packages for Bedard that are comprised of talent that eclipses the very best we could have offered even WITH DLS and gio

b.) The A's GOTmuch more talent for Haren than we had to offer even WITH DLS and gio.

Therefore, just as with Cabrera, these players were/are not available to us because, even WITH DLS and Gio we do not have/did not have the trade pieces to entice their GM's to give them up

3. If you're going to contend that DLS is anything but a 5 star blue chip prospect, as every reputable minor league evaluation entity rated him, then I believe it is you who needs to turn off the Playstation.:rolleyes:

I know you love DLS and I know a lot of scouts rank him highly, but this statement is hyperbole of the most outrageous type.

Gio and DLS are similar prospects. Gio is more major league ready and DLS has more potential upside but a limited number of pitches he has good command of. Gio is projected to be a #2/#3 starter as his ceiling,DLS's ceiling is slightly higher, but there's also the possibility he'll wind up no better than middle relief.

Don't believe me? Baseball America, for one, has Gio ranked ahead of DLS in the A's system:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/265531.html

Projected rotation in 3 years? Gio #1 starter, DLS #3. That doesn't mean either of them are much better than B/B+ prospects in the estimation of many GM's and scouts

Hendu
02-03-2008, 01:55 PM
3. If you're going to contend that DLS is anything but a 5 star blue chip prospect, as every reputable minor league evaluation entity rated him, then I believe it is you who needs to turn off the Playstation.

:?: The kid's a decent prospect, but a 5-star blue chip prospect? Hyperbole alert.

Sockinchisox
02-03-2008, 02:01 PM
:?: The kid's a decent prospect, but a 5-star blue chip prospect? Hyperbole alert.

BP had him rated as a 5 star prospect.

fquaye149
02-03-2008, 02:05 PM
BP had him rated as a 5 star prospect.

The Five-Star blue-chip thing is the hyperbole.

As in, that teams consider him a must-have piece.

DLS is roughly equivalent to Gio in terms of trade value, which is relatively high, but not the kind of prospect who, in and of themself, are the building blocks of a trade for a superstar. Not a Homer Bailey (whom the Orioles turned down in Bedard talks, for instance) type, that is.

Calling him a 5-star blue chip prospect as if to suggest any GM worth his salt will give up, say, a Dan Haren or Erik Bedard for a package that includes DLS and other supplementary talent is distorting the truth of the situation, which is to say that Dan Haren and Erik Bedard are not available in trade for an assortment of B-grade prospects like DLS and Gio

This DLS love Munchman's belching up is eerily close to the Jeremy Reed bull**** going on round time of the Freddy Garcia trade...another top-notch talent and 5 star prospect, but not the kind of prospect that would net much more than 1 year of an ace-type pitcher.

In this case DLS is a top-notch talent, as is Gio, but they're not going to net a Bedard or a Haren. Frankly, we're lucky to get a young, cheap OBP-and-HR-machine like Swisher for them.

munchman33
02-03-2008, 02:19 PM
It's not that anyone has said they weren't available to us.

It's that

a.) The Orioles have turned down packages for Bedard that are comprised of talent that eclipses the very best we could have offered even WITH DLS and gio

b.) The A's GOTmuch more talent for Haren than we had to offer even WITH DLS and gio.

Therefore, just as with Cabrera, these players were/are not available to us because, even WITH DLS and Gio we do not have/did not have the trade pieces to entice their GM's to give them up

:rolleyes:

I know you love DLS and I know a lot of scouts rank him highly, but this statement is hyperbole of the most outrageous type.

Gio and DLS are similar prospects. Gio is more major league ready and DLS has more potential upside but a limited number of pitches he has good command of. Gio is projected to be a #2/#3 starter as his ceiling,DLS's ceiling is slightly higher, but there's also the possibility he'll wind up no better than middle relief.

Don't believe me? Baseball America, for one, has Gio ranked ahead of DLS in the A's system:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/265531.html

Projected rotation in 3 years? Gio #1 starter, DLS #3. That doesn't mean either of them are much better than B/B+ prospects in the estimation of many GM's and scouts

I disagree that the O's have seen better packages than DLS and Gio. And a package of Gio, DLS, and Danks would net us Bedard in a heartbeat. If you were gonna overspend, that's the player you should have overspent on.

You are vastly misinterpreting what those rankings represent. DLS is lower than Gio on that list, but he's still a 5 star prospect while Gio is not.

And for the record, DLS throws for pitches. A four seem fastball, a sinker, a slurve, and a changeup. The first three are already plus mlb pitches that he can locate. He learned the change this year. Once he's got it down, he's ready.

munchman33
02-03-2008, 02:23 PM
The Five-Star blue-chip thing is the hyperbole.

As in, that teams consider him a must-have piece.

DLS is roughly equivalent to Gio in terms of trade value, which is relatively high, but not the kind of prospect who, in and of themself, are the building blocks of a trade for a superstar. Not a Homer Bailey (whom the Orioles turned down in Bedard talks, for instance) type, that is.

Calling him a 5-star blue chip prospect as if to suggest any GM worth his salt will give up, say, a Dan Haren or Erik Bedard for a package that includes DLS and other supplementary talent is distorting the truth of the situation, which is to say that Dan Haren and Erik Bedard are not available in trade for an assortment of B-grade prospects like DLS and Gio

This DLS love Munchman's belching up is eerily close to the Jeremy Reed bull**** going on round time of the Freddy Garcia trade...another top-notch talent and 5 star prospect, but not the kind of prospect that would net much more than 1 year of an ace-type pitcher.

In this case DLS is a top-notch talent, as is Gio, but they're not going to net a Bedard or a Haren. Frankly, we're lucky to get a young, cheap OBP-and-HR-machine like Swisher for them.

Haha...okay. I can't argue with you because you're mind is made up and it has nothing to do with the types of players we're talking about and more about a previous poster.

You'll see in a year.

goon
02-03-2008, 02:26 PM
I agree that we did need a lot of help. But the rotation is a heckuva lot harder to fill than CF, where options were more plentiful than I can ever remember.

Also, I say Swisher doesn't fit because he isn't really a CF. Can he play it? Sure. But so could Mackowiak. And I don't want to hear the FOBA clamoring by April 15th.

Besides Torii Hunter, who Williams tried to sign by the way, were any of the other options really worth the money? We've already agreed that Rowand and Jones probably weren't the answer, besides them all I can think of is Crisp. What's the point of making a move for Crisp, losing even more players in your farm system or off your major league team when you have Jerry Owens? They're pretty much the same player, exchange a few home runs for 15-20 SB and they're the same player.

I completely agree with the concern about Swisher in CF, but I'm not so certain he will be our CF, I'm assuming he will be in LF. With Dye, Owens, Swisher and Quentin, I think Owens will end up in CF, which I know some people hate, but I'd be okay with that decision. Between all of the CF's on the market, the only one who seemed worth the money and sort of fit into what the Sox were trying to do was Hunter. He chose the Angels.

goon
02-03-2008, 02:35 PM
I disagree that the O's have seen better packages than DLS and Gio. And a package of Gio, DLS, and Danks would net us Bedard in a heartbeat. If you were gonna overspend, that's the player you should have overspent on.


As much as I love Bedard (I drafted him fourth in my fantasy draft last season) I'm not certain I'd want to give up that much pitching for him. Two of those guys sure, but Bedard had never pitched over 200 innings, he's had elbow problems in the past and is only under contract for another two years, I believe. To me, that's actually a worse trade because even though Bedard has amazing stuff, you might lose him in two years anyway and there have been questions about his durability. I remember last August the O's had to sit him for 4 starts because of pain in his shoulder, than they just ended up shutting him down because they were so far out of the race.

I would definitely ship off two of those pitchers with other pieces IF they netted Bedard. I wouldn't even think about it.

fquaye149
02-03-2008, 02:35 PM
Haha...okay. I can't argue with you because you're mind is made up and it has nothing to do with the types of players we're talking about and more about a previous poster.

You'll see in a year.

It's not that my mind is made up at all.

I have never seen DLS pitch--I only have scouting reports to read and a sense of KW's awareness of relative prospect value.

I have seen a lot of people project DLS to have all-star ceiling, a great fastball and slider, I have seen other people say that that great fastball and slider have a middle-of-the-rotation ceiling and a very very low floor for a supposed "five-star prospect".

I really have NOT made my mind up. What my mind IS made up about is that your characterization of DLS as a 5-star blue chip in EVERY scout's eyes is a misrepresentation of reality.

I have also a suspicion that if Kenny thought that if any other GM's thought DLS was a "five star blue-chip" he probably wouldn't have needed to spin Gio AND DLS in a deal.

But maybe you're right--maybe KW had NO IDEA that DLS is the equivalent of, say a Homer Bailey in the trade market

--after all, we're not talking about whether DLS will be good. I'm sure he will. We're talking about how other GM's rate DLS

ALSO: IN A YEAR?! You think DLS is a YEAR AWAY? Speaking of "scouts and experts" NONE OF THEM think he's a year away :rolleyes:

fquaye149
02-03-2008, 02:37 PM
I disagree that the O's have seen better packages than DLS and Gio. And a package of Gio, DLS, and Danks would net us Bedard in a heartbeat. If you were gonna overspend, that's the player you should have overspent on.


a.) I'm not convinced that Gio, DLS and Danks WOULD have landed us Bedard

b.) I wouldn't hate that deal, but it wouldn't make us a competitor. We'd upgrade the Danks spots significantly, but Danks was the least of the two question marks in our rotation.

We would have the same amount of holes in our rotation, but with a better 1,2,3. And that's assuming this trade goes down. If Homer Bailey and another MLB arm (I forget who) couldn't net Bedard, who's to say 2 B/B+ prospects and a MLB pitcher of debatable value in Danks would have netted Bedard?

Daver
02-03-2008, 02:43 PM
Hey Munch, what is DLS's won/lost record in the majors?

EndemicSox
02-03-2008, 02:48 PM
a guy with a .380 OBP with 30+ homerun power, not to mention the ability to play every out-field position, in addition to 1B is a welcome addition to every team in the league...time will tell, but I believe the Sox come out of this deal looking like bandits...

...
02-03-2008, 02:50 PM
Hey Munch, what is DLS's won/lost record in the majors?

It doesn't matter. People like him get off to prospects and are oblivious to the real world, being our ML level team. You know, the one that matters...

...
02-03-2008, 02:52 PM
a guy with a .380 OBP with 30+ homerun power, not to mention the ability to play every out-field position, in addition to 1B is a welcome addition to every team in the league...time will tell, but I believe the Sox come out of this deal looking like bandits...

But, but, but...!!!!

Ahhhh, screw you and your logic!!!!

Seriously though, 100% true...

Hendu
02-03-2008, 02:59 PM
BP had him rated as a 5 star prospect.

There's a difference between "BP had him rated as a 5 star prospect" and "a 5 star blue chip prospect, as every reputable minor league evaluation entity rated him"

Blue chip is a can't miss future superstar, who could be a centerpiece for any deal. If Kenny had held Gio out of that deal arguing that DLS was enough, Beane probably would have hung up.

fquaye149
02-03-2008, 03:09 PM
There's a difference between "BP had him rated as a 5 star prospect" and "a 5 star blue chip prospect, as every reputable minor league evaluation entity rated him"

Blue chip is a can't miss future superstar, who could be a centerpiece for any deal. If Kenny had held Gio out of that deal arguing that DLS was enough, Beane probably would have hung up.


Exactly what I've been trying to say, said much more efficiently

diehardRLsoxfan
02-03-2008, 03:51 PM
There's a difference between "BP had him rated as a 5 star prospect" and "a 5 star blue chip prospect, as every reputable minor league evaluation entity rated him"

Blue chip is a can't miss future superstar

No such thing as a can't miss prospect in baseball.

fquaye149
02-03-2008, 04:03 PM
No such thing as a can't miss prospect in baseball.

Sure, but in terms of trade value there are pieces that can be considered closer to can't miss than others

diehardRLsoxfan
02-03-2008, 04:12 PM
Sure, but in terms of trade value there are pieces that can be considered closer to can't miss than others

Ah twoshay my friend, very good point. Which is why sometimes "can't miss prospects" are better off being used to acquire major league talent.

EMachine10
02-03-2008, 04:15 PM
Ah twoshay my friend, very good point. Which is why sometimes "can't miss prospects" are better off being used to acquire major league talent.

touche :cool:

TheVulture
02-03-2008, 04:19 PM
I think the real question is does this team fit Nick Swisher?

LMAO - Swisher, the new Chuck Norris...

Let's not forget in this argument the sad, sad, SAD state of the Sox OF at the beginning of this off-season. You've got to be nuts not to like Swish on the south side.

TheVulture
02-03-2008, 04:21 PM
No such thing as a can't miss prospect in baseball.

I disagree. His name was Alex Rodriquez, aka Ken Griffey, Jr, amongst others.

TheVulture
02-03-2008, 04:27 PM
I've mostly been critical of Kenny's inactivity.

:?:You've got to be kidding, right?

soxfandy
02-03-2008, 06:56 PM
I disagree. His name was Alex Rodriquez, aka Ken Griffey, Jr, amongst others.

Yes those names are different stories and were pretty much untouchable in trades...i remember names such as joe borchard, jeremy reed, and brian anderson amongst our so called can't miss prospects.

If gio was that good there is no way that he would have been traded 3 times before even throwing a pitch in the majors. santos is good from what i hear, but once again he has never pitched at a level besides low a-ball. And well sweeney is a 4th outfielder at best!!

So yes we did give up some young prospects, but we did not acquire a 38 year old scrub that is on the backburner of their career. Instead we picked up a very good player that is in the prime of his career and has a very good contract. He is also going to be an instant fan favorite for the southside and he is great to have in the lockerroom. I really loved this move. If any of the players we gave up for swisher become studs then i say more power to oakland. I am very happy!!

munchman33
02-03-2008, 07:02 PM
:?:You've got to be kidding, right?

He was inactive until there was little left he could do. That's why he paid so much for Swisher. That's why a first basemen is our CF.

Craig Grebeck
02-03-2008, 07:13 PM
He was inactive until there was little left he could do. That's why he paid so much for Swisher. That's why a first basemen is our CF.
Swisher is a CF

voodoochile
02-03-2008, 07:18 PM
He was inactive until there was little left he could do. That's why he paid so much for Swisher. That's why a first basemen is our CF.

You know, Munch, I understand you have issues with the team and with the way KW has built this team, but if you want to be taken seriously, you really should stop making stuff up to make your argument look better.

Last year, Swisher spent more time in CF than at 1B for the A's and had 3 times as many AB as an OF as he did as a 1B.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=5937


Over the last 3 years, Swisher has had over twice as many AB as an OF as a 1B and has had an OPS 80 points higher as an OF than as a 1B over that period of time.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=7435&type=batting3

Argue the facts, fine, but if you are going to throw a bunch of meaningless, false bull**** out there to support it, you should get hammered for it.

munchman33
02-03-2008, 08:13 PM
You know, Munch, I understand you have issues with the team and with the way KW has built this team, but if you want to be taken seriously, you really should stop making stuff up to make your argument look better.

Last year, Swisher spent more time in CF than at 1B for the A's and had 3 times as many AB as an OF as he did as a 1B.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=5937


Over the last 3 years, Swisher has had over twice as many AB as an OF as a 1B and has had an OPS 80 points higher as an OF than as a 1B over that period of time.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=7435&type=batting3

Argue the facts, fine, but if you are going to throw a bunch of meaningless, false bull**** out there to support it, you should get hammered for it.

1B is his best defensive position. 1B and LF are the only two positions he's above average at. I'm not making things up. He played the outfield more out of necessity. That doesn't make him a good outfielder. Pablo Ozuna can play the outfield. So could Rob Mackowiak. But were either of them really outfielders? C'mon now.

I don't subscribe to the whole "he hits better when playing this position garbage." Even if it was true, I'd rather have him playing at the position he's a good defender at than one he's not.

voodoochile
02-03-2008, 09:13 PM
1B is his best defensive position. 1B and LF are the only two positions he's above average at. I'm not making things up. He played the outfield more out of necessity. That doesn't make him a good outfielder. Pablo Ozuna can play the outfield. So could Rob Mackowiak. But were either of them really outfielders? C'mon now.

I don't subscribe to the whole "he hits better when playing this position garbage." Even if it was true, I'd rather have him playing at the position he's a good defender at than one he's not.

What a load. Every player will be a better defensive player at 1B than anywhere else on the field given practice time, because it's the easiest defensive position to play. Guess what, LF is the second easiest defensive position to play on the field, so again, every single decent player will play it better than the other OF positions. Quit talking out of your ass...:rolleyes:

How much tape have you actually seen on Swisher playing OF positions? Oh and the A's played him primarily in RF above all else and rarely played him in LF at all last season and their outfield is still WAY bigger than the one at USCF.

Like I said, quit making stuff up to support your position. Just admit it's a crappy position and walk away.

munchman33
02-03-2008, 09:18 PM
What a load. Every player will be a better defensive player at 1B than anywhere else on the field given practice time, because it's the easiest defensive position to play. Guess what, LF is the second easiest defensive position to play on the field, so again, every single decent player will play it better than the other OF positions. Quit talking out of your ass...:rolleyes:

How much tape have you actually seen on Swisher playing OF positions? Oh and the A's played him primarily in RF above all else and rarely played him in LF at all last season and their outfield is still WAY bigger than the one at USCF.

Like I said, quit making stuff up to support your position. Just admit it's a crappy position and walk away.

Voodoo, you couldn't be more wrong about Swisher's defense. He is not a great outfielder. He's good at first and left because he's not a good defender. He's a tweener guy that isn't great playing any position, but does some things good everywhere. You want to think I'm spouting off bull****, feel free. But I will expect an apology for saying I'm full of **** when you're clamoring to see Owens or BA manning center.

voodoochile
02-03-2008, 09:19 PM
Voodoo, you couldn't be more wrong about Swisher's defense. He is not a good outfielder. He's good at first and left because he's not a good defender. He's a tweener guy that isn't great playing any position, but does some things good everywhere. You want to think I'm spouting off bull****, feel free. But I will expect an apology for saying I'm full of **** when you're clamoring to see Owens or BA manning center.

I'll take my chances...

munchman33
02-03-2008, 09:20 PM
I'll take my chances...

:smile:

Daver
02-03-2008, 09:24 PM
Voodoo, you couldn't be more wrong about Swisher's defense. He is not a great outfielder. He's good at first and left because he's not a good defender. He's a tweener guy that isn't great playing any position, but does some things good everywhere. You want to think I'm spouting off bull****, feel free. But I will expect an apology for saying I'm full of **** when you're clamoring to see Owens or BA manning center.

If I really thought you knew your ass from third base, I'd argue this point, but the reality is I respect your opinion about as much as I respect the fact that my ass can chew gum.

jabrch
02-03-2008, 11:01 PM
I disagree. His name was Alex Rodriquez, aka Ken Griffey, Jr, amongst others.

There are others talked about in the same light as those two, who never made it anywhere close. Paul Wilson...Brien Taylor...Shawn Abner...Matt Anderson...there are many more.

Hendu
02-04-2008, 12:09 AM
No such thing as a can't miss prospect in baseball.

For the most part, but there are prospect who are ready to step in right now and contribute that I would consider blue chip prospects. They have advanced and dominated throughout the minor league system.

DLS is at least 1, maybe 2 years away from MLB ready. A lot can happen in that time.

munchman33
02-04-2008, 12:14 AM
If I really thought you knew your ass from third base, I'd argue this point, but the reality is I respect your opinion about as much as I respect the fact that my ass can chew gum.

That's an amazing talent you have there.

FedEx227
02-04-2008, 12:15 AM
For the most part, but there are prospect who are ready to step in right now and contribute that I would consider blue chip prospects. They have advanced and dominated throughout the minor league system.

DLS is at least 1, maybe 2 years away from MLB ready. A lot can happen in that time.

Yeah blue chip and can't missers to me are guys that have tore up leagues and are just waiting for an opening, guys I would say are Jay Bruce and Homer Bailey (CIN) for example. These guys are as MLB-ready as you'll find and they are much different than a Single A pitcher.

WizardsofOzzie
02-04-2008, 12:10 PM
a very well based opinion- I like it a lot and agree completely

thank you for bringing up a legitament point unlike everyone else on here
:rolleyes:
It's amusing how the only legitimate points are one's that share your opinion. You're being an embarrassment to the Sox fan base as a whole and you should be ashamed to call yourself a Sox fan

diehardRLsoxfan
02-04-2008, 01:08 PM
Shoelessshaun.....is your last name actually Woo Woo?

KenBerryGrab
02-04-2008, 02:02 PM
Who can forget those can't-miss Sox who became such big stars: Scott Ruffcorn, James Baldwin, Kris Honel, Mike Caruso, Joel Skinner....

voodoochile
02-04-2008, 02:49 PM
:rolleyes:
It's amusing how the only legitimate points are one's that share your opinion. You're being an embarrassment to the Sox fan base as a whole and you should be ashamed to call yourself a Sox fan

Heck, I'm ashamed he calls himself a Sox fan...

jabrch
02-04-2008, 02:56 PM
Heck, I'm ashamed he calls himself a Sox fan...


He's a :dtroll:

BadBobbyJenks
02-11-2008, 12:38 AM
This thread rules.

I'm not sure what my favorite part was, but it probably had to be Shaun responding what centerfielders were available and traded and he came up with Kotsay, Bourne and Edmonds. That is hilarious! Fire Kenny Williams for net getting in line and trying to land Kotsay, Bourne and Edmonds who was given away.:rolleyes:


DLS looks like he has all the raw talent in the world to become a great pitcher.

But 5 star blue chip prospects are the likes of Jay Bruce, Phil Hughes, Clay Bucholz...etc
I think DLS can become a stud and he could also become a remember that kid with all that raw talent who never made it.
Munch your points on the season hinging on the rotation are valid, but you are acting like Kenny didn't address a ton of needs this offseason.
Bullpen Check
SS Check
a hitter with high obp check

In my mind we are a true leadoff hitter and one more stable pitcher away from being a serious contender. BUT Danks should continue to take steps forward and Gavin could find it (I have my doubts) and Contreras I really dont know what to expect.

At this time we are a .500 team that could make a 5-10 swing in either direction IMO.

I cant wait till Opening Day to see what this team is made of.

diehardRLsoxfan
02-11-2008, 11:29 PM
This thread rules.

I'm not sure what my favorite part was, but it probably had to be Shaun responding what centerfielders were available and traded and he came up with Kotsay, Bourne and Edmonds. That is hilarious! Fire Kenny Williams for net getting in line and trying to land Kotsay, Bourne and Edmonds who was given away.:rolleyes:


DLS looks like he has all the raw talent in the world to become a great pitcher.

But 5 star blue chip prospects are the likes of Jay Bruce, Phil Hughes, Clay Bucholz...etc
I think DLS can become a stud and he could also become a remember that kid with all that raw talent who never made it.
Munch your points on the season hinging on the rotation are valid, but you are acting like Kenny didn't address a ton of needs this offseason.
Bullpen Check
SS Check
a hitter with high obp check

In my mind we are a true leadoff hitter and one more stable pitcher away from being a serious contender. BUT Danks should continue to take steps forward and Gavin could find it (I have my doubts) and Contreras I really dont know what to expect.

At this time we are a .500 team that could make a 5-10 swing in either direction IMO.

I cant wait till Opening Day to see what this team is made of.

Well put, I really feel that with one more proven starter we could be very god this year maybe even win the division if Detroit's pitching falters at all. However, it is going to be very hard for KW to accomplish this given our current tradeable assets and the very thin market for starters.

RockJock07
02-12-2008, 06:24 PM
I love the swisher deal and others have said, he's a great fit for this team because he can do so much. With JD, Konerko, Thome and Swisher hitting together, there's no reason to think this team can't mash it's way to the playoffs.

As for the prospects, they are all just wildcards. I was a big fan of sweeney, I have friends that went to HS with him, but he didn't really set the world on fire here. If he had come up and played well, and stayed healthy, then he may still be here, you just don't know.

kitekrazy
02-13-2008, 11:08 AM
Oh, I'm sorry, he won't steal 20 bases a season... this is a joke right? Did we not just pick up a SS with Orlando Cabrera who can steal bases? Danny Richar, Jerry Owens, even Josh Fields can run a bit.

The Sox made a big jump in team speed. Hopefully Ozzie will take advantage of that.

JimRivera
02-16-2008, 02:05 AM
While listening to XM radio 175 , I heard Kevin Kennedy & Billy Ripken dissecting the most improved teams. LA Angels got some mention, but Detroit was their winner.
I have to agree. Miguel Cabrera at the hot corner, Edgar Renteria at ss, Dontrelle Willis on the mound vastly improve that team. Zamaya is hurt and needed shoulder surgery (moving boxes near San Diego fires).
Sheffield is back to DH. Pudge Rodriguez is still solid at catcher. Curtis Granderson is great in center. Polanco is great at keystone. Guillen will start most games at 1st. Mags is poised for another great year in right.
Only in left field they have no one who might make the All Star team.
Be afraid, be frightened.
Kennedy made them a co-fave as the best team in baseball, along with Boston.