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UMSox
01-26-2008, 05:18 PM
"I'm happy with what Kenny got, some young, energetic players who will go out there and try to be an Aaron Rowand type and add a lot of energy to the ballclub," Buehrle said.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080126-white-sox-chicago,1,6205423.story

Thought it was interesting in light of those "what do buehrle and dye think now that we haven't signed Player X????" threads from earlier in the offseason. Mark might be spouting the company line, but if he really was angry he could have just "no comment"ed it. It's also good to see that Mark is keeping up the Rowand Vigil too! AND ON THE THIRD SEASON HE SHALL RISE AGAIN...

FedEx227
01-26-2008, 05:29 PM
"I'm happy with what Kenny got, some young, energetic players who will go out there and try to be an Aaron Rowand type and add a lot of energy to the ballclub," Buehrle said.http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080126-white-sox-chicago,1,6205423.story

Thought it was interesting in light of those "what do buehrle and dye think now that we haven't signed Player X????" threads from earlier in the offseason. Mark might be spouting the company line, but if he really was angry he could have just "no comment"ed it. It's also good to see that Mark is keeping up the Rowand Vigil too! AND ON THE THIRD SEASON HE SHALL RISE AGAIN...

I pray for the day that a White Sox conversation about trading, signing or acquiring a player doesn't involve Aaron Rowand's name.

Soon enough... soon enough.

WhiteSox5187
01-26-2008, 05:51 PM
It was a bit of a backhanded compliment, of course MB is going to say "Oh I like the moves Kenny made" cuz anything else would read as "Buerhle is pissed at Kenny." But saying "Aaron Rowand type of player" or whatever suggests to me that he wanted to see Aaron back here. But, whatever. We didn't get him, and Buerhle knows that and I think everyone knows we're not done yet. I do think there is this sort of excited curiousity involved with everyone on the team. The new kids want to show what htey have and the vets are just so sickened with the way 2007 played out they're saying "Well, THAT'S not going to happen again." 2008 will be much better than 2007, we're clearly better now. The problem is so are the Tigers, whether or not we have enough to win the division will be determined on the field.

chisox77
01-26-2008, 07:18 PM
This Aaron Rowand obsession is amazing.

I really liked him when he was here. But I've also gotten over the fact that he is no longer with the team. But I admit, especially after getting Nick Swisher in that trade with the A's, that I posted kidding remarks (at least three or four times) pointing to a "Rowand" type player, or "channeling Rowand" or "looking like Rowand."

But to read that MB, no matter out of what context he was speaking, has used that analogy is almost scary, as much as it may be supportive of KW's moves.


:cool:

sullythered
01-26-2008, 07:22 PM
I loved having Rowand here, but I think Swish is gonna make a lot of people finally move on.

batmanZoSo
01-26-2008, 07:36 PM
Can we call him Swisher instead of the endearing "Swish"?

fquaye149
01-26-2008, 07:47 PM
To be fair, this is really the only kind of thing that Burly could say if he wasn't happy with the moves.

I liked the moves, but frankly, I don't think if I were Burly I would be very happy with the fact that he has as bad a defensive CF as he had the last couple years (at least when BA wasn't playing).

Who knows though

oeo
01-26-2008, 08:32 PM
Can we call him Swisher instead of the endearing "Swish"?

How about N-Swish?

In all seriousness, what's wrong with 'Swish?' He goes by it; his foundation is called "Swish's Wishes."

Frater Perdurabo
01-26-2008, 09:03 PM
Swisher can't be as bad as Mackowiak, and despite his hustle, Rowand was a LF playing CF.

FedEx227
01-26-2008, 10:01 PM
How about N-Swish?

In all seriousness, what's wrong with 'Swish?' He goes by it; his foundation is called "Swish's Wishes."

Yeah, I've been calling him "Swish" since he came into the league, no biggie. It's not as grating as N-Swish or something like that.

This Aaron Rowand obsession is amazing.

I really liked him when he was here. But I've also gotten over the fact that he is no longer with the team. But I admit, especially after getting Nick Swisher in that trade with the A's, that I posted kidding remarks (at least three or four times) pointing to a "Rowand" type player, or "channeling Rowand" or "looking like Rowand."

Sickening isn't it. He's well above "Poochie" status with White Sox fans. God I hope they can move on and actually enjoy Swisher for what he is and does, he's a hell of a player that eats "hustlers" like Aaron Rowand for breakfast.

nccwsfan
01-26-2008, 10:01 PM
I loved having Rowand here, but I think Swish is gonna make a lot of people finally move on.

More likely it's another name to hang on to in the future- "we used to have some classic grinders like Rowand and Swisher"...etc

Rowand will live on in White Sox folklore for generations.

Frontman
01-26-2008, 11:34 PM
I have kiddingly said Swisher is the 2nd coming of Rowand; but in a lot of ways, he is. He's popular with the team's fanbase (meaning the A's. A lot of Oakland fans sounded the way we did when the Thome/Rowand deal happened.) Greg Walker says that he approaches the game the same way Rowand did, with a bit of swagger.

Plus, I don't think Mark would ever step out on KW or the Sox organization; as he never has come across as a negative player. Unlike Garland, his comments about possibly being traded never came across bitter or with frustration.

gregory18n
01-27-2008, 03:57 AM
i'm the guy that was wondering if Buhrle & Dye were dissappointed after signing at a discount, & i'll stand by my original feelings on that subject. Having Swisher fall into Kennys lap helps alot. If we can land a legitamate starter and lead-off/running threat I'll be very happy with the off-season.

fozzy
01-27-2008, 04:36 AM
swisher didn't fall into our laps we paid a hefty (though prospects) price for him. i really think Buhrle wanted to remain a white sox thats why he re-signed. Dye would have been entering free agency coming off a bad year with decline skills so i don't know what type of offers he would have gotten. besides specific players kenny sold them on the fact he was going to do everything he could do to win another ring. i think both of them would agree the contract the angels signed hunter to is insane and the sox could not compete the package the tigers gave up for cabrera.

so what did kenny do? get
orlando cabrera
swisher
dotel
linebrink
quentin

and on the major league level only lost garland

so to me he improved his two weakest points...ss and bullpen. if dye and paulie dont go into horrible slumps like last year, if contreas holds up...and floyd and danks do the same this team has a chance

UMSox
01-27-2008, 05:07 AM
I'm thinking (or at least hoping) that the Rowand comment was more about MB missing having laid back, fun guys in the clubhouse. Swish swings a better stick than Aaron and he apparently plays a "grinderball" version of CF just like Aaron did (remember how the first thing he asked when he found out he'd been traded here was "are the walls padded?") and you have to think that a pitcher like MB would know that.

On the other hand we've heard nothing but bad things about the clubhouse atmosphere (merely professional, "tight") since opening day 2006 and I think even a major leaguer can be just as nostalgic about the happy go lucky times as you or me.

Side note: if Rowand really epitomizes the grinderball-purityofbaseball-commitmenttowinning-I'dlethimmarryBOTHmydaughters part of baseball, why did he chase the money to what looks like it'll be Baseball Hell on the Bay for the rest of his productive career? It's not like he didn't get perfectly reasonable offers from more competitive clubs.. Holy God: if SI can be trusted the Giants are talking about batting Ray Ray at cleanup! http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/john_donovan/01/24/donovan.holes/index.html I honestly don't know what to say...

Side note II: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Rowand says that White Sox fans were "shocked and upset" that Rowand didn't take our offer, but it still needs a citation to support that statement. Do you think we need to pull a specific thread for support or will a general link to the Clubhouse suffice? :tongue:

Frontman
01-27-2008, 07:22 AM
I think both Mark and Jermaine's responses to the Hunter thing got blown out of proportion. It could of been as simple as Kenny telling Jermaine "the deal's done" then the Angels offering at the 11th hour; Jermaine calling Kenny going "what happened?"

Kenny tells the truth, JD (like the rest of us) was disappointed, but life moves on.

The days of players signing with a team because they love the city/team/legacy/whatever?

It just doesn't happen anymore. It now about the money and the security; no more, no less.

jabrch
01-27-2008, 10:47 AM
so what did kenny do? get
orlando cabrera
swisher
dotel
linebrink
quentin

and on the major league level only lost garland



Exactly...I don't think any GM has had a better offseason yet in terms of improving their club for 2008 than Kenny. Loads of time left too - I don't believe he is done.

viagracat
01-27-2008, 11:35 AM
I pray for the day that a White Sox conversation about trading, signing or acquiring a player doesn't involve Aaron Rowand's name.

Soon enough... soon enough.

That'll happen when Rowand retires. Maybe.

soxinem1
01-27-2008, 11:49 AM
That'll happen when Rowand retires. Maybe.

Nope, because the Rowand Fan Club will be touting him as a coach or manager then.

JB98
01-27-2008, 12:27 PM
To be fair, this is really the only kind of thing that Burly could say if he wasn't happy with the moves.

I liked the moves, but frankly, I don't think if I were Burly I would be very happy with the fact that he has as bad a defensive CF as he had the last couple years (at least when BA wasn't playing).

Who knows though

When Mark is right, he's getting a lot of ground balls. He doesn't need an elite defensive CF to win.

fquaye149
01-27-2008, 12:29 PM
When Mark is right, he's getting a lot of ground balls. He doesn't need an elite defensive CF to win.

:?:

No one said he "needs" one.

But Burly's not exactly Brandon Webb. He does give up his fair share of flyballs, even when he's on

JB98
01-27-2008, 12:33 PM
Swisher can't be as bad as Mackowiak, and despite his hustle, Rowand was a LF playing CF.

When Rowand first came up, he had the reputation of being an outstanding corner outfielder. That translated to him being very solid in CF. Not great, but solid. Right now, Carlos Quentin has the same reputation Rowand had six or seven years ago: He's a very strong defensive corner outfielder.

If Quentin's bat comes around, why not try him in CF? Maybe he could give us the same solid, but not spectacular, defense in CF that Rowand did. Ideally, Swisher is our LF. I think most of us would agree with that.

JB98
01-27-2008, 12:36 PM
:?:

No one said he "needs" one.

But Burly's not exactly Brandon Webb. He does give up his fair share of flyballs, even when he's on

If I were Mark, I think I would be more concerned about the defense at 2B and 3B than I would be about CF.

In general, I think the concern about the outfield defense is overblown here at WSI. That's Mackowiak's legacy. Everyone who is not Brian Anderson is compared to Mackowiak defensively, for whatever reason.

oeo
01-27-2008, 12:40 PM
I'm thinking (or at least hoping) that the Rowand comment was more about MB missing having laid back, fun guys in the clubhouse. Swish swings a better stick than Aaron and he apparently plays a "grinderball" version of CF just like Aaron did (remember how the first thing he asked when he found out he'd been traded here was "are the walls padded?") and you have to think that a pitcher like MB would know that.

Here's another quote from Buehrle on the 'issue'...either the Trib just asked the wrong question, or cut some crap out:
"I would be more disappointed if Kenny didn't try to do something," Buehrle said. "He offered them money and years, so it's not his fault guys aren't coming here. We added young players, with the potential to be the Aaron Rowand type, who can give energy to this ballclub."http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080126&content_id=2356688&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Doesn't sound like there's problem from that quote. Sounds like the Trib just trying to start crap, yet again.

sullythered
01-27-2008, 12:59 PM
Can we call him Swisher instead of the endearing "Swish"?
Well. it is the guy's nickname. It's a lot more like Sully or Smitty than A-Rod or J-Lo.

Oh, and the guy's personality is endearing too. Should we ignore that as well?

fquaye149
01-27-2008, 01:25 PM
If I were Mark, I think I would be more concerned about the defense at 2B and 3B than I would be about CF.

In general, I think the concern about the outfield defense is overblown here at WSI. That's Mackowiak's legacy. Everyone who is not Brian Anderson is compared to Mackowiak defensively, for whatever reason.

Swisher will be a below-average CF defensively, unless I'm hugely underestimating his familiarity with the position

Daver
01-27-2008, 01:35 PM
Swisher will be a below-average CF defensively, unless I'm hugely underestimating his familiarity with the position

You are.

fquaye149
01-27-2008, 01:41 PM
You are.

What's your take on Swisher in CF?

I've seen a number of scouts say he has good instincts in CF but I've also seen a number of others say he's not suited for CF, but rather the corner positions

asindc
01-27-2008, 01:47 PM
I think both Mark and Jermaine's responses to the Hunter thing got blown out of proportion. It could of been as simple as Kenny telling Jermaine "the deal's done" then the Angels offering at the 11th hour; Jermaine calling Kenny going "what happened?"

Kenny tells the truth, JD (like the rest of us) was disappointed, but life moves on.

The days of players signing with a team because they love the city/team/legacy/whatever?

It just doesn't happen anymore. It now about the money and the security; no more, no less.

My sentiments exactly. Way too much has been made of Buehrle and Dye being "disappointed." Hell, most of us were disappointed when Hunter did not sign with the Sox, but my disappointment quickly disappeared when I found out LAAAAAA gave of waay too much for him.

Daver
01-27-2008, 01:50 PM
What's your take on Swisher in CF?

I've seen a number of scouts say he has good instincts in CF but I've also seen a number of others say he's not suited for CF, but rather the corner positions

He won't be any worse than Rowand was out there, and he has a better arm.

jabrch
01-27-2008, 01:55 PM
He won't be any worse than Rowand was out there, and he has a better arm.

Sometimes I think you lay bait out like that for entertainment...

fquaye149
01-27-2008, 02:03 PM
He won't be any worse than Rowand was out there, and he has a better arm.

By 2005, Rowand had the advantage of having played a few seasons in CF at the MLB level....which may be why 2005 was a breakout defensive season for him.

Swisher played, what, 10 or so games at CF last year? And did he even play in the minors?

Daver
01-27-2008, 02:27 PM
By 2005, Rowand had the advantage of having played a few seasons in CF at the MLB level....which may be why 2005 was a breakout defensive season for him.

Swisher played, what, 10 or so games at CF last year? And did he even play in the minors?He's played a lot more than 10 games there, and CF in Oakland is harder to play.

JNS
01-27-2008, 02:41 PM
Swisher can't be as bad as Mackowiak, and despite his hustle, Rowand was a LF playing CF.

I agree. Ands although Swisher may not (I really don't think he is) a CF, he'll make folks for get about Rowand pretty quickly.

I get out to the bay area a lot, and try to catch the A's when I can - it's an awful football stadium, but day games there are nice.

I can testify that Swisher plays the game the way Rowand does, but he's also more articulate, and a better interview.

I promise he will be a fan favorite. I'm still pissed at Kenny, but I have no issue at all with his bringing Swisher here.

JNS
01-27-2008, 02:50 PM
He's played a lot more than 10 games there, and CF in Oakland is harder to play.

This is true - it's a huge, wide CF out there.

They are similar players in terms of style. I agree that Swisher has the better arm, and will have no problem crashing through walls, but I wonder if he has the speed that Rowand had in CF. He's a bigger guy, which doesn't mean he's slower, but my impression is that he is - not that Rowand was a sprinter or anything.

If Swisher does end up in CF - and I am hoping the Owens wins that gig because that gives us a leadoff guy as well - I think the question will be whether his fielding instincts are better than Rowand's.

Rowand's were not so great, but he made up for it with quickness, good second reactions, and reckless abandon. Swisher has the reckless abandon, so if he has good instincts, and studies what the ball does off of Sox pitchers various pitches in conjunction to the goofy cross-winds, 35 degree gusts off the lake in April and May, 100 degree SW gales in July and August, the way the wind bounces off of the "wall" of stands and pressbox/skyboxes behind the plate, etc., he could be OK out there.

I should add that I'll take Swisher at the plate over Rowand any day - better at-bats, fewer GB-DPs, more production, etc.

Iwritecode
01-28-2008, 09:55 AM
Side note II: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Rowand says that White Sox fans were "shocked and upset" that Rowand didn't take our offer, but it still needs a citation to support that statement. Do you think we need to pull a specific thread for support or will a general link to the Clubhouse suffice? :tongue:

IIRC, the Sox didn't even make an offer.

Grzegorz
01-28-2008, 01:18 PM
Sometimes I think you lay bait out like that for entertainment...

He is a hunter after all... :D:

UMSox
01-28-2008, 03:41 PM
IIRC, the Sox didn't even make an offer.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=mlb&id=3215028

Rowand agreed to a $60 million, five-year contract with the Giants. [Kenny] Williams said salary wasn't the issue; the fifth year was.

It doesn't say say in as many words "Kenny Williams offered him a contract", but if discussions came down to that level he almost certainly did.

balke
01-28-2008, 04:03 PM
I don't think Kenny wanted Rowand back. Not because he didn't fit well or wasn't liked or any of that, but its like admitting you're wrong in one way. It's also the same old show for the fans. Like, hey remember this guy you already paid to see? Well he's back!

That or maybe he knew he could get Swisher, and I'd take that over Rowand for now. I liked Rowand a lot when he was here, but I'd rather see something new. Maybe it'll breath new life into the team.

doublem23
01-28-2008, 04:07 PM
I don't think Kenny wanted Rowand back. Not because he didn't fit well or wasn't liked or any of that, but its like admitting you're wrong in one way. It's also the same old show for the fans. Like, hey remember this guy you already paid to see? Well he's back!

:dunno:

I guess... It's not like the Sox gave up on Rowand, they simply upgraded a position of weakness by dealing from what they thought was a position of strength. I don't think KW needs to admit to anyone that he, and the entire organization, overvalued Brian Anderson, but at the time, the Rowand-Thome deal was a good one for both teams, and I'd argue we probably still came out ahead in the end. Remember how bad the Sox played last year when Thome was on the DL? Imagine if that had been all year.

Iwritecode
01-28-2008, 04:10 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=mlb&id=3215028



It doesn't say say in as many words "Kenny Williams offered him a contract", but if discussions came down to that level he almost certainly did.

I read on here that Rowand was on the radio and flat out said that he never received an offer from the White Sox.

voodoochile
01-28-2008, 04:12 PM
I read on here that Rowand was on the radio and flat out said that he never received an offer from the White Sox.

One more reason to give KW a lifetime contract. Rowand is NOT worth the money he got from SF.

Iwritecode
01-28-2008, 04:14 PM
One more reason to give KW a lifetime contract. Rowand is NOT worth the money he got from SF.

Here it is. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1748922&postcount=3)

spawn
01-28-2008, 04:17 PM
Here's another quote from Buehrle on the 'issue'...either the Trib just asked the wrong question, or cut some crap out:

"I would be more disappointed if Kenny didn't try to do something," Buehrle said. "He offered them money and years, so it's not his fault guys aren't coming here. We added young players, with the potential to be the Aaron Rowand type, who can give energy to this ballclub."
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080126&content_id=2356688&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Doesn't sound like there's problem from that quote. Sounds like the Trib just trying to start crap, yet again.
That's almost word for word what I heard Buehrle say in an interview on ESPN on Friday. He basically said KW tried his best, and that it wasn't his fault Torii went for the higher paycheck, and that he was happy with the players that were acquired. He also said the biggest concern for the Sox is one that has been expressed here ad nauseum: Starting pitchng. When asked what happened last season, his answer was "we sucked." :redneck

RedPinStripes
01-28-2008, 05:55 PM
He won't be any worse than Rowand was out there, and he has a better arm.

You can't say that about the biggest grinder to ever wear a Sox uniform! His legacy will live on for years. He's the reason the Sox won the ring in 05 and the reason they won't get another.

Dammit I'm sick of hearing about how this team is hurting because he's gone.

Frontman
01-28-2008, 07:06 PM
I don't think Kenny wanted Rowand back. Not because he didn't fit well or wasn't liked or any of that, but its like admitting you're wrong in one way. It's also the same old show for the fans. Like, hey remember this guy you already paid to see? Well he's back!

Yeah, its unprecendented that the White Sox would ever bring a player back after he was traded to another team. (Pushes Harold Baines out of camera.) Nope. Nosiree. The Sox would NEVER bring someone back after he was moved. (Harold tries once again to be seen on camera.)

:wink:

oeo
01-28-2008, 10:10 PM
I don't think Kenny wanted Rowand back. Not because he didn't fit well or wasn't liked or any of that, but its like admitting you're wrong in one way. It's also the same old show for the fans. Like, hey remember this guy you already paid to see? Well he's back!

You're totally wrong. Kenny basically said at SoxFest (and I'm taking this from what was shown on SportsNite) that he didn't think Rowand was worth the money or years. I believe he compared the numbers to Paulie's contract...but he also said he wouldn't get into it because he would never say a bad thing about Rowand. In other words, Rowand isn't the player Paulie is, so there's no way he should be bringing in the same amount (or more).

Rowand didn't take what Kenny thought he was worth, that's why he's not with the Sox.

EDIT: BTW, since when is Kenny Williams afraid to admit when he's wrong? He's admitted that he ****ed up the bullpen last year. He will always take the hit when the team does not perform.

champagne030
01-28-2008, 10:19 PM
You can't say that about the biggest grinder to ever wear a Sox uniform! His legacy will live on for years. He's the reason the Sox won the ring in 05 and the reason they won't get another.

Dammit I'm sick of hearing about how this team is hurting because he's gone.

You should have seen Walker crying in his drink about not having Rowand when I talked to him in KC last year. I think Swisher will help what was hurting him that night........

KenBerryGrab
01-29-2008, 09:00 AM
Yeah, its unprecendented that the White Sox would ever bring a player back after he was traded to another team. (Pushes Harold Baines out of camera.) Nope. Nosiree. The Sox would NEVER bring someone back after he was moved. (Harold tries once again to be seen on camera.)

:wink:

Carl Everett is trying to get into the frame too.

balke
01-29-2008, 09:05 AM
You're totally wrong. Kenny basically said at SoxFest (and I'm taking this from what was shown on SportsNite) that he didn't think Rowand was worth the money or years. I believe he compared the numbers to Paulie's contract...but he also said he wouldn't get into it because he would never say a bad thing about Rowand. In other words, Rowand isn't the player Paulie is, so there's no way he should be bringing in the same amount (or more).

Rowand didn't take what Kenny thought he was worth, that's why he's not with the Sox.

EDIT: BTW, since when is Kenny Williams afraid to admit when he's wrong? He's admitted that he ****ed up the bullpen last year. He will always take the hit when the team does not perform.


Well I saw an interview with him this morning where he said he never thought Rowand would put up those kinds of #'s. He did say he would never say anything bad about him, but he then immediately said he wants players who are "Chicago tough". Not being tough enough is the excuse a lot when players are sent to other teams for KW. I don't ever buy it.

It doesn't really matter what reason he's not here, he's not here.

balke
01-29-2008, 09:06 AM
Yeah, its unprecendented that the White Sox would ever bring a player back after he was traded to another team. (Pushes Harold Baines out of camera.) Nope. Nosiree. The Sox would NEVER bring someone back after he was moved. (Harold tries once again to be seen on camera.)

:wink:

Did the same GM who let Baines go bring him back? And was that GM KW?

Frontman
01-29-2008, 09:34 AM
Did the same GM who let Baines go bring him back? And was that GM KW?

No.

But at the same time, does the name Gio Gonzalez ring a bell? He's gone, no wait, he's back, nope gone again.

My point is that players can and will bounce to and from a team. It isn't a mistake, is business.

Rowand, for all the lore, isn't a SuperStar. He's a solid end of the lineup hitter with some guts.

Now, hypothetical. If KW brought back Frank Thomas now; then THAT would be admitting a mistake. Even though medically Frank looked to be done after 2005, he's been a very solid player. If KW brought him back, it would be "Yeah, we made a mistake when we assessed Frank's medical status."

The idea is to make your team better. While Rowand's departure weakened the hitting out of CF, the defensive play was fine in 2006 when Anderson was out there, and we won't speak of the trainwreck known as 2007. I don't even think the Magic of Rowand could of made it better.