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btrain929
01-04-2008, 10:15 PM
We all know how much the idea of trading Konerko to the Angels for a package of players has been discussed on this site. This idea has made it out to another website, although of course it's not on espn.com or anything.

On MLBTradeRumors.com (yes, yes, I know, people think this site is stupid. Of course it shouldn't be taken seriously, but it is a convenient place to put all the rumors that are put in print or are online) the guy who runs MLBtraderumors said he received a "solid tip" that the Angels and Sox are discussing this trade. but I'd personally rather trade him for a solid #2-3 starter for the rotation, but if we can get a great package for Konerko and Crede, I'd be a supporter for it. They can easily give us players to solve our leadoff/CF (Figgins), bullpen (Shields/Speier), or a possible starter (E.Santana). Here's the link:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/01/angels-discussi.html#comments (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/01/angels-discussi.html#comments)

Let the WSI madness begin.....

NSSoxFan
01-04-2008, 10:17 PM
mlbtraderumors source? WSI

btrain929
01-04-2008, 10:19 PM
mlbtraderumors source? WSI

Tell me about it. That's the first thing I thought of. But if that truly was the case, I think he either would have listed our site as the source, or not listed it at all. Since he said he had a "solid tip" makes me think it something a tad bit more serious.

sox1970
01-04-2008, 10:24 PM
Bruce Levine has been pumping up this rumor for a couple weeks.

Bodhi
01-04-2008, 10:27 PM
Konerko for Garland

DumpJerry
01-04-2008, 10:33 PM
Has anyone noticed that most of the deals Kenny has done over the years were rarely the subject of rumors? Who saw the Swisher deal coming?

That's not to say that the rumors have never come to fruition. There were rumors that we were trying to get Cintron. It did happen, 12 months later.

soxtalker
01-04-2008, 10:35 PM
On MLBTradeRumors.com (yes, yes, I know, people think this site is stupid.
...

I read both MLBTraderumors and WSI (the latter for several years). I haven't noticed a universal dislike of MLBTraderumors on WSI. And there shouldn't be. The vast majority of their posts are simply rumors or suggestions from various newspapers and websites across the country. They aren't presented as anything else, and links are there. It's more a question of how believable the underlying links are.

Having said that, this one is different. There is no mention of the source -- much less a link. While it is intriguing, it's a little hard to estimate whether there's anything there.

soxtalker
01-04-2008, 10:37 PM
Has anyone noticed that most of the deals Kenny has done over the years were rarely the subject of rumors? Who saw the Swisher deal coming?

That's not to say that the rumors have never come to fruition. There were rumors that we were trying to get Cintron. It did happen, 12 months later.

It's a good point. I think Garcia (from Seattle) was rumored for awhile, though not the composition of the deal. But most of the deals seem to be under the radar.

Jjav829
01-04-2008, 10:47 PM
Whatever. A possible Konerko deal has been rumored for a little while now and a deal does make some sense. So now that site posts it and if a deal happens, then can say, "Hey, we called the Konerko to the Angels trade." *yawn*

getonbckthr
01-04-2008, 10:51 PM
Konerko/Crede for Figgins/Santana/Kendrick/Bootcheck? Ok they can have Uribe as well.:D:
If we were to get Santana could we please move Contreras for bag of balls, a fungalow bat, and a bucket of Churro dough?

DumpJerry
01-04-2008, 10:52 PM
It's a good point. I think Garcia (from Seattle) was rumored for awhile, though not the composition of the deal. But most of the deals seem to be under the radar.
Actully, the Garcia deal was an easy to predict since he was getting married to Ozzie's niece. As you said, the only mystery was who we would cough up for Freddy.

The deal for Podsednik became a rumor about 4 hours before it took place.

The Thome/Rowand deal came out of the clear blue.

sox1970
01-04-2008, 10:55 PM
McCarthy/Danks was a bombshell at the time.

DumpJerry
01-04-2008, 10:57 PM
I think the other GMs appreciate how Kenny keeps his mouth shut. This way, when a deal does not happen, nobody is yelling at the other team's GM.

Tragg
01-04-2008, 11:39 PM
If we trade Konerko, I hope we get some plus talent for him: not a bunch of mediocre players. We don't need more inconsistent gopher ball pitchers, we don't need bad defenders and for goodness sakes don't give real talent for more veteran middle relievers - we've got a bunch of those right now left over from the career middle reliever approach that failed last year.

Sockinchisox
01-04-2008, 11:40 PM
I will cry if GMJ is in this deal.

Unregistered
01-04-2008, 11:50 PM
Last I heard, the Angels were pretty confident Casey Kotchman could put up Konerko-like numbers at a fraction of the cost. I can't imagine them giving up much if the Sox were offering him, so I gotta think they can get more from him from another team that actually has a need at first base.

soxwon
01-04-2008, 11:50 PM
For Chone earvin n kendricks do it in a heartbeat

batmanZoSo
01-05-2008, 12:16 AM
Has anyone noticed that most of the deals Kenny has done over the years were rarely the subject of rumors?

That I'll give you.

thedudeabides
01-05-2008, 12:18 AM
For Chone earvin n kendricks do it in a heartbeat

You can count Kendrick out of any deal. They wouldn't even include him in a package for M. Cabrera.

Brian26
01-05-2008, 12:25 AM
You can count Kendrick out of any deal. They wouldn't even include him in a package for M. Cabrera.

Yeah, but he's talking about Kendricks. Maybe he's still available with Jeff Barry.

batmanZoSo
01-05-2008, 12:29 AM
Berry/Barry. Under the Randar! :bandance:

psyclonis
01-05-2008, 01:00 AM
wow mlbtraderumors made rotoworld:
http://rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=2493

With the swisher trade I doubt anymore position players besides crede/uribe are dealt, but I do see konerko getting traded next offseason :x

SoxNation05
01-05-2008, 01:07 AM
PK, Crede, BA, Uribe and Macdougal for Figgs, Speier, Santana and Adenhart. Or PK for GMJ, Shields and Santana.

Optipessimism
01-05-2008, 01:12 AM
I will cry if GMJ is in this deal.

He gets $9mil in '08, $10mil in '09, $11mil in '10, and $12mil in 2011, which takes him through his age 37 season. It's ugly and he pretty much sucks as a hitter outside of his career '06 season, but if taking on that contract (as well as all the bad 'roid stuff) gets us a much better package, I'd be all for it.

Something like Konerko + Crede for GMJ, Casey Kotchman, Nick Adenhart, Sean O'Sullivan, and Jordan Walden would definitely work for me.

This would hurt the Angels farm, but they have the SP to absorb a loss like this IMO. They could move Crede to 3B and upgrade defense, put Figgins in LF and upgrade D over Garrett Anderson, keep Hunter in CF, and let Anderson have the DH role with Rivera and Willits filling in every so often on the bench.

A trade like that would negate the loss of Gio + DLS. GMJ would give us a pretty good defensive CF (at least for a couple years anyway) to bat ninth and turn over the lineup. We could move Swish to 1B and then use Kotchman + pitching to make a play at Brian Roberts for 2B and the lead off spot. We could then either keep our pitching prospects and rebuild the farm or go after a starter. I know the popular name is Bedard because he's got the sexy K numbers, but I'd love to see KW go under the radar after Ian Snell. Snell behind Mark and Javy would be very, very awesome.

SoxNation05
01-05-2008, 01:29 AM
I like the part how GMJ gets us a better package. How about PK and Crede for GMJ, Adenhart, Santana, and Shields.

Optipessimism
01-05-2008, 01:48 AM
I like the part how GMJ gets us a better package. How about PK and Crede for GMJ, Adenhart, Santana, and Shields.
Me too, although I don't think we need Shields though. We really, really, really need to get a serviceable long man since no one in our current pen is capable of throwing more than one inning reliably. Plus we already have two RH setup men, a righty closer, and a righty specialist. With Thornton as a lefty setup man and Logan as a lefty specialist, aside from a long man, we pretty much have the pen filled out. I would have rather seen KW spend less money on Vizcaino instead of Linebrink, but oh well.

I think we should target Juan Cruz from the DBacks first if he's available, or maybe even go after Chad Gaudin of Oakland. Gaudin underwent surgery in his hip and can probably be had for next to nothing. Since Billy Beane apparently LOVES the Sox farm system, especially pitchers, maybe we can get him for Oneli Perez or something. We need someone in there with some experience who can eat innings in the pen and spot start. Julian Tavarez of the Red Sox could work too. Just please, no more Nick Masset.

SoxNation05
01-05-2008, 01:55 AM
Me too, although I don't think we need Shields though. We really, really, really need to get a serviceable long man since no one in our current pen is capable of throwing more than one inning reliably, plus we already have two RH setup men. I would have rather seen KW spend less money on Vizcaino instead of Linebrink, but oh well.

I think we should target Juan Cruz from the DBacks first if he's available, or maybe even go after Chad Gaudin of Oakland. Gaudin underwent surgery in his hip and can probably be had for next to nothing. Since Billy Beane apparently LOVES the Sox farm system, especially pitchers, maybe we can get him for Oneli Perez or something. We need someone in there with some experience who can eat innings in the pen and spot start. Julian Tavarez of the Red Sox could work too. Just please, no more Nick Masset.

Shields is probably the best middle reliever in the league. What's to argue with?

Optipessimism
01-05-2008, 02:07 AM
Shields is probably the best middle reliever in the league. What's to argue with?

You can say the same thing about Linebrink, but like Linebrink, Shields really fell off over the second half of last year. Plus I think he's a FA after this year.

Between MacDougal and Linebrink we should end up with one guy capable of getting three outs in the 8th inning every so often (unless Ozzie uses them as specialists for some reason, which is likely). What we do need is someone that we can turn to who can keep us in the game when our starters can't get out of the 5th and 6th innings, or when we have a double header, or when one of our starters get knocked out early, etc.

If all of our starters pitched 200+ IP we'd still need a capable longman to work about 70IP. Considering that we'll be EXTREMELY lucky to get 350IP out of the back two spots of our rotation, we'll need another 50+ IP out of our pen. Actually, we'd be best off with two relatively reliable longmen but I doubt we'll even have one.

soxfan43
01-05-2008, 02:13 AM
If this deal in any way has gary matthews in it, it's a terrible move. The guy has the HGH thing, has had ONE good year and bounced around half the league it seems. Yes, i know he's got an amazing glove, but I'll take Owens speed in center at that cost than anything Matthews gives us at his cost.

Optipessimism
01-05-2008, 02:21 AM
If this deal in any way has gary matthews in it, it's a terrible move. The guy has the HGH thing, has had ONE good year and bounced around half the league it seems. Yes, i know he's got an amazing glove, but I'll take Owens speed in center at that cost than anything Matthews gives us at his cost.

Owens doesn't have an arm. Jerry should never be mentioned as a CF candidate. Never.

Matthews sucks, admittedly, but if assuming a bad contract could net us some prospects to help out the farm or at least be used to get us a nice MLB player I think we should go for it. If the Sox don't want to spend the money in the draft and instead want to buy players, assuming a bad contract is one way of doing that. Of course, that will never happen and even if KW wanted to I doubt JR would green light a move like that.

Dr_Comiskey90
01-05-2008, 03:13 AM
As many of my fellow Sox Fans have stated, why trade Konerko if were looking to contend, thats like going into combat and trading away one your machine guns for 3 knives

mjmcend
01-05-2008, 03:31 AM
As many of my fellow Sox Fans have stated, why trade Konerko if were looking to contend, thats like going into combat and trading away one your machine guns for 3 knives

Knives that could turn into lasers in the future.

I agree, though, we mortgaged the future for a run this year (not what I would have done) so we should go with the best team we can put on the field this year.

Trading Konerko for prospects doesn't make much sense either. Due to his age, contract status, and lack of versatility, he won't fetch a package anywhere near what we traded for Swisher. We also have no replacement for Paulie at first besides Swisher. And Swisher is minor upgrade (if that) over Konerko at first. We would have traded 3 of our 5 best prospects for .030 point of OBP at first and some lesser prospects? It makes no sense.

Sockinchisox
01-05-2008, 03:38 AM
http://www.dailybreeze.com/sports/ci_7886756

Edit: can someone change the headline to Konerko close to being dealt for Kendrick and Santana? (with the question mark) and if you wanna put this in the other Konerko thread thats fine.

btrain929
01-05-2008, 03:47 AM
Knives that could turn into lasers in the future.

I agree, though, we mortgaged the future for a run this year (not what I would have done) so we should go with the best team we can put on the field this year.

Trading Konerko for prospects doesn't make much sense either. Due to his age, contract status, and lack of versatility, he won't fetch a package anywhere near what we traded for Swisher. We also have no replacement for Paulie at first besides Swisher. And Swisher is minor upgrade (if that) over Konerko at first. We would have traded 3 of our 5 best prospects for .030 point of OBP at first and some lesser prospects? It makes no sense.

I haven't read anybody's post that said trade Konerko for prospects. IF we are trading him, it will be for 2-3 pieces that can help us on the major league roster (figgins/willits, shields/speier?, weaver, maybe santana).

Plus, in addition to the .030 OBP points, you're also replacing him with a younger player, and saving money from getting Konerko's money off the books.

soxfan123
01-05-2008, 03:49 AM
That's not enough, Figgins has to be in that deal

Sockinchisox
01-05-2008, 03:53 AM
That's not enough, Figgins has to be in that deal

Konerko for Kendrick straight up is a steal for us.

But if it went down we'd still have a hole in CF and we'd have 3 shortstops and 3 2B.

soxfan123
01-05-2008, 03:54 AM
Konerko for Kendrick straight up is a steal for us.

But if it went down we'd still have a hole in CF and we'd have 3 shortstops and 3 2B.

I guess I underestimated Kendrick..but I don't see Santana getting us over any kind of hump into contention. If Figgins is in this deal, putting Swisher at first, I will be thrilled.

oeo
01-05-2008, 04:26 AM
The offense would have one hell of a bright future with Kendrick, Quentin, Ramirez, Swisher, and Fields.

I'm not so hot on Santana, though.

Konerko for Kendrick straight up is a steal for us.

A steal? You have to be ****ting me...

Kendrick is a good, young player, but that's not a steal. Konerko is a 40 HR, 100 RBI guy, who comes at a very reasonable price.

oeo
01-05-2008, 04:37 AM
Last I heard, the Angels were pretty confident Casey Kotchman could put up Konerko-like numbers at a fraction of the cost. I can't imagine them giving up much if the Sox were offering him, so I gotta think they can get more from him from another team that actually has a need at first base.

From who? :?:

I'd like to see Kotchman hit 40 homeruns. Actually, make that 30...scratch that, 20. No power from a 1B is just wonderful, I guess.

ilsox7
01-05-2008, 04:39 AM
Kendrick would basically allow us to have an excellent infield set for years to come. With Fields, Cabrera, Kendrick, and Swisher, we'd be looking at a bright 2008 and more.

I would assume, if this deal happened, that they would use the loads of money they would be saving to re-sign Cabrera.

I am not a big fan of Santana, but there is some upside there. His 2007 was awful, so KW would certainly be buying low. Assuming 2007 was mostly an aberration, you're getting a guy who should be able to fill the #4 spot in the rotation (and possibly #3, but no way you can count on that). He's also young and inexpensive.

This means that you can fairly confidently count on your #1, 2, and 4 spots in the rotation. Further, I feel good that either Danks or Floyd will emerge as an average to above-average #5. Therefore, the biggest rotation question mark going into the season is whether Contreras can step-up to being a #3.

Just some food for thought.

oeo
01-05-2008, 04:39 AM
With the swisher trade I doubt anymore position players besides crede/uribe are dealt, but I do see konerko getting traded next offseason :x

He gains full veto rights in May. If it's going to happen, it's going to happen in the next month.

oeo
01-05-2008, 04:42 AM
Kendrick would basically allow us to have an excellent infield set for years to come. With Fields, Cabrera, Kendrick, and Swisher, we'd be looking at a bright 2008 and more.

I would assume, if this deal happened, that they would use the loads of money they would be saving to re-sign Cabrera.

I am not a big fan of Santana, but there is some upside there. His 2007 was awful, so KW would certainly be buying low. Assuming 2007 was mostly an aberration, you're getting a guy who should be able to fill the #4 spot in the rotation (and possibly #3, but no way you can count on that). He's also young and inexpensive.

This means that you can fairly confidently count on your #1, 2, and 4 spots in the rotation. Further, I feel good that either Danks or Floyd will emerge as an average to above-average #5. Therefore, the biggest rotation question mark going into the season is whether Contreras can step-up to being a #3.

Just some food for thought.

I think Santana is another headcase. For whatever reason, Kenny loves those guys.

ilsox7
01-05-2008, 04:45 AM
I think Santana is another headcase. For whatever reason, Kenny loves those guys.

Just curious, but what makes you say that?

I see a guy who had very nice seasons in 2005 and 2006, especially given his age. His 2007 was atrocious and IIRC, he was even worse on the road. But I still think it's very reasonable to count on him as a #4 in the rotation.

Optipessimism
01-05-2008, 04:51 AM
The offense would have one hell of a bright future with Kendrick, Quentin, Ramirez, Swisher, and Fields.

I'm not so hot on Santana, though.



A steal? You have to be ****ting me...

Kendrick is a good, young player, but that's not a steal. Konerko is a 40 HR, 100 RBI guy, who comes at a very reasonable price.

This would be a steal IMO.

Kendrick's stats (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/K/Howie-Kendrick.shtml)

In 1529 Minor League AB's he's posted an OPS of .969. In 605 MLB AB's he has put up a .306/.332/.435 line, and he's only 23. He has good speed, projects to hit for average and for power, makes a ton of contact, and while he doesn't walk much at all, he hardly strikes out either.

Santana has major mental issues going on but if he can get back to where he was in '06, he has future top of the rotation potential.

My immediate reaction is whoever wrote this article is totally full of ****, unless of course we're picking up Gary Matthews Jr. Even still, I have no idea why they'd ever trade Kendrick without getting one of the best players in baseball in return.

Kendrick at 2B, Fields at 3B, Quentin in LF/RF, Swisher at 1B..... wow, that would be ****ing amazing and fun as hell to watch. I love Paulie but I'll drive him to the airport personally if we can get Kendrick. I still think this is a bunch of bull**** though.

oeo
01-05-2008, 04:53 AM
Just curious, but what makes you say that?

I see a guy who had very nice seasons in 2005 and 2006, especially given his age. His 2007 was atrocious and IIRC, he was even worse on the road. But I still think it's very reasonable to count on him as a #4 in the rotation.

I don't know, he improved on his 2005, and then went to the ****ter. No injury problems, only 25 years old. Something is wrong there, I'd say it's mental.

Ozzie and Co. have been good with instilling confidence in guys that don't have a lot of it, though (Garland, Contreras, Vazquez, jury is still out on Floyd, but he's improved). So maybe they can turn this guy's career around, too. :dunno:

Still thinking we should get someone else if Santana is the pitcher coming over.

Optipessimism
01-05-2008, 04:57 AM
I don't know, he improved on his 2005, and then went to the ****ter. No injury problems, only 25 years old. Something is wrong there, I'd say it's mental.

Ozzie and Co. have been good with instilling confidence in guys that don't have a lot of it, though (Garland, Contreras, jury is still out on Floyd, but he's improved). So maybe they can turn this guy's career around, too. :dunno:

Still thinking we should get someone else if Santana is the pitcher coming over.
Look at his home/road splits. It can't be anything BUT mental.

I'm not a big fan of Floyd or the Contreras that pitched last year, and Andy Sisco still has major issues, but still, we have had some success with these kinds of players in the past. Contreras in '05-'06, Floyd's end of season last year, and Bobby Jenks were all "headcases" who have worked out before. Santana is a good risk if we can get him. He certainly has worlds of ability more than Floyd has.

ilsox7
01-05-2008, 04:59 AM
I don't know, he improved on his 2005, and then went to the ****ter. No injury problems, only 25 years old. Something is wrong there, I'd say it's mental.

Ozzie and Co. have been good with instilling confidence in guys that don't have a lot of it, though (Garland, Contreras, Vazquez, jury is still out on Floyd, but he's improved). So maybe they can turn this guy's career around, too. :dunno:

Still thinking we should get someone else if Santana is the pitcher coming over.

Gotchya. I still think getting Kendrick is a pipedream, but I can see why it would be Santana. It truly is a buy low situation. And if GMJ is a requirement to getting the deal done, it may be worth it. We certainly would have the money with PK gone and no big free agent signing this winter.

I'd be absolutely shocked if this deal happened, but hey, it's 4 AM, so why not speculate a bit.

oeo
01-05-2008, 05:00 AM
Look at his home/road splits. It can't be anything BUT mental.

I'm not a big fan of Floyd or the Contreras that pitched last year, and Andy Sisco still has major issues, but still, we have had some success with these kinds of players in the past. Contreras in '05-'06, Floyd's end of season last year, and Bobby Jenks were all "headcases" who have worked out before. Santana is a good risk if we can get him. He certainly has worlds of ability more than Floyd has.

Andy Sisco can't control his 7 foot frame...that's his problem.

BTW, I wonder if Kenny could squeeze Crede in to snatch Figgins.

Optipessimism
01-05-2008, 05:08 AM
Andy Sisco can't control his 7 foot frame...that's his problem.

BTW, I wonder if Kenny could squeeze Crede in to snatch Figgins.

True on Andy, but I think the "headcase" tag was the main explanation for that when we got him. He didn't have much trouble keeping himself under control when he broke into the bigs with the Royals, but he took a nosedive in his sophomore year. I remember reading stuff about him after we picked him up where he was supposedly eating hotdogs in the middle of the game when he should have been on the bench, or something along those lines.

If the Sox could pick up Kendrick, Santana, AND Figgins for Konerko, Crede, and taking on GMJ's contract, that would be a monumental steal for us IMO. Although, I don't know where we'd play Figgins if we got GMJ and Kendrick with Fields at 3B, and I doubt there is any way we could even think about getting Kendrick unless we take that bad contract.

Lillian
01-05-2008, 07:36 AM
I have been anticipating a deal with the Angels for Konerko, but this would be even better than the kind of trade about which I was speculating.
Kendrick is a better deal for us than Figgins. He is younger, and would be with us much longer. Figgins is 30 and in the last year of his contract, I believe.

Such a trade would really be another very big step to rebuilding this team, while remaining competitive. Those of you who have spoken about the great nucleus of good young players make a very valid point.

This also breaks up the slow middle of the order, while still giving the offense plenty of weapons, with more speed and balance.

Santana is an interesting situation. He was very good at a young age for two years. Were there any injury issues that might explain his drop off last year? Was it a mental thing? Or was it mechanics? The answer to that question is the key to that aspect of the deal. The Sox organization probably has probably examined that issue in great depth, if they are seeking him. The other possibility is that the Angels are dangling him as trade bait, because they know he has serious problems.

I think the Angels would also try to unload that contract of Matthews, but at this point, wouldn´t we be better off to let Owens play center, and give us the added speed? If he can´t get on base at a satisfactory rate to lead off, maybe he could bat 9th.

Frater Perdurabo
01-05-2008, 07:44 AM
As many of my fellow Sox Fans have stated, why trade Konerko if were looking to contend, thats like going into combat and trading away one your machine guns for 3 knives

Paulie's more of a cannon than a machine gun. Maybe a WWI-era machine gun. He's not easy to move around, and sometimes it takes a lot of lube and TLC, but once he's in his place, he's punishing the opposition.

Frater Perdurabo
01-05-2008, 07:45 AM
I haven't read anybody's post that said trade Konerko for prospects. IF we are trading him, it will be for 2-3 pieces that can help us on the major league roster (figgins/willits, shields/speier?, weaver, maybe santana).

Plus, in addition to the .030 OBP points, you're also replacing him with a younger player, and saving money from getting Konerko's money off the books.

What if it was for prospects, and then KW turned around and shipped those prospects to Baltimore for Bedard? Or to Pittsburgh for Ian Snell?

Tragg
01-05-2008, 08:55 AM
The Sox turned around Contreras for a year. We get more out of Thornton than Seattle did. Vazquez - sort of a turn around (he improved anyway).
But we didn't do anything with Aardsma and Sisco. We probably got less out of Riske than anyone has. Overall, a good pitching program.

Anyway, Santanta is a flawed pitcher - flawed pitchers should be purchased at a discount price. If we can rejuvinate him, that's our edge.

That Swisher can play multiple positions - that's minor. One position with excellence would be fine - like center field, a position we desperately need.

I'd take Kendrick over Figgins. But straight up for Konerko? That's as weird as Santana straight up. Konerko is a productive middle of the order hitter at a below market price. 3 top prospects including the top 2 pitching prospects for a non-elite hitter like Swisher, but 1 prospect for Konerko? come on.

sox1970
01-05-2008, 09:20 AM
This exact rumor has been talked about for weeks by Bruce Levine. If anything, Padilla talked to Levine. I'll be shocked if Kendrick is part of this. I don't see it happening.

The Immigrant
01-05-2008, 09:31 AM
I'll be shocked if Kendrick is part of this. I don't see it happening.

Even without Kendrick, this deal could be very interesting if it includes Willits, Santana and one of their young catchers.

GMJ has a full no-trade clause through 2009. Figgins will become a free agent after 2009, I believe. I won't no part of either one.

russ99
01-05-2008, 10:00 AM
I'm not keen on this deal. Paulie's one of the best 1B in the AL. Do the Angels have a better pitcher than Santana they'd be willing to deal? I'm not sold on Santana becoming a solid 2/3 at all, and actually I have a higher opinion of Danks' potential.

Wilits/Kendrick, Santana and a prospect isn't enough IMO.

Also, I understand Paulie's 10/5 rights are kicking in this year, but wouldn't it be better to keep Konerko for 2008 and then deal him for prospects a year or two down the road when the Sox might need to do a more thorough rebuilding with Thome retiring and Dye likely leaving or moving into the DH role?

Also, I'm convinced Crede will bring a much better return this spring when he shows his back is healthy and he can play/hit. To trade him now would be selling very very low.

Frater Perdurabo
01-05-2008, 10:22 AM
If Kendrick comes to the Sox, does he become the leadoff hitter? I really like the .326 average, but he hardly ever walks (.347 OBP). Then again, Ozzie never walked, either.

What about PK for Kendrick, Willits and Santana?

Then a possible lineup is:

Willits CF
Cabrera SS
Kendrick 2B (.322 average with lots of doubles power)
Thome/Fields DH (plenty of RISP RBI opportunities)
Dye/Fields LF
Swisher 1B
Crede/Fields 3B
AJ C
Quentin RF

Fields is the super-sub, getting five starts per week as:
1. DH v. LHP (could be twice a week in the AL Central);
2. 3B twice weekly to rest Crede (keeps Crede's glove on field 4x/week)
3. LF once weekly to rest Dye

With a rotation of Buehrle, Vazquez, Contreras, Santana and Floyd/Danks

getonbckthr
01-05-2008, 10:46 AM
So it appears to be Paul Konerko for Howie Kendrick and Ervin Santana. Would be able to add to the deal Crede for Figgins and Bootcheck? My thinking is with Figgins ability to play many positions and leadoff he could be either our LF or CF. Left fielder if there is a question on Quentin's health status where then the best of Anderson/Owens/Ramirez takes CF, CF if Quentin is ready. Also acquiring Santana would be really nice. Gives us flexibility with our rotation. We could jump Contreras for anything plus salary relief, we could try something crazy like Danks/Floyd/Richar/ Owens for Bedard, or how about Danks/Floyd/Anderson/Owens/Richar for Crawford and Kazmir?

SoxxoS
01-05-2008, 10:51 AM
I would normally dismiss this as bull****, but this deal reeks of KW, doesn't it?

Can't you picture the press conference?

:KW

"We have liked Santana since I got him confused with Johan."

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 11:03 AM
Konerko is a superstar! We shouldn't trade him for anything but a superstar!

He plays 1B which is a premium defensive position! He isn't a high OBP guy but who cares about that? He's hit 40 HR a couple of times--and he's a FIRST BASEMAN for Christ's sake!

Also, he's an awesome team leader. He would never say silly, excessively praiseful things about horrible ex-teammates at the expense of current teammates, and he would never call current teammates out publicly for things he has no business calling them out publicly for!

Also he hit 40 HR's a couple of times! As a FIRST BASEMAN! And so what if he's the slowest man in the universe! HE plays PREMIUM defense at a position where PREMIUM defense IS relevant! Also he hit 40 HR's a couple times and since he's NEVER HAD A BAD SEASON that means he's a "40 HR/100 RBI guy"

IF we can't get A-Rod or Pujols for Konerko, what's the point of trading him? Do you know how hard it is to find a slow, mediocre OBP/high power Firstbaseman? They're once in a lifetime commodities.

Not to mention if we trade Konerko for a speedster, we give up power--something we have none of--for speed--something we have plenty of!

CHIsoxNation
01-05-2008, 11:14 AM
Konerko is a superstar! We shouldn't trade him for anything but a superstar!

He plays 1B which is a premium defensive position! He isn't a high OBP guy but who cares about that? He's hit 40 HR a couple of times--and he's a FIRST BASEMAN for Christ's sake!

Also, he's an awesome team leader. He would never say silly, excessively praiseful things about horrible ex-teammates at the expense of current teammates, and he would never call current teammates out publicly for things he has no business calling them out publicly for!

Also he hit 40 HR's a couple of times! As a FIRST BASEMAN! And so what if he's the slowest man in the universe! HE plays PREMIUM defense at a position where PREMIUM defense IS relevant! Also he hit 40 HR's a couple times and since he's NEVER HAD A BAD SEASON that means he's a "40 HR/100 RBI guy"

IF we can't get A-Rod or Pujols for Konerko, what's the point of trading him? Do you know how hard it is to find a slow, mediocre OBP/high power Firstbaseman? They're once in a lifetime commodities.

Not to mention if we trade Konerko for a speedster, we give up power--something we have none of--for speed--something we have plenty of!

This was all supposed to be in teal, right?

SoxxoS
01-05-2008, 11:18 AM
This was all supposed to be in teal, right?

I hope so - Way too many exclamation points for a post not written by bafiarocks

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 11:18 AM
This was all supposed to be in teal, right?

No. If it was "supposed" to be in teal I would have put it in teal

getonbckthr
01-05-2008, 11:22 AM
Konerko is a superstar! We shouldn't trade him for anything but a superstar!

He plays 1B which is a premium defensive position! He isn't a high OBP guy but who cares about that? He's hit 40 HR a couple of times--and he's a FIRST BASEMAN for Christ's sake!

Also, he's an awesome team leader. He would never say silly, excessively praiseful things about horrible ex-teammates at the expense of current teammates, and he would never call current teammates out publicly for things he has no business calling them out publicly for!

Also he hit 40 HR's a couple of times! As a FIRST BASEMAN! And so what if he's the slowest man in the universe! HE plays PREMIUM defense at a position where PREMIUM defense IS relevant! Also he hit 40 HR's a couple times and since he's NEVER HAD A BAD SEASON that means he's a "40 HR/100 RBI guy"

IF we can't get A-Rod or Pujols for Konerko, what's the point of trading him? Do you know how hard it is to find a slow, mediocre OBP/high power Firstbaseman? They're once in a lifetime commodities.

Not to mention if we trade Konerko for a speedster, we give up power--something we have none of--for speed--something we have plenty of!

This was all supposed to be in teal, right?

I hope so - Way too many exclamation points for a post not written by bafiarocks
Ummmm clearly my man FQ knows what he is talking about. FQ is a living, breathing teal machine.

DumpJerry
01-05-2008, 11:35 AM
Konerko is a superstar! We shouldn't trade him for anything but a superstar!

He plays 1B which is a premium defensive position! He isn't a high OBP guy but who cares about that? He's hit 40 HR a couple of times--and he's a FIRST BASEMAN for Christ's sake!

Also, he's an awesome team leader. He would never say silly, excessively praiseful things about horrible ex-teammates at the expense of current teammates, and he would never call current teammates out publicly for things he has no business calling them out publicly for!

Also he hit 40 HR's a couple of times! As a FIRST BASEMAN! And so what if he's the slowest man in the universe! HE plays PREMIUM defense at a position where PREMIUM defense IS relevant! Also he hit 40 HR's a couple times and since he's NEVER HAD A BAD SEASON that means he's a "40 HR/100 RBI guy"

IF we can't get A-Rod or Pujols for Konerko, what's the point of trading him? Do you know how hard it is to find a slow, mediocre OBP/high power Firstbaseman? They're once in a lifetime commodities.

Not to mention if we trade Konerko for a speedster, we give up power--something we have none of--for speed--something we have plenty of!

This was all supposed to be in teal, right?
I don't think so. People forget how good Paulie is with the glove. He's had to dig out a ton of Uribe's crazy throws and Andy Gonzalez' "escape velocity International Space Station here we come!" bullets from Third.

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 11:39 AM
I don't think so. People forget how good Paulie is with the glove. He's had to dig out a ton of Uribe's crazy throws and Andy Gonzalez' "escape velocity International Space Station here we come!" bullets from Third.

Yeah, very few MLB 1Bmen can dig out bad throws.

It's such an important skill to have that so few people possess

btrain929
01-05-2008, 11:43 AM
Konerko is a superstar! We shouldn't trade him for anything but a superstar!

He plays 1B which is a premium defensive position! He isn't a high OBP guy but who cares about that? He's hit 40 HR a couple of times--and he's a FIRST BASEMAN for Christ's sake!

Also, he's an awesome team leader. He would never say silly, excessively praiseful things about horrible ex-teammates at the expense of current teammates, and he would never call current teammates out publicly for things he has no business calling them out publicly for!

Also he hit 40 HR's a couple of times! As a FIRST BASEMAN! And so what if he's the slowest man in the universe! HE plays PREMIUM defense at a position where PREMIUM defense IS relevant! Also he hit 40 HR's a couple times and since he's NEVER HAD A BAD SEASON that means he's a "40 HR/100 RBI guy"

IF we can't get A-Rod or Pujols for Konerko, what's the point of trading him? Do you know how hard it is to find a slow, mediocre OBP/high power Firstbaseman? They're once in a lifetime commodities.

Not to mention if we trade Konerko for a speedster, we give up power--something we have none of--for speed--something we have plenty of!

2008 White Sox: No power. All speed............got it. :rolleyes:

Tragg
01-05-2008, 11:43 AM
Also he hit 40 HR's a couple of times! As a FIRST BASEMAN! And so what if he's the slowest man in the universe! HE plays PREMIUM defense at a position where PREMIUM defense IS relevant! Also he hit 40 HR's a couple times and since he's NEVER HAD A BAD SEASON that means he's a "40 HR/100 RBI guy"

IF we can't get A-Rod or Pujols for Konerko, what's the point of trading him? Do you know how hard it is to find a slow, mediocre OBP/high power Firstbaseman? They're once in a lifetime commodities.

Not to mention if we trade Konerko for a speedster, we give up power--something we have none of--for speed--something we have plenty of!
And speed and power are certainly equivalent. And Richar, Quentin, Cabrera, Swisher can all get around the bases. Our power hitter if Konerko leave is Thome and to some extent Swisher and Dye. And our 1B would be - well Swisher - we just traded our 2 top prospects for a 1B who can hit 25 home runs. Wow! Add Manny and Ortiz and maybe you can win with a 1B with no power.
Konerko has a bad OBP? He's had one season below .350. On this team, that's exceptional.
Swisher's numbers are similar to Konerkos, except that Konerko's done it longer, has had higher heights. He's slower, more expensive and older. But if we moved Konerko, we just traded our two top prospects for, essentially, Paul Konerko, the man who has no value.

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 11:48 AM
And speed and power are certainly equivalent. And Richar, Quentin, Cabrera, Swisher can all get around the bases. Our power hitter if Konerko leave is Thome and to some extent Swisher and Dye.

:rolling:


Konerko has a bad OBP? He's had one season below .350. On this team, that's exceptional. Where did I say he had a bad OBP. I said he had a low OBP and a mediocre OBP. .350 fits both those categories. Especially when we're talking about a "Superstar"

And what shoudl we give a **** if our superstar badass mammajamma power hitter "stud" has a "good OBP for THIS TEAM". Shouldn't he measure himself against the league? Or are the White Sox the special olympics?


Swisher's numbers are similar to Konerkos, except that Konerko's done it longer, has had higher heights. He's slower, more expensive and older. But if we moved Konerko, we just traded our two top prospects for, essentially, Paul Konerko, the man who has no value.Konerko's also had ****tier seasons than Swisher, and why are we comparing Swisher to Konerko anyway? Has anyone said Swisher is "untouchable"? Would anyone on this site ever say "You don't trade Swisher unless you're getting something GREAT!" No. Konerko is the supposed superstar, so I would think some 27 year old kid like Swisher would have much WORSE numbers than this supposed "Superstar". Not "similar".

Oh and in terms of your argument that "we traded 3 prospects for Konerko, that's clearly not the case. The reason we would have traded them was for a player to REPLACE Konerko, who we needed to move to get the players from, say, the Angels--a team that wants an MLB ready player (like Konerko), not prospects.


Funny how nobody on the world series team had any value.Let's make a ridiculously stupid statement like this and see if it makes our argument stronger!!!! Fun!!!!!

At any rate, anyone who says any one of our position players is the main reason we won the WS in 2005 really has a distorted sense of what won us the WS in 2005

The Thomenator
01-05-2008, 11:54 AM
Konerko is a superstar! We shouldn't trade him for anything but a superstar!

He plays 1B which is a premium defensive position! He isn't a high OBP guy but who cares about that? He's hit 40 HR a couple of times--and he's a FIRST BASEMAN for Christ's sake!

Also, he's an awesome team leader. He would never say silly, excessively praiseful things about horrible ex-teammates at the expense of current teammates, and he would never call current teammates out publicly for things he has no business calling them out publicly for!

Also he hit 40 HR's a couple of times! As a FIRST BASEMAN! And so what if he's the slowest man in the universe! HE plays PREMIUM defense at a position where PREMIUM defense IS relevant! Also he hit 40 HR's a couple times and since he's NEVER HAD A BAD SEASON that means he's a "40 HR/100 RBI guy"

IF we can't get A-Rod or Pujols for Konerko, what's the point of trading him? Do you know how hard it is to find a slow, mediocre OBP/high power Firstbaseman? They're once in a lifetime commodities.

Not to mention if we trade Konerko for a speedster, we give up power--something we have none of--for speed--something we have plenty of!

I am as big of a Paul Konerko fan around, but this trade would work out perfect and I will tell you why:

1. It adds flexibility to the lineup. (Howie Kendrick could bat a lot of places in an ideal lineup; 2,3,6,7,8,9) Nick Swisher and Howie Kendrick>Paul Konerko and Danny Richar.

2. He's young (Turns 25 in July, little over a year of service time) and cheap

3. Rumors of other names can add to the club's glaring weaknesses: Lead-off (Figgins), Young Starting Pitching (Santana), and Bullpen......Icing on the cake.

I'd be suprised the Angels would even consider trading this guy. He's got a poor man's Joe Morgan type of ceiling. Another young masher is in the wings with Josh Feilds. There always will be. I have a Paul Konerko jersey in my closet with a World Series patch on the sleeve. I'll never forgot 2005. I absolutely love what he has and potentially will contribute to this ball club. but Kenny's gotta stay ahead of the curve on this one.

I remember in a recent interview with KW, he mentioned a "new core" joining the current core. I would easily welcome Howie Kendrick to the likes of Quentin, Fields, and Swisher. That group of guys no older than 27 has a load of talent.

Regardless of all of us getting wrapped up in rumors and heresay, when its all said and done what is the least we are left with...Paul Konerko playing for the Sox this year.

I've been a skeptic all offseason, but I see the light at the end of the tunnel. If KW continues to work on adding pieces to his "new core," cheers to the 2008 White Sox and beyond.:gulp:

rmusacch
01-05-2008, 12:03 PM
mlbtraderumors source? WSI

The source is something called the Daily Breeze. At least that it what rotoworld's source is.

http://www.dailybreeze.com/sports/ci_7887205

Jjav829
01-05-2008, 12:12 PM
I don't really but into this rumor. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the Angels.

They could still use some more power in the middle of their lineup, but the Hunter signing at least gives them another 30 HR threat.

Their lineup as it currently stands isn't too bad. They already have a solid 1B in Kotchman. Yeah, he's not a big power threat, but he does everything else as well or better than Konerko. Obviously the HR difference is pretty big, especially for a team lacking in power, but it's not unreasonable to think Kotchman can hit 20 HR a year. So why replace him?

They could DH Konerko, but that bumps someone out of the lineup. Anderson would have to play left and Matthews would be a bench player, and he makes far too much for a bench player. And if Kendrick was dealt, and they were reluctant to trade him for Miguel freaking Cabrera at first, so I have my doubts as to whether they would trade him for Konerko, that opens up a hole at 2B.

The deal doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for the Angels. Obviously they could use Konerko's power in the middle of their lineup; but badly enough to trade away young players like Kendrick or Kotchman? I doubt it.

thedudeabides
01-05-2008, 12:13 PM
I noticed the article was written by Doug Padilla.


The same guy from the Sun-Times?

Frater Perdurabo
01-05-2008, 12:18 PM
The deal doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for the Angels. Obviously they could use Konerko's power in the middle of their lineup; but badly enough to trade away young players like Kendrick or Kotchman? I doubt it.

From a purely objective point of view I do see your points and agree with you to an extent.

But if you were the Angels and if you believed that making such a deal to get Paulie was the difference between simply winning the AL West as is, and being the team to beat with PK, wouldn't you make the deal?

It doesn't have to make sense from an objective perspective; a deal only has to make sense from the perspective of both team's general managers.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 12:21 PM
The source is something called the Daily Breeze. At least that it what rotoworld's source is.

http://www.dailybreeze.com/sports/ci_7887205

The same guy from the Sun-Times?

I know, you'd think if any ST writer was gonna be published on a website called the Daily Breeze it would be the Windsock...

Lukin13
01-05-2008, 12:24 PM
I always thought it would be Garland, not MB that would get the big extension; but after Buehrle got paid I got the feeling that JR/KW were very concerned with the keeping the "New and Improved, Post World Series, White Sox Fanbase" happy.

I will be VERY impressed with JR/KW if Konerko is dealt, because regardless of who it is for, it will not be a popular trade. Especially if it is for Howie, because the majority of the "New and Improved, Post World Series, White Sox Fanbase" have never heard of him. The other team in Chicago would never dream of dealing such a fan favorite no matter how it might benefit the team on the field.

Another thing, how valuable is PK? It was obvious that the main draw to Swisher was his contract. I have read elsewhere that there is no way HK will be part of this deal because he wasn't available to be included for Miggy... Well, is it possible that a locked up Konerko at 12mil per for 6 (?) years, is more valuable than acquiring the right to pay Cabrera 20mil+ for 10 years????

thedudeabides
01-05-2008, 12:26 PM
I know, you'd think if any ST writer was gonna be published on a website called the Daily Breeze it would be the Windsock...

:D: Well played sir.

Jjav829
01-05-2008, 12:27 PM
From a purely objective point of view I do see your points and agree with you to an extent.

But if you were the Angels and if you believed that making such a deal to get Paulie was the difference between simply winning the AL West as is, and being the team to beat with PK, wouldn't you make the deal?

It doesn't have to make sense from an objective perspective; a deal only has to make sense from the perspective of both team's general managers.

Maybe, but if you're Tony Reagins, is it worth giving up a potential stud like Kendrick, or even a quality leadoff hitter like Figgins for an extra, say, 20 HRs out of your 1B? Or would you rather keep those young players, let them develop further and see if you can be the best team in the division for the next 10 years? Especially knowing that you have a bunch of young players who you can still trade at the trading deadline if you feel you need more thump in your lineup.

It's not that it doesn't make sense from an objective perspective, but it doesn't make sense to me looking at it as if I'm the Angels GM. Of course, it's possible Tony Reagins has a different opinion.

Jjav829
01-05-2008, 12:30 PM
Well, is it possible that a locked up Konerko at 12mil per for 6 (?) years, is more valuable than acquiring the right to pay Cabrera 20mil+ for 10 years????

It's 3 years and given the difference in age (Konerko will be 32 when the season starts and Cabrera will be 24) and pure talent, I think the answer is an emphatic "NO."

HITMEN OF 77
01-05-2008, 12:30 PM
Konerko is a superstar! We shouldn't trade him for anything but a superstar!

He plays 1B which is a premium defensive position! He isn't a high OBP guy but who cares about that? He's hit 40 HR a couple of times--and he's a FIRST BASEMAN for Christ's sake!

Also, he's an awesome team leader. He would never say silly, excessively praiseful things about horrible ex-teammates at the expense of current teammates, and he would never call current teammates out publicly for things he has no business calling them out publicly for!

Also he hit 40 HR's a couple of times! As a FIRST BASEMAN! And so what if he's the slowest man in the universe! HE plays PREMIUM defense at a position where PREMIUM defense IS relevant! Also he hit 40 HR's a couple times and since he's NEVER HAD A BAD SEASON that means he's a "40 HR/100 RBI guy"

IF we can't get A-Rod or Pujols for Konerko, what's the point of trading him? Do you know how hard it is to find a slow, mediocre OBP/high power Firstbaseman? They're once in a lifetime commodities.

Not to mention if we trade Konerko for a speedster, we give up power--something we have none of--for speed--something we have plenty of!

:thumbsup:

KyWhiSoxFan
01-05-2008, 12:33 PM
Konerko is a superstar! We shouldn't trade him for anything but a superstar!

He plays 1B which is a premium defensive position! He isn't a high OBP guy but who cares about that? He's hit 40 HR a couple of times--and he's a FIRST BASEMAN for Christ's sake!

Also, he's an awesome team leader. He would never say silly, excessively praiseful things about horrible ex-teammates at the expense of current teammates, and he would never call current teammates out publicly for things he has no business calling them out publicly for!

Also he hit 40 HR's a couple of times! As a FIRST BASEMAN! And so what if he's the slowest man in the universe! HE plays PREMIUM defense at a position where PREMIUM defense IS relevant! Also he hit 40 HR's a couple times and since he's NEVER HAD A BAD SEASON that means he's a "40 HR/100 RBI guy"

IF we can't get A-Rod or Pujols for Konerko, what's the point of trading him? Do you know how hard it is to find a slow, mediocre OBP/high power Firstbaseman? They're once in a lifetime commodities.

Not to mention if we trade Konerko for a speedster, we give up power--something we have none of--for speed--something we have plenty of!

While you make a number of compelling arguments for not trading Konerko, you seemed to have missed the most important one: Konerko is the heart and soul of the Sox. Where would the Sox have been last year without his fire and enthusiasm?

And as captain of the team, I can't remember how many times I saw him motivate his teammates with chest bumps and high fives in the dugout after good plays.

Where indeed would the Sox have been last year without his leadership, making sure that everyone on the team came ready to play every single day, every inning, every play?

Lukin13
01-05-2008, 12:34 PM
It's 3 years and given the difference in age (Konerko will be 32 when the season starts and Cabrera will be 24) and pure talent, I think the answer is an emphatic "NO."

Wow, I thought it was more than that. There is no way Kendrick is included in this deal then.

thedudeabides
01-05-2008, 12:39 PM
If Kendrick isn't available wouldn't it make more sense for the Sox to focus this trade on pitching. Would Weaver be available in a Konerko deal? The Angels have a lot of pitching depth.

As mentioned by a previous poster, most of KW deals come as a surprise. Maybe, there are talks, but all the players involved are just speculation. I would have to think if another trade is made, there has to be an upgrade in pitching and I'm not sure Santana is a big upgrade.

Tragg
01-05-2008, 12:39 PM
Wouldn't Figgins be a rent?

When I read "bullpen help" I get the shakes: i.e. more ceiling middle relievers, of which we are already stocked to the brim.

Konerko isn't nearly as valuable as Cabrera. Of course, neither is Swisher.

Unregistered
01-05-2008, 12:39 PM
While you make a number of compelling arguments for not trading Konerko, you seemed to have missed the most important one: Konerko is the heart and soul of the Sox. Where would the Sox have been last year without his fire and enthusiasm?

And as captain of the team, I can't remember how many times I saw him motivate his teammates with chest bumps and high fives in the dugout after good plays.

Where indeed would the Sox have been last year without his leadership, making sure that everyone on the team came ready to play every single day, every inning, every play?

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

The Sox finished 18 games under .500 and 3 games in front of the last place Royals. They played some of the most uninspired baseball ever seen out of $100 million team and you're commending Konerko on his leadership and enthusiasm?

If this was a joke post (and I'm really hoping it is), you've got my nomination for POTW.

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 12:42 PM
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

The Sox finished 18 games under .500 and 3 games in front of the last place Royals. They played some of the most uninspired baseball ever seen out of $100 million team and you're commending Konerko on his leadership and enthusiasm?

If this was a joke post (and I'm really hoping it is), you've got my nomination for POTW.

Weren't you president of the anti-teal commission once?

FOR SHAME

Unregistered
01-05-2008, 12:44 PM
Hey, I acknowledged that it may be a joke. :D:

Also, I'm not familiar with KYWhiteSox, nor was that post crazy enough to obviously be sarcasm, sadly.

btrain929
01-05-2008, 12:44 PM
While you make a number of compelling arguments for not trading Konerko, you seemed to have missed the most important one: Konerko is the heart and soul of the Sox. Where would the Sox have been last year without his fire and enthusiasm?

And as captain of the team, I can't remember how many times I saw him motivate his teammates with chest bumps and high fives in the dugout after good plays.

Where indeed would the Sox have been last year without his leadership, making sure that everyone on the team came ready to play every single day, every inning, every play?

Fixed it....

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 12:47 PM
Hey, I acknowledged that it may be a joke. :D:

Also, I'm not familiar with KYWhiteSox, nor was that post crazy enough to obviously be sarcasm, sadly.


Just form the "pr0-teal commission" and be over with it

KyWhiSoxFan
01-05-2008, 12:48 PM
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

The Sox finished 18 games under .500 and 3 games in front of the last place Royals. They played some of the most uninspired baseball ever seen out of $100 million team and you're commending Konerko on his leadership and enthusiasm?

If this was a joke post (and I'm really hoping it is), you've got my nomination for POTW.

I don't know what POTW is (do I want to?), but sometimes satire is more effective than teal. While I like Konerko and think he's a great professional and conducts himself as well or better than any professional athlete in Chicago, he was a reluctant captain (remember, he did not want to be captain) and he acts like it. He just wants to show up and do his job, but unfortunately that attribute has not rubbed off on everyone else. And when he had a down year in 2007, just about everyone else on the team went down with him. No one was able to kick start the team out of its doldrums. Maybe Swisher has that attribute.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 12:49 PM
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

The Sox finished 18 games under .500 and 3 games in front of the last place Royals. They played some of the most uninspired baseball ever seen out of $100 million team and you're commending Konerko on his leadership and enthusiasm?

If this was a joke post (and I'm really hoping it is), you've got my nomination for POTW.

Blah blah blah...

Injuries, career bad seasons and a ton of rookie playing time had nothing to do with that record, right?

Wasn't he also the captain when the Sox won the WS and then followed it up with a 90 win season the next year?

Nice use of selective memory and cherry picked stats... :rolleyes:

Unregistered
01-05-2008, 12:50 PM
Yep, if it wasn't for Konerko's leadership and captain-y pep talks, the Sox never would have won the World Series in 2005.

Also, he gave the ball to Jerry after they won it all.

So there's that.

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 12:52 PM
Blah blah blah...

Injuries, career bad seasons and a ton of rookie playing time had nothing to do with that record, right?

Wasn't he also the captain when the Sox won the WS and then followed it up with a 90 win season the next year?

Nice use of selective memory and cherry picked stats... :rolleyes:

Just like using the "captain of the WS 05 team" is a cherry-picked non-stat.

Yes, he was an important part of the WS 05 team. So was Freddy Garcia, Carl Everett, and Scott Podsednik.

None of that makes any sort of difference to whether Konerko is untradeable.

He's an above average glove at a position where above average glove is largely irrelevant and he's an above average power hitter who's plagued by inconsistency.

That's really about it.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 12:57 PM
Yep, if it wasn't for Konerko's leadership and captain-y pep talks, the Sox never would have won the World Series in 2005.

Also, he gave the ball to Jerry after they won it all.

So there's that.

Well there's also the fact that for his stick he's reasonably priced, tends to be pretty consistent year to year stat wise, hits well in clutch situations and has good baseball smarts.

Trade Crede, keep PK, maybe sign some retread veteran starter to a cheap incentive laden deal, re-up Cabrera before the season starts and watch this team make at least a couple of runs at the playoffs or beyond in the next few years.

I don't necessarily need ARod in exchange to trade PK, but he's worth a fair chunk in return and honestly with him on the team there aren't that many position player holes to fill between now and the time his contract expires (if they can re-up Cabrera), so I wouldn't rush in to trade him unless the offer was too good to pass up. I wouldn't do it for prospects alone that's for sure...

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 01:01 PM
Well there's also the fact that for his stick he's reasonably priced, tends to be pretty consistent year to year stat wise, hits well in clutch situations
:?: Except for those months at a time when his bat goes to sleep.


and has good baseball smarts.

I've not noticed this to be the case, but there's really no way to quantify who's right or wrong. I would say his "You just don't deke out a shortstop thing!!!!!" after the Cubs game thing kind of undermines your point here though...


Trade Crede, keep PK, maybe sign some retread veteran starter to a cheap incentive laden deal, re-up Cabrera before the season starts and watch this team make at least a couple of runs at the playoffs or beyond in the next few years.

Trade Crede for a PTBNL? What does that have to do with this? You don't seriously think Crede has any sort of trade value to even make him a relevant introduction to this conversation.

I would agree with the second part of this section...but I think that trading PK is a fairly necessary step in competing in 09 and beyond. We need pitching, CF and speed. We do not need yet another slow-footed, mediocre OBP, inconsistent power hitter.


I don't necessarily need ARod in exchange to trade PK, but he's worth a fair chunk in return and honestly with him on the team there aren't that many position player holes to fill between now and the time his contract expires (if they can re-up Cabrera), so I wouldn't rush in to trade him unless the offer was too good to pass up. I wouldn't do it for prospects alone that's for sure...


Figgins and Shields is more than fair. Why do you think this deal hasn't already been made. Surely you don't think the logjam is on the Sox's end?

gogosox16
01-05-2008, 01:02 PM
Well there's also the fact that for his stick he's reasonably priced, tends to be pretty consistent year to year stat wise, hits well in clutch situations and has good baseball smarts.

Trade Crede, keep PK, maybe sign some retread veteran starter to a cheap incentive laden deal, re-up Cabrera before the season starts and watch this team make at least a couple of runs at the playoffs or beyond in the next few years.

I don't necessarily need ARod in exchange to trade PK, but he's worth a fair chunk in return and honestly with him on the team there aren't that many position player holes to fill between now and the time his contract expires (if they can re-up Cabrera), so I wouldn't rush in to trade him unless the offer was too good to pass up. I wouldn't do it for prospects alone that's for sure...
I agree how could you give up your top player for prospects when already your GM has pretty much said that its either win now or lose it all...He got rid of all the top prospects and now people expect to dump Konerko to replenish the farm system. I could only see a trade happening if the Sox got a young stud outfielder, young pitcher, and a top prospect

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 01:04 PM
I agree how could you give up your top player for prospects when already your GM has pretty much said that its either win now or lose it all...He got rid of all the top prospects and now people expect to dump Konerko to replenish the farm system. I could only see a trade happening if the Sox got a young stud outfielder, young pitcher, and a top prospect

Our top player?

:rolling:

:rolling:

:rolling:

There has never been a point in White Sox history when Konerko was the top player on the team

gogosox16
01-05-2008, 01:04 PM
:?: Except for those months at a time when his bat goes to sleep.



I've not noticed this to be the case, but there's really no way to quantify who's right or wrong. I would say his "You just don't deke out a shortstop thing!!!!!" after the Cubs game thing kind of undermines your point here though...



Trade Crede for a PTBNL? What does that have to do with this? You don't seriously think Crede has any sort of trade value to even make him a relevant introduction to this conversation.

I would agree with the second part of this section...but I think that trading PK is a fairly necessary step in competing in 09 and beyond. We need pitching, CF and speed. We do not need yet another slow-footed, mediocre OBP, inconsistent power hitter.




Figgins and Shields is more than fair. Why do you think this deal hasn't already been made. Surely you don't think the logjam is on the Sox's end?
The Angels probably have something set in what they want to trade to the Sox but they don't want to have Kotchman and Konerko and Morales. So I bet if they got Konerko they would end up trading most likely Kotchman.

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 01:05 PM
The Angels probably have something set in what they want to trade to the Sox but they don't want to have Kotchman and Konerko and Morales. So I bet if they got Konerko they would end up trading most likely Kotchman.

The fact that they signed Hunter when they already had committed big $ to Matthews in CF makes it hard for me to believe that if Konerko were the guy they wanted, that having Kotchman woudl be the holdup

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 01:08 PM
:?: Except for those months at a time when his bat goes to sleep.



I've not noticed this to be the case, but there's really no way to quantify who's right or wrong. I would say his "You just don't deke out a shortstop thing!!!!!" after the Cubs game thing kind of undermines your point here though...



Trade Crede for a PTBNL? What does that have to do with this? You don't seriously think Crede has any sort of trade value to even make him a relevant introduction to this conversation.

I would agree with the second part of this section...but I think that trading PK is a fairly necessary step in competing in 09 and beyond. We need pitching, CF and speed. We do not need yet another slow-footed, mediocre OBP, inconsistent power hitter.




Figgins and Shields is more than fair. Why do you think this deal hasn't already been made. Surely you don't think the logjam is on the Sox's end?

Well, we really don't know how much pitching and speed we need until we see how things play out now do we? I don't pretend to be psychic and don't know how things will go this season, but the Sox might already be set at SP and the bullpen could be just fine. You don't know that they won't be either.

I wouldn't trade Crede for a PTBNL or even a bunch of maybes. I want some return. If you can get a starter by packaging him with Floyd and another minor league prospect then I'd do it. If he could bring a couple of solid prospects and a reliever, I'd do that too.

I still say PK's 35/100/.880 OPS are a good value at what we are paying him.

KyWhiSoxFan
01-05-2008, 01:10 PM
I don't believe Konerko was a captain in 2005. KW decided to name him captain after Konerko signed the five-year contract at the end of 2005, when he was also being courted by the Angels. The Sox used the captain card as a way to honor him, though Konerko said he did not care for the title (but took it anyway, since it seemed forced on him).

I don't know if there were any official team captains on the 2005 team. (Anyone know?)

gogosox16
01-05-2008, 01:11 PM
I don't believe Konerko was a captain in 2005. KW decided to name him captain after Konerko signed the five-year contract at the end of 2005, when he was also being courted by the Angels. The Sox used the captain card as a way to honor him, though Konerko said he did not care for the title (but took it anyway, since it seemed forced on him).

I don't know if there were any official team captains on the 2005 team. (Anyone know?)
You are correct they had no official "Captain" on the team until 2006 when Konerko was named it.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 01:14 PM
Our top player?


There has never been a point in White Sox history when Konerko was the top player on the team

Yeah, but he's been the #2 bat often enough and those were on good offensive teams. Prior to last season (when he had no protection the first half at all) he put up 3 years with an average OPS of .912. That's worth something on any team.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 01:15 PM
I don't believe Konerko was a captain in 2005. KW decided to name him captain after Konerko signed the five-year contract at the end of 2005, when he was also being courted by the Angels. The Sox used the captain card as a way to honor him, though Konerko said he did not care for the title (but took it anyway, since it seemed forced on him).

I don't know if there were any official team captains on the 2005 team. (Anyone know?)

My bad, but in the end, the whole captain thing doesn't do much for me anyway, I'm more interested in how he performs and PK is a solid performer and has been for his entire career.

gogosox16
01-05-2008, 01:19 PM
My bad, but in the end, the whole captain thing doesn't do much for me anyway, I'm more interested in how he performs and PK is a solid performer and has been for his entire career.
except in 2003

Rockabilly
01-05-2008, 01:20 PM
I called a friend who works in LA Angels front office and he said that the deal might go down by the end of the month and it would be

Sox sending
Konerko, Crede and prospect rumor is Shelby

Angels would send the Sox Figgins, Kendrick, Santana, Speier and Wilson

DickAllen72
01-05-2008, 01:22 PM
Wasn't he also the captain when the Sox won the WS ....?

Actually, no. If I remember correctly he was named captain after he re-signed with the Sox in '06.

Besides Aaron, Carl, Mark and A.J. were the leaders of that '05 clubhouse.

The Thomenator
01-05-2008, 01:24 PM
The fact that they signed Hunter when they already had committed big $ to Matthews in CF makes it hard for me to believe that if Konerko were the guy they wanted, that having Kotchman woudl be the holdup

I can very easily see the Angels sitting on their hands until Kenny budges on taking Sarge Jr.'s bloated contract ala Mike Lowell getting tagged along with Josh Beckett. I am by no means saying GMJ will put up Mike Lowell numbers, but from the Angels perspective they have a good young first baseman that they would like to keep in Kotchman. Their logjam is at DH where Matthrews currently is at on their depth chart. We will get a Kendricks, Figgins, Sheilds, and/or Santana in a deal for Konerko if we are willing to choke down paying HGH boy $10 million for the next four years.

This is something I'd consider, if we could pawn him off on another team after a year, telling them the "value" they are getting with the way contracts are going through the roof this offseason. As dumb as $50M for 5 years was in 2007 for an average CF, $30M for 3 years for that same average CF could be appealing to a dumb team. All it takes is one to exist for the grand scheme of all of this to work out in the long run.

DickAllen72
01-05-2008, 01:25 PM
I called a friend who works in LA Angels front office and he said that the deal might go down by the end of the month and it would be

Sox sending
Konerko, Crede and prospect rumor is Shelby

Angels would send the Sox Figgins, Kendrick, Santana, Speier and Wilson
Wow. :o: I hope your friend is correct.

The Thomenator
01-05-2008, 01:25 PM
I called a friend who works in LA Angels front office and he said that the deal might go down by the end of the month and it would be

Sox sending
Konerko, Crede and prospect rumor is Shelby

Angels would send the Sox Figgins, Kendrick, Santana, Speier and Wilson

My head is about to explode.

Rockabilly
01-05-2008, 01:29 PM
He mention the Sox wanted Shields but the offer Speier instead...

The angels are very down on santana

btrain929
01-05-2008, 01:31 PM
I called a friend who works in LA Angels front office and he said that the deal might go down by the end of the month and it would be

Sox sending
Konerko, Crede and prospect rumor is Shelby

Angels would send the Sox Figgins, Kendrick, Santana, Speier and Wilson

That would be unbelievable, which leads me to believe it won't happen. I honestly don't see us receiving Kendrick in any deal. That would more than likely leave them with a middle infield of B.Wood and E.Aybar. That's a very young and unproven middle infield for a team looking to compete this year.

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 01:33 PM
Well, we really don't know how much pitching and speed we need until we see how things play out now do we? I don't pretend to be psychic and don't know how things will go this season, but the Sox might already be set at SP and the bullpen could be just fine. You don't know that they won't be either.

I wouldn't trade Crede for a PTBNL or even a bunch of maybes. I want some return. If you can get a starter by packaging him with Floyd and another minor league prospect then I'd do it. If he could bring a couple of solid prospects and a reliever, I'd do that too.

I still say PK's 35/100/.880 OPS are a good value at what we are paying him.

You really are taking the "let's wait and see how things play out" to the extreme.

At some point, in the offseason, you have to take a reasonable look at your team and say

"we have two rookies in the starting rotation, one guy who looks to be for ****, and a bullpen full of question marks and holes, and absolutely no leadoff man....maybe it's time to recognize these as problems and not wait for dem to play da games"

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 01:33 PM
Yeah, but he's been the #2 bat often enough and those were on good offensive teams. Prior to last season (when he had no protection the first half at all) he put up 3 years with an average OPS of .912. That's worth something on any team.

If I'm not mistaken, Konerko's OPS+ has never been over 135 and has quite often hovered around 110...not exactly stellar numbers

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 01:34 PM
except in 2003

Or last year

sox1970
01-05-2008, 01:35 PM
I called a friend who works in LA Angels front office and he said that the deal might go down by the end of the month and it would be

Sox sending
Konerko, Crede and prospect rumor is Shelby

Angels would send the Sox Figgins, Kendrick, Santana, Speier and Wilson

You seem to have friends in every organization. Didn't you have Bedard on the Mets and Hunter on the White Sox wrapped up?

:cool:

Rockabilly
01-05-2008, 01:39 PM
You seem to have friends in every organization. Didn't you have Bedard on the Mets and Hunter on the White Sox wrapped up?

:cool:


I have friends in 2 organzations the Angels and D Backs.. I have NEVER mention anything about Bedard coming to the Mets those reports were from writers not me... as well as Cowley saying Hunter coming to the Sox...

btrain929
01-05-2008, 01:40 PM
You really are taking the "let's wait and see how things play out" to the extreme.

At some point, in the offseason, you have to take a reasonable look at your team and say

"we have two rookies in the starting rotation, one guy who looks to be for ****, and a bullpen full of question marks and holes, and absolutely no leadoff man....maybe it's time to recognize these as problems and not wait for dem to play da games"

-Floyd had an era of 3 in September.
-The majority of those question marks and holes left when we got rid of Bukvich, Myers, and signed Linebrink.

Those are reasonable factors to acknowledge as well.

getonbckthr
01-05-2008, 01:41 PM
I don't really but into this rumor. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the Angels.

They could still use some more power in the middle of their lineup, but the Hunter signing at least gives them another 30 HR threat.

Their lineup as it currently stands isn't too bad. They already have a solid 1B in Kotchman. Yeah, he's not a big power threat, but he does everything else as well or better than Konerko. Obviously the HR difference is pretty big, especially for a team lacking in power, but it's not unreasonable to think Kotchman can hit 20 HR a year. So why replace him?

They could DH Konerko, but that bumps someone out of the lineup. Anderson would have to play left and Matthews would be a bench player, and he makes far too much for a bench player. And if Kendrick was dealt, and they were reluctant to trade him for Miguel freaking Cabrera at first, so I have my doubts as to whether they would trade him for Konerko, that opens up a hole at 2B.

The deal doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for the Angels. Obviously they could use Konerko's power in the middle of their lineup; but badly enough to trade away young players like Kendrick or Kotchman? I doubt it.
What would stop Anaheim from putting a package together of Matthews, Kotchman and pitching prospect for Brian Roberts to replace Kendrick at 2B and Figgins at leadoff?

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 01:43 PM
except in 2003

Well there ya go...

The other 7 seasons with OPS over .840 and only 2 below .850 don't compare to 2003...

getonbckthr
01-05-2008, 01:44 PM
What about 2 deals essentially creating a 3 way:
Sox get: Kendrick, Figgins, Santana RP (Bootcheck?)
Angels get: Konerko, Crede and Roberts
Baltimore gets: Matthews, Kotchman,Aardsma and Anaheim prospect Pitcher

Dan Mega
01-05-2008, 01:44 PM
I called a friend who works in LA Angels front office and he said that the deal might go down by the end of the month and it would be

Sox sending
Konerko, Crede and prospect rumor is Shelby

Angels would send the Sox Figgins, Kendrick, Santana, Speier and Wilson

LAAAAAAAA won't make that kind of deal.

btrain929
01-05-2008, 01:47 PM
What would stop Anaheim from putting a package together of Matthews, Kotchman and pitching prospect for Brian Roberts to replace Kendrick at 2B and Figgins at leadoff?

Cuz the Orioles, if they trade Roberts/Bedard, are trying to rebuild and go young/cheap. GMJ and his contract wouldn't fit that concept. Kotchman and some 'specs, maybe.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 01:47 PM
If I'm not mistaken, Konerko's OPS+ has never been over 135 and has quite often hovered around 110...not exactly stellar numbers

That's only compared to other 1B correct? So he's above average at a position that traditionally hits at the center of any MLB lineup...

btrain929
01-05-2008, 01:48 PM
What about 2 deals essentially creating a 3 way:
Sox get: Kendrick, Figgins, Santana RP (Bootcheck?)
Angels get: Konerko, Crede and Roberts
Baltimore gets: Matthews, Kotchman,Aardsma and Anaheim prospect Pitcher

Look above to post 124...

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 01:48 PM
-Floyd had an era of 3 in September.
-The majority of those question marks and holes left when we got rid of Bukvich, Myers, and signed Linebrink.

Those are reasonable factors to acknowledge as well.

This is a joke right?

I like Floyd as much as the next guy, but his 3.00 ERA in September should be weighed about as equally as his 6.00 ERA's 2 seasons in Phillie.

Getting rid of bad relievers is good, and signing Linebrink is even better, but that doesn't change the fact that we have 2, MAYBE 3 (if you consider Wasserman a sure thing) relievers out of 6 or 7 we can rely on

That means there are at LEAST 3 relief spots that are huge holes.

Seriously...this post was a joke right? Floyd had an ERA of 3 for one month after a fairly long period of horrible pitching and we GOT RID of 2 relievers?

:rolleyes:

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 01:49 PM
That's only compared to other 1B correct? So he's above average at a position that traditionally hits at the center of any MLB lineup...

No it's compared to all hitters.

WARP and VORP are compared to other 1B.

100 OPS+=average hitter

getonbckthr
01-05-2008, 01:50 PM
Cuz the Orioles, if they trade Roberts/Bedard, are trying to rebuild and go young/cheap. GMJ and his contract wouldn't fit that concept. Kotchman and some 'specs, maybe.

Look above to post 124...
Why couldn't the deal Matthews in July when a contending team might need a leadoff hitter and/or an outfielder?

btrain929
01-05-2008, 01:53 PM
Why couldn't the deal Matthews in July when a contending team might need a leadoff hitter and/or an outfielder?

That just seems like a lot of unnecessary work for a GM that I know I wouldn't be thinking of constructing months before the season began. You don't make moves with your #1 plan being to move them at the deadline.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 01:54 PM
This is a joke right?

I like Floyd as much as the next guy, but his 3.00 ERA in September should be weighed about as equally as his 6.00 ERA's 2 seasons in Phillie.

Getting rid of bad relievers is good, and signing Linebrink is even better, but that doesn't change the fact that we have 2, MAYBE 3 (if you consider Wasserman a sure thing) relievers out of 6 or 7 we can rely on

That means there are at LEAST 3 relief spots that are huge holes.

Seriously...this post was a joke right? Floyd had an ERA of 3 for one month after a fairly long period of horrible pitching and we GOT RID of 2 relievers?

:rolleyes:

Floyd is only 24 and had 24 career starts before coming to the Sox. Last year over 16 games and 10 starts he dropped his previous years ERA by over 2 points while pitching in one of the least friendly pitchers parks in the majors.

Expecting him to regress seems a bit odd, no?

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 01:57 PM
No it's compared to all hitters.

WARP and VORP are compared to other 1B.

100 OPS+=average hitter

So the league average OPS is like .765 and PK's career OPS is 10% greater if I understand the concept.

Wonder what his slg%+ is?

btrain929
01-05-2008, 01:59 PM
This is a joke right?

I like Floyd as much as the next guy, but his 3.00 ERA in September should be weighed about as equally as his 6.00 ERA's 2 seasons in Phillie.

Getting rid of bad relievers is good, and signing Linebrink is even better, but that doesn't change the fact that we have 2, MAYBE 3 (if you consider Wasserman a sure thing) relievers out of 6 or 7 we can rely on

That means there are at LEAST 3 relief spots that are huge holes.

Seriously...this post was a joke right? Floyd had an ERA of 3 for one month after a fairly long period of horrible pitching and we GOT RID of 2 relievers?

:rolleyes:

Bold #1: Why? When he was in Philly, he was rushed up there and had a lot of pressure at a young age. Last year, he actually had time to be in AAA to work on things and build some confidence. Then after getting shelled in some starts, he turns it around to put up solid efforts out of the bullpen, and finished up with about 6-8 very good starts. His stints with Philly and his stint with us last year were day and night as far as his progression, maturity, and results.

Bold #2: So you're saying you have 0% faith in Macdougal, Thornton, and Logan? Macdougal was more frustrating than Uribe last year, but I expect a bounce back. Thornton, if used properly (full innings against both RH and LH, not situationally) is very effective. The opposite for Logan (he's your LOOGY, don't use him against RH). So you're saying you want to trade all of them and acquire 3 more relievers for the pen? What are you going to trade to acquire them? What FA relievers would you sign? C'mon......:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

getonbckthr
01-05-2008, 01:59 PM
That just seems like a lot of unnecessary work for a GM that I know I wouldn't be thinking of constructing months before the season began. You don't make moves with your #1 plan being to move them at the deadline.
Didn't Texas do that with Gagne last season?

wsgdf
01-05-2008, 01:59 PM
If I'm not mistaken, Konerko's OPS+ has never been over 135 and has quite often hovered around 110...not exactly stellar numbers

Konerko's OPS+ beginning in 1999 (age 23)...

116
111
119
124
83
127
136
134
116

He never hovered around 110, unless you consider his age 24 season hovering.

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 02:00 PM
Floyd is only 24 and had 24 career starts before coming to the Sox. Last year over 16 games and 10 starts he dropped his previous years ERA by over 2 points while pitching in one of the least friendly pitchers parks in the majors.

Expecting him to regress seems a bit odd, no?

Um....I'm not saying he can't be good.

I'm saying one month of garbage time is silly to be banking on.

Floyd is the hugest hole in our rotation...and he's a huge hole in any rotation and having a decent September doesn't change that

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 02:01 PM
Bold #1: Why? When he was in Philly, he was rushed up there and had a lot of pressure at a young age. Last year, he actually had time to be in AAA to work on things and build some confidence. Then after getting shelled in some starts, he turns it around to put up solid efforts out of the bullpen, and finished up with about 6-8 very good starts. His stints with Philly and his stint with us last year were day and night as far as his progression, maturity, and results.

Bold #2: So you're saying you have 0% faith in Macdougal, Thornton, and Logan? Macdougal was more frustrating than Uribe last year, but I expect a bounce back. Thornton, if used properly (full innings against both RH and LH, not situationally) is very effective. The opposite for Logan (he's your LOOGY, don't use him against RH). So you're saying you want to trade all of them and acquire 3 more relievers for the pen? What are you going to trade to acquire them? What FA relievers would you sign? C'mon......:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

You misunderstand me.

There is not much reason to expect much of them.

Not there's no reason to think they could be good.

All these players have high upside, but they had high upside last year too.

So, like, you know

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 02:02 PM
Konerko's OPS+ beginning in 1999 (age 23)...

116
111
119
124
83
127
136
134
116

He never hovered around 110, unless you consider his age 24 season hovering.

Two very good years, and a bunch of pretty good years.

Meh

btrain929
01-05-2008, 02:02 PM
Didn't Texas do that with Gagne last season?

It worked out nicely, but I don't think that's what they had in mind when they signed him.

btrain929
01-05-2008, 02:03 PM
You misunderstand me.

There is not much reason to expect much of them.

Not there's no reason to think they could be good.

All these players have high upside, but they had high upside last year too.

So, like, you know

Uh..........huh? :?:

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 02:03 PM
Um....I'm not saying he can't be good.

I'm saying one month of garbage time is silly to be banking on.

Floyd is the hugest hole in our rotation...and he's a huge hole in any rotation and having a decent September doesn't change that

What do you expect out of him stat wise this year?

Would 13-12 4.80 ERA be enough? I can see him putting up those numbers pretty easily. Even if his ERA climbs to 5.2 he'd be a capable 5th starter, especially for a guy in his first full year as a starter.

getonbckthr
01-05-2008, 02:04 PM
It worked out nicely, but I don't think that's what they had in mind when they signed him.
Every "expert" said when Texas signed Gagne to a 1 year deal that the plan was exactly for him to come back from injury, perform well as a closer, then trade him at the deadline for younger players.

wsgdf
01-05-2008, 02:05 PM
So the league average OPS is like .765 and PK's career OPS is 10% greater if I understand the concept.

Wonder what his slg%+ is?

Concept is correct, number is wrong. His career OPS+ is 117, which means his career OPS is 17% greater (big difference). www.baseballreference.com (http://www.baseballreference.com) is a great site for this stuff.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 02:06 PM
Konerko's OPS+ beginning in 1999 (age 23)...

116
111
119
124
83
127
136
134
116

He never hovered around 110, unless you consider his age 24 season hovering.

And that's based off the Mean too. I wonder what the Median is.

And again, where does PK stack up in terms of Slg%+?

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 02:06 PM
What do you expect out of him stat wise this year?

Would 13-12 4.80 ERA be enough? I can see him putting up those numbers pretty easily. Even if his ERA climbs to 5.2 he'd be a capable 5th starter, especially for a guy in his first full year as a starter.

I'd be thrilled with those numbers.

I don't "expect" anything. I expect him to have a typical young pitcher in a new starting role kind of year.

I wouldn't be shocked to see him go 15-8 with 4.00 ERA and I wouldn't be shocked to see him flame out in May with a 6.00+ ERA.

I'm just saying there's no reason to feel confident we know what we can expect from Floyd. He's a bigger question mark than Danks, who is a pretty big question mark himself.

Let me ask you: what do you realistically EXPECT from Danks? Or can you even realistically EXPECT any kind of season for him?

Me personally, I expect a RANGE of expectations for Danks-- somewhere between a 3.50 ERA and a 5.00 ERA and pretty good but not great K/BB and K/9 #'s

ilsox7
01-05-2008, 02:06 PM
What do you expect out of him stat wise this year?

Would 13-12 4.80 ERA be enough? I can see him putting up those numbers pretty easily. Even if his ERA climbs to 5.2 he'd be a capable 5th starter, especially for a guy in his first full year as a starter.

If our 5th starter wins 13 games (meaning the guy who really was our 5th best starter for the year), then we go to the playoffs.

gogosox16
01-05-2008, 02:06 PM
What do you expect out of him stat wise this year?

Would 13-12 4.80 ERA be enough? I can see him putting up those numbers pretty easily. Even if his ERA climbs to 5.2 he'd be a capable 5th starter, especially for a guy in his first full year as a starter.
The only thing that scares me with Floyd is the inconsistentcy from start to start. I love his potential and he has major league stuff but he needs to come out every start and pitch deep into ball games and not have that one big inning. He's the new Vazquez who has awesome stuff but one inning will kill him.

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 02:07 PM
Uh..........huh? :?:


Basically when you're dealing with young pitchers who have never proven anything consistent (and in fact prover quite recently that they can be quite ineffective) it's silly to EXPECT them to play well. To rely on them to play well is even worse, and that's what we're doing right now

btrain929
01-05-2008, 02:09 PM
Every "expert" said when Texas signed Gagne to a 1 year deal that the plan was exactly for him to come back from injury, perform well as a closer, then trade him at the deadline for younger players.

Ummm, alright.

Lets just say this: if I had to put my money on it and give someone 5:1 odds, I don't think Baltimore will acquire GMJ. If they do, I'll give someone 10:1 odds that they won't deal him at the break.

I never thought I'd spend this much time in my life talking about Gary ****ing Matthews Jr.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 02:09 PM
Concept is correct, number is wrong. His career OPS+ is 117, which means his career OPS is 17% greater (big difference). www.baseballreference.com (http://www.baseballreference.com) is a great site for this stuff.

Yeah, that does alter things.

Where does that put him on a bell curve breakdown of all MLB hitters? Is he in the top 10%?

Stats without reference are meaningless...

gogosox16
01-05-2008, 02:09 PM
If our 5th starter wins 13 games (meaning the guy who really was our 5th best starter for the year), then we go to the playoffs.
2 balls 1 strike, Jenks with the pitch ground ball to 3rd Fields throws...Out!!!Out!!! A Whitesox Winner and A World Championship. There mobing eachother on the field as the Cubs watch the Sox celebrate at Wrigley field and now it has officially become 100 years with out winning a championship

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 02:09 PM
Yeah, that does alter things.

Where does that put him on a bell curve breakdown of all MLB hitters? Is he in the top 10%?

Stats without reference are meaningless...

Great seasons are usually around 150 OPS+

Jim Thome 2006= 155 OPS+. Jim Thome 2007=150 OPS+
Vlad Guerrerro 2007= 144 OPS+
Jermaine Dye 2006= 151 OPS+
Manny Ramirez 2006=165 OPS+

I dare not even delve into A-Rod and Bonds

I will say in A-Rod's slumpy 2006 (when the NY media called for his head) his OPS+ was 134...so...um

wsgdf
01-05-2008, 02:10 PM
Two very good years, and a bunch of pretty good years.

Meh

Sure... for comparison's sake, here's Frank Thomas starting at age 22:

177
180
174
177
211
179
178
181
125
125
163
94
118
146
156
131
140
125

LOL -he's still a better hitter. Should we talk about fan/media perception now?

btrain929
01-05-2008, 02:13 PM
Basically when you're dealing with young pitchers who have never proven anything consistent (and in fact prover quite recently that they can be quite ineffective) it's silly to EXPECT them to play well. To rely on them to play well is even worse, and that's what we're doing right now

I'm not expecting or relying on Floyd to do well.....I'm hoping he does, and I believe he has the skill set to do so.

I DO expect for Macdougal, Thornton, and Logan to be a little bit more consistent and productive then they were last year.

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 02:13 PM
I'm not expecting or relying on Floyd to do well.

I DO expect for Macdougal, Thornton, and Logan to be a little bit more consistent and productive then they were last year.

Sure..but that's not a safe expectation.


That's a hopeful expectation

And anyway, my original point was that the Sox are RELYING on them to do well.

Not you. And the fact is--the SOX ARE relying on them to do well....since they don't have any contingency plans

Jjav829
01-05-2008, 02:15 PM
What would stop Anaheim from putting a package together of Matthews, Kotchman and pitching prospect for Brian Roberts to replace Kendrick at 2B and Figgins at leadoff?

The fact that it doesn't make sense for them?

So under your plan the Angels would trade Kotchman (24), Kendrick (24), Figgins (29), some pitching prospect, and whatever else it would take for them to get Konerko (says Santana and Speier) for 31-year-olds Konerko and Roberts. They do get out from Matthews' contract (though I don't know that the Orioles would even want to take back that contract in a deal, but I'm simply using your hypothetical deal), which is a plus for them. But they replace two 24-year-olds who are under contract for 5 more years with two 31-year-olds, one signed for 2 more years (Roberts) and one for 3 more years (Konerko).

It maybe makes sense if the Angels were looking to make the strongest run they could at a World Series championship this year, as I think most would agree that Roberts and Konerko would be superior to Kendrick and Kotchman for the 2008 season. But in 2 seasons, Kendrick and Kotchman would be the more valuable combination. Add in they don't have to give up anything for them, plus their low salaries, and it's a no-brainer.

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 02:15 PM
Sure... for comparison's sake, here's Frank Thomas starting at age 22:

177
180
174
177
211
179
178
181
125
125
163
94
118
146
156
131
140
125

LOL -he's still a better hitter. Should we talk about fan/media perception now?

These stats show that even during Frank's past-his-prime years he was consistently a better hitter than Paulie.

During Frank's "prime" years, (i.e. pre 2001) Paulie couldn't sniff his jock.

OPS + confirms that.

Paulie's had only 2 years in his career that are better than Frank's 2003 onward. And Frank's 2003 onward is hardly the pinnacle of his career.

These numbers further cement my claim that Paulie was never anywhere close to the best hitter on the White Sox

cards press box
01-05-2008, 02:16 PM
That would be unbelievable, which leads me to believe it won't happen. I honestly don't see us receiving Kendrick in any deal. That would more than likely leave them with a middle infield of B.Wood and E.Aybar. That's a very young and unproven middle infield for a team looking to compete this year.

So, to address the lack of experience in the Angels' middle infield and to break the log jam, perhaps the Sox would throw Uribe into the deal and the Angels would agree to include Shields as opposed to Speier. The deal would then be:


Konerko, Crede, Uribe and prospect (Shelby?)

for

Figgins, Kendrick, Santana, Speier and Wilson

That would be some kind of blockbuster deal. Wow. By the way, is Wilson the catcher Bobby Wilson?

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 02:17 PM
Yeah, that does alter things.

Where does that put him on a bell curve breakdown of all MLB hitters? Is he in the top 10%?

Stats without reference are meaningless...

AH HA....

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPSplus_active.shtml

PK is 43rd among active players for career OPS+. By my reckoning that puts him in the 84th percentile amongst position starters in baseball. That's a pretty solid number...

Frater Perdurabo
01-05-2008, 02:19 PM
I think I know why Paulie is so loved.

PHG hit on it somewhat:

Konerko is the hero of every balding, overweight slow-footed dude with a bad body living along Lake Michigan from Zion to Michigan City.

Paulie is the baseball equivalent of Joe Six Pack, the guy who lugs a lunch bucket to work each day, where he wields a sledgehammer, pours concrete, drives a beer truck and/or works next to a blast furnace. He eats breakfast from the roach coach, drinks a thermos full of coffee on his midmorning break, drops by the corner tavern for three Old Styles after work, has meat and potatoes for dinner, and falls asleep in front of the TV in his La-Z-Boy recliner.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 02:20 PM
Great seasons are usually around 150 OPS+

Jim Thome 2006= 155 OPS+. Jim Thome 2007=150 OPS+
Vlad Guerrerro 2007= 144 OPS+
Jermaine Dye 2006= 151 OPS+
Manny Ramirez 2006=165 OPS+

I dare not even delve into A-Rod and Bonds

I will say in A-Rod's slumpy 2006 (when the NY media called for his head) his OPS+ was 134...so...um

No, those are GREAT ****ing seasons. There are currently 5 guys in all of MLB with career OPS+ greater than 150 and 15 greater than 140.

1.Barry Bonds* (42)182L
2.Albert Pujols (27)167R
3.Frank Thomas (39)157R
4.Manny Ramirez (35)154R
5.Jim Thome* (36)150L
6.Vladimir Guerrero (31)148R
7.Jason Giambi* (36)147L
Alex Rodriguez (31)147R
9.Lance Berkman# (31)146B
10.Miguel Cabrera (24)143R
Todd Helton* (33)143L
Chipper Jones# (35)143B
Gary Sheffield (38)143R
14.Mike Piazza (38)142R
15.Ken Griffey* (37)140L

Take out the suspicion of steroids and that's a who's who of serious HOF candidates in the next 15 years.

wsgdf
01-05-2008, 02:22 PM
AH HA....

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/OPSplus_active.shtml

PK is 43rd among active players for career OPS+. By my reckoning that puts him in the 84th percentile amongst position starters in baseball. That's a pretty solid number...


Yeah, but that percentile includes a lot of C, 2B, SS, CF. I wonder what would happen if you stack him up just against 1B/DH.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 02:26 PM
These stats show that even during Frank's past-his-prime years he was consistently a better hitter than Paulie.

During Frank's "prime" years, (i.e. pre 2001) Paulie couldn't sniff his jock.

OPS + confirms that.

Paulie's had only 2 years in his career that are better than Frank's 2003 onward. And Frank's 2003 onward is hardly the pinnacle of his career.

These numbers further cement my claim that Paulie was never anywhere close to the best hitter on the White Sox

Yeah, great so PK isn't Frank Thomas. Whoopty ****ing do. Why is it all or nothing? Why is it, you aren't a HOF'er, so get lost? There's a big fat middle ground out there and PK is well above average as a hitter. Is he a HOF caliber player? Probably not, but that STILL doesn't mean he's not worth holding on to.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 02:33 PM
Yeah, but that percentile includes a lot of C, 2B, SS, CF. I wonder what would happen if you stack him up just against 1B/DH.

Go for it and then calculate how many of them make more than PK and then calculate how many of them are as young as PK (he's only 31 and should have 5 more productive years at 1B before moving to DH (at least)).

Add in the fact that by playing 1B he allows the Sox to have Jim Thome (currently 5th on the active player OPS+ list) as DH.

batmanZoSo
01-05-2008, 02:40 PM
Yeah, great so PK isn't Frank Thomas. Whoopty ****ing do. Why is it all or nothing? Why is it, you aren't a HOF'er, so get lost? There's a big fat middle ground out there and PK is well above average as a hitter. Is he a HOF caliber player? Probably not, but that STILL doesn't mean he's not worth holding on to.

Not in lieu of the deal in question he isn't.

He's good but he's the guy I move at this point.

Frater Perdurabo
01-05-2008, 02:40 PM
but that STILL doesn't mean he's not worth holding on to.

Voodoo, no one seriously is claiming that Paulie sucks. Reasonable people can disagree on how valuable he is, and if he's worth a projected package of players in return. We all agree A-Rod > Paulie > Andy Gonzalez. If Paulie is traded it will be in a deal that both GMs agree is fair.

Nevertheless, if PK is dealt KW may want to make the announcement wearing a flak jacket while in a bomb shelter in a secure, undisclosed location. He also should warn talk radio hosts, Sox customer service reps, the Illinois State Police and WSI mods. West may need to rent some extra bandwidth and bring an additional server online, too.
:tongue:

getonbckthr
01-05-2008, 02:42 PM
The fact that it doesn't make sense for them?

So under your plan the Angels would trade Kotchman (24), Kendrick (24), Figgins (29), some pitching prospect, and whatever else it would take for them to get Konerko (says Santana and Speier) for 31-year-olds Konerko and Roberts. They do get out from Matthews' contract (though I don't know that the Orioles would even want to take back that contract in a deal, but I'm simply using your hypothetical deal), which is a plus for them. But they replace two 24-year-olds who are under contract for 5 more years with two 31-year-olds, one signed for 2 more years (Roberts) and one for 3 more years (Konerko).

It maybe makes sense if the Angels were looking to make the strongest run they could at a World Series championship this year, as I think most would agree that Roberts and Konerko would be superior to Kendrick and Kotchman for the 2008 season. But in 2 seasons, Kendrick and Kotchman would be the more valuable combination. Add in they don't have to give up anything for them, plus their low salaries, and it's a no-brainer.
I'm not saying your wrong, I agree with you completely in this post. I'm just going off of what was mentioned in the rumor. Also who knows maybe Anaheim is determined to win now and not worried about 3 years from now. Signing Hunter to the deal they did supports this theory as well. Then factor in that Vlad is getting up in years as is Anderson and maybe they are making a 1-2 year push and figure to worry about 2010 and beyond when we reach it. Don't forget Anaheim's check book is also big so what would stop them just signing someone in a few years (Ryan Howard).

wsgdf
01-05-2008, 02:42 PM
Go for it and then calculate how many of them make more than PK and then calculate how many of them are as young as PK (he's only 31 and should have 5 more productive years at 1B before moving to DH (at least)).

Add in the fact that by playing 1B he allows the Sox to have Jim Thome (currently 5th on the active player OPS+ list) as DH.


No thanks. I'm watching the kids. Nick Swisher has a career OPS+ is 118.

A quick look at the 1B near him on the BR list you ran gives you names like...

Tony Clark - 113
Dmitri Young - 114
Kevin Millar - 115
Mike Sweeney - 119
Matt Stairs - 120
Richie Sexson - 121
Derrek Lee - 124

Still, if it's up to me... Konerko stays and Swisher is in the outfield... unless the Angels give us either Kotchman or Kendrick which I don't see happening.

batmanZoSo
01-05-2008, 02:46 PM
Sure... for comparison's sake, here's Frank Thomas starting at age 22:

177
180
174
177
211
179
178
181
125
125
163
94
118
146
156
131
140
125

LOL -he's still a better hitter. Should we talk about fan/media perception now?

That's one of the best RH hitters to ever pick up a bat as those numbers show.

Sorry, Konerko is good but his value to this team is overrated by his fan favoritism. Yay Paulie! I call him Konerko myself.

batmanZoSo
01-05-2008, 02:48 PM
No thanks. I'm watching the kids. Nick Swisher has a career OPS+ is 118.

A quick look at the 1B near him on the BR list you ran gives you names like...

Tony Clark - 113
Dmitri Young - 114
Kevin Millar - 115
Mike Sweeney - 119
Matt Stairs - 120
Richie Sexson - 121
Derrek Lee - 124

Still, if it's up to me... Konerko stays and Swisher is in the outfield... unless the Angels give us either Kotchman or Kendrick which I don't see happening.

Swisher might be a better hitter than Konerko. He never had the eye and patience that Swisher does. Konerko's never sniffed 100 walks and Swisher got it last year.

Pilgrim
01-05-2008, 02:49 PM
http://www.dailynews.com/sports/ci_7887205


A source has indicated the Angels and Chicago White Sox are discussing a second trade of the offseason, with this one sending Paul Konerko to the Angels, while Howie Kendrick and Ervin Santana are possible candidates to head to Chicago. Indications are, though, that the White Sox also have inquired about a package that includes Chone Figgins. The White Sox are also in the market for bullpen help after their relievers melted down most of last season.

Thoughts? Enough inreturn to trade PK?

getonbckthr
01-05-2008, 02:50 PM
Swisher might be a better hitter than Konerko. He never had the eye and patience that Swisher does. Konerko's never sniffed 100 walks and Swisher got it last year.
Good point also factor in difference of what 5 years age, 9 million dollars, and the fact Paulie has played his whole career at Comiskey where Swisher has played at the enormous A's stadium.

ilsox7
01-05-2008, 02:50 PM
Swisher might be a better hitter than Konerko. He never had the eye and patience that Swisher does. Konerko's never sniffed 100 walks and Swisher got it last year.

PK's downfall, to me, has always been how streaky of a hitter he is. Maybe the stats don't back it up (I'd bet they do), but he seems to not string consistent months together. Don't get me wrong, I like PK and he's a good ballplayer, but he is not untouchable.

If the packages being discussed in this thread are realistic (huge if), then something could get done.

getonbckthr
01-05-2008, 02:54 PM
Isn' the Anaheim GM in 1st season ever as a GM? If so i'm hoping he values stats more than anything else.

batmanZoSo
01-05-2008, 02:54 PM
PK's downfall, to me, has always been how streaky of a hitter he is. Maybe the stats don't back it up (I'd bet they do), but he seems to not string consistent months together. Don't get me wrong, I like PK and he's a good ballplayer, but he is not untouchable.

If the packages being discussed in this thread are realistic (huge if), then something could get done.

That's something I left out above.

I don't know if Swisher's streaky or not. It's a bit anecdotal but I think Konerko's proved it over the years.

Frater Perdurabo
01-05-2008, 03:07 PM
Maybe the stats don't back it up (I'd bet they do), but he seems to not string consistent months together.

My recollection is that he'll have two crappy months, then have three really solid months. It seems to me that he goes on extended slumps and extended streaks. I don't recall that he's ever carried the Sox by himself, but he tends to heat up in unison with one or two other hitters.

When he's slumping, his staunchest defenders blame other players for not doing anything. They say that it's the other players' fault for Paulie not getting any good pitches to hit. Right after that, he'll step up to the plate with one out and runners on first and second. He'll take the first pitch for a strke, then "just miss a cookie," then step out of the box to adjust his velcro batting gloves, then take a ball, then cream a liner over the 3B dugout, then step out of the box to adjust his velcro batting gloves again, and finally smash a ground ball right to the shortstop for a GIDP. Or he might strike out by whiffing at Ball 2, and "hang dog" it back to the dugout. Two innings later, with two outs and the bases empty, he'll hit a soft single or a solo homer.

ilsox7
01-05-2008, 03:24 PM
My recollection is that he'll have two crappy months, then have three really solid months. It seems to me that he goes on extended slumps and extended streaks. I don't recall that he's ever carried the Sox by himself, but he tends to heat up in unison with one or two other hitters.

When he's slumping, his staunchest defenders blame other players for not doing anything. They say that it's the other players' fault for Paulie not getting any good pitches to hit. Right after that, he'll step up to the plate with one out and runners on first and second. He'll take the first pitch for a strke, then "just miss a cookie," then step out of the box to adjust his velcro batting gloves, then take a ball, then cream a liner over the 3B dugout, then step out of the box to adjust his velcro batting gloves again, and finally smash a ground ball right to the shortstop for a GIDP. Or he might strike out by whiffing at Ball 2, and "hang dog" it back to the dugout. Two innings later, with two outs and the bases empty, he'll hit a soft single or a solo homer.

I love it!

You're as obsessed with PK as I am with Taxi #1. This is all good.

batmanZoSo
01-05-2008, 03:29 PM
My recollection is that he'll have two crappy months, then have three really solid months. It seems to me that he goes on extended slumps and extended streaks. I don't recall that he's ever carried the Sox by himself, but he tends to heat up in unison with one or two other hitters.

When he's slumping, his staunchest defenders blame other players for not doing anything. They say that it's the other players' fault for Paulie not getting any good pitches to hit. Right after that, he'll step up to the plate with one out and runners on first and second. He'll take the first pitch for a strke, then "just miss a cookie," then step out of the box to adjust his velcro batting gloves, then take a ball, then cream a liner over the 3B dugout, then step out of the box to adjust his velcro batting gloves again, and finally smash a ground ball right to the shortstop for a GIDP. Or he might strike out by whiffing at Ball 2, and "hang dog" it back to the dugout. Two innings later, with two outs and the bases empty, he'll hit a soft single or a solo homer.

That's pretty accurate. When Konerko is struggling, he's 0-2 before he steps up to the plate. Not to sound like Hawk or anything. It's like strike, strike, pop up/grounder to short/strike out. You can tell whether he's locked in or not, instantly, just by the way he takes pitches. It's kind of funny.

Crede and Uribe are prone to not do anything for 8 weeks then hitting .380 for a month. It's tough to score runs consistently when a third of your lineup is as streaky as Marlon Brando's underpants.

ilsox7
01-05-2008, 03:33 PM
Crede and Uribe are prone to not do anything for 8 weeks then hitting .380 for a month. It's tough to score runs consistently when a third of your lineup is as streaky as Marlon Brando's underpants.

Which is why Cabrera and Swisher should help this line-up a ton.

Frater Perdurabo
01-05-2008, 03:41 PM
Which is why Cabrera and Swisher should help this line-up a ton.

And why Figgins and his .390 OBP would help it even more! :tongue:

Frater Perdurabo
01-05-2008, 03:45 PM
Crede and Uribe are prone to not do anything for 8 weeks then hitting .380 for a month. It's tough to score runs consistently when a third of your lineup is as streaky as Marlon Brando's underpants.

Yes, but Crede and Uribe do it in their own unique ways.

Crede has as many popups as Mark Prior has simulated innings pitched.

Uribe's strikeout triple toe loops are as good as Tonya Harding's.

Lillian
01-05-2008, 03:52 PM
The ¨wild card¨ factor in this rumored trade may be just how badly the Angels want to get that Matthews contract off of their books. They have no place for him to play, and it is going to cost them $30 million over the next 3 years. If they could get Konerko, with his reasonable contract, while getting rid of Matthews, they will have filled their need for a bat to hit behind Vlad, at a net cost of $2 Million per year, for the next three years.

I think we have to view this as the Sox giving the Angels a player, plus taking a bad contract, in exchange for what they give us. Now exactly what they give us is an entirely separate question. My vote would be for Kendrick, and pitching, perhaps one of their 6 starters, 7 if you include Arenhardt, and maybe one bullpen arm.

The interesting thing here is that while it could be considered a sacrifice for us to take Matthews, and his bad contract, would it really be so awfull to have a veteran Gold Glove caliber centerfielder for a couple of years? After all, that has been one of the holes which we have been trying to fill. Aside from the Steroid issue, I wouldn´t mind his career offensive production, with the defense he brings.

We still wouldn´t have the prototypical lead off hitter, but we wouldn´t have any holes in the offense, and lots of guys with good OBP´s. If we can have some guys on base, with more speed, and decent power, maybe that is as good as a guy who can steal 50 bases, at the top of the order.

Line up:

2B Kendrick
SS Cabrera
DH Thome - Fields platoon. (I still love that combined offensive juggernaut)
RF Dye
1B Swisher
3B Crede
CF Matthews
LF Quentin
C A.J. P

That is a nice mix of right and left handed hitters, with better speed than we have had, and still plenty of power.

Fields could get enough at bats spelling Crede at third, while the latter slowly builds his lower back strength. The games that Fields starts, could find Crede used for defensive purposes late in the game. And then you have the benefit of a good bat coming off the bench as a pinch hitter.

gr8mexico
01-05-2008, 05:24 PM
Well if the Sox can get Figgins and Kendrick for Konerko this Free's up alot of money for next year and will have a very young team. The Sox can easily outbid anyone next year for one of the top FA next year.
CF Figgins
SS Cabrera
DH Thome
RF Dye
1B Swisher
2B Kendrick
3B Fields
C A.J
LF Quentin
This team actually would look better then Detroit.

SoxNation05
01-05-2008, 05:28 PM
I heard someone's friend got an an email about a PK trade.

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 05:37 PM
No, those are GREAT ****ing seasons. There are currently 5 guys in all of MLB with career OPS+ greater than 150 and 15 greater than 140.

1.Barry Bonds* (42)182L
2.Albert Pujols (27)167R
3.Frank Thomas (39)157R
4.Manny Ramirez (35)154R
5.Jim Thome* (36)150L
6.Vladimir Guerrero (31)148R
7.Jason Giambi* (36)147L
Alex Rodriguez (31)147R
9.Lance Berkman# (31)146B
10.Miguel Cabrera (24)143R
Todd Helton* (33)143L
Chipper Jones# (35)143B
Gary Sheffield (38)143R
14.Mike Piazza (38)142R
15.Ken Griffey* (37)140L

Take out the suspicion of steroids and that's a who's who of serious HOF candidates in the next 15 years.

I said it was a great season...it's right there in my post.

However, fact of the matter is, Paulie's never come close to a great season. 135 is about as high as he gets :shrug:

batmanZoSo
01-05-2008, 05:39 PM
Konerko's never had a great year. He's just good and dependable from year to year.

gogosox16
01-05-2008, 05:41 PM
Well if the Sox can get Figgins and Kendrick for Konerko this Free's up alot of money for next year and will have a very young team. The Sox can easily outbid anyone next year for one of the top FA next year.
CF Figgins
SS Cabrera
DH Thome
RF Dye
1B Swisher
2B Kendrick
3B Fields
C A.J
LF Quentin
This team actually would look better then Detroit.
Figgins=Granderson
Cabrera=Renteria
Thome>Sheffield
Dye<Maggs
Swisher<Guillen
Kendrick<Polanco (its tough cause Polanco is proven and Kendrick is still young)
Fields<Cabrera
A.J. <Pudge
Quentin=Jones

They still have us is the most part.

SoxNation05
01-05-2008, 05:44 PM
Figgins=Granderson
Cabrera=Renteria
Thome>Sheffield
Dye<Maggs
Swisher<Guillen
Kendrick<Polanco (its tough cause Polanco is proven and Kendrick is still young)
Fields<Cabrera
A.J. <Pudge
Quentin=Jones

They still have us is the most part.

That's about right.

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 05:45 PM
Figgins=Granderson
Cabrera=Renteria
Thome>Sheffield
Dye<Maggs
Swisher<Guillen
Kendrick<Polanco (its tough cause Polanco is proven and Kendrick is still young)
Fields<Cabrera
A.J. <Pudge
Quentin=Jones

They still have us is the most part.


Figgins doesn't play 1/2 as good defense as Granderson

gogosox16
01-05-2008, 05:50 PM
Figgins doesn't play 1/2 as good defense as Granderson
I'm not considering defense cause the guy that posted ahead of me said that this teams offense was just as good as Detroits and I was comparing them

Daver
01-05-2008, 05:53 PM
I'm not considering defense cause the guy that posted ahead of me said that this teams offense was just as good as Detroits and I was comparing them

That is not what he said.

gogosox16
01-05-2008, 05:56 PM
That is not what he said.
Alright so the person said that the Sox overall would look better than the Tigers. I can say we would look a lot better than we would right now but we would still have question marks in the rotation and bulpen. So I would have the Tigers are still in better position right now.

drewcifer
01-05-2008, 05:56 PM
The ¨wild card¨ factor in this rumored trade may be just how badly the Angels want to get that Matthews contract off of their books. They have no place for him to play, and it is going to cost them $30 million over the next 3 years. If they could get Konerko, with his reasonable contract, while getting rid of Matthews, they will have filled their need for a bat to hit behind Vlad, at a net cost of $2 Million per year, for the next three years.

I think we have to view this as the Sox giving the Angels a player, plus taking a bad contract, in exchange for what they give us. Now exactly what they give us is an entirely separate question. My vote would be for Kendrick, and pitching, perhaps one of their 6 starters, 7 if you include Arenhardt, and maybe one bullpen arm.

The interesting thing here is that while it could be considered a sacrifice for us to take Matthews, and his bad contract, would it really be so awfull to have a veteran Gold Glove caliber centerfielder for a couple of years? After all, that has been one of the holes which we have been trying to fill. Aside from the Steroid issue, I wouldn´t mind his career offensive production, with the defense he brings.

We still wouldn´t have the prototypical lead off hitter, but we wouldn´t have any holes in the offense, and lots of guys with good OBP´s. If we can have some guys on base, with more speed, and decent power, maybe that is as good as a guy who can steal 50 bases, at the top of the order.

Line up:

2B Kendrick
SS Cabrera
DH Thome - Fields platoon. (I still love that combined offensive juggernaut)
RF Dye
1B Swisher
3B Crede
CF Matthews
LF Quentin
C A.J. P

That is a nice mix of right and left handed hitters, with better speed than we have had, and still plenty of power.

Fields could get enough at bats spelling Crede at third, while the latter slowly builds his lower back strength. The games that Fields starts, could find Crede used for defensive purposes late in the game. And then you have the benefit of a good bat coming off the bench as a pinch hitter.

KW should say no and walk away from any deal that involves Matthews. That is the Angels problem; the same team that felt compelled to step in and offer Hunter $90M and screw up plans from step 1.

Willits/Figgins, Shields, and Santana for Konerko/Crede is fair. In fact KW should even ask for Saunders too, but to take on Matthews contract for that addition is a mistake.

They already got Garland in exchange for O-Cab pretty much straight up. No reason to let this team continue to get better at our expense.

Gary Matthews Jr. sucks for the $ he costs. I hate the idea of him being our CFer.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 06:05 PM
I said it was a great season...it's right there in my post.

However, fact of the matter is, Paulie's never come close to a great season. 135 is about as high as he gets :shrug:

Yeah, I misread your great as good when I typed my reply, sorry.

However, Konerko is a very good player and that's how he's being paid.

Trade him for a big package or not at all. The Sox can afford him and he's not exactly blocking someone better...

SoxNation05
01-05-2008, 06:12 PM
PK, Richar and Crede
for
Figgins, Kendrick, Santana and Adenhart

drewcifer
01-05-2008, 06:33 PM
PK, Richar and Crede
for
Figgins, Kendrick, Santana and Adenhart

Not going to get Kendrick either. That's the AL Chase Utley. And Adenhart is their value/showcase buildup (like McCarthy was for us) plus deadline trade piece if/when they need it.

I keep coming back to the same trade. :dunno: There's makings for something here, but the key is an SP, RP, and OFer for us in exchange for Paulie and Crede.

Sign an FA SP like Lohse or Hernandez... or better still, reach out to AJ Burnett's agent and see if he likes the idea of 3/36 with us, instead of the Blue Jays since he can opt out, and we've got ourselves a team.

Lineup:
Willits/Figgins - CF
O-Cab - SS
Thome - DH
Dye - RF
Swisher - 1B
Fields - 3B
Pierzynski - C
Quentin - LF
Richar - 2B

Rotation:

Buehrle
Vazquez
Hernandez/Lohse/Burnett
Santana
Danks/Contreras/Floyd

Bullpen:

Shields
Linebrink
Thornton
Logan
Wasserman
Danks/Contreras/Floyd
Jenks

Bench:

Ozuna
Owens
Uribe
Ramirez

That would be a MASSIVE improvement over the last 2 seasons. There's competition which is always good for BP spots (Sisco, Aardsma, Massett, and whoever gets booted from the SP out of Danks/Contreras/Floyd), SP (if an FA is signed, between Contreras, Floyd, and Danks), injury substitution capability at all OF, pitching, and IF spots, a good bench, and WAY better OBP and speed.

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 06:34 PM
Yeah, I misread your great as good when I typed my reply, sorry.

However, Konerko is a very good player and that's how he's being paid.

Trade him for a big package or not at all. The Sox can afford him and he's not exactly blocking someone better...

Sure. Konerko isn't really overpaid. In fact, he's not a bad deal cash-wise.

However, trading him SHOULD be priority one because he's the only piece of value we have less and because it doesn't hurt us much to lose him.

SoxNation05
01-05-2008, 06:41 PM
Why couldnt we have traded PK for O-Cab and Willits?

CF Willits
SS Cabrera
DH Thome
RF Dye
1B Swisher
3B Fields
C Pierzynski
LF Quentin
2B Richar

Buerhle,Vazques,Garland,Contreras, and Danks

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 06:42 PM
Sure. Konerko isn't really overpaid. In fact, he's not a bad deal cash-wise.

However, trading him SHOULD be priority one because he's the only piece of value we have less and because it doesn't hurt us much to lose him.

Better be one heck of a deal for two reasons, IMO.

First because it does open up a hole somewhere on the field. Someone needs to move to first and that opens up a hole elsewhere.

Second because after 2009 the Sox lose Dye and Thome so PK is the only power stick signed for a reasonably lengthy period of time.

drewcifer
01-05-2008, 07:03 PM
Better be one heck of a deal for two reasons, IMO.

First because it does open up a hole somewhere on the field. Someone needs to move to first and that opens up a hole elsewhere.

Second because after 2009 the Sox lose Dye and Thome so PK is the only power stick signed for a reasonably lengthy period of time.

Swisher.

He's made no secret about it being his favorite position to play.

In the Cell, he wouldn't be much of a downgrade offensively IMO.

kwkonsl
01-05-2008, 07:07 PM
Better be one heck of a deal for two reasons, IMO.

First because it does open up a hole somewhere on the field. Someone needs to move to first and that opens up a hole elsewhere.

Second because after 2009 the Sox lose Dye and Thome so PK is the only power stick signed for a reasonably lengthy period of time.

We will still have Fields and Swisher
Carlos Q has power potential, and Dye very well could be resigned to be our DH. Plus power isnt a big concern because we play in a park that creates it own power. It is important to add above average speed and high OBP guys. Swisher, Kendrick, Figgons, Quentin are all high OBP type guys

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 07:13 PM
Swisher.

He's made no secret about it being his favorite position to play.

In the Cell, he wouldn't be much of a downgrade offensively IMO.

And who plays CF?

drewcifer
01-05-2008, 07:17 PM
And who plays CF?

If Konerko is traded in a deal that gets one of Willits/Figgins, them. Both are an upgrade offensively enough that their defensive short comings offset Jerry Owens. Swish can sub in. Anderson is still in Charlotte. CF has much better options than Anderson/Erstadt/Sweeney.

It's an improvement every which way you look at it. And we still haven't even seen Alexei Ramirez or Carlos Quentin.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 07:17 PM
We will still have Fields and Swisher
Carlos Q has power potential, and Dye very well could be resigned to be our DH. Plus power isnt a big concern because we play in a park that creates it own power. It is important to add above average speed and high OBP guys. Swisher, Kendrick, Figgons, Quentin are all high OBP type guys

I'd prefer to keep PK AND re-sign Dye (DH) and move Swisher to RF long term.

Since when is having a ton of power a bad idea?

fquaye149
01-05-2008, 07:21 PM
Better be one heck of a deal for two reasons, IMO.

First because it does open up a hole somewhere on the field. Someone needs to move to first and that opens up a hole elsewhere.

Second because after 2009 the Sox lose Dye and Thome so PK is the only power stick signed for a reasonably lengthy period of time.

Not really--we have 3 corner OF's right now who could supposedly be good hitters.

Also, that being the case (re: Dye and Thome) it's pretty sad if we're relying on Konerko to be the power stick. Frankly, I think Fields, Quentin and Swisher, if they develop, will provide plenty of power. If they don't, we're ****ed anyway.

Plus, it shouldn't be all that hard to pick up a FA 1B/DH type player good for 30 bombs :Shrug:

drewcifer
01-05-2008, 07:22 PM
I'd prefer to keep PK AND re-sign Dye (DH) and move Swisher to RF long term.

Since when is having a ton of power a bad idea?

?

Dye IS resigned. He can move to DH and Swisher can move to RF in '09 (or whenever Thome is gone) - fine. Still doesn't change the fact that the best chance to move Paulie for needed pieces is NOW.

Daver
01-05-2008, 07:26 PM
?

Dye IS resigned. He can move to DH and Swisher can move to RF in '09 (or whenever Thome is gone) - fine. Still doesn't change the fact that the best chance to move Paulie for needed pieces is NOW.

It's pretty much the only chance really.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 07:28 PM
?

Dye IS resigned. He can move to DH and Swisher can move to RF in '09 (or whenever Thome is gone) - fine. Still doesn't change the fact that the best chance to move Paulie for needed pieces is NOW.

Thought Dye only signed a two year extension. That's over after 2009.

drewcifer
01-05-2008, 07:30 PM
Thought Dye only signed a two year extension. That's over after 2009.

2 yr, $22M with a 2010 option. If he's still kicking ass, we can keep 'em.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 07:31 PM
?

Dye IS resigned. He can move to DH and Swisher can move to RF in '09 (or whenever Thome is gone) - fine. Still doesn't change the fact that the best chance to move Paulie for needed pieces is NOW.

The only serious "piece" I see the Sox needing is a top three starter. You can land me that, trade PK. Otherwise, I'll take my chances.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 07:33 PM
2 yr, $22M with a 2010 option. If he's still kicking ass, we can keep 'em.

Okay, cool...

drewcifer
01-05-2008, 07:38 PM
Okay, cool...

So, - if we could get a Willits/Figgins, Shields, and Santana deal for Paulie and Crede... would you do it? I'd ask for Saunders too (if I were KW, and talk Crede up a ton in asking....) But would you settle for that?

God, that's so more than fair in my mind and helps out each a ton.

They want out of GMJ though, but that's not our problem. I wouldn't do that deal unless we get Kendrick; Saunders thrown in isn't enough.

voodoochile
01-05-2008, 07:50 PM
So, - if we could get a Willits/Figgins, Shields, and Santana deal for Paulie and Crede... would you do it? I'd ask for Saunders too (if I were KW, and talk Crede up a ton in asking....) But would you settle for that?

God, that's so more than fair in my mind and helps out each a ton.

They want out of GMJ though, but that's not our problem. I wouldn't do that deal unless we get Kendrick; Saunders thrown in isn't enough.

I don't really follow anyone but the Sox, so strictly off of stats, it looks like a solid trade. Is Santana really that much of an upgrade over the kids we have now? What happened last year?

Throw in Quentin and see if they'll give us both Willits and Figgins and then move Fields to first and leave Swisher in CF...

DSpivack
01-05-2008, 07:52 PM
I don't really follow anyone but the Sox, so strictly off of stats, it looks like a solid trade. Is Santana really that much of an upgrade over the kids we have now? What happened last year?

Throw in Quentin and see if they'll give us both Willits and Figgins and then move Fields to first and leave Swisher in CF...

Am I the only one who wants no part of Ervin Santana? His home/road splits are strange enough to make me think he might be a headcase.

Optipessimism
01-05-2008, 07:53 PM
So, - if we could get a Willits/Figgins, Shields, and Santana deal for Paulie and Crede... would you do it? I'd ask for Saunders too (if I were KW, and talk Crede up a ton in asking....) But would you settle for that?

I don't want the Sox to settle for that. Adenhart + Santana + Willits would work for me though.

I don't see the obsession with Figgins around here. He's a FA after '09, he will cost a ton (think Juan Pierre's contract even further inflated to reflect this market, then add on more... yikes), and he doesn't play great defense at any position. I'd rather have Willits because even though he's not going to steal as many bases, at least he'd be under team control a lot longer.

Santana is a good buy low option, but shouldn't be a centerpiece. I think the Kendrick mention is far-fetched unless we're taking on GMJ, but Adenhart shouldn't be. If they want Shelby too, I want Jordan Walden.

Optipessimism
01-05-2008, 07:56 PM
Am I the only one who wants no part of Ervin Santana? His home/road splits are strange enough to make me think he might be a headcase.

He is a headcase.

So is Gavin Floyd. Since we're going to be giving a rotation slot to a headcase, I'd rather have the guy who has at least had success in the bigs before and is a much better bet to have success in the future.

drewcifer
01-05-2008, 07:57 PM
I don't really follow anyone but the Sox, so strictly off of stats, it looks like a solid trade. Is Santana really that much of an upgrade over the kids we have now? What happened last year?

Throw in Quentin and see if they'll give us both Willits and Figgins and then move Fields to first and leave Swisher in CF...

If we throw in Quentin and it does get us Willits and Figgins, then I want to see an outfield of Dye in RF, and one of Ramirez/Willits/Figgins to take care of CF and LF, not Swisher.

Swisher at 1B. He'll mash.

You'll have gone to having 2 prepared major league 3B's to none if you put Fields at 1B.

drewcifer
01-05-2008, 08:03 PM
He is a headcase.

So is Gavin Floyd. Since we're going to be giving a rotation slot to a headcase, I'd rather have the guy who has at least had success in the bigs before and is a much better bet to have success in the future.

That's how I look at it too. Plus, the "Coop factor". :tongue:

Best of all, Contreras moves down to a 5 spot and has to compete for it IF...IF... the left over $ (not used on Hunter's $75M) is still used to get an FA (or Burnett):

Buehrle
Vazquez
FA (Lohse/Hernandez/Burnett - if Burnett, he's #2)
Danks
Floyd/Santana/Contreras

That's alot better than what we've got at the moment.

SoxNation05
01-05-2008, 08:04 PM
Carlos Quentin will not be traded.

drewcifer
01-05-2008, 08:39 PM
I don't want the Sox to settle for that. Adenhart + Santana + Willits would work for me though.

I don't see the obsession with Figgins around here. He's a FA after '09, he will cost a ton (think Juan Pierre's contract even further inflated to reflect this market, then add on more... yikes), and he doesn't play great defense at any position. I'd rather have Willits because even though he's not going to steal as many bases, at least he'd be under team control a lot longer.

Santana is a good buy low option, but shouldn't be a centerpiece. I think the Kendrick mention is far-fetched unless we're taking on GMJ, but Adenhart shouldn't be. If they want Shelby too, I want Jordan Walden.

I'd prefer Willits too. Adenhart isn't going to happen. That's why I was realistic with Shields. Plus, I just like him.

Don't forget - Crede is a 1 year pony and he just had back surgery too.

The deal is fair and equitable.

Gary Matthews being involved ****s everything up. If we have to take him, I would ask for everything (there is a price for picking up YOUR garbage).

BadBobbyJenks
01-05-2008, 09:44 PM
This was exhausting to get through.

I love Paul Konerko, but if we get the package of Kendrick, Figgins and santana I would do it in a heartbeat. Does anyone think we are not better off in 08 and beyond after making this deal?

Howie Kendrick will compete for batting titles for years to come and all of a sudden we have a decent young nucleus to build around that will also seriously compete in 08.




And as for Floyd and Danks expectations in 08, not sure who said it but I completely agree. We have no idea what to expect from them, but it is a mistake for the white sox to be RELYING on them to produce.

Tragg
01-05-2008, 09:49 PM
So if I boil all of this down for Konerko and Crede we get a headcase pitcher, a middle reliever and a rental.
How nice.
Ironic considering we couldn't get a single decent prospect for Dye at last year's deadline. Rentals are the last thing we should do. Keep Figgins out of it. Get a different player.

SoxNation05
01-05-2008, 09:55 PM
The more I think the more I want Howie Kendrick on this team.
PK, Crede and Richar
for Kendrick, Figgins, and Shields

Martinigirl
01-05-2008, 09:58 PM
Who would want Crede when no one knows for sure the state of his back? I just don't see anyone wanting him in a trade until he can prove himself in spring training.

BadBobbyJenks
01-05-2008, 09:59 PM
So if I boil all of this down for Konerko and Crede we get a headcase pitcher, a middle reliever and a rental.
How nice.
Ironic considering we couldn't get a single decent prospect for Dye at last year's deadline. Rentals are the last thing we should do. Keep Figgins out of it. Get a different player.


Um the deal is centered around Kendrick or it wont be made...

johnny_mostil
01-05-2008, 09:59 PM
The more I think the more I want Howie Kendrick on this team.
PK, Crede and Richar
for Kendrick, Figgins, and Shields

But Kendrick is allergic to walks, which makes him a terrible long-term bet...

batmanZoSo
01-05-2008, 10:02 PM
http://www.dailybreeze.com/sports/ci_7886756

A source has indicated that the Angels and Chicago White Sox are discussing a second trade of the offseason, this one sending first baseman Paul Konerko to the Angels, with Howie Kendrick and Ervin Santana going to Chicago.


Indications are, though, that the White Sox also have inquired about a package that includes Chone Figgins.


This is also from early this morning. No Crede.

SoxNation05
01-05-2008, 10:03 PM
http://www.dailybreeze.com/sports/ci_7886756



This is also from early this morning. No Crede.
Throw in Crede and Oneli Perez and they throw in Willits.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-05-2008, 10:23 PM
I have never picked up the Palos Verdes Peninsula News, but having read this insightful rumor piece on their DailyBreeze website, I'm thinking of signing up for a lifetime of home delivery!
:wink:

Who knew creating a bunch of **** and putting it on the internet could cause such a stir?

:cool:

:KW
"I guess I'm forced to pull the trigger on this deal now that the DailyBreeze has blown the lid on it!"

batmanZoSo
01-05-2008, 10:28 PM
Take that LA!

Brian26
01-05-2008, 10:29 PM
:wink:

Who knew creating a bunch of **** and putting it on the internet could cause such a stir?


You don't know how true that is. I wasn't around a computer this afternoon, but I had two of my best friends call and text me with this news. I think it created quite a stir beyond the internet.

Optipessimism
01-05-2008, 10:52 PM
So if I boil all of this down for Konerko and Crede we get a headcase pitcher, a middle reliever and a rental.
How nice.
Ironic considering we couldn't get a single decent prospect for Dye at last year's deadline. Rentals are the last thing we should do. Keep Figgins out of it. Get a different player.
The article all this is coming from says Konerko for Kendrick and Santana. It said Figgins was being talked about and Rotoworld said something about this not working unless we take GMJ.

I tend to agree with Rotoworld's assessment. I doubt we'd get Kendrick without taking on GMJ unless the Angels are extremely high on either Paulie or crack. If other GM's knew Kendrick was available, what would stop another organization from putting together a package better than what we could offer in Paulie?

I agree with you on Paulie + Crede for Santana + Figgins + Shields/Speier being a horrible trade for us. We would be trading a sure thing power hitter in Paulie and a question mark in Crede for a question mark in Santana, two years of a lead off hitter who will probably price himself out of our range, and another expensive middle reliever who isn't going to work more than one inning at a time. I don't see how such a trade would be beneficial to us unless Santana turns into Cy Young or we win the WS in '08 because of this move. I'd bet against both.

chisox77
01-05-2008, 10:53 PM
Sun-Times beat writer Joe Cowley was on WSCR (with Hanley and Mulligan on Friday morning), discussing the Swisher trade. He also remarked that "within a week or two, there could be more activity," regarding the White Sox as KW is seeking to add more parts to the team.


:cool:

Tragg
01-05-2008, 11:00 PM
Um the deal is centered around Kendrick or it wont be made...
Yea, well okay.
What's the deal with Kendrick that gets everyone so excited?

Fenway
01-05-2008, 11:05 PM
Well it wasn't only WSI that was fooled

from the Tribune

Konerko no Angel, but don't rule it out (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080105chicagowhitesoxpaulkonerkoanaheimangels,1,70 77757.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines)
Updated:9:51 PM
White Sox general manager Ken Williams spent Saturday flatly denying a fast-spreading story that Paul Konerko was being traded to the Angels for infielder Howie Kendrick and pitcher Ervin Santana.

The rumor started in Saturday's Los Angeles Daily News, which said "a source has indicated that the Angels and Chicago White Sox are discussing" the trade. Then it quickly spread to Internet sites.

Sockinchisox
01-05-2008, 11:07 PM
Well it wasn't only WSI that was fooled

from the Tribune

Konerko no Angel, but don't rule it out (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080105chicagowhitesoxpaulkonerkoanaheimangels,1,70 77757.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines)
Updated:9:51 PM
White Sox general manager Ken Williams spent Saturday flatly denying a fast-spreading story that Paul Konerko was being traded to the Angels for infielder Howie Kendrick and pitcher Ervin Santana.

The rumor started in Saturday's Los Angeles Daily News, which said "a source has indicated that the Angels and Chicago White Sox are discussing" the trade. Then it quickly spread to Internet sites.

Ya, was just about to post that., Kenny says he hasn't spoken to anyone from the Angels since the Winter Meetings.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-05-2008, 11:09 PM
Well it wasn't only WSI that was fooled

from the TribuneThe rumor started in Saturday's Los Angeles Daily News, which said "a source has indicated that the Angels and Chicago White Sox are discussing" the trade. Then it quickly spread to Internet sites.

I might have known.

The originator of the rumor ----> :knue

He never liked us technogeeks.

:tongue:

DSpivack
01-05-2008, 11:11 PM
Well it wasn't only WSI that was fooled

from the Tribune

Konerko no Angel, but don't rule it out (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080105chicagowhitesoxpaulkonerkoanaheimangels,1,70 77757.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines)
Updated:9:51 PM
White Sox general manager Ken Williams spent Saturday flatly denying a fast-spreading story that Paul Konerko was being traded to the Angels for infielder Howie Kendrick and pitcher Ervin Santana.

The rumor started in Saturday's Los Angeles Daily News, which said "a source has indicated that the Angels and Chicago White Sox are discussing" the trade. Then it quickly spread to Internet sites.

What in the heck is the LA Daily News? Is that like the Washington Times or the Boston Herald?

Fenway
01-05-2008, 11:15 PM
What in the heck is the LA Daily News? Is that like the Washington Times or the Boston Herald?

It was actually owned by the Tribune before they bought the LA TIMES.

http://www.dailynews.com/breakingnews/ci_7887205

Looks like that is where the Daily Breeze got the story from

DSpivack
01-05-2008, 11:17 PM
It was actually owned by the Tribune before they bought the LA TIMES.

http://www.dailynews.com/breakingnews/ci_7887205

Looks like that is where the Daily Breeze got the story from

Used to have a few relatives out there. The Times isn't bad. Never heard of the Daily News. That they got the story from the 'Daily Breeze' sounds about right.

Optipessimism
01-05-2008, 11:26 PM
I'd prefer Willits too. Adenhart isn't going to happen. That's why I was realistic with Shields. Plus, I just like him.

I'm not a GM, but I'd guess that if there is any one rule that must be followed when trading a productive MLB player on an affordable contract with years remaining, and if you are not trading him for payroll reasons, that rule would be this: make sure you either get at least one veteran whose addition is so impactful that it not only absorbs the loss but also makes you better OR make sure you get some younger players/prospects who, if they turn out, project to be better.

Considering we're not going to pick up Lackey, Weaver, or Vladdy, we have to target at least one player that if nothing else has the potential to be better than Paulie. Adenhart, Kendrick, and Wood fit that bill the best IMO. Santana after the '05 or '06 seasons would have worked, but now he is a buy low candidate and a part.

The Sox do not HAVE to deal Paulie and should only do so if we think we can get someone who will help us more than he will. I have trouble believing that Willits, Figgins, Santana, or any middle reliever out there would not only replace but improve upon Paulie's contributions to the offense and defense, saving errors from our infielders.

We have MacDougal and Linebrink already; Shields would be nice, but that's already what, like $6 million spent on two guys who worked a combined 112.2 IP last year? It would be hard for a team with around a $100 million payroll to spend like $10 million on three one-inning bullpen guys when none of them are closers. Also, MacDougal sucked pretty much all of last year, Linebrink sucked in the second half, but Shields sucked in the second half last year too. He has a track record, but he's no more of a sure thing than what we already have.

IMO, if we're looking to add a lead-off man from the Angels we should look at Willits and offer up Crede. If we want Santana and the Angels are willing to give him away, offer up Broadway and a relief prospect. If we want to deal Konerko, offer him to the team with the best package of prospects, and then either keep those prospects or use them to go after a SP.

Fenway
01-05-2008, 11:26 PM
Used to have a few relatives out there. The Times isn't bad. Never heard of the Daily News. That they got the story from the 'Daily Breeze' sounds about right.

Reading WiKi the Tribune bought it in 1971 and sold it in 1986

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Daily_News

Optipessimism
01-05-2008, 11:28 PM
Best of all, Contreras moves down to a 5 spot and has to compete for it IF...IF... the left over $ (not used on Hunter's $75M) is still used to get an FA (or Burnett):


Burnett isn't a FA, but if the Jays are making him available I think he's worth a shot, provided he isn't too costly in terms of talent. He's an injury risk, but when he's healthy he can be downright nasty.

DSpivack
01-05-2008, 11:30 PM
Reading WiKi the Tribune bought it in 1971 and sold it in 1986

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Daily_News

Learn something new every day...They sold it to Jack Kent Cooke? That seems odd; then again, I only really know him from the Redskins.

Sockinchisox
01-05-2008, 11:32 PM
Burnett isn't a FA, but if the Jays are making him available I think he's worth a shot, provided he isn't too costly in terms of talent. He's an injury risk, but when he's healthy he can be downright nasty.

Burnett isn't worth it even then, he'll opt out at the end of this year anyway.

Fenway
01-05-2008, 11:36 PM
Learn something new every day...They sold it to Jack Kent Cooke? That seems odd; then again, I only really know him from the Redskins.

Cooke founded the LA Kings hockey team and was certain they would be a gold mine as he said there were 500,000 ex-Canadians in Southern California. He also owned the Lakers and the Fabulous Forum.

He later said "Now I know why they moved to LA, they all hate hockey"

SoxNation05
01-05-2008, 11:45 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080105chicagowhitesoxpaulkonerkoanaheimangels,1,70 77757.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

VenturaFan23
01-05-2008, 11:51 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080105chicagowhitesoxpaulkonerkoanaheimangels,1,70 77757.story?coll=cs-home-headlines


Oh well, on to the next rumor....

Optipessimism
01-05-2008, 11:51 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080105chicagowhitesoxpaulkonerkoanaheimangels,1,70 77757.story?coll=cs-home-headlines
And so the speculation ends...

sox1970
01-05-2008, 11:56 PM
Oh well, on to the next rumor....

I think something may have been discussed and it may be contingent on Crede's health status. If he's ready to go, then maybe it's a bigger trade than just PK.

The Sox are in control on this one. They certainly don't have to trade Konerko, so they can bide their time.

SoxNation05
01-05-2008, 11:58 PM
I think something may have been discussed and it may be contingent on Crede's health status. If he's ready to go, then maybe it's a bigger trade than just PK.

The Sox are in control on this one. They certainly don't have to trade Konerko, so they can bide their time.
What do you mean bigger than PK, PK and other players?