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View Full Version : Source: White Sox sign Dotel to two-year deal


kwkonsl
01-21-2008, 03:15 PM
Updated: January 21, 2008, 2:53 PM EST 6 comments RSS digg blog email print

The White Sox, looking to make another addition to their bullpen, have signed right-hander Octavio Dotel to a two-year, $11 million contract, according to a major-league source.

Dotel, 34, is the second major addition to the Whtie Sox relief corps this off-season. The Sox earlier signed right-hander Scott Linebrink for $19 million over four years.
Dotel split 2007 between the Royals and the Braves, going 2-1 with a 4.11 ERA and 11 saves in 33 appearances

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7703382
__________________

thomas35forever
01-21-2008, 03:20 PM
Woo-hoo! I have every reason to be excited about our setup guys this year. Having to go through those two before Jenks will be a difficult task for opposing lineups.:smile::D:

twsoxfan5
01-21-2008, 03:22 PM
I like this as well. I will take as many experienced arms as we can get.

SoxNation05
01-21-2008, 03:25 PM
Like another poster said his arm is not 34 years old because of the Tommy John surgery he had. If he stays healthy he will be one of the best set up men in the league. Time will only tell.

Foulke You
01-21-2008, 03:26 PM
I'm feeling much better about the back end of our bullpen these days. Dotel, Linebrink, Wasserman, and Thornton should help bridge that gap to Jenks. If MacDougal rebounds into '06 form, we could have a very strong bullpen next year.

SoxNation05
01-21-2008, 03:29 PM
I'm feeling much better about the back end of our bullpen these days. Dotel, Linebrink, Wasserman, and Thornton should help bridge that gap to Jenks. If MacDougal rebounds into '06 form, we could have a very strong bullpen next year.
Jenks
Dotel
Linebrink
Thorton
Logan (because we need another lefty)
Wasserman/Macdougal
and if they take a seventh pitcher Broadway?
It should be an intresting ST to see who makes the team.

Flight #24
01-21-2008, 03:34 PM
Jenks
Dotel
Linebrink
Thorton
Logan (because we need another lefty)
Wasserman/Macdougal
and if they take a seventh pitcher Broadway?
It should be an intresting ST to see who makes the team.
To me it'll be interesting to see what happens with Masset/Aardsma. I wouldn't be surprised if both make the team and they carry 7 guys because they want to try and get some value of out them in trade and to do that they need to get them functional. At least with 5 better guys they wouldn't be relying on them on a regular basis.

SoxNation05
01-21-2008, 03:34 PM
I'm feeling much better about the back end of our bullpen these days. Dotel, Linebrink, Wasserman, and Thornton should help bridge that gap to Jenks. If MacDougal rebounds into '06 form, we could have a very strong bullpen next year.
Also with Wasserman and Macdougal I think one of them does not make the team and if Macdougal stays with the team I like the insure if Dotel throws his arm out. So we won't have to bring up Dewon Day or sign another Ryan Bukvich. There shouldn't be any complaining as for at the begginning of the offseason everyone was complaining about the bullpen and we signed probably the two best non-closers on the market.

eriqjaffe
01-21-2008, 03:40 PM
SI.com says (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/wires/01/21/2010.ap.bba.white.sox.dotel.0184/)...

"Right-hander Octavio Dotel is in negotiations with the Chicago White Sox on a multiyear contract that could make him the club's closer."

:jenks:
"I beg your pardon?"

WhiteSox5187
01-21-2008, 03:42 PM
SI.com says (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/wires/01/21/2010.ap.bba.white.sox.dotel.0184/)...

"Right-hander Octavio Dotel is in negotiations with the Chicago White Sox on a multiyear contract that could make him the club's closer."

:jenks:
"I beg your pardon?"
SI doesn't know anyone on the Sox roster for christ's sakes, so of course they assume he's going to be the closer.

I like this deal IF he stays healthy. And either way, it can't hurt, we have all this money left over from plan a, plan 1a and plan 9 from outter space, might as well use it on the bullpen.

Sockinchisox
01-21-2008, 03:45 PM
Gonzales is reporting it now, it'll be done within 24 hours.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/01/dotel-deal-near.html

Slats
01-21-2008, 03:45 PM
Solid pick up:Rocker:

soxinem1
01-21-2008, 03:49 PM
SI.com says (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/wires/01/21/2010.ap.bba.white.sox.dotel.0184/)...

"Right-hander Octavio Dotel is in negotiations with the Chicago White Sox on a multiyear contract that could make him the club's closer."

:jenks:
"I beg your pardon?"


CBS Sportsline and ESPN make these dumb statements all the time.

If anything, Jenks should be motovated, seeing two set up guys getting these contracts. Bobby may be worth $8 million when he becomes arbitration eligible.

Yeah, sure, we sign a guy who hasn't pitched a full season since 2004, make him the closer, and turn the closer with B2B 40 save seasons into a set up guy. I don't think so.

If this goes through, and if MacDougal gets his **** together, there is the potential to say WOW!

white sox bill
01-21-2008, 03:52 PM
IF he stays healthy and IF we can get Colon to a reasonable contract (like 1 and 1) I like what KW did. I feel a lot better about the releivers now

Sockinchisox
01-21-2008, 03:53 PM
CBS Sportsline and ESPN make these dumb statements all the time.

If anything, Jenks should be motovated, seeing two set up guys getting these contracts. Bobby may be worth $8 million when he becomes arbitration eligible.

Yeah, sure, we sign a guy who hasn't pitched a full season since 2004, make him the closer, and turn the closer with B2B 40 save seasons into a set up guy. I don't think so.

If this goes through, and if MacDougal gets his **** together, there is the potential to say WOW!

Or maybe turn the b2b 40 saves guy back into a starter

MeteorsSox4367
01-21-2008, 03:55 PM
If Dotel's healthy, this could be a solid pickup for the Sox. If anything, it means less opportunity to throw things at the TV after MacDougal walks the first two batters he faces after having both guys down 0-2.

I'm also eager to see what Wasserman can do with more chances to pitch. With his sidearm style, maybe he can be like Neshek for the Twins.

Bottom line - just give us a couple of guys to work the seventh and eighth and get us to Bobby in the ninth.

eriqjaffe
01-21-2008, 03:59 PM
SI doesn't know anyone on the Sox roster for christ's sakes, so of course they assume he's going to be the closer.Well, yeah, I don't doubt SI's cluelessness, but they even mention...

Bobby Jenks had 41 and 40 saves, respectively, in the past two seasons for Chicago....so who knows what they're smoking.

WhiteSox5187
01-21-2008, 04:03 PM
IF he stays healthy and IF we can get Colon to a reasonable contract (like 1 and 1) I like what KW did. I feel a lot better about the releivers now
Regardless of what happens with Colon I think this is a solid signing, we have a lot of money left over from the deals that didn't go down with Hunter and Rowand, so spend it on the part of the team that cost us literally eighteen games (the difference between ninety wins and ninety losses!). Signing Colon (assuming he wans a one year deal) would be the icing on the cake.

Foulke You
01-21-2008, 04:08 PM
Also with Wasserman and Macdougal I think one of them does not make the team and if Macdougal stays with the team I like the insure if Dotel throws his arm out. So we won't have to bring up Dewon Day or sign another Ryan Bukvich. There shouldn't be any complaining as for at the begginning of the offseason everyone was complaining about the bullpen and we signed probably the two best non-closers on the market.
I have a feeling both MacDougal and Wasserman will make the club next year. MacDougal's veteran status and his contract dictates that he'll probably make the club out of ST. Wasserman pitched well enough last year and was a bright spot in an otherwise awful pen in '07. I think he has earned his spot in the pen unless he falls on his face in ST.

turners56
01-21-2008, 04:08 PM
I guess he was the best reliever out on the market, but I'm not too thrilled that we might have him until he's 36. If we get one good year out of him I'm happy. A good reliever these days is very hard to find, paying 5.5 million annually is a good deal. Great to see KW basically solidify our horrible bullpen. Now all we need is a lead-off hitter and a starter and I think the Sox are set for the off season.

soxfan21
01-21-2008, 04:10 PM
I think that this is a solid pick-up. Hopefully though before the season starts we could add another starter to the rotation. It would be good to pick-up Colon but I don't think that he is worth a multiyear contract, but maybe we could get lucky, who knows.

KyWhiSoxFan
01-21-2008, 04:15 PM
SI.com says (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/wires/01/21/2010.ap.bba.white.sox.dotel.0184/)...

"Right-hander Octavio Dotel is in negotiations with the Chicago White Sox on a multiyear contract that could make him the club's closer."

Yeah, I'm sure KW is telling Dotel he'll make room for him as closer by sending Jenks down to AAA because he has options left.

turners56
01-21-2008, 04:16 PM
I think that this is a solid pick-up. Hopefully though before the season starts we could add another starter to the rotation. It would be good to pick-up Colon but I don't think that he is worth a multiyear contract, but maybe we could get lucky, who knows.


If Colon is throwing a high 80s, low 90s fastball, nobody would want him for the money he will be asking. That's literally like signing Freddy Garcia.

balke
01-21-2008, 04:23 PM
I didn't like the signing at first when it was leaked last week, but I gotta say if you look at the stretch he had last season, he could be very valuable. I'm hoping for pretty big things out of the bullpen this season.

Foulke You
01-21-2008, 04:25 PM
Logan (because we need another lefty)

I realize this is a tad off topic but I just hope that if we take up a bullpen spot with Logan that Ozzie finally realizes that Logan is ONLY effective against lefties. These splits are just ridiculous:

LOGAN
vs. lefties
2W-1L 2.35 E.R.A. 19 H 8 R 10 BB 22 SO 1 HR allowed .291 slg against .296 avg against

vs. righties
2W-1L 7.16 E.R.A. 40 H 22 R 10 BB 13 SO 6 HR allowed .571 slg against .397 avg against

It reminds me of when Manuel kept trotting Kelly Wunsch out there to face righties. I realize Ozzie's hands were tied last year with an awful bullpen but he needs to know that if he is taking Logan for '08, that he can only face left handed batters in key situations.

Jerko
01-21-2008, 04:25 PM
I'm not up to date on my Astro history, but didn't Lidge become their closer because Dotel sucked? Didn't Street beat him out in Oakland as a rookie? From what I remember of this guy, he blows. Hopefully I'm wrong but I'm not too excited about this.

RTI_SoxFan
01-21-2008, 04:27 PM
I didn't like the signing at first when it was leaked last week, but I gotta say if you look at the stretch he had last season, he could be very valuable. I'm hoping for pretty big things out of the bullpen this season.

Sure, the bullpen looks good on paper. It looked good on paper last year too!

I'm holding back judgement until the season starts.

oeo
01-21-2008, 04:29 PM
I'm not up to date on my Astro history, but didn't Lidge become their closer because Dotel sucked? Didn't Street beat him out in Oakland as a rookie? From what I remember of this guy, he blows. Hopefully I'm wrong but I'm not too excited about this.

Well, maybe you should go look at the stat sheet to refresh your memory. :dunno:

If Thornton and MacDougal bounce back, this will be a good bullpen. If Dotel stays healthy, this will be a great bullpen.

eriqjaffe
01-21-2008, 04:33 PM
I'm not up to date on my Astro history, but didn't Lidge become their closer because Dotel sucked? Didn't Street beat him out in Oakland as a rookie? From what I remember of this guy, he blows. Hopefully I'm wrong but I'm not too excited about this.If you believe SI's claim that Dotel could close for the Sox, you're out of your mind - I mean that in the best possible way, of course. ;)

Dotel's had his share of troubles closing out games - the only way Jenks will lose his job is due to injury or some sudden Koch-like ineffectiveness.

btrain929
01-21-2008, 04:39 PM
If you believe SI's claim that Dotel could close for the Sox, you're out of your mind - I mean that in the best possible way, of course. ;)

Dotel's had his share of troubles closing out games - the only way Jenks will lose his job is due to injury or some sudden Koch-like ineffectiveness.

Or if Jenks can't get locate his pitches through the 1st 2 months of the season when his fastball is only at 89-92 MPH.

Foulke You
01-21-2008, 04:41 PM
Or if he can't get locate his pitches through the 1st 2 months of the season when his fastball will be 89-92 MPH.
Uh...what? :?:

btrain929
01-21-2008, 04:44 PM
Uh...what? :?:

The only problem Jenks has every year is early in the year because his fastball isn't anywhere where it should be. It's usually in the low 90's, tops. I'm saying that's the only way Jenks' closing job would be in jeopardy, is if he gets rocked around early when his fastball isn't there.

Is there a better explanation for you?

Jerko
01-21-2008, 04:45 PM
In no way do i think Dotel can close, anywhere. He got traded from Houston in the middle of 04 because they had somebody better, and he got hurt in Oakland in 05, and the A's were better with Street anyway. This was 3 and 4 years ago, why is he so great now? Hopefully he still can get people out but we'll have to wait and see.

Navarro's Talent
01-21-2008, 04:48 PM
Hopefully, Dotel can stay healty. The Sox could have a very good bullpen if he's healthy and back to form. He did well enough in limited playing time last season, so I think this signing can be good.

Frontman
01-21-2008, 04:52 PM
First, I'll believe it when the Sox announce it; but when they do, I'll be happy.

I don't see him replacing Bobby, as Jenks has shown no signs of problems other than a cold start (which I think just about everyone in the Palehose had in 2007.)

Sounds like we have a solid bullpen, I'd love to see Colon if healthy in a Sox uniform; and with that, let's get the season underway. Even without a solid lead-off hitter, the team is coming together nicely.

Navarro's Talent
01-21-2008, 04:55 PM
I would assume that KW will want to announce this signing at Sox Fest.

MCHSoxFan
01-21-2008, 04:56 PM
HELL YEEEEESSSS!!! Now, how many times are we gonna hear this...

Now He Gawn!!! or Sox Win! Sox Win!

Once again, YEEEESSSSS!!! :D:

RedHeadPaleHoser
01-21-2008, 05:00 PM
Good news if this does filter down to reality. Seems like Coop's got a good problem on his hands with ST around the corner.

Lip Man 1
01-21-2008, 05:48 PM
RTI:

There were a lot of fans here at WSI who posted concerns about an untested bullpen before the start of the season. Particularly that few if any of the guys brought in had any real success at either the major or minor league level because of control issues and walks.

Lip

Foulke You
01-21-2008, 05:49 PM
The only problem Jenks has every year is early in the year because his fastball isn't anywhere where it should be. It's usually in the low 90's, tops. I'm saying that's the only way Jenks' closing job would be in jeopardy, is if he gets rocked around early when his fastball isn't there.

Is there a better explanation for you?
Now I understand you a bit better. I thought you had implied that Jenks was due for a massive decline in velocity next year just because he was a hard thrower for a couple years now. I do remember Jenks having some velocity issues in Spring Training last year but by April or May he was getting it back up around 95, 96mph. I'm not worried too much about Bobby though. He should be fine.

Foulke You
01-21-2008, 05:50 PM
HELL YEEEEESSSS!!! Now, how many times are we gonna hear this...

Now He Gawn!!! or Sox Win! Sox Win!

Once again, YEEEESSSSS!!! :D:
I already have a nickname in place for Octavio Dotel: "Doc Ock" :cool:

MCHSoxFan
01-21-2008, 05:55 PM
I already have a nickname in place for Octavio Dotel: "Doc Ock" :cool:

Yeah, and when he strikes somebody out you gotta say, Do Tell, Dotel! :smile:

thomas35forever
01-21-2008, 06:02 PM
Haven't the Sox stopped pursuing Colon? I thought I heard that somewhere.

SoxxoS
01-21-2008, 06:04 PM
This kind of mirrors the Flash Gordon signing of y'ore.

rdwj
01-21-2008, 06:14 PM
Nice move. The pen kept us from being competitive last year. I think KW has done a decent job rebuilding it.

champagne030
01-21-2008, 06:14 PM
Yeah, and when he strikes somebody out you gotta say, Do Tell, Dotel! :smile:

Odot :tsk:

Milkman43
01-21-2008, 06:18 PM
I've always liked Dotel. Way to go Kenny!

russ99
01-21-2008, 06:20 PM
I'm not up to date on my Astro history, but didn't Lidge become their closer because Dotel sucked? Didn't Street beat him out in Oakland as a rookie? From what I remember of this guy, he blows. Hopefully I'm wrong but I'm not too excited about this.

As I recall Lidge emerged before the Astros dealt Dotel as part of the Carlos Beltran trade. I think Dotel got hurt the season before, and then the Astros gave the closer job to Lidge in the spring.

He was always a better set-up guy than closer for the Astros.

I still think Linebrink is our set-up guy and Dotel replaces the MacDougal 7th inning role.

Both are solid late relievers and also good insurance in case Bobby gets hurt.

I think this signing is closer to the Hermanson one than the Gordon one since everyone knew Flash was done.

chisoxmike
01-21-2008, 06:23 PM
I'd rather have him than Aardsma or Sisco.

Let's hope he's healthy AND useful.

Jerko
01-21-2008, 06:28 PM
I'd rather have him than Aardsma or Sisco.

Let's hope he's healthy AND useful.

I can agree with this. Also, if he's the 7th inning guy, let him be the 7th inning guy, no LRLRLRLRL bull**** this year.

chisoxmike
01-21-2008, 06:32 PM
... no LRLRLRLRL bull**** this year.

Yeah really. Leave the hot hand in, Ozzie!

JB98
01-21-2008, 06:34 PM
The lead on the Associated Press story tonight claims Dotel will be the Sox closer.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AgZ5OHArhavz2g..INlkH54RvLYF?slug=ap-whitesox-dotel&prov=ap&type=lgns

LOL.

raven1
01-21-2008, 06:34 PM
By adding Linebrink & Dotel the bullpen should be great this year, but I'm afraid we're really going to need it with Contreras/Danks/Floyd slated for the rotation. If they blow up we might not even be in the game by the 7th inning, or we'll be seeing a lot of Masset or whoever wins the long relief slot before the 5th.

stacksedwards
01-21-2008, 06:34 PM
Kenny is quietly doing a very nice job this off season. I don't know if the three guys we traded for Swisher will become starts but I for one am a big fan of trading prospects for proven players. You never know what you are going to get with minor leaguers.
We needed bullpen help badly, Kenny went out and got who was out there which is all you can ask.
I have a feeling though he is not done. I think when all is said and done this off season Swisher will be at 1B and sadly Paulie will end up in either LA or Baltimore with us getting an outfielder and pitching in return.

stillz
01-21-2008, 06:37 PM
...we have all this money left over from plan a, plan 1a and plan 9 from outter space...

Hah!! :D:

voodoochile
01-21-2008, 06:38 PM
All this talk about Dotel being the closer from national media outlets who are covering the story makes me wonder if KW is shopping one of the other highly marketable commodities he has at his disposal, Bobby Jenks.

I hope not, but a package of Jenks, Crede and Danks/Floyd might be a great starting point to land another top 3 starting pitcher...

JB98
01-21-2008, 06:43 PM
All this talk about Dotel being the closer from national media outlets who are covering the story makes me wonder if KW is shopping one of the other highly marketable commodities he has at his disposal, Bobby Jenks.

I hope not, but a package of Jenks, Crede and Danks/Floyd might be a great starting point to land another top 3 starting pitcher...

Truthfully, I just don't think the national media realizes that Bobby Jenks is on our team. It's silly, considering that Jenks is among the better closers in the league. But there are a lot of ignorant folks in the press nowadays.

I wouldn't be too happy if KW moves Jenks. Even with the acquisitions of Linebrink and Dotel, Bobby is the only guy in our bullpen that I have full confidence in going into 2008.

veeter
01-21-2008, 06:47 PM
All this talk about Dotel being the closer from national media outlets who are covering the story makes me wonder if KW is shopping one of the other highly marketable commodities he has at his disposal, Bobby Jenks.

I hope not, but a package of Jenks, Crede and Danks/Floyd might be a great starting point to land another top 3 starting pitcher...With Kenny, expect the unexpected. But in this case, I say no way. Bobby is cheap at this point, and great. Kenny would be biting off his nose to spite his face. I just think like posters have said, Kenny has a lot of money at his disposal because of the free agent misses, and is going for it in another fashion. IMO, the right fashion, with pitching.

doublem23
01-21-2008, 06:47 PM
All this talk about Dotel being the closer from national media outlets who are covering the story makes me wonder if KW is shopping one of the other highly marketable commodities he has at his disposal, Bobby Jenks.

I think it's more a reflection on the national media's general ignorance about the White Sox.

http://www.tvguide.com/images/pgimg/sportscenter1.jpg
Octavio closed before, he could probably close for the White Sox.

I would be very surprised if KW moved Jenks; he's a fan favorite and was one of the few guys last year, on the team not just the bullpen, who was effective. I'm also for stockpiling bullpen arms, you can never have enough and I'm far more in favor of trying to squeeze 8 good pitchers into 7 slots, rather than trying to work 4 guys for a 7-man job. But, if it meant a front-line starter, rotation > bullpen. Always.

JB98
01-21-2008, 06:51 PM
I think it's more a reflection on the national media's general ignorance about the White Sox.

http://www.tvguide.com/images/pgimg/sportscenter1.jpg
Octavio closed before, he could probably close for the White Sox.

I would be very surprised if KW moved Jenks; he's a fan favorite and was one of the few guys last year, on the team not just the bullpen, who was effective. I'm also for stockpiling bullpen arms, you can never have enough and I'm far more in favor of trying to squeeze 8 good pitchers into 7 slots, rather than trying to work 4 guys for a 7-man job. But, if it meant a front-line starter, rotation > bullpen. Always.

After further review, it looks like all these national media outlets are just picking up the wire story. Whoever wrote the wire story is speculating that Dotel will close for the Sox. More than likely, it is BS and the rest of the reporting world just doesn't know enough to change it.

Such tripe will not be making tomorrow's Aurora Beacon News, however. :cool:

chisoxmike
01-21-2008, 06:51 PM
By adding Linebrink & Dotel the bullpen should be great this year...

Let's hold off on that.

btrain929
01-21-2008, 06:52 PM
I can agree with this. Also, if he's the 7th inning guy, let him be the 7th inning guy, no LRLRLRLRL bull**** this year.

I think sometimes that's good, but as long as you use the right guys for it. Wasserman vs Righties and Logan vs lefties to get you out of an inning = I'm fine with that. Maybe Macdougal too. Thornton can hold his own against both lefties and righties I believe. So in my opinion, that gives us 3 guys (Thornton, Dotel, Linebrink) that can pitch full innings before we get to the 9th, which is great to have, especially with the uncertainty of the back of our rotation.

But, for some reason, I don't think it's gonna be that easy.....:tongue:

veeter
01-21-2008, 06:52 PM
Kenny is quietly doing a very nice job this off season. I don't know if the three guys we traded for Swisher will become starts but I for one am a big fan of trading prospects for proven players. You never know what you are going to get with minor leaguers.
We needed bullpen help badly, Kenny went out and got who was out there which is all you can ask.
I have a feeling though he is not done. I think when all is said and done this off season Swisher will be at 1B and sadly Paulie will end up in either LA or Baltimore with us getting an outfielder and pitching in return.First of all, kudos on the Brad Muster pic., one of the coolest Bears of all time. But Paulie is not going to be traded. Anaheim doesn't need him and he'd block any trade to the O's. I agree Kenny's not done, but it will be with whomever he can fetch for Crede. Paulie is beloved by JR, which means a lot.

JB98
01-21-2008, 06:53 PM
Let's hold off on that.

I was thinking of starting a thread to ponder the question of whether this is the best bullpen in the history of baseball.

chisoxmike
01-21-2008, 06:54 PM
I was thinking of starting a thread to ponder the question of whether this is the best bullpen in the history of baseball.

That was a priceless and gross premature thread in WSI history.

voodoochile
01-21-2008, 06:55 PM
Truthfully, I just don't think the national media realizes that Bobby Jenks is on our team. It's silly, considering that Jenks is among the better closers in the league. But there are a lot of ignorant folks in the press nowadays.

I wouldn't be too happy if KW moves Jenks. Even with the acquisitions of Linebrink and Dotel, Bobby is the only guy in our bullpen that I have full confidence in going into 2008.

I'd believe that this might be a rumor started by the guy who broke the story or simply a miscommunication where KW told Dotel that he will get the chance to close games when Bobby gets a night off or in the event of an injury. The source heard, "Dotel will close (under the following circumstances)" and only listened to the first half. Then the rumor hit the ground running and next thing you know it's being relayed on ESPN and other "legitimate news sources". However, I would be shocked if the folks who error check the stuff that goes on the bottom line (for example) are unaware that the guy who tied the all time consecutive out record last year and closed out the WS 2+ years ago is on the Sox and what his role is.

That means to me that either it's a rumor run wild or Jenks is on the block.

turners56
01-21-2008, 06:55 PM
HELL YEEEEESSSS!!! Now, how many times are we gonna hear this...

Now He Gawn!!! or Sox Win! Sox Win!

Once again, YEEEESSSSS!!! :D:

Does that mean you expect him to close? :X.

veeter
01-21-2008, 06:56 PM
Let's hold off on that.I agree. Linebrink and Dotel are good signings because they're experienced. I still think Wasserman could out pitch them both.

doublem23
01-21-2008, 06:57 PM
I agree. Linebrink and Dotel are good signings because they're experienced. I still think Wasserman could out pitch them both.

That's fine, nothing wrong with getting too many arms and having the best man win the job. Better than last year's game of "Let's See Who Sucks Least Right Now!"

JB98
01-21-2008, 07:00 PM
That's fine, nothing wrong with getting too many arms and having the best man win the job. Better than last year's game of "Let's See Who Sucks Least Right Now!"

I agree. I mean, these veteran arms are risks, but at least they are veterans. We had too much youth in our bullpen last year. This season, we should have a better mix of young guys and vets.

veeter
01-21-2008, 07:01 PM
That's fine, nothing wrong with getting too many arms and having the best man win the job. Better than last year's game of "Let's See Who Sucks Least Right Now!"Right, this is just like last year, with the stock piling of arms. However, these are proven arms. I just see Wasserman in the mix because he's so damn creative. He would actually change his delivery from pitch to pitch, during an at-bat. He's very smart. His minor league numbers were, as the kids say, "sick".

YourPonyDied
01-21-2008, 07:06 PM
You cannot build a good bullpen.

Bullpens are made up of failed closers and failed starters and failed pitchers overall. To say adding Dotel for that much money makes your pen great is foolish because we won't know till the season begins. Who could honestly say in 05 Cotts and Politte would be stellar relievers that season.

Just like the issue with Wassermann, there is no reason to believe that the kid will be effective this season. Sure he has an odd delivery but so did Kelly Wunsch

JB98
01-21-2008, 07:07 PM
Right, this is just like last year, with the stock piling of arms. However, these are proven arms. I just see Wasserman in the mix because he's so damn creative. He would actually change his delivery from pitch to pitch, during an at-bat. He's very smart. His minor league numbers were, as the kids say, "sick".

I think Wassermann is going to be valuable as a situational reliever this year. The great thing about adding a couple vets is now we don't have to rely on Ehren too much. As an inexperienced pitcher, he might go through some struggles at times. When that happens, we can go to Linebrink or Dotel in pressure situations.

I just hope Ozzie doesn't "lefty-righty" us into the ground. Thornton has been on our club for two years now, and Ozzie still hasn't figured out that the natural movement on Matt's fastball is more effective against right-handed hitters than left-handers.

JB98
01-21-2008, 07:09 PM
Dotel to be used in a set-up role, per Scott Merkin.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080118&content_id=2350518&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

veeter
01-21-2008, 07:10 PM
You cannot build a good bullpen.

Bullpens are made up of failed closers and failed starters and failed pitchers overall. To say adding Dotel for that much money makes your pen great is foolish because we won't know till the season begins. Who could honestly say in 05 Cotts and Politte would be stellar relievers that season.

Just like the issue with Wassermann, there is no reason to believe that the kid will be effective this season. Sure he has an odd delivery but so did Kelly WunschKelly Wunsch was very good against lefties until injuries started to pile up. There is a reason to believe Wasserman will be effective, he was terrific last year for a large portion of the season.

Frontman
01-21-2008, 07:12 PM
You cannot build a good bullpen.

Bullpens are made up of failed closers and failed starters and failed pitchers overall. To say adding Dotel for that much money makes your pen great is foolish because we won't know till the season begins. Who could honestly say in 05 Cotts and Politte would be stellar relievers that season.

Just like the issue with Wassermann, there is no reason to believe that the kid will be effective this season. Sure he has an odd delivery but so did Kelly Wunsch

Yep, so Goose Gossage shouldn't be elected to the Hall, because what? He got lucky all those years?

You CAN build a good bullpen. It just takes time, skill, and a bit of luck to get the right pieces.

btrain929
01-21-2008, 07:12 PM
That's fine, nothing wrong with getting too many arms and having the best man win the job. Better than last year's game of "Let's See Who Sucks Least Right Now!"

Yep, that about sums up the 2007 White Sox right there.

In my eyes, we've upgraded the big league squad at:

SS (O.Cabrera)
CF (N.Swisher)
LF (the potential is there in Quentin. we just have to see if results follow)
Bullpen (Linebrink & Dotel)

Those all are serious, major upgrades in my opinion from what we had at those positions last year. I'm pretty sure those were all positions that fans said we had to target this offseason. In doing so, the only thing our big league squad had to give up was Garland. He's a solid #3, but he is, by no means, irreplaceable.

Thumbs up to KW :thumbsup:

raven1
01-21-2008, 07:13 PM
Dotel to be used in a set-up role, per Scott Merkin.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080118&content_id=2350518&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws
It's good that he stated the obvious, probably to specifically counter the other reports erroneously referring to him as a closer.

KyWhiSoxFan
01-21-2008, 07:18 PM
Yep, that about sums up the 2007 White Sox right there.

In my eyes, we've upgraded the big league squad at:

SS (O.Cabrera)
CF (N.Swisher)
LF (the potential is there in Quentin. we just have to see if results follow)
Bullpen (Linebrink & Dotel)

Those all are serious, major upgrades in my opinion from what we had at those positions last year. I'm pretty sure those were all positions that fans said we had to target this offseason. In doing so, the only thing our big league squad had to give up was Garland. He's a solid #3, but he is, by no means, irreplaceable.

Thumbs up to KW :thumbsup:

The Sox still need to find an experienced leadoff hitter and centerfielder. Hopefully they can find one person to do both. If they can plug that gaping hole, they definitely have improved the team from last year.

veeter
01-21-2008, 07:19 PM
It's good that he stated the obvious, probably to specifically counter the other reports erroneously referring to him as a closer.Always the voice of reason, Scott Merkin gets it right. Can't he write for one of the local rags?

BadBobbyJenks
01-21-2008, 07:19 PM
You cannot build a good bullpen.

Bullpens are made up of failed closers and failed starters and failed pitchers overall. To say adding Dotel for that much money makes your pen great is foolish because we won't know till the season begins. Who could honestly say in 05 Cotts and Politte would be stellar relievers that season.

Just like the issue with Wassermann, there is no reason to believe that the kid will be effective this season. Sure he has an odd delivery but so did Kelly Wunsch


Really you can not build a good bullpen? I did not know that. I thought that was the Angel's model this entire decade.

YourPonyDied
01-21-2008, 07:20 PM
Yep, so Goose Gossage shouldn't be elected to the Hall, because what? He got lucky all those years?

You CAN build a good bullpen. It just takes time, skill, and a bit of luck to get the right pieces.


Gossage is a closer, I am not discussing closers. I am discussing pen which primarily is middle relief and setup. But even closers are a crapshot at times, just look at Smoltz and Dempster. They were just thrown in there because they were known to be good pitchers but nothing was guarenteed

veeter
01-21-2008, 07:21 PM
Really you can not build a good bullpen? I did not know that. I thought that was the Angel's model this entire decade.No, just a group of failures.

btrain929
01-21-2008, 07:28 PM
We could probably start a new thread on it, but according to the article, someone has to be dropped from the 40 man roster (DFA?). Who do you guys think it will be? Will it be a guy like Aardsma that's out of options and is a longshot to make the team out of S.T? I just looked at the 40 man roster, and odds would seem to indicate that it would have to be a pitcher.

I think the most likely candidates are:
Aardsma
Day
Masset (no more options, but I still doubt he'll be chosen)
Sisco
Cole Armstrong/Donny Lucy? (doubt it)
*gulp* Brian Anderson? (highly doubt it, but it may be the best for both sides to trade him to another team, especially with young OF'ers like Swisher, Quentin, and probably Owens ahead of him).

BadBobbyJenks
01-21-2008, 07:30 PM
We could probably start a new thread on it, but according to the article, someone has to be dropped from the 40 man roster (DFA?). Who do you guys think it will be? Will it be a guy like Aardsma that's out of options and is a longshot to make the team out of S.T? I just looked at the 40 man roster, and odds would seem to indicate that it would have to be a pitcher.

I think the most likely candidates are:
Aardsma
Day
Masset (no more options, but I still doubt he'll be chosen)
Sisco
Cole Armstrong/Donny Lucy? (doubt it)
*gulp* Brian Anderson? (highly doubt it, but it may be the best for both sides to trade him to another team, especially with young OF'ers like Swisher, Quentin, and probably Owens ahead of him).

I would not lose any sleep over Aardsma or Donny Lucy.

JB98
01-21-2008, 07:31 PM
We could probably start a new thread on it, but according to the article, someone has to be dropped from the 40 man roster (DFA?). Who do you guys think it will be? Will it be a guy like Aardsma that's out of options and is a longshot to make the team out of S.T? I just looked at the 40 man roster, and odds would seem to indicate that it would have to be a pitcher.

I think the most likely candidates are:
Aardsma
Day
Masset (no more options, but I still doubt he'll be chosen)
Sisco
Cole Armstrong/Donny Lucy? (doubt it)
*gulp* Brian Anderson? (highly doubt it, but it may be the best for both sides to trade him to another team, especially with young OF'ers like Swisher, Quentin, and probably Owens ahead of him).

If I had to take a guess, it would be Aardsma or Day.

btrain929
01-21-2008, 07:31 PM
The Sox still need to find an experienced leadoff hitter and centerfielder. Hopefully they can find one person to do both. If they can plug that gaping hole, they definitely have improved the team from last year.

Only if that happens has the club improved from last year? :?:

KW got Swisher to play CF. We are done CF shopping. In my opinion, if the season started tomorrow, Cabrera is leading off, unless Quentin isn't ready for opening day, then it's Owens leading off in LF.

sox1970
01-21-2008, 07:32 PM
We could probably start a new thread on it, but according to the article, someone has to be dropped from the 40 man roster (DFA?). Who do you guys think it will be? Will it be a guy like Aardsma that's out of options and is a longshot to make the team out of S.T? I just looked at the 40 man roster, and odds would seem to indicate that it would have to be a pitcher.

I think the most likely candidates are:
Aardsma
Day
Masset (no more options, but I still doubt he'll be chosen)
Sisco
Cole Armstrong/Donny Lucy? (doubt it)
*gulp* Brian Anderson? (highly doubt it, but it may be the best for both sides to trade him to another team, especially with young OF'ers like Swisher, Quentin, and probably Owens ahead of him).

Technically, they don't have to make a roster move until Alexei Ramirez signs and is put on the 40-man. But I would say the four likely candidates would be Aardsma, Anderson, Oneli Perez, or Carlos Vasquez.

I'll go with Aardsma.

veeter
01-21-2008, 07:38 PM
Gossage is a closer, I am not discussing closers. I am discussing pen which primarily is middle relief and setup. But even closers are a crapshot at times, just look at Smoltz and Dempster. They were just thrown in there because they were known to be good pitchers but nothing was guarenteedYour argument is true, if you're talking about baseball before the 1970's. Back then the bullpen was made up of failing starters, trying to get right. But bullpens played a much smaller role than the specialist filled ones of today. Starters were expected to pitch seven or eight innings, if not the whole game, every start. But nowadays, bullpens better be built, or you're going to suck bad.

chisoxmike
01-21-2008, 07:50 PM
If I had to take a guess, it would be Aardsma or Day.

Isn't Day gone?

Brian26
01-21-2008, 07:50 PM
You cannot build a good bullpen.

Bullpens are made up of failed closers and failed starters and failed pitchers overall. To say adding Dotel for that much money makes your pen great is foolish because we won't know till the season begins. Who could honestly say in 05 Cotts and Politte would be stellar relievers that season.

Kenny had to do something because the bullpen last year, comprised mostly of Charlotte kids, was atrocious. The signing of Linebrink and Dotel is the surest way to try to solve the problem, and I give him credit for spending the money. This is good money spent.

diehardRLsoxfan
01-21-2008, 07:59 PM
Kenny had to do something because the bullpen last year, comprised mostly of Charlotte kids, was atrocious. The signing of Linebrink and Dotel is the surest way to try to solve the problem, and I give him credit for spending the money. This is good money spent.


I agree completely, I mean, could our bullpen get any worse? At least we didn't resign SHINGO....DONG!!:bandance:

TheOldRoman
01-21-2008, 08:07 PM
RTI:

There were a lot of fans here at WSI who posted concerns about an untested bullpen before the start of the season. Particularly that few if any of the guys brought in had any real success at either the major or minor league level because of control issues and walks.

Lip
Lip, I will give it to you. You had called for the past two years for Williams to bring in veteran bullpen pitchers, and now that he did, you are agreeing with it. You are consistent in your views.

Other people *****ed that KW didn't sign vets the last two years, then *****ed all offseason how the Sox were cheap, and now ***** that we overpaid for Linebrink and Dotel.:?:

TheOldRoman
01-21-2008, 08:13 PM
Truthfully, I just don't think the national media realizes that Bobby Jenks is on our team. It's silly, considering that Jenks is among the better closers in the league.
You clearly haven't heard of Kevin Gregg.:D:

Jjav829
01-21-2008, 08:16 PM
Well...ok....

That about sums up my reaction. He can be an effective reliever if he stays healthy. Obviously that is a pretty big "IF." I wouldn't go as far as to say he can be great. This isn't the Dotel of '02 or '03, but if healthy, a 3.90 ERA seems about right.

It seems like a worthwhile gamble for KW, especially given the train wreck that was last year's bullpen.

JB98
01-21-2008, 08:16 PM
Isn't Day gone?

No, he's still on the 40-man roster. He'll be 28 this year, and he's yet to show he can consistently throw strikes. I would consider him a strong candidate to be DFA in the wake of the Dotel signing.

JB98
01-21-2008, 08:17 PM
You clearly haven't heard of Kevin Gregg.:D:

LOL. I forgot about Jeremy Accardo too. :D:

Sox
01-21-2008, 08:18 PM
Not knowing too much about Dotel other than what I read, only time will tell with this guy. 4.11 ERA? I hope he can get that down and be a valuable part of the bullpen. I guess I will just take a wait and see attitude when the season starts before I make any final conclusions with this revamped bullpen.

sox1970
01-21-2008, 08:21 PM
No, he's still on the 40-man roster. He'll be 28 this year, and he's yet to show he can consistently throw strikes. I would consider him a strong candidate to be DFA in the wake of the Dotel signing.

Nah, I doubt that. They sent him to the Arizona Fall League. Usually not the place they send guys they intend to dump.

Bucky F. Dent
01-21-2008, 08:21 PM
In my eyes, we've upgraded the big league squad at:

SS (O.Cabrera)
CF (N.Swisher)
LF (the potential is there in Quentin. we just have to see if results follow)
Bullpen (Linebrink & Dotel)



I don't disagree that these are solid upgrades. What I still don't see on this roster is a lead-off hitter.

JB98
01-21-2008, 08:33 PM
Nah, I doubt that. They sent him to the Arizona Fall League. Usually not the place they send guys they intend to dump.

Then maybe Aardsma is the guy they intend to dump. I figure they'll dump a guy who is in his late 20s and hasn't shown much before they dump one of the kids.

btrain929
01-21-2008, 08:34 PM
Nah, I doubt that. They sent him to the Arizona Fall League. Usually not the place they send guys they intend to dump.

They could have sent him there to hope he gets his stuff together to build up trade value. If they DFA Day, they still have 10 days to trade him. If he has more than one suitor, then a trade is likely.

Like I said earlier, arguments can be made for a handful of people to be DFA. I personally would choose one of the minor league catchers (Lucy/Armstrong). No reason for a 3rd string catcher at best to hold onto a spot on the 40 man. We have 2 of them. I'll give Armstrong the benefit of the doubt since I've never seen him, and I think he was recently put on the 40 man. That leaves Lucy. He looked like a poor man's Chris Stewart.

Lip Man 1
01-21-2008, 08:41 PM
Without question this is a risk because of his past injuries but honestly (and this isn't a slap at Kenny) isn't this the M.O. of the White Sox for years?

Basically some risk for a potential high reward?

When was the last time the Sox secured a player or players at the top of their game without any real risk? (either via trade or free agency...)

To Pony, the reason Kenny had to make this move is because the bullpen has been bad to awful the past two seasons. There was a story in the newspapers last August I think where Ozzie made the comment along the lines that some of his veterans were asking what was going on with the bullpen.

Do nothing and if things fell apart early in the season there, you'd risk completely losing the vets, basically saying 'the hell with it...'

He had no choice in this matter in my opinion.

Lip

btrain929
01-21-2008, 08:50 PM
Without question this is a risk because of his past injuries but honestly (and this isn't a slap at Kenny) isn't this the M.O. of the White Sox for years?

Basically some risk for a potential high reward?

When was the last time the Sox secured a player or players at the top of their game without any real risk? (either via trade or free agency...)

To Pony, the reason Kenny had to make this move is because the bullpen has been bad to awful the past two seasons. There was a story in the newspapers last August I think where Ozzie made the comment along the lines that some of his veterans were asking what was going on with the bullpen.

Do nothing and if things fell apart early in the season there, you'd risk completely losing the vets, basically saying 'the hell with it...'

He had no choice in this matter in my opinion.

Lip

I think the argument can be made that the Swisher trading falls into that category. He's entering his prime, and under contract at a below market value. He's not coming off any injuries or has any flaws that would concern anyone (maybe a low batting avg, but that's offset by his high OBP).

Same can be said for Buehrle, but that wasn't thru FA/trade.

MCHSoxFan
01-21-2008, 08:56 PM
Not sure if this was already posted. I did not feel like re-reading this whole enitre thread:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/index.jsp?c_id=cws

Frater Perdurabo
01-21-2008, 09:02 PM
:tomatoaward

I like the signing. As others have posted KW has filled every hole with an improvement.

The only thing the Sox now lack is a bona fide leadoff hitter and one more veteran starter. I think if KW can fill those holes, or if Owens and Floyd can step up, then the Sox are a legitimate contender in the AL.

champagne030
01-21-2008, 09:17 PM
In my eyes, we've upgraded the big league squad at:

SS (O.Cabrera)
CF (N.Swisher)
LF (the potential is there in Quentin. we just have to see if results follow)
Bullpen (Linebrink & Dotel)



And we've downgraded defensively at:

CF
3B (assuming it's Fields)

And took a HUGE downgrade in the starting rotation.

We might be able to overcome the defensive holes on this team, but it would require a 2005 like rotation and that's not possible with this current roster.

WhiteSox5187
01-21-2008, 09:17 PM
Yep, that about sums up the 2007 White Sox right there.

In my eyes, we've upgraded the big league squad at:

SS (O.Cabrera)
CF (N.Swisher)
LF (the potential is there in Quentin. we just have to see if results follow)
Bullpen (Linebrink & Dotel)

Those all are serious, major upgrades in my opinion from what we had at those positions last year. I'm pretty sure those were all positions that fans said we had to target this offseason. In doing so, the only thing our big league squad had to give up was Garland. He's a solid #3, but he is, by no means, irreplaceable.

Thumbs up to KW :thumbsup:
I'll give you SS, CF, and bullpen...but I'm not so sure I would pen Quentin in there yet, he's still an awfully big question mark as far as I'm concerned, but LF is the least of my worries.

The only thing the Sox now lack is a bona fide leadoff hitter and one more veteran starter. I think if KW can fill those holes, or if Owens and Floyd can step up, then the Sox are a legitimate contender in the AL.
If we make those moves I think we'll certainly be a team that is in the running but as it stands right now I don't see how anyone couldn't pick the Tigers to win the AL Central...this also begs the question, why other veteran starters (outside of Colon) are available right now?

nccwsfan
01-21-2008, 09:17 PM
I don't disagree that these are solid upgrades. What I still don't see on this roster is a lead-off hitter.

The leadoff hitter for your 2008 Chicago White Sox...

http://www.rotoworld.com/images/headshots/MLB/4274.jpg

nccwsfan
01-21-2008, 09:19 PM
We could probably start a new thread on it, but according to the article, someone has to be dropped from the 40 man roster (DFA?). Who do you guys think it will be? Will it be a guy like Aardsma that's out of options and is a longshot to make the team out of S.T? I just looked at the 40 man roster, and odds would seem to indicate that it would have to be a pitcher.

I think the most likely candidates are:
Aardsma
Day
Masset (no more options, but I still doubt he'll be chosen)
Sisco
Cole Armstrong/Donny Lucy? (doubt it)
*gulp* Brian Anderson? (highly doubt it, but it may be the best for both sides to trade him to another team, especially with young OF'ers like Swisher, Quentin, and probably Owens ahead of him).

My guess will be Day- they'll give Aardsma one final shot in ST before giving him the heave ho...

WhiteSox5187
01-21-2008, 09:19 PM
And we've downgraded defensively at:

CF
3B (assuming it's Fields)

And took a HUGE downgrade in the starting rotation.

We might be able to overcome the defensive holes on this team, but it would require a 2005 like rotation and that's not possible with this current roster.
I don't think Swisher is a GREAT CFer but is he worse than Owens? I don't think so. Is he worse than an injured Darin Erstad? God no. Luis Terrero?

WhiteSox5187
01-21-2008, 09:21 PM
The leadoff hitter for your 2008 Chicago White Sox...

http://www.rotoworld.com/images/headshots/MLB/4274.jpg
:hawk
Where's he gonna play??

diehardRLsoxfan
01-21-2008, 09:25 PM
I feel like our bullpen is going to be one of the best in the league. Logan needs to be used as a left handed specialist. His numbers were good against left handers ( 221 BA against ). Thornton can be used more as a multi inning lefty if he gets his act together. Turns out he was actually better against righties last year. If Dotel and Linebrink can be somewhere in between their worst and their best they will be solid. Throw in wasserman to dominate righties and big Bobby (with mohawk) to end things out and I like our chances!

champagne030
01-21-2008, 09:37 PM
I don't think Swisher is a GREAT CFer but is he worse than Owens? Sadly, yes.

Is he worse than an injured Darin Erstad? God no. Luis Terrero?

I was talking defense. Swisher is far worse than all of those players defensively. Offensively, he blows those players away.....

chisoxmike
01-21-2008, 09:38 PM
The leadoff hitter for your 2008 Chicago White Sox...

http://www.rotoworld.com/images/headshots/MLB/4274.jpg

:ohno

btrain929
01-21-2008, 09:44 PM
And we've downgraded defensively at:

CF
3B (assuming it's Fields)

And took a HUGE downgrade in the starting rotation.

We might be able to overcome the defensive holes on this team, but it would require a 2005 like rotation and that's not possible with this current roster.

Going from Owens to Swisher is not a downgrade. And if for some reason we were to say it was, then we can keep Owens in CF, and Swisher to LF, and don't tell me Swisher is a downgrade in defense from Pods.

Plus, if we were comparing Fields defensively to the Crede of '05 and '06, of course it'd be a downgrade. but we're comparing him to the Crede of '08, and honestly we don't know how he will be defensively.

So, for the slight difference there might be in defense, I'm 99.99999% sure the added offense will more than compensate for it.

I won't speak much on the huge downgrade of Garland cuz I've never been a huge fan of him. 200 ip's is a great thing to depend on, but a pitch-to-contact, 4.5 era year in and year out isn't irreplaceable. Did it weaken our staff since we didn't add anyone to our rotation? Yes. Will it be the reason we won't make the playoffs in '08? No. We could have signed Livan Hernandez to be our #3-4 and gotten very similar results for a fraction of the cost. But, KW wants to see what he has in these young guns that he traded for. I can't blame him for that.

PeoriaSoxFan
01-21-2008, 09:53 PM
Right or wrong, you have to like the fact that Kenny is always doing something to try to win. The Swisher trade got me optimistic again and this signing should help some more. I still think we need another SP.

ShoelessJoeS
01-21-2008, 09:55 PM
Going into the offseason, I'm sure we can all agree that addressing the bullpen was KW's number one priority...and I must say he has done certainly that.

:thumbsup:

102605
01-21-2008, 10:17 PM
I love the Dotel signing.

Best case scenerio? We have the nastiest and best bullpen in MLB.

champagne030
01-21-2008, 10:18 PM
So, for the slight difference there might be in defense, I'm 99.99999% sure the added offense will more than compensate for it.

It's not a slight difference.

I won't speak much on the huge downgrade of Garland cuz I've never been a huge fan of him. 200 ip's is a great thing to depend on, but a pitch-to-contact, 4.5 era year in and year out isn't irreplaceable. Did it weaken our staff since we didn't add anyone to our rotation? Yes. Will it be the reason we won't make the playoffs in '08? No. We could have signed Livan Hernandez to be our #3-4 and gotten very similar results for a fraction of the cost. But, KW wants to see what he has in these young guns that he traded for. I can't blame him for that.

Livan? You cannot be serious? He cannot carry Garland's jock at this point. The fact we don't have a #3/4/5 starter is the very reason that I don't think we'll make the playoffs.......

JB98
01-21-2008, 10:27 PM
I'm not sure why people think Swisher's defense is horrible. I haven't really seen enough of him to make a firm call. We don't play Oakland that much. To me, he seems adequate in the outfield and pretty solid at 1B.

It isn't like CF at the Cell is real difficult to play. We don't have big power alleys, that's for sure.

JB98
01-21-2008, 10:28 PM
The leadoff hitter for your 2008 Chicago White Sox...

http://www.rotoworld.com/images/headshots/MLB/4274.jpg

I don't know why Swisher can't hit leadoff. His .380 OBP last year is pretty impressive. Far superior to what Owens would give us.

oeo
01-21-2008, 10:32 PM
And we've downgraded defensively at:

CF
3B (assuming it's Fields)

From 2007 to 2008, we really didn't downgrade either. Fields was our starting 3B for most of the year, and we had your pick of a declining Erstad, Jerry Owens, even Andy Gonzalez in CF.

As you mentioned, the starting pitching will make or break the season. I think Kenny did what he could in this one offseason to make the team as best as he could, though. There's only so much he could fix; this team had a lot of holes coming into the offseason. And who knows...he still might not be finished. :dunno: I thought he was done before the Swisher deal...now we have Swisher and Dotel. Another move could be coming.

jabrch
01-21-2008, 10:33 PM
I don't know why Swisher can't hit leadoff. His .380 OBP last year is pretty impressive. Far superior to what Owens would give us.

He can - but he's likely to be so much more productive hitting between PK and JD.

JB98
01-21-2008, 10:40 PM
He can - but he's likely to be so much more productive hitting between PK and JD.

But we need someone on base ahead of Thome. That was a big issue last year two outs, nobody on for Jimmy in the first inning every damn time. Thome, Konerko and Dye will knock 'em in if somebody gets on. I think we are in good shape in terms of RBI men. We need someone to set the table. I think Swisher can do it. He's as good a bet in that regard as anyone currently on this roster.

Optipessimism
01-21-2008, 10:40 PM
Without question this is a risk because of his past injuries but honestly (and this isn't a slap at Kenny) isn't this the M.O. of the White Sox for years?

Basically some risk for a potential high reward?

When was the last time the Sox secured a player or players at the top of their game without any real risk? (either via trade or free agency...)

To Pony, the reason Kenny had to make this move is because the bullpen has been bad to awful the past two seasons. There was a story in the newspapers last August I think where Ozzie made the comment along the lines that some of his veterans were asking what was going on with the bullpen.

Do nothing and if things fell apart early in the season there, you'd risk completely losing the vets, basically saying 'the hell with it...'

He had no choice in this matter in my opinion.

Lip

You make some good points, but there is a huge difference between the more traditional low risk/high reward moves of the past few years and a high risk/decent reward move like this one.

In the cases of the Aardsma, Sisco, and Jenks acquisitions for example, the Sox gave up nothing or virtually nothing for cheap pre-arb players with very high ceilings. The worst case scenario was they sucked and then could be waived without eating salary, and the best case was they became studs at the league minimum.

With Dotel, the Sox are paying $11 million guaranteed over two years to a set-up man who hasn't done anything really notable since 2004. The worst case scenario here is that Dotel gets injured again or gets shelled and we end up eating that contract because it is immovable. The best case scenario is that he's an awesome set-up man for us, but even if that happens, all it means is that he is worth the amount he's getting.

The only way I see a possibility of this signing being a bargain is if Dotel does a great job and the Sox end up trading him for a better player with a better contract. Since that probably won't happen there isn't any option for a bargain, so I wouldn't compare it to the low risk/high reward moves like trading for or claiming Jenks, Uribe, Floyd, Sisco, Aardsma, etc.

champagne030
01-21-2008, 10:42 PM
I'm not sure why people think Swisher's defense is horrible. I haven't really seen enough of him to make a firm call. We don't play Oakland that much. To me, he seems adequate in the outfield and pretty solid at 1B.

It isn't like CF at the Cell is real difficult to play. We don't have big power alleys, that's for sure.

Nice article in the paper today. :thumbsup:

That said, did you not see MackOWack in CF during 2006?

Swisher isn't that bad, but he's not much better. :(:

OEO:

We agree SP will make or break the 2008 Sox. I still think all of those castoffs are far better defensively (unfortunately) than Swisher in CF. Fields defense at 3B (during 2007) is not acceptable.

jabrch
01-21-2008, 10:43 PM
But we need someone on base ahead of Thome. That was a big issue last year two outs, nobody on for Jimmy in the first inning every damn time. Thome, Konerko and Dye will knock 'em in if somebody gets on. I think we are in good shape in terms of RBI men. We need someone to set the table. I think Swisher can do it. He's as good a bet in that regard as anyone currently on this roster.

That just feels like such a waste to me. Owens and Cabrera hitting ahead of the next four guys would see an awful lot of hittable pitches.

Bottom line - it really doesn't matter. The difference between hitting guys #1 and #6 is nominal over the course of a season. A few runs - that's it.

Tragg
01-21-2008, 10:44 PM
But we need someone on base ahead of Thome. That was a big issue last year — two outs, nobody on for Jimmy in the first inning every damn time. Thome, Konerko and Dye will knock 'em in if somebody gets on. I think we are in good shape in terms of RBI men. We need someone to set the table. I think Swisher can do it. He's as good a bet in that regard as anyone currently on this roster.
We need 2 guys on base ahead of Thome. (I would move Dye to the 3 hole, but that's a different issue).
The leadoff hitter doesn't just leadoff games - he'll leadoff more innings aside from that because he generally bats behind the hitter who makes the most outs.
Owens' ops was pitiful last year. Richar would be better than Owens. We make all these trades, give up all of our top prospects, so that Owens can play center? After all this - trade the top 2 prospects, 3 of the top 5 and 5 of the top 10 - and we don't even attempt to solve the CF and leadoff problem? That's not a plan -that's reacting. Hopefully, Swisher can play leadoff or cf or both (and if his defense is so bad, why give up so much for yet another bad defender?). And don't forget Quinten -we trade for him to sit on the bench? I hope not.

Dotel's okay - nothing great, about like Howry. Throws hard, which is Williams' primary qualification in a pitcher. Situational relievers- our 2005 bullpen didn't have situational relievers. Last year we had 2. Hopefully, the pen is strong enough to avoid them again.

Optipessimism
01-21-2008, 10:49 PM
From 2007 to 2008, we really didn't downgrade either. Fields was our starting 3B for most of the year, and we had your pick of a declining Erstad, Jerry Owens, even Andy Gonzalez in CF.

As you mentioned, the starting pitching will make or break the season. I think Kenny did what he could in this one offseason to make the team as best as he could, though. There's only so much he could fix; this team had a lot of holes coming into the offseason. And who knows...he still might not be finished. :dunno: I thought he was done before the Swisher deal...now we have Swisher and Dotel. Another move could be coming.
Andy Gonzalez played center? I must have blocked that from my memory (thank God).

I agree with you. We lose D at 3B, but how do we even know that Crede in '08 will be capable of playing third to the level we're used to? It's hard to say we lose anything at 3B until Crede has proven himself healthy and at least mostly through with his back issues.

In CF we don't lose anything from Owens to Swisher considering Owens doesn't have an arm. He gets on base better, doesn't have the speed, but he has a chance of doing some serious slugging at the Cell. Over Erstad, Swisher is a defensive downgrade, but the bat he brings as well as his health more than makes up for the downgrade there.

The starting pitching will determine where we rank at the end of the year. We have the offense and we have some guys in the back of the pen to get the job done, but if the starters do not produce lots of quality innings none of that is going to matter. They need to keep the offense in the game and they need to keep the bullpen fresh enough to be effective all year long.

JB98
01-21-2008, 10:59 PM
Nice article in the paper today. :thumbsup:

That said, did you not see MackOWack in CF during 2006?

Swisher isn't that bad, but he's not much better. :(:

OEO:

We agree SP will make or break the 2008 Sox. I still think all of those castoffs are far better defensively (unfortunately) than Swisher in CF. Fields defense at 3B (during 2007) is not acceptable.

Of course I saw Mackowiak in 2006. I don't think Swisher will be as bad as that. I actually saw him make a few good plays in the OF while he was with the A's.

Why not Quentin in CF? From all reports, he was an excellent corner OF. If he's excellent at the corners, he should be respectable in CF.

I just don't want to see Owens playing CF and batting leadoff just because he is a basestealer. There is more to batting leadoff than stealing bases. If a guy is on base four times out of 10, I don't give a damn if he never steals a base.

Christ, I sound like a FOBB right now, but I just don't like the idea of Jerry Owens getting the most at-bats of anybody on our team.

JB98
01-21-2008, 11:01 PM
We need 2 guys on base ahead of Thome. (I would move Dye to the 3 hole, but that's a different issue).
The leadoff hitter doesn't just leadoff games - he'll leadoff more innings aside from that because he generally bats behind the hitter who makes the most outs.
Owens' ops was pitiful last year. Richar would be better than Owens. We make all these trades, give up all of our top prospects, so that Owens can play center? After all this - trade the top 2 prospects, 3 of the top 5 and 5 of the top 10 - and we don't even attempt to solve the CF and leadoff problem? That's not a plan -that's reacting. Hopefully, Swisher can play leadoff or cf or both (and if his defense is so bad, why give up so much for yet another bad defender?). And don't forget Quinten -we trade for him to sit on the bench? I hope not.

Dotel's okay - nothing great, about like Howry. Throws hard, which is Williams' primary qualification in a pitcher. Situational relievers- our 2005 bullpen didn't have situational relievers. Last year we had 2. Hopefully, the pen is strong enough to avoid them again.

I'd be open to Dye hitting third as well. I just don't want to see Owens and Cabrera setting up Thome.

Swisher and Cabrera ahead of Thome = Good.
Swisher, Cabrera and Dye ahead of Thome = Better.
Owens and Cabrera ahead of Thome = I hope Cabrera gets a hit.

Tragg
01-21-2008, 11:02 PM
That just feels like such a waste to me. Owens and Cabrera hitting ahead of the next four guys would see an awful lot of hittable pitches.

Bottom line - it really doesn't matter. The difference between hitting guys #1 and #6 is nominal over the course of a season. A few runs - that's it.


The waste is going through all of this, trading so much, and not curing the greatest non-pitching weakeness -Owens leading off and playing CF. Don't forget - he had Fields and Thome protecting him last year....he's not getting that much protection this year.
Steals -okay, they are interesting to mess with pitchers' heads some; but really, with Thome, Konerko, Dye, and Swisher, getting them to 2nd isn't all that critical. And if I see a bunt in the 2 hole anytime except the bottom of the 9th in a tie game, I'm going to......

Tragg
01-21-2008, 11:07 PM
I'd be open to Dye hitting third as well. I just don't want to see Owens and Cabrera setting up Thome.

Swisher and Cabrera ahead of Thome = Good.
Swisher, Cabrera and Dye ahead of Thome = Better.
Owens and Cabrera ahead of Thome = I hope Cabrera gets a hit.
I like your Quinten in CF idea. Unless he stinks, he should be in the lineup. There's no one on the team that will give us really top notch d in CF, except for Anderson, and he'll be in AAA and then given away in t minus 11 months.
I'd still give Richar a look at leadoff - he'll have to improve a lot, but I'd like see what he can do with Cabrera and Thome behind him instead of Owens like he had last year. He has a touch of power too, which I like at leadoff.

Optipessimism
01-21-2008, 11:14 PM
Christ, I sound like a FOBB right now, but I just don't like the idea of Jerry Owens getting the most at-bats of anybody on our team.

Same here. I'd like to see Quentin get as many AB's as possible.

BTW, if Swish leads off, how many times do you think we'll see Ozzie use Cabrera to sacrifice? I bet a lot.

btrain929
01-21-2008, 11:16 PM
Same here. I'd like to see Quentin get as many AB's as possible.

BTW, if Swish leads off, how many times do you think we'll see Ozzie use Cabrera to sacrifice? I bet a lot.

I'd prefer hit-and-runs.

JB98
01-21-2008, 11:20 PM
I'd prefer hit-and-runs.

Totally agree. If Swisher bats leadoff, gets on base and Cabrera bunts him to second, they walk Thome intentionally and set up the DP situation with Konerko.

Cabrera doesn't have a high OBP, but he makes a ton of contact and he uses all fields.

I hate the bunt in the first inning. In the late innings of a tight game, it's good with certain hitters.

JB98
01-21-2008, 11:23 PM
I like your Quinten in CF idea. Unless he stinks, he should be in the lineup. There's no one on the team that will give us really top notch d in CF, except for Anderson, and he'll be in AAA and then given away in t minus 11 months.
I'd still give Richar a look at leadoff - he'll have to improve a lot, but I'd like see what he can do with Cabrera and Thome behind him instead of Owens like he had last year. He has a touch of power too, which I like at leadoff.

I'm not entirely sold on Quentin, but I believe he is more likely to pan out than Owens or BA. That said, I would give him every opportunity to earn a position. If we have an open competition among all these guys, somebody is bound to step up. Right?

Soxfanspcu11
01-21-2008, 11:34 PM
In my mind, this is a No-Lose type of situation.

If he comes in and simply can't cut it, then we can be rid of him and go in another direction.

If he can perform the way that he is capable of, that's a HUGE bonus.

I like what Kenny has done with the bullpen even before this deal. But this is a good deal. I have a good feeling that this is going to work well and I believe that Dotel will have a great year with the Sox!:gulp::supernana:

RowanDye
01-22-2008, 12:11 AM
Totally agree. If Swisher bats leadoff, gets on base and Cabrera bunts him to second, they walk Thome intentionally and set up the DP situation with Konerko.

Cabrera doesn't have a high OBP, but he makes a ton of contact and he uses all fields.

I hate the bunt in the first inning. In the late innings of a tight game, it's good with certain hitters.

This isn't necessarily directed specifically at you JB98. I'm just wondering why do people insist on rigidly adhering to a traditional lineup when the squad doesn't fit? Speed only works in combination with a decent OBP, which we don't have!

Here's my batting order:

Swisher
Thome
Cabrera
Fields
Konerko
Pierzynski
Dye
Richar
Owens/Quentin

With this lineup, there is a great chance of having Cabrera up to bat with a man on and less than two outs with a chance to move the guy over or get a hit.

Fields is protected by Konerko and Pierzynski protected by Dye.

Finally, if Quentin lives up to his "on-base machine" billing it would play very well into the hand of Swisher's 25-30 homers next year.

If Richar and Quentin put up decent numbers (+700 OPS for Richar, +750 OPS for Quentin), I think this lineup would have a good shot at scoring over 850 runs.


As far as CF goes, I think the situation depends a lot on Quentin's play in spring training. If Quentin shows that he can hit and play everday in LF, then I think we might be better served with a defensive specialist like Anderson as a 4th outfielder that can come in as a late inning defensive replacement.

I like Owens, but if he can't get on base enough to be a leadoff hitter then he is wasting a roster spot.

oeo
01-22-2008, 12:14 AM
Andy Gonzalez played center? I must have blocked that from my memory (thank God).

Yes, he was out there a few times. He actually played every position except catcher before playing his natural SS position.

oeo
01-22-2008, 12:22 AM
We agree SP will make or break the 2008 Sox. I still think all of those castoffs are far better defensively (unfortunately) than Swisher in CF. Fields defense at 3B (during 2007) is not acceptable.

Fields was getting better at the position. I don't understand how it's 'unacceptable.' Sure, he wasn't Crede, but he wasn't Andy Gonzalez either.

I agree he needs to improve, so hopefully he is really putting in time to work out the kinks (would be a good question to ask him at SoxFest). Saying it is unacceptable is a little harsh.

RowanDye
01-22-2008, 12:56 AM
Fields was getting better at the position. I don't understand how it's 'unacceptable.' Sure, he wasn't Crede, but he wasn't Andy Gonzalez either.

I agree he needs to improve, so hopefully he is really putting in time to work out the kinks (would be a good question to ask him at SoxFest). Saying it is unacceptable is a little harsh.

I think a better question is to ask Kenny Williams:

When your overtures to Crede's agent for a long-term contract extension were rebuffed, why didn't you immediately put an end to the "Josh Field's left-field experiment"?

cards press box
01-22-2008, 01:41 AM
From 2007 to 2008, we really didn't downgrade either. Fields was our starting 3B for most of the year, and we had your pick of a declining Erstad, Jerry Owens, even Andy Gonzalez in CF.

As you mentioned, the starting pitching will make or break the season. I think Kenny did what he could in this one offseason to make the team as best as he could, though. There's only so much he could fix; this team had a lot of holes coming into the offseason. And who knows...he still might not be finished. :dunno: I thought he was done before the Swisher deal...now we have Swisher and Dotel. Another move could be coming.

I like the Dotel signing and I agree that more deals could be coming. With Dotel and Linebrink in the Sox bullpen, I don't expect the Sox to add another righty reliever through a trade. If the Sox were inclined to move Crede, Uribe and MacDougal, they may seek to fill other needs, such as a CF/leadoff hitter, additional starting pitching or depth in the minor leagues. I almost hate to bring this up but if the inclusion of Scot Shields was, in fact, the deal breaker for any Sox/L.A. Angels trade, does the Dotel signing perhaps revive a possibility of a trade for Kendrick, Figgins, E. Santana and/or minor leaguers (but not Shields)?

Corlose 15
01-22-2008, 05:27 AM
And we've downgraded defensively at:

CF
3B (assuming it's Fields)

And took a HUGE downgrade in the starting rotation.

We might be able to overcome the defensive holes on this team, but it would require a 2005 like rotation and that's not possible with this current roster.

I'm not saying that its going to happen with this rotation but to say that its impossible seems a bit of a stretch. There were a lot of questions going into 2005 for the rotation. We felt good with Buehrle and Garcia but needed more from Garland, didn't know what we had in Contreras, and weren't sure that Hernandez was going to stay healthy, which he didn't.

Contreras, Danks, and Floyd all have the talent to be successful this season.

The Immigrant
01-22-2008, 06:57 AM
With Dotel, the Sox are paying $11 million guaranteed over two years to a set-up man who hasn't done anything really notable since 2004. The worst case scenario here is that Dotel gets injured again or gets shelled and we end up eating that contract because it is immovable.

Unless the Sox are asking you to cover a portion of that contract, why do you care how much is guaranteed to Dotel? MLB revenues have increased across the board and it is clear from KW's actions this offseason that the Sox are not hurting for cash. Really, why should I give a crap if the Sox end up eating the contract?

oeo
01-22-2008, 09:12 AM
I think a better question is to ask Kenny Williams:

When your overtures to Crede's agent for a long-term contract extension were rebuffed, why didn't you immediately put an end to the "Josh Field's left-field experiment"?

Why is that a good question? :?:

They didn't lose anything by having Fields play LF, so I don't understand what you're complaining about.

I feel for KW at SoxFest.

KyWhiSoxFan
01-22-2008, 10:31 AM
Fields was getting better at the position. I don't understand how it's 'unacceptable.' Sure, he wasn't Crede, but he wasn't Andy Gonzalez either.

I agree he needs to improve, so hopefully he is really putting in time to work out the kinks (would be a good question to ask him at SoxFest). Saying it is unacceptable is a little harsh.

After they saw Andy play at third, Fields sure looked good!

Actually, I thought Fields was okay at third, and he even made some really nice plays. But it will take him a year or so to really develop at the position. He's a good athlete and there is no reason to believe that with repetition and experience he can't be average or better than average fielder.

russ99
01-22-2008, 10:36 AM
I think it will be more along the lines of:

1. Owens - LF (Sox give him a shot at leadoff until Quentin's healthy. Also:Ozuna can lead off vs. Leftys, moving Owens to 9.)
2. Cabrera - SS
3. Swisher - CF
4. Dye - RF
5. Konerko - 1B
6. Thome - DH (Swisher's a better #3, and I'd like to see less of the Thome shift this year. Plus Paulie then has protection behind him.)
7 - Crede or Fields - 3B
8 - A.J. - C
9 - Richar - 2B

RowanDye
01-22-2008, 11:52 AM
Why is that a good question? :?:

They didn't lose anything by having Fields play LF, so I don't understand what you're complaining about.

I feel for KW at SoxFest.

It wasn't an attack on KW, I just don't understand his logic or explanations sometimes.

If KW's call to Boras was supposedly the writing-on-the-wall that Crede would not be back this year, then why did that not immediately call for Fields to get as much experience at 3B as possible?

It's not a big deal, but having Fields play 20 more games at 3B to end the season would have helped him and the team in '08.

TomBradley72
01-22-2008, 12:18 PM
I think one of the emerging "keys" to 2008 will the spring training performances of Crede, Uribe, MacDougal and Masset. If they look good...they can be used as some trade bait to help us restock the farm system and possibly upgrade at CF(I don't believe Swisher is a starting CF on a contending team over a 162 game season) or 2B (Richar MIGHT be a decent 2B...but I'd like to see an upgrade if possible) or the starting rotation (I don't mind counting on Floyd or Danks...but counting on BOTH is pretty risky).

As far as pitching goes....I think our bullpen is now stronger than the Tigers...and I think theire rotation has more risk than the media is talking about (Willis has had progressively worse seasons in the NL and Rogers is aging).

gr8mexico
01-22-2008, 12:59 PM
I like the Dotel signing and I agree that more deals could be coming. With Dotel and Linebrink in the Sox bullpen, I don't expect the Sox to add another righty reliever through a trade. If the Sox were inclined to move Crede, Uribe and MacDougal, they may seek to fill other needs, such as a CF/leadoff hitter, additional starting pitching or depth in the minor leagues. I almost hate to bring this up but if the inclusion of Scot Shields was, in fact, the deal breaker for any Sox/L.A. Angels trade, does the Dotel signing perhaps revive a possibility of a trade for Kendrick, Figgins, E. Santana and/or minor leaguers (but not Shields)?
If this trade rumors was to be true. Now is the time to pull of the trade.

PaleHoser
01-22-2008, 01:06 PM
Aardsma has been DFA to clear the roster spot.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3208331
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080122&content_id=2352606&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

oeo
01-22-2008, 01:07 PM
It's not a big deal, but having Fields play 20 more games at 3B to end the season would have helped him and the team in '08.

20 games would have done that?

I think knowing the future of Fields was much more important to 2008 than those extra 20 games. They lost nothing by seeing what Fields could do out there.

Sockinchisox
01-22-2008, 01:08 PM
Cowley says Ramirez will in the running for the leadoff spot.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/752900,cst-spt-sox22a.article

JermaineDye05
01-22-2008, 01:09 PM
I think one of the emerging "keys" to 2008 will the spring training performances of Crede, Uribe, MacDougal and Masset. If they look good...they can be used as some trade bait to help us restock the farm system and possibly upgrade at CF(I don't believe Swisher is a starting CF on a contending team over a 162 game season) or 2B (Richar MIGHT be a decent 2B...but I'd like to see an upgrade if possible) or the starting rotation (I don't mind counting on Floyd or Danks...but counting on BOTH is pretty risky).

As far as pitching goes....I think our bullpen is now stronger than the Tigers...and I think theire rotation has more risk than the media is talking about (Willis has had progressively worse seasons in the NL and Rogers is aging).

I wouldn't be surprised if the Sox hang onto Masset, he's only 25 and has a lot of potential. I could see him taking a shot at the starting rotation, that is if Gavin shows up as his old self. I really don't feel safe having Gavin in the rotation, at least not when he has only 2 pitches. I'd like to see him incorporate a change up or even a 2 seamer. His curve is great, but when you can't throw it for strikes all the time and you're forced to throw your fastball 75% of the time you're going to get rocked. I assume one of them will be gone by next season considering they're both out of options. That is of course unless one makes the rotation and the other makes it into long relief. I really do think the Sox would like to hang on to both of them though considering they're both pitchers who are fairly young and have a ton of potential.

RowanDye
01-22-2008, 01:21 PM
I think one of the emerging "keys" to 2008 will the spring training performances of Crede, Uribe, MacDougal and Masset. If they look good...they can be used as some trade bait to help us restock the farm system and possibly upgrade at CF(I don't believe Swisher is a starting CF on a contending team over a 162 game season) or 2B (Richar MIGHT be a decent 2B...but I'd like to see an upgrade if possible) or the starting rotation (I don't mind counting on Floyd or Danks...but counting on BOTH is pretty risky).

As far as pitching goes....I think our bullpen is now stronger than the Tigers...and I think theire rotation has more risk than the media is talking about (Willis has had progressively worse seasons in the NL and Rogers is aging).

I don't see anymore move for OFs.

We already have 4 OFs: Dye, Swisher, Quentin, Owens.

Plus we have Ramirez and Anderson.

I don't see anymore moves for 2B either.

We have 3 guys at 2B: Richar, Uribe, and Ozuna.

Plus we have Ramirez and Getz in the minors.

I agree that it would be nice to get something for the guys you mentioned, but I think the "keys" to 2008 will ultimately be the pitching of Danks and Floyd.

I think it will be hard to trade Uribe unless Richar has an amazing spring training, and Ozuna or Ramirez show they can fill the utility roles.

Finally I would love to get some major league pitching back for Crede, but I don't think Ervin Santana or whoever else really improves us.

jabrch
01-22-2008, 03:20 PM
This isn't necessarily directed specifically at you JB98. I'm just wondering why do people insist on rigidly adhering to a traditional lineup when the squad doesn't fit? Speed only works in combination with a decent OBP, which we don't have!

Here's my batting order:

Swisher
Thome
Cabrera
Fields
Konerko
Pierzynski
Dye
Richar
Owens/Quentin



I can't see any reason to have Fields get more ABs than Dye. I also can't see why you'd want Cabrerra in the 3 hole. Hitting Thome #2 is insane. He needs to bat 3/4 so he has the best chance to drive in runners.

I'm all for a non-traditional lineup - but this doesn't seem like the right way to do it.

soxfanreggie
01-22-2008, 05:52 PM
Fields in the 4 spot?

RowanDye
01-23-2008, 11:40 AM
I can't see any reason to have Fields get more ABs than Dye. I also can't see why you'd want Cabrerra in the 3 hole. Hitting Thome #2 is insane. He needs to bat 3/4 so he has the best chance to drive in runners.

I'm all for a non-traditional lineup - but this doesn't seem like the right way to do it.



You can flip Cabrera and Thome if you want, my original lineup would probably lead to a lot of GIDP by Cabrera. I would like to find a way to split up Thome and Konerko though.

As a whole I just don't really buy into "smallball" tactics, and I especially don't like trying to force something onto a team that is not equipped for it.

Everyone loved the top of the order on the '05 squad because of the ability of Pods and Iguchi to successfully get a guy into scoring position for the heart of the lineup. At some point though, you have to play the hand you're dealt.

The offensive philosophy really depends on Jerry Owens.

The best scenario for the '08 team is for Owens to break out
If Owens can come close to the .350 OBP that Pods put up in '05, then we are in business. Cabrera can hit second and the rest of the lineup falls into place.

Unfortunately Owens has yet to show he can be a leadoff hitter, which because of his average defensive abilities is the only role that really warrants him being on the team.

Much has been said about Owen's signs of improvement after the all-star break last year in which he carried a respectable, if not promising, .340 OBP.

If you dig a little deeper though, there is reason to be concerned. In 144 ABs leading off an inning (season totals), Owens managed a meager .227 OBP.

Maybe he was he putting too much pressure on himself, who knows?

If Owens can't put it together this year, then I think we need to stick our high OBP guys at the top and rely more on station-to-station baseball.

Having a pesky guy, like Pods or Owens, on base in the first inning is a great way to rattle the pitcher. If we don't have that, then I'd rather see Swisher and Thome on base with a bunch of guys you can't pitch around coming up to bat.