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View Full Version : Flubbies get a doper??


the1tab
01-09-2008, 08:55 AM
Orioleshangout.com is reporting that the Cubs traded Sean Gallagher, Sean Marshall and Ronny Cedeno for Brian Roberts. Anyone heard anything around here?

russ99
01-09-2008, 09:00 AM
Orioleshangout.com is reporting that the Cubs traded Sean Gallagher, Sean Marshall and Ronny Cedeno for Brian Roberts. Anyone heard anything around here?

Not sure if I believe something on our favorite rumors site and a site named "Orioleshangout.com" on this one.

The return is way too small for a player like Roberts. I can't see how this is true (without a solid Patton-like prospect) unless MacPhail is giving buddy Hendry a massive discount, which I doubt the Comissioner's office would allow.

the1tab
01-09-2008, 09:03 AM
Many argued their return for Tejada was a bit short as well. Perhaps they're trying to clean up their locker room? Maybe Roberts has a looming suspension the Cubs can handle w/ DeRosa but Baltimore doesn't want to deal with? There has been a lot of (deserved????) love for Marshall in trade rumors in the last two years... maybe Hendry got over this year's mancrush (see Rich Hill 2004) and made a deal to improve the Flubbies at a discount???

munchman33
01-09-2008, 09:05 AM
The return is way too small for a player like Roberts.

Is it? A young middle infielder, a young MLB ready left-handed middle of the rotation type starter, and a B pitching prospect.

Sounds like a good deal to me.

oeo
01-09-2008, 09:06 AM
Are we going to have one of these threads every two weeks?

BTW, I like how the Flubs are upgrading their offense, but ignoring what will be their biggest weakness this year: PITCHING. Their bullpen was inconsistent last year and is now a year older, and the only one in that rotation that I would trust is Zambrano.

kba
01-09-2008, 09:12 AM
The return is way too small for a player like Roberts.

Phil Rogers would call it a +2 for the Orioles.

wsgdf
01-09-2008, 09:12 AM
Wow... are fan sites, rumor sites and even low rent sports writers for bad newspapers nobody's heard of just making stuff up now to get as many readers/hits/etc.?

If this story is false, nothing bad comes out of it for Orioles Hangout, but they might get a bunch of new contributors who didn't know the board was there now that they've been linked by mlbtraderumors.

Funny - mlbtraderumors did the same thing 5 years ago when every rumor they posted was pulled out of thin air... now they are providing the same service for the Daily Breeze and Orioles Hangout.

I'm worried about the future of information dissemination... and still pissed that Doug Padilla wasted a good part of my Saturday.

:angry:

"Padilla!!"

johnr1note
01-09-2008, 09:21 AM
Are we going to have one of these threads every two weeks?

BTW, I like how the Flubs are upgrading their offense, but ignoring what will be their biggest weakness this year: PITCHING. Their bullpen was inconsistent last year and is now a year older, and the only one in that rotation that I would trust is Zambrano.

The same argument could be made about the White Sox.

D. TODD
01-09-2008, 09:34 AM
Orioleshangout.com is reporting that the Cubs traded Sean Gallagher, Sean Marshall and Ronny Cedeno for Brian Roberts. Anyone heard anything around here?
I would love for the Sox to get that "doper" as you put it. I have heard this rumored deal for a while and if it indeed does go through I think it is a great move by the Cubs.

Gammons Peter
01-09-2008, 09:41 AM
The same argument could be made about the White Sox.

except the Sox have nobody near as good as Zambozo

oeo
01-09-2008, 09:48 AM
The same argument could be made about the White Sox.

I'm glad you brought this up.

That's true, but they're two teams in two totally different situations. One is in, arguably, the best division in baseball, with, arguably, the best team in baseball. They're coming off their worst season in nearly two decades, and came into the offseason with a hole at nearly every position.

The other is in (without a doubt) the worst division in baseball. They had a very mediocre season last year, and made the postseason. They can do the same in 2008, but they're going to have the same result in the postseason unless they fix that rotation.

In other words, the Sox are not ready to compete next year. The Flubs are because of their terrible division, but may end up at home in October because Ted Lilly, Jason Marquis, and Sean Marshall are not worth a damn.

It's Time
01-09-2008, 09:50 AM
I saw the header and then went to Orioles hangout. This is what the headline is.

http://www.orioleshangout.com/article.asp?ID=1297

Gammons Peter
01-09-2008, 09:51 AM
I'm glad you brought this up.

That's true, but they're two teams in two totally different situations. One is in, arguably, the best division in baseball, with, arguably, the best team in baseball. They're coming off their worst season in nearly two decades, and came into the offseason with a hole at nearly every position.

The other is in (without a doubt) the worst division in baseball. They had a very mediocre season last year, and made the postseason. They can do the same in 2008, but they're going to have the same result in the postseason unless they fix that rotation.

In other words, the Sox are not ready to compete next year. The Flubs are because of their terrible division, and may end up at home in October because Ted Lilly, Jason Marquis, and Sean Marshall are not worth a damn.

"in other words the Sox are ready to compete next year" ???? please explain

wsgdf
01-09-2008, 09:58 AM
Baltimore Sun says BS...

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/roch/blog/2008/01/latest_brian_roberts_rumor.html

oeo
01-09-2008, 09:58 AM
"in other words the Sox are ready to compete next year" ???? please explain

That was a typo.

It's Time
01-09-2008, 10:00 AM
Baltimore Sun says BS...

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/roch/blog/2008/01/latest_brian_roberts_rumor.html


I have to think this has serious legs. MacPhail, of course, is going to deny anything until ALL the particulars are final. IMO, this deal is going to happen, as it has been talked about too long for it not to.

It's Time
01-09-2008, 10:04 AM
From the source who put the info on the front page.


"Guys, today is Goose Gossage's day so MLB probably doesn't want to announce any trades. It is certainly MacPhail's and the front office's right to claim nothing is final because they are right, until MLB announces the trade it's not final.

I feel pretty good about the information I had because it came from two sources in two different circles of baseball. Now, have I talked with Andy MacPhail himself, no, so there is always a chance something is different, but I felt good enough to post it on the front page after having things confirmed to me privately. Again, I was told 100 percent.

Now, I don't expect the front office to confirm it, and I expect a lot of people will slam me for being inaccurate, but let's just say I'm not just basing this off a rumor from the board".

wsgdf
01-09-2008, 10:06 AM
I'd say MacPhail's 'very inaccurate' quote means "for Gallagher, crap and crap? Ummm... No."

wsgdf
01-09-2008, 10:11 AM
Found this on another Orioles board:

"Alas, havent we been down this road before with Orioles Hangout sources??"

Hmmm...

Foulke You
01-09-2008, 10:31 AM
except the Sox have nobody near as good as Zambozo
Right, Buehrle is nothing compared to the amazing multi Cy Young award winning Zambrano.

The Immigrant
01-09-2008, 10:39 AM
The Orioles still have fans?

thedudeabides
01-09-2008, 10:50 AM
The Orioles still have fans?

It's amazing that they do. Angelos has killed what was once a great fanbase.

chaerulez
01-09-2008, 10:54 AM
Phil Rogers is reporting this trade will happen very soon on his blog:

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/01/looking-like-a.html

I agree it kind of looks like the Cubs are getting the better of the deal, but I say they'd be stupid to make it. Marshall was solid for them last year. 3.92 ERA in 103 innings. If he can cut down on the walks, he'd be a pretty good pitcher. He's young, and hasn't shown any signs of injury history. If developed right I think he can be a #2 or #3. The Cubs made a real stupid move in getting Trachsel because they felt they need a veteran starter down the line and that Marshall couldn't cut it or whatever. Trachsel ended up giving them a 8.31 ERA in his four starts. Oops. I don't know why the Cubs are so eager to use Dempster as a starter, he had one good year as a starter and a lot of bad or average years. And when he was used as a starter briefly for the Cubs in 2005, he sucked. I'd rather have my 4-5 be Marshall and Marquis than it be Marquis and Dempster. I guess if the Cubs can somehow get Bedard out of the deal it becomes a moot point. If I were them I'd send anyone that isn't named Felix Pie or Josh Vitters (prospect wise) to add Bedard to the deal.

goon
01-09-2008, 11:10 AM
except the Sox have nobody near as good as Zambozo

The Sox don't have a pitcher with the "talent" of Zambrano, I think you could argue that the Sox have two pitchers that are as effective though. Have you looked at that spazz's last three years? He keeps getting worse and even MORE inconsistent. I think the fact that he is always ranked in the top three pitchers for "pitches thrown" might be starting to take a toll on his arm, the sporadic deviation of velocity on his fastball last season might hint at this. Sometimes he seemed really strong, other times very flat, he is a strange character.

Walkman
01-09-2008, 11:27 AM
I'm glad you brought this up.

That's true, but they're two teams in two totally different situations. One is in, arguably, the best division in baseball, with, arguably, the best team in baseball. They're coming off their worst season in nearly two decades, and came into the offseason with a hole at nearly every position.

The other is in (without a doubt) the worst division in baseball. They had a very mediocre season last year, and made the postseason. They can do the same in 2008, but they're going to have the same result in the postseason unless they fix that rotation.

In other words, the Sox are not ready to compete next year. The Flubs are because of their terrible division, but may end up at home in October because Ted Lilly, Jason Marquis, and Sean Marshall are not worth a damn.

I know this heresy to say around here, but it's pretty ridculous to say that the Sox aren't ready to compete.

johnr1note
01-09-2008, 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnr1note http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1766839#post1766839)
The same argument could be made about the White Sox.


I'm glad you brought this up.

That's true, but they're two teams in two totally different situations. One is in, arguably, the best division in baseball, with, arguably, the best team in baseball. They're coming off their worst season in nearly two decades, and came into the offseason with a hole at nearly every position.

The other is in (without a doubt) the worst division in baseball. They had a very mediocre season last year, and made the postseason. They can do the same in 2008, but they're going to have the same result in the postseason unless they fix that rotation.

In other words, the Sox are not ready to compete next year. The Flubs are because of their terrible division, but may end up at home in October because Ted Lilly, Jason Marquis, and Sean Marshall are not worth a damn.

Your points are well taken. Actually, the Sox are better off pitching wise, as it is reasonable to expect that Buehrle, Vazquez will have good years, and possibly Contreras.

I made my statement in haste and oversimplification, as I believe pitching woes could sink both North and South side in the upcoming season. But I am not as down on the Sox's chances as most on the board. I believe we are a servicable 3rd starter, one more decent bullpen arm, and a legit leadoff man away from being extremely competitive. Each of those components could be on our 40 man roster now, and we just don't know it yet. Or KW could make a few more deals. But I am cautiously optimistic for the 2008 season.

thedudeabides
01-09-2008, 12:40 PM
The Orioles Hangout site is now reporting that an Orioles official contacted them to say their report is inaccurate. Does it seem odd that the Orioles would waste their time contacting a message board or are these guys completely full of it?

http://orioleshangout.com/article.asp?ID=1297

jabrch
01-09-2008, 12:47 PM
I know this heresy to say around here, but it's pretty ridculous to say that the Sox aren't ready to compete.

I wouldn't call it heresy. The negative folks here tend to be much louder than the positive people - but there are still a good number of people here who believe that this team COULD contend if things go right.

russ99
01-09-2008, 02:02 PM
Phil Rogers is reporting this trade will happen very soon on his blog:

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/01/looking-like-a.html

I agree it kind of looks like the Cubs are getting the better of the deal, but I say they'd be stupid to make it. Marshall was solid for them last year. 3.92 ERA in 103 innings. If he can cut down on the walks, he'd be a pretty good pitcher. He's young, and hasn't shown any signs of injury history. If developed right I think he can be a #2 or #3. The Cubs made a real stupid move in getting Trachsel because they felt they need a veteran starter down the line and that Marshall couldn't cut it or whatever. Trachsel ended up giving them a 8.31 ERA in his four starts. Oops. I don't know why the Cubs are so eager to use Dempster as a starter, he had one good year as a starter and a lot of bad or average years. And when he was used as a starter briefly for the Cubs in 2005, he sucked. I'd rather have my 4-5 be Marshall and Marquis than it be Marquis and Dempster. I guess if the Cubs can somehow get Bedard out of the deal it becomes a moot point. If I were them I'd send anyone that isn't named Felix Pie or Josh Vitters (prospect wise) to add Bedard to the deal.

I'd call shenanigans on that.

Before Tejada was named in Mitchell, the Astros gave up an everyday LF (Scott), a decent spot-starter or long reliever (Albers) a rocket-armed reliever with some control issues (Sarfate) their top pitching prospect who'll start this year (Patton) and a power hitting 3B about 2-3 years away (Costanzo).

I'd admit that Roberts' price is lower due to Mitchell, and he's a bit lower quality overall than Tejada, but Marshall, Gallagher and Cedeno are nowhere close to the level of MLB ready players dealt in the Tejada deal and there are no real prospects going from the Cubs to Baltimore.

Maybe if someone like Pie, Veal or Fuld were included it would be a bit closer to reality. All three if the Cubs had any serious deal in play for Bedard as well.

chaerulez
01-09-2008, 02:23 PM
I'd call shenanigans on that.

Before Tejada was named in Mitchell, the Astros gave up an everyday LF (Scott), a decent spot-starter or long reliever (Albers) a rocket-armed reliever with some control issues (Sarfate) their top pitching prospect who'll start this year (Patton) and a power hitting 3B about 2-3 years away (Costanzo).

I'd admit that Roberts' price is lower due to Mitchell, and he's a bit lower quality overall than Tejada, but Marshall, Gallagher and Cedeno are nowhere close to the level of MLB ready players dealt in the Tejada deal and there are no real prospects going from the Cubs to Baltimore.

Maybe if someone like Pie, Veal or Fuld were included it would be a bit closer to reality. All three if the Cubs had any serious deal in play for Bedard as well.

If Marshall isn't major league ready I don't know who is. He's not a person with amazing stuff, but he can at least be a decent #3. Gallagher can be a decent reliever/spot starter and Cedeno if he can ever hit in the majors could be an everyday player. I don't think the Mitchell Report brings down Roberts value all that much. He never had amazing power numbers.

the1tab
01-09-2008, 02:41 PM
I'd call shenanigans on that.

Before Tejada was named in Mitchell, the Astros gave up an everyday LF (Scott), a decent spot-starter or long reliever (Albers) a rocket-armed reliever with some control issues (Sarfate) their top pitching prospect who'll start this year (Patton) and a power hitting 3B about 2-3 years away (Costanzo).

I'd admit that Roberts' price is lower due to Mitchell, and he's a bit lower quality overall than Tejada, but Marshall, Gallagher and Cedeno are nowhere close to the level of MLB ready players dealt in the Tejada deal and there are no real prospects going from the Cubs to Baltimore.

Maybe if someone like Pie, Veal or Fuld were included it would be a bit closer to reality. All three if the Cubs had any serious deal in play for Bedard as well.

I would, however, counter your argument by looking at the past couple years of the careers of Tejada vs. Roberts and submit that Roberts #s are looking better, while Tejada's are... tired for lack of a better word. Even though Tejada is a former MVP, his name was leaked with only one or two days after the deal w/ HOU was finalized as being a headliner in the Mitchell Report. Gallagher has been rumored to be everywhere, Marshall's a legit starter MLB ready, and Cedeno is... Cedeno.

Walkman
01-09-2008, 02:47 PM
I wouldn't call it heresy. The negative folks here tend to be much louder than the positive people - but there are still a good number of people here who believe that this team COULD contend if things go right.

Count me in as a believer.

russ99
01-09-2008, 03:16 PM
I would, however, counter your argument by looking at the past couple years of the careers of Tejada vs. Roberts and submit that Roberts #s are looking better, while Tejada's are... tired for lack of a better word. Even though Tejada is a former MVP, his name was leaked with only one or two days after the deal w/ HOU was finalized as being a headliner in the Mitchell Report. Gallagher has been rumored to be everywhere, Marshall's a legit starter MLB ready, and Cedeno is... Cedeno.

Good points, but all things being equal, I can't see how a rebuilding team like the Orioles would get that much from Houston for Tejada, and then not expect a similar high-value return of prospects/players for someone like Roberts.

So either the Astros got fleeced, Hendry's doing one of his get a good player for non-top prospects deals or MacPhail sees something in his ex-players that I and other baseball fans don't - or some combination of the three.

MCHSoxFan
01-09-2008, 04:58 PM
Count me in as a believer.

Me, my grandmother (My mom's mother), and my father, too. All you have to do is work on my brother (CLUBHOUSE KID) and my dad's father. My mother knows the least, if nothing, about the status of the team. However, she does go to a few games and really enjoys watching the Sox play and most importantly...WIN!!! Don't we all do?!?! :D:

Rockabilly
01-09-2008, 07:58 PM
I read somewhere that Bruce Levine said that the Angels might get Brian Roberts if that is true that the Angels are hot after Roberts, could it be that Kendrick coming to the Sox for PK might be also true...

The Thomenator
01-09-2008, 08:21 PM
I read somewhere that Bruce Levine said that the Angels might get Bip Roberts if that is true that the Angels are hot after Roberts, could it be that Kendrick coming to the Sox for PK might be also true...

I dont think the Angels are hot after Bip Roberts......He'll be 45 in October.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/roberbi01.shtml

Rockabilly
01-09-2008, 08:29 PM
I dont think the Angels are hot after Bip Roberts......He'll be 45 in October.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/roberbi01.shtml

my mistake not to sure why I had Bip Roberts on my mind

wsgdf
01-09-2008, 08:31 PM
"I read somewhere that Bruce Levine said that the Angels might get Brian Roberts if that is true that the Angels are hot after Roberts, could it be that Kendrick coming to the Sox for PK might be also true..."

Ask your sources...

:dtroll:

ksimpson14
01-10-2008, 04:43 AM
Surprised the media doesn't rip the cubs when reporting these rumors, you watch Chicago Tribune Live and they all anticipate it like 'when's it going to happen!?!', then they'll have a segment ripping on Clemens

russ99
01-10-2008, 08:55 AM
Now reports are coming out that the Orioles want Rich Hill, Pie or Colvin as part of a deal for Roberts. That's more like it.

Geez. Scrub fans think they can get any player for free...

PatK
01-10-2008, 09:02 AM
As much as I dislike the Cubs, I have to say, if they get Roberts, they're gonna have a really solid lineup.

How come they seem to be able to get things done, but the Sox can't?

Gammons Peter
01-10-2008, 11:47 AM
How come they seem to be able to get things done, but the Sox can't?


Well, they have more money at their disposal and a better farm system.

balke
01-10-2008, 12:03 PM
As much as I dislike the Cubs, I have to say, if they get Roberts, they're gonna have a really solid lineup.

How come they seem to be able to get things done, but the Sox can't?

What "things" have they gotten done that the Sox haven't?

munchman33
01-10-2008, 12:15 PM
What "things" have they gotten done that the Sox haven't?

They did scoop us to Fukudome.

balke
01-10-2008, 12:28 PM
They did scoop us to Fukudome.

Fukudome joined the Cubs. He was offered equal or more monetarily to join the Sox. I don't see how that's being scooped. That's one player being an idiot.

D. TODD
01-10-2008, 12:36 PM
Fukudome joined the Cubs. He was offered equal or more monetarily to join the Sox. I don't see how that's being scooped. That's one player being an idiot.As a Sox fan I would have loved for Fukudome to have chosen the Sox as well, but I don't think he was an idiot for choosing the Cubs. The key factor was the open rightfield spot. He wants to avoid playing center and the Cubs situation fits him perfectly. Makes sense to me that he chose the northside.

the1tab
01-10-2008, 01:09 PM
What "things" have they gotten done that the Sox haven't?

The reason people make comments like the one you're calling into question is because Kenny Williams talked a huge game at the end of October/early November about how much 2007 didn't sit well, and all the big changes he had in store for us. Meanwhile, Jim Hendry was doing his usual "Well, we looked good against crap this year, so we're just gonna tinker a bit." Hendry is playing the role of KW's rich cousin... gets whatever he wants whenever he wants it, while Kenny wants one guy and loses him to somebody else. The grass is greener at Wrigley if you're a pessimist? Look at Kenny's winter:

Kenny retained Juan Uribe to, in theory, play SS.
Then Kenny didn't get Torii Hunter - the one guy he wanted.
Then Kenny traded away Garland for Cabrera (a SS).
Then Kenny didn't get Fukudome.
Then Kenny didn't get Rowand (I'm not saying he ever wanted him)
Then Kenny traded a prospect (who some people liked) for a young OF coming off an injury.
Then Kenny signed a Cuban SS.
Then Kenny traded away the top three of the team's top 5 prospects for a guy that hit .262 last year (which, according to Phil Rogers, is all he did last year).

Jim Hendry said the one guy he wanted was Fukudome. He got him. Contrast this vs. the KW - Hunter situation.

I think the overriding feeling from this offseason so far is that Kenny's been redundant in most of his moves and he hasn't gotten Choice A or B when he's tried. That's where the comments come from that KW isn't getting anything done. I personally feel that one or two more moves and the Sox could be right back in the mix.

Now, I would argue that the only thing(s) Kenny has done wrong this offseason are A) talk too much about needing a CF and then backpeddling into telling us Owens would work either in CF or as a corner OF, B) doing jack squat for helping the pitching staff other than Linebrink, who I'm not a fan of, while moving your #2-3 starter w/out a replacement, and C) adding two SS's to the roster after keeping Uribe. I think the Swisher deal was great - the history of our prospects making anything happen anywhere (excluding this decade's coulda-shoulda hero, Chris Young) vs. a guy who takes pitches and gets on base? No brainer for me now. Am I a fan of the deal for Carlos Quentin? Not really... but if he's healthy and plays like Arizona claimed he could 2 years ago, I'll take it.

Right now I give KW a C+.

Madscout
01-10-2008, 01:50 PM
The reason people make comments like the one you're calling into question is because Kenny Williams talked a huge game at the end of October/early November about how much 2007 didn't sit well, and all the big changes he had in store for us. Meanwhile, Jim Hendry was doing his usual "Well, we looked good against crap this year, so we're just gonna tinker a bit." Hendry is playing the role of KW's rich cousin... gets whatever he wants whenever he wants it, while Kenny wants one guy and loses him to somebody else. The grass is greener at Wrigley if you're a pessimist? Look at Kenny's winter:

Kenny retained Juan Uribe to, in theory, play SS.
Then Kenny didn't get Torii Hunter - the one guy he wanted.
Then Kenny traded away Garland for Cabrera (a SS).
Then Kenny didn't get Fukudome.
Then Kenny didn't get Rowand (I'm not saying he ever wanted him)
Then Kenny traded a prospect (who some people liked) for a young OF coming off an injury.
Then Kenny signed a Cuban SS.
Then Kenny traded away the top three of the team's top 5 prospects for a guy that hit .262 last year (which, according to Phil Rogers, is all he did last year).

Jim Hendry said the one guy he wanted was Fukudome. He got him. Contrast this vs. the KW - Hunter situation.

I think the overriding feeling from this offseason so far is that Kenny's been redundant in most of his moves and he hasn't gotten Choice A or B when he's tried. That's where the comments come from that KW isn't getting anything done. I personally feel that one or two more moves and the Sox could be right back in the mix.

Now, I would argue that the only thing(s) Kenny has done wrong this offseason are A) talk too much about needing a CF and then backpeddling into telling us Owens would work either in CF or as a corner OF, B) doing jack squat for helping the pitching staff other than Linebrink, who I'm not a fan of, while moving your #2-3 starter w/out a replacement, and C) adding two SS's to the roster after keeping Uribe. I think the Swisher deal was great - the history of our prospects making anything happen anywhere (excluding this decade's coulda-shoulda hero, Chris Young) vs. a guy who takes pitches and gets on base? No brainer for me now. Am I a fan of the deal for Carlos Quentin? Not really... but if he's healthy and plays like Arizona claimed he could 2 years ago, I'll take it.

Right now I give KW a C+.

In the past five years, who's won more games?

balke
01-10-2008, 01:51 PM
Kenny:

-Re-signed Mark Buehrle
-Re-signed Jermaine Dye
-Didn't overpay 18 million dollars on an outfielder coming off a career year that was only so good looking because of his first half hitting last season (Hunter)
-Didn't want Aaron Rowand for 5 years.
-Couldn't get Fukudome because the RFer he has is already better than him.
-Upgraded SS with Orlando Cabrera
-Traded a player who was going West in the offseason regardless (Garland)
-Traded for Nick Swisher who is younger than Hunter or Rowand and is locked down for 4 years cheaper than Rowand or Hunter.
-Signed Alexei Ramirez who is about the best player in Cuba (Can play several positions making him the replacement for Andy Gonzalez, Mackowiak or Cintron, not just a SS)
-Traded for a young OFer who many critics say is the best move he's made all season (Quentin)
-Signed a Top flight Bullpen arm for one of the leagues worst bullpens

Hendry:

-Sent OF Craig Monroe to the Twins for player to be named.
-Re-signed free agent RHP Kerry Wood to a one-year contract
-Fukudome
-Acquired RHP Ryan Meyers and OF Corey Coles from the Mets in exchange for OF Angel Pagan.
-Acquired RHP Jose Ascanio from the Atlanta Braves in exchange LHP Will Ohman and INF Omar Infante.
-Acquired RHP Tim Lahey from the Tampa Bay Rays for cash.
-Signed LHP Neal Cotts to a one-year contract.
-Acquired INF Omar Infante from the Tigers for OF Jacque Jones and cash.


Man oh man, why can't Kenny get all of that done like the Cubbies?!
Some of these Sox "fans" are freaking morons who should donate their tickets to charity.

balke
01-10-2008, 01:54 PM
In the past five years, who's won more games?

Or more World Series.

SBSoxFan
01-10-2008, 02:06 PM
As a Sox fan I would have loved for Fukudome to have chosen the Sox as well, but I don't think he was an idiot for choosing the Cubs. The key factor was the open rightfield spot. He wants to avoid playing center and the Cubs situation fits him perfectly. Makes sense to me that he chose the northside.

Another key, maybe the key factor, is that Fukudome wanted to be the first Japanese player on a team. A ML roster doesn't need that kind of attitude.

D. TODD
01-10-2008, 02:11 PM
Another key, maybe the key factor, is that Fukudome wanted to be the first Japanese player on a team. A ML roster doesn't need that kind of attitude. I heard him mention that as well, but I don't buy it at all. That may have been an added bonus, but a minimal part. His desire to play right field was paramount though, and the Cubs have a desperate need for one while the Sox needed a centerfielder more.

PatK
01-10-2008, 03:46 PM
Man oh man, why can't Kenny get all of that done like the Cubbies?!
Some of these Sox "fans" are freaking morons who should donate their tickets to charity.

Ah yes, I forgot, you can't compliment the Flubs around here without being labeled a moron, idiot, or fair weather fan. Don't let your hatred for them blind you to the fact that they had a better year last year than the Sox and are have a better chance of making the playoffs this year than we do.

Don't give me that "weakest division" nonsense, because I remember recent years when the AL Central was considered one of the weakest (if not THE weakest) and I didn't see us win.

But I think the1tab might have hit it. Kenny has REALLY talked a big game and hasn't delivered. He's made some decent moves, but nothing that really jumps out at you.

Sure, he strengthened us up the middle by getting Cabrera, but weakened the starting rotation at the same time. I don't see Swisher as being any upgrade over Owen in center (in the field that is), but I still like the move.

One thing that really irks me is that there a few of decent starters and relievers that were available as FA and it seems like we didn't make a run at any of them. Nothing that was a 1 or 2, but dependable 4 or 5's.

It's frustrating because the last two years, the Cubs have gotten the guys they wanted, and we've had to settle for the 3rd or 4th option. Or we barely missed out because of things like 1 addtional year on a contract.

I just don't want anything near a repeat of what happened last year. And call me Flubsessed, but I don't want to watch the Sox wallow in the middle and the Cubs go to the playoffs again.

Madscout
01-10-2008, 07:23 PM
Ah yes, I forgot, you can't compliment the Flubs around here without being labeled a moron, idiot, or fair weather fan. Don't let your hatred for them blind you to the fact that they had a better year last year than the Sox and are have a better chance of making the playoffs this year than we do.

Don't give me that "weakest division" nonsense, because I remember recent years when the AL Central was considered one of the weakest (if not THE weakest) and I didn't see us win.

But I think the1tab might have hit it. Kenny has REALLY talked a big game and hasn't delivered. He's made some decent moves, but nothing that really jumps out at you.

Sure, he strengthened us up the middle by getting Cabrera, but weakened the starting rotation at the same time. I don't see Swisher as being any upgrade over Owen in center (in the field that is), but I still like the move.

One thing that really irks me is that there a few of decent starters and relievers that were available as FA and it seems like we didn't make a run at any of them. Nothing that was a 1 or 2, but dependable 4 or 5's.

It's frustrating because the last two years, the Cubs have gotten the guys they wanted, and we've had to settle for the 3rd or 4th option. Or we barely missed out because of things like 1 addtional year on a contract.

I just don't want anything near a repeat of what happened last year. And call me Flubsessed, but I don't want to watch the Sox wallow in the middle and the Cubs go to the playoffs again.

I agree with you on most points, it is frustrating. But ask yourself, do you really want what the Cubs have been doing? Do you want to give a player like Soriano a contract like he got? What happens if he turns into an injury problem? How do you get rid of a contract like that? Do you really want the pitchers that they have? THE CUBS PITCHING WAS OFF THE CHARTS LAST YEAR AND THEY LIMPED INTO THE PLAYOFFS. IF THE BREWERS GO .500 IN THE LAST TWO MONTHS THE CUBS DON'T GET A WIFF OF THE PLAYOFFS. Do you really want players on the southside who don't want to be here? I sure as hell don't.
I want to compete now, and I want to see this team win. But I don't want it with contracts to players like Hunter that are 5/15 per, because that can not and will not last.

PatK
01-11-2008, 10:26 AM
I agree with you on most points, it is frustrating. But ask yourself, do you really want what the Cubs have been doing?

I'd just like to see us get that one free agent to come here that we targeted. For once.

Linebrink was a start.

spawn
01-11-2008, 10:34 AM
I'd just like to see us get that one free agent to come here that we targeted. For once.

Linebrink was a start.

Tadahito Iguchi
Jermaine Dye
AJ Pierzinski
Scott Linebrink
Alexei Ramirez

That's more than one free agent signing over the last 3 years. Maybe you mean a high price free agent, or a free agent you targeted and would like KW to go after.

SBSoxFan
01-11-2008, 11:39 AM
Don't give me that "weakest division" nonsense, because I remember recent years when the AL Central was considered one of the weakest (if not THE weakest) and I didn't see us win.

Well, maybe that tag on the AL Central was wrong. From 2001 - 2004, the winner of the AL Central won 90 or more games. During that 4 year span, the Sox won 83 or more games 3 times. St. Louis won 83 games in 2006 to win the NL Central, and the Cubs won 85 to win it last year.

PatK
01-11-2008, 03:08 PM
Maybe you mean a high price free agent, or a free agent you targeted and would like KW to go after.

High price (Konereko re-signing doesn't count).

And when I say that, I mean a guy that immediately makes you better. I realize that this year there weren't many.

I dunno. Maybe his trash talking about big things happening got my expectations WAY up this offseason.

spawn
01-11-2008, 03:28 PM
High price (Konereko re-signing doesn't count).

And when I say that, I mean a guy that immediately makes you better. I realize that this year there weren't many.

I dunno. Maybe his trash talking about big things happening got my expectations WAY up this offseason.

As far as trash talk...I don't consider what he said as "trash talking". He said he had a plan. Unfortunately, the main piece (Torii) decided to sign for more money elsewhere, and for that, I'm grateful. IMO, this team is already better than it was last year. Orlando Cabrerra improves the shortstop position immediately. Nick Swisher improves the CF position immediately. Scott Linebrink improves the bullpen immediately. I think maybe next season, he shouldn't say anything. But then, us Sox fans will ***** that he doesn't care about improving the team.

Madscout
01-12-2008, 03:38 PM
As far as trash talk...I don't consider what he said as "trash talking". He said he had a plan. Unfortunately, the main piece (Torii) decided to sign for more money elsewhere, and for that, I'm grateful. IMO, this team is already better than it was last year. Orlando Cabrerra improves the shortstop position immediately. Nick Swisher improves the CF position immediately. Scott Linebrink improves the bullpen immediately. I think maybe next season, he shouldn't say anything. But then, us Sox fans will ***** that he doesn't care about improving the team.

Exactly. At some point, he has done all he can do, and he probably isn't done yet. Star power never wins you a championship, even star pitchers. Look at the past several years, and you will see that it is the ENTIRE starting rotation's and bullpen's performances that win you a championship. The Sawks had Ortiz and Manny, but it was the rotation and the bullpen that won them their two championships. Cardinal pitchers were lights out in '06 and we all know what the Sox had in '05 and we can go on from there. If you want to *****, don't ***** about an overratted CF who probably will be an injury problem in the years to come whom you have to over pay. If you want to *****, ***** about how KW didn't bring another proven starter.

santo=dorf
01-12-2008, 04:37 PM
Kenny:

-Re-signed Mark Buehrle
-Re-signed Jermaine Dye
-Didn't overpay 18 million dollars on an outfielder coming off a career year that was only so good looking because of his first half hitting last season (Hunter)
-Didn't want Aaron Rowand for 5 years.
-Couldn't get Fukudome because the RFer he has is already better than him.
-Upgraded SS with Orlando Cabrera
-Traded a player who was going West in the offseason regardless (Garland)
-Traded for Nick Swisher who is younger than Hunter or Rowand and is locked down for 4 years cheaper than Rowand or Hunter.
-Signed Alexei Ramirez who is about the best player in Cuba (Can play several positions making him the replacement for Andy Gonzalez, Mackowiak or Cintron, not just a SS)
-Traded for a young OFer who many critics say is the best move he's made all season (Quentin)
-Signed a Top flight Bullpen arm for one of the leagues worst bullpens

Hendry:

-Sent OF Craig Monroe to the Twins for player to be named.
-Re-signed free agent RHP Kerry Wood to a one-year contract
-Fukudome
-Acquired RHP Ryan Meyers and OF Corey Coles from the Mets in exchange for OF Angel Pagan.
-Acquired RHP Jose Ascanio from the Atlanta Braves in exchange LHP Will Ohman and INF Omar Infante.
-Acquired RHP Tim Lahey from the Tampa Bay Rays for cash.
-Signed LHP Neal Cotts to a one-year contract.
-Acquired INF Omar Infante from the Tigers for OF Jacque Jones and cash.


Man oh man, why can't Kenny get all of that done like the Cubbies?!
Some of these Sox "fans" are freaking morons who should donate their tickets to charity.
Nice spin job :sahaf
first two kenny points did not happen in the winter like 1tab was talking about.
The reason people make comments like the one you're calling into question is because Kenny Williams talked a huge game at the end of October/early November about how much 2007 didn't sit well, and all the big changes he had in store for us. Meanwhile, Jim Hendry was doing his usual "Well, we looked good against crap this year, so we're just gonna tinker a bit." Hendry is playing the role of KW's rich cousin... gets whatever he wants whenever he wants it, while Kenny wants one guy and loses him to somebody else. The grass is greener at Wrigley if you're a pessimist? Look at Kenny's winter:

Shouldn't Hendry get credit for not signing Rowand and Hunter as well?

Your Garland point is an opinion and the Sox still could've used Garland for this season. If he was a stone cold lock to leave the Sox after 2008, the Sox most likely would receive compensation. Why are you already looking to 2009 if 2008 is so bright and shiny?

-Your Fukudome/Dye statement is opinion again, and it is very questionable as Fukudome looks promising, and Dye had a brutal season. Too early to say which player is better than the other. If the Sox signed Fukudome, they could've put him in LF or CF, and I imagine if they offered even more money or were coming off a 90-72 season instead of a 72-90 season, he would've been more enticed to come here.

-Your Ramirez point is strictly opinion. Gonzalez and Cintron were absolutely terrible last year as Stephen Hawking would've been an upgrade. It's no rock solid fact that Ramirez will even be with the MLB next year. Hell, he hasn't even taken his physical yet due to visa problems.

-Your point about Q is a collection of other people's opinions. If he was traded to the Cubs, I bet you'd say "he can only play at the minor league level, and he's injury prone." :rolleyes:

I guess rose-colored glasses allow people to mix facts (signing players to contracts) and opinions with one another (best player in Cuba,) and use twisted logic to support only their point. Really, if KW gets credit for NOT signing a player, so should the other 28 GMs in the MLB who didn't sign him. :rolleyes:

balke
01-12-2008, 07:17 PM
Nice spin job :sahaf
first two kenny points did not happen in the winter like 1tab was talking about.


Shouldn't Hendry get credit for not signing Rowand and Hunter as well?

Your Garland point is an opinion and the Sox still could've used Garland for this season. If he was a stone cold lock to leave the Sox after 2008, the Sox most likely would receive compensation. Why are you already looking to 2009 if 2008 is so bright and shiny?

-Your Fukudome/Dye statement is opinion again, and it is very questionable as Fukudome looks promising, and Dye had a brutal season. Too early to say which player is better than the other. If the Sox signed Fukudome, they could've put him in LF or CF, and I imagine if they offered even more money or were coming off a 90-72 season instead of a 72-90 season, he would've been more enticed to come here.

-Your Ramirez point is strictly opinion. Gonzalez and Cintron were absolutely terrible last year as Stephen Hawking would've been an upgrade. It's no rock solid fact that Ramirez will even be with the MLB next year. Hell, he hasn't even taken his physical yet due to visa problems.

-Your point about Q is a collection of other people's opinions. If he was traded to the Cubs, I bet you'd say "he can only play at the minor league level, and he's injury prone." :rolleyes:

I guess rose-colored glasses allow people to mix facts (signing players to contracts) and opinions with one another (best player in Cuba,) and use twisted logic to support only their point. Really, if KW gets credit for NOT signing a player, so should the other 28 GMs in the MLB who didn't sign him. :rolleyes:

Wow well thought out response Santo. So opinions about a subjective matter such as who "gets it done" between KW and Hendry? Man I wish we could just stick to the facts on that one.

The topic is why can't KW get things done like Hendry does. You tell me what the hell he's done that's so much better than KW? Fukudome? He was a 30-30 OFer in Japan. Matsui hit 40-50 HR's a season out there, and hasn't broken past 31 in the bigs.

I see Fukudome as a 40 double, 25 hr guy at best at the plate. Swisher will be a 40 hr, 25 double guy at best. He's about 3 years younger and has already seen MLB pitching.

2 seasons ago Jermaine Dye was an AL MVP candidate with 44 hr's. How a guy who's never seen an MLB pitch is better than him as a RFer, I don't know. Oh right, you're twisting your facts to state your opinion on a subjective matter within a fan message board.

Ramirez had more HR's than anyone in Cuba last season, that's a fact. He hasn't even made our roster? That's just as easy as my saying Fukudome hasn't made the Cubs roster. They'll both be playing next season.

Ramirez being "just a SS" as someone else mentioned isn't true. He'll be the Mackowiak/Cintron/Gonzalez for this team, unless he can hit extremely well and allow the Sox to put him in as an everday starter between CF, SS, 2B, or whatever position the Sox see fit.

And yes, if you are going to judge a GM you take into account the moves not made, just the same as the moves that were. Not making a 18-20 million dollar mistake by bidding against the Angels for an aging CFer who is coming off a career year is a good non-move. Just like IMO signing Soriano for his length of contract (something like 37 years old he'll still be a Cub) and amount of money (136 million) is a mistake.

Trading Garland and getting something for him, instead of letting him walk in the offseason because he wants to play out west and they have more money, is a good move. And I would argue a solid GG SS who can hit will do more for this team than a better draft pick from letting him walk.

Sockinchisox
01-12-2008, 11:40 PM
According to Levineline, Roberts is "no longer available". Because the O's insisted on Pie or Colvin and a couple pitchers and the Cubs wouldn't budge.

The Immigrant
01-13-2008, 07:16 AM
According to Levineline, Roberts is "no longer available". Because the O's insisted on Pie or Colvin and a couple pitchers and the Cubs wouldn't budge.

Phil Rogers will cry in his Cheerios this morning.

TheVulture
01-14-2008, 08:58 PM
High price (Konereko re-signing doesn't count).

And when I say that, I mean a guy that immediately makes you better. I realize that this year there weren't many.

I dunno. Maybe his trash talking about big things happening got my expectations WAY up this offseason.

Hmm... which will make the sox OF better in 2008 and beyond?


Toriiii Hunter?

Aaron Rowand?

Fukodome?

or

Swisher/Ramirez/Quentin?

Considering one month ago, the sox had one ONE! good OFer (in apparent decline), I'll go with option D, thanks. Now the starting rotation is another matter, but with the other acquisitions KW's made, I'm actually glad at this point he didn't sign any of those guys.

champagne030
01-14-2008, 09:14 PM
Hmm... which will make the sox OF better in 2008 and beyond?


Toriiii Hunter?

Aaron Rowand?

Fukodome?

or

Swisher/Ramirez/Quentin?

Considering one month ago, the sox had one ONE! good OFer (in apparent decline), I'll go with option D, thanks. Now the starting rotation is another matter, but with the other acquisitions KW's made, I'm actually glad at this point he didn't sign any of those guys.

Considering the other acquistions KW made, I would have preferred that he not acquired Swisher. He and the Sox seem much more likely to pay a FA OF to come here than he will land FA SP's to fill two of the 3-5 spots in '09 or '10.

JermaineDye05
01-14-2008, 09:18 PM
Considering the other acquistions KW made, I would have preferred that he not acquired Swisher. He and the Sox seem much more likely to pay a FA OF to come here than he will land FA SP's to fill two of the 3-5 spots in '09 or '10.

If he doesn't get traded, I would love for Kenny to come out of nowhere and dump all his money on Johan. Although I don't know if that'll be enough to come close to what the Yankees/Red Sox/Mets will offer.

TheVulture
01-14-2008, 10:32 PM
Considering the other acquistions KW made, I would have preferred that he not acquired Swisher. He and the Sox seem much more likely to pay a FA OF to come here than he will land FA SP's to fill two of the 3-5 spots in '09 or '10.

This doesn't make much sense - you'd rather not have Swisher so you can sign an OF FA next year because it's unlikely KW will sign a pitcher next year? I'd rather have 3 young guys in the relatively-to-extremely cheap range under control for 4-5 years each and not have to worry about paying 15 million a year for someone who probably won't do any better, call me crazy. Maybe you're saying if we still had Gio and DLS, we wouldn't have to worry about those 2 rotation spots, but that's a tad overly optimistic to say the least.

And who cares how they're acquired - just as long as they're acquired.