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Craig Grebeck
01-26-2008, 02:04 PM
Assuming Swisher plays CF and Dye is in RF - who plays LF?

I will take Quentin every day of the week and twice on Sunday. The kid needs ABs, he has done it all in the minors and has so much potential. I would honestly prefer Carlos in RF and Dye in LF, but life's not perfect.

Let Owens stay on the bench as a late inning pinch runner.

RedPinStripes
01-26-2008, 02:08 PM
Swisher is no CF. I'd rather see him in LF. Not sure on CF yet because we don't have a good one.

hi im skot
01-26-2008, 02:08 PM
I need to see Quentin in spring training before I make any sort of decision.

Jjav829
01-26-2008, 02:08 PM
Quentin is pretty much better than Owens in every way except speed. It should be Quentin, but Owens will likely be given the first shot because he's fast.

turners56
01-26-2008, 02:08 PM
If Quentin can hit 250 + and hit 20 homers, then him. If Owens can get a legitimate OBP and keep on stealing bases, then Jerry it is. Spring Training will settle this...

turners56
01-26-2008, 02:10 PM
Swisher is no CF. I'd rather see him in LF. Not sure on CF yet because we don't have a good one.

Owens has no arm (neither did Pods, but he was CF in Milwaukee) and Quentin is a corner outfielder, so I guess it has to be Swisher. Unless, Ozzie likes 100 foot throws to home plate.

oeo
01-26-2008, 02:10 PM
Quentin is pretty much better than Owens in every way except speed. It should be Quentin, but Owens will likely be given the first shot because he's fast.

Or because he's our best option in CF...

I bet Owens will get the job, and I don't mind it. But if it's not working in April, then a change needs to be made quickly. No time to sit around and see if Owens can improve, he needs to get off to a fast start or lose his job.

Jjav829
01-26-2008, 02:12 PM
Or because he's our best option in CF...

I bet Owens will get the job, and I don't mind it. But if it's not working in April, then a change needs to be made quickly. No time to sit around and see if Owens can improve, he needs to get off to a fast start or lose his job.

The question said "Assuming Swisher plays CF." :smile:

RedPinStripes
01-26-2008, 02:12 PM
Owens has no arm (neither did Pods, but he was CF in Milwaukee) and Quentin is a corner outfielder, so I guess it has to be Swisher. Unless, Ozzie likes 100 foot throws to home plate.



Sounds like a bad outfield to me.

oeo
01-26-2008, 02:13 PM
The question said "Assuming Swisher plays CF." :smile:

I know, but if Owens gets the job Swisher will be in LF.

turners56
01-26-2008, 02:17 PM
Sounds like a bad outfield to me.

How's Swisher's arm? We can deal with one crappy arm in the outfield.

Jjav829
01-26-2008, 02:18 PM
I know, but if Owens gets the job Swisher will be in LF.

Probably, but I was answering the question. If I'm choosing between the two in left, it's Quentin.

And depending on how Swisher plays in center, and given the fact that Owens isn't a great CF combined with the fact that Quentin is a very good defensive player, I'd probably still choose Swisher in center and Quentin in left even if considering Owens in center.

oeo
01-26-2008, 02:18 PM
Owens has no arm (neither did Pods, but he was CF in Milwaukee) and Quentin is a corner outfielder, so I guess it has to be Swisher. Unless, Ozzie likes 100 foot throws to home plate.



What the hell does the arm matter, if you don't even get to the ball and catch it in the first place (or get to it quickly). Owens is not a Gold Glover by any means, but he's not terrible out there. So you either take a hit in the arm, or the range. I'll take the hit in the arm any day of the week over a guy that's not going to track as much down.

Probably, but I was answering the question. If I'm choosing between the two in left, it's Quentin.

Well, I agree with that. Quentin and Owens will be fighting for a starting job, though, not necessarily LF.

And depending on how Swisher plays in center, and given the fact that Owens isn't a great CF combined with the fact that Quentin is a very good defensive player, I'd probably still choose Swisher in center and Quentin in left.Owens isn't 'great,' but he's better than Swisher. I think he's highly underrated defensively around these parts.

I like the idea of an Owens and Swisher combo, better, though. Taking a defensive hit in LF is a lot better than taking one in CF. And if everything works out, we can cut loose Thome next year, move Dye to DH, and put Quentin in RF.

Either way, though, it's a good situation to be in, rather than having Darin Erstad, Scott Podsednik, and Brian Anderson.

turners56
01-26-2008, 02:25 PM
What the hell does the arm matter, if you don't even get to the ball and catch it in the first place (or get to it quickly). Owens is not a Gold Glover by any means, but he's not terrible out there. So you either take a hit in the arm, or the range. I'll take the hit in the arm any day of the week over a guy that's not going to track as much down.

I think I want Aaron Rowand back now :p. Seriously, Not having a good arm can cost just as much as not being able to get to a hit in the gap. Because doubles are doubles, only the best of the best can go and get a ball in the gap that seems to be hopeless. You can stick anybody out there in center (like Rob Mackowiak xD) and have him catch can of corns and have that guy on 3rd think about coming home, rather than just goin, "pfft, this guy can't throw." Just how many times has Jerry Owens made amazing grabs in Center that would make you say..."oh dang, I can care less how bad his arm is now." I don't think he's at that point yet. I want Jerry to start, I like him as a speedster, but just don't put him in Center.

Jjav829
01-26-2008, 02:29 PM
Owens isn't 'great,' but he's better than Swisher. I think he's highly underrated defensively around these parts.

Either way, though, it's a good situation to be in, rather than having Darin Erstad, Scott Podsednik, and Brian Anderson.

I think Owens is a decent option in center defensively.

The best defensive LF of the three would be Quentin.

The best defensive CF of the three would be Owens.

Swisher is by far the best offensive player of the three, and obviously he'll be at one of the two positions. So it really comes down to whether Owens average-to-slight-above-average defense in center and speed on the bases outweighs Quentin's above-average-to-great defense in left and the ability to do everything other than run better than Owens.

I haven't seen enough of Swisher in center, but I did catch some of the A's games with him in center and I remember being somewhat surprised by how well he handled it. As long as he's not a liability out there, I think we're better off with Quentin in left.

sox1970
01-26-2008, 02:30 PM
When a lefty is on the mound, I want Thome on the bench, and have an outfield of Swisher-Owens-Quentin, with Dye as the DH.

But a Figgins or Crisp may still be coming here, so...

oeo
01-26-2008, 02:31 PM
I think I want Aaron Rowand back now :p. Seriously, Not having a good arm can cost just as much as not being able to get to a hit in the gap. Because doubles are doubles, only the best of the best can go and get a ball in the gap that seems to be hopeless. You can stick anybody out there in center (like Rob Mackowiak xD) and have him catch can of corns and have that guy on 3rd think about coming home, rather than just goin, "pfft, this guy can't throw." Just how many times has Jerry Owens made amazing grabs in Center that would make you say..."oh dang, I can care less how bad his arm is now." I don't think he's at that point yet. I want Jerry to start, I like him as a speedster, but just don't put him in Center.

Doubles can also turn into triples if you've got a guy out there that's not entirely comfortable.

BTW, Mackowiak didn't have a terrible arm.

And, Owens did make some pretty damn good grabs last year, which really impressed me. The biggest one that comes to mind is his game-saving catch in Boston. Manny crushed a ball off of Bukvich to deep center, and Owens came from nowhere and tracked it down, in a very tough CF that he had no experience in. I never thought Owens brought a very good glove, but he really impressed me a few times last year...hopefully that's something he can improve upon.

Also, I'm very excited to see what Jerry is going to bring this year in Spring Training. He really seems to have been working hard this offseason, and I love his 'I'm the leadoff hitter and centerfielder' attitude even though those titles are not formally his.

oeo
01-26-2008, 02:31 PM
But a Figgins or Crisp may still be coming here, so...

What does Figgins do? He's not a centerfielder, either. In fact, he's an infielder.

sox1970
01-26-2008, 02:33 PM
What does Figgins do? He's not a centerfielder, either. In fact, he's an infielder.

So the 244 games he's played in CF didn't happen?

I'm not saying he's ideal, but he's gotta be better than Swisher in center.

oeo
01-26-2008, 02:36 PM
So the 244 games he's played in CF didn't happen?

I'm not saying he's ideal, but he's gotta be better than Swisher in center.

I actually just had defense, and defense only, on the mind. But I'll take Figgins in CF. :tongue:

Frater Perdurabo
01-26-2008, 02:39 PM
I'd put Quentin in right.

Why?

To put Dye in left. Give him one game off each week to prevent nagging injuries that Dye tends to get, and give Fields that game in LF. This allows Crede to get 4 starts/week at 3B and Fields 2-3 starts/week at 3B, with Fields also starting at DH against LHP.

Tangential to this is moving Paulie to the Angels for a starting pitcher and a CF who can lead off (Willits/Figgins). Then, Swisher can play 1B and Willits/Figgins can play CF and lead off, allowing Owens and Anderson to be the 4th and 5th OFs.

sox1970
01-26-2008, 02:43 PM
I'd put Quentin in right.

Why?

To put Dye in left. Give him one game off each week to prevent nagging injuries that Dye tends to get, and give Fields that game in LF. This allows Crede to get 4 starts/week at 3B and Fields 2-3 starts/week at 3B, with Fields also starting at DH against LHP.

Tangential to this is moving Paulie to the Angels for a starting pitcher and a CF who can lead off (Willits/Figgins). Then, Swisher can play 1B and Willits/Figgins can play CF and lead off, allowing Owens and Anderson to be the 4th and 5th OFs.

Crede is getting traded. In fact Kenny Williams said today Crede and Fields won't be teammates this year, and Fields won't be traded. Do the math.

Frater Perdurabo
01-26-2008, 02:46 PM
Crede is getting traded. In fact Kenny Williams said today Crede and Fields won't be teammates this year, and Fields won't be traded. Do the math.

The question asked what we would do, not what we think KW/OG will do. Some of us can't travel 1,000 miles one way to get to SoxFest to get the latest on what KW said, or pick up Chicago radio stations from where we live. We can do without the "Do the math" snipe.

sox1970
01-26-2008, 02:48 PM
The question asked what we would do, not what we think KW/OG will do. Some of us can't travel 1,000 miles one way to get to SoxFest to get the latest on what KW said, or pick up Chicago radio stations from where we live. We can do without the "Do the math" snipe.

OK...listen when you have time.

http://www.670thescore.com/topic/play_window.php?audioType=Episode&audioId=1354497

munchman33
01-26-2008, 03:07 PM
Trading Dye solves this problem. Swisher belongs in left and Quentin belongs in right.

Maybe we could get a starter for him.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2008, 03:17 PM
Trading Dye solves this problem. Swisher belongs in left and Quentin belongs in right.

Maybe we could get a starter for him.
I think the absolute best move is to trade someone to open things up - but I'd honestly prefer to deal Paulie, seeing as his 10/5 rights are about to be granted and because I think you'd be selling Dye too low. I still believe in him after his very good second half last season.

I love Paulie, but the time is right.

Sosa/Sanchez/Lewis for Konerko/Crede?

We get salary off of our backs and acquire an overlooked outfielder in Fred Lewis who has played CF (and was damn good at it) in the minors. Jonathan Sanchez can be slotted into the 5 spot (or at least push Floyd and allow him to be kept as a long man) and Henry Sosa is an animal who has very good potential as a SP.

CF Lewis
SS Cabrera
1B Swisher
DH Thome
LF Dye
3B Fields
C Pierzynski
RF Quentin
2B Richar

munchman33
01-26-2008, 03:38 PM
I think the absolute best move is to trade someone to open things up - but I'd honestly prefer to deal Paulie, seeing as his 10/5 rights are about to be granted and because I think you'd be selling Dye too low. I still believe in him after his very good second half last season.

I love Paulie, but the time is right.

Sosa/Sanchez/Lewis for Konerko/Crede?

We get salary off of our backs and acquire an overlooked outfielder in Fred Lewis who has played CF (and was damn good at it) in the minors. Jonathan Sanchez can be slotted into the 5 spot (or at least push Floyd and allow him to be kept as a long man) and Henry Sosa is an animal who has very good potential as a SP.

CF Lewis
SS Cabrera
1B Swisher
DH Thome
LF Dye
3B Fields
C Pierzynski
RF Quentin
2B Richar

If we're looking to win this year, Paulie is a better bet to have a healthy, good season than Dye is.

voodoochile
01-26-2008, 03:44 PM
Probably, but I was answering the question. If I'm choosing between the two in left, it's Quentin.

And depending on how Swisher plays in center, and given the fact that Owens isn't a great CF combined with the fact that Quentin is a very good defensive player, I'd probably still choose Swisher in center and Quentin in left even if considering Owens in center.

Absolutely, at least in LF Owens' arm won't completely kill the team and his speed would allow Swisher to shade to RF slightly as he would have less ground to cover toward LF. Owens could shade toward LCF and still run down balls that are hit down the line.

voodoochile
01-26-2008, 03:48 PM
Why are people in such a rush to trade off big sticks from what looks like a very potent offense?

Cabrera
Swisher
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Fields
AJ
Quentin
Richar

If you are planning on trading off either of two very reasonably priced big bats, you'd better bring back a TON in return.

Don't **** with the lineup. IT'S NOT BROKEN!!!

Daver
01-26-2008, 04:04 PM
Absolutely, at least in LF Owens' arm won't completely kill the team and his speed would allow Swisher to shade to RF slightly as he would have less ground to cover toward LF. Owens could shade toward LCF and still run down balls that are hit down the line.

Speed does not = range.

voodoochile
01-26-2008, 04:09 PM
Speed does not = range.

Ah, but it helps...:D:

And yes, I agree that reading the bat off the ball is the single most important thing for an OF to be able to do in terms of covering ground. It's why BA stuck out so much as a defensive stud because he not only got great reads, but had above average speed.

Still, Owens' speed is so amazing he should be able to recover from most small mistakes and if he plays he'll cover enough ground to take off pressure from Swisher be that in LF or CF.

Is Quentin going to be ready for the season opener? If not Owens or BA will be an OF starter to begin the season.

TheOldRoman
01-26-2008, 04:12 PM
To put Dye in left. Give him one game off each week to prevent nagging injuries that Dye tends to get...
I agree. Dye has lost a lot defensively in the past three years. I have nightmares of him jogging after balls down the line and turning them into triples in 06. I think he would be a much better fit in left, but I don't think Ozzie would move him. It is a shame, because I don't think Jermaine would mind, being the unselfish player he is.

turners56
01-26-2008, 04:56 PM
Doubles can also turn into triples if you've got a guy out there that's not entirely comfortable.

BTW, Mackowiak didn't have a terrible arm.

And, Owens did make some pretty damn good grabs last year, which really impressed me. The biggest one that comes to mind is his game-saving catch in Boston. Manny crushed a ball off of Bukvich to deep center, and Owens came from nowhere and tracked it down, in a very tough CF that he had no experience in. I never thought Owens brought a very good glove, but he really impressed me a few times last year...hopefully that's something he can improve upon.

Also, I'm very excited to see what Jerry is going to bring this year in Spring Training. He really seems to have been working hard this offseason, and I love his 'I'm the leadoff hitter and centerfielder' attitude even though those titles are not formally his.

I wasn't inferring to Mackowiak as a bad thrower, I was trying to say he couldn't field when he was here. And yes, I like Jerry Owens too.

soxinem1
01-26-2008, 05:04 PM
Owens should be in CF, Swisher in LF.

Daver
01-26-2008, 05:08 PM
Owens should be in CF, Swisher in LF.

Why?

batmanZoSo
01-26-2008, 05:31 PM
Owens shouldn't be a starter on this team. He definitely shouldn't be the guy with 600+ at bats at the top of the lineup. Think about it: the most frequent guy faced by other teams is Jerry Owens.

I like speed and having a true leadoff type but not when you sacrifice not only overall hitting but defense as well.

nccwsfan
01-26-2008, 11:13 PM
Jerry Owens will be our starting CF, and Swisher will be our starting LF.

I've said it on several other posts, but I'm a big believer in Owens having a solid season in 2008. His OBP in 2007 from July-September was .340, which is only slightly below the .350 that most consider to be decent. His speed will be absolutely vital to the White Sox manufacturing runs- not only in stolen bases but running 1st to 3rd, 2nd to home, and 1st to home. With the lack of true speed in this lineup I'm amazed how so many WSI'ers don't see how valuable he can be with an additional 20 points in his OBP.

Regarding defense- OK his arm might be weak but it is compensated for by his speed, which allows him to have more range in the field, at least more than Quentin's or Swisher's.

I'm on the Jerry Owens bandwagon and am hoping that he can convert a lot of fans this year.

FedEx227
01-26-2008, 11:17 PM
Owens is a LF by virtue of his arm.

Whoever does better in ST gets the job, plain and simple to me. I'd rather see Quentin, but if Owens can find some amount of stroke I like his speed in the lineup, but you cannot sacrifice that arm in CF.

California Sox
01-26-2008, 11:41 PM
I think Owens is a decent option in center defensively.

The best defensive LF of the three would be Quentin.

The best defensive CF of the three would be Owens.

Swisher is by far the best offensive player of the three, and obviously he'll be at one of the two positions. So it really comes down to whether Owens average-to-slight-above-average defense in center and speed on the bases outweighs Quentin's above-average-to-great defense in left and the ability to do everything other than run better than Owens.

I haven't seen enough of Swisher in center, but I did catch some of the A's games with him in center and I remember being somewhat surprised by how well he handled it. As long as he's not a liability out there, I think we're better off with Quentin in left.

Don't underestimate Swisher as a defensive LF. The reason they thought they could move him to CF is he's a great LF. One of the best in the league.

Sufferin
01-27-2008, 12:16 AM
Why are so many people penciling Quentin in as a starter? WHy are you so excited about a .230 career hitter with 3 SB (and 2 CS) in 124 games? He may have alittle power, but whty would you think what htis team needs is another slow slugger? I put Quentin in the Richar category of "I don't get the excitement over someone who hasn't done a dang thing".

I'd rather have Owens (if he hits) with his speed in CF and on the bases he's very valuable. Plus I liked what I saw from him at the plate last year, he has a good choppy swing and knows what his game is-slap the ball, bunt at least every other game and create havoc wiht is speed. For all the talk about his low OBP he had 32 F'n steals last year. I don't know how many of those swipes were 3rd but basically in 93 games last year he had the equivalent of around 36 doubles (my inexact formula is 9 DB +(27 W + SB combos)), that's pretty damn good. You can't teach speed and while I hate watching weak armed CF's throw the ball to the pitcher's mound I could live with it. He'll track down more balls than anyone else and if he hits .270 he'll create more havoc than anyone else, which will raise the averages of everyone who hits with him on base. I have to give Owens the edge going into ST. Especially considering I don't think Swisher is a CF and should be in LF on opening day.

Just my $.02

oeo
01-27-2008, 12:27 AM
Why are so many people penciling Quentin in as a starter? WHy are you so excited about a .230 career hitter with 3 SB (and 2 CS) in 124 games? He may have alittle power, but whty would you think what htis team needs is another slow slugger? I put Quentin in the Richar category of "I don't get the excitement over someone who hasn't done a dang thing".

Because not everyone takes just statistics into account, like appears you are doing. Both Richar and Quentin appear to have very good futures. If you watch them play, and not just look at what their batting average is, or how many bases they've stolen, you can see that potential too.

voodoochile
01-27-2008, 12:35 AM
Because not everyone takes just statistics into account, like appears you are doing. Both Richar and Quentin appear to have very good futures. If you watch them play, and not just look at what their batting average is, or how many bases they've stolen, you can see that potential too.

Yeah, that and the whole KW spiel about acquiring "THE" Carlos Quentin. Add in the fact that Owens isn't that special in CF and Swisher is gonna put up 150-200 extra OPS points on the board over Owens and at least on paper it looks like those are the starters.

Sufferin
01-27-2008, 11:54 AM
I'll admit I don't think I've ever seen Quentin play, so what else am I to go off of other than stats? That would be why I asked why everyone is excited about him? Stats can be misleading, but I think the lack of stolen bases is pretty indicative that he's not gonna steal more than 15 tops. What we need is speed in this lineup, even with Cabrera. I think Owens can play, don't understand why everyone's so down on the guy. Is he perfect? No, but to me he could be Rudy Law part deux. What do you guys think is Quentins' upside? Are you telling me he's potentially going to hit .280 with 25 and 90 this year? That's about what it would take for me to play him with Swisher in center over the **** disturber I think Owens can be. I keep coming back to all those stolen bases Owens can get. The Sox need some diversity in the lineup. The station to station offense has killed them the last 2 years. I don't think Cabrera runs enough to give them that and I don't see that from Quentin (I just keep getting BA vibes from all the talk I hear about him) either.

I don't quite get while you're comparing Swisher to Owens, I thnk they both should be in the line up.

I know I'm in the minority on Owens, but why not give him a chance? How good was Ellsbury in 06 for the BoSox (I honestly don't know but he came through pretty well for them last year)? So what do you guys hope for from Quentin in 08?

soxinem1
01-27-2008, 12:11 PM
Why?

I believe Owens will be fine in CF. We had division winners with Rudy Law and Lance Johnson in CF, and neither of them had an arm that could throw out a chair.

Sure, Swisher may have a better arm, but from what I have seen, Owens covers far more ground, and that is what your CF needs to do.

If anything, I'd switch Dye to LF and put Swisher in RF.

Tragg
01-27-2008, 12:22 PM
I believe Owens will be fine in CF. We had division winners with Rudy Law and Lance Johnson in CF, and neither of them had an arm that could throw out a chair.

.
Ever team has a low point. You can't justify a weakness in CF (both offensively and defensively) just because another good team had that weakness. Those teams had some great strengths that this team doesn't have - for example, there is no Tim Raines leading off. Boston had weak-armed Damon in CF all those years - of course, he also checked in with a .370 OBP, hit a few homers, and they had other strengths this team doesn't have.
If we've gone through all of this, scrapped the farm club of its best prospects and 1/2 of the top 10, only to see the biggest weakness remain in the lineup, that would be a shame. We gave a top prospect, albeit undeveloped, prospect for Quentin. He needs to make this lineup.

SBSoxFan
01-27-2008, 12:31 PM
Crede is getting traded. In fact Kenny Williams said today Crede and Fields won't be teammates this year, and Fields won't be traded. Do the math.

(Crede & Fields) != teammates ----> Fields in AAA.

RowanDye
01-27-2008, 04:58 PM
Why are so many people penciling Quentin in as a starter? WHy are you so excited about a .230 career hitter with 3 SB (and 2 CS) in 124 games? He may have alittle power, but whty would you think what htis team needs is another slow slugger? I put Quentin in the Richar category of "I don't get the excitement over someone who hasn't done a dang thing".

I'd rather have Owens (if he hits) with his speed in CF and on the bases he's very valuable. Plus I liked what I saw from him at the plate last year, he has a good choppy swing and knows what his game is-slap the ball, bunt at least every other game and create havoc wiht is speed. For all the talk about his low OBP he had 32 F'n steals last year. I don't know how many of those swipes were 3rd but basically in 93 games last year he had the equivalent of around 36 doubles (my inexact formula is 9 DB +(27 W + SB combos)), that's pretty damn good. You can't teach speed and while I hate watching weak armed CF's throw the ball to the pitcher's mound I could live with it. He'll track down more balls than anyone else and if he hits .270 he'll create more havoc than anyone else, which will raise the averages of everyone who hits with him on base. I have to give Owens the edge going into ST. Especially considering I don't think Swisher is a CF and should be in LF on opening day.

Just my $.02

Quentin battled injuries all year in '07 (shoulder and hamstring) and was essentially a rookie, having only played in 57 games in '06.

By most accounts, Quentin would have been deemed "untouchable" a year or two ago in Arizona.

What's so special about him you might ask?

His minor league #'s (http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=11722) are pretty amazing, and being only 25 yrs. old there's still hope that he can stay healthy and translate some of that to the majors.

In four seasons in the minors (including "rehab" last year) he hit .313 with a .940 OPS. He hit .348 with a 1.004 OPS in AAA last year after Justin Upton took his spot following a trip to DL for the hamstring injury. Quentin has nothing left to prove in the minors.

With his high OBP and low strikeout potential, he's exactly the type of player the White Sox need. Add in that he is a good fielder with enough speed to take an extra base and you start to see the height of his ceiling.

A good year for Quentin would look a lot like Swisher, probably substituting some power for a higher average and OBP.

The "problem" then is that you have 3 corner OFs (Quentin, Swisher, and Dye) with potentially great bats and one quasi-CF (Owens) with a potentially average bat and great speed.

My ideal scenario is that Owens has a breakout season, hits .280 with a .350 OBP and 60 SB. That type of season would mandate a starting job, primarily in LF and hitting leadoff. Against tough LH-pitchers Swisher could leadoff and play RF, Owens could play CF, Quentin LF, and Dye DH.

The "problem" comes if Owens struggles at the plate. If he's not getting on base enough, it will strangle the offensive production to have a leadoff hitter producing so many outs. Owens splits from last year actually leading off an inning were really poor (.227 OBP), putting a bit of a damper on the "Jerry Owens second coming of Scott Podsednik first-inning pitcher-disrupter" argument.

If Owens can't cut it batting leadoff, Quentin is preferred anywhere else in the batting order and deserves the chance to show he can hit.

In this worst-case scenario, I think it's hard to even justify Owens place on team. With 3 starting corner OFs, I think the 4th OF position would first and foremost need to provide late-inning defensive support to Swisher in CF and spot starts in CF on the road in parks with spacious outfields (i.e. Detroit).

IMO Owens wouldn't provide what is needed from the 4th OF position, and since Ozzie has expressed the desire to carry 12 pitchers there won't be a 5th OF.

The offense will score a lot of runs no matter if we have a typical leadoff hitter or not. I just hope that in this scenario Ozzie wouldn't be too infatuated with Owens speed to pick run-saving defense (Anderson?) over pinch-running ability.

BTW: I voted Owens because a great year from him could have more impact than a great year from Quentin, and Quentin is still completely unproven.

MCHSoxFan
01-27-2008, 05:04 PM
Swisher is no CF. I'd rather see him in LF. Not sure on CF yet because we don't have a good one.

Okay. I will take Swisher in LF and Owens batting at the top. However, Owens needs a rest, Swisher plays CF and Carlos play LF. Not sure who leads off then. Richar? O-Cab?!?!

misty60481
01-27-2008, 05:07 PM
We are really starting to lower our standards, first we had Hunter, then Jones, then Rowand, now we are thinking of Owens ? I dont want to pay the prices they want for tickets to see AAA players. Lets get serious Owens is the bottom of the barrel.

Craig Grebeck
01-27-2008, 05:10 PM
Quentin's numbers in the minors are so much better than Jerry's that it's comical to even dispute his supremacy. Jerry's best OPS in the minors (24 years old in AA) was .799. Carlos' worst (23 year old in AAA) as .906.

Not to mention the fact that Carlos' first stint in the majors was wildly successful.

batmanZoSo
01-27-2008, 05:26 PM
Quentin can be the next Magglio only with a better eye. You gotta love those on-base numbers. Maybe a RH Bobby Abreu is a better comparison.

champagne030
01-27-2008, 06:37 PM
Quentin battled injuries all year in '07 (shoulder and hamstring) and was essentially a rookie, having only played in 57 games in '06.

By most accounts, Quentin would have been deemed "untouchable" a year or two ago in Arizona.

What's so special about him you might ask?


Carlos Quentin reminds me of Kevin McReynolds. That would be a pretty good trade if that happens.

sircaffey1
01-27-2008, 06:41 PM
This division is not going to be won with slightly better defense in CF especially when US Cellular has the smallest OF in the division. If Quentin is healthy, he's by far a better offensive player. We'll need offense out of all 3 OF spots if we are to compete with CLE and DET.

Jjav829
01-27-2008, 09:48 PM
If we've gone through all of this, scrapped the farm club of its best prospects and 1/2 of the top 10, only to see the biggest weakness remain in the lineup, that would be a shame. We gave a top prospect, albeit undeveloped, prospect for Quentin. He needs to make this lineup.

In 2005, Carlos Quentin was ranked the 22nd best prospect in all of baseball. In 2006, Quentin was ranked the 20th best prospect in all of baseball.

But God forbid, we gave up the great Chris Carter; he who has done well at Single-A. He's a sure fire star! If we gave up this guaranteed, sure-fire first-ballot Hall of Famer, then Carlos Quentin, who just 1 season ago was a top prospect (in all of baseball, not just his organization) himself, better be great. :rolleyes:

Corlose 15
01-27-2008, 11:08 PM
I'm not sure why we're debating this as an either or type of situation. Owens and Quentin are two different types of players. Quentin can be a great player, good power, athletic, good OBP and can be your everyday left fielder whereas Owens can be a great change of pace type player.

I'd like to see Quentin get the majority of the starts in left provided that Swisher can play an adequate CF but I'm sure with the way that Ozzie wants to move Swish around whether it be spelling Dye in right, Paulie at 1st or Thome at DH Owens is going to get his playing time and I don't think that's a bad thing.

Tragg
01-28-2008, 12:05 AM
In 2005, Carlos Quentin was ranked the 22nd best prospect in all of baseball. In 2006, Quentin was ranked the 20th best prospect in all of baseball.

But God forbid, we gave up the great Chris Carter; he who has done well at Single-A. He's a sure fire star! If we gave up this guaranteed, sure-fire first-ballot Hall of Famer, then Carlos Quentin, who just 1 season ago was a top prospect (in all of baseball, not just his organization) himself, better be great. :rolleyes:
Problem is, your "witty" (I'm still laughing) response has zero to do with the point I was making.
I didn't say it was a bad trade.

If he can't beat out Jerry Owens (absent some miraculous Owens transformation), then he isn't a top prospect in squat and the Sox used a prospect without helping the club. If we go into another year with a weak leadoff hitter and a poor centerfielder, then we used a lot of resources without addressing the real team weaknesses. THAT I what I wrote and THAT was my point.

On an unrelated note, why would Williams say that Crede and Fields won't be on the same team - what is gained by that statement? Doesn't it weaken one's trading position.

jabrch
01-28-2008, 12:11 AM
I'm eager to see them both do well. That would enable us to let Dye go and play Q in Right and JO leading off in LF.

Tragg
01-28-2008, 12:13 AM
I'm eager to see them both do well. That would enable us to let Dye go and play Q in Right and JO leading off in LF.
What do you mean by "let Dye go". We just signed him

Owens leading off would be bad, absent signficant improvement (like a 40 point improvement in obp or he suddenly learns how to drive the ball). Owens getting the most at bats on the team -ouch!

jabrch
01-28-2008, 12:33 AM
I know I'm in the minority on Owens, but why not give him a chance?

If Q isn't ready - there's no reason not to. If Q is ready, and Owens looks worthy in ST, then we are in a good position! Certainly it sets us up for 09 and on when Dye is gone.

guillen4life13
01-28-2008, 12:43 AM
There's an outfield logjam and it all comes down to the offensive dynamic the Sox try to go for more than anything if they perform to expectations. Quentin isn't guaranteed to be healthy for ST, right? So it will probably be Owens, especially if he can produce a .350+ OBP to go along with his base stealing ability. Homers not needed. It will be really tough if Quentin is healthy though, because he deserves to be playing every day for a major league squad--he has nothing left to prove in the minors.

From what I've seen with his minor league stats, he almost seems like he has Jon Olerud type of potential. Ideal cleanup hitter.

If everybody performs well, there's going to be a weak link that will get traded, and I really wouldn't want to be in KW's position (or Ozzie's!) if/when that happens.

California Sox
01-28-2008, 01:14 AM
I have a feeling this is all going to work itself out. Owens is a fourth outfielder type, but would stand to get a ton of playing time if the Sox don't carry a fifth outfielder. (And Ozzie follows what he said this week and only plays Ozuna in the infield.) Dye is unlikely to play more than 145 games. If Konerko takes a rest, Swisher is probably his backup. Plus, Dye and Quentin each hit right-handed, and Swisher is a better hitter from the right side. I predict the outfield will be Quentin, Swisher, and Dye but that Owens will still get 250+ ABs.

jabrch
01-28-2008, 01:18 AM
I predict the outfield will be Quentin, Swisher, and Dye but that Owens will still get 250+ ABs.

That's pretty sensible. I wouldn't mind that.

voodoochile
01-28-2008, 01:27 AM
I have a feeling this is all going to work itself out. Owens is a fourth outfielder type, but would stand to get a ton of playing time if the Sox don't carry a fifth outfielder. (And Ozzie follows what he said this week and only plays Ozuna in the infield.) Dye is unlikely to play more than 145 games. If Konerko takes a rest, Swisher is probably his backup. Plus, Dye and Quentin each hit right-handed, and Swisher is a better hitter from the right side. I predict the outfield will be Quentin, Swisher, and Dye but that Owens will still get 250+ ABs.

That sounds about right and don't discount Thome getting a bunch of time off against LHP this year. The Sox have a financial motivation to keep his plate appearances under a certain limit because once he hits that number, the $15M option for next year automatically vests. With Thome's declining ability to hit lefties, OG might be looking for an excuse to sit him a bit more and KW might actually insist on it. I have mixed feelings on the matter, because I think it's poor team management to bench one of your best players and team leaders because he struggles with one aspect of his game, but that might free up 200 DH AB this season alone and those AB will go to PK and Dye the way the team is currently configured with Swisher getting a "day off" as DH occasionally too.

I admit that's speculation, but it fits so well with the direction the team is going that I have a hard time believing we won't see it happen.

Nellie_Fox
01-28-2008, 01:29 AM
O-Cab?!?!Please, I'm begging you, stop it.:cuss:

guillen4life13
01-28-2008, 02:11 AM
That sounds about right and don't discount Thome getting a bunch of time off against LHP this year. The Sox have a financial motivation to keep his plate appearances under a certain limit because once he hits that number, the $15M option for next year automatically vests. With Thome's declining ability to hit lefties, OG might be looking for an excuse to sit him a bit more and KW might actually insist on it. I have mixed feelings on the matter, because I think it's poor team management to bench one of your best players and team leaders because he struggles with one aspect of his game, but that might free up 200 DH AB this season alone and those AB will go to PK and Dye the way the team is currently configured with Swisher getting a "day off" as DH occasionally too.

I admit that's speculation, but it fits so well with the direction the team is going that I have a hard time believing we won't see it happen.

I don't remember Thome's no trade status, but do you see him possibly getting traded sometime next season due to the above? As I see the Sox offense right now, there is a huge surplus of young players who need considerable playing time at the major league level. I see Thome, Konerko or Dye getting traded to make room for one of these guys and to bring a decent SP to the team if they show they're healthy and productive. In this way of thinking, the next generation White Sox offense could be following, give or take:

LF Owens
SS Cabrera
1B Swisher
DH - Konerko or fill in the blank.
RF Quentin
3B Fields
C Pierzynski
CF Ramirez
2B Richar

That lineup projects to a very well balanced, efficient offense. I hope the Sox are able to get a top-prospect caliber catcher either through the next draft or otherwise to groom as A.J.'s replacement.

This would also require a lot to go right.

Jjav829
01-28-2008, 07:28 AM
Problem is, your "witty" (I'm still laughing) response has zero to do with the point I was making.
I didn't say it was a bad trade.

So, you're saying I should scratch that one from my stand-up act? Noted.

If he can't beat out Jerry Owens (absent some miraculous Owens transformation), then he isn't a top prospect in squat and the Sox used a prospect without helping the club. If we go into another year with a weak leadoff hitter and a poor centerfielder, then we used a lot of resources without addressing the real team weaknesses. THAT I what I wrote and THAT was my point.I get your point. The problem is Chris Carter is no guaranteed star. He's a prospect, just like Quentin. The difference is Quentin has performed well for a longer time in the minors and at higher levels. In other words, on the "resource" scale, Quentin > than Carter. However, Quentin we will find out about this year, whereas we won't find out anything about Carter for another 2-3 years.

Sufferin
01-28-2008, 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCHSoxFan http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1780860#post1780860)
O-Cab?!?!

Please, I'm begging you, stop it.:cuss:

LOL I second that, there has to be a better nick name than that (like no nick name at all).

jabrch
01-28-2008, 10:56 AM
That sounds about right and don't discount Thome getting a bunch of time off against LHP this year. The Sox have a financial motivation to keep his plate appearances under a certain limit because once he hits that number, the $15M option for next year automatically vests. With Thome's declining ability to hit lefties, OG might be looking for an excuse to sit him a bit more and KW might actually insist on it. I have mixed feelings on the matter, because I think it's poor team management to bench one of your best players and team leaders because he struggles with one aspect of his game, but that might free up 200 DH AB this season alone and those AB will go to PK and Dye the way the team is currently configured with Swisher getting a "day off" as DH occasionally too.

I admit that's speculation, but it fits so well with the direction the team is going that I have a hard time believing we won't see it happen.


I don't think that is a bad idea at all. Thome has been so limited against tough LHP, and a few days off here and there can't hurt him.

And on those days, how cool is it to have Thome to come off the bench to PH in the 9th against a tough RH closer?

spiffie
01-28-2008, 11:01 AM
That sounds about right and don't discount Thome getting a bunch of time off against LHP this year...I have mixed feelings on the matter, because I think it's poor team management to bench one of your best players and team leaders because he struggles with one aspect of his game
Is it bad team management when the guy only has one aspect of his game? If Jim Thome can't hit LHP, then he is absolutely worthless in the game against them. He brings nothing else to the table except what he can do at the plate, and when he can't hit 200 against LHP, and slugs an anemic 350 against them there's nothing gained having him in the lineup, and it hurts the team to plug him in if there's a better option. Let him bat against RHP and be the Jim Thome he is still capable of being and the days off against LHP can only help him stay healthy for an entire year.

voodoochile
01-28-2008, 11:05 AM
I don't remember Thome's no trade status, but do you see him possibly getting traded sometime next season due to the above? As I see the Sox offense right now, there is a huge surplus of young players who need considerable playing time at the major league level. I see Thome, Konerko or Dye getting traded to make room for one of these guys and to bring a decent SP to the team if they show they're healthy and productive. In this way of thinking, the next generation White Sox offense could be following, give or take:

LF Owens
SS Cabrera
1B Swisher
DH - Konerko or fill in the blank.
RF Quentin
3B Fields
C Pierzynski
CF Ramirez
2B Richar

That lineup projects to a very well balanced, efficient offense. I hope the Sox are able to get a top-prospect caliber catcher either through the next draft or otherwise to groom as A.J.'s replacement.

This would also require a lot to go right.

Actually, I think Dye stays here and moves to DH with Swisher or Quentin manning the corner OF slots and Owens or Rameriz in CF (depends on the Cabrera extension and the development of these two players).

The only player I expect (and hope) to gets traded is Crede because I don't think he's in the Sox long term plans and because he'll bring a fair amount in return and because the Sox have Fields ready to step in. I don't see Thome bringing much because he's got that huge option for next year and because the only teams that might want him won't be willing to part with MLB ready players as they'll already be playoff contenders. The Sox would have to offer to pick up a bunch of next year's salary if the option vested as well as send the cash they got from Phillie this year. I also like the fact that our lineup is stacked this year and really don't want to see it torn down because the Sox might be one deadline deal for a SP from pennant contention.

In short, no, I don't expect either Dye or Thome to be traded this year.

voodoochile
01-28-2008, 11:10 AM
Is it bad team management when the guy only has one aspect of his game? If Jim Thome can't hit LHP, then he is absolutely worthless in the game against them. He brings nothing else to the table except what he can do at the plate, and when he can't hit 200 against LHP, and slugs an anemic 350 against them there's nothing gained having him in the lineup, and it hurts the team to plug him in if there's a better option. Let him bat against RHP and be the Jim Thome he is still capable of being and the days off against LHP can only help him stay healthy for an entire year.

My head agrees completely.

My heart disagrees because I think that's how the Thome and the other players will see it. I don't want "the Sox are screwing Jim out of his money" to even enter the the thinking this year for the team. It's a dangerous divisive concept and might really screw up the team chemistry. That's the part that worries me. Like it or not, it's still a business and it's still the Players Vs. Management. The idea is not to have those issues extend out onto the playing field. This issue has that potential.

spiffie
01-28-2008, 11:19 AM
My head agrees completely.

My heart disagrees because I think that's how the Thome and the other players will see it. I don't want "the Sox are screwing Jim out of his money" to even enter the the thinking this year for the team. It's a dangerous divisive concept and might really screw up the team chemistry. That's the part that worries me. Like it or not, it's still a business and it's still the Players Vs. Management. The idea is not to have those issues extend out onto the playing field. This issue has that potential.
Agreed, but on the the other hand the odds are he doesn't reach that number even without a platoon. The last 3 years he's only reached the 600 PA's needed to vest the option one time, and that was in 2006, and even then he just barely reached it.

I understand it would be something to be handled delicately, but the facts are the guy is going to be 38 this season and has back problems. I think it would be more of an issue if Thome were even just hitting decently against LHP, even just around his career 757 OPS against them. But it is hard to make a case unless you're the Windsock or his mini-me Couch that its all about money when he is coming off of a year with a 663 against them. I like to think the players are capable of recognizing the issue there, and hope that this is the sort of thing where Ozzie, who is supposed to be a great manager when it comes to handling the players and their mindsets, would be able to make that clear to them.

voodoochile
01-28-2008, 11:37 AM
Agreed, but on the the other hand the odds are he doesn't reach that number even without a platoon. The last 3 years he's only reached the 600 PA's needed to vest the option one time, and that was in 2006, and even then he just barely reached it.

I understand it would be something to be handled delicately, but the facts are the guy is going to be 38 this season and has back problems. I think it would be more of an issue if Thome were even just hitting decently against LHP, even just around his career 757 OPS against them. But it is hard to make a case unless you're the Windsock or his mini-me Couch that its all about money when he is coming off of a year with a 663 against them. I like to think the players are capable of recognizing the issue there, and hope that this is the sort of thing where Ozzie, who is supposed to be a great manager when it comes to handling the players and their mindsets, would be able to make that clear to them.

I don't think he needs 600 this year. I think the number was 1000 combined PA's in 2007-8. Last year he had 527 so he only needs 473 to vest it this season. That's as I recall the discussion here at WSI. If I'm wrong then I am sure someone will correct me.

spiffie
01-28-2008, 11:46 AM
I don't think he needs 600 this year. I think the number was 1000 combined PA's in 2007-8. Last year he had 527 so he only needs 473 to vest it this season. That's as I recall the discussion here at WSI. If I'm wrong then I am sure someone will correct me.
According to mlbcontracts he needs either 600 PA's in 2008 or 1100 combined PA's in 2007-2008. He had 536 PA's last year, so he does only need 564, not 600. That said he still would have to be healthier than he has been recently to get there.

guillen4life13
01-28-2008, 11:48 AM
According to mlbcontracts he needs either 600 PA's in 2008 or 1100 combined PA's in 2007-2008. He had 536 PA's last year, so he does only need 564, not 600. That said he still would have to be healthier than he has been recently to get there.

Marginally. It's going to be tough to keep him under 564 plate appearances on the season.

soxinem1
02-01-2008, 12:23 PM
Quentin battled injuries all year in '07 (shoulder and hamstring) and was essentially a rookie, having only played in 57 games in '06.

By most accounts, Quentin would have been deemed "untouchable" a year or two ago in Arizona.

What's so special about him you might ask?

His minor league #'s (http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=11722) are pretty amazing, and being only 25 yrs. old there's still hope that he can stay healthy and translate some of that to the majors.

In four seasons in the minors (including "rehab" last year) he hit .313 with a .940 OPS. He hit .348 with a 1.004 OPS in AAA last year after Justin Upton took his spot following a trip to DL for the hamstring injury. Quentin has nothing left to prove in the minors.

With his high OBP and low strikeout potential, he's exactly the type of player the White Sox need. Add in that he is a good fielder with enough speed to take an extra base and you start to see the height of his ceiling.

A good year for Quentin would look a lot like Swisher, probably substituting some power for a higher average and OBP.

The "problem" then is that you have 3 corner OFs (Quentin, Swisher, and Dye) with potentially great bats and one quasi-CF (Owens) with a potentially average bat and great speed.

My ideal scenario is that Owens has a breakout season, hits .280 with a .350 OBP and 60 SB. That type of season would mandate a starting job, primarily in LF and hitting leadoff. Against tough LH-pitchers Swisher could leadoff and play RF, Owens could play CF, Quentin LF, and Dye DH.

The "problem" comes if Owens struggles at the plate. If he's not getting on base enough, it will strangle the offensive production to have a leadoff hitter producing so many outs. Owens splits from last year actually leading off an inning were really poor (.227 OBP), putting a bit of a damper on the "Jerry Owens second coming of Scott Podsednik first-inning pitcher-disrupter" argument.

If Owens can't cut it batting leadoff, Quentin is preferred anywhere else in the batting order and deserves the chance to show he can hit.

In this worst-case scenario, I think it's hard to even justify Owens place on team. With 3 starting corner OFs, I think the 4th OF position would first and foremost need to provide late-inning defensive support to Swisher in CF and spot starts in CF on the road in parks with spacious outfields (i.e. Detroit).

IMO Owens wouldn't provide what is needed from the 4th OF position, and since Ozzie has expressed the desire to carry 12 pitchers there won't be a 5th OF.

The offense will score a lot of runs no matter if we have a typical leadoff hitter or not. I just hope that in this scenario Ozzie wouldn't be too infatuated with Owens speed to pick run-saving defense (Anderson?) over pinch-running ability.

BTW: I voted Owens because a great year from him could have more impact than a great year from Quentin, and Quentin is still completely unproven.

I remember in the 80's ATL had a hot shot future HOF OF that Hank Aaron said would be better than Dale Murphy.

His name was Brad Komminsk, who was as big of a minor league journeyman as anyone.

Until these guys put up in the major league level, making room for them off reputation is silly. I am all in favor of developing the younger players, but if the better option is Owens in CF batting lead-off, and Swisher in LF batting in the middle of the order, that is what should be done.

Craig Grebeck
02-01-2008, 01:38 PM
I remember in the 80's ATL had a hot shot future HOF OF that Hank Aaron said would be better than Dale Murphy.

His name was Brad Komminsk, who was as big of a minor league journeyman as anyone.

Until these guys put up in the major league level, making room for them off reputation is silly. I am all in favor of developing the younger players, but if the better option is Owens in CF batting lead-off, and Swisher in LF batting in the middle of the order, that is what should be done.
And until you give them opportunities at the major league level, they will not develop properly. Jesus Christ, do minor leagues really mean so little that people want to play JERRY FREAKING OWENS over Carlos Quentin?

balke
02-01-2008, 02:01 PM
I like this poll cause maybe 10 people total on this site have actually seen Quentin play. How can you vote on something like this until you see them in Spring Training? Especially after Quentin's injury.

Taliesinrk
02-01-2008, 02:04 PM
I remember in the 80's ATL had a hot shot future HOF OF that Hank Aaron said would be better than Dale Murphy.

His name was Brad Komminsk, who was as big of a minor league journeyman as anyone.

Until these guys put up in the major league level, making room for them off reputation is silly. I am all in favor of developing the younger players, but if the better option is Owens in CF batting lead-off, and Swisher in LF batting in the middle of the order, that is what should be done.


+2

Taliesinrk
02-01-2008, 02:05 PM
I like this poll cause maybe 10 people total on this site have actually seen Quentin play. How can you vote on something like this until you see them in Spring Training? Especially after Quentin's injury.

We can go by the type of baseball he plays, and my understanding is that he is not a lead-off hitter. JO, has the potential to be.

jabrch
02-01-2008, 02:12 PM
Until we know how healthy Q is, and how much progress, if any, JO made off of his nice second half, I have no basis to have an informed opinion here.

Owens has an awesome year in AA in 05. Q had a few awesome years in the minors also. It is nice to have multiple good options with potential.

russ99
02-01-2008, 02:50 PM
I think the Sox will take their time with Quentin, waiting to bring him into spring games when they're sure he's healthy. Especially after how they got burned with Erstad and Pods' injuries last spring.

I'd expect Ramirez to play a lot this spring at multiple positions so the Sox see what they have, so he could surprise and claim a MLB spot, possibly even the CF job.

That said, after listening to what Ozzie and Kenny said the last 2 weeks, I think the opening day outfield will be: Swisher - LF, Owens - CF, Dye - RF.

Only an awful spring will keep Owens out of the leadoff spot to start things off. If he struggles a month into the season and/or if Quentin and Ramirez are hitting well, things will change. The best part about the outfield rebuild this offseason is that no one is locked into a position.

RedPinStripes
02-02-2008, 12:05 AM
Okay. I will take Swisher in LF and Owens batting at the top. However, Owens needs a rest, Swisher plays CF and Carlos play LF. Not sure who leads off then. Richar? O-Cab?!?!

:ozuna:
"What about me? I'm a grider"?


I have no idea what they're going to do. Dye is good, but getting old out there. Swisher is better than Pods in Lf and they don't have a legit CF and about 3 guys who will play there.

slavko
02-02-2008, 11:37 AM
What does it tell you? We are overwhelmingly in favor of someone we've likely never seen play to get the job. We've all seen Owens play and we don't want him out there. He gets bad reads and often fails to catch balls that he reaches. His arm is embarrassing. He can run. He hit a bit at year's end but that was embarrassing for a long time too. He's a nice kid, but lots of nice kids wind up in AAA. I'm looking for a dark horse as the 4th OF.