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voodoochile
01-03-2008, 05:49 PM
Keep it rocking...

First 503 posts: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=96298

SoxxoS
01-03-2008, 05:51 PM
More bright side (Although I think this Cockcroft guy from ESPN may still be drunk off eggnog or something -

Now 27, Swisher was a .250 hitter with a .799 OPS at McAfee in 2007, compared to .291/.921 on the road. For his career he's a .242/.808 hitter in Oakland, .260/.840 everywhere else, so it's clear the trade will mean nothing but good things for him. What'll be particularly interesting to see in the spring is where the White Sox slot him into their lineup.If he's a No. 2 hitter, as he was 50 times for the Athletics this past season, or even No. 3 (78 times), it's not unthinkable he could top out at 40 homers, 110 runs scored and 85-90 RBIs. Swisher's .361 lifetime on-base percentage -- .381 in 2007 -- backs up the notion he belongs in the top third of the order, mediocre speed on the basepaths or not. He'll be a noticeable upside play if all falls right for him in the spring, one who could rank as high as a top-20 mixed-league outfielder or top-eight first baseman, so watch closely.

HarryChappas
01-03-2008, 05:52 PM
Orioles wouldnt want Konerko, crede, and Danks for Bedard? I forgot Mora and Millar are awsome!

Foulke You
01-03-2008, 05:54 PM
Did anyone listen to the KW press conference online? I heard him say that he told Nick Swisher "be prepared to play a lot of CF next year". However, he later backed off that statement saying that Owens was still in the mix for CF and Swisher could be moved to LF if Quentin struggles. I'm as confused as ever as to where they are going to plug Swisher in to the outfield.:?:

Swish in CF scares me a bit because Dye is coming off of a knee injury and may not have as much range as he once had. If we're going to field a rotation with youngsters like Danks and Floyd, it would be nice if we didn't have an outfield that didn't yield tons of doubles and triples. However, on the plus side, there is far less outfield for Swisher to cover at our park compared to The Coliseum (375 gaps vs. 388 gaps in Oakland)

soxtalker
01-03-2008, 05:56 PM
My first reaction is that I'm not crazy about the trade -- maybe even horrified initially. But it reminds me a lot of the trade a few years ago with Seattle for Freddy Garcia. I was horrified at losing both Olivo and Reed. They both seemed like sure bets for the future of our team. Eventually, it turned out that Reed, who'd flirted with a .400 batting average in the minors the year before, never quite extended that to the majors. And I didn't realize that the pitchers didn't like working with Olivo. (I still don't understand why, but that does seem to have been the case.) So, Kenny was selling high. Maybe it is similar here. I hope so.

When I saw the trade, the first thing I thought about was the Garcia trade. Everyone **** themselves that day, fretting about giving up prospects.

I'll part with prospects any day of the week to get a proven player. I like Swisher, and I like the deal.

Good job, KW.

That wasn't quite the point I was making on the comparison with the Garcia trade. I know that has been popular view on WSI -- prospects aren't worth a proven player. Now, I never bought that argument. Every star was once a prospect; the difficult part is figuring out which prospects will become stars. KW has a lot of info that we don't, and he's making judgments on how well these players will do in the major leagues. In the Garcia trade, as I articulated in my previous post, he probably had good reason to believe that he was selling high on these specific players.

But, then again, maybe it is an issue of farm system vs. established players now. I remember an article a few years ago -- sometime before the 2005 season -- that argued that the White Sox and a couple of other teams were taking an interesting approach that ran counter to the (then) current thinking in baseball. Batting averages were way up, but KW seemed to be accumulating pitching and defense. Now, things are more complicated than that, but the game did change as they started focusing on steroids. And it seemed that KW assembled a team that was well-suited to that new competitive landscape. What strikes me now is that prospects are very highly valued by the vast majority of teams in baseball. Good established players cost so much that even the Yankees and Red Sox are hanging onto prospects. If most teams want to accumulate prospects, maybe KW figures they are overvalued in general now. I suppose that a telling sign will what he gets for Uribe and Crede.

Optipessimism
01-03-2008, 05:56 PM
I don't necessarily disagree with your point about pitching depth. But you know better to ever say we wouldnt see much complaining. I've been on this board long enough to know otherwise. We coulda traded that 3 some for Santana, and people would be complaining...

I don't agree with that. I know what you are saying, but I doubt anyone here would object trading minor league pitching for a legitimate ace.

Talent for talent this is a good trade for both sides, but I still think we need another move or two to address the pitching before we can call ourselves contenders. We need at least one more reliable SP and at least one reliable long man for out bullpen, not some minor leaguer.

Slow down, Eddie. There were some rumblings about Gio possibly coming up next season, but nothing was certain and Fautino was in ****ing A ball last season. I understand he is projected to be a #2 or #3, but when? 2010? This is a pretty big gamble simply because Kenny traded our best pitching prospects, but it's not like they were in the rotation now. There are definitely more trades to be made THIS season, why are you worried about what happens in 2-4 years? That is ridiculous.

Now with Quentin and Swisher, our outfield just got a lot younger and they are guys that get on base which is awesome.

What are you disagreeing with? Gio and Fautino are better than Jose, Danks, Floyd, Egbert, Broadway, Haeger, Masset, all of them. Again, it's not that we traded talent, it's that we traded our best minor league pitchers without picking up a proven MLB starter. Swisher is a good player and playing in the Cell with the kind of protection he's going to have in the lineup he has a chance to be a great player. Nothing wrong with that, but our lack of pitching was our biggest weakness both before this deal and after this deal.

This move doesn't help us enough in the present to justify trading the future. Hopefully KW has something up his sleeve to get us another proven SP and a proven long reliever.

Tragg
01-03-2008, 06:02 PM
We gave up 3 top prospects, including our 2 absolute top pitching prospects, for nick swisher. DLS is the best pitching prospect we've had in ages. Santana won't yield anyone's top prospect much less prospects. Williams, as always, paid a premium price for what he wanted....2nd time in 2 years he's traded the organization's top prospect. (few teams do that).

Even though Williams as usual got the lesser end of the deal, it makes sense; not a lot of point in keeping young players with Ozzie managing this team for the next several years with a fresh extension.

Swisher can hit. I hope Swisher can play CF.

itsnotrequired
01-03-2008, 06:03 PM
Williams, as always, paid a premium price for what he wanted.

Get real...

The Immigrant
01-03-2008, 06:06 PM
Santana won't yield anyone's top prospect much less prospects.

I'm speechless.

Optipessimism
01-03-2008, 06:07 PM
We gave up 3 top prospects, including our 2 absolute top pitching prospects, for nick swisher. DLS is the best pitching prospect we've had in ages. Santana won't yield anyone's top prospect much less prospects. Williams, as always, paid a premium price for what he wanted.

I hope Swisher can play CF.

I agree with this. *Edit: except the Santana part. Forgot about that... he'll get top prospects, but really NY and Boston have the advantage. They wouldn't be haggling over their top prospects as much as they are if other teams could afford Santana's next contract. If Santana could be had at a reasonable price in terms of dollars, more teams would be involved and Boston I doubt would have any trouble surrending both Ellsbury and Buccholz in a deal.

The biggest problem I have with trading DLS is the fact had we kept him, one year from now after dominating in a pitchers park in Birmingham he'd be a top pitching prospect in all of baseball and would be worth Swisher, or someone like him, by himself. I think Kenny sold too soon. Maybe there is something in DLS' delivery or something that the Sox don't like? Maybe they don't think he'll be able to cut down on his wildness? I get it that the Sox are desperate, but I don't think you can ever be too desperate to trade pitching talent like that early unless you are picking up one of the best players in all of baseball, i.e. Miguel Cabrera or one of those aces on the block.

Jjav829
01-03-2008, 06:10 PM
I don't know if this was posted in the other thread, but I'll post it anyway.

http://www.nickswisher.net/news_010308.htmlhttp://www.nickswisher.net/images/homebtn_trade.jpg

From Swisher's site. (http://www.nickswisher.net/)

He seems like a great guy. He has a foundation called Swish's Wishes.

Tragg
01-03-2008, 06:11 PM
Get real... What's your objection - that the top 2 pitching prospects and 3 of the top 5 prospects in the organiation isn't a premium price? Or perhaps you think that Podesdnik, Ritchey, Vasquez, Garcia I were acquired at bargain basement prices.

Frontman
01-03-2008, 06:12 PM
You know, if our "top" pitching prospects were so good that they were able to help turn around the 2007 backslide.

Oh wait. They weren't THAT good.

Get over it already. We're beginning to sound like Bears fans. Either our farm system is garbage or they are the next Cy Young.

If Gio goes on and wins 6 Cy Youngs, and leads the Athletics to the Series, then its a bad trade. But I'm not holding my breath on it happening.

Swisher is MLB ready now. For the past few weeks, all we've been saying around here is either go for it, or blow the whole darn thing up. Kenny is trying to go for it.

I'm not worried just yet.

chisox77
01-03-2008, 06:13 PM
Swisher brings energy to the White Sox.



:cool:

Jerome
01-03-2008, 06:13 PM
Hopefully Konerko and/or Crede are on the move for pitching / pitching prospects, right? That should balance everything out?

Tragg
01-03-2008, 06:14 PM
I agree with this. *Edit: except the Santana part. Forgot about that... he'll get top prospects, but really NY and Boston have the advantage. They wouldn't be haggling over their top prospects as much as they are if other teams could afford Santana's next contract. If Santana could be had at a reasonable price in terms of dollars, more teams would be involved and Boston I doubt would have any trouble surrending both Ellsbury and Buccholz in a deal. They're haggling - they aren't giving up all of their top prospects. But we'll see.
DLS is the best prospect since Chris Young and the best pitching prospect in ages. He's the key to the deal, obviously.
The other thing is that, not being a fan of the veteran middle reliever, I was hoping to see some young pitchers in the pen.

Daver
01-03-2008, 06:14 PM
What's your objection - that the top 2 pitching prospects and 3 of the top 5 prospects in the organiation isn't a premium price? Or perhaps you think that Podesdnik, Ritchey, Vasquez, Garcia I were acquired at bargain basement prices.

Garcia was.

So tell me, what exactly do you do with a corner outfielder that can't hit for power at all in the minors?

SoxxoS
01-03-2008, 06:14 PM
The thing that chaffs my ass is this is a real "big market" move - Trading cheap unknowns for proven talent.

The problem is, even with the high payroll, the Sox aren't all that "big market"

So wouldn't prospects mean THAT MUCH MORE to a team like the Sox, who can control guys for 4-5 years making zero money - Kind of like how SWISHER WAS MAKING 400,000 LAST YEAR!!!???

I would think KW would be all about spending money and signing draft guys that are "tough signs" b/c to me, that is being really "pound wise" and penny foolish - Boston and NY (two real big markets) have done that recently, and its really paid off in Chamberlain, Hughes, Ellsbury, Buchholz, Lester Etc.

Am I right?

SoxxoS
01-03-2008, 06:16 PM
Garcia was.

So tell me, what exactly do you do with a corner outfielder that can't hit for power at all in the minors?

Sweeney is Sean Burroughs until proven otherwise...actually less valuable than Sean Burroughs b/c at least Burroughs played third.

Sweeney is an after thought. He has a very small percentage of being a solid big leaguer...he has had A LOT of at bats now...the numbers begin to tell the story.

Daver
01-03-2008, 06:16 PM
The thing that chaffs my ass is this is a real "big market" move - Trading cheap unknowns for proven talent.

The problem is, even with the high payroll, the Sox aren't all that "big market"

So wouldn't prospects mean THAT MUCH MORE to a team like the Sox, who can control guys for 4-5 years making zero money - Kind of like how SWISHER WAS MAKING 400,000 LAST YEAR!!!???

I would think KW would be all about spending money and signing draft guys that are "tough signs" b/c to me, that is being really "pound wise" and penny foolish - Boston and NY (two real big markets) have done that recently, and its really paid off in Chamberlain, Hughes, Ellsbury, Buchholz, Lester Etc.

Am I right?

It doesn't make sense to do that if you are using your farm system to buy MLB proven players.

goon
01-03-2008, 06:17 PM
What are you disagreeing with? Gio and Fautino are better than Jose, Danks, Floyd, Egbert, Broadway, Haeger, Masset, all of them. Again, it's not that we traded talent, it's that we traded our best minor league pitchers without picking up a proven MLB starter. Swisher is a good player and playing in the Cell with the kind of protection he's going to have in the lineup he has a chance to be a great player. Nothing wrong with that, but our lack of pitching was our biggest weakness both before this deal and after this deal.

This move doesn't help us enough in the present to justify trading the future. Hopefully KW has something up his sleeve to get us another proven SP and a proven long reliever.


What don't you get? Fautino is in A ball, there is no way in hell he breaks camp with the Sox for probably another 3 years, so what are you complaining about? That we just traded away the future? I'm sure in the next two seasons the Sox can draft or trade for another unproven minor league pitcher with a high ceiling. Minor league pitchers with upside are dime a dozen, granted DLS was projected as a five-star prospect.

Also, it's pretty difficult for me to believe that either Gio or Fautino are better than Jose, Danks, Egbert or Broadway and I don't think you could really back that up in any kind of argument because neither of them have pitched in the majors. Sure, DLS has potential to be better than all of them, but potential isn't tangible and minor league numbers don't mean all that much when facing major league hitters.

This offseason keeps getting crazier, I'm holding off any kind of judgment until Williams is actually done dealing.

Tragg
01-03-2008, 06:17 PM
You know, if our "top" pitching prospects were so good that they were able to help turn around the 2007 backslide.

Oh wait. They weren't THAT good.
. That's just ridiculous.

KRS1
01-03-2008, 06:17 PM
Hopefully Konerko and/or Crede are on the move for pitching / pitching prospects, right? That should balance everything out?

Why, after making a move like this that says were looking to contend now, do we trade PK for spects?

Jjav829
01-03-2008, 06:17 PM
What's your objection - that the top 2 pitching prospects and 3 of the top 5 prospects in the organiation isn't a premium price? Or perhaps you think that Podesdnik, Ritchey, Vasquez, Garcia I were acquired at bargain basement prices.

Players we lost for Pods, Ritchie, Vazquez and Garcia:

Carlos Lee
Kip Wells
Josh Fogg
Sean Lowe
Orlando Hernandez
Luis Vizcaino
Chris Young
Jeremy Reed
Miguel Olivo
Mike Morse

That's a list of one All-star calibur player, Lee (who were knew what he was capable of, but parted with for financial reasons), one young player with a lot of potential, Chris Young, and a pile of crap. Who again are we missing here? The great Jeremy Reed? Josh Fogg?

JGarlandrules20
01-03-2008, 06:17 PM
What the heavens. Why would we trade the only good prospects we have in an all ready very weak farm system?

I'm usually pretty loyal to KW in a "wait and see what happens" kind of way but this trade makes me want to puke a little.

Swisher isn't the kind of player that would completely turn a team around from the train wreck of last season...

Tragg
01-03-2008, 06:22 PM
Garcia was.

So tell me, what exactly do you do with a corner outfielder that can't hit for power at all in the minors?
He had a bad year. You trade him. No objection to that part of it anyway.

Garcia was a rent when we acquired him. No bargain.

Sox need to trade veterans.

HarryChappas
01-03-2008, 06:22 PM
Why, after making a move like this that says were looking to contend now, do we trade PK for spects?

No part of a deal for Bedard!!!

FarWestChicago
01-03-2008, 06:24 PM
The great Jeremy Reed?Jeremy Reed is a lead pipe, lock, first ballot Hall of Famer.

Jerome
01-03-2008, 06:27 PM
Why, after making a move like this that says were looking to contend now, do we trade PK for spects?

Well if we are looking to contend now it's a big gamble to be depending on both Floyd and Danks, let alone Contreras in the rotation. Swisher and PK can both play first, seems to me like PK for pitching makes sense.

However I like the deal as is just for the fact that Swisher's versatility means the OF won't be so piss-poor next year.

Tragg
01-03-2008, 06:28 PM
Players we lost for Pods, Ritchie, Vazquez and Garcia:

Carlos Lee
Kip Wells
Josh Fogg
Sean Lowe
Orlando Hernandez
Luis Vizcaino
Chris Young
Jeremy Reed
Miguel Olivo
Mike Morse

That's a list of one All-star calibur player, Lee (who were knew what he was capable of, but parted with for financial reasons), one young player with a lot of potential, Chris Young, and a pile of crap. Who again are we missing here? The great Jeremy Reed? Josh Fogg?Only one of those players is out of baseball. Luis Vizcaino and El D could have made our 2006 and 2007 rosters and probably 2008. We might have made the playoffs in 2004 with Josh Fogg at 5th starter. (the only hesitation is Fogg - with a competent 5th starter, we assuredly would have made the playoffs). Wells would have made our staff most years as well.

It's the DLS part of this I don't like. Put in Broadway and Egbert and I'd be okay. DLS is special.

HarryChappas
01-03-2008, 06:29 PM
Why are so many of you people obsessed with minor league prospects!!! Do u want yo go back to the Schu days when he cost us a least one championship in th 80's because he refused to deal prospects... WE GOT A HELL OF A PLAYER!!!!! He will hit 40+ homers in our little field!! What does that type pf player cost in free agency? Even more than Rowand (overrated) or Hunter (overhill)

itsnotrequired
01-03-2008, 06:33 PM
Why are so many of you people obsessed with minor league prospects!!! Do u want yo go back to the Schu days when he cost us a least one championship in th 80's because he refused to deal prospects... WE GOT A HELL OF A PLAYER!!!!! He will hit 40+ homers in our little field!! What does that type pf player cost in free agency? Even more than Rowand (overrated) or Hunter (overhill)

the zombies roam the earth freely

itsnotrequired
01-03-2008, 06:37 PM
Players we lost for Pods, Ritchie, Vazquez and Garcia:

Carlos Lee
Kip Wells
Josh Fogg
Sean Lowe
Orlando Hernandez
Luis Vizcaino
Chris Young
Jeremy Reed
Miguel Olivo
Mike Morse

That's a list of one All-star calibur player, Lee (who were knew what he was capable of, but parted with for financial reasons), one young player with a lot of potential, Chris Young, and a pile of crap. Who again are we missing here? The great Jeremy Reed? Josh Fogg?

Don't forget the money freed up by trading Lee helped the Sox land several players that were integral to the 2005 team. At face value, Pods-Lee looked like the Sox got hosed but in a larger context, it makes sense.

soxwon
01-03-2008, 06:37 PM
Why are so many of you people obsessed with minor league prospects!!! Do u want yo go back to the Schu days when he cost us a least one championship in th 80's because he refused to deal prospects... WE GOT A HELL OF A PLAYER!!!!! He will hit 40+ homers in our little field!! What does that type pf player cost in free agency? Even more than Rowand (overrated) or Hunter (overhill)

Right on, Awesome trade everyone-Awesome.
Our dreams have been answered, KW is brilliant.

PeoriaSoxFan
01-03-2008, 06:42 PM
Overall, I am ok with this trade. Swisher is a very legit player and a much better A-Row in my view. With that said, I am sure that the two pitchers will probably be studs someday, since Billy Beane is quite skilled at finding these guys. It is interesting to note that Beane also got two former Sox prospects in the Haren trade to Arizona.

What I don't get is the love affair with DLS. I admit that I had barely ever heard of the guy before today. He is in A ball and I am quite certain that most posters in here have never seen him pitch and truly know very little about him. I hope that he isn't a Santana or Lirano in the making, but even if he is, it doesn't matter. He and Gio are gone and now in the A's system. I would also point out that about the only Sox minor leaguer pitchers of recent memory, who have amounted to star status are MB and Black Jack McDowell.

Also, what is this hurry to trade Konerko? We want to trade away one of our star players so we can potentially improve our minor leagues? We fill one hole to create another? I think this roster is pretty formidable right now and I didn't think that month ago. If we can add a legit starter, I think they are right back in this thing. Danks and Floyd scare the crap out of me at the bottom of the rotation, especially coupled with an uncertain Contreras.

Carolina Kenny
01-03-2008, 06:42 PM
Jeremy Reed is a lead pipe, lock, first ballot Hall of Famer.

Some of the posters here, live in and for the minor leagues. They naturally over rate our minor league players because they are their "babies." They watch and pull for these players to succeed, and when one does that is their ultimate baseball reward. The sad fact is that the minor leauges exist for the benefit of the Big Club. Whenever you get proven major leauge talent for low minor league talent you MUST make that move.

Swisher is a bargin at his price, he is a young multi-position player that can play CF, if Owens does not step it up. He has above average offense skills that have a good chance of improving once he is out of Oakland.

We could and will not go in to next year with the base clogging Three of
Thome/Konerko/Dye. We could not go in to next year with AJ batting fourth or fifth against RH pitching.

Subtract Ernstad and add Swisher. YES!!

This was a deal Way To Good To Pass Up. And I love it.

WhiteSox5187
01-03-2008, 06:42 PM
Sweeney is Sean Burroughs until proven otherwise...actually less valuable than Sean Burroughs b/c at least Burroughs played third.

Sweeney is an after thought. He has a very small percentage of being a solid big leaguer...he has had A LOT of at bats now...the numbers begin to tell the story.
He's had 80 AB in the big leagues...look there are questions about the kid's power, and those are legit. But I dont' think I'm quite ready to give up on a guy who has a lot of speed, can hit for average, oh and IS TWENTY TWO YEARS OLD!

Now, as for the trade, I think that Rowand is a better CFer than Swisher. I think though that Swisher certainly is an improvement at CF. He's a good hitter and hits a lot better on the road, so I think a move away from the massive Oakland Collesium should help. And I have to say, he sounds like a hell of a guy. My problem here is that he's not a leadoff guy, so we still need one of those, he doesn't have really good speed and doesn't steal a whole lot of bases so we could use someone like that in the line up (some one who gets on a lot too), he's not a GREAT CF, and this means that Danks and Floyd REALLY have to step up and if they don't, we're looking to guys like Hagar, Broadway, and Massett...our pitching, if it wasn't before, is now paper thin.

Tragg
01-03-2008, 06:45 PM
Swisher is not a CF. Sure he can play it in a pinch. We need a real CF who can play D, especially with our 4th and 5th starters.
We now have 3 corner outfielders, 2 SS and 2 3B.

I'll await to see the return that we get for Crede, Uribe,et al (he was signed for 4.5 million; that means Williams saw value) et al. I can hear it now: "NO VALUE". Never is, is there?

Swisher is a good hitter. He isn't a great hitter or great player. Maybe he'll become one.

Daver
01-03-2008, 06:47 PM
Swisher is not a CF. Sure he can play it in a pinch. We need a real CF who can play D, especially with our 4th and 5th starters.
We now have 3 corner outfielders, 2 SS and 2 3B.

I'll await to see the return that we get for Crede, Uribe (he was signed for 4.5 million; that means Williams saw value) et al. I can hear it now: "NO VALUE". Never is, is there?

First you say they need defense, then you want to trade the best glove on the team in Crede.

And Swisher is a huge improvement over Owens in center.

ShoelessJoeS
01-03-2008, 06:48 PM
I heard Swisher's a real grinder :redneck

chisox77
01-03-2008, 06:48 PM
A quote from Swisher when discussing the trade that sent him to the White Sox:

"I hope they have a lot of padding on the walls over there in Chicago."

Enough said.



:cool:

voodoochile
01-03-2008, 06:49 PM
Swisher is not a CF. Sure he can play it in a pinch. We need a real CF who can play D, especially with our 4th and 5th starters.
We now have 3 corner outfielders, 2 SS and 2 3B.

I'll await to see the return that we get for Crede, Uribe,et al (he was signed for 4.5 million; that means Williams saw value) et al. I can hear it now: "NO VALUE". Never is, is there?

Swisher is a good hitter. He isn't a great hitter or great player. Maybe he'll become one.

He started 68 games there last year or something. 211 AB while playing CF just last season and that was in a MUCH bigger outfield. He'll be fine...

sox1970
01-03-2008, 06:49 PM
The players the Sox gave up aren't even an issue. The bottom line is the Sox got a proven major league player under contract for the next 4-5 years.

Sweeney needs to play another full year at AAA, and he can't stay on the field anyway.

Gio was the 3rd lefty behind Buehrle and Danks. I don't think the Sox ever planned to have three lefties in the rotation, and Poreda seems to be a legit prospect for down the line.

De Los Santos--yes, scouts love him, but who cares? He's 22 this year and hasn't pitched above low A ball. Unless he's the next Pedro Martinez, I wouldn't worry about him too much.

chisoxfan4life
01-03-2008, 06:49 PM
I think some of you need to an economics course and discover what the true meaning of a trade is. In order for a trade to occur, both sides need to be benefitted, especially when you are dealing with Billy Beane. We got a proven, switch-hitting major league outfielder who was beloved in Oakland for three unproven prospects. Last year was basically as bad as our team could have possibly played, we still have plenty of talent to compete with the division. Look at the Rockies, D-Backs, and many other teams that did very well last year with much less talent (I'm not talking about potential, I'm talking about proven MLB talent) than the Cubs, Mets, Yankees, ect and advanced further in the playoffs.

I used to be a frequent visitor to several White Sox message boards, but the ubiquitous pessimism is a little too overwhelming and makes me question whether I want to associate myself with such a whiny group of people.

Pods4455
01-03-2008, 06:51 PM
Overall, I am ok with this trade. Swisher is a very legit player and a much better A-Row in my view. With that said, I am sure that the two pitchers will probably be studs someday, since Billy Beane is quite skilled at finding these guys. It is interesting to note that Beane also got two former Sox prospects in the Haren trade to Arizona.

What I don't get is the love affair with DLS. I admit that I had barely ever heard of the guy before today. He is in A ball and I am quite certain that most posters in here have never seen him pitch and truly know very little about him. I hope that he isn't a Santana or Lirano in the making, but even if he is, it doesn't matter. He and Gio are gone and now in the A's system. I would also point out that about the only Sox minor leaguer pitchers of recent memory, who have amounted to star status are MB and Black Jack McDowell.

Also, what is this hurry to trade Konerko? We want to trade away one of our star players so we can potentially improve our minor leagues? We fill one hole to create another? I think this roster is pretty formidable right now and I didn't think that month ago. If we can add a legit starter, I think they are right back in this thing. Danks and Floyd scare the crap out of me at the bottom of the rotation, especially coupled with an uncertain Contreras.


finally.. someone with a little bit of sense. And from my hometown too... gee:smile:

Im frankly tired (and i admit, ive been on this forum since like.. 4PM.. but only because ive been in bed, sick with the flu and pregnant for the last 2 days and am excited to FINALLY have something to bide my time doing... haha) of hearing people ***** and moan about what we did and didnt get out of this trade. It's been like- what? 4 hours now? Enough time for Nick Swisher to photoshop himself into a Sox uniform for the main page of his website... let's start looking at the positive and focusing on whats going to hppen this season. We finally have a decent player on our roster who will be able to fill our outfield.. an outfield that was, previously, only 33% complete. The guys we traded away are already in the A's organization now, so unless one of them has been proclaimed by God himself to be the next Cy Young (which- i remind you- still wont help the A's THIS season.. RIGHT NOW), then let's start focusing on what's GOOD about this trade.

I guess to be brief

no more debbie downers =)

HarryChappas
01-03-2008, 06:52 PM
sorry I meant schu in the 90's

Tragg
01-03-2008, 06:53 PM
First you say they need defense, then you want to trade the best glove on the team in Crede.

And Swisher is a huge improvement over Owens in center.
I don't want to trade Crede and never advocated it. I am assuming that they will.
Improvement over Owens - yea, okay, no argument...
Here's another one - what makes Swisher a good hitter is his taking walks - how's that going to fly with a Guillen managed team?
You like this deal?

PaleHoseGeorge
01-03-2008, 06:53 PM
Something happen around here, today?

:wink:

Pods4455
01-03-2008, 06:53 PM
De Los Santos--yes, scouts love him, but who cares? He's 22 this year and hasn't pitched above low A ball. Unless he's the next Pedro Martinez, I wouldn't worry about him too much.


Reminds me of a certain ex-boyfriend of mine, who is also 22 and has never made it out of single A ball, despite having the 5th highest signing bonus in Cubs history.


ahem.


Maybe DLS is on roids like he was..


haha. jk.

Daver
01-03-2008, 06:55 PM
I don't want to trade Crede and never advocated it. I am assuming that they will.
Improvement over Owens - yea, okay, no argument...
Here's another one - what makes Swisher a good hitter is his taking walks - how's that going to fly with a Guillen managed team?
You like this deal?

Bat him leadoff, it eliminates the Ozzie factor.

Yes I think the Sox made a very good trade here.

WizardsofOzzie
01-03-2008, 06:56 PM
Some of the posters here, live in and for the minor leagues. They naturally over rate our minor league players because they are their "babies." They watch and pull for these players to succeed, and when one does that is their ultimate baseball reward. The sad fact is that the minor leauges exist for the benefit of the Big Club. Whenever you get proven major leauge talent for low minor league talent you MUST make that move.

Swisher is a bargin at his price, he is a young multi-position player that can play CF, if Owens does not step it up. He has above average offense skills that have a good chance of improving once he is out of Oakland.

We could and will not go in to next year with the base clogging Three of
Thome/Konerko/Dye. We could not go in to next year with AJ batting fourth or fifth against RH pitching.

Subtract Ernstad and add Swisher. YES!!

This was a deal Way To Good To Pass Up. And I love it.

Who's this Ernstad? Is he related to this guy?

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/7747/ernestscaredstupidrm0.jpg

chisox77
01-03-2008, 06:57 PM
Nick Swisher channels Aaron Rowand with the way he plays. He even kind of looks like him. He wore #33 (with the A's). This is scary.


:cool:

ChiSox65
01-03-2008, 06:57 PM
This guy will have better stats next year than Hunter, Rowand and Fukedome. He is signed for a few years at a great price and will play decent D while bringing a "Rowand like" attitude to the clubhouse.

Look at J. Dye stats in his last year in Oakland and they are almost identical to Swishers. He will hit well in the Cell.......(he hit .500 last year in the Cell) One of the pitchers we gave may pan out but thats the price you have to pay.

Cheers.:gulp:

HarryChappas
01-03-2008, 07:01 PM
This guy will have better stats next year than Hunter, Rowand and Fukedome. He is signed for a few years at a great price and will play decent D while bringing a "Rowand like" attitude to the clubhouse.

Look at J. Dye stats in his last year in Oakland and they are almost identical to Swishers. He will hit well in the Cell.......(he hit .500 last year in the Cell) One of the pitchers we gave may pan out but thats the price you have to pay.

Cheers.:gulp:
I smart man!! I will have one too... People please quit being whining Biiiitchess!!! The A's fans hate this trade enough said!!!

soxfan21
01-03-2008, 07:01 PM
I'm just waiting for Swisher Sweet give-a-way day.

Sockinchisox
01-03-2008, 07:02 PM
Could it be? Keith Law praising the White Sox for making this trade?

Swisher is a borderline star offensive player. He has a great approach and runs very deep counts and has above-average home run power that has been dampened somewhat by his home field.....

He's 27 years old and entering his prime years, and he's under control for four years plus an option (his age 27-30 seasons) at very favorable salaries. The White Sox are immediately three to four wins better, perhaps more, as a result of making this deal.

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3179940&name=law_keith&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fesp n%2fblog%2findex%3fentryID%3d3179940%26name%3dlaw_ keith

Frontman
01-03-2008, 07:03 PM
That's just ridiculous.

That's how you guys are sounding.

"OH my Freakin' God!!!! Gio's gone!!!!! Kenny should be fired!!!!! Gio was the best pitching prospect we had!!!!!!!"

Ok, and if he was THAT good, why didn't he see play when the season was in the tank?

balke
01-03-2008, 07:06 PM
So the Sox got a way cheap version of Aaron Rowand, who is under contract for the same amount of time, and who is younger. He has more power and is on base more, and will hit #2 rather than 6 or 7 like Rowand would've.


I like the move. I didn't want Rowand back, I've seen that show before. It'll be nice to see someone new and good at the games.

Tragg
01-03-2008, 07:10 PM
That's how you guys are sounding.

"OH my Freakin' God!!!! Gio's gone!!!!! Kenny should be fired!!!!! Gio was the best pitching prospect we had!!!!!!!"

Ok, and if he was THAT good, why didn't he see play when the season was in the tank?
Because Ozzie Guillen is the manager - that is why. He will play whatever veteran he had before young players. My grandmother could have outpitched Myers last year; but he continued to pitch. Why did Erstad continue to play every day? Same reason.
DLS was in A ball.

To suggest Gio and DLS are worthless because they didn't pitch last year is ridiculous.
DLS could have been special - you need to hold onto him. Gio is expendable.

Noneck
01-03-2008, 07:11 PM
Does Swisher have a RF arm?

Frontman
01-03-2008, 07:12 PM
Because Ozzie Guillen is the manager - that is why. He will play whatever veteran he had before young players. My grandmother could have outpitched Myers last year; but he continued to pitch. Why did Erstad continue to play every day? Same reason.
DLS was in A ball.

To suggest Gio and DLS are worthless because they didn't pitch last year is ridiculous.

Yep, because Ozzie played those wiley old veterans Richar, Owens, and Fields............

munchman33
01-03-2008, 07:12 PM
Every star was once a prospect; the difficult part is figuring out which prospects will become stars.

Fair enough. Go out there and find me one scout that says that DLS wasn't going to become a star in the league. Just one. That's all I ask. Because is you do find one, I guarantee he doesn't have a paying job.

DLS is a top notch talent with some of the best stuff I've ever seen. The question isn't whether or not he'll be a star, it's when he'll be a star. With his stuff, the only thing between him and multiple Cy Young quality years is a career altering injury. Because stuff wise, he'd probably survive in the league now. The only thing he needs is polish.

I don't dislike Swisher. I'm coming around on the effect he could have on this team long term (I still think we're third at best talent-wise). But, honestly, there's only about five players league wide I'd have traded DLS for.

Optipessimism
01-03-2008, 07:15 PM
What don't you get? Fautino is in A ball, there is no way in hell he breaks camp with the Sox for probably another 3 years, so what are you complaining about? That we just traded away the future? I'm sure in the next two seasons the Sox can draft or trade for another unproven minor league pitcher with a high ceiling. Minor league pitchers with upside are dime a dozen, granted DLS was projected as a five-star prospect.

We traded the future for the present when we don't have the pitching to compete in the present unless something totally crazy happens where all our guys pitch like studs when no one expects it. And while that is theoretically possible, I wouldn't bet on any of Contreras-Danks-Floyd putting up ERAs in the low 4's or below next year. I expect them all to be over 5 and I doubt any of them win more than 12 games.

The Sox will always have electric arms in their organization, but finding starters with electric arms who can throw strikes with several pitches and dominate the competition is not easy. These guys are not a dime a dozen as you say, not even close.

Also, it's pretty difficult for me to believe that either Gio or Fautino are better than Jose, Danks, Egbert or Broadway and I don't think you could really back that up in any kind of argument because neither of them have pitched in the majors. Sure, DLS has potential to be better than all of them, but potential isn't tangible and minor league numbers don't mean all that much when facing major league hitters.

This offseason keeps getting crazier, I'm holding off any kind of judgment until Williams is actually done dealing.

Gio and DLS just in trade value alone is worth more than the actual value of any of those other players mentioned, because the trade value of Gio and DLS can get you pitchers who are better than any of those other players. Don't get me wrong, I like Danks and Egbert, and I think Broadway has a future as at least a fifth starter, but our pitching staff isn't very good right now, and unless we make another move for a pitcher, it looks a lot worse in the future too.

I don't hate this deal because I think Swisher is going to be a stud here, but I would be a lot happier if we had gotten a starter back, and I don't think Swisher alone is going to put us over the top. If the Sox make a deal for another veteran SP who doesn't suck, then I'll be happy with this deal.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-03-2008, 07:15 PM
I don't dislike Swisher. I'm coming around on the effect he could have on this team long term (I still think we're third at best talent-wise). But, honestly, there's only about five players league wide I'd have traded DLS for.

Holy ****, he's even better than Jeremy Reed!!!

:wink:

SoxSpeed22
01-03-2008, 07:15 PM
Swisher can play CF, but has had injury problems. The Sox had major on-base problems for a long time, even in their championship year. I still don't know who's gonna lead off, but this solves some things in the lineup and makes them more versatile to play the kind of ball Ozzie wants. Even though they had to give up, essentially what's left of their farm system, it should be a good trade.
Once again, you can't make an omelette without uh, destroying a forest, or something.

Daver
01-03-2008, 07:16 PM
Holy ****, he's even better than Jeremy Reed!!!

:wink:

No way.


There is no such thing as a pitcher that is can't miss, unless their arm and shoulder is bionic.

Lukin13
01-03-2008, 07:17 PM
The more I thought about it THIS DEAL WAS VERY SOLID FOR THE SOX.

While scanning current contracts for proven, veteran, position players.... Nick Swisher is definitely in the top ten values in baseball; maybe even top five.

If the MLB blew the entire league up and had a fantasy draft, where you drafted all players with their current contract status; Swisher would be the second WSox player taken behind Fields. So, while he might not be in the top ten players in baseball obviously, he is definitely worth as much in a trade as just about anyone.

He is as valuable as they come, and I for one do not think KW overpaid.

I do have a few points:

1. I don't think he is even an average centerfielder, I am really hoping he plays LF or 1B.

2. He is much better suited as a #3 hitter as opposed to a #2. Swisher strikes out a bit too much to bat second and the sox have Cabrera, who is arguably the most "typical" second hitter in the league so he should bat there for the Sox in '08.

3. Swisher is only 27, which is two years older than Josh Fields. Swisher has not even entered his home run hitting prime which historically has been 30-33.

Tragg
01-03-2008, 07:17 PM
Yep, because Ozzie played those wiley old veterans Richar, Owens, and Fields............
He was forced into that. Iguchi was gone, Erstad and Crede were injured.
Given the choice, he played Mack and Erstad. He pitched Bukvich and Myers.
Cintron was his backup DH.
you should have put owens on your list. Him, Ozzie played - somewhat out of default, but somewhat not.

Frontman
01-03-2008, 07:18 PM
Holy ****, he's even better than Jeremy Reed!!!

:wink:

DLS must of been Cy Young re-born. Darn it all, there is absolutely no hope whatsoever to White Sox baseball moving forward.

The moving of DLS will be the Southside's counterpart to the Lou Brock deal!!

:rolleyes:

munchman33
01-03-2008, 07:21 PM
If the MLB blew the entire league up and had a fantasy draft

I stopped reading after this. This is the real world of MLB, where wins and losses are the only thing that matters. As it stands, I believe the White Sox will have a hard time getting wins consistently over the next five years without any decent arms on the horizon. I might be wrong. But I doubt it. We don't exactly have a history of throwing money at free agent arms.

Tragg
01-03-2008, 07:21 PM
The more I thought about it THIS DEAL WAS VERY SOLID FOR THE SOX.

While scanning current contracts for proven, veteran, position players.... Nick Swisher is definitely in the top ten values in baseball; maybe even top five.
Can you tell me when it expires? Thanks.

Frontman
01-03-2008, 07:21 PM
He was forced into that. Iguchi was gone, Erstad and Crede were injured.
Given the choice, he played Mack and Erstad. He pitched Bukvich and Myers.
Cintron was his backup DH.
you should have put owens on your list. Him, Ozzie played - somewhat out of default, but somewhat not.

Boy, there must of been TWO Erstad's on the team, the invisible one and the one WHO SAT ON THE BENCH FOR THE FINAL WEEKS OF THE SEASON KEEPING PODSEDNIK COMPANY!!!!

And I could of sworn that it was Ehrn Wasserman and Boone Logan coming in relief, not Ehrn Bukvich and Boone Myers. I better get my eyes checked.

You find a way to always make every move the Sox make into an anti-Ozzie campaign. It's commendable.

munchman33
01-03-2008, 07:22 PM
DLS must of been Cy Young re-born. Darn it all, there is absolutely no hope whatsoever to White Sox baseball moving forward.

The moving of DLS will be the Southside's counterpart to the Lou Brock deal!!

:rolleyes:

Jest all you want. The guy reminds me a lot of a young Pedro Martinez, and not just because of his body build.

Frontman
01-03-2008, 07:23 PM
Jest all you want. The guy reminds me a lot of a young Pedro Martinez, and not just because of his body build.

Don't tell me. You're the caller to the Boers and Bernstein show who said Kyle Orton reminded you of a young Johnny Unitas.......

HarryChappas
01-03-2008, 07:28 PM
Jest all you want. The guy reminds me a lot of a young Pedro Martinez, and not just because of his body build.

:?::?::?::?::?::?::?::?: Dude!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

munchman33
01-03-2008, 07:29 PM
Don't tell me. You're the caller to the Boers and Bernstein show who said Kyle Orton reminded you of a young Johnny Unitas.......

If you ask around, I'm actually the guy who hates Orton for no reason. :cool:

munchman33
01-03-2008, 07:30 PM
:?::?::?::?::?::?::?::?: Dude!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not the first person to make that comparison, and I'm certainly less qualified than those who have come to that assessment.

Jjav829
01-03-2008, 07:31 PM
I don't dislike Swisher. I'm coming around on the effect he could have on this team long term (I still think we're third at best talent-wise). But, honestly, there's only about five players league wide I'd have traded DLS for.

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Holy ****. We just traded away the next Pedro Martinez. Only he hasn't even thrown a pitch above single-A ball.

Carolina Kenny
01-03-2008, 07:31 PM
Jest all you want. The guy reminds me a lot of a young Pedro Martinez, and not just because of his body build.

And Nyls Nyman reminded me of a young Al Kaline.

ChiSoxIn06
01-03-2008, 07:31 PM
i have no problem with this deal...because gio and DLS are both PROSPECTS...not proven MLB starters...if they have big careers down the line then you can ***** and moan about it but for now i this is a solid deal for the sox...the sox still have egbert, broadway among others that could very well spell danks or floyd if they falter...also remember that crede or fields still will be dealt so kenny might use that to pick up some more pitching...until then lets all wait and see before we are ready to destroy kenny williams.

HarryChappas
01-03-2008, 07:31 PM
I'm not the first person to make that comparison, and I'm certainly less qualified than those who have come to that assessment.

Melido Perez forkball

Frater Perdurabo
01-03-2008, 07:33 PM
Daver suggested (I think sincerely) batting Swisher leadoff. This makes sense in a lineup clearly designed to get guys on base for the thumpers.

Swisher's good for a .380 OBP, plus some stick (35 doubles, 25 homers). Cabrera often would move Swisher from first to third, plus has a decent .345 OBP himself. Thome's good for a .410 OBP, 20 doubles and 35 homers. That sets the table nicely for Paulie, Dye, Fields and Quentin; with AJ and Richar 8-9. That's an Earl Weaver special with lots of three-run homers.

At this point (and I know it's long been a cliché for me to suggest this), I'd still like to deal Paulie for Figgins and Shields. That gets sick speed with OBP at the top, and allows the switch-hitting Swisher to bat fifth:

Figgins CF, Cabrera SS, Thome DH, Dye LF, Swisher 1B, Fields 3B, Quentin RF, AJ C, Richar 2B

Now there's a lineup with a nice mix of speed, OBP and power; plus a wicked late inning bullpen trifecta (Linebrink/Shields in the 7th & 8th, then Jenks in the 9th); with a crapload of cash to plow into the rotation and/or make a big midseason deal.

HarryChappas
01-03-2008, 07:36 PM
Daver suggested (I think sincerely) batting Swisher leadoff. This makes sense in a lineup clearly designed to get guys on base for the thumpers.

Swisher's good for a .380 OBP, plus some stick (35 doubles, 25 homers). Cabrera often would move Swisher from first to third, plus has a decent .345 OBP himself. Thome's good for a .410 OBP, 20 doubles and 35 homers. That sets the table nicely for Paulie, Dye, Fields and Quentin; with AJ and Richar 8-9. That's an Earl Weaver special with lots of three-run homers.

At this point (and I know it's long been a cliché for me to suggest this), I'd still like to deal Paulie for Figgins and Shields. That gets sick speed with OBP at the top, and allows the switch-hitting Swisher to bat fifth:

Figgins CF, Cabrera SS, Thome DH, Dye LF, Swisher 1B, Fields 3B, Quentin RF, AJ C, Richar 2B

Now there's a lineup with a nice mix of speed, OBP and power; plus a wicked late inning bullpen trifecta (Linebrink/Shields in the 7th & 8th, then Jenks in the 9th); with a crapload of cash to plow into the rotation and/or make a big midseason deal.

Wilits or Roberts will bat leadoff-Kenny knows he must get a true leadoff man

Jjav829
01-03-2008, 07:36 PM
Only one of those players is out of baseball. Luis Vizcaino and El D could have made our 2006 and 2007 rosters and probably 2008. We might have made the playoffs in 2004 with Josh Fogg at 5th starter. (the only hesitation is Fogg - with a competent 5th starter, we assuredly would have made the playoffs). Wells would have made our staff most years as well.

It's the DLS part of this I don't like. Put in Broadway and Egbert and I'd be okay. DLS is special.

Josh Fogg was totally the missing piece to out 2004 team.

Only one of El Duque or Vazquez could have been on our 06, 07 and 08 team. You pick. I think it's fairly easy.

These are dime a dozen players. There is absolutely no one, sans possibly Chris Young, from that list that Sox fans should be fretting over losing. Even Lee, while a good player, isn't worth worrying about since his departure helped bring in several key players to the only Sox World Series championship any of us has ever seen.

No prospect at single-A ball is special. You know who is special? Albert Pujols. Johan Santana. Jake Peavy. Alex Rodriguez. Those are special players. De Los Santos is a young player with a high upside, who may or may not ever live up to that upside based on many factors.

munchman33
01-03-2008, 07:38 PM
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Holy ****. We just traded away the next Pedro Martinez. Only he hasn't even thrown a pitch above single-A ball.

It isn't where he's throwing, it's what he's throwing. He's got a severely sinking fastball that he throws 94-95, and keeps its velocity late in games. He's got a wicked slurve to boot, that's probably a better pitch than his fastball. He's working on a change, and has mixed it in well. Not to mention, his control is outstanding.

Yeah, I'm sure stuff and poise like that come fairly often.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-03-2008, 07:39 PM
And Nyls Nyman reminded me of a young Al Kaline.

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2006/may/23/bentsen_quayle200.jpg
"I knew Al Kaline. Al Kaline is a friend of mine. Nyls Nyman is no Al Kaline!!!"

:bandance:

Frontman
01-03-2008, 07:40 PM
No prospect at single-A ball is special. You know who is special? Albert Pujols. Johan Santana. Jake Peavy. Alex Rodriguez. Those are special players. De Los Santos is a young player with a high upside, who may or may not ever live up to that upside based on many factors.

Quoted for truth. You mean to tell me De Los Santos isn't Johan Santana?

To read commentary here, you'd think it was common knowledge the DLS is going to win 300 games, have a career ERA of 2.0, and lead a rotation for 10+ years of post-season appearances.

Frontman
01-03-2008, 07:43 PM
It isn't where he's throwing, it's what he's throwing. He's got a severely sinking fastball that he throws 94-95, and keeps its velocity late in games. He's got a wicked slurve to boot, that's probably a better pitch than his fastball. He's working on a change, and has mixed it in well. Not to mention, his control is outstanding.

Yeah, I'm sure stuff and poise like that come fairly often.

It absolutely matters where he throws those outstanding pitches. Some players on a Single A squad are incredible; until they face batters like, oh I don't know, an Alex Rodriquez.

Just because his stuff hasn't been hit in Single A doesn't mean he won't get lit up like a Christmas tree in the majors.

Or simply put, there's a reason he hasn't advanced to AA or AAA yet.

munchman33
01-03-2008, 07:48 PM
It absolutely matters where he throws those outstanding pitches. Some players on a Single A squad are incredible; until they face batters like, oh I don't know, an Alex Rodriquez.

Just because his stuff hasn't been hit in Single A doesn't mean he won't get lit up like a Christmas tree in the majors.

Or simply put, there's a reason he hasn't advanced to AA or AAA yet.

I couldn't disagree more. I don't care if he's throwing to the backside of a barn. My eyes don't lie to me. Watching him pitch...we don't have anyone on our staff close to his stuff. He's going to get major leaguers out with extreme consistency. It's only a matter of when it happens.

SoxSpeed22
01-03-2008, 07:48 PM
Actually, Swisher has been relatively healthy, just as long as he can play center.

Tragg
01-03-2008, 07:51 PM
Boy, there must of been TWO Erstad's on the team, the invisible one and the one WHO SAT ON THE BENCH FOR THE FINAL WEEKS OF THE SEASON KEEPING PODSEDNIK COMPANY!!!!

And I could of sworn that it was Ehrn Wasserman and Boone Logan coming in relief, not Ehrn Bukvich and Boone Myers. I better get my eyes checked.

You find a way to always make every move the Sox make into an anti-Ozzie campaign. It's commendable.
Your sarcasm is seering and your insults impressive, tough guy. But it was you who said that Gio and DLS were of no value because they didn't pitch in September.
Now that that's out of the way, let's look at the veracity of the notion that Erstad, Myers and Bukvich rode the bench in September:

Myers pitched on the September 7,8,10,14,15, 18,21,23,25, and 30
Bukvich pitched on August 24,25,26,29,30, September 1,5,6,10,16 - yes, he took a seat for the last 2 weeks.
They must have moved the bench to the field, because Erstad played on September 10, 12, 16,17,18,21,22,23,28,29

Carolina Kenny
01-03-2008, 07:52 PM
http://media.npr.org/news/images/2006/may/23/bentsen_quayle200.jpg
"I knew Al Kaline. Al Kaline is a friend of mine. Nyls Nyman is no Al Kaline!!!"

:bandance:

I actually thought Nyls Nyman was going to be. Of course I also thought Melido Perez was going to win 15-18 games/year and that Kevin Bell and
Thad Bosley were "can't miss".

There is no such thing as a can't miss A ball prospect. There is only speculation below the Big Club. Swisher is not speculation.He is a proven commodity young enough to still have upside. That is how you build a winner.

This deal gives me a great deal of optimism for 2008 and I Love It.

doublem23
01-03-2008, 07:53 PM
I don't see how Fields could be penciled for Charlotte in January after hitting 23 homers in a short season. He's ready and he needs to play. We'll see what other moves are in store--Konerko, Dye. This trade necessitates other ones I'd imagine.

I agree, so I think this deal means the end of the Joe Crede era.

Lukin13
01-03-2008, 07:53 PM
I stopped reading after this. This is the real world of MLB, where wins and losses are the only thing that matters.


My message was typed in the "real world" where it is ok to use hypothetical examples to help prove a point. Nick Swisher has crazy value with his age and current contract status.

Domeshot17
01-03-2008, 07:56 PM
After hearing Kenny on CTL, This also popped into my mind.

The reason we may have overpaid is because Swisher was not a guy who was available. Much like we value PK, the only way to get him is to overpay, to make us not say no. That was the guy Kenny said If I am going to potentially overpay, then this is the guy its for.

Im still excited. I know its a potentially tough loss, but if Gio or DLS ever go down with an arm injury this trade is big time in favor of us.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-03-2008, 07:57 PM
There is no such thing as a can't miss A ball prospect. There is only speculation below the Big Club. Swisher is not speculation.He is a proven commodity young enough to still have upside. That is how you build a winner.

Don't be silly. Of course there are can't miss A-ball prospects. Especially pitchers! How do I know this? Because I spent a large portion of my life supporting a baseball team that went 88 years selling this sort of thinking to its fan base.

Some of them still believe it, too.
:wink:

WSox597
01-03-2008, 08:00 PM
At this point (and I know it's long been a cliché for me to suggest this), I'd still like to deal Paulie for Figgins and Shields.


I've wanted to ask you for some time about your apparent dislike for Konerko. Did the guy kill your dog or something? I'm just curious, since you really have a hardon for the guy.

Every single trade thread, you pop up with another Konerko trade scenario. You might need a hobby. Or decaf. Or something.

The man has hit over 40 homeruns several times. Something only a couple other players have done while members of the White Sox. Thomas, and Mr. Personality himself, Belle.

Give the man some slack already. He's a perfectly acceptable first baseman, and he's given the team a home-town discount because he wanted to play here. Why trade such a player? For more prospects?

A prospect and a dollar won't even get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

Taliesinrk
01-03-2008, 08:03 PM
This may be the longest offseason ever. Unbelievable!

Carolina Kenny
01-03-2008, 08:04 PM
Don't be silly. Of course there are can't miss A-ball prospects. Especially pitchers! How do I know this? Because I spent a large portion of my life supporting a baseball team that went 88 years selling this sort of thinking to its fan base.

Some of them still believe it, too.
:wink:

Some poster already said it for me. Do you want Shu who refused to part with his precious pitching prospects, or do you want a GM who wants to win NOW?

As I get older I realize that wait until next year, begets wait until next year.

Go for it any way you can in 2008.

Taliesinrk
01-03-2008, 08:06 PM
So.. counting from "Part I"...

:tomatoaward:tomatoaward:tomatoaward:tomatoaward :tomatoaward:tomatoaward

Frontman
01-03-2008, 08:06 PM
Your sarcasm is seering and your insults impressive, tough guy. But it was you who said that Gio and DLS were of no value because they didn't pitch in September.
Now that that's out of the way, let's look at the veracity of the notion that Erstad, Myers and Bukvich rode the bench in September:

Myers pitched on the September 7,8,10,14,15, 18,21,23,25, and 30
Bukvich pitched on August 24,25,26,29,30, September 1,5,6,10,16 - yes, he took a seat for the last 2 weeks.
They must have moved the bench to the field, because Erstad played on September 10, 12, 16,17,18,21,22,23,28,29

But you said Bukvich was used over younger pitchers, yet he sat for two weeks. Which is it then?

And from your Erstad play-dates, how many of them were late inning replacements, pinch hits, etc?

You say that it was all about older players, yet Richar was given a starting position as they moved Iguchi.

And no, I'm not a tough guy. Tough guys get all hot under the collar and get insulting.

HarryChappas
01-03-2008, 08:09 PM
Some poster already said it for me. Do you want Shu who refused to part with his precious pitching prospects, or do you want a GM who wants to win NOW?

As I get older I realize that wait until next year, begets wait until next year.

Go for it any way you can in 2008.

ATTA BOY!!!! Now we are talking!!!!

Taliesinrk
01-03-2008, 08:10 PM
:lofton
"did I hear that someone needed a lead-off hitter?"

PaleHoseGeorge
01-03-2008, 08:11 PM
Some poster already said it for me. Do you want Shu who refused to part with his precious pitching prospects, or do you want a GM who wants to win NOW?

Schu was simply building up for the Giant Sox Dynasty that always seemed to be two years away. Who can forget '00 when the arms of the Sox pitching staff were hanging by a single tendon, so Schu goes out and trades for 41 year-old Harold Baines... but we kept Matt Ginter!
:redface:

:schueler
"Of course we made a solid offer. I faxed it to them and never heard back."

jabrch
01-03-2008, 08:16 PM
I've wanted to ask you for some time about your apparent dislike for Konerko....Why trade such a player?

If it makes your team better - that's the only reason to consider it. So for Chone Figgins? NO

But if that gets you something that makes the team significantly better - certainly now that we have Swish to play 1B, you shouldn't be emotionally attached to Pauly.

I don't think Frater is suggesting we give him away (although I have disliked some of the deals he has suggested) - I think he is saying that if someone will pay top dollar for him, that a good business man or a good GM would consider selling high.

Taliesinrk
01-03-2008, 08:20 PM
If it makes your team better - that's the only reason to consider it. So for Chone Figgins? NO

But if that gets you something that makes the team significantly better - certainly now that we have Swish to play 1B, you shouldn't be emotionally attached to Pauly.

I don't think Frater is suggesting we give him away (although I have disliked some of the deals he has suggested) - I think he is saying that if someone will pay top dollar for him, that a good business man or a good GM would consider selling high.

I agree. I really liked Rockabilly's proposed trade for PK. Man, that would have been nice.

cws05champ
01-03-2008, 08:31 PM
I'm not the first person to make that comparison, and I'm certainly less qualified than those who have come to that assessment.

DLS remindes me of Juan Cruz. If he turns into Pedro...obviously it's a bad deal. If he is Juan Cruz, I can deal with it.

raven1
01-03-2008, 08:33 PM
I agree. I really liked Rockabilly's proposed trade for PK. Man, that would have been nice.
The one thing that would make sense to trade PK for is a solid, proven starting pitcher. An upgrade to the rotation behind Buehrle & Vasquez would win us far more games than the slight offensive hit of Swisher at 1st, Owens, Anderson, or Quentin now in the starting lineup would lose us.

Maybe the Angels would give us Garland back for Paulie.

Lillian
01-03-2008, 08:34 PM
Daver suggested (I think sincerely) batting Swisher leadoff. This makes sense in a lineup clearly designed to get guys on base for the thumpers.

Swisher's good for a .380 OBP, plus some stick (35 doubles, 25 homers). Cabrera often would move Swisher from first to third, plus has a decent .345 OBP himself. Thome's good for a .410 OBP, 20 doubles and 35 homers. That sets the table nicely for Paulie, Dye, Fields and Quentin; with AJ and Richar 8-9. That's an Earl Weaver special with lots of three-run homers.

At this point (and I know it's long been a cliché for me to suggest this), I'd still like to deal Paulie for Figgins and Shields. That gets sick speed with OBP at the top, and allows the switch-hitting Swisher to bat fifth:

Figgins CF, Cabrera SS, Thome DH, Dye LF, Swisher 1B, Fields 3B, Quentin RF, AJ C, Richar 2B

Now there's a lineup with a nice mix of speed, OBP and power; plus a wicked late inning bullpen trifecta (Linebrink/Shields in the 7th & 8th, then Jenks in the 9th); with a crapload of cash to plow into the rotation and/or make a big midseason deal.

BINGO!!!
You and I have both been on this same ¨page¨ for some time now.
Contrary to what some here seem to think, we both like Paulie, but he is the best trading chip the Sox hold. He is also now expendible. Swisher is better suited for 1B than CF, and Figgins would be the leadoff hitter we need, and could play center. The Angels really still need the big bat to protect Vlad G., and they have two lead off guys in Willits and Figgins.
I wouldn´t be a bit surprised if this long rumored, and speculated deal finally gets done. It just makes too much sense, for both teams.

Then, as you suggest, we could sign a veteran starter to shore up the rotation.

Tragg
01-03-2008, 08:35 PM
Maybe the Angels would give us Garland back for Paulie.
Good lord, trade Konerko to rent Garland for a year? I'm sure they would give him back to us for that..

That's why these 3 way deals, which don't happen often, are nice. We really need (and needed) to move veterans more than DLS - find a 3rd team who needed them. We have excess right now, which, hopefully, won't be given away.

raven1
01-03-2008, 08:47 PM
Good lord, trade Konerko to rent Garland for a year? I'm sure they would give him back to us for that..

That's why these 3 way deals, which don't happen often, are nice. We really need (and needed) to move veterans more than DLS - find a 3rd team who needed them. We have excess right now, which, hopefully, won't be given away.
I assume that without Konerko's salary we would be able to sign Garland (or Bedard or whoever else we could get) to an extension.

jabrch
01-03-2008, 08:50 PM
I assume that without Konerko's salary we would be able to sign Garland (or Bedard or whoever else we could get) to an extension.

There's a significant difference between the two. First, Bedard is better. Second, he's got 2 more seasons before hitting FA. Third, Bedard is better.

WhiteSox5187
01-03-2008, 08:55 PM
I assume that without Konerko's salary we would be able to sign Garland (or Bedard or whoever else we could get) to an extension.
Konerko's salary is hardly a hinderance...where's all the money we were supposed to spend on Hunter?? Trade Uribe and that's even more money that we can spend on signing a guy like Bedard (or if we had him, Garland) to an extension.

Carolina Kenny
01-03-2008, 09:03 PM
ATTA BOY!!!! Now we are talking!!!!

I saw Harry Chappas bunt for a hit, and go all around to score on a wild throw to first for the dear departed Appleton Foxes.

I thought, this guy is fantastic, can't miss.

I Feel The Sox Mojo Rising. This trade came like a bat of hell out of no where. No rumors, no leaks, what a shock.

The Sox will rise again in 2008, I'm no kool aid drinking bright eyed optimist.
Our offense will rebound big time with the changes already made, plus at least career average years from the rest. Our starting pitching is scary but we still have bargining chips to deal. It is impossbile not to improve upon last year's bullpen.

Bottom line, look out AL Central, the Sox are once again Under the Radar and Locked and Loaded.

soxwon
01-03-2008, 09:08 PM
I saw Harry Chappas bunt for a hit, and go all around to score on a wild throw to first for the dear departed Appleton Foxes.

I thought, this guy is fantastic, can't miss.

I Feel The Sox Mojo Rising. This trade came like a bat of hell out of no where. No rumors, no leaks, what a shock.

The Sox will rise again in 2008, I'm no kool aid drinking bright eyed optimist.
Our offense will rebound big time with the changes already made, plus at least career average years from the rest. Our starting pitching is scary but we still have bargining chips to deal. It is impossbile not to improve upon last year's bullpen.

Bottom line, look out AL Central, the Sox are once again Under the Radar and Locked and Loaded.


Finally a smart poster, only a few of us TRUE fans see the big picture.

jabrch
01-03-2008, 09:10 PM
This trade came like a bat of hell out of no where. No rumors, no leaks, what a shock.

Kenny operates best under the radar.

WhiteSox5187
01-03-2008, 09:12 PM
I saw Harry Chappas bunt for a hit, and go all around to score on a wild throw to first for the dear departed Appleton Foxes.

I thought, this guy is fantastic, can't miss.

I Feel The Sox Mojo Rising. This trade came like a bat of hell out of no where. No rumors, no leaks, what a shock.

The Sox will rise again in 2008, I'm no kool aid drinking bright eyed optimist.
Our offense will rebound big time with the changes already made, plus at least career average years from the rest. Our starting pitching is scary but we still have bargining chips to deal. It is impossbile not to improve upon last year's bullpen.

Bottom line, look out AL Central, the Sox are once again Under the Radar and Locked and Loaded.
I can't begin to tell you how much I HOPE you are right...but this team's pitching staff is still paper thin, there are still a lot of question marks here, and our only really bargining chip is Crede and no one knows if he can play or not...this team is just as likely to lose ninety games again as it is to ninety games.

raven1
01-03-2008, 09:14 PM
Kenny operates best under the radar.
After getting unfairly beat up by the media for the all the widely rumored deals he "missed" on for M. Cabrera, Fukodome, Hunter, Rowand, etc., it wouldn't surprise me if KW continued to work very quietly for the rest of this offseason.

jabrch
01-03-2008, 09:16 PM
After getting unfairly beat up by the media for the all the widely rumored deals he "missed" on for M. Cabrera, Fukodome, Hunter, Rowand, etc., it wouldn't surprise me if KW continued to work very quietly for the rest of this offseason.

Not only would it not surprise me - I'd prefer it. Telegraphing your intentions makes it much harder to execute - in nearly any effort.

raven1
01-03-2008, 09:17 PM
I can't begin to tell you how much I HOPE you are right...but this team's pitching staff is still paper thin, there are still a lot of question marks here, and our only really bargining chip is Crede and no one knows if he can play or not...this team is just as likely to lose ninety games again as it is to ninety games.
Adding both Cabrera & Swisher has upgraded the offense just enough to consider moving position starters other than just Crede (i.e. Konerko, Dye, or Thome), assuming the price is right (a bonafide #2 or 3 starter).

chisox77
01-03-2008, 09:20 PM
This Swisher deal, the Ramirez signing, these are the things that KW does best. There's more to come . . .



:cool:

WhiteSox5187
01-03-2008, 09:22 PM
Adding both Cabrera & Swisher has upgraded the offense just enough to consider moving position starters other than just Crede (i.e. Konerko, Dye, or Thome), assuming the price is right (a bonafide #2 or 3 starter).
We just re-signed Dye, so I don't think we're going to move him. Moving Konerko creates an awfully big hole in that lineup that I am not sure Swisher can fill (Cabrera certainly can't)...Thome is a one tool guy, he's a DH who hits RH pitching. You're not going to get a two or three starter for him. I'm not even so sure you're going to get a two or three starter for Konerko...and then there's still the question, who leads off on this team??

kittle42
01-03-2008, 09:26 PM
Unlike many people here, I am going to refrain from commenting on this trade because I simply do not know enough about Gonzalez and, especially, De Los Santos. I am neutral on the trade, but I do tend to side with those posters who see the bright side of this - acquiring MLB talent for 2 legit prospects and a bust.

What have I noticed in this thread?

1. Hypocrites
2. A lot of people cannot even spell the names of players on their own favorite team
3. A lot of people love to spout opinions on things about which they have no underlying knowledge.

HarryChappas
01-03-2008, 09:30 PM
Unlike many people here, I am going to refrain from commenting on this trade because I simply do not know enough about Gonzalez and, especially, De Los Santos. I am neutral on the trade, but I do tend to side with those posters who see the bright side of this - acquiring MLB talent for 2 legit prospects and a bust.

What have I noticed in this thread?

1. Hypocrites
2. A lot of people cannot even spell the names of players on their own favorite team
3. A lot of people love to spout opinions on things about which they have no underlying knowledge.
:gulp: Have a cold one and join the party! Relax we are all professionals like konnerko!

skobabe8
01-03-2008, 09:30 PM
Unlike many people here, I am going to refrain from commenting on this trade because I simply do not know enough about Gonzalez and, especially, De Los Santos. I am neutral on the trade, but I do tend to side with those posters who see the bright side of this - acquiring MLB talent for 2 legit prospects and a bust.

What have I noticed in this thread?

1. Hypocrites
2. A lot of people cannot even spell the names of players on their own favorite team
3. A lot of people love to spout opinions on things about which they have no underlying knowledge.

:thumbsup:

cwsfannick
01-03-2008, 09:32 PM
Ah Yes, Nick Swisher Mullett Night.

Welcome to the South Side Nick.

A. Cavatica
01-03-2008, 09:34 PM
konnerko

:rolleyes:

FarWestChicago
01-03-2008, 09:36 PM
What have I noticed in this thread?

1. Hypocrites
2. A lot of people cannot even spell the names of players on their own favorite team
3. A lot of people love to spout opinions on things about which they have no underlying knowledge.WSI in all it's glory. :happyguy:

areilly
01-03-2008, 09:40 PM
Kenny operates best under the radar.

That's true. I've also found batters operate best at the plate.

Carolina Kenny
01-03-2008, 09:41 PM
Unlike many people here, I am going to refrain from commenting on this trade because I simply do not know enough about Gonzalez and, especially, De Los Santos. I am neutral on the trade, but I do tend to side with those posters who see the bright side of this - acquiring MLB talent for 2 legit prospects and a bust.

What have I noticed in this thread?

1. Hypocrites
2. A lot of people cannot even spell the names of players on their own favorite team
3. A lot of people love to spout opinions on things about which they have no underlying knowledge.

All I know is I will never have to watch Ernested of Mackoviwak ever play in Center for the Sox again. And thats enough for me on a cold Janarary night.

raven1
01-03-2008, 09:44 PM
All I know is I will never have to watch Ernested of Mackoviwak ever play in Center for the Sox again. And thats enough for me on a cold Janarary night.
But there's still a chance we'll see Bryan Andersson again!

Carolina Kenny
01-03-2008, 09:47 PM
But there's still a chance we'll see Bryan Andersson again!

Or Arrone Rowland.

SoxNation05
01-03-2008, 09:54 PM
Or Arrone Rowland.
Don't forget Scotty Podsucknik!

DSpivack
01-03-2008, 10:01 PM
But there's still a chance we'll see Bryan Andersson again!

I wouldn't mind Bryan (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/A/bryan-anderson-1.shtml)Anderson.

Frontman
01-03-2008, 10:07 PM
Or Arrone Rowland.

I thought it was Erin Row 'and.

Hmmm. Shows you that I don't know what I'm talking aboot.

chaerulez
01-03-2008, 10:10 PM
Unlike many people here, I am going to refrain from commenting on this trade because I simply do not know enough about Gonzalez and, especially, De Los Santos. I am neutral on the trade, but I do tend to side with those posters who see the bright side of this - acquiring MLB talent for 2 legit prospects and a bust.

What have I noticed in this thread?

1. Hypocrites
2. A lot of people cannot even spell the names of players on their own favorite team
3. A lot of people love to spout opinions on things about which they have no underlying knowledge.

I'm going to say I agree with you on your three points, but I don't think it's fair to label Ryan Sweeney a bust- the guy has 80 career ABs and will only be 23 opening day.

batmanZoSo
01-03-2008, 10:12 PM
Unlike many people here, I am going to refrain from commenting on this trade because I simply do not know enough about Gonzalez and, especially, De Los Santos. I am neutral on the trade, but I do tend to side with those posters who see the bright side of this - acquiring MLB talent for 2 legit prospects and a bust.

What have I noticed in this thread?

1. Hypocrites
2. A lot of people cannot even spell the names of players on their own favorite team
3. A lot of people love to spout opinions on things about which they have no underlying knowledge.

We need to get Valentine and Borchradt back.

kittle42
01-03-2008, 10:20 PM
We need to get Valentine and Borchradt back.

And Ritchey.

batmanZoSo
01-03-2008, 10:21 PM
I don't think you can **** up Swisher. Who am I kidding, someone will type Swischer at some point.

btrain929
01-03-2008, 10:23 PM
My personal opinion is that the role of players in the minor leagues is to eventually benefit the big league club in the near future. If they can shoot thru the system then continue to tear up the majors, then of course that MLB team has the benefit of having that player under control for a good amount of years at a reasonable price. This is every GM's dream.

However, nobody wants to have a minor league system win the AAA championship every year, while your big league team blows. The point of view I see is that we're using prospects to bring in young MLB proven (or damn close) players into the big league squad. Our system is depleted. So what? Look at the guys we currently have on the MLB squad:

Quentin: Damn near major league ready (ready when healthy). He's in his mid 20's. If/when he plays like we know he can, he'll be a force for us for years to come.
Swisher: Proven at the MLB level. All-star calibur hitter. 27 years old and under control to 4-5 years at well below market value.
Fields: Proved that he belongs to stay at the majors. Has the bat, and the glove should be average. Another 26-27 year old that will be here for many years.
Richar/Owens: If one of these guys can stick and produce at a MLB level adequately, they'll be under our control for years to come. I know Owens is in his late 20's I believe, but he is still young and has a lot of baseball ahead of him if he continues to improve.
Danks: His 1st half in the majors impressed the heck out of me. I'm with the group that believes he just gassed out in the 2nd half. He should be a reliable back of the rotation guy that can hopefully put up Garland numbers (low-to-mid 4 era, 13+ wins consistently), but with more K's, and a hell of a lot cheaper.

We acquired almost all of them through trades of prospects/players on the way out. There's not many MLB teams, if any (maybe the Rockies?), where the majority of their teams are in their 20's and very young. To be successful, a majority of your team are probably going to be veterans/in their 30's. But its great to see we've made moves to get youngER. The catch is we're not giving up major league talent to get younger. If these were Robbie Alomar/Carl Everett acquisitions, I'd be furious. But they're not. It's a KW cliche', but these moves are making us better now AND the future because the guys we're acquiring are MLB ready, and young enough where we have control over them for years to come, not a one year rental at the deadline.

I was shocked to see Gio AND DLS in the same deal, but as crazy as it sounds, I'd prefer a deal like this over a deal for Haren because we'd only have control of him over 2 more years, and there's an excellent chance he'll go to free agency. THEN we're royally screwed, having a depleted system and the same hole in the rotation we had 2 years ago when we acquired Haren. With these recent moves, we have guys thats proven or damn near right there, plays a lot of positions we used to be very weak at, and we have control over for 4-5 years at an amazing price. I agree our rotation will need work in the next year or 2. But I think acquiring 1 thru FA and 1 thru trade will have us in a great position to contend.

So yea, my .2 cents there....Go Sox

Corlose 15
01-03-2008, 10:25 PM
Here's a shock, Phil Rogers doesn't like the deal.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080103philrogersnickswisherwhitesox,0,2982799.colu mn

FarWestChicago
01-03-2008, 10:26 PM
I don't think you can **** up Swisher. Who am I kidding, someone will type Swischer at some point.Switzer? :dunno:

Jayhawk73
01-03-2008, 10:27 PM
Great website--I've been freeriding for a long time, enjoying everyone's thoughts on my beloved Sox.

I am moved to make one of my rare posts by this unexpected, outstanding trade that Kenny Williams has effected. Nick Swisher is a heck of a player whose OBP we sorely need to help energize what was a woeful offense and whose economics open up additional potentially attractive options down the road (as compared with Torrii Hunter or Aaron Rowand).

I also am of a mind with those posters who have stressed the importance of aiming for wins today versus doing so in an uncertain future.

What is more, this trade is truly brilliant in that regard: Kenny has managed to finesse the inevitable tradeoff: he has obtained a virtual certainty in the present--a very solid major league baseball player--for several players whose likelihood of becoming solid major league players in future is decidedly uncertain.

In my profession, a certain present return is always preferred over an uncertain future return.

I'm amazed that Kenny was able to make this stunning move.

I'm looking foward to a highly competitive White Sox in 2008! This trade makes us one heck of a lot better than we were yesterday.

:gulp:

jabrch
01-03-2008, 10:27 PM
And Ritchey.


I don't give a damn how you spell it - I don't want that guy back.

soxfan43
01-03-2008, 10:29 PM
Adding both Cabrera & Swisher has upgraded the offense just enough to consider moving position starters other than just Crede (i.e. Konerko, Dye, or Thome), assuming the price is right (a bonafide #2 or 3 starter).


Exactly. The team isn't relying just on a couple of guys now. You have a more balanced attack, you can make sacrifices to get some pitching. I know there are some holes still, but if Richar struggles, I think one of Ramirez Uribe or Ozuna can help there. I know poeple have tossed Bedards name out there but after this Swisher move coming out of nowhere, we might be in for another under the radar move. Any ideas?

soxwon
01-03-2008, 10:36 PM
The more i read on the internet, and see videos of this Swisher guy, the more i positively think its a fantastic trade.
i have to admit it, Da rev has a man crush on Nick swisher.
Sox fans Swisher and Cabrerra are going to be awesome.

FedEx227
01-03-2008, 10:40 PM
The more i read on the internet, and see videos of this Swisher guy, the more i positively think its a fantastic trade.
i have to admit it, Da rev has a man crush on Nick swisher.
Sox fans Swisher and Cabrerra are going to be awesome.

kittle42 approves!

Javier Vasquez = ACE!

mjmcend
01-03-2008, 10:46 PM
I like this trade because now we know for certain that we are going all out for it in 2008. We are not stuck in limbo whiffing on trades because we balked at their demands. Did we overpay? Maybe, but it doesn't matter since we are all-in for next year. Before this trade, I didn't feel like we did enough to field a competitive team. We now do have a team that has a chance to win the division.

I, like most here, am still concerned about our rotation. I hope we sign one or two of the free agents left to a short term deal (preferably one year or one plus an option year). Bartolo Colon, Jeff Weaver, Freddy Garcia, Mike Maroth, Jaret Wright, or Victor Zambrano are examples. I know your first thoughts are that they suck or are unproven since the are coming off of injuries but for a very short term deal what risk is there? There are no more proven players left to be signed (and I don't believe we have enough left to trade for a top starter). All that it would take to sign one or two of these guys would be money, and it wouldn't hamper payroll in the future. Unless you are a Sox owner, you have nothing to lose by rolling the dice with one of these guys. Best case, they pitch out of their minds and they help us win now. Worst case, they are replaced with Floyd, Broadway, ect. If it is a one year deal, there is future harm to the payroll.

gogosox16
01-03-2008, 10:49 PM
I like this trade because now we know for certain that we are going all out for it in 2008. We are not stuck in limbo whiffing on trades because we balked at their demands. Did we overpay? Maybe, but it doesn't matter since we are all-in for next year. Before this trade, I didn't feel like we did enough to field a competitive team. We now do have a team that has a chance to win the division.


We have an offense capable of winning the division but do we have the back end of the rotation and bulpen to win the division? we will have to wait and see

mjmcend
01-03-2008, 10:52 PM
We have an offense capable of winning the division but do we have the back end of the rotation and bulpen to win the division? we will have to wait and see

That would be why I deliberately used the word 'chance.'

kittle42
01-03-2008, 10:53 PM
kittle42 approves!

Javier Vasquez = ACE!

Noah Webster and I gave up on soxwon a long time ago.

jabrch
01-03-2008, 10:55 PM
do we have the back end of the rotation and bulpen to win the division? we will have to wait and see

The back end of our rotation and our bullpen is competitive with both Cleveland and Detroit.


Danks
Floyd
Jenks
Linebrink
Thornton

Willis
Robertson
Jones
Zumaya
Grilli

Byrd
Sowers
Borowski
Betancourt
Fulz

voodoochile
01-03-2008, 10:55 PM
Some poster already said it for me. Do you want Shu who refused to part with his precious pitching prospects, or do you want a GM who wants to win NOW?

As I get older I realize that wait until next year, begets wait until next year.

Go for it any way you can in 2008.

Right and if the Sox wait on DLS, Gio and Sweeney to be contributors on the big league club it's more like, "wait for 2011" that is of course IF they can build a team around them that will actually be worth watching...

The Sox right now are looking WAY better than last year and actually are not far from being playoff contenders each of the next three years if a couple of the young kids ALREADY on the Major League team can actually pan out. The really sweet part is there is suddenly a fair amount of redundancy at the position players too. There are a couple of guys who might work out at CF or corner OF slot and a couple of guys who might play SS or 2B and a couple of guys who could start at 3B. Given that the 3 settled spots are 1B, RF and C at the moment, having options like that is a pretty cool thing...

beckett21
01-03-2008, 10:57 PM
Without reading the previous 900 + posts on the subject, I have no problem with this deal.

I believe Nick Swisher is going to be a star. No teal.

I would have loved to have kept one of the two pitching prospects that were traded, but obviously that wouldn't have gotten the deal done. Given how hit or miss pitching prospects can be, and how fragile pitchers are in general, I'm not going to lose any sleep over them.

Admittedly I don't know a ton about Gio or DLS, and I'll defer to the resident 'scouts' on their talents. But Swisher is a quality MLB talent who appears to be on the brink of becoming something special. It's way too early to pass final judgment on this one.

kba
01-03-2008, 11:39 PM
Here's a shock, Phil Rogers doesn't like the deal.


Figures. When Phil wrote his alarmist Dec. 12, 2006 column predicting Buehrle and Vazquez would be traded or allowed to walk, he called them "talented, valuable workhorses."

Now, in today's column, he claims KW's deal that brought Vazquez to the Sox "blew up in his face."

Frontman
01-03-2008, 11:53 PM
Figures. When Phil wrote his alarmist Dec. 12, 2006 column predicting Buehrle and Vazquez would be traded or allowed to walk, he called them "talented, valuable workhorses."

Now, in today's column, he claims KW's deal that brought Vazquez to the Sox "blew up in his face."

I'm sure he also will say Buehrle isn't worth much in the next week or two.

Nothing that the Sox and Kenny Williams do in this town will earn the respect of the sports writers.

Martinigirl
01-03-2008, 11:59 PM
I'm sure he also will say Buehrle isn't worth much in the next week or two.

Nothing that the Sox and Kenny Williams do in this town will earn the respect of the sports writers.

When he could make money on Sox fans, by writing a book on the 2005 Sox, he was insightful and fair, but ever since then he has been a complete ass.

ilsox7
01-04-2008, 12:01 AM
When he could make money on Sox fans, by writing a book on the 2005 Sox, he was insightful and fair, but ever since then he has been a complete ass.

It really is sad. Phil used to be one of the only decent writers in this town. He is pretty much awful now. His opinions don't make much sense and are generally not supported by facts.

RCWHITESOX
01-04-2008, 12:01 AM
Great website--I've been freeriding for a long time, enjoying everyone's thoughts on my beloved Sox.

I am moved to make one of my rare posts by this unexpected, outstanding trade that Kenny Williams has effected. Nick Swisher is a heck of a player whose OBP we sorely need to help energize what was a woeful offense and whose economics open up additional potentially attractive options down the road (as compared with Torrii Hunter or Aaron Rowand).

I also am of a mind with those posters who have stressed the importance of aiming for wins today versus doing so in an uncertain future.

What is more, this trade is truly brilliant in that regard: Kenny has managed to finesse the inevitable tradeoff: he has obtained a virtual certainty in the present--a very solid major league baseball player--for several players whose likelihood of becoming solid major league players in future is decidedly uncertain.

In my profession, a certain present return is always preferred over an uncertain future return.

I'm amazed that Kenny was able to make this stunning move.

I'm looking foward to a highly competitive White Sox in 2008! This trade makes us one heck of a lot better than we were yesterday.

:gulp:

I'm with you on this trade. It's Great! The guy is only 27. We have him salary friendly for 3 years, He has a very good oba and he has improved as a player over the last 3 years. The last time I looked the Sox were near the bottom on oba. Of course you can't make everyone happy. I guess Oakland should of just given him up to us for a player to be named later. Face it you have to give up something to get established talent . Oakland is banking that at least 1 of the 3 will turn into a quality MLP. I'm for winning now; in case you have forgotin we have been in the World Series only twice since 1959.

Frontman
01-04-2008, 12:01 AM
When he could make money on Sox fans, by writing a book on the 2005 Sox, he was insightful and fair, but ever since then he has been a complete ass.

The whole damn lot of 'em are so full of themselves its not even funny. So many sports reporters think that if they've done the job long enough, THEY are the story. Telander, Marriotti, Rogers, Levine. They all think that since sound comes out of their mouths or ink out of their pens what they have to say has some form of credibility over that of a fan.

chisoxmike
01-04-2008, 12:03 AM
I don't know anymore.

My fear is that Jerry Owens and Nick Swisher will split time in CF. I never want to see Jerry Owens play in a White Sox uniform. Swisher is a good ballplayer, but our pitching sucks. I also don't trust Ozzie to not run out Owens 3 times a week.

We'll see...

DrCrawdad
01-04-2008, 12:20 AM
Nothing that the Sox and Kenny Williams do in this town will earn the respect of the sports writers.

That really is true. Compare and contrast the love that gets showered on Jim Hendry, who has done less with more at his disposal.

oeo
01-04-2008, 12:28 AM
I don't know anymore.

My fear is that Jerry Owens and Nick Swisher will split time in CF. I never want to see Jerry Owens play in a White Sox uniform. Swisher is a good ballplayer, but our pitching sucks. I also don't trust Ozzie to not run out Owens 3 times a week.

We'll see...

Now Ozzie plays less experienced guys over the veterans? :?:

I thought it was the other way around...you guys need to make up your minds if you ever want anyone to believe Ozzie's 'conspiracies.'

I like the depth the offense has now. I'm not so excited about the deal because of what we gave up, but Swisher is a good fit, actually a perfect fit. I'm still crying that we lost Gio and DLS, though. :whiner:

WhiteSox5187
01-04-2008, 12:36 AM
It really is sad. Phil used to be one of the only decent writers in this town. He is pretty much awful now. His opinions don't make much sense and are generally not supported by facts.
So when the Sox were good and he said "Hey, they're good" he was a good writer, but when they're bad and he says "Hey, they're bad" he's a bad writer? SOMETIMES what Phil writes gets to me, I didn't like what he wrote during the McCarthy trade but he came out later and said "I was wrong...Danks is pretty good." I still think he's one of the best baseball writers in Chicago. I don't mind what he says at all...if he thinks we gave up a lot, well, guess what, I got news for you, he's not the only one. Hell, a ton of Sox fans think we gave up a lot. Now if Swisher goes out and hits 30+ HRs with 100 RBIs and the Sox win the division, he will give Kenny his props. But if DLS or Gio becomes aces later on and the Sox are stuck in fourth or even last place, he'll rip Kenny and call out the White Sox. As well he should.

The ferocity of the Kenny defenders here amazes me (as does the ferocity of those who attack him too). We're all thankful for what he did in 2005, but that doesn't make him a genius or mean that every move he makes from then on is gold. He makes mistakes and he can and should be called out on them. We'll just have to see if this one or not.

1989
01-04-2008, 12:43 AM
I couldn't disagree more. I don't care if he's throwing to the backside of a barn. My eyes don't lie to me. Watching him pitch...we don't have anyone on our staff close to his stuff. He's going to get major leaguers out with extreme consistency. It's only a matter of when it happens.

what were DLS stats in A ball? they better be somewhere near 18-4, 2.30, and 200 + K's or else i'm not buying this BS. from what it sounds like...this guy is a poor mans daniel cabrera

The Dude
01-04-2008, 12:48 AM
I don't feel like looking through all these posts but I love when I see tons of fans upset for trading one of their players.
http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ml-athletics&tid=55278

I know we gave up a lot but prospects are only prospects until proven otherwise. Swisher seems solid and I think he will be a fixture in our lineup for years to come.

rdivaldi
01-04-2008, 01:14 AM
Jest all you want. The guy reminds me a lot of a young Pedro Martinez, and not just because of his body build.

If some of you would actually have seen this kid pitch last year, you wouldn't be making asinine comments about what munchman said. Fautino has downright filthy stuff, he could be a Pedro-type pitcher. True he could also be the next Juan Cruz or he could just flame out and never reach the majors. I'm just disappointed he'll be doing it in the wrong uniform.

IlliniSox4Life
01-04-2008, 01:16 AM
I haven't posted much in a couple of days/weeks - I'm on vacation in Florida right now at my Grandma's house. Anyway, news of this trade pretty much made me come here to post. I've read a lot of posts dissing the trade and saying we gave up to much. To be fair though, prospects are prospects. Our last few prospects haven't done a whole lot. I was high on Gio and DLS too, but we got a guy that can actually contribute next year in a pretty meaningful way. I'm down with that.

rdivaldi
01-04-2008, 01:22 AM
Our last few prospects haven't done a whole lot.

Not to pick on you, but I absolutely loathe that kind of reasoning. What Danny Wright or any other random bad prospect did is completely independent of what Gio or DLS will do. Prospects are prospects, but eventually KW is going to get burned and burned badly.

:(:

gogosox16
01-04-2008, 01:47 AM
Not to pick on you, but I absolutely loathe that kind of reasoning. What Danny Wright or any other random bad prospect did is completely independent of what Gio or DLS will do. Prospects are prospects, but eventually KW is going to get burned and burned badly.

:(:
In other words, he could also just steal Swisher away while all 3 turn into busts

IlliniSox4Life
01-04-2008, 01:47 AM
Not to pick on you, but I absolutely loathe that kind of reasoning. What Danny Wright or any other random bad prospect did is completely independent of what Gio or DLS will do. Prospects are prospects, but eventually KW is going to get burned and burned badly.

:(:
This is true and not true.

While they are different people, they are still products of the same system. A lot of the same people that **** on our farm system for not being able to develop players turn around and **** on the team for trading away prospects. Well which is it, we can't develop players, or the only players that we have ever developed are the ones we happen to trade away and all the ones we failed at developing are the ones we kept? The same guys who determined X player was ready (who flopped) have determined that Gio/etc are ready. Why are they all of a suddent right when they don't have the best track record?

I don't know enough about baseball to evaluate talent. I'll be one of the first to admit that I am just some fan with above average knowledge of the game talking about my favorite team on a message board. I'm not saying this is the way you are saying it is, and I'm not saying it is the way it is either. All I'm saying is that there's a lot of ways you can look at it, and one is that we have an awful farm system that hasn't developed a whole lot lately. If you look at it this way, trading away prospects doesn't mean a whole lot. I would say that probably 95% of the posters on this board haven't seen Gio, DLS, or anyone else in our minors pitch. Of the 5% that have seen them, the vast majority don't know any more than any of the White Sox scouts do. Everybody can chat it up like it is the end of days here, or step back and take a deep breath.

rdivaldi
01-04-2008, 01:52 AM
In other words, he could also just steal Swisher away while all 3 turn into busts

Yes, that is definitely within the realm of possibility. Unfortunately from what I've seen of all three of these players, I highly doubt it.

:(:

ksimpson14
01-04-2008, 02:15 AM
I like Swisher, but does anyone really think that even if he has a MVP season, the Sox as a whole can do better than 6-7 GB range of a playoff spot? And then, that we depleted our system even more, hurting our future improvement, one that was one of the worst in the majors?

I'm not going to ask for Kenny's head on a stick, I'm still going to wait to see if some holes can get filled, but it's going to be tough. You have the 2 third basemen, but I don't see Fields getting dealt with his potential and possibility we would lose Crede anyways, and who wants Crede, both unproven, and in his final year, a lethal combination, since no one would want to lock him up, even if they had the chance. Right now I see ourselves in 01-03 mode. Both rotation and pen have holes, the defense probably won't lead the league, and we know about the minors, but I'd still like to see some of those filled before opening day, with both pitching and the minors being priority

jcw218
01-04-2008, 02:36 AM
Prospects are used to help improve the major league roster. Whether it be them stepping up and helping the big club themselves or being dealt to another organization to acquire players from outside that help the big league club. IMHO, the White Sox are a better team with Nick Swisher and we did not weaken the major league team in the process. How much better still remains to be scene and yes, the Sox can still improve in other areas.

gobears1987
01-04-2008, 05:59 AM
Hard to judge a trade when we haven't seen much of DLS or Gio. I like this trade overall as it helps us win now.

soxfanatlanta
01-04-2008, 06:43 AM
Like most of the other posters - I'll take a wait and see approach. I'll miss Sweeny though, I enjoyed watching him play in Charlotte, and hope he does good things in the bigs.

spawn
01-04-2008, 07:02 AM
Just wanted to add that I heard Swisher being interviewed on MJ&H yesterday. i can see why he was a fan favorite. The guy is full of energy. He seems a perfect fit for the Sox. I think this will end up being a terrific acqusition. Great move Kenny! :thumbsup:

SoxxoS
01-04-2008, 08:15 AM
Not to pick on you, but I absolutely loathe that kind of reasoning. What Danny Wright or any other random bad prospect did is completely independent of what Gio or DLS will do. Prospects are prospects, but eventually KW is going to get burned and burned badly.

:(:

This is very true...and I think this is the trade Kenny gets burned badly on. This trade could ultimately cost him his job is Gonzalez and DLS reach their potential.

balke
01-04-2008, 08:24 AM
This is very true...and I think this is the trade Kenny gets burned badly on. This trade could ultimately cost him his job is Gonzalez and DLS reach their potential.

This is the year I suspect Kenny has to worry about Jeremy Reed hitting .350 and breaking the all-time doubles record. He may lose his job sooner than we all think.

Nick Swisher for 5 years is probably going to compensate what the Sox lost. Gio looks great, and will look even better in Oakland. If anything it may be a move to help Gio's career so he can get to the MLB faster and start strong. Same for Sweeney, he wasn't going to be getting into RF anytime soon with the Sox.

You gotta give something to get something unfortunately.

cws05champ
01-04-2008, 08:33 AM
So when the Sox were good and he said "Hey, they're good" he was a good writer, but when they're bad and he says "Hey, they're bad" he's a bad writer? SOMETIMES what Phil writes gets to me, I didn't like what he wrote during the McCarthy trade but he came out later and said "I was wrong...Danks is pretty good." I still think he's one of the best baseball writers in Chicago. I don't mind what he says at all...if he thinks we gave up a lot, well, guess what, I got news for you, he's not the only one. Hell, a ton of Sox fans think we gave up a lot. Now if Swisher goes out and hits 30+ HRs with 100 RBIs and the Sox win the division, he will give Kenny his props. But if DLS or Gio becomes aces later on and the Sox are stuck in fourth or even last place, he'll rip Kenny and call out the White Sox. As well he should.

The ferocity of the Kenny defenders here amazes me (as does the ferocity of those who attack him too). We're all thankful for what he did in 2005, but that doesn't make him a genius or mean that every move he makes from then on is gold. He makes mistakes and he can and should be called out on them. We'll just have to see if this one or not.

I agree, I have bashed Phil in the past because of his stories, but he hit this one out of the ballpark. The Sox did pay a lot to get Swisher...bottom line. It was overall a good column. The only thing that I (and other people around here) get upset about is the snide comments in his stories(like the Chris Young/Javy comment) and general windsocking. It's almost as if he is inserting these snide comments to rile up Sox managment/fans...or please his bosses.

rdivaldi
01-04-2008, 08:47 AM
Check these eye popping stats of a can't miss prospect:
Kannapolis - 11-4 2.00 era (led league) 112.1-ip 83 h 119 k's
Winston-Salem 0-1 1.72 era 36.2-ip 25 h 38 k's
Birmingham 2-0 2.33 era 19.1-ip 8 h 20 k's

---- those were Corwin Malone's 2001 stats:rolleyes:

No one is going to confuse Corwin Malone for DLS, even when Corwin had his one fluky year. I understand everyone is trying to point out that he is a young guy and never pitched above A ball. However, if you've seen the kid pitch you'd understand why some of us are highly disappointed.

voodoochile
01-04-2008, 08:55 AM
No one is going to confuse Corwin Malone for DLS, even when Corwin had his one fluky year. I understand everyone is trying to point out that he is a young guy and never pitched above A ball. However, if you've seen the kid pitch you'd understand why some of us are highly disappointed.

Okay, here's another example and one who actually made the big league club and was briefly effective.

I remember the first few times I saw Danny Wright pitch. That huge heavy fastball and massive slider made me think the Sox had finally developed a power pitcher ala Clemens. Of course he screwed up his arm and busted out of the league pretty quickly and that's the point. DLS may turn into Pedro Martinez. Good for him if he does. On the other hand he might turn into Danny Wright and never amount to much. That would be a pity for him, but so much can happen and so many things can change in the next 3 years, it's just silly to be bemoaning the loss of even a great young pitching prospect.

On a side note, Rdivaldi really really like DLS if he is more concerned with losing him than Gio. He's been touting Gio for the last 3-4 years as a can't miss thing...

ilsox7
01-04-2008, 08:59 AM
So when the Sox were good and he said "Hey, they're good" he was a good writer, but when they're bad and he says "Hey, they're bad" he's a bad writer? SOMETIMES what Phil writes gets to me, I didn't like what he wrote during the McCarthy trade but he came out later and said "I was wrong...Danks is pretty good." I still think he's one of the best baseball writers in Chicago. I don't mind what he says at all...if he thinks we gave up a lot, well, guess what, I got news for you, he's not the only one. Hell, a ton of Sox fans think we gave up a lot. Now if Swisher goes out and hits 30+ HRs with 100 RBIs and the Sox win the division, he will give Kenny his props. But if DLS or Gio becomes aces later on and the Sox are stuck in fourth or even last place, he'll rip Kenny and call out the White Sox. As well he should.

The ferocity of the Kenny defenders here amazes me (as does the ferocity of those who attack him too). We're all thankful for what he did in 2005, but that doesn't make him a genius or mean that every move he makes from then on is gold. He makes mistakes and he can and should be called out on them. We'll just have to see if this one or not.

Hardly. If you've actually ever read any of my posts, you'd see that I defended Phil on many occasions after 2005. He came on one night after one particular article and I was one of the few who had nice words for him. I think that was in 2006. Over the last 18 months or so his writing and his logic have pretty much deserted him.

So, if you're going to call me out for something, at least get your facts straight.

Rockabilly
01-04-2008, 09:42 AM
Does anyone know if the Sox will be having a press conference introducing Swisher and Cabrera to the media

Frontman
01-04-2008, 09:49 AM
Corwin Malone was all the rage in the Sox 2002 spring training . I can still remember Peter Gammons raving about him.

DLS has great stuff and Gio is right there but I'm very happy with the trade. If Oakland makes out in the trade well then good for them. Swisher is going to be a stud hitting in the Cell and gives Ozzie plenty of flexibility.

Kenny traded prospects for a proven player because he couldn't get the free agents he wanted. The money NOT spent will be there to lock Orlando up and
for next years free agents .

It's all in the timing. Had KW been able to get Hunter/Rowand; he might of not had to trade Gio/DLS. But to get something, you have to give something up. Those guys are solid minor league pitchers with a major league possibility. If they work out down the road, yeah it stinks we gave them up but there is no sure fire anything in the major leagues. No player is a sure fire/can't miss prospect.

102605
01-04-2008, 10:13 AM
Swisher is 27 year old switch hitter that can play all 3 outfield positions and 1st base and is locked up for 4 years at a very low rate. Plus he is a player/fan favorite for his hustle and personality, but Kenny still gets ripped.:?:

Gosh, no kidding! Would GIO or DLS or Sweeney (who looks like a bust) contribute at all in 2008? No!

A "worry about next year first" attitude is what KW has ALWAYS given us and its already proven to work once.

Sit back, relax, and strap it down.

Steelrod
01-04-2008, 10:24 AM
To some people on this board, KW cannot win. If the prospects break down and don't succeed, they will espouse that it might not have happened in our organization.
Bottom line, the big league club is better today than yesterday. Tomorrow will be dealt with at a later time.

champagne030
01-04-2008, 10:25 AM
Corwin Malone was all the rage in the Sox 2002 spring training . I can still remember Peter Gammons raving about him.

DLS has great stuff and Gio is right there but I'm very happy with the trade. If Oakland makes out in the trade well then good for them. Swisher is going to be a stud hitting in the Cell and gives Ozzie plenty of flexibility.

Kenny traded prospects for a proven player because he couldn't get the free agents he wanted. The money NOT spent will be there to lock Orlando up and
for next years free agents .

Please give me the name of a quality free agent starting pitcher who will come here and sign a 3 year deal.

Kenny has been in "rob Peter to pay Paul" mode this offseason. Upgrade short at the expense of starting pitching....Upgrade OF at the expense of potential starting pitching. 60% of our starting staff is a complete crapshoot this season, plus coming off terrible seasons and there's next to nothing to help that this season or next.

spawn
01-04-2008, 10:34 AM
With regards to our farm system, it's true. it does seem to be devoid of any real talent. I think someone else mentioned this upthread, but let's think about this for a second. Think about the players on the major league roster that would've been in the minors this upcoming season that got their feet wet last year (Richar, Owens, Floyd, Broadway, Wasserman, Fields) along with those acquired this offseason (Quinton, Ramirez). If all of these guys are still in the minors, the farm system doesn't look devoid of talent. All of the above mentioned players, with the exception of Ramirez, are all technically prospects with a year or less major league experience. So we just traded 2 prospects who quite possibly would not have played for the major league club (Gio, DLS), and one that probably would not have had a lot of playing time were he called up (Sweeney) for a proven major leaguer approaching his prime. We now have an up and coming core nucleus that in a few years should replace the old guard (Dye, Konerko, Thome). maybe it's just me, but all of a sudden, the future of the Sox looks pretty bright.

Having all of these youngsters develop in the majors gives KW the time to restock the farm system for the next crop of up and coming youngsters. The more I think about it, the more I believe KW actually does have a plan, and does no what he's doing.

On the other hand, I could also be a complete moron. The jury is still out on that. :wink: :D:

jabrch
01-04-2008, 10:39 AM
A "worry about next year first" attitude is what KW has ALWAYS given us and its already proven to work once.


KW doesn't invest enough time/energy/money in developing prospects

I love our fans!

TomBradley72
01-04-2008, 10:46 AM
This trade has echos of the Garcia trade...feels like we overpaid but only time will tell. The Garcia trade turned out to be a complete steal.

No doubt we have improved the team for 2008...and if you're going to resign guys like Dye, AJ, Buehrle along with an aging Thome...you HAVE to go for it now. The real evidence of KW's plan will come with what he can get in return for the current "spare parts" (ie. Uribe and either Crede/Fields).

I don't like any scenario where Swisher has regular time in CF...so I think we still need a CF...and obviously pitching. I don't expect alot our of Richar at 2B...if everyone else produces as expected we can carry his production if he delivers solid defense.

Philosophically....I see more risk for the organization in giving up three of our top prospects than the risk in giving Rowand a 5th year...but that's water under the bridge at this point. KW has definitely upgraded our starting line up and our team chemistry...but the pitching looks pretty scarey.

WisSoxFan
01-04-2008, 10:51 AM
I read through about 700 posts and thought I would give my two cents.

The White Sox are a better team in 2008 today than they were yesterday. Isn't that the idea?

rdivaldi
01-04-2008, 10:52 AM
On a side note, Rdivaldi really really like DLS if he is more concerned with losing him than Gio. He's been touting Gio for the last 3-4 years as a can't miss thing...

I consider DLS to have a higher upside, but Gio to be more likely to succeed at the major league level. I'm very concerned about the state of our farm system. If we are in it come July, we really don't have much to bargain with.

:(:

Frontman
01-04-2008, 10:56 AM
I read through about 700 posts and thought I would give my two cents.

The White Sox are a better team in 2008 today than they were yesterday. Isn't that the idea?

No, quite a few people want the Sox to improve without ever having to give anything up; and it just won't happen.

You got to give to get.

Tragg
01-04-2008, 11:19 AM
I don't like any scenario where Swisher has regular time in CF...so I think we still need a CF...and obviously pitching. I don't expect alot our of Richar at 2B...if everyone else produces as expected we can carry his production if he delivers solid defense.

But a CF is what we need. We have corner outfielders. We have a 1B.
Why continue to use resources for non-needs?
I would certainly hope he's our CF. Owens after all of this? Ugh

TRL
01-04-2008, 11:25 AM
I read through about 700 posts and thought I would give my two cents.

The White Sox are a better team in 2008 today than they were yesterday. Isn't that the idea?

That is the idea, and I'm glad that at least you recognize that. The minor leagues are there to support the big league club whether it be through developing talent or tading it for talent. I could care less that Birmingham and Charlotte are going to have tougher seasons this year because of the trade. Could these young kids become studs? Sure, but we will have to revisit this trade in 2 to 3 years. The thought that we have screwed our 2010 and 2011 teams is completely rediculous.

Obviously no players on any team will be changing teams between now and 2010, so there is absolutely no way the Sox could contend in 2010.

balke
01-04-2008, 11:36 AM
But a CF is what we need. We have corner outfielders. We have a 1B.
Why continue to use resources for non-needs?
I would certainly hope he's our CF. Owens after all of this? Ugh

What CFer would you hope to get with that bundle? Coco Crisp? As stated before, the first plan I heard after Hunter was Johnny Damon. Swisher is obviously much more valuable when you include pay and youth.

I think maybe people are looking too closely at the avg. and dismissing Swisher's play. I honestly can't think of a lot of OFer's better that could be gotten for that package. Do you think that would've landed Rios or Wells? I don't. Swisher+Crede might though.

Sox got a very valuable player for some minor leaguers, and his contract is in good shape. If they really wanted to make another move, they've put themselves in great position. Not even necessarily Swisher, but other players could be moved because he's now on the team.

TomBradley72
01-04-2008, 11:36 AM
But a CF is what we need. We have corner outfielders. We have a 1B.
Why continue to use resources for non-needs?
I would certainly hope he's our CF. Owens after all of this? Ugh

If Swisher is our CF can anyone name a starting CF on a contending team who is worse defensively?

How's he going to look for 9 games at Detroit? or nine games on the turf in Minnesota?

Swisher is not the starting CF on a pennant winning team.

balke
01-04-2008, 11:38 AM
If Swisher is our CF can anyone name a starting CF on a contending team who is worse defensively?

I'd have to see him out there. I doubt he could be any worse than Carl Everett.

jabrch
01-04-2008, 11:45 AM
Not to pick on you, but I absolutely loathe that kind of reasoning. What Danny Wright or any other random bad prospect did is completely independent of what Gio or DLS will do. Prospects are prospects, but eventually KW is going to get burned and burned badly.

That's potentially true. But at the same time, I wouldn't rule out the potential for this deal to not be the one that burns him.

I'm on the fence about it. I was optimistic that despite this year looking ugly, Gio and DLS were going to anchor a 2010 staff that would contend. But Swisher will impact a 2008 lineup that very well could end up contending.

What encouorages me is that Kenny may not be done yet. One or two more good moves and we could be looking at a legitimate contender - after so many were ready to bury this team as recently as yesterday.

The downside is that the farm system went from thin to thinner. But the good news is the team added a young veteran signed reasonably for 4+ years.

Frontman
01-04-2008, 11:55 AM
I'd have to see him out there. I doubt he could be any worse than Carl Everett.


:everett:
"The dinosaurs made me bad. Those fictious, never existing dinosaurs."

Lip Man 1
01-04-2008, 11:56 AM
Steve Rosenbloom has a nice column today on this. His attitude is completely opposite of Phil Rogers.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/rosenblog/2008/01/love-the-one-th.html

Lip

Unregistered
01-04-2008, 12:01 PM
Corwin Malone was all the rage in the Sox 2002 spring training . I can still remember Peter Gammons raving about him.


Malone WAS "all the rage" before falling victim to non-stop shoulder problems and elbow tendonitis. Let's not act like he made his triumphant debut with the Sox and got his brains beat in. The guy had a series of freak injuries and couldn't physically live up to his potential.

What that has to do with DLS or Gio is anyone's guess, but it's a pretty long way to go to prove your point.

To some people on this board, KW cannot win. If the prospects break down and don't succeed, they will espouse that it might not have happened in our organization.
Bottom line, the big league club is better today than yesterday. Tomorrow will be dealt with at a later time.


The White Sox are a better team in 2008 today than they were yesterday. Isn't that the idea?

Again, if we signed a PITCHER for our incredibly shaky rotation or a couple solid bullpen guys, this trade would be a lot easier to get behind. But we emptied out the few great prospects we had (and we did have a few - but ONLY a few, which is why we have a poorly rated farm system. People need to stop making the argument that these prospects couldn't have been that good if they came from our farm teams, as it's the system as a WHOLE that sucks, not every single player in the system) for a high-strikeout slugger who we're asking to play CF—and has only played about 50 games in CF in his career.

We'll love his offense, but as has been said, when we're losing games 9-6 every day, that's not really going to matter. We didn't need yet ANOTHER outfielder (and we certainly didn't need to trade our best prosepects for one) and sure enough, that's what we got.

Now KW needs to do nothing but focus on pitching and sign the Weavers, Colons and Garcias of the league to low-risk, high reward contracts and cross his fingers because we'll probably have a lot more luck going that route than expecting too much out of Contreras or Floyd, who people are way too high on after seem him pitch against September call-up scrubs and teams out of contention.

The Immigrant
01-04-2008, 12:14 PM
Steve Rosenbloom has a nice column today on this. His attitude is completely opposite of Phil Rogers.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/rosenblog/2008/01/love-the-one-th.html

Lip

I found this pretty funny:

A's veteran third baseman Eric Chavez, on what he thought when he heard of the Swisher deal (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/04/SP4PU8UVT.DTL): "I was like, 'Well, we are going young. Wait, Swisher is young!'"

itsnotrequired
01-04-2008, 12:34 PM
We didn't need yet ANOTHER outfielder (and we certainly didn't need to trade our best prosepects for one) and sure enough, that's what we got.

KW trades away outfielders (Reed, Young, Sweeney, etc.) and people *****. KW picks up outfielders and people *****.

:happybday

gogosox16
01-04-2008, 12:40 PM
If Swisher is our CF can anyone name a starting CF on a contending team who is worse defensively?

How's he going to look for 9 games at Detroit? or nine games on the turf in Minnesota?

Swisher is not the starting CF on a pennant winning team.
Oakland got to the ALCS with him in CF so I guess he as the ability to play CF for a playoff team.

Beautox
01-04-2008, 12:41 PM
I love the move.

KW has gone and created a good possibly amazing young ML core. Provided these kids develop KW has created our 2-5 hitters core. Great Work.

Richar, Fields, Swisher, Quentin

The sox have an outside chance to compete next season. If Floyd and Jose pitch like they did at the end of the season and Danks improves on his freshman effort hopefully a 4.50ish ERA campaign, we could be in the thick of things.

Ideally our vets return to career norms, and our rookies continue to progress Richar could put up a 20/20 season from the nine hole. With Swisher moving from Oakland to the south side in our line up look for his numbers to go up across the board.

And if everything falls apart and we're out of it by the ASB we can start moving our vets for more pieces. Either way at least '08 will be entertaining unlike '07.

beckett21
01-04-2008, 12:42 PM
Malone WAS "all the rage" before falling victim to non-stop shoulder problems and elbow tendonitis. Let's not act like he made his triumphant debut with the Sox and got his brains beat in. The guy had a series of freak injuries and couldn't physically live up to his potential.

What that has to do with DLS or Gio is anyone's guess, but it's a pretty long way to go to prove your point.



I think his point is that pitching prospects are far from a sure thing. Either one of those guys could fall victim to an arm injury, and it's all over.

A stretch, perhaps. But history, particularly Sox history, is littered with failed 'can't miss' prospects. Assuming one or both of these guys reach their potential, there is still no guarantee they would have done that here. It's blatantly, painfully obvious that our minor league system/player development system is flawed.

I do think we probably could have gotten more for that pair than Swisher, but we did get a nice impact player who is just reaching his prime. I agree with you 100% that we do need more pitching. I don't know what Kenny has left to deal in order to get that. I am happy to have Nick Swisher though.

spawn
01-04-2008, 12:43 PM
KW trades away outfielders (Reed, Young, Sweeney, etc.) and people *****. KW picks up outfielders and people *****.

:happybday
Last year KW traded an aging pitcher (Garcia) for two prospects (Gio, Floyd), and people *****ed. Obviously, people will ***** no matter what KW does. We should probably be use to this by now. :redneck

batmanZoSo
01-04-2008, 01:00 PM
Okay, here's another example and one who actually made the big league club and was briefly effective.

I remember the first few times I saw Danny Wright pitch. That huge heavy fastball and massive slider made me think the Sox had finally developed a power pitcher ala Clemens. Of course he screwed up his arm and busted out of the league pretty quickly and that's the point. DLS may turn into Pedro Martinez. Good for him if he does. On the other hand he might turn into Danny Wright and never amount to much. That would be a pity for him, but so much can happen and so many things can change in the next 3 years, it's just silly to be bemoaning the loss of even a great young pitching prospect.

On a side note, Rdivaldi really really like DLS if he is more concerned with losing him than Gio. He's been touting Gio for the last 3-4 years as a can't miss thing...

The bottom line is Oakland knows young pitching better than us, period. If that makes me FOBB, so be it, but to me it just means I have eyes. This just further strengthens my opinions on Gio and DLS, whom I was already very high on.

There's a time and a place to trade good prospects for good veterans--Garcia comes to mind. I was thrilled when that went down, but it was a piece we needed to make a run for the division and 14 months later, there was Garcia closing out the World Series. Swisher doesn't do that for us. I'm not sure what he does for us frankly. He's a good player and I like him, but seriously. Maybe he's a gazelle in center and I just had no idea.

Most importantly: Gio and DLS > Olivo and Reed by a long shot.

VeeckAsInWreck
01-04-2008, 01:01 PM
Last year KW traded an aging pitcher (Garcia) for two prospects (Gio, Floyd), and people *****ed. Obviously, people will ***** no matter what KW does. We should probably be use to this by now. :redneck

You can please people some of the time, however that is not the case at WSI.

No matter what Kenny does, people will still complain. I like Swisher, he is a switch hitting version of Aaron Rowand.

This moves puts us in a better position to compete. I am not ready to hand the AL Central crown to anyone yet. That's why they play the games.

Bring on Spring Training!

jabrch
01-04-2008, 01:05 PM
The bottom line is Oakland knows young pitching better than us, period.

They have their share of misses also.


Swisher doesn't do that for us. I'm not sure what he does for us frankly.

I think you can make some guesses. I'd start with the following
1) Get on base
2) Score runs
3) Drive in runs

Most importantly: Gio and DLS > Olivo and Reed by a long shot.

That's nothing more than revisionist history. You were here when Reed was traded. Just go back to any Jeremy Reed discussion from before that move. And Olivo was highly regarded in many circles. The best prospect of those 4 is Jeremy Reed - and it isn't even close.

jabrch
01-04-2008, 01:05 PM
No matter what Kenny does, people will still complain. I like Swisher, he is a switch hitting version of Aaron Rowand.


with more power and a much higher OBP

batmanZoSo
01-04-2008, 01:12 PM
They have their share of misses also.



Every team "has their share of misses." GMAB. :rolleyes:


I think you can make some guesses. I'd start with the following
1) Get on base
2) Score runs
3) Drive in runsThat was covered where I said he was a good player. But I thought we needed a CF, not another in our stockpile of corners. :dunno:


That's nothing more than revisionist history. You were here when Reed was traded. Just go back to any Jeremy Reed discussion from before that move. And Olivo was highly regarded in many circles. The best prospect of those 4 is Jeremy Reed - and it isn't even close.No it's not. Reed hit 400 in a short AA season I believe it was. That was nice, we thought he had some potential, but he had no power. Corner OF's with no power aren't a very hot commodity unless you're Tony Gwynn and you carry a career .338 BA or something approaching that for a number of years.

Olivo, come on. He was a solid platoon catcher with a great arm but to call this revisionist history?

:bs:

soxtalker
01-04-2008, 01:25 PM
I read through about 700 posts and thought I would give my two cents.

The White Sox are a better team in 2008 today than they were yesterday. Isn't that the idea?

No, it's only part of the idea - at least if you think that you'll be a fan after next season. I saw plenty of posts on WSI like this earlier in this decade stating that all they wanted was to win the WS once. Well, we did that, and it sure doesn't look like people have moderated their interest in winning. Tomorrow does come, and it is not unreasonable for people to be thinking about it.

That's not to say it is a bad trade. It is obviously a good move for 2008 unless something unexpected happens -- e.g., Swisher gets hurt in spring training or Gio suddenly makes a surprising jump to the major leagues. I am curious, though, as to what KW is planning to do with the years after 2008. I'd be surprised if he doesn't have some rough plan.

jabrch
01-04-2008, 01:32 PM
That was covered where I said he was a good player. But I thought we needed a CF, not another in our stockpile of corners.

And we got a CF...That's at least what KW is saying publicly. So he wont be the rangiest of CFs, but he isn't as slow as some are trying to portray him.

tstrike2000
01-04-2008, 01:37 PM
And we got a CF...That's at least what KW is saying publicly. So he wont be the rangiest of CFs, but he isn't as slow as some are trying to portray him.

After digesting this trade for a day now, I kinda of like it. DLS and Gio potential aside, Swisher is something we need. With a bonafide third or fourth starter and another reliever, our team is suddenly looking a lot better. It already is with Swisher and Cabrera in the lineup.

spawn
01-04-2008, 01:46 PM
Saw this on another site. Sox fans will love him.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sbQSfvUnjmc

batmanZoSo
01-04-2008, 01:46 PM
And we got a CF...That's at least what KW is saying publicly. So he wont be the rangiest of CFs, but he isn't as slow as some are trying to portray him.

I hope for the best. Whether it's Swisher or Ramirez or even ****ing BA.

It's too early to tell what the lineup will be. I just pray to god that KW gives Ozzie something a hell of a lot more simple than the mess we have now.

Corlose 15
01-04-2008, 01:46 PM
Last year KW traded an aging pitcher (Garcia) for two prospects (Gio, Floyd), and people *****ed. Obviously, people will ***** no matter what KW does. We should probably be use to this by now. :redneck

Its not just that. These people also want the Sox to sign Garcia so he can take away a spot in the rotation from a prospect despite the fact that he's popping the mitt at a good 88mph, or Colon and his health issues, or Weaver and the fact that he sucks.

But will still ***** that KW trades prospects and never lets any develop.:dunno:

TomBradley72
01-04-2008, 01:54 PM
with more power and a much higher OBP

Without the range, the Gold Glove or the All Star appearance and he cost us our top two pitching prospects.

PalehosePlanet
01-04-2008, 02:13 PM
And we got a CF...That's at least what KW is saying publicly. So he wont be the rangiest of CFs, but he isn't as slow as some are trying to portray him.

True, he's a better corner OF'er than Rowand was when we decided to throw him out in CF and give him a chance. Besides, guys like Rowand, and especially Edmonds have proven that you don't have to be a burner to play a solid CF (Remember Gorman Thomas back in the 80's? He had Konerko speed.)

Truthfully though I feel that Quentin should be given first shot in CF; he's an outstanding RF'er with a very good arm. I'd personally like to see if he can handle CF.

MyDogSnores&Fart
01-04-2008, 02:26 PM
Can we please stop comparing DLS to Pedro Martinez?! Pedro Martinez was an absolute phenom. He was pitching in the majors for the Dodgers by 20 years old and he pitched 100 innings and won 10 games while striking out 119 and posting a 2.61 ERA as a 21 year old. Those were 119 major leaguers - not A ballers. Those are better numbers than De Los Santos had in Winston Salem. Come on now guys. He may turn out to be a top of the rotation guy or he may be a power arm in the bullpen or he may be nothing, but to keep comparing him to Pedro Martinez is an insult to Pedro Martinez. Show the guy some respect. Hell, DLS isn't even King Felix Hernandez.

MyDogSnores&Fart
01-04-2008, 02:28 PM
Without the range, the Gold Glove or the All Star appearance and he cost us our top two pitching prospects.
And about 7-8 million dollars less per five years.

ode to veeck
01-04-2008, 02:57 PM
Papers here in SF today are lamenting the loss of Swisher and the onset of another obvious rebuilding phase in Oakland

Maybe they'll be competitive again once they move to the chemical dump in Fremont

mjmcend
01-04-2008, 03:18 PM
Its not just that. These people also want the Sox to sign Garcia so he can take away a spot in the rotation from a prospect despite the fact that he's popping the mitt at a good 88mph, or Colon and his health issues, or Weaver and the fact that he sucks.

But will still ***** that KW trades prospects and never lets any develop.:dunno:

It's a good idea in case these prospects don't pitch well. Floyd, in particular, has not shown much in his time in the majors. Since Kenny has mortgaged the future, it would be wise not to solely rely on Floyd, Danks, and Contreras each having average to good years in 2008. The more arms you have, the more chances that someone will pitch well. You can never have enough pitching.

batmanZoSo
01-04-2008, 03:26 PM
Papers here in SF today are lamenting the loss of Swisher and the onset of another obvious rebuilding phase in Oakland

Maybe they'll be competitive again once they move to the chemical dump in Fremont

They're right, but at least they're going full force with their plan to rebuild whereas we're going half ass with our plan to contend. They have a lot of good young pitching in their system. They should be ready to get knocked out of the playoffs in 2010, but they could have quite an excellent young staff.

mjmcend
01-04-2008, 03:27 PM
Can we please stop comparing DLS to Pedro Martinez?! Pedro Martinez was an absolute phenom. He was pitching in the majors for the Dodgers by 20 years old and he pitched 100 innings and won 10 games while striking out 119 and posting a 2.61 ERA as a 21 year old. Those were 119 major leaguers - not A ballers. Those are better numbers than De Los Santos had in Winston Salem. Come on now guys. He may turn out to be a top of the rotation guy or he may be a power arm in the bullpen or he may be nothing, but to keep comparing him to Pedro Martinez is an insult to Pedro Martinez. Show the guy some respect. Hell, DLS isn't even King Felix Hernandez.

Can we also stop comparing Swisher to Rowand? Swisher is a much better hitter than Rowand, and Rowand's defense is vastly overrated because of his wall-crashing.

Corlose 15
01-04-2008, 03:33 PM
It's a good idea in case these prospects don't pitch well. Floyd, in particular, has not shown much in his time in the majors. Since Kenny has mortgaged the future, it would be wise not to solely rely on Floyd, Danks, and Contreras each having average to good years in 2008. The more arms you have, the more chances that someone will pitch well. You can never have enough pitching.

I'm really not sure its that good of an idea? What are those guys going to provide that Floyd and Danks can't do for you cheaper? Both Garcia and Colon have some pretty big injury issues and save for his playoff run two years ago Weaver has been crap.

Danks showed some moxie at the beginning of the year and I really believe he just gassed out at the end of the year due to the innings. Floyd pitched well to end the year and if he's finally gotten the confidence needed to pitch in the bigs (ability was never the question) then he should improve.

If they don't you've still got Broadway, Egbert, and to a lesser extent Masset, who did well in spot starts last year.

Personally I'd rather go that way that mediocre, or injured older starting pitchers who aren't guaranteed to be any better.

TomBradley72
01-04-2008, 03:41 PM
And about 7-8 million dollars less per five years.

I don't really care about the balance sheet.

I'd rather have Rowand in CF (and have retained the three prospects) with the risk being the 5th year of the contract vs. Swisher in CF and having lost the three prospects....especially if that package could have been used to get another pitcher or 2B at the major league level.

Hitmen77
01-04-2008, 03:47 PM
Can we also stop comparing Swisher to Rowand? Swisher is a much better hitter than Rowand, and Rowand's defense is vastly overrated because of his wall-crashing.

Actually, I'm interested in hearing more about Swisher's defensive abilities in CF. He played 59 games in center last year. Are there any Bay Area Sox fans here who have seen him play CF that could provide some insight?

mjmcend
01-04-2008, 03:50 PM
I'm really not sure its that good of an idea? What are those guys going to provide that Floyd and Danks can't do for you cheaper? Both Garcia and Colon have some pretty big injury issues and save for his playoff run two years ago Weaver has been crap.

Danks showed some moxie at the beginning of the year and I really believe he just gassed out at the end of the year due to the innings. Floyd pitched well to end the year and if he's finally gotten the confidence needed to pitch in the bigs (ability was never the question) then he should improve.

If they don't you've still got Broadway, Egbert, and to a lesser extent Masset, who did well in spot starts last year.

Personally I'd rather go that way that mediocre, or injured older starting pitchers who aren't guaranteed to be any better.

My point in my earlier post is what could it hurt (other than the bottom line for the Sox) if we sign someone to a one year deal? It's not like we are wasting money that could be better spent for 2008. There is no one left but question marks. If Floyd, Danks, or one of the other young pitcher out pitch the veteran, great, and you DFA Colon, Garcia, ect or move them to the bullpen. The only people this hurts are the owners via their bottom line. (And I would argue that the increased chance at competing in 2008 and thus higher revenue is more than worth the financial risk).

We are pinning our hopes on 3 big question marks in the rotation, and I for one, would like to have more pins.

chisox77
01-04-2008, 03:50 PM
Nick Swisher rules!

In fact, "Dude" will now be the main greeting word in the Sox clubhouse.

You know, something like, "Awesome Dude!"

Hey, from now on, he's Dude Swisher!



:cool:

Frater Perdurabo
01-04-2008, 03:51 PM
They're right, but at least they're going full force with their plan to rebuild whereas we're going half ass with our plan to contend. They have a lot of good young pitching in their system. They should be ready to get knocked out of the playoffs in 2010, but they could have quite an excellent young staff.

You have to give Beane some real credit here. If just a few of the prospects he's acquired turn out to be MLB starting pitchers, in 2012 he'll have some young, cheap, excellent players to trade for prospects!
:tongue:

JermaineDye05
01-04-2008, 04:04 PM
I really like the addition of Swisher, but I'm really going to miss Gio and Fautino.

For whoever said Nick and AJ were going to be best friends or enemies, I don't think they'll be enemies. Simply because they have a common enemy in Vicente Padilla, I have to say I rather enjoyed him tackling Padilla.

Foulke You
01-04-2008, 04:19 PM
Gio Gonzalez and De Los Santos are rapidly moving up the charts as the most popular Sox players to never actually put on a White Sox uniform and play a game for us.:tongue:

MCHSoxFan
01-04-2008, 04:22 PM
You can please people some of the time, however that is not the case at WSI.

No matter what Kenny does, people will still complain. I like Swisher, he is a switch hitting version of Aaron Rowand.

This moves puts us in a better position to compete. I am not ready to hand the AL Central crown to anyone yet. That's why they play the games.

Bring on Spring Training!

You said it!!! :D:

jdm2662
01-04-2008, 04:33 PM
Gio Gonzalez and De Los Santos are rapidly moving up the charts as the most popular Sox players to never actually put on a White Sox uniform and play a game for us.:tongue:

No one beats Jeremy Reed. Miguel Olivo did play for the Sox, but he was probably more missed than any other Sox player sans Rowand. :D:

batmanZoSo
01-04-2008, 04:44 PM
You have to give Beane some real credit here. If just a few of the prospects he's acquired turn out to be MLB starting pitchers, in 2012 he'll have some young, cheap, excellent players to trade for prospects!
:tongue:

It's the circle of life..

But seriously, who knows, maybe they get it right this re-build.

Optipessimism
01-04-2008, 04:51 PM
Gio Gonzalez and De Los Santos are rapidly moving up the charts as the most popular Sox players to never actually put on a White Sox uniform and play a game for us.:tongue:

It's funny how every time a prospect is traded, the people who don't follow the minors criticize those who do by bringing up the name of a bust. It gets very old and proves absolutely nothing.

Unregistered
01-04-2008, 04:58 PM
It's funny how every time a prospect is traded, the people who don't follow the minors criticize those who do by bringing up the name of a bust. It gets very old and proves absolutely nothing.

Hello, exactly.

"Scott Ruffcorn was supposed to be the next big thing and we all saw how that turned out" is probably one of the dumber arguments there is. It's right up there next to "If our farm system is so bad, how good can Gio be?"

Obviously no one here is a fortune teller so we don't know how these prospects will turn out, but that doesn't mean they're going to be busts because Corwin Malone got hurt and never lived up to his hype.

batmanZoSo
01-04-2008, 05:00 PM
Not to mention 9 out of 10 prospects are busts, period.

Hitmen77
01-04-2008, 05:04 PM
It is interesting to see these trade threads evolve on WSI. For the Garcia to Philly, McCarthy to Texas and this trade, it seems like the pattern has been utter anger and disappointment at first and then after a few hours, cooler heads prevail and the trade doesn't seem to terrible.

My thoughts on this trade? It's definitely risky long-term. If either Gio or DLS turn out to be successful MLB pitchers, we may look back in 2010 or 2011 and curse KW for this trade. But, taking risks are part of the job for a successful GM.

I think some people here have made a good point that it's not like we traded away a bunch of prospects for an old player who will soon be a free agent. Swisher appears to still be on the upswing in his career and could be a valuable part of the Sox lineup for years to come.

Now we have a lot of guys in our lineup who are unproven, but with a lot of potential upside. I'll be very interested in seeing how Swisher (he's not unproven, but does still have a lot of upside), Quentin, Fields, and Richar
perform for us beginning this spring. 2008 could be a very interesting year for us.

Daver
01-04-2008, 05:04 PM
Hello, exactly.

"Scott Ruffcorn was supposed to be the next big thing and we all saw how that turned out" is probably one of the dumber arguments there is. It's right up there next to "If our farm system is so bad, how good can Gio be?"

Obviously no one here is a fortune teller so we don't know how these prospects will turn out, but that doesn't mean they're going to be busts because Corwin Malone got hurt and never lived up to his hype.

Look at the track record for the White Sox developing pitchers, it just isn't good, in fact, it is brutal. If your system can't develop the talent, it is worth more to trade it than have it waste away.

munchman33
01-04-2008, 05:11 PM
Look at the track record for the White Sox developing pitchers, it just isn't good, in fact, it is brutal. If your system can't develop the talent, it is worth more to trade it than have it waste away.

Yeah, that's definately a better idea than fixing the problem and spending more money on player development.

Unregistered
01-04-2008, 05:18 PM
Look at the track record for the White Sox developing pitchers, it just isn't good, in fact, it is brutal. If your system can't develop the talent, it is worth more to trade it than have it waste away.

But just because the White Sox aren't good at developing pitchers doesn't mean the good ones still don't shine through. Buehrle and Garland (after 2 years in the Sox minors) came through our system and seemed to do alright.

According to the powers that rank those sort of things, Gio and DLS went from being #1 and 2 in the Sox minors, to being #2 and 3 in the A's farm system. So they weren't just the tallest midgets, these guys have a ton of potential.

itsnotrequired
01-04-2008, 05:22 PM
Hello, exactly.

"Scott Ruffcorn was supposed to be the next big thing and we all saw how that turned out" is probably one of the dumber arguments there is. It's right up there next to "If our farm system is so bad, how good can Gio be?"

Obviously no one here is a fortune teller so we don't know how these prospects will turn out, but that doesn't mean they're going to be busts because Corwin Malone got hurt and never lived up to his hype.

Also, 95%+ of the people bemoaning minor league player trades know nothing of the players.

Daver
01-04-2008, 05:29 PM
But just because the White Sox aren't good at developing pitchers doesn't mean the good ones still don't shine through. Buehrle and Garland (after 2 years in the Sox minors) came through our system and seemed to do alright.

According to the powers that rank those sort of things, Gio and DLS went from being #1 and 2 in the Sox minors, to being #2 and 3 in the A's farm system. So they weren't just the tallest midgets, these guys have a ton of potential.

So did Kris Honel, Ryan Wing, Danny Wright, Rod Bolton, Kip Wells, and Corwin Malone, all failures, some of whom may have flourished given better development. I would love to see the Sox upgrade their player development, I see no sign that they will, they seem to prefer buying proven talent with their farm system.

Frater Perdurabo
01-04-2008, 05:35 PM
So did Kris Honel, Ryan Wing, Danny Wright, Rod Bolton, Kip Wells, and Corwin Malone, all failures, some of whom may have flourished given better development. I would love to see the Sox upgrade their player development, I see no sign that they will, they seem to prefer buying proven talent with their farm system.

Daver, do you think the Sox:

A. know they are not good at developing players and aren't willing to upgrade that department; OR

B. don't know that they are not good and developing players?

If it's A, is it because they are stubbornly loyal to their current employees, or because they are too cheap to hire proven talent in that department?

Thank you for your insights!

batmanZoSo
01-04-2008, 05:42 PM
If the shoe were on the other foot, I would be thrilled at what we got. I think most of you would be too.