PDA

View Full Version : Mitchell Report Committee Hearing


FireMariotti
01-15-2008, 10:53 AM
It's been on ESPN all morning. Bud Selig is giving his statement right now.

The biggest news to come out of the hearing so far is the possible legal ramifications of Miguel Tejada allegedly giving false statements to a federal agent. They compared it what Martha Stewart did when she was sent to jail.

Jerko
01-15-2008, 10:58 AM
One of the panelists brought up the 1919 Blackhawks scandal......

Selig's been rambling on for about 10 minutes now.

FireMariotti
01-15-2008, 11:00 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3197192&name=congressional_hearings

For those that cannot watch, Jayson Stark is providing a running blog on ESPN updating each part of the hearing.

Kogs35
01-15-2008, 11:02 AM
One of the panelists brought up the 1919 Blackhawks scandal......

Selig's been rambling on for about 10 minutes now.

he was comparing how they where kicked out of baseball then and how steriods users should have been kicked out now

voodoochile
01-15-2008, 11:03 AM
One of the panelists brought up the 1919 Blackhawks scandal......

Selig's been rambling on for about 10 minutes now.

Was there a player named Skateless Jake on that team? :tongue:

Jerko
01-15-2008, 11:06 AM
he was comparing how they where kicked out of baseball then and how steriods users should have been kicked out now

I agree with that, I just thought it was funny that he said Blackhawks...

doublem23
01-15-2008, 11:09 AM
Selig said Blackhawks?

:thud:

spawn
01-15-2008, 11:10 AM
Was there a player named Skateless Jake on that team? :tongue:
I think there was a "Toothless" Joe Jackson on that team...

Jerko
01-15-2008, 11:10 AM
Selig said Blackhawks?

:thud:

Not Selig, one of the panelists that was questioning Mitchell.

10:53 a.m. ET
Rep. Christopher Shays has been MLB's No. 1 basher on this committee for years, and he couldn't wait to pound away again. "Why should cheating be a matter of collective bargaining?" he pontificated at one point, before launching into a Black Sox reference. But Shays then made it obvious how little he actually follows baseball. You might not have known, for instance, that that Black Sox reference involved the "1919 Chicago Black Hawks."

doublem23
01-15-2008, 11:12 AM
Not Selig, one of the panelists that was questioning Mitchell.

Oh, that makes me feel a lot better. Did everyone just start laughing?

FireMariotti
01-15-2008, 11:12 AM
I agree with that, I just thought it was funny that he said Blackhawks...

Damnit, the Sox get snubbed again!

Jerko
01-15-2008, 11:13 AM
Oh, that makes me feel a lot better. Did everyone just start laughing?

I don't think anybody even caught it.

FireMariotti
01-15-2008, 11:14 AM
Oh, that makes me feel a lot better. Did everyone just start laughing?

It just kind of slipped by without incident. Nobody corrected the man either. It really wasn't a big deal since people knew what he meant

Kogs35
01-15-2008, 11:19 AM
when one of them was talking about palmerio's 3000th hit weather it happened before or after he was tested positive, he said 300th hit instead of 3000th hit.

Fenway
01-15-2008, 12:24 PM
I am now convinced that Mitchell has a 'smoking gun' on Clemens....

Given a chance to back off on Clemens Mitchell has done anything but...

It took more than 1 1/2 hours for the first mention of Roger Clemens, the star pitcher who figures prominently in the Mitchell Report and is scheduled to testify before the committee on Feb. 13, along with his former trainer, Brian McNamee. It was McNamee who told Mitchell that he injected Clemens with steroids and human growth hormone, charges Clemens repeatedly has denied.

"You continue to feel comfortable with Mr. McNamee's credibility?" Waxman asked.

"We believe that the statements provided to us were truthful," Mitchell said.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2008/01/15/mitchell_selig_fehr_head_to_hill/?page=2

Frontman
01-15-2008, 12:29 PM
This is just scathing review of baseball as a whole. The one Senator's questions about the Giants organization alone show how complicit owners/coaches/even the Commissioner's office itself was turning a blind eye towards this.

Madvora
01-15-2008, 01:03 PM
If Tejada ends up going to jail for this, it'll be huge for GMs deciding whether or not to sign guys like Roberts and others in the report. Who knows who these guys talked to in the past and what they said.

SoxyStu
01-15-2008, 01:57 PM
I am now convinced that Mitchell has a 'smoking gun' on Clemens....

Given a chance to back off on Clemens Mitchell has done anything but...

It took more than 1 1/2 hours for the first mention of Roger Clemens, the star pitcher who figures prominently in the Mitchell Report and is scheduled to testify before the committee on Feb. 13, along with his former trainer, Brian McNamee. It was McNamee who told Mitchell that he injected Clemens with steroids and human growth hormone, charges Clemens repeatedly has denied.

"You continue to feel comfortable with Mr. McNamee's credibility?" Waxman asked.

"We believe that the statements provided to us were truthful," Mitchell said.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2008/01/15/mitchell_selig_fehr_head_to_hill/?page=2

I gotta disagree with you here; even though I'd love for you to be correct. First, if Mitchell had a "smoking gun," then it would have most definitely been in the report. Second, the Mitchell quote you highlighted in bold is something Mitchell must say. Think about it a second...had Mitchell said anything to the contrary regarding McNamee's credibility (not being satisfactory), wouldn't that open up Pandora's box to the credibility of the entire report, or even Mitchell himself (yes, yes, I understand some here are not convinced of his credibility in the first place; that's a separate issue)? Mitchell has to stand by his published findings; he cannot back off. This quote convinces me of nothing, really.

Nellie_Fox
01-15-2008, 02:24 PM
when one of them was talking about palmerio's 3000th hit weather it happened before or after he was tested positive, he said 300th hit instead of 3000th hit.Yeah, but when he was asked to repeat the question, he said 3000th.

Fenway
01-15-2008, 02:38 PM
I gotta disagree with you here; even though I'd love for you to be correct. First, if Mitchell had a "smoking gun," then it would have most definitely been in the report. Second, the Mitchell quote you highlighted in bold is something Mitchell must say. Think about it a second...had Mitchell said anything to the contrary regarding McNamee's credibility (not being satisfactory), wouldn't that open up Pandora's box to the credibility of the entire report, or even Mitchell himself (yes, yes, I understand some here are not convinced of his credibility in the first place; that's a separate issue)? Mitchell has to stand by his published findings; he cannot back off. This quote convinces me of nothing, really.

I know people who know the former Senator from Maine well....they can not believe he would sign off on this if there wasn't something more than we know.

Mitchell wants baseball to move on but what this report has done is put an even bigger cloud over the game.

Kogs35
01-15-2008, 02:50 PM
I know people who know the former Senator from Maine well....they can not believe he would sign off on this if there wasn't something more than we know.

Mitchell wants baseball to move on but what this report has done is put an even bigger cloud over the game.

how can you go forward when guys broke the law?

Oblong
01-15-2008, 03:01 PM
I think he means move on in terms of the report not being inclusive therefore punishment would be incomplete. There's users out there not in the report who would have gotten away with it. If they can't punish everybody then don't punish anybody because it's still the results of only a couple of distributors and seeing how big of an effect they had then it stands to reason there's a lot more out there. I happen to agree with that. What happens is by going after guys like Clemens and Tejada, the big names, then it can cloud the overall issue. It becomes the Clemens/Tejada report. It's a sin that baseball as a whole has to share and live with.

Paulwny
01-15-2008, 03:11 PM
What I found amazing was that in 2006 there were 28 therapeutic exemptions given for attention deficit disorder, in 2007 over 100 exemptions were given yet, it appears no "red flag" went up in MLB.

voodoochile
01-15-2008, 03:25 PM
What I found amazing was that in 2006 there were 28 therapeutic exemptions given for attention deficit disorder, in 2007 over 100 exemptions were given yet, it appears no "red flag" went up in MLB.

See there you go assuming the roids, stimulants and hence artificially created records aren't exactly what Selig and the rest of the owners want.

Maybe you missed that whole "MLB set a record for revenues last year" cracking $6B for the first time ever and closing on the NFL for highest revenue in professional sports.

These assclowns are playing dumb, intentionally turning a blind eye to the PED's and other supplements and laughing all the way to the bank.

They don't give one dead, rotten rat's ass about the integrity of the game so long as the money keeps raining down...

Edit: Remember this is the same group of "great guys" who let ShamME* and McLiar "save baseball". Of course no one is willing to point out that baseball wouldn't have needed saving in the first place if the owners had simply gone to the negotiating table in good faith back in Spring of 1994 and worked out a revenue sharing plan with themselves and the players that would actually work, but they were all too damned busy holding on to their slice of the pie to actually see that if they merely grow a bigger pie, each slice becomes bigger. Then the pie started to shrink and all of a sudden the lightbulb went on. Needing a quick fix, they decided it was simpler to inject the pie with steroids and watch it bulk up than to worry about little nit-picky things like integrity, honor and tradition...

Paulwny
01-15-2008, 03:31 PM
See there you go assuming the roids, stimulants and hence artificially created records aren't exactly what Selig and the rest of the owners want.

Maybe you missed that whole "MLB set a record for revenues last year" cracking $6B for the first time ever and closing on the NFL for highest revenue in professional sports.

These assclowns are playing dumb, intentionally turning a blind eye to the PED's and other supplements and laughing all the way to the bank.

They don't give one dead, rotten rat's ass about the integrity of the game so long as the money keeps raining down...

You got it !!!!
They talk the talk , but that's about it.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is what its all about.

spawn
01-15-2008, 04:16 PM
You got it !!!!
They talk the talk , but that's about it.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is what its all about.
That's all it's ever been about. That's why they're in this mess in the first place. It's a business. plain and simple.

Daver
01-15-2008, 04:27 PM
That's all it's ever been about. That's why they're in this mess in the first place. It's a business. plain and simple.

The Supreme Court decreed MLB to not be a business years ago.

spiffie
01-15-2008, 04:27 PM
See there you go assuming the roids, stimulants and hence artificially created records aren't exactly what Selig and the rest of the owners want.

Maybe you missed that whole "MLB set a record for revenues last year" cracking $6B for the first time ever and closing on the NFL for highest revenue in professional sports.

These assclowns are playing dumb, intentionally turning a blind eye to the PED's and other supplements and laughing all the way to the bank.

They don't give one dead, rotten rat's ass about the integrity of the game so long as the money keeps raining down...

Edit: Remember this is the same group of "great guys" who let ShamME* and McLiar "save baseball". Of course no one is willing to point out that baseball wouldn't have needed saving in the first place if the owners had simply gone to the negotiating table in good faith back in Spring of 1994 and worked out a revenue sharing plan with themselves and the players that would actually work, but they were all too damned busy holding on to their slice of the pie to actually see that if they merely grow a bigger pie, each slice becomes bigger. Then the pie started to shrink and all of a sudden the lightbulb went on. Needing a quick fix, they decided it was simpler to inject the pie with steroids and watch it bulk up than to worry about little nit-picky things like integrity, honor and tradition...
Aren't we just as guilty though too? We know all about this stuff, yet we keep on willfully shoveling money into the system. This board alone (the posters of WSI, not this board itself) probably contributes a couple of million dollars a year into MLB coffers.

Sadly, our continued willingness to hate the people running the game yet block all of that out of our minds when it comes to our beloved team gives the powers-that-be no incentive to clean up. You said it yourself, they had record revenues last year.

At what point do we have to all step back and say "No more! Until this game is truly cleaned up, not the half-assed job you people are doing, you get no more money from us!" as opposed to *****ing about it online and then plopping down a few grand for 2008 tickets because Nick Swisher looks like he could really be a huge addition for us? Yes, Bud Selig and Don Fehr are guilty as hell of ignoring all of this, yet we keep enabling them and emboldening them by never turning our backs on the cesspool that they allowed the game to become. And I admit I am as guilty as anyone on this.

voodoochile
01-15-2008, 04:40 PM
Aren't we just as guilty though too? We know all about this stuff, yet we keep on willfully shoveling money into the system. This board alone (the posters of WSI, not this board itself) probably contributes a couple of million dollars a year into MLB coffers.

Sadly, our continued willingness to hate the people running the game yet block all of that out of our minds when it comes to our beloved team gives the powers-that-be no incentive to clean up. You said it yourself, they had record revenues last year.

At what point do we have to all step back and say "No more! Until this game is truly cleaned up, not the half-assed job you people are doing, you get no more money from us!" as opposed to *****ing about it online and then plopping down a few grand for 2008 tickets because Nick Swisher looks like he could really be a huge addition for us? Yes, Bud Selig and Don Fehr are guilty as hell of ignoring all of this, yet we keep enabling them and emboldening them by never turning our backs on the cesspool that they allowed the game to become. And I admit I am as guilty as anyone on this.

Yes and no...

People here would still go to games if they were cleaner. In fact they'd prefer it, but the massive increase in revenue isn't because suddenly there are a bunch more diehard fans, they've simply found ways to get the casual fan to spend more money. Some of that also has to do with the expanded playoff format which causes more teams to sell out deeper into each season, but a chunk of it is because of the hype machine ESPN and other media outlets have managed to generate for MLB by headlining the cheaters and shouting their exploits.

If every die-hard fan who truly cared went on strike, I doubt MLB would be worse off than they were before they sold their souls for a nice fat stack of Benjamins.

I also think that until the last few years, most of us truly didn't know the depth of the problem. Now it's apparent how wrong we were, but again, a good chunk of that blame lies with the media who report on the game we love. They haven't been telling us the truth either and for most folks that's who we rely on for information. Sure there are serious hardcore fans who know as much about their teams as the people who work for them do and have inside connections which might allow them to know more than the vast majority but the rest of us were led on and lied to.

I think you might see a backlash coming, but if the game appears to be making strides in the right direction, it won't be a major one. However, if the game continues to let the problem fester, fans might indeed start walking away...

Oblong
01-15-2008, 04:56 PM
See there you go assuming the roids, stimulants and hence artificially created records aren't exactly what Selig and the rest of the owners want.

Maybe you missed that whole "MLB set a record for revenues last year" cracking $6B for the first time ever and closing on the NFL for highest revenue in professional sports.

These assclowns are playing dumb, intentionally turning a blind eye to the PED's and other supplements and laughing all the way to the bank.

They don't give one dead, rotten rat's ass about the integrity of the game so long as the money keeps raining down...

Edit: Remember this is the same group of "great guys" who let ShamME* and McLiar "save baseball". Of course no one is willing to point out that baseball wouldn't have needed saving in the first place if the owners had simply gone to the negotiating table in good faith back in Spring of 1994 and worked out a revenue sharing plan with themselves and the players that would actually work, but they were all too damned busy holding on to their slice of the pie to actually see that if they merely grow a bigger pie, each slice becomes bigger. Then the pie started to shrink and all of a sudden the lightbulb went on. Needing a quick fix, they decided it was simpler to inject the pie with steroids and watch it bulk up than to worry about little nit-picky things like integrity, honor and tradition...

For me it goes back to the collusion in the 1980s. They cheated the players and were fined a ton of money for it. So they let in some expansion teams, enabling them to use the expansion fees to pay their collusion penalties. That created more distrust with the players and led to the stalemate in 1994.

All Selig's doing by ignoring Mitchell's suggestions is digging the hole bigger. Anyting to make him look like the ass he is will not bother me too much but it is affecting the game.

Daver
01-15-2008, 05:20 PM
For me it goes back to the collusion in the 1980s. They cheated the players and were fined a ton of money for it. So they let in some expansion teams, enabling them to use the expansion fees to pay their collusion penalties. That created more distrust with the players and led to the stalemate in 1994.

All Selig's doing by ignoring Mitchell's suggestions is digging the hole bigger. Anyting to make him look like the ass he is will not bother me too much but it is affecting the game.

Ummm, the owners got off cheap in the fines for collusion, as they only had to pay actual damages, not the treble damages they should have paid, because of the anti trust exemption that the sport has. They paid no fines actually, they were required to recompense the MLBPA of the money they cheated their members out of, they paid restitution, not a fine.

Oblong
01-15-2008, 05:59 PM
I don't understand. Then what's this $280 million figure that routinely gets thrown out there as what they had to pay? Or are you saying that wasn't enough?

Frontman
01-15-2008, 06:09 PM
Fehr and Selig like they messed their undies when the ADD/stimulant question was asked.

Daver
01-15-2008, 06:13 PM
I don't understand. Then what's this $280 million figure that routinely gets thrown out there as what they had to pay? Or are you saying that wasn't enough?

That is restitution for lost pay from MLBPA members that were underpaid because of the owners collusion tactics, over a period of three years. That is actual damages, money that should have been paid in salary and wasn't. By law the punishment for collusion cases is triple the actual damages, so if the actual damages were 280 million, then the penalty paid should have been 840 million. Because the Supreme Court decreed MLB as a sport and not a business in 1922, and granted them an exception to anti trust laws, MLB paid no damages, they simply paid restitution.

The formation of the Florida Marlins and the Colorado Rockies is directly linked to to that settlement, MLB used the franchise fees charged for the formation of those to teams to pay part of the settlement handed down by court.

You can get the complete story from a book called "The Lords of the Realm", a can't recall the author off the top of my hand, and I'm not going to go back in the house to look, but someone will post it.

Oblong
01-15-2008, 06:16 PM
That is restitution for lost pay from MLBPA members that were underpaid because of the owners collusion tactics, over a period of three years. That is actual damages, money that should have been paid in salary and wasn't. By law the punishment for collusion cases is triple the actual damages, so if the actual damages were 280 million, then the penalty paid should have been 840 million. Because the Supreme Court decreed MLB as a sport and not a business in 1922, and granted them an exception to anti trust laws, MLB paid no damages, they simply paid restitution.

The formation of the Florida Marlins and the Colorado Rockies is directly linked to to that settlement, MLB used the franchise fees charged for the formation of those to teams to pay part of the settlement handed down by court.

You can get the complete story from a book called "The Lords of the Realm", a can't recall the author off the top of my hand, and I'm not going to go back in the house to look, but someone will post it.

I found an article that said that in 1990 the CBA states collusion damanges will be tripled in the future.

I'll find that book.

Daver
01-15-2008, 06:20 PM
I found an article that said that in 1990 the CBA states collusion damanges will be tripled in the future.

I'll find that book.

In has been standard language in every CBA written since 1987, including the current one.

Daver
01-15-2008, 07:05 PM
I found an article that said that in 1990 the CBA states collusion damanges will be tripled in the future.

I'll find that book.

The author is John Helyar, I sent my kid into the house to get it.

Lip Man 1
01-15-2008, 10:10 PM
The best baseball book regarding the business part of the game that I have ever read.

Lip

russ99
01-16-2008, 09:27 AM
If Tejada ends up going to jail for this, it'll be huge for GMs deciding whether or not to sign guys like Roberts and others in the report. Who knows who these guys talked to in the past and what they said.

I'm quite peeved that Tejada's becoming the scapegoat here, instead of the hardcore cheaters like Giambi, Bonds and Sosa, all of whom can be charged with the same thing, lying to Congress.

Besides, Tejada's appearance in the Mitchell report is based on the testimony of one guy. Doesn't he have the right to face his accusers?

spawn
01-16-2008, 09:30 AM
I'm quite peeved that Tejada's becoming the scapegoat here, instead of the hardcore cheaters like Giambi, Bonds and Sosa, all of whom can be charged with the same thing, lying to Congress.

Besides, Tejada's appearance in the Mitchell report is based on the testimony of one guy. Doesn't he have the right to face his accusers?
Well, Bonds has been indicted. Giambi can't be indicted because he admitted his steroid use during the Balco investigation. Sosa can't be indicted for perjury because there is no proof of any wrongdoing on his part, just speculation.

Discinfool23
01-16-2008, 09:48 AM
The clean guy? He has nothing to worry about. Mitchell calls you up and you've never touched the stuff? You're in his office the next morning. (See Thomas, Frank.)

Great Article on the Hearing and the Mitchell Report on SI.com. I am ecstatic that everyone else is starting to believe that Frank is clean. Thought everyone else may be interested in the great read.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/tom_verducci/01/15/verducci.congress/index.html?bcnn=yes

voodoochile
01-16-2008, 10:07 AM
Great Article on the Hearing and the Mitchell Report on SI.com. I am ecstatic that everyone else is starting to believe that Frank is clean. Thought everyone else may be interested in the great read.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/tom_verducci/01/15/verducci.congress/index.html?bcnn=yes

It was Norton who first mentioned the elephant in the room, invoking the name of Roger Clemens after 104 minutes of hearing time had elapsed. More importantly, she pressed Selig and Fehr why they don't just get out of the drug testing administration business, something Mitchell had recommended in his report. Selig and Fehr kept referencing the "independent program administrator," but the title is fraudulant because the administrator has no authority over such key protocols as the number of tests (both in- and out-of-season), the substances that are banned, who collects and tests the samples, what determines "reasonable cause" for more frequent testing, and how to investigate and determine positive tests.

(snip)

when Norton asked him about turning over the program to a truly independent agecy, Selig waffled. Fehr expressed no appetite for such a change.Add in the evidence that players had advance warning of when tests would be administered from last summer and do you really need more proof that baseball actively wants players who use PED's because bigger faster athletes are more marketable?

And Fehr calls Mitchell a tool of The Man and claims baseball has cleaned up it's act. What a ****ing joke...

Flight #24
01-16-2008, 10:26 AM
Great Article on the Hearing and the Mitchell Report on SI.com. I am ecstatic that everyone else is starting to believe that Frank is clean. Thought everyone else may be interested in the great read.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/tom_verducci/01/15/verducci.congress/index.html?bcnn=yes

Arguably the scariest thing I've read on this subject is linked from that page: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/magazine/01/15/sins.of.a.father0121/index.html

The prick of the needle was accompanied by a pinch of guilt; it felt, as Corey puts it, "like I was doing something wrong." But he believed in his dad, a charismatic and fiercely ambitious former high school wrestler. He also trusted his trainer, a bodybuilder who acted like a big brother. Besides, what did Corey know about the substances being injected into his body? "Testosterone cypionate, it's just a word," he says. "It doesn't have a meaning. At least not when you're 13."

The dad supplies his 13 year old with HGH and steroids? Some people just should be allowed near children. As a parent, it's unbelievable to think that someone would do that.

SoxyStu
01-16-2008, 10:55 AM
I'm quite peeved that Tejada's becoming the scapegoat here, instead of the hardcore cheaters like Giambi, Bonds and Sosa, all of whom can be charged with the same thing, lying to Congress.

Besides, Tejada's appearance in the Mitchell report is based on the testimony of one guy. Doesn't he have the right to face his accusers?

You forgot about those two purty checks Tejada wrote to Piatt, a self-proclaimed juicer, that appear in the addendum of the report. You also forgot he had been accused by Canseco, another self-proclaimed juicer. You're right, he does have the right to face his accusers...in a court of law. He's not in a court of law yet. Also, I thought Giambi's testamony went to a grand jury, not congress; the same could be said for Bonds.

There is no proof that Sosa, or through his lawyer, lied to congress. There is no reason for the Justice Department to go after Sosa yet.

Oblong
01-16-2008, 05:34 PM
One of the panelists brought up the 1919 Blackhawks scandal......

.

Shays was also the one who said Palmeri and getting his 300th hit.

When asked about it he said:

"I could care less"

Daver
01-16-2008, 05:38 PM
Shays was also the one who said Palmeri and getting his 300th hit.

When asked about it he said:

"I could care less"

So he can't get a cliche' answer right either?