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View Full Version : *Rumor* Octavio Dotel Signs With White Sox


John Barrett
01-18-2008, 07:20 AM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

BeviBall!
01-18-2008, 07:24 AM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

I'll wait for a credible source... but if the numbers are right at 2yr/$11MM :puking:

PorkChopExpress
01-18-2008, 07:26 AM
I did not expect that. A bit pricey, but isn't everything these days. I like what he can bring, just not sure if he's reliable. I approve, though.:cool:

SoxxoS
01-18-2008, 07:36 AM
Bring it - These are the kind of moves KW succeeds at.

Zisk77
01-18-2008, 07:48 AM
Impacto deportivo! It must be true...whats an impacto deportivo?:redneck

spawn
01-18-2008, 07:52 AM
I knew I should've taken more Spanish Classes:

Dotel signs with White Sox (http://www.impactodeportivo.com.do/?op=displaystory&story_id=1968&format=html)

EDIT: I heard the Score is reporting this as well.

Zisk77
01-18-2008, 07:57 AM
Ah Los Medias Blancas de Chicago, why didn't you say so? Arribe! tierra del feugo (Fletch reference).

spawn
01-18-2008, 07:59 AM
Es muy bueno! Si es verdad, me gusta!

WhiteSox5187
01-18-2008, 08:01 AM
I knew I should've taken more Spanish Classes:

Dotel signs with White Sox (http://www.impactodeportivo.com.do/?op=displaystory&story_id=1968&format=html)

EDIT: I heard the Score is reporting this as well.
Effectividad literally means effectiveness, but I would assume that means ERA?

WhiteSox5187
01-18-2008, 08:03 AM
Es muy bueno! Me gusta mucho!
Pienso que es para mas que dinero que debemos haber gastado.

fquaye149
01-18-2008, 08:06 AM
Dotel era efectivo por todos los equipos excepto los yankees.

Pero, todos los equipos son en la ligua national

santo=dorf
01-18-2008, 08:20 AM
So instead of acquiring young flame throwers with scrap (Cotts and Gload) like last season, we're acquiring older, more injury prone fireballers by throwing millions of dollars at them. Whatever.

I like Dotel when he's healthy, but his health is a serious issue.

Jenks
Linebrink
Dotel
Thornton
Wasserman
Logan

Is that the six right there? We don't have a long man (unless they carry 12 pitchers) and Danks and Floyd have shown they can't eat up innings.

EDIT: Completely forgot about MacDougal

soxwon
01-18-2008, 08:26 AM
Pienso que es para mas que dinero que debemos haber gastado.

Damn it speak English, this is america not the UN.

calderon
01-18-2008, 08:28 AM
According to the dominican site Impacto Deportivo, the White sox have signed him for 2 years, 11 million.

palehozenychicty
01-18-2008, 08:32 AM
Damn it speak English, this is america not the UN.

The days of America being an only English-speaking country are fading slowly. Get used to it.

btrain929
01-18-2008, 08:33 AM
So instead of acquiring young flame throwers with scrap (Cotts and Gload) like last season, we're acquiring older, more injury prone fireballers by throwing millions of dollars at them. Whatever.

I like Dotel when he's healthy, but his health is a serious issue.

Jenks
Linebrink
Dotel
Thornton
Wasserman
Logan

Is that the six right there? We don't have a long man (unless they carry 12 pitchers) and Danks and Floyd have shown they can't eat up innings.

We've only acquired one of those cuz Linebrink doesn't fall into that category. If he sucks this year, I'm sure we'd have no problem trading him next winter or next years deadline. I don't mind it. Only a 2 year deal, and I don't have a problem with money going to (hopefully) improve our pitching situation.

Gammons Peter
01-18-2008, 08:33 AM
How healthy is he? I don't think he pitched a whole lot last year

skottyj242
01-18-2008, 08:34 AM
Rotoworld says he's close to signing with Baltimore.

pmck003
01-18-2008, 08:41 AM
Was he coming back from tommy john last year? I know he didn't do well but if he has recovered it could be a nasty addition.

Edit: had a ligament replaced in summer of 2005. 4.11 era with a 1.34 Whip last year in his first full year after surgery (30 innings).

D. TODD
01-18-2008, 08:47 AM
Wow, I didn't see that one coming. I will have to see how healthy he is to make any judgement. I'm not overjoyed about this, but if fully recovered he might be a huge boost to the pen. Hopefully a diamond in the rough, but we will see if it's just a lump of coal in the end.

Jaffar
01-18-2008, 08:48 AM
This is still a rumor and there is already a thread in WTS. Other outlets (rotoworld) have him close to signing with the Orioles.

santo=dorf
01-18-2008, 08:49 AM
We've only acquired one of those cuz Linebrink doesn't fall into that category. If he sucks this year, I'm sure we'd have no problem trading him next winter or next years deadline. I don't mind it. Only a 2 year deal, and I don't have a problem with money going to (hopefully) improve our pitching situation.
Please explain this. Juan Uribe sucks, makes less money, isn't injury prone, and plays defense at his position like he is supposed to (although he has been slipping) yet we can't find a taker. I know teams tend to look for RP's more than slick fielding SS's (of course we traded our starting pitcher for one) but it's really difficult to assume a guy who has spent a lot of time on the shelf, is coming off a bad year and is making millions of dollars will be easy to trade.

Before anyone says "ODot," his nickname should be Octavio "Don't ask" Dotel. :cool: (awaits another political repsonse from soxwon on that one.)

Damn it speak English, this is america not the UN.
http://arecountry.ytmnd.com/
Rotoworld says he's close to signing with Baltimore.
No they don't. Here's the latest posted on him, and it was on the 14th.

The Orioles have talked with Octavio Dotel's agents within the past few days, the Baltimore Sun reports.

Dotel to Baltimore needs to happen. He's easily the best closer option available, and Baltimore is the one place he'd be sure to have a gig. The Orioles haven't made filling the closer's role a priority -- they know they're destined for fourth or fifth place no matter who pitches the ninth -- but odds are that they will bring in an established pitcher eventually.

All they're doing is quoting the Sun about talking to the guy, and in their opinion he would be smart to go to Baltimore.

Jurr
01-18-2008, 08:52 AM
Nobody would be dumb enough to spend that much money on a guy that hasn't been thoroughly examined and evaluated. Hopefully he has found new strength in his elbow and can be a productive player again.

balke
01-18-2008, 09:06 AM
So instead of acquiring young flame throwers with scrap (Cotts and Gload) like last season, we're acquiring older, more injury prone fireballers by throwing millions of dollars at them. Whatever.

I like Dotel when he's healthy, but his health is a serious issue.

Jenks
Linebrink
Dotel
Thornton
Wasserman
Logan

Is that the six right there? We don't have a long man (unless they carry 12 pitchers) and Danks and Floyd have shown they can't eat up innings.

EDIT: Completely forgot about MacDougal


Jenks
Linebrink
Dotel
Macdougal (hopefully old Macdougal)
Thornton
Logan

I expect a reliever to be packaged in a trade w/ Crede or Fields.

As for Danks durability, he showed he can go 6 innings at the beginning of the year. And people were saying his second season he'll be able to be on the field more as he will be used to the league and will increase endurance.


For the money, I kinda hope this is a rumor.

Rocky Soprano
01-18-2008, 09:10 AM
Pienso que es para mas que dinero que debemos haber gastado.

Quisas. Pero tambien es posible que Dotel sea una gran ayuda para nuestro bullpen.

btrain929
01-18-2008, 09:11 AM
Jenks
Linebrink
Dotel
Macdougal (hopefully old Macdougal)
Thornton
Logan

I expect a reliever to be packaged in a trade w/ Crede or Fields.

As for Danks durability, he showed he can go 6 innings at the beginning of the year. And people were saying his second season he'll be able to be on the field more as he will be used to the league and will increase endurance.


For the money, I kinda hope this is a rumor.

The more quality and depth we have in the pen, the less pressure there will be on Danks and Floyd to go past 6 innings.

Rocky Soprano
01-18-2008, 09:14 AM
Damn it speak English, this is america not the UN.

I thought because it was America that means we can speak pretty much whatever we want?

102605
01-18-2008, 09:15 AM
Convengo sí. ¿Qué puede cualquier persona quejarse alrededor? Ayudaremos en 2008. Esto mejora solamente a equipo. ¡Sin embargo, espero que 5.5 millones por año estuvieran con incentivos!

russ99
01-18-2008, 09:17 AM
Octavio would be a heck of a pick-up, and fill in the bullpen nicely.

If the Sox sign him and he's healthy, MacDougal could be moved in a deal.

CashMan
01-18-2008, 09:17 AM
Convengo sí. ¿Qué puede cualquier persona quejarse alrededor? Ayudaremos en 2008. Esto mejora solamente a equipo. ¡Sin embargo, espero que 5.5 millones por año estuvieran con incentivos!

Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto.

WhiteSox5187
01-18-2008, 09:25 AM
Quisas. Pero tambien es posible que Dotel sea una gran ayuda para nuestro bullpen.
Si, pero cualquieria seria una ayuda ahora.

rdwj
01-18-2008, 09:28 AM
If true, I hope it's a contract with most of the cash in incentives. If so, great move. If not - it's a gamble. Hopefully a gamble Kenny wins. I think he's due for some good luck after last year.

WhiteSox5187
01-18-2008, 09:28 AM
Convengo sí. ¿Qué puede cualquier persona quejarse alrededor? Ayudaremos en 2008. Esto mejora solamente a equipo. ¡Sin embargo, espero que 5.5 millones por año estuvieran con incentivos!
Hablas espanol muy bien, con corrrija grammatica y punctuacion!

WhiteSox5187
01-18-2008, 09:30 AM
Rotoworld says he's close to signing with Baltimore.
:o: Ay dios mio! Ellos son mentir bastardos!!

102605
01-18-2008, 09:31 AM
Hablas espanol muy bien, con corrrija grammatica y punctuacion!

Gracias mucho. Cuando usted vive 8 millas de la frontera de México usted tiene que aprender saber español muy bien.

Rocky Soprano
01-18-2008, 09:34 AM
Si, pero cualquieria seria una ayuda ahora.

Eso es muy cierto.
No quiero ni pensar que el bullpen no sea mucho mejor este ano.

btrain929
01-18-2008, 09:36 AM
Gracias mucho. Cuando usted vive 8 millas de la frontera de México usted tiene que aprender saber español muy bien.

All I know is aprender and saber shouldn't be back to back unconjugated :)

Corlose 15
01-18-2008, 09:38 AM
Its only a risk if the money keeps them from improving the team another way. The pitching staff is the only way they need to improve the team IMO so I have no problem with it.

So, last year KW goes with youth, this year he goes with experience. Will it work this year? Who knows. What I do know is that no matter what happens, people will *****. :cool:

oeo
01-18-2008, 09:38 AM
Rotoworld says he's close to signing with Baltimore.

The White Sox have agreed to terms with Octavio Dotel on a two-year contract worth $11 million, according to Impacto Deportivo.

Rotoworld confirms it.

Not sure how I feel about it, but the people of WSI have gotten their way...Kenny has spent money on the bullpen.

spawn
01-18-2008, 09:39 AM
¡Este hilo de rosca gobierna!

DumpJerry
01-18-2008, 09:44 AM
Once there is confirmation, this will be moved to the Clubhouse.

Flight #24
01-18-2008, 09:46 AM
Any 1 or 2 year deal is inherently not that risky when the salary is <~10M. Think of it this way: the average salary is pushing $3M, so at $5.5 he's barely above average. And remember, that average is significantly skewed by the reasonable percentage of players who make <$1M because of service time. So comparing to actual FA signings, he's coming dirt cheap.

Good move. The kind of low-risk one that has at times been successful for this team. Colon would be another one if on a similar type of deal (with some inflation for being an SP, say 2/$15 or better yet, 1/$6 with a $10M team option and a $2M buyout).

It's Time
01-18-2008, 09:51 AM
Welcome to 2000 and 2001. Meh, not much risk here at all, but hardly an earth shattering move.

balke
01-18-2008, 09:53 AM
Well, I guess if there was only one move made this offseason for the bullpen, and Dotel was it, I wouldn't care about the money.

These are 2 risky signings though (factoring in recent play and $ spent). It'll be great if these guys can perform though. There's 4 guys in the bullpen who have shown closer potential in the past. I won't be crying at all if Dotel can give 50+ innings and 80+ K's with a low ERA.

102605
01-18-2008, 09:56 AM
Alright I'm back to posting in English.


11 mil for 2 years seems like a ton but I guess that is slightly above AVG now which is ridiculous.

Either way, KW has been doing everything he can at winning NEXT year. He always has and that is the way he will always be. He caught lightning in a bottle once in 2005. Who knows, he is certainly capable of doing it again.

russ99
01-18-2008, 09:58 AM
Well, I guess if there was only one move made this offseason for the bullpen, and Dotel was it, I wouldn't care about the money.

These are 2 risky signings though (factoring in recent play and $ spent). It'll be great if these guys can perform though. There's 4 guys in the bullpen who have shown closer potential in the past. I won't be crying at all if Dotel can give 50+ innings and 80+ K's with a low ERA.

I don't think these are risky at all. FA relievers the quality of Linebrink and Dotel are expensive.

Would you rather have Prinz and Bukvich filling out the pen or Dotel and Linebrink...

peeonwrigley
01-18-2008, 10:04 AM
Prinz and Bukvich

*shudder*

balke
01-18-2008, 10:04 AM
I don't think these are risky at all. FA relievers the quality of Linebrink and Dotel are expensive.

Would you rather have Prinz and Bukvich filling out the pen or Dotel and Linebrink...

loaded question with Prinz and Bukvich. But, its just funny to see these type of signings from a team that refused to give Flash Gordon 5 M in 2004. Now there are 2 guys in the bullpen making a ton of cash as far as set-up relievers go, one has an injury history, one is coming off a pretty rough year.

I think its a good signing, but there is risk there to waste 10 million on 2 guys who may perform poorly.

btrain929
01-18-2008, 10:05 AM
You know he was going to get 5-7 for a one year deal, no doubt about it. The only thing that makes it look bigger is cuz of the 2nd guaranteed year. Either way, 2 years isn't on the hook for too long. I like the move.

oeo
01-18-2008, 10:07 AM
loaded question with Prinz and Bukvich. But, its just funny to see these type of signings from a team that refused to give Flash Gordon 5 M in 2004.

Two things changed that:
1)The title in 2005.
2)The market. $5 million in 2004 != $5 million in 2008.

Goose
01-18-2008, 10:09 AM
I see no confirmation from any major news outlets...anyone got one?

Flight #24
01-18-2008, 10:10 AM
I see no confirmation from any major news outlets...anyone got one?

Does it get any more "major" than Impactivo Deportivo?

Bucky F. Dent
01-18-2008, 10:17 AM
Does it get any more "major" than Impactivo Deportivo?


Well, that answers my question.

Another smoke and mirrors rumor from our friends in the blogoshpere.

Beer Can Chicken
01-18-2008, 10:19 AM
3 years - 55 IP.
KW really didn't give him that much $$$, did he? :o:

DumpJerry
01-18-2008, 10:21 AM
Bruce Levine is reporting that the Sox are "close" to signing Dotel.


I guess he'll be with the Red Sox.

voodoochile
01-18-2008, 10:22 AM
loaded question with Prinz and Bukvich. But, its just funny to see these type of signings from a team that refused to give Flash Gordon 5 M in 2004. Now there are 2 guys in the bullpen making a ton of cash as far as set-up relievers go, one has an injury history, one is coming off a pretty rough year.

I think its a good signing, but there is risk there to waste 10 million on 2 guys who may perform poorly.

Well it has been 4 years and what is normal money today wasn't back then. Kudos to KW for figuring it out and spending what it takes to land the players the Sox need.

Rocky Soprano
01-18-2008, 10:23 AM
Bruce Levine is reporting that the Sox are "close" to signing Dotel.


I guess he'll be with the Red Sox.

My brother heard him as well.
I guess that pretty much confirms its not going to happen.

PalehosePlanet
01-18-2008, 10:23 AM
Jenks closing, Linebrink and Dotel setting up, Thornton, Logan, Macdougal and ?? I like it!

There is a good chance that Macdougal and Thornton have bounce back years (seems to be the norm for talented relievers to bounce back after a bad year) and that Logan starts turning the corner as a quality young RP.

People can ***** about the money all they want but it is not far fetched to say that we could end up with the best bullpen in the AL.

We do need a long man type though, ala Sean Lowe back in the day. Maybe if we sign Fatolo, then Gavin could go to the pen and be the long man. If we don't sign Fatolo, then maybe we should consider Broadway or another near MLB ready minor leaguer SP for the role.

kjhanson
01-18-2008, 10:24 AM
loaded question with Prinz and Bukvich. But, its just funny to see these type of signings from a team that refused to give Flash Gordon 5 M in 2004. Now there are 2 guys in the bullpen making a ton of cash as far as set-up relievers go, one has an injury history, one is coming off a pretty rough year.

I think its a good signing, but there is risk there to waste 10 million on 2 guys who may perform poorly.

There's a pretty big difference with Gordon. First off, the Sox have, and are willing to spend, a lot more cash than they did after 2003. Furthermore, the market has inflated a ton in the past 4 years. Finally, Gordon was 36 years old in that off-season and had thrown 74 innings that year. He had only thrown 88 total innings in the big leagues in the three previous years.

rowand33
01-18-2008, 10:24 AM
I just hope Broadway has a spot in the pen. I think he'll be solid.

Dotel could be elite.

I don't like giving him that second year, but it's not my money.

jabrch
01-18-2008, 10:26 AM
I'd like to see this somewhere other than Impacto Deportivo and Rotoworld - but this would be very interesting.

jabrch
01-18-2008, 11:05 AM
it is not far fetched to say that we could end up with the best bullpen in the AL.


If this happens, at least on paper, our pen looks to be the strongest in the AL Central, assuming the Twins eventually move Nathan somewhere and nobody else makes a move.

Either way - one of our biggest weakness last season was that we counted on unproven kids in the pen who didn't deliver. Kenny (if this happens) went the other way this offseasono and brought in two proven setup guys who will make us much stronger in the pen. Our second biggest weakness was injuries. Kenny has removed two of the bigger injury risks from last year (Pods and Erstad) and replaced them with a guy with no injury history (Swisher) and Quinten (coming off an injury) but with Owens as insurance.

You can't say Kenny didn't go out there and fix some of the problems we had last year. The only new hole he creates was a #2ish starter in Gar, but he made moves that should fix the pen, fix the OF, fix the IF, and deepen the bench.

As usual, KW was bold and aggressive. His moves may not work out, but there is reasonable logic behind all of them. I think the best part about it is that he didn't break the bank anywhere and tie us to a long term risky contract for a player with warts (either Rowand or Hunter) and he still probably has flexibility to make another move or two if needed.

kaufsox
01-18-2008, 11:11 AM
first, I can't believe how much of the spanish I'm able to discern. Maybe my high school education wasn't as bad as I thought. Second, I think it is a good move, if it comes off. Pretty low price and risk and would be a great set up guy for Jenks.

btrain929
01-18-2008, 11:18 AM
If this happens, at least on paper, our pen looks to be the strongest in the AL Central, assuming the Twins eventually move Nathan somewhere and nobody else makes a move.

Either way - one of our biggest weakness last season was that we counted on unproven kids in the pen who didn't deliver. Kenny (if this happens) went the other way this offseasono and brought in two proven setup guys who will make us much stronger in the pen. Our second biggest weakness was injuries. Kenny has removed two of the bigger injury risks from last year (Pods and Erstad) and replaced them with a guy with no injury history (Swisher) and Quinten (coming off an injury) but with Owens as insurance.

You can't say Kenny didn't go out there and fix some of the problems we had last year. The only new hole he creates was a #2ish starter in Gar, but he made moves that should fix the pen, fix the OF, fix the IF, and deepen the bench.

As usual, KW was bold and aggressive. His moves may not work out, but there is reasonable logic behind all of them. I think the best part about it is that he didn't break the bank anywhere and tie us to a long term risky contract for a player with warts (either Rowand or Hunter) and he still probably has flexibility to make another move or two if needed.

Very well said. The only thing I'd argue is that Garland is a #4 on a good rotation, and a #3 on rotations similar to ours. I think we could have signed a guy like Livan Hernandez and he would have replaced Garland's results for a lot cheaper. Here's hoping to Contreras and Danks stepping up this year and putting up some good numbers. If that happens, we can definitely be a dark horse in the AL Central/Wildcard races....

thomas35forever
01-18-2008, 11:24 AM
Dotel would be a nice setup man to have. Of course, that would probably move Thornton to middle relief. Unless the bullpen craps out again, I would not want to face Linebrink and Dotel before seeing Jenks.

JermaineDye05
01-18-2008, 11:25 AM
:DJ
"Oh Do Tell!"

I think Dotel can be good, as long as he's not closing. With Jenks at the back end and Linebrink behind him in case he falters, I don't think we have to worry about that too much. I'm not gonna believe it until it's official though. We've had a couple of trades and signings that supposedly happened that appeared to be false. However, I find Impactivo Deportivo a little more reliable then "my friend just emailed me this...he heard it on ESPN 1000"

JermaineDye05
01-18-2008, 11:27 AM
Dotel would be a nice setup man to have. Of course, that would probably move Thornton to middle relief. Unless the bullpen craps out again, I would not want to face Linebrink and Dotel before seeing Jenks.

That's of course assuming we have the Linebrink of two years ago. I for one think he will be good with this year, and I agree with you. I wouldn't want to face those 2.

jabrch
01-18-2008, 11:28 AM
Very well said. The only thing I'd argue is that Garland is a #4 on a good rotation, and a #3 on rotations similar to ours. I think we could have signed a guy like Livan Hernandez and he would have replaced Garland's results for a lot cheaper. Here's hoping to Contreras and Danks stepping up this year and putting up some good numbers. If that happens, we can definitely be a dark horse in the AL Central/Wildcard races....


You can argue this point - and show decent data - to support either stance. He has won a lot of games, and thrown a lot of innings. He wouldn't be the #2 on Boston's rotation, but he would be on many in the game. At the same time, his stats don't compare out particularly favorably to the top #2s. I'd call him a #2/#3. I don't think he'd be a #4 on too many rotations.

Either way - for all the pissing and moaning about this offseason, and given that it is still only mid-January, it is not difficult to argue that Kenny has made the team significantly better than it was last year, and that it is within the realm of possibility that we go from being one of the worst teams in the game last year to being a legitimate post-season contender. It is also reasonoable to say that he gave up very little financial flexibility in the process - since we added no long term risky contracts.

Sure - there are negatives. He didn't get a "top tier FA OF" and he did give up our 2 best pitching prospects. But we improved in 2 bullpen spots, at SS, in CF and in LF. We have two viable options at 2B. We have two viable options at 3B. We can expect that Dye/PK/Thome play to their 3 year averages - which would all be better than they did last year. Then the only hopes we really have are that the rotation holds up. There's the biggest risk we have left going into 2008. Past Buehrle, each guy has potential to be Garland or better, and also potential to be Carlos Silva or worse.

Either way - this team is a contender, even in the AL Central.

russ99
01-18-2008, 11:30 AM
That's of course assuming we have the Linebrink of two years ago. I for one think he will be good with this year, and I agree with you. I wouldn't want to face those 2.

I think there's more concern on Dotel than Linebrink.

Dotel has insane stuff, but he's occasionally wind and/or hittable, and then there's the injury concerns.

Linebrink hasn't really faced the AL yet, so he should have a pretty good season.

I think the last year and half with the Padres was a bit of a fluke. Plus, despite his spectacular numbers previously, they kept moving younger pitchers ahead of him and kept him as a 6th-7th guy, thus stagnating his role.

schmitty9800
01-18-2008, 11:32 AM
Dotel isn't a bad bargain even if it is 2/11M, especially because he'll only be expected to be the third best arm in the pen. Thornton can become a bit more of a specialist too and might end up being more effective.

Dan Mega
01-18-2008, 11:34 AM
3 years - 55 IP.
KW really didn't give him that much $$$, did he? :o:

No kidding. The non-shocker of all of this is how there are people who love this potential signing.

We all know how this worked out with Erstad. But hey, 2005! We'll always have 2005!

spawn
01-18-2008, 11:37 AM
The Score is now reporting these reports are false.

soxwon
01-18-2008, 11:39 AM
The days of America being an only English-speaking country are fading slowly. Get used to it.


I dont have to and neither does anyone else.

Jurr
01-18-2008, 11:40 AM
This team may not be the '05 White Sox as far as offensive versatility goes, but it looks to be a little better suited to avoid sustained outages.

The bullpen is going to be so huge. If you are asking Floyd and Danks to be your 4 and 5 guys, then you need a competent bullpen to keep things stable to allow this offense to come back from the 1-3 run deficits that the Sox will be faced with from the 6th inning on.

I don't think either Danks or Floyd will be failures as starters by any means, but I don't suspect them to be entering the later innings with consistent 5-1 leads, either. The bullpen is the key to the '08 season.

soxwon
01-18-2008, 11:40 AM
The Score is now reporting these reports are false.


that guarantees it will happen. as planned.

Carolina Kenny
01-18-2008, 11:41 AM
You can argue this point - and show decent data - to support either stance. He has won a lot of games, and thrown a lot of innings. He wouldn't be the #2 on Boston's rotation, but he would be on many in the game. At the same time, his stats don't compare out particularly favorably to the top #2s. I'd call him a #2/#3. I don't think he'd be a #4 on too many rotations.

Either way - for all the pissing and moaning about this offseason, and given that it is still only mid-January, it is not difficult to argue that Kenny has made the team significantly better than it was last year, and that it is within the realm of possibility that we go from being one of the worst teams in the game last year to being a legitimate post-season contender. It is also reasonoable to say that he gave up very little financial flexibility in the process - since we added no long term risky contracts.

Sure - there are negatives. He didn't get a "top tier FA OF" and he did give up our 2 best pitching prospects. But we improved in 2 bullpen spots, at SS, in CF and in LF. We have two viable options at 2B. We have two viable options at 3B. We can expect that Dye/PK/Thome play to their 3 year averages - which would all be better than they did last year. Then the only hopes we really have are that the rotation holds up. There's the biggest risk we have left going into 2008. Past Buehrle, each guy has potential to be Garland or better, and also potential to be Carlos Silva or worse.

Either way - this team is a contender, even in the AL Central.


This team is a big improvement (on paper) than last year. Kudos to Kenny for the changes he has made. This will be a exciting year.

Dan Mega
01-18-2008, 11:42 AM
The Score is now reporting these reports are false.

:pray:

balke
01-18-2008, 11:43 AM
The Score is now reporting these reports are false.

Hrm. Kinda sucks. I was getting ready for some hope looking at Dotel's stats. He had a good stretch in June/July last season.

VenturaFan23
01-18-2008, 11:45 AM
The Score is now reporting these reports are false.

How could that be? Levine has never been known to jump the gun!

Flight #24
01-18-2008, 11:45 AM
Interesting thought: If they do sign Dotel, and the pen becomes Jenks-Linebrink-Dotel-Thornton-Logan (who all seem like locks), then that basically leaves 1 slot for a pitcher with MacDougal likely to get first shot. So what happens to the crew that are out of options, including Masset & Aardsma?

I would assume they'd try to trade Macdougal, but do you then go with 12 pitchers and try to get some value out of those 2 (IIRC Floyd is the other one out of options but he'll be in the rotation)?

Also, if you sign Colon, what happens if he makes the squad? Being in position to HAVE to deal a kid is not a great one. Kind of like how I'm sure the Sox will get lowballed on Crede because they don't want to keep Fields in AAA and Kenny's been pretty consistent on Josh only playing 3B.

I like the moves (if they happen) to get Dotel & Colon, but it kind of sucks not to get any value at all out of Masset/Aardsma/Floyd while having gotten their piss-poor performances in '07 (Floyd excepted from that last bit).

IceczMan
01-18-2008, 11:48 AM
:pray:

Why wouldnt you want Dotel on the team? We aren't giving up any players for him, and we aren't compromising our future. I fail to see a downside, if he blows up, than we call up whatever pitcher did well in spring training that would have taken his spot in the first place, i.e. Logan, Wasserman, Broadway.

btrain929
01-18-2008, 11:50 AM
I just hope there's some type of snag, but that the deal still goes through. I hope Dotel didn't agree on it, and then some team swooped in last second to offer 2/15 or something and he's considering THAT now......:angry:

C'mon KW, make it happen....

Lukin13
01-18-2008, 11:51 AM
I give Kenny and JR credit; they are trying to win. I might have gone about it a different way but it is hard to complain about your team shelling out the dough to try and fix a problem.

There isn't a team in baseball that couldn't have used Dotel and Linebrink.... and we got them both.

theoakwoody
01-18-2008, 11:53 AM
I don't know how I feel about this. I guess they are giving him close to 5 mill per year for 2 years. He hasn't had a good year since '04 but at least he's pitched in the Majors (American League).

Oh I my source was Waddle and Silvy on ESPN 1000.

Dan Mega
01-18-2008, 11:55 AM
Why wouldnt you want Dotel on the team? We aren't giving up any players for him, and we aren't compromising our future. I fail to see a downside, if he blows up, than we call up whatever pitcher did well in spring training that would have taken his spot in the first place, i.e. Logan, Wasserman, Broadway.

And then what you have a $5 million dollar pitcher in the minors? I think it could be smartly spent elsewhere. Like developing minor league talent.

Nellie_Fox
01-18-2008, 11:56 AM
I don't know how I feel about this. I guess they are giving him close to 5 mill per year for 2 years. He hasn't had a good year since '04 but at least he's pitched in the Majors (American League).

Oh I my source was Waddle and Silvy on ESPN 1000.Which is why it belonged in What's the Score, and why it is now merged with the thread that was already multiple pages long on this rumor.

kruzer31
01-18-2008, 12:05 PM
Sox sign Octavio Dotel to a 2 year deal worth 11 mil.


Jeff

jsg-07
01-18-2008, 12:07 PM
Is this official?? do you have a link?

There is a 7 page thread on this in WTS already.

chisoxmike
01-18-2008, 12:10 PM
False.

the1tab
01-18-2008, 12:13 PM
this was reported on ESPN 1000 just a little while ago as being done. Yes? No?

Vestigio
01-18-2008, 12:15 PM
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playernews.aspx?sport=MLB&filter_teams=ATL

Oh great another former Royal RP....

Beer Can Chicken
01-18-2008, 12:16 PM
No kidding. The non-shocker of all of this is how there are people who love this potential signing.

We all know how this worked out with Erstad. But hey, 2005! We'll always have 2005!

I'd love to hear the reaction if the Cubs or Tigers made this signing. I think many of the phrases being thrown around would be:

Washed-up
Overpayed
Injury ridden

WizardsofOzzie
01-18-2008, 12:22 PM
:threadrules:

Este hilo gobierna!

The Immigrant
01-18-2008, 12:37 PM
Well surprise, surprise - WSCR now says that while the Sox are interested in Dotel, there's no deal to report.

Taliesinrk
01-18-2008, 12:40 PM
Well surprise, surprise - WSCR now says that while the Sox are interested in Dotel, there's no deal to report.

but 1000 is reporting it as done?

getonbckthr
01-18-2008, 12:45 PM
Hey Kenny if you were this desperate to throw 11 million dollars away I would have taken it from you.:angry:

Taliesinrk
01-18-2008, 12:47 PM
Hey Kenny if you were this desperate to throw 11 million dollars away I would have taken it from you.:angry:

has he?!?! what is going on here?

soxfan21
01-18-2008, 12:47 PM
I don't think this deal is final yet, because, like the Swisher deal, whitesox.com usually posts a press release soon after any deal is complete. There is nothing on there to report yet.

getonbckthr
01-18-2008, 12:48 PM
has he?!?! what is going on here?
As soon as this deal is official he has.

btrain929
01-18-2008, 12:51 PM
As soon as this deal is official he has.

We have money to use, and there's not much else out there to spend it on. I don't blame him for attempting to fix a hole that we had last year. I'm also assuming 11 mil wouldn't be throw at Dotel unless doctors thoroughly examined him recent records, or pending a physical. If he's healthy, he's dominant, period. He would have easily got 5-8 million for a one year deal from another team out there, so it's worth the gamble in my eyes.

Some type of combination of Linebrink, Dotel, Macdougal, and Thornton should get Jenks the ball in the 9th with the lead. If they all falter, then we have some good trading pieces at the deadline or in the winter to get their money off the books....

PalehosePlanet
01-18-2008, 12:53 PM
I'd love to hear the reaction if the Cubs or Tigers made this signing. I think many of the phrases being thrown around would be:

Washed-up
Overpayed
Injury ridden

Funny you should mention the cubs and tigers because Dotel would most likely close for those two teams.

He had Tommy John surgery in '05 and has now recovered. He is throwing 97 w/movement and struck out 12 per 9 innings last year. You could say injury riddled, maybe overpayed, but certainly not washed up.

In fact both Linebrink and Dotel could have found closer roles this year, but chose to set up w/us.

If true, I like this move alot.

Foulke You
01-18-2008, 12:58 PM
I think some of you people have forgotten just how BAD our bullpen was last year. It wasn't just bad, it was monumentally bad. Kenny needed to overhaul the pen and if he dots the I's and crosses the T's on Dotel's contract, he will have signed two of the best free agent setup men on the market giving Ozzie actual major leaguers to call upon to get the game to Bobby Jenks with a lead. Kudos if the deal is true.

Beer Can Chicken
01-18-2008, 01:15 PM
Funny you should mention the cubs and tigers because Dotel would most likely close for those two teams.

He had Tommy John surgery in '05 and has now recovered. He is throwing 97 w/movement and struck out 12 per 9 innings last year. You could say injury riddled, maybe overpayed, but certainly not washed up.

In fact both Linebrink and Dotel could have found closer roles this year, but chose to set up w/us.

If true, I like this move alot.

I actually like Dotel and would love the signing if we werent paying so much for him. Not that I really care because it isnt my money but if it's true, 2years/11million seems like a pretty sweet deal for Mr. Dotel.

roadrunner
01-18-2008, 01:15 PM
I would prefer juan cruz (6-1, 3.10) over dotel and AZ just resigned him for 1 year, $1.93. It makes me wonder if KW is bidding against himself for relief help.

I don't mind overpaying for linebrink because of need but I can't agree with $11 mil over two years for a guy who hasn't done much of anything over the last two years because of serious injury.

HITMEN OF 77
01-18-2008, 01:17 PM
Oh great another former Royal RP....


:tealtutor:

Gammons Peter
01-18-2008, 01:17 PM
If true, this is a great signing. I don't care what the price is. Have you seen the going rates for baseball players...they make a lot of money, get over it.

champagne030
01-18-2008, 01:19 PM
So instead of acquiring young flame throwers with scrap (Cotts and Gload) like last season, we're acquiring older, more injury prone fireballers by throwing millions of dollars at them. Whatever.

I like Dotel when he's healthy, but his health is a serious issue.

Jenks
Linebrink
Dotel
Thornton
Wasserman
Logan

Is that the six right there? We don't have a long man (unless they carry 12 pitchers) and Danks and Floyd have shown they can't eat up innings.

EDIT: Completely forgot about MacDougal

Dotel does come with some injury issues. This move would be Kenny's best, by far, this offseason if it happens. I thought our #1 target should have been Dotel all along, but I thought he'd go for bigger dollars to close and never come here to be setup. If healthy, he blows Linebrink away and puts MacDougal on the block.

Unregistered
01-18-2008, 01:30 PM
I actually like Dotel and would love the signing if we werent paying so much for him. Not that I really care because it isnt my money but if it's true, 2years/11million seems like a pretty sweet deal for Mr. Dotel.

So is it a sweet deal or is it overpaying? :?::D:

jabrch
01-18-2008, 01:32 PM
Hey Kenny if you were this desperate to throw 11 million dollars away I would have taken it from you.:angry:

If you knew how to pitch, there'd be a market for you.

Zisk77
01-18-2008, 01:33 PM
You guys do realize if we fail to sign a guy we are too cheap, and if we do sign a guy we overpaid, don't you? I swear, some of you act like you are signing his paycheck... Jerry is that you?

santo=dorf
01-18-2008, 01:37 PM
If true, this is a great signing. I don't care what the price is. Have you seen the going rates for baseball players...they make a lot of money, get over it.
So instead of signing players to minor league deals and inviting them to spring training we should just give them $1 million guaranteed contracts? Get a grip.

Be a leader, not an excuse making follower.

santo=dorf
01-18-2008, 01:38 PM
I'd love to hear the reaction if the Cubs or Tigers made this signing. I think many of the phrases being thrown around would be:

Washed-up
Overpayed
Injury ridden
You better believe it would take less than 5 posts for someone to say "well at least Wood has a DL buddy since Prior went to San Diego."

you all KNOW it.:tongue:

kittle42
01-18-2008, 01:44 PM
We have money to use, and there's not much else out there to spend it on.

They could have spent it on any number of FA CFs.

Gammons Peter
01-18-2008, 01:45 PM
So instead of signing players to minor league deals and inviting them to spring training we should just give them $1 million guaranteed contracts? Get a grip.

Be a leader, not an excuse making follower.

If we could get him for a minor league million, great, but I'm sure he wouldn't sign because Balt. or Det or someone else was offering better.

Leader, follower, excuse maker??I have no idea what you are talking about.

kittle42
01-18-2008, 01:45 PM
You guys do realize if we fail to sign a guy we are too cheap, and if we do sign a guy we overpaid, don't you? I swear, some of you act like you are signing his paycheck... Jerry is that you?

And it's the same people complaining on both sides. Sox fans truly are amazing.

jabrch
01-18-2008, 01:46 PM
I would prefer juan cruz (6-1, 3.10) over dotel and AZ just resigned him for 1 year, $1.93. It makes me wonder if KW is bidding against himself for relief help.

That's some pretty fine logic there Sparky.

Here's the team KW SHOULD have built.

Webb - 2.5mm
Hammels - 400K
F. Hernandez - 400K
Sabathia - 9mm
Lester - 400K

Papelbon - 600K

C - V Martinez - 4mm
1B - Ryan Howard 900K
2B - Utley - 7mm
SS - Reyes - 4mm
3B - Wright - 5mm

LF - Holliday - 600K
CF - Upton - 300K
RF - Markakis - 400K


Why didn't KW think of that? Just go get other people's arbitration elig. players???? BRILLIANT!

jabrch
01-18-2008, 01:47 PM
And it's the same people complaining on both sides. Sox fans truly are amazing.

SOME of our "fans" are complete douchenozzles.

santo=dorf
01-18-2008, 01:48 PM
If we could get him for a minor league million, great, but I'm sure he wouldn't sign because Balt. or Det or someone else was offering better.

Leader, follower, excuse maker??I have no idea what you are talking about.
You said "I don't care what the price is. Have you seen the going rates for baseball players...they make a lot of money"

That's an excuse, and by signing relievers to big money because other teams are doing it is following in a path.

PalehosePlanet
01-18-2008, 01:50 PM
I would prefer juan cruz (6-1, 3.10) over dotel and AZ just resigned him for 1 year, $1.93. It makes me wonder if KW is bidding against himself for relief help.

I don't mind overpaying for linebrink because of need but I can't agree with $11 mil over two years for a guy who hasn't done much of anything over the last two years because of serious injury.

Juan Cruz was not a free agent, it was his last year of arbitration and he signed a one year deal so as to avoid going to an arbitration hearing (See: Crede, Joe)

If he has another year, like he had last year, in '08, look for him to get anywhere from 3/12 to 3/15 next year on the open market.

Beer Can Chicken
01-18-2008, 01:53 PM
So is it a sweet deal or is it overpaying? :?::D:
We're overpaying.
Sweet deal for Dotel as in he has to be very happy.

Foulke You
01-18-2008, 01:54 PM
And it's the same people complaining on both sides. Sox fans truly are amazing.
A lot of Sox fans are just not happy unless we're unhappy. Being cynical comes naturally to most Sox fans. I thought that we'd see a reduction in this after the 2005 season but 88 years of losing prior to that magical year hardened us to ever allow one year to break from habit. It would take a dynasty for many Sox fans to start looking at moves as "glass half full".

However, there is one thing Sox fans definitely don't lack and that is passion. I doubt you'd see this much emotion and discussion for the signing of one middle reliever for many other teams.

roadrunner
01-18-2008, 01:56 PM
That's some pretty fine logic there Sparky.

Here's the team KW SHOULD have built.

Webb - 2.5mm
Hammels - 400K
F. Hernandez - 400K
Sabathia - 9mm
Lester - 400K

Papelbon - 600K

C - V Martinez - 4mm
1B - Ryan Howard 900K
2B - Utley - 7mm
SS - Reyes - 4mm
3B - Wright - 5mm

LF - Holliday - 600K
CF - Upton - 300K
RF - Markakis - 400K


Why didn't KW think of that? Just go get other people's arbitration elig. players???? BRILLIANT!

Obviously I was mistaken about cruz being a free agent - you don't have to be a total douchebag about it.

It doesn't change the fact that it's alot to pay for a reliever coming off an injury.

Unregistered
01-18-2008, 01:59 PM
We're overpaying.
Sweet deal for Dotel as in he has to be very happy.

OHHHH... so not like "it's a sweet deal for the services of Octavio Dotel."

Got it. :bandance:

sox1970
01-18-2008, 02:01 PM
Score reporting Dotel's agent is denying the rumor, and that six teams are interested in Dotel. Nice going to that newspaper.

Gammons Peter
01-18-2008, 02:09 PM
You said "I don't care what the price is. Have you seen the going rates for baseball players...they make a lot of money"

That's an excuse, and by signing relievers to big money because other teams are doing it is following in a path.


yeah, thats HUGE money. Lets not do what other teams are doing

rowand33
01-18-2008, 02:12 PM
Score reporting Dotel's agent is denying the rumor, and that six teams are interested in Dotel. Nice going to that newspaper.

bah

Gammons Peter
01-18-2008, 02:16 PM
Score reporting Dotel's agent is denying the rumor, and that six teams are interested in Dotel. Nice going to that newspaper.

wow, six teams are interested, Hey santo Dorf, lets see if he wants to come pitch for free for us

sox1970
01-18-2008, 02:40 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080118&content_id=2350518&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

spawn
01-18-2008, 02:43 PM
wow, six teams are interested, Hey santo Dorf, lets see if he wants to come pitch for free for us
Tengo una sensación que su agente puede tirar de un Boras y drving encima de su valor de mercado. Contarme como uno quién espera este reparto consigue hecho. :D:

champagne030
01-18-2008, 02:59 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080118&content_id=2350518&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Well, it better not come down to losing him over a $1M/yr. The Sox have plenty of money they budgeted to spend and we all know it won't be spent on the draft. The only reason we do not get him should be that he gets an offer that blows ours out of the water or he gets a legit shot at closing.

Flight #24
01-18-2008, 03:00 PM
yeah, thats HUGE money. Lets not do what other teams are doing

If Dotel was healthy, he'd be getting a deal similar to Linebrink - 3-5 yrs at $4-6M per. That's the going rate for relievers, and it's not just KW's rate - it's the market based on other signings.

Now he's not proven that he's healthy, so you can get him at a significant discount, 2/$11 (assuming the rumors are true).

There is no option to get him or another similar reliever at the $1M that you'd like. It's him at that rate or back to Bret Prinz. Or if you prefer, make a trade, giving up a reasonably valuable prospect for a young, cheap reliever like Juan Cruz.

Yes, baseball players are overpaid. And yes, they are overpaid relative to how overpaid they were a few years ago. But within the universe of baseball players, this is not overpaying.

oeo
01-18-2008, 03:06 PM
Well, it better not come down to losing him over a $1M/yr. The Sox have plenty of money they budgeted to spend and we all know it won't be spent on the draft. The only reason we do not get him should be that he gets an offer that blows ours out of the water or he gets a legit shot at closing.

Or he's not healthy...

santo=dorf
01-18-2008, 03:19 PM
wow, six teams are interested, Hey santo Dorf, lets see if he wants to come pitch for free for us
What is this even supposed to mean? I wouldn't mind Dotel, but I feel giving him $11 million for two seasons is overpaying considering he is coming off an yet another injury plagued season, which he signed a one year deal on. The deal before that was a rehab contract with the Yankees.

champagne030
01-18-2008, 03:23 PM
Or he's not healthy...

I agree, but the Sox must think he's ready to go if they're offering $11M.

oeo
01-18-2008, 03:24 PM
I agree, but the Sox must think he's ready to go if they're offering $11M.

That's if they actually offered that much. The whole story could be wrong.

santo=dorf
01-18-2008, 03:25 PM
I agree, but the Sox must think he's ready to go if they're offering $11M.
Aren't you usually questioning the Sox's judgment? :D: Since there has been flip flopping back and forth with 670 and 1000 AM with his agent coming out saying it's not close, how do we know for sure the Sox are offering $11 million?

Just sayin' :dunno:

rookieroy
01-18-2008, 03:53 PM
Two years and 11 million for that guy? Please. He's a middle reliever. There is no way for that kind of money.

thomas35forever
01-18-2008, 04:25 PM
I got a text message from a friend saying ESPN reported the deal as official as well as Brian Roberts signing with the Cubs. I'm not believing anything until I see an official release.

Sockinchisox
01-18-2008, 04:26 PM
I got a text message from a friend saying ESPN reported the deal as official as well as Brian Roberts signing with the Cubs. I'm not believing anything until I see an official release.

Roberts isn't a FA......

SoxNation05
01-18-2008, 04:32 PM
I got a text message from a friend saying ESPN reported the deal as official as well as Brian Roberts signing with the Cubs. I'm not believing anything until I see an official release.
Did your friend say the Sox sent PK and Crede for Kendrick, Santana and Adenhart aswell?

soltrain21
01-18-2008, 04:33 PM
I got a text message from a friend saying ESPN reported the deal as official as well as Brian Roberts signing with the Cubs. I'm not believing anything until I see an official release.

Your friend isn't a well researched liar.

JB98
01-18-2008, 04:35 PM
If true, the Sox overpaid. But it still wouldn't bother me as much as giving all that money to Linebrink. If this Dotel move doesn't work, it's only a two-year deal. No problem. When you sign a guy for four years, it better work.

MCHSoxFan
01-18-2008, 04:39 PM
Read ASAP!!!

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080118&content_id=2350518&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

SoxNation05
01-18-2008, 04:48 PM
Read ASAP!!!

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080118&content_id=2350518&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws
Thank You sir.

jdm2662
01-18-2008, 05:08 PM
Ah yes, the good ol story involving "sources"!!!! They never fail me!

DumpJerry
01-18-2008, 05:23 PM
Read ASAP!!!

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080118&content_id=2350518&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws
Shocking. I'm tellin' ya, if Bruce Levine can get his accuracy up to 10%, I'd listen to him.

Milkman43
01-18-2008, 06:09 PM
White Sox appear to be close to or in the race to signing RHP Octavio Dotel.
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080118&content_id=2350518&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

delben91
01-18-2008, 06:19 PM
http://www.yanks-suck.com/images/dumbyankfan.gif

Looks like it hurt!

(Sorry, there's like a 10 page thread on it in What's the Score?)

Unregistered
01-18-2008, 06:22 PM
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/797/darthvaderni1.jpg

*breathing*

Sockinchisox
01-18-2008, 06:23 PM
Check WTS.

btrain929
01-18-2008, 06:26 PM
WSI Regular my ass.........

YourPonyDied
01-18-2008, 06:27 PM
Octavio a No No

sullythered
01-18-2008, 06:46 PM
no kidding?

Optipessimism
01-18-2008, 06:51 PM
I hope before the Sox spend another $4-5mil+ for a reliever they address the need for a veteran long reliever who doesn't suck. I can't believe they would seriously entertain the idea of dropping that much money on another one inning pitcher when the rotation 3-5 is full of question marks and unlikely to provide enough innings to keep the bullpen fresh.

btrain929
01-18-2008, 07:04 PM
I hope before the Sox spend another $4-5mil+ for a reliever they address the need for a veteran long reliever who doesn't suck. I can't believe they would seriously entertain the idea of dropping that much money on another one inning pitcher when the rotation 3-5 is full of question marks and unlikely to provide enough innings to keep the bullpen fresh.

What veteran long reliever that doesn't suck is out there that you want?

If they were a long reliever that doesn't suck, they'd be a starter.....

gr8mexico
01-18-2008, 07:04 PM
I hope before the Sox spend another $4-5mil+ for a reliever they address the need for a veteran long reliever who doesn't suck. I can't believe they would seriously entertain the idea of dropping that much money on another one inning pitcher when the rotation 3-5 is full of question marks and unlikely to provide enough innings to keep the bullpen fresh.
Ok the 3rd,4th and the 5th spot are full of question marks. Who would you spend money on that improve the rotation? I think Gavin Floyd could do the exact same thing any other pitcher in the FA market can do. Why spend money on Garbage

Optipessimism
01-18-2008, 07:13 PM
What veteran long reliever that doesn't suck is out there that you want?

If they were a long reliever that doesn't suck, they'd be a starter.....

No, that's not true at all. Most bullpens are filled with failed starters. Would you say Jenks, for example, sucks? Long relievers might be, if they aren't already, the most valuable part of a bullpen. They save your bullpen, allow you to take out starters, allow you to start a veteran in a DH instead of a callup, etc. They pitch a lot of innings. The more respectable innings you throw the better you are. I'd take a bullpen with a great long reliever and a mediocre closer over a pen with some garbage LR and an elite closer like we've had for the last two years.

As for who I'd like, Juan Cruz would be the guy I'd want to see us target specifically, but if that can't be arranged then I'd like to see us make a play at Julian Taveras or someone of that ilk. We need someone who can work out of the pen in different roles, spot start, and eat up innings without Nick Masseting all over the place. If we don't have that, I guarantee you our bullpen will suck again, and it doesn't matter how much more money we throw at one-inning set-up men.

Optipessimism
01-18-2008, 07:16 PM
Ok the 3rd,4th and the 5th spot are full of question marks. Who would you spend money on that improve the rotation? I think Gavin Floyd could do the exact same thing any other pitcher in the FA market can do. Why spend money on Garbage

You're missing the point. The Sox don't look like they are going to seriously improve the rotation, that's why you need to seriously improve the front of the bullpen. If our 3-5 starters are unreliable, pitching anywhere from 4-7 innings each start, then our bullpen is going to get a lot more work. You can't keep running out set-up men in the fifth and sixth innings; you need someone to come in to work 2-3 innings at a time and keep you in the game. You need to keep the back of your bullpen fresh in order to give them the best chance of being effective all year long.

btrain929
01-18-2008, 07:26 PM
No, that's not true at all. Most bullpens are filled with failed starters. Would you say Jenks, for example, sucks? Long relievers might be, if they aren't already, the most valuable part of a bullpen. They save your bullpen, allow you to take out starters, allow you to start a veteran in a DH instead of a callup, etc. They pitch a lot of innings. The more respectable innings you throw the better you are. I'd take a bullpen with a great long reliever and a mediocre closer over a pen with some garbage LR and an elite closer like we've had for the last two years.

As for who I'd like, Juan Cruz would be the guy I'd want to see us target specifically, but if that can't be arranged then I'd like to see us make a play at Julian Taveras or someone of that ilk. We need someone who can work out of the pen in different roles, spot start, and eat up innings without Nick Masseting all over the place. If we don't have that, I guarantee you our bullpen will suck again, and it doesn't matter how much more money we throw at one-inning set-up men.

So after all that babble, you list 2 names, one that just resigned with the DBacks and isn't available. Tavarez, in the last 2 years, and put up era's of 4.5 and 5.1. Is he the "great long reliever" our team is missing? Please.

If we need a spot start, we'll bring up Broadway if he already isn't up with the big league squad. Plus, I'm pretty sure Masset did good in his 2 long outings (start vs Cubs and after Buehrle got hit in the arm early in the year). Oh, by the way, they cost the league minimum.

Lack of long relievers haven't been our problem the past few years. At the end of '06, our hitting disappeared plus the lack of Buehrle and Contreras doomed us, and in '07 our 1 inning guys sucked. If Thornton and Macdougal pitched like they did in '06, it would have made a huge difference record-wise.

So........again. Who do you think fits this role that's available and actually would be an upgrade to our bullpen that would be an obvious upgrade over a Dotel signing?

SoxxoS
01-18-2008, 07:47 PM
Plus, I'm pretty sure Masset did good in his 2 long outings (start vs Cubs and after Buehrle got hit in the arm early in the year). Oh, by the way, they cost the league minimum.



Please tell me you are not basing a guy doing well in a role b/c of two starts last year - You have his whole minor league track record to see what he really is...and what you find is that he SUCKS.

Madscout
01-18-2008, 07:52 PM
Please tell me you are not basing a guy doing well in a role b/c of two starts last year - You have his whole minor league track record to see what he really is...and what you find is that he SUCKS.

I don't think that was the point. I think the point was why go out and get a guy that sucks for a lot of money, when we have guys that suck a tiny bit more that don't cost a lot. I, for one, do not want to be paying 5 mil a year for every mediocre reliver in our pen, thank you.

Optipessimism
01-18-2008, 07:54 PM
So after all that babble, you list 2 names, one that just resigned with the DBacks and isn't available. Tavarez, in the last 2 years, and put up era's of 4.5 and 5.1. Is he the "great long reliever" our team is missing? Please.

If we need a spot start, we'll bring up Broadway if he already isn't up with the big league squad. Plus, I'm pretty sure Masset did good in his 2 long outings (start vs Cubs and after Buehrle got hit in the arm early in the year). Oh, by the way, they cost the league minimum.

Lack of long relievers haven't been our problem the past few years. At the end of '06, our hitting disappeared plus the lack of Buehrle and Contreras doomed us, and in '07 our 1 inning guys sucked. If Thornton and Macdougal pitched like they did in '06, it would have made a huge difference record-wise.

So........again. Who do you think fits this role that's available and actually would be an upgrade to our bullpen that would be an obvious upgrade over a Dotel signing?

1. You call my post "babble" yet you defend Nick Masset?
2. Cruz is available like anyone else for the right price. What is that price? Who knows? I don't. Just throwing out a name.
3. Masset sucks. That's why he was sent down.
4. ERA isn't as important as you think when talking about relievers. If you want to look at it though, he threw 134.2 innings last year working out of the bullpen and starting rotation with an ERA of 5.15, lower than Danks, Contreras, and Floyd, which is 3/5 of our rotation. in '06 Taverez worked 98.2 IP. He's versatile and he can work many innings. That is what we need.
5. McCarthy wasn't a reliable LR in '06 as he gave up too many home runs. He contributed to the problem and the Sox would have been better IMO with a veteran in that role. Last year we didn't have a LR at all. Masset tried but failed miserably.
6. In '06 we had a rotation of 5 veterans. Last year we had a rotation of 4 veterans, and going into the season, Jose wasn't looked at as a problem. In '08 we're going in with three veterans, including Jose who is coming off a very bad year. Danks and Floyd aren't going to supply a lot of innings out of the rotation. We'll need more work out of the pen, and you can't use the same one-inning guys day in and day out.
7. Broadway, or any other rookie, doesn't need to occupy that role. Sometimes those pitchers work 2-3 days in a row, and sometimes they'll sit for almost a week. On top of that, you don't know what you are going to get out of a rookie in a pressure situation, whereas with a veteran you at least know that he's had success before in that situation and has experience. If you feel like throwing another rookie into a vital spot in the bullpen, go ahead and preach it. It hasn't worked the last two years and it likely isn't going to work next year either.

soxinem1
01-18-2008, 07:59 PM
In all fairness, I like Dotel as a set up guy.

Look at his history, that's where he had the most success.

He may not hit 99-100 MPH like he did with NYM or HOU, but he is a high K/IP guy for a team that sorely needs more strikeout pitchers.

btrain929
01-18-2008, 08:08 PM
Give me a solid 8th inning guy and a solid closer, and we should be fine. Linebrink/Dotel would be a great combo for 8th innings. You act like Danks and Floyd are going to last 2/3 of an inning with every start and that we need some guy to come in and get us to the 6th out of the pen, which obviously isn't true.

And I wasn't defending Masset. He had his chance last year, and didn't take advantage of it. BUT, as a long reliever, he did fine. As a specialist or one inning person, he was terrible. Don't ask me why that is, but that's what he showed last year.

I have no idea about your infascination with a long reliever. The main need for one in a game is when your starter gets shelled and you're getting killed. So you want to trade more young talent that we don't have for a veteran guy to pitch when we're getting killed. Greaaaaat.

Now when you say long relief, if you mean 2 innings, do you really feel that Thornton or Linebrink or even Wasserman can't pitch 2 innings at a time? They won't be pitching 2 innings at a time 4 times a week, so IF we ever need them to do it, I'm sure we can handle it.

Either way, you haven't proposed any deal or proposed a signing of anybody that would be better for our bullpen than Dotel..........

sullythered
01-18-2008, 08:18 PM
I have no idea what infascination is, but long relief is niether valuable nor important. I'll take 6 closer-types every time.

Optipessimism
01-18-2008, 08:24 PM
Give me a solid 8th inning guy and a solid closer, and we should be fine. Linebrink/Dotel would be a great combo for 8th innings. You act like Danks and Floyd are going to last 2/3 of an inning with every start and that we need some guy to come in and get us to the 6th out of the pen, which obviously isn't true.

And I wasn't defending Masset. He had his chance last year, and didn't take advantage of it. BUT, as a long reliever, he did fine. As a specialist or one inning person, he was terrible. Don't ask me why that is, but that's what he showed last year.

I have no idea about your infascination with a long reliever. The main need for one in a game is when your starter gets shelled and you're getting killed. So you want to trade more young talent that we don't have for a veteran guy to pitch when we're getting killed. Greaaaaat.

Now when you say long relief, if you mean 2 innings, do you really feel that Thornton or Linebrink or even Wasserman can't pitch 2 innings at a time? They won't be pitching 2 innings at a time 4 times a week, so IF we ever need them to do it, I'm sure we can handle it.

Either way, you haven't proposed any deal or proposed a signing of anybody that would be better for our bullpen than Dotel..........
I would debate this with you further but your use of the word "infascination" tells me I would get nowhere.

Optipessimism
01-18-2008, 08:31 PM
I have no idea what infascination is, but long relief is niether valuable nor important. I'll take 6 closer-types every time.

I would too, but only after taking 5 SP capable of working 200+ IP each season. Since we're not going to get enough innings out of the rotation, we need to make up for that somewhere.

BTW, Dotel has worked a total of 56 IP from 2005-2007. He's not going to help. Spending that kind of money on him is a waste.

sullythered
01-18-2008, 08:39 PM
Meh. If the starters don't come up big, no amount of long relief is gonna matter, anyway. Also, this would be the year, for Dotel, that tommy-john guys are historically back to normal.

drewcifer
01-18-2008, 08:43 PM
I would too, but only after taking 5 SP capable of working 200+ IP each season. Since we're not going to get enough innings out of the rotation, we need to make up for that somewhere.

BTW, Dotel has worked a total of 56 IP from 2005-2007. He's not going to help. Spending that kind of money on him is a waste.

Completely agree.

champagne030
01-18-2008, 09:39 PM
Aren't you usually questioning the Sox's judgment? :D: Since there has been flip flopping back and forth with 670 and 1000 AM with his agent coming out saying it's not close, how do we know for sure the Sox are offering $11 million?

Just sayin' :dunno:

I don't know for sure the Sox are offering $11M. Call me nuts, but I'd assume that the Sox are at least kicking the tires and his agent has probably put the word out that it will cost at least $11M/2YR.

I do question the Sox's judgement. A lot. That's based on them usually throwing nickles around like manhole covers and I don't think they'd throw $5M+/Yr at an injured guy. They could get Colon for that guaranteed money, IMO.

The reason this move has me excited is I thought, coming into this offseason, Dotel was the best possible guy available. Yes, I'd rather have Cordero, but he wasn't going to come to be a setup guy and we weren't going to pay closer money. It's a risk, but when healthy Dotel blows Linebrink away as a setup guy.

Sign Dotel, get a CF, leadoff hitter and a legit SP and maybe we can contend for the division this year.

rdivaldi
01-18-2008, 10:56 PM
BTW, Dotel has worked a total of 56 IP from 2005-2007.

Guys a lot of you are using this 56 IP stat pretty dishonestly. Considering the guy had Tommy John in 2005, it's meaningless to keep bringing up that number.

Sockinchisox
01-18-2008, 11:01 PM
Dave van Dyck says the Sox are the favorites to sign Dotel and says something official could come at the end of the weekend at the earliest.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080118chicago_white_sox_octavio_dotel,1,3219460.st ory?coll=cs_tab01_whitesox_layout

thedudeabides
01-19-2008, 12:41 AM
No, that's not true at all. Most bullpens are filled with failed starters. Would you say Jenks, for example, sucks? Long relievers might be, if they aren't already, the most valuable part of a bullpen. They save your bullpen, allow you to take out starters, allow you to start a veteran in a DH instead of a callup, etc. They pitch a lot of innings. The more respectable innings you throw the better you are. I'd take a bullpen with a great long reliever and a mediocre closer over a pen with some garbage LR and an elite closer like we've had for the last two years.

As for who I'd like, Juan Cruz would be the guy I'd want to see us target specifically, but if that can't be arranged then I'd like to see us make a play at Julian Taveras or someone of that ilk. We need someone who can work out of the pen in different roles, spot start, and eat up innings without Nick Masseting all over the place. If we don't have that, I guarantee you our bullpen will suck again, and it doesn't matter how much more money we throw at one-inning set-up men.

If your that worried about a long reliever the real concern is the starting staff. Long relievers and spot starters are the last guys in your bullpen. The stronger the back end of the bullpen is, the better your bullpen is. A guy like Dotel only improves your bullpen and moves the rest of the guys down a notch. The Sox have exhausted enough resources acquiring players for other positions. Spending more prospects on guys like Juan Cruz and Tavarez seems to be a waste when you can buy a guy that is already better than them. Sometimes you have to spend some money. It's a short term deal. A bad bullpen can kill a team. I don't want to see it happen again.

SoxKramer
01-19-2008, 02:09 AM
Will the Sox sign Octavio Dotel?

hi im skot
01-19-2008, 03:00 AM
Probably maybe.

hose
01-19-2008, 06:18 AM
No telling what Kenny will do.

FarWestChicago
01-19-2008, 07:29 AM
I
I do question the Sox's judgement.I'm completely stunned. :thud:

PalehosePlanet
01-19-2008, 08:16 AM
BTW, Dotel has worked a total of 56 IP from 2005-2007. He's not going to help. Spending that kind of money on him is a waste.

I disagree, I think signing Dotel gives us the best bullpen in the AL.

He had Tommy John surgery people, obviously his innings pitched will be low when looking at the last 3 years. He actually should have had the surgery in '04 because the symptoms were already there. He's back now and has closer stuff.

His presence in the pen will take pressure off of everyone.

I also think Macdougal (another former closer with excellent stuff) will bounce back especially with less pressure on him.

Domeshot17
01-19-2008, 09:03 AM
I agree with I think Mac will bounce back. I know people are stat geeks, but playing through college there are so many other factors. To get the sick movement Macdougal has on his fastball isn't all natural, its partly how he grips and holds the ball. Now when you press, you tend to grip a bat tighter, put more pressure on the seam to try and create an extra bite, over throw, stiffen your hands on a ground ball etc. For Macdougal, just the slightest bit more pressure is going to make his cutter, his out pitch, uncontrollable. When he presses and presses, it continues to happen. He has an offseason now to relax, refind it, work on his mechanics, and come back strong. That can be very effective especially if he is now looking to be our 6th-early 7th guy.

I really like Dotel. I think Tommy John has become such a refined, good thing for pitchers. The fact he has low milage over the last few years because of this surgery actually makes me like him more. In his mid 30s now, he has the arm of a 31 year old, so signing him until hes 36-37 is just a little less risky.

PalehosePlanet
01-19-2008, 09:26 AM
I have no idea what infascination is, but long relief is niether valuable nor important. I'll take 6 closer-types every time.

Infascination? I like it! It's a blending of infatuation and fascination. Hell... people make up words and combine two words to make a new word all the time (E.G. insert Hyper as a prefix to any word nowadays and it flies.)

It would have been cooler had it been intentional, but I like it anyway.

You go btrain!!!

Brian26
01-19-2008, 10:07 AM
The Score reports that White Sox sources say the Dotel signing is very close to a reality....sometime this week, fwiw.

ZombieRob
01-19-2008, 10:29 AM
Anyone have a scouting report on him?I tried a search ,just came up with stats.

Sockinchisox
01-19-2008, 10:43 AM
The Score reports that White Sox sources say the Dotel signing is very close to a reality....sometime this week, fwiw.

So...the Orioles will be signing him sometime today, right?

peeonwrigley
01-19-2008, 10:46 AM
Anyone have a scouting report on him?I tried a search ,just came up with stats.

Ache-y

sullythered
01-19-2008, 10:56 AM
Infascination? I like it! It's a blending of infatuation and fascination. Hell... people make up words and combine two words to make a new word all the time (E.G. insert Hyper as a prefix to any word nowadays and it flies.)

It would have been cooler had it been intentional, but I like it anyway.

You go btrain!!!

That is hyper-observant.

PalehosePlanet
01-19-2008, 11:04 AM
That is hyper-observant.

:rolling: Nice!

PalehosePlanet
01-19-2008, 11:07 AM
Ache-y

96-98 on the fastball with movement and a wicked slider in the low 90's.

Of course if he was with the Tigers and pitching at Comerica the fastball would clock in at 102.

btrain929
01-19-2008, 11:32 AM
Infascination? I like it! It's a blending of infatuation and fascination. Hell... people make up words and combine two words to make a new word all the time (E.G. insert Hyper as a prefix to any word nowadays and it flies.)

It would have been cooler had it been intentional, but I like it anyway.

You go btrain!!!

It sounded right in my head......

I think all the effort I was putting in to make the point that the long reliever in your pen is not going to make or break your team made me so crazy I tried to combine words to make my point. My college degree is looking at me with shame right now....:whiner:

Small words, BTrain, small words are ok.....

sullythered
01-19-2008, 11:58 AM
It sounded right in my head......

I think all the effort I was putting in to make the point that the long reliever in your pen is not going to make or break your team made me so crazy I tried to combine words to make my point. My college degree is looking at me with shame right now....:whiner:

Small words, BTrain, small words are ok.....

Happens to the best of us. I think your point was dead-on, though.

Tragg
01-19-2008, 04:07 PM
He's a middle reliever. We'll see if he's any better than the bevy of others Williams has acquired in the last year.
With the Astros, he was a gopher ball machine.
Hopefully, we don't have to give up talent - i.e. draft choices - for him.

Sockinchisox
01-19-2008, 04:13 PM
He's a middle reliever. We'll see if he's any better than the bevy of others Williams has acquired in the last year.
With the Astros, he was a gopher ball machine.
Hopefully, we don't have to give up talent - i.e. draft choices - for him.

Atlanta never offered him arbitration.

delben91
01-19-2008, 04:23 PM
He's a middle reliever. We'll see if he's any better than the bevy of others Williams has acquired in the last year.
With the Astros, he was a gopher ball machine.
Hopefully, we don't have to give up talent - i.e. draft choices - for him.

Obviously the Sox relief corps in 2007 wasn't cutting it, so it's time to try out some new arms.

Not accusing you, but when we don't change players, people *****, and then when we do change players, people ***** some more.

Ah the glory of WSI. :rolleyes:

btrain929
01-19-2008, 04:48 PM
If the Dotel signing falls thru, another intriguing arm out there that I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on is Jorge Julio. He has closer experience, pretty good stuff, and is only 29. I think walks/control has always been his downside, but he K's a batter per inning and usually gives up less hits than IP's. If the price is right (1yr/2.5-3 mil or 2 yrs/6 mil), I wouldn't mind it. But I really don't have any idea what the market is for him or what he's looking for contract-wise.

soxinem1
01-19-2008, 05:35 PM
If the Dotel signing falls thru, another intriguing arm out there that I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on is Jorge Julio. He has closer experience, pretty good stuff, and is only 29. I think walks/control has always been his downside, but he K's a batter per inning and usually gives up less hits than IP's. If the price is right (1yr/2.5-3 mil or 2 yrs/6 mil), I wouldn't mind it. But I really don't have any idea what the market is for him or what he's looking for contract-wise.

I thought about Julio and Armando Benitez, both live arms with 10-cent heads.

It is no coincidence that both have given Apartment hunting services a lot of business in the last few years.

Optipessimism
01-19-2008, 10:16 PM
It sounded right in my head......

I think all the effort I was putting in to make the point that the long reliever in your pen is not going to make or break your team made me so crazy I tried to combine words to make my point. My college degree is looking at me with shame right now....:whiner:

Small words, BTrain, small words are ok.....

I understand that, it was a long post. We'll have to agree to disagree on this then. Besides, as already mentioned, making up words is fun. It's vocabulastic!

spiffie
01-19-2008, 10:22 PM
He's a middle reliever.
Funny, he had more saves in one season (2004) than any reliever on the 2005 Sox had in their career going into that season.

cwsfannick
01-19-2008, 10:36 PM
Sorry, but I don't want journeymen relievers who have live arms, but can't find the strike zone. That is what did bullpen in last year.

wsgdf
01-19-2008, 11:23 PM
Sorry, but I don't want journeymen relievers who have live arms, but can't find the strike zone. That is what did bullpen in last year.

41 Ks in 30 2/3 innings. If he can't find the strike zone, he must be pitching against the worst hitters ever.

oeo
01-19-2008, 11:49 PM
Sorry, but I don't want journeymen relievers who have live arms, but can't find the strike zone. That is what did bullpen in last year.

What the hell are you talking about? Dotel has never had a problem finding the strikezone.

gr8mexico
01-19-2008, 11:56 PM
Sorry, but I don't want journeymen relievers who have live arms, but can't find the strike zone. That is what did bullpen in last year.
PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH BEFORE POSTING!!!!!!:?:

Tragg
01-20-2008, 12:04 AM
Funny, he had more saves in one season (2004) than any reliever on the 2005 Sox had in their career going into that season.The fact is that the Sox had 2 pitchers in the 2005 bullpen that could be considered ceiling middle relievers: Politte (who had a career year in 2005; and Vizcaino). If Dotel makes that 2005 bullpen, he makes it as the last pitcher and that's a big maybe. I'm not sure what your point is anyway - he's not a middle reliever today because he had a bunch of saves 4 years ago (and 18 cumulatively in the last 3 seasons)?

If you want to make a comparison, compare what he did last year (11 saves with the mighty Royals - a closer credential if there ever was one) going into this season, to what Hermanson (17 saves; 18 starts in 2004), Shingo (18 saves in 2004) and others had going into 2005.
Or maybe note that in 2005 the Sox used young pitchers sucessfully in key situations (Cotts, McCarthy and Jenks). That highly successful approach of using young pitchers, of course, was discarded the last 1.5 seasons in favor of ceiling middle relievers, most, if not all, of whom have stunk. The culmination was giving the hapless 80 year old meyers key September bullpen work.

Dotel is about like Howry. For better or worse. He's better than most of last year's pen, but that's an awfully low bar. It's not my money, so pay what ye will, but I hope the sox don't lose a draft choice.

wsgdf
01-20-2008, 01:13 AM
The fact is that the Sox had 2 pitchers in the 2005 bullpen that could be considered ceiling middle relievers: Politte (who had a career year in 2005; and Vizcaino). If Dotel makes that 2005 bullpen, he makes it as the last pitcher and that's a big maybe. I'm not sure what your point is anyway - he's not a middle reliever today because he had a bunch of saves 4 years ago (and 18 cumulatively in the last 3 seasons)?

Do you forget what the pen looked like when the season started? Politte was no guarantee, Hermanson was no guarantee, Takatsu was the closer. Please, the Dotel now would have easily made that pen and the Dotel then would have been a no brainer.

If you want to make a comparison, compare what he did last year (11 saves with the mighty Royals - a closer credential if there ever was one) going into this season, to what Hermanson (17 saves; 18 starts in 2004), Shingo (18 saves in 2004) and others had going into 2005.

I kind of just did. So?

Or maybe note that in 2005 the Sox used young pitchers sucessfully in key situations (Cotts, McCarthy and Jenks). That highly successful approach of using young pitchers, of course, was discarded the last 1.5 seasons in favor of ceiling middle relievers, most, if not all, of whom have stunk. The culmination was giving the hapless 80 year old meyers key September bullpen work.

The approach didn't change, the pitchers just got bad. They didn't stop using Cotts and McCarthy, Cotts and McCarthy flat out sucked in 2006. In 2007, they started out with YOUNG hard throwing guys. It worked for a month, and then they sucked. There was no change in philosophy, they just don't want to use guys that get hammered all over the park.

Dotel is about like Howry. For better or worse. He's better than most of last year's pen, but that's an awfully low bar. It's not my money, so pay what ye will, but I hope the sox don't lose a draft choice.

Dotel has a much better chance of being a great setup man, then anyone ever would have given Politte or Cotts the chance of having in 2005. If it costs a little more to increase the likelihood of having a dominant bullpen guy, then I like the idea of paying it. We're not rebuilding, so you might as well take a shot.

spiffie
01-20-2008, 04:35 AM
The fact is that the Sox had 2 pitchers in the 2005 bullpen that could be considered ceiling middle relievers: Politte (who had a career year in 2005; and Vizcaino). If Dotel makes that 2005 bullpen, he makes it as the last pitcher and that's a big maybe. I'm not sure what your point is anyway - he's not a middle reliever today because he had a bunch of saves 4 years ago (and 18 cumulatively in the last 3 seasons)?

If you want to make a comparison, compare what he did last year (11 saves with the mighty Royals - a closer credential if there ever was one) going into this season, to what Hermanson (17 saves; 18 starts in 2004), Shingo (18 saves in 2004) and others had going into 2005.
Or maybe note that in 2005 the Sox used young pitchers sucessfully in key situations (Cotts, McCarthy and Jenks). That highly successful approach of using young pitchers, of course, was discarded the last 1.5 seasons in favor of ceiling middle relievers, most, if not all, of whom have stunk. The culmination was giving the hapless 80 year old meyers key September bullpen work.

Dotel is about like Howry. For better or worse. He's better than most of last year's pen, but that's an awfully low bar. It's not my money, so pay what ye will, but I hope the sox don't lose a draft choice.
First, Dotel...you point to the last 3 seasons stats totally devoid of context. During 2005 and 2006 Dotel pitched a total of 25 innings due to injury, and was serving as the closer for the Royals until he was traded last year. During his time as closer he had 11 saves over 48 games, so over a full year he would have been a 35+ save closer. Kind of like he was in 2004, when he got a chance to close after being blocked for a few years by some schlub named Billy Wagner.

In 2005 if the Sox had somehow acquired Dotel in that offseason he likely would have been named the closer, or at absolute worst the 8th inning setup man, considering in 2004 he had 36 saves and 122 K's in 85 innings. The idea that he would have been slotted in behind Neal Cotts or Luis Vizcaino at that point is beyond laughable and right into the totally absurd.

As for young pitchers, I'm not quite sure where McCarthy fits into discussing the 2005 bullpen, considering he made a grand total of 2 bullpen appearances that year. They did use Neal Cotts very well that year when he was 25. Of course, he and Jenks were the only 2 major names in the pen under the age of 30 that year, and of the 401 2/3 innings of relief thrown for the Sox that year, about 2/3 of them were thrown by guys over 30. Last year's team of course used a lot of old guys...there was Myers who threw a whopping 13 2/3 innings, and then there was...well, actually everyone else in the pen was 30 or younger, much younger than most of the 2005 bullpen. The ages of the 6 relief guys with the most innings were 26, 22, 30, 30, 29, 25.

The point is that a healthy Dotel is a closer-caliber pitcher. He is a far better option if healthy to be the setup man than anyone we have internally, and would be the first or second option to step in should something happen to Jenks. To make it sound like the Sox would be dumping 11 million on some guy you bring in for 6th inning work on a day when Floyd is getting shelled is ridiculous. Howry is a better comparison, but if Dotel is healthy, and I sincerely hope that they would not sign him unless they are damn sure that he can go a full season at a high level, his ceiling is higher than Howry's.

FarWestChicago
01-20-2008, 07:16 AM
He's called Blotel for a reason.

Tragg
01-20-2008, 09:12 AM
The approach didn't change, the pitchers just got bad. They didn't stop using Cotts and McCarthy, Cotts and McCarthy flat out sucked in 2006. In 2007, they started out with YOUNG hard throwing guys. It worked for a month, and then they sucked. There was no change in philosophy, they just don't want to use guys that get hammered all over the park.


The approach has significantly changed. The Sox have traded or acquired more middle reliever profile players in the last 1.5 years than we have in Williams aggregate tenure prior. The use of the woeful Meyers in September (and Bukvich at all) solidifies that.
It's little wonder that Billy Beane traded for Dotel. He's the perfect Beane type of player - his stats look way better than he is in reality. The stats don't distinguish a home run during garbage time from the Dotel specialty - the 9th inning 3 run bomb, given up when you have a 2 run lead.
He's Howry.
I just hope that an organization so farm-starved as this one isn't giving up draft choices for this level of player.

Too bad they couldn't get comfortable with Colon or someone like that - much prefer him in the rotation, with the loser of the danks/floyd battle going to the bullpen, than Danks, Floyd and Dotel.

santo=dorf
01-20-2008, 09:29 AM
Tragg, again..........Atlanta never offered him arbitration.

Stop mentioning the draft picks. I aslo believe he was a type B, so the Sox would not have lost a pick, Atlanta would just gain one.

santo=dorf
01-20-2008, 09:34 AM
The stats don't distinguish a home run during garbage time from the Dotel specialty - the 9th inning 3 run bomb, given up when you have a 2 run lead.

Sure they do (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/psplit.cgi?n1=doteloc01&year=00). FWIW, Ocativo is a noticably different pitcher when it is "late and close" (Late & Close are PA in the 7th or later with the batting team tied, ahead by one, or the tying run at least on deck.) Then again it's based on only 80 PA's.

Corlose 15
01-20-2008, 10:07 AM
The approach has significantly changed. The Sox have traded or acquired more middle reliever profile players in the last 1.5 years than we have in Williams aggregate tenure prior. The use of the woeful Meyers in September (and Bukvich at all) solidifies that.

What other choices did they have at that point? They brought in young, talented arms like Sisco, Aardsma, and Masset at the beginning of the year and all three of them bombed horribly. None of those guys are older than 26.

They even gave Dewon Day a shot and he stunk. Meyers and Bukvich were last resorts because everybody else had failed. I don't see what the problem is.

champagne030
01-20-2008, 11:25 AM
He's called Blotel for a reason.

Don't let your emotions concerning Billy Beane get the best of you. I'd hate to know what all of our relievers, outside of Jenks, are known as if Dotel is known as Blotel.

wsgdf
01-20-2008, 11:26 AM
Sure they do (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/psplit.cgi?n1=doteloc01&year=00). FWIW, Ocativo is a noticably different pitcher when it is "late and close" (Late & Close are PA in the 7th or later with the batting team tied, ahead by one, or the tying run at least on deck.) Then again it's based on only 80 PA's.


Not only is that only 80 PAs, but they were also all in 2007 (click on the Late and Close link on the left). Tough to take anything meaningful out of that.

santo=dorf
01-20-2008, 11:36 AM
Not only is that only 80 PAs, but they were also all in 2007 (click on the Late and Close link on the left). Tough to take anything meaningful out of that.
No, that was career. It just appears the "late and close" wasn't added until 2007. Click on the other years and you will see it doesn't appear under the "clutch" stats.
ESPN.com has them.
Here's the three year split http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=6111&type=pitching3&three=1

russ99
01-20-2008, 01:10 PM
What other choices did they have at that point? They brought in young, talented arms like Sisco, Aardsma, and Masset at the beginning of the year and all three of them bombed horribly. None of those guys are older than 26.

They even gave Dewon Day a shot and he stunk. Meyers and Bukvich were last resorts because everybody else had failed. I don't see what the problem is.

And I was carping for Kenny to make a deal for an established reliever since May 1st of last year. It's one thing to mistakenly go with youth and all power arms at the start of the season, but it's entirely another compound that mistake and doom your season by bringing in AAA retreads, 40 year olds and green minor leaguers to fix the pen after the original plan bombed horribly.

Thankfully Kenny's realized his mistake by signing Linebrink, and Dotel would be a nice addition too, if it actually goes down.

cwsfannick
01-20-2008, 02:41 PM
PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH BEFORE POSTING!!!!!!:?:
I figured I was going to get killed for that post, because I didn't reference that I was commenting about wanting to add Jorge Julio or Benitez. It had nothing to do with Dotel, but my bad.

Mingo
01-20-2008, 03:38 PM
I don't post much because so many the posters here do a fine job of covering every opinion. So I'm surprised not to see a 100 post thread on the Sox possibly signing Dotel to join Linebrink and Jenks in the bullpen.

Hey - he's got the required stop in KC and coming off an injury - two items that seem to get KW's blood going.

I think it will be a great signing for the bullpen. It does look like he will have to be a Herm Schnieder project, though.

DumpJerry
01-20-2008, 03:42 PM
I don't post much because so many the posters here do a fine job of covering every opinion. So I'm surprised not to see a 100 post thread on the Sox possibly signing Dotel to join Linebrink and Jenks in the bullpen.

Hey - he's got the required stop in KC and coming off an injury - two items that seem to get KW's blood going.

I think it will be a great signing for the bullpen. It does look like he will have to be a Herm Schnieder project, though.
:searchfirst:

Mingo
01-20-2008, 05:38 PM
Vodoo,

Thanks for the directional assist. ;)

white sox bill
01-21-2008, 07:24 AM
Vodoo,

Thanks for the directional assist. ;)

Think of Vodoo as Directory Assistance:smile:

Discinfool23
01-21-2008, 01:57 PM
Rosenthal on Foxsports is saying that this is a done deal. Small article here:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7703382

Could be huge if he can stay healthy, but that is a big IF.

The Immigrant
01-21-2008, 02:02 PM
Rosenthal on Foxsports is saying that this is a done deal. Small article here:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7703382

Could be huge if he can stay healthy, but that is a big IF.

Rosenthal is typically reliable. This would be good news for Sox fans.

JermaineDye05
01-21-2008, 02:03 PM
Rosenthal on Foxsports is saying that this is a done deal. Small article here:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7703382

Could be huge if he can stay healthy, but that is a big IF.

I would like to thank you for posting this in the correct place. I don't know what I'd do if I saw another Dotel thread.

Discinfool23
01-21-2008, 02:06 PM
I would like to thank you for posting this in the correct place. I don't know what I'd do if I saw another Dotel thread.

No Problem. I may not post much, but I have been lurking here since about 04 and signed up in 05. I've learned where posts go for the most part :D:.

Taliesinrk
01-21-2008, 02:14 PM
I really think we need to go after colon. Either way we need a starter and the only two pieces, IMO, that could be used via trade would be konerko and Crede. If we trade Konerko it'd have to be for some kind of monster deal similar to the one proposed to arizona several weeks ago. It'd really have to better us for the future, while keeping us relatively the same now. I don't think that Crede will bring back any SP of substance right now.

JermaineDye05
01-21-2008, 02:16 PM
FWIW Rotoworld has it posted as a done deal as well.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playernews.aspx?sport=MLB

thedudeabides
01-21-2008, 02:16 PM
Rosenthal on Foxsports is saying that this is a done deal. Small article here:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7703382

Could be huge if he can stay healthy, but that is a big IF.

Rosenthal is definitely reliable. That's good news. I'm glad there is more of a proven veteran presence in the pen. :D:

Sockinchisox
01-21-2008, 02:42 PM
Levine says this will be official before the end of the day.

gr8mexico
01-21-2008, 02:46 PM
He should have no problem staying healthy because the White Sox wont have to rely on him that much.

eriqjaffe
01-21-2008, 02:49 PM
Levine says this will be official before the end of the day.Etched in stone!

I like this comment from the FoxSports site, purely for the spelling and grammar (or lack thereof):

Wow What a Waste of money. If linebrinkwas not help enough maybe he is not worth the overpaid contract he recieved. at least my brewers or braves did not waste there money resigning those guys. Also shows how dumb the soxs are. Then again just look at there bipolor manager, What a crazy guy he is.

Gammons Peter
01-21-2008, 02:49 PM
Hope its true, I was getting worried that it had fallen apart.

Gammons Peter
01-21-2008, 02:50 PM
Etched in stone!

I like this comment from the FoxSports site, purely for the spelling and grammar (or lack thereof):




I laughed at that too. What do you expect from a Brewer fan

julio-cruz
01-21-2008, 02:53 PM
they don't call 'em cheese heads for nothing!!

Gammons Peter
01-21-2008, 03:02 PM
a couple more sites say its a done deal (not exactly trust worthy sites)


http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
http://mlb-rumors.blogspot.com/

Gammons Peter
01-21-2008, 03:20 PM
espn has a story:

White Sox hoping to add Dotel to bullpen

Associated Press






Updated: January 21, 2008, 4:09 PM ET

Comment (http://myespn.go.com/conversation/story?id=3207135)
Email (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3207135#)
Print (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=3207135&type=story)

CHICAGO -- Right-hander Octavio Dotel (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6111) is in negotiations with the Chicago White Sox (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=cha) on a multiyear contract.


http://assets.espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/65x90/6111.jpg Dotel


Dotel hopes to get something done soon.
"We're talking," Dotel said Monday from Miami. "We're working on a deal."
The 34-year-old Dotel spent last season with the Kansas City Royals and Atlanta Braves (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=atl) but was limited to only 33 appearances and 30 2/3 innings because of a shoulder injury. He went 2-1 with a 4.11 ERA and was dealt from Kansas City to Atlanta at the trading deadline.
Dotel underwent reconstructive elbow surgery in 2005 while with Oakland, then pitched for the New York Yankees (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=nyy) the following year. He has 82 career saves in nine major league seasons.
The White Sox signed reliever Scott Linebrink (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6455) to a $19 million, four-year contract in November. Bobby Jenks (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7285) had 41 and 40 saves, respectively, in the past two seasons for Chicago.
Copyright 2008 by The Associated Press

soxtalker
01-21-2008, 03:30 PM
a couple more sites say its a done deal (not exactly trust worthy sites)


http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
http://mlb-rumors.blogspot.com/

I'm not as familiar with the blog, but this is exactly the sort of thing that mlbtraderumors does very well. They aren't claiming any secret source; all the links are provided.

DumpJerry
01-21-2008, 03:32 PM
It's official. He's ours.

Continue discussion here (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=96865).