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View Full Version : What do you want in the LAA/PK trade?


SoxNation05
01-05-2008, 06:34 PM
There have been many different deals that have surfaced which would you prefer?

fusillirob1983
01-05-2008, 06:40 PM
Kendrick, Figgins, Shields

kwkonsl
01-05-2008, 06:42 PM
Crede , Konerko, and Richar for

Figgens or Wilitz, Santana, Kenderick + maybe a mid level prospect

We get a leadoff hitter, a sp with more experience and potential than Floyd plus we swap second baseman. They get Crede to give Brandon Wood one more year to develop in the minors and Richar. They also have the money to extend Crede if they wanted to. I think we would come out on top in this trade but we should because from the sound of everything the angels are persuing us more than we are them. It similar to the swisher trade because Konerko is not on the market and to get him they have to give up something. They have an abundance of starting pitching and I dont think santana is in their long term plans.

SoxNation05
01-05-2008, 06:43 PM
Kendrick, Figgins, Shields
Not gonna happen?

hi im skot
01-05-2008, 06:43 PM
Where's the option for "I don't want to trade Konerko away"?

getonbckthr
01-05-2008, 06:51 PM
Crede,Richar and Konerko for Kendrick, Figgins, Santana, Bootcheck and a prospect
That will give Anaheim an oppertunity to deal Richar, Adenhart and a prospect for Roberts.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 06:56 PM
Where's the option for "I don't want to trade Konerko away"?

There ya go...

Daver
01-05-2008, 06:57 PM
Crede and Konerko for a power hitting first baseman with speed and a gold glove caliber third baseman.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 06:59 PM
Crede and Konerko for a power hitting first baseman with speed and a gold glove caliber third baseman.

Can we get them to throw in a #1 pitcher?

Jjav829
01-05-2008, 07:06 PM
John Lackey


What? :smile:

The Dude
01-05-2008, 07:14 PM
Where's the option for "I don't want to trade Konerko away"?

Thats my choice!!!:gulp:

batmanZoSo
01-05-2008, 07:22 PM
Topps cards.

Optipessimism
01-05-2008, 07:59 PM
I don't think this is much of a contest. Adenhart, Kendrick, Rodriguez, and Santana? Sign me up! I'd love to get a package worth Miguel Cabrera for Paulie, and I don't care if the Angels' GM gets fired in the process!

whitesoxfan1986
01-05-2008, 08:05 PM
I don't think this is much of a contest. Adenhart, Kendrick, Rodriguez, and Santana? Sign me up! I'd love to get a package worth Miguel Cabrera for Paulie, and I don't care if the Angels' GM gets fired in the process!
Agreed 100%, however it would be for Konerko, Crede, and Richar. For those 3 I'd be elated to receive that package.

gogosox16
01-05-2008, 08:09 PM
Agreed 100%, however it would be for Konerko, Crede, and Richar. For those 3 I'd be elated to receive that package.
If we threw in Richar with we would probably get another prospect but it would be a middle tier prospect

spawn
01-05-2008, 08:10 PM
A lifetime supply of churros is the only way I'd trae him. :wink::D:

Rockabilly
01-05-2008, 08:21 PM
PK and Crede to the Angels for Figgins, Kendrick and Willits

drewcifer
01-05-2008, 08:23 PM
PK and Crede to the Angels for Figgins, Kendrick and Willits

we. need.
pitching.

btrain929
01-05-2008, 08:27 PM
PK and Crede to the Angels for Figgins, Kendrick and Willits

We wouldn't need Figgins AND Willits. One or the other. and plus that deal would leave ANA with no leadoff hitter.

Give me Konerko and Crede for Figgins, Speier, and that Jered Weaver character....

Rockabilly
01-05-2008, 08:40 PM
we. need.
pitching.

I don't think Santana is any better than what we have now. I rather go out to the free agent market and get a starter like Colon

Rockabilly
01-05-2008, 08:42 PM
We wouldn't need Figgins AND Willits. One or the other. and plus that deal would leave ANA with no leadoff hitter.

Give me Konerko and Crede for Figgins, Speier, and that Jered Weaver character....

GMJ could lead off for the Angels

drewcifer
01-05-2008, 08:54 PM
I don't think Santana is any better than what we have now. I rather go out to the free agent market and get a starter like Colon

Nobody does. We need to do both (SPs in trade and FA signings). There's $ to be spent, and pieces to be traded. 3 ifs in a rotation of 5.

And Colon is a fat turd waste of $. Have you seen him in a Sox uni? I have. That guy is never coming back again.

Brian26
01-05-2008, 08:55 PM
PK is my favorite player, and I'd hate to see him go. However, you can't deny that the Sox match up nicely with the Angels. When you can look at the Angels roster and easily pick out six or eight guys you wouldn't mind having on the Sox, you have to consider the possiblities.

SoxNation05
01-05-2008, 09:08 PM
I like PK, Crede, and Richar
for
Kendrick, Shields, Rodriguez and Willits

batmanZoSo
01-05-2008, 09:12 PM
we. need.
pitching.

Not as much as we need Topps cards.

drewcifer
01-05-2008, 09:14 PM
Not as much as we need Topps cards.

Hell, I'll say it - I've missed you, man. :cool:

btrain929
01-05-2008, 09:27 PM
GMJ could lead off for the Angels

That doesn't change the fact that we don't need Figgins AND Willits.

gogosox16
01-05-2008, 09:29 PM
That doesn't change the fact that we don't need Figgins AND Willits.
I would rather have Willits than Figgins.

btrain929
01-05-2008, 09:37 PM
I would rather have Willits than Figgins.

He's a little less proven, and I don't know if he can play center. But he's definitely been impressive in his time in the bigs, younger, and we'd have control over him longer than Figgins. If he could handle center or play LF and Quentin handles it somehow, I'd be for it.

SoxNation05
01-05-2008, 09:38 PM
I would rather have Willits than Figgins.
I wouldn't. Figgins has had more than one good season and he can spell Richar time at 2B because it seems unlikely we get Kendrick.

WSox597
01-05-2008, 09:59 PM
I'm in the "Don't trade Paulie" camp. I believe in loyalty, and PK has shown loyalty.

He's also one of the few bonafide 40 HR men the Sox have had in their entire history. The number is three, I believe, which is sad when you think of it.

I'd keep him until he retired, like many wanted to do with Thomas.

Optipessimism
01-05-2008, 10:40 PM
He's also one of the few bonafide 40 HR men the Sox have had in their entire history. The number is three, I believe, which is sad when you think of it.
That's kind of misleading though. The Sox, throughout their history, didn't always play in the Cell.

This is a new era in baseball and we play in the best hitters park in the AL. We're going to have a lot more 40-HR men in the future. Fields should be one, Swisher has a very good chance IMO, Thome is one, Dye did it, and there will be more to come.

Brian26
01-05-2008, 10:52 PM
I'm in the "Don't trade Paulie" camp. I believe in loyalty, and PK has shown loyalty.

He's also one of the few bonafide 40 HR men the Sox have had in their entire history. The number is three, I believe, which is sad when you think of it.

I'd keep him until he retired, like many wanted to do with Thomas.

I'm the biggest PK fan in the world, but the goal is to win another World Series. If trading Konerko brings back some of the pieces we need to complete the championship puzzle, you have to entertain the thought of trading him. It would be better to trade him a year too early than a year too late.

Daver
01-05-2008, 10:59 PM
I'm the biggest PK fan in the world, but the goal is to win another World Series. If trading Konerko brings back some of the pieces we need to complete the championship puzzle, you have to entertain the thought of trading him. It would be better to trade him a year too early than a year too late.

If he isn't traded now, I doubt he ever will be, come May he can control his own destiny.

Brian26
01-06-2008, 12:22 AM
If he isn't traded now, I doubt he ever will be, come May he can control his own destiny.

Good call, I forgot about that. 10/5 rule kicks in.

WhiteSox5187
01-06-2008, 12:28 AM
This is absurd, why do we want to trade Konerko?? Who is going to pick up the slack that he leaves behind? Are we honestly THAT sold on Swisher??? A guy who's career best in HRs is like, 27? We honestly expect him to suddenly jump to a 40HR guy with a .280ish average?

Patrick134
01-06-2008, 12:51 AM
This is absurd, why do we want to trade Konerko?? Who is going to pick up the slack that he leaves behind? Are we honestly THAT sold on Swisher??? A guy who's career best in HRs is like, 27? We honestly expect him to suddenly jump to a 40HR guy with a .280ish average?


It's not about dumping Konerko, it's about going after other pieces. It's not a diss to PK at all. If anything , he'd appreciate all the value he has.

WhiteSox5187
01-06-2008, 03:46 AM
It's not about dumping Konerko, it's about going after other pieces. It's not a diss to PK at all. If anything , he'd appreciate all the value he has.
I'm not saying it's about dumping on (or dumping) Konerko...but if we want to win in '08 we're going to have to score a lot of runs with this pitching staff, and I don't think that Nick Swisher can replace Konerko's bat in the lineup...I don't think we have a bat that can replace Konerko's, in a couple of years Fields might, but certainly not yet.

misty60481
01-06-2008, 06:54 AM
If we cant get somebody that can hit at least 30 HRs forget it. We saw last year how fast we went downhill when we started playing guys like Owens, the Cell is made for power hitters.

LITTLE NELL
01-06-2008, 10:26 AM
Dont trade Paulie, he fields his position well and is a productive hitter. Hes a good teammate and is a credit to the organization, plus can we keep someone from the 05 champs. Ive got a hunch that maybe JR would not want him traded either.

Jjav829
01-06-2008, 10:54 AM
This is absurd, why do we want to trade Konerko?? Who is going to pick up the slack that he leaves behind? Are we honestly THAT sold on Swisher??? A guy who's career best in HRs is like, 27? We honestly expect him to suddenly jump to a 40HR guy with a .280ish average?

Or like 35, but hey, it's only 8 off. :dunno:

ilsox7
01-06-2008, 10:58 AM
Or like 35, but hey, it's only 8 off. :dunno:

And that was, like, playing half his games in a pitcher's ballpark. But why should people let facts get in the way of their arguments?

turners56
01-06-2008, 02:03 PM
Who in their right minds trades K-Rod? That's the most horrible choice on the poll, next to trading Pauley for nothing but prospects.

batmanZoSo
01-06-2008, 02:14 PM
Who's acting like Swisher is a big dropoff in power from Konerko? :lol:

An average Bonerko year is about 35 homers anyway. He's not exactly Babe Ruth. I'd take a few less from Swisher with a better on-base, more pitches seen and who knows...maybe Swisher will be a 40 home run guy.

turners56
01-06-2008, 02:17 PM
Who's acting like Swisher is a big dropoff in power from Konerko? :lol:

An average Bonerko year is about 35 homers anyway. He's not exactly Babe Ruth. I'd take a few less from Swisher with a better on-base, more pitches seen and who knows...maybe Swisher will be a 40 home run guy.

He's probably not, hitting at the Cell benefits everybody. Wouldn't be surprised if Swisher hits 35 again. But Konerko is a 40 homer guy when he has a good year, Swisher is a 35 homer guy who can't hit for average in his best year...he might be able to walk, but even .270 from the guy is a little too much to ask for. Pauley isn't a great hitter either, but he's gonna at least guarantee a .270 + average annually.

Brian26
01-06-2008, 02:37 PM
and who knows...maybe Swisher will be a 40 home run guy.

At the Cell, that's not out of the realm of possibility.

thomas35forever
01-06-2008, 02:38 PM
I've always been a Shields fan and Figgins could play anywhere as well as solve our leadoff problem. My only concern is what would that mean for Jerry Owens. Would he move over to left or would he back up Quentin perhaps?

WhiteSox5187
01-06-2008, 04:39 PM
Or like 35, but hey, it's only 8 off. :dunno:
And pray tell, how many times has Mr. Swisher hit 35 HRs?

Look, he MIGHT become a 40 HR guy, but it's an awfully big risk to trade Konerko and say "Don't worry! We got Nick Swisher to replace him!"

batmanZoSo
01-06-2008, 04:45 PM
And pray tell, how many times has Mr. Swisher hit 35 HRs?

Look, he MIGHT become a 40 HR guy, but it's an awfully big risk to trade Konerko and say "Don't worry! We got Nick Swisher to replace him!"

Is it a requirement to have a guy who hits the magic 40 home run mark? Power has never been a problem with the White Sox, since the early 90s when Frank was essentially the only guy and nobody sees it becoming one except you apparently.

Fields has more power potential than Konerko, what about him? If he learns how to lay off pitches out of the strike zone a little bit he can hit 50.

There's really no reason to fret over possibly losing Konerko because his replacement hits 5-10 less home runs per year--and he is young and could potentially develop into a 40 home run guy.

ilsox7
01-06-2008, 04:48 PM
There's really no reason to fret over possibly losing Konerko because his replacement hits 5-10 less home runs per year--and he is young and could potentially develop into a 40 home run guy.

Not only that, but PK's power has been in a steady decline over the last 4 years.

batmanZoSo
01-06-2008, 04:51 PM
Right. I mean not that he's washed up by any stretch, but he has peaked already.

All signs point to trading him now:

- on the downslope of his career
- months away from becoming a 10/5 guy
- team is walking a fine line with payroll
- team already has plenty of power and younger options

And on top of that, he's a WS hero and he's well known around baseball, thus he could probably get you a little more than an equal player without those attributes.

kittle42
01-06-2008, 05:07 PM
I don't want Konerko traded. If he is, it better bring the Sox back a leadoff man and a starting pitcher, minimum.

ViPeRx007
01-06-2008, 05:26 PM
Trading Konerko makes sense to me. He'll forever be one of my favorite Sox players, but that's not a reason to keep a guy. I'm a fan of the team first and foremost and trading him will improve the team in the long run.

I went with the Adenhart, Rodriguez, Kendrick and Santana option. It seems like we'd be getting the most return. Take out Rodriguez, gve them Konerko and Crede and put Figgins and Shields into there and I'd be even happier...though that one seems fairly unlikely.

ViPeRx007
01-06-2008, 05:37 PM
Who in their right minds trades K-Rod? That's the most horrible choice on the poll, next to trading Pauley for nothing but prospects.




psssst. The Rodriguez in the poll is not K-Rod, it's a prospect in their minor league system.

Well, I hope that's not K-Rod because if it is, and the Sox don't take that one, they're idiots.

santo=dorf
01-06-2008, 05:38 PM
Not only that, but PK's power has been in a steady decline over the last 4 years.
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/242_1B_season_full_2_20071001.png

Wrong

batmanZoSo
01-06-2008, 05:43 PM
http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/242_1B_season_full_2_20071001.png

Wrong

This chart just shows disco record sales.

WhiteSox5187
01-06-2008, 06:01 PM
Is it a requirement to have a guy who hits the magic 40 home run mark? Power has never been a problem with the White Sox, since the early 90s when Frank was essentially the only guy and nobody sees it becoming one except you apparently.

Fields has more power potential than Konerko, what about him? If he learns how to lay off pitches out of the strike zone a little bit he can hit 50.

There's really no reason to fret over possibly losing Konerko because his replacement hits 5-10 less home runs per year--and he is young and could potentially develop into a 40 home run guy.
Well my point here is if we trade Konerko and we're trying to win NOW who replaces his bat for '08? I think relying on Swisher and Fields is a bit much to ask out of them, especially since seeing as Fields will be playing in his second year...I don't think trading Konerko will hurt us long term (in fact it will help) but it's been pretty clear we're aiming to win now, and losing Konerko's bat will in fact help us in the long term but hurt us short term. And this whole "Konerko's best years are behind him" thing, the guy can still hit 40 HRs and 100 RBIs. I don't think trading him now will be like getting rid of Maddux in his prime, but I think it would be like us trading Harold in '89 and saying "Ah, his best years are behind him." Yea myabe they were but he was STILL a very productive player for the next 12 years.

Tragg
01-06-2008, 06:05 PM
I'd like a near ready CF and/or near ready SS. I don't think they Angels have that for trade.
i don't want middle relievers or 1 year rents.

batmanZoSo
01-06-2008, 06:07 PM
Well my point here is if we trade Konerko and we're trying to win NOW who replaces his bat for '08? I think relying on Swisher and Fields is a bit much to ask out of them, especially since seeing as Fields will be playing in his second year...I don't think trading Konerko will hurt us long term (in fact it will help) but it's been pretty clear we're aiming to win now, and losing Konerko's bat will in fact help us in the long term but hurt us short term. And this whole "Konerko's best years are behind him" thing, the guy can still hit 40 HRs and 100 RBIs. I don't think trading him now will be like getting rid of Maddux in his prime, but I think it would be like us trading Harold in '89 and saying "Ah, his best years are behind him." Yea myabe they were but he was STILL a very productive player for the next 12 years.

He might be able to get us Kendrick and Santana, which is two needs. That helps us win now.

FarWestChicago
01-06-2008, 06:08 PM
This chart just shows disco record sales.You're right. And what do disco record sales have to do with anything? Silly Dorf. :D:

voodoochile
01-06-2008, 06:11 PM
You're right. And what do disco record sales have to do with anything? Silly Dorf. :D:

Who cares? There's a graph in this thread. Any thread with a graph automatically rules.

Daver
01-06-2008, 06:23 PM
Who cares? There's a graph in this thread. Any thread with a graph automatically rules.

Pie chart>graph.

batmanZoSo
01-06-2008, 06:27 PM
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/ZoSoKarl/untitled333.jpg

Does anyone have the real size version of this one? Somehow when I saved it, it shrunk.

:mad:

Tragg
01-06-2008, 06:28 PM
Fields has more power potential than Konerko, what about him? If he learns how to lay off pitches out of the strike zone a little bit he can hit 50.

There's really no reason to fret over possibly losing Konerko because his replacement hits 5-10 less home runs per year--and he is young and could potentially develop into a 40 home run guy.
I agree with you on Fields -if he can learn to play the 1B position he'd probably be good at it. He didn't play a lick at 1B last year, so it doesn't seem that that's where the Sox thinking is. And if Fields can field the position, then trading Paul for the right package could be brilliant.

But if we trade Konerko and got Swisher to be a first basemen, then that's a high price for a 25-30 homer first baseman. If he's a CF, okay. What is he?

Brian26
01-06-2008, 06:29 PM
There's really no reason to fret over possibly losing Konerko because his replacement hits 5-10 less home runs per year--and he is young and could potentially develop into a 40 home run guy.

Not only that, but PK's power has been in a steady decline over the last 4 years.

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/242_1B_season_full_2_20071001.png

Wrong

Clearly, the context of Ilsox's comment was in regards to PK's power in terms of homeruns, in which he is absolutely correct.

2004 HR Total: 41
2005 HR Total: 40
2006 HR Total: 35
2007 HR Total: 31

That appears to be a steady decline to me. SLG percentage was not discussed or implied in the originally quoted text.

ilsox7
01-06-2008, 06:33 PM
Clearly, the context of Ilsox's comment was in regards to PK's power in terms of homeruns, in which he is absolutely correct.

2004 HR Total: 41
2005 HR Total: 40
2006 HR Total: 35
2007 HR Total: 31

That appears to be a steady decline to me. SLG percentage was not discussed or implied in the originally quoted text.

How dare you use facts in a debate? I mean, just b/c the entire discussion was about home run power, why would one assume that was what my response was directed toward? Sheesh!

voodoochile
01-06-2008, 06:34 PM
Pie chart>graph.

Pie chart elitist scum... Bar charts for all my friends...

Brian26
01-06-2008, 06:35 PM
How dare you use facts in a debate? I mean, just b/c the entire discussion was about home run power, why would one assume that was what my response was directed toward? Sheesh!

I will skew the facts as I see fit if it allows me a chance to introduce a meaningless Excel graph into the discussion. :redneck

Tragg
01-06-2008, 06:39 PM
Pie chart elitist scum... Bar charts for all my friends...
Nothing beats the horizontal bar - aka the Gantt Chart, freshman

voodoochile
01-06-2008, 06:46 PM
How dare you use facts in a debate? I mean, just b/c the entire discussion was about home run power, why would one assume that was what my response was directed toward? Sheesh!

Well then say Home runs have decreased over the past 4 years.

Just for ****s and giggles, here's PK's doubles and total XBH production the past 4 years...

22 - 63 XBH
24 - 64 XBH
30 - 65 XBH
34 - 65 XBH

Maybe the decline in home runs is a factor of other elements. One thing for sure, PK had less protection than in any of the other years due to long periods of injury and ineffectiveness by Dye and Thome.

Maybe that's just how it goes in baseball and every year, PK is going to hit roughly 65 XBH and due to luck or wind speeds or protection or even how he is approaching the at bat at given times is going to play a part in how many of them leave the park on the fly and how many of them bounce off the wall 3 feet below the line.

If you are going to imply that PK is losing his big stick, it will take a deeper analysis than merely pointing out his HR totals have dropped.

ilsox7
01-06-2008, 07:08 PM
I will skew the facts as I see fit if it allows me a chance to introduce a meaningless Excel graph into the discussion. :redneck

With respect to the discussion about Swisher and Konerko's home run power, I put together the following graph. I think it's quite relevant.

ilsox7
01-06-2008, 07:13 PM
Well then say Home runs have decreased over the past 4 years.

Just for ****s and giggles, here's PK's doubles and total XBH production the past 4 years...

22 - 63 XBH
24 - 64 XBH
30 - 65 XBH
34 - 65 XBH

Maybe the decline in home runs is a factor of other elements. One thing for sure, PK had less protection than in any of the other years due to long periods of injury and ineffectiveness by Dye and Thome.

Maybe that's just how it goes in baseball and every year, PK is going to hit roughly 65 XBH and due to luck or wind speeds or protection or even how he is approaching the at bat at given times is going to play a part in how many of them leave the park on the fly and how many of them bounce off the wall 3 feet below the line.

If you are going to imply that PK is losing his big stick, it will take a deeper analysis than merely pointing out his HR totals have dropped.

Except, the discussion we were having was about replacing a 40 home run guy. I was simply pointing out that we really are not losing a 40 home run guy if PK is traded. No one was talking about doubles, OBP, RBIs, etc.

If we want to expand the discussion to those lengths, fine. But as it was originally framed, the issue was Swisher's home run power versus PK's home run power. Someone just wanted to look cool and post a meaningless graph to try to prove a point that wasn't even being debated. That's how the discussion moved toward slugging %.

EDIT: My original point, which has been lost here, was not to show that PK is in some horrible decline. I was merely pointing out that if we lost him, it is well within the realm of possibility that the addition of Swisher will completely/nearly counteract the loss of power with no PK in the line-up. That's all.

Jjav829
01-06-2008, 07:27 PM
With respect to the discussion about Swisher and Konerko's home run power, I put together the following graph. I think it's quite relevant.

I like graphs, too!

Here is one comparing Paul Konerko's steals totals to those by Jose Reyes.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=5617&d=1199665509

As you can see, Konerko had a very slim in 2000 and 2001, due somewhat to Jose Reyes not being in the major leagues. Nice excuse, Jose. But since then, Konerko has fallen way behind Reyes.

This is the kind of analysis you can only get at WSI. :thumbsup:

Edit: I just realized I forgot to label the X-axis so 1=2000, 2=2001, etc. You get the idea. Don't hold me to such high expectations.

ilsox7
01-06-2008, 07:30 PM
I like graphs, too!

Here is one comparing Paul Konerko's steals totals to those by Jose Reyes.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=5617&d=1199665509

As you can see, Konerko had a very slim in 2000 and 2001, due somewhat to Jose Reyes not being in the major leagues. Nice excuse, Jose. But since then, Konerko has fallen way behind Reyes.

This is the kind of analysis you can only get at WSI. :thumbsup:

Your use of 3-D is so suave.

Brian26
01-06-2008, 08:13 PM
I want some of this action.

Here's a meaningless chart which graphs Konerko's HRs vs. GIDPs over his Sox career.

http://s72.photobucket.com/albums/i172/brian2653/KonerkoChart.jpg

batmanZoSo
01-06-2008, 08:26 PM
Clearly, the context of Ilsox's comment was in regards to PK's power in terms of homeruns, in which he is absolutely correct.

2004 HR Total: 41
2005 HR Total: 40
2006 HR Total: 35
2007 HR Total: 31

That appears to be a steady decline to me. SLG percentage was not discussed or implied in the originally quoted text.

SLG is more important than HR though. If SLG and also EBH remain more or less consistent, which they have, and home runs haven't fallen off the map, which they haven't, then who cares..

And I'm saying this as a guy who wants to get rid of Konerko. Let's also keep in mind that Konerko's subpar 07 was on par with the rest of the team.

I want some of this action.

Here's a meaningless chart which graphs Konerko's HRs vs. GIDPs over his Sox career.

http://s72.photobucket.com/albums/i172/brian2653/KonerkoChart.jpg

Notice how DP's were way down in '05? Everything went right that year.

ilsox7
01-06-2008, 08:31 PM
SLG is more important than HR though. If SLG and also EBH remain more or less consistent, which they have, and home runs haven't fallen off the map, which they haven't, then who cares..



I am not sure anyone here disagrees with that. But the context of the debate was not framed around EBH and SLG. In the big picture, EBH and SLG surely are important stat lines. And they may/probably are more important than home runs. But a guy who hits 40 home runs still means a lot, as he will generally strike more fear into a guy who hits 15 home runs and 50 doubles.

batmanZoSo
01-06-2008, 08:45 PM
I am not sure anyone here disagrees with that. But the context of the debate was not framed around EBH and SLG. In the big picture, EBH and SLG surely are important stat lines. And they may/probably are more important than home runs. But a guy who hits 40 home runs still means a lot, as he will generally strike more fear into a guy who hits 15 home runs and 50 doubles.

Of course but that's not the kind of player we're talking about. Konerko is a feared power hitter.

ilsox7
01-06-2008, 08:48 PM
Of course but that's not the kind of player we're talking about. Konerko is a feared power hitter.

Generally, I would agree. However, I think he is less feared today than he was a couple of years ago.

batmanZoSo
01-06-2008, 08:51 PM
Generally, I would agree. However, I think he is less feared today than he was a couple of years ago.

It depends whether he bounces back. He simply had one down year and it's not like he was any less feared last year whilst the down year was in progress.

WhiteSox5187
01-06-2008, 09:42 PM
It depends whether he bounces back. He simply had one down year and it's not like he was any less feared last year whilst the down year was in progress.
I agree with this, I think the big thing with Konerko is that when he is hot you can pick your poison, pitch to him? Or would you rather face Thome? Or Dye? And the fact that those two were so banged up last year REALLY hurt Paulie. Either way, Paulie is still not a guy you fool around with. You can't afford to go down 2-0 to him and have to come back with a fastball because he can make you pay.

RadioheadRocks
01-06-2008, 11:17 PM
a Rally Monkey. :tongue:

GoSox40
01-07-2008, 04:28 PM
As much as I hate to say this the Sox will have to trade Paul Konerko. If they sent him to Aneheim for Figgins and Santana that gives you two much needed positions.

Opening Day Lineup with PK gone.

1. Figgins CF
2. Cabrera SS
3. Thome DH
4. Dye RF
5. Swisher LF
6. AJ C
7. Crede 3B
8. Fields 1B
9. Richar 2B (Uribe)

SP Burhele
SP Vazquez
SP Contreras
SP Santana
SP Danks

RP Linebrink
RP Thorton
RP Wassermann
RP MacDougal

CL Jenks

That doesnt sound so bad!

SoxNation05
01-07-2008, 04:33 PM
As much as I hate to say this the Sox will have to trade Paul Konerko. If they sent him to Aneheim for Figgins and Santana that gives you two much needed positions.

Opening Day Lineup with PK gone.

1. Figgins CF
2. Cabrera SS
3. Thome DH
4. Dye RF
5. Swisher LF
6. AJ C
7. Crede 3B
8. Fields 1B
9. Richar 2B (Uribe)

SP Burhele
SP Vazquez
SP Contreras
SP Santana
SP Danks

RP Linebrink
RP Thorton
RP Wassermann
RP MacDougal

CL Jenks

That doesnt sound so bad!

Sorry sir, No Crede. Maybe they trade him for Chris Capuano.

CF Figgins
SS Cabrera
DH Thome
RF Dye
1B Swisher
3B Fields
C Pierzysnki
LF Quentin
2B Richar

SPs, Buerhle, Vazques, Santana, Danks, Contreras

Put Capuano in the bullpen til he learns to pitch.

GoSox40
01-07-2008, 04:36 PM
You may be correct but I just think they will keep him? Also I forgot about Ramirez, I plug him in at 2B in the 9 hole!

turners56
01-07-2008, 04:39 PM
Swisher would fair better as a clean-up hitter, Dye is a 3rd or 5th spot hitter. Plus why would Milwaukee need Crede (nobody wants Capuano anyways), they have the almighty Ryan "Hebrew Hammer" Braun. I say throw him in the PK deal and get a Scot Shiels out of it.

SoxNation05
01-07-2008, 04:40 PM
Another PK trade which is better but I have no idea if all teams would do it.

Sox: PK, Danks and Crede
Orioles: Bedard
Angels: Adenhart, Kendrick and Figgins

Sox get Bedard and Figgs
Angels get PK and Crede
Orioles get Kendrick, Danks and Adenhart

This would have to happen in ST.

JohnTucker0814
01-07-2008, 04:43 PM
Another PK trade which is better but I have no idea if all teams would do it.

Sox: PK, Danks and Crede
Orioles: Bedard
Angels: Adenhart, Kendrick and Figgins

Sox get Bedard and Figgs
Angels get PK and Crede
Orioles get Kendrick, Danks and Adenhart

This would have to happen in ST.

That sounds good, but honestly if the Angels are giving up Hendrick, I'd rather us get him... =) Plus, I don't think the Orioles will take Kendrick, Danks Adenhart... not that it's not worth it, but they are wanting and Johan Santana return...

SoxNation05
01-07-2008, 04:44 PM
Swisher would fair better as a clean-up hitter, Dye is a 3rd or 5th spot hitter. Plus why would Milwaukee need Crede (nobody wants Capuano anyways), they have the almighty Ryan "Hebrew Hammer" Braun. I say throw him in the PK deal and get a Scot Shiels out of it.
Braun is a complete butcher at 3B and they want to move him to left because they don't have a LF. Also as sad as it Capuano is about as much as we would get for Crede.

SoxNation05
01-07-2008, 04:51 PM
That sounds good, but honestly if the Angels are giving up Hendrick, I'd rather us get him... =) Plus, I don't think the Orioles will take Kendrick, Danks Adenhart... not that it's not worth it, but they are wanting and Johan Santana return...
I don't know. I am sure the Sox and the Angels would do that. But they are getting a top pitching prospect, a ready star in Kendrick, and Danks has 2-3 potential. Look at our team with this trade.

CF Figgins
SS Cabrera
DH Thome
RF Dye
1B Swisher
3B Fields
C Pierzynski
LF Quentin
2B Richar (Rameriez and Uribe)

Buerhle, Bedard, Vazquez, Contreras, Floyd

If Contreras or Floyd gives us 12 wins and an era under 4.5 we are solid.

DickAllen72
01-07-2008, 04:53 PM
Just trade Crede straight up for Figgins. They're both one year rentals, the Angels can use Crede at 3B and the Sox can use Figgins at CF and lead-off.

turners56
01-07-2008, 04:57 PM
Braun is a complete butcher at 3B and they want to move him to left because they don't have a LF. Also as sad as it Capuano is about as much as we would get for Crede.

Braun in left would make sense, but is Milwaukee even going to have Crede for more than a year? If Joe plays up to 06 standards (which he might as well in that great Milwaukee lineup), he's going to want 10-15 million a year, on top of that a 3B who play great D and produce on offense don't grow on trees. So in the long-term it won't benefit them at all. Although losing only Capuano wouldn't be a bad deal. Kenny should wait a bit more to see if anything else opens up...even if it is only a rumor.

SoxNation05
01-07-2008, 04:58 PM
Just trade Crede straight up for Figgins. They're both one year rentals, the Angels can use Crede at 3B and the Sox can use Figgins at CF and lead-off.
3B in contract year, Boras client, just got off of a back surgery or speedy leadoff hitter, plays all positions and is cheap. I don't think the Angels would do that.

gobears1987
01-07-2008, 05:02 PM
As much as I like Paulie, if we can make the right deal, it could be the extra hump our team needs. I guess it would sort of be the equivalent of trading Lee, a good player, to get the piece we need. We know the Angels really wanted Paulie too.

SoxNation05
01-07-2008, 05:07 PM
As much as I like Paulie, if we can make the right deal, it could be the extra hump our team needs. I guess it would sort of be the equivalent of trading Lee, a good player, to get the piece we need. We know the Angels really wanted Paulie too.
Is there anyother team besides the Angels Paulie can go to?

WhiteOut05
01-07-2008, 05:15 PM
Yea, there is Baltimore. Remember they were the other team besides the Angels that made an aggressive run at him in 05.
The sox could package Paulie and Floyd (a native of that area) in a deal for Bedard. Or obviously there could be a possibility of a blockbust that includes Bedard and Roberts, but that seems unlikely.

As far as the Angels trade goes:

There are a lot of people who want Figgins, but I would much rather have Willits. Willits is a definite leadoff guy, whereas Figgins simply can. Remember, he was slumping at leadoff, then Scioscia moved him to 9th and put willits at leadoff, thats when their offense took off. Plus, when Figgins becomes a FA, he'll ask for ungodly money (see Juan Pierre's deal), so I just feel Willits would be more of a sparkplug than Figgins who showed more signs of inconsistency.

I LOVE Weaver, so if a trade were to happen, Id like to see Paulie and Joe and one more guy go for Weaver, Willits, Kenrick. Paulie is good for at LEAST two solid guys, and Joe could get a guy like Willits. And if the Angels refuse to give up Weaver, and they offer Santana or Saunders, then you ask for Adenhart as well.
Or Shields would be another alternative.

SoxNation05
01-07-2008, 05:46 PM
Yea, there is Baltimore. Remember they were the other team besides the Angels that made an aggressive run at him in 05.
The sox could package Paulie and Floyd (a native of that area) in a deal for Bedard. Or obviously there could be a possibility of a blockbust that includes Bedard and Roberts, but that seems unlikely.

As far as the Angels trade goes:

There are a lot of people who want Figgins, but I would much rather have Willits. Willits is a definite leadoff guy, whereas Figgins simply can. Remember, he was slumping at leadoff, then Scioscia moved him to 9th and put willits at leadoff, thats when their offense took off. Plus, when Figgins becomes a FA, he'll ask for ungodly money (see Juan Pierre's deal), so I just feel Willits would be more of a sparkplug than Figgins who showed more signs of inconsistency.

I LOVE Weaver, so if a trade were to happen, Id like to see Paulie and Joe and one more guy go for Weaver, Willits, Kenrick. Paulie is good for at LEAST two solid guys, and Joe could get a guy like Willits. And if the Angels refuse to give up Weaver, and they offer Santana or Saunders, then you ask for Adenhart as well.
Or Shields would be another alternative.

Honestly, I think what you are asking for is too much for the Angels to give up. I want Figgins, Kendrick and Santana/Saunders for PK, Crede and Oneli Perez.

santo=dorf
01-07-2008, 06:34 PM
Well then say Home runs have decreased over the past 4 years.

Just for ****s and giggles, here's PK's doubles and total XBH production the past 4 years...

22 - 63 XBH
24 - 64 XBH
30 - 65 XBH
34 - 65 XBH

Maybe the decline in home runs is a factor of other elements. One thing for sure, PK had less protection than in any of the other years due to long periods of injury and ineffectiveness by Dye and Thome.

Maybe that's just how it goes in baseball and every year, PK is going to hit roughly 65 XBH and due to luck or wind speeds or protection or even how he is approaching the at bat at given times is going to play a part in how many of them leave the park on the fly and how many of them bounce off the wall 3 feet below the line.

If you are going to imply that PK is losing his big stick, it will take a deeper analysis than merely pointing out his HR totals have dropped.
http://vess.homelinux.com/funnay/a_winner_is_you.jpg

I imagine anyone stupid enough to judge a player's power soley on the amount of home runs he hits thinks Mark Buehrle isn't quite the pitcher he once was because his win total has been dropping and is almost half of what it was back in 2002. :rolleyes::rolling:

Look at Konerko's XBH/AB over the years:
1999 0.115
2000 0.101
2001 0.115
2002 0.100
2003 0.083
2004 0.112
2005 0.111
2006 0.115
2007 0.118


Why that doesn't look anything remotely like a "steady decline" to me. In fact, that looks like it's headed the other way. :rolleyes:

kittle42
01-07-2008, 06:41 PM
http://vess.homelinux.com/funnay/a_winner_is_you.jpg


Challenge Next Match!

turners56
01-07-2008, 08:39 PM
As much as I like Paulie, if we can make the right deal, it could be the extra hump our team needs. I guess it would sort of be the equivalent of trading Lee, a good player, to get the piece we need. We know the Angels really wanted Paulie too.

This rumor reminds me of that trade so much, hopefully the outcome is the same...but that's a mad hope...