PDA

View Full Version : More outfield talk


pmck003
12-24-2007, 02:06 PM
I searched and there was a thread a few months back about Kenny Lofton. Most of the thread was negative towards him. Of course he is old, some posters questioned his defense, and more than one post talked about him having a bad attitude.

That said, I wonder if anyone would change their mind based on the current situation (assuming that there is no other additions/subtractions to the OF). Statistically, he seems like a good fit. I would guess that he could post an above 350 OBP if he played in favorable matchups only (.367 in 490 AB playing for tex and cleveland last year). His baserunning skills are still above average (above 75% success rate in sb last year).

Lofton would give the Sox a known producer in the OF. I think he showed last year and especially in the playoffs that he is aging well enough to be productive in a more limited role.

If you agree with the above, my questions are:

1. What is his status? - all I could find was that he had a one-year contract last year. Does he still want to play and at what cost? (last year he had a 6 million dollar contract)

2. Would he be agreeable to reduced playing time in what might be a non-consistant Ozzie lineup? -or, would his attitude hurt the team? Does he grind?

The way I see it, if the Sox find themselves contending then he could have a more prominent role if one of the OF spots is struggling. If the Sox find themselves out of it, some team wouldn't mind taking Lofton. The Sox might even get a little something in return for him too.

WhiteSox5187
12-24-2007, 02:17 PM
I don't think he got along well with everybody in 2002 and I'm hesistant to rely on those forty year old legs to leadoff anymore...but I am not sure what other alternatives we have in terms of a veteran solid leadoff guy...I don't think Alexi can leadoff, we might have to cross our fingers and hope for the best out of Jerry Owens simply because he might be the best option we have available to us.

roadrunner
12-24-2007, 02:18 PM
I remember that thread well. I couldn't believe what I read. "Clubhouse cancer", ""prima dona" and "keep him away" pretty much sum up the attitude.
Any cursory look at KLo's career would reveal such assertions as utter nonsense and basic player hating. He's been to the post-season almost every year this decade. He has proven to be a valuable midseason addtion to every team that he's been dealt. Even if he is a jerk or whatever else you may think, he gets the job done.

I challenge anyone to provide evidence to the contrary.

Brian26
12-24-2007, 02:44 PM
I remember that thread well. I couldn't believe what I read. "Clubhouse cancer", ""prima dona" and "keep him away" pretty much sum up the attitude.
Any cursory look at KLo's career would reveal such assertions as utter nonsense and basic player hating. He's been to the post-season almost every year this decade. He has proven to be a valuable midseason addtion to every team that he's been dealt. Even if he is a jerk or whatever else you may think, he gets the job done.

I challenge anyone to provide evidence to the contrary.

After what Lofton pulled with the Sox in 2002, I would never consider bringing him back again under any circumstances. I've never seen a player effectively quit on his team the way Lofton did in May of June of 2002 when the Sox started struggling a bit. You can look up the atrocious numbers on your own, but he batted something like .140 for the month of June with one stolen base. This was around the time the Sox players were battling with Von Joshua. I'm not sure if Lofton was trying to prove a point, but the lack of hustle was pretty apparent.

roadrunner
12-24-2007, 03:15 PM
After what Lofton pulled with the Sox in 2002, I would never consider bringing him back again under any circumstances. I've never seen a player effectively quit on his team the way Lofton did in May of June of 2002 when the Sox started struggling a bit. You can look up the atrocious numbers on your own, but he batted something like .140 for the month of June with one stolen base. This was around the time the Sox players were battling with Von Joshua. I'm not sure if Lofton was trying to prove a point, but the lack of hustle was pretty apparent.

I don't dispute your account, and I probably agreed with you at the time. I didn't care for him then either. Based on what he has done since then, however, I have changed my mind about him and now give him the benefit of the doubt. (I don't mean to suggest that you should - I totally understand your sentiment. If it wasn't for 2005 I'd still be holding a grudge against konerko for his horrible 2003)

DumpJerry
12-24-2007, 05:02 PM
I remember that thread well. I couldn't believe what I read. "Clubhouse cancer", ""prima dona" and "keep him away" pretty much sum up the attitude.
Any cursory look at KLo's career would reveal such assertions as utter nonsense and basic player hating. He's been to the post-season almost every year this decade. He has proven to be a valuable midseason addtion to every team that he's been dealt. Even if he is a jerk or whatever else you may think, he gets the job done.

I challenge anyone to provide evidence to the contrary.
Nothing you said is evidence that his reputation of being the biggest clubhouse jerk in MLB is undeserved. There is a reason why he keeps getting traded and not signed by his current team(s) with the exception of the Indians. Let him rot by the Lake.

Big Hurt #35=HOF
12-24-2007, 11:33 PM
Is he still alive?????

roadrunner
12-25-2007, 02:39 AM
Nothing you said is evidence that his reputation of being the biggest clubhouse jerk in MLB is undeserved. There is a reason why he keeps getting traded and not signed by his current team(s) with the exception of the Indians. Let him rot by the Lake.

how about this:

cleveland 95-99, 01 - first place
chicago cubs 03 - acquired midseason and they reach postseason
yankees 04 - postseason
phillies 05 - second place
dodgers 06 - postseason
indians 07 - acquired midseason and they win division


Additionally:

1. Unless you're trying to date him - who cares if he's a jerk?

2. Maybe he moves around because contending teams always want him. It's not like he's been cashing paychecks on crap teams.

3. If anything, if he is a jerk then maybe teams get good deals on him because of it. That seemed to be the case when we signed A.J.

DumpJerry
12-25-2007, 08:25 AM
how about this:

cleveland 95-99, 01 - first place
chicago cubs 03 - acquired midseason and they reach postseason
yankees 04 - postseason
phillies 05 - second place
dodgers 06 - postseason
indians 07 - acquired midseason and they win division


Additionally:

1. Unless you're trying to date him - who cares if he's a jerk?

2. Maybe he moves around because contending teams always want him. It's not like he's been cashing paychecks on crap teams.

3. If anything, if he is a jerk then maybe teams get good deals on him because of it. That seemed to be the case when we signed A.J.
How about linking cause and effect? He is one of 25 guys (more than that during the course of the whole season) on a team. I'm sure he is not 80%+ responsible for some of his teams making the playoffs. He was cashing paychecks from a crap team last year, bu the way. The Texas Rangers.

The Giants labelled AJ a "cancer" because Brett Tomko was a lazy piece of **** who did not like AJ's intensity. The Twins did not complain about him like the Giants did (a team, by the way, which kept welcoming back Barroid over and over).

Big Hurt #35=HOF
12-25-2007, 09:56 AM
how about this:

cleveland 95-99, 01 - first place
chicago cubs 03 - acquired midseason and they reach postseason
yankees 04 - postseason
phillies 05 - second place
dodgers 06 - postseason
indians 07 - acquired midseason and they win division


Additionally:

1. Unless you're trying to date him - who cares if he's a jerk?

2. Maybe he moves around because contending teams always want him. It's not like he's been cashing paychecks on crap teams.

3. If anything, if he is a jerk then maybe teams get good deals on him because of it. That seemed to be the case when we signed A.J.

Bottom line the guy is 2 old - What does getting him do for us?? Are you saying if we add Kenny Lofton we will be that much better of a team this year? Maybe a little, Lofton isn't that bad, I just don't see the point. He might be a decent fit for the right team at the right time, but 2008, NO THANKS!

pmck003
12-25-2007, 11:43 AM
Bottom line the guy is 2 old - What does getting him do for us?? Are you saying if we add Kenny Lofton we will be that much better of a team this year? Maybe a little, Lofton isn't that bad, I just don't see the point. He might be a decent fit for the right team at the right time, but 2008, NO THANKS!

He'd be doing alot if Owens/whoever else struggles leading off, and statistically speaking I think he would make the Sox a much better team in that case. Considering what some of you have said about 2002, he definitley has some risk to him though. He would be somewhat of a default mentor to the OF kids and I dunno if it would be worth having someone with his type of attitude to model after. Being a jerk is one thing, but giving up and not playing hard wouldn't be acceptable.

roadrunner
12-25-2007, 04:55 PM
How about linking cause and effect? He is one of 25 guys (more than that during the course of the whole season) on a team. I'm sure he is not 80%+ responsible for some of his teams making the playoffs. He was cashing paychecks from a crap team last year, bu the way. The Texas Rangers.

The Giants labelled AJ a "cancer" because Brett Tomko was a lazy piece of **** who did not like AJ's intensity. The Twins did not complain about him like the Giants did (a team, by the way, which kept welcoming back Barroid over and over).

1. I'm not sure what point you think you've made with the 80 percent thing but the last time I checked the centerfielder and leadoff hitter are usually important parts of the team - especially when they are the same player.
2. Since you brought it up last year - the Indians acquired KLo midseason and he helped them reach the postseason (again)
3. Your argument regarding AJ sorta goes along with what I'm saying: reputations are often undeserved and as long as he's helping your team - who cares.
4. What the hell does Barroid have to do with this discussion?

DumpJerry
12-25-2007, 06:03 PM
1. I'm not sure what point you think you've made with the 80 percent thing but the last time I checked the centerfielder and leadoff hitter are usually important parts of the team - especially when they are the same player.
2. Since you brought it up last year - the Indians acquired KLo midseason and he helped them reach the postseason (again)
3. Your argument regarding AJ sorta goes along with what I'm saying: reputations are often undeserved and as long as he's helping your team - who cares.
4. What the hell does Barroid have to do with this discussion?
1. Your leadoff hitter might leadoff only one time during a game (1st Inning).
2. The Indians' had lights-out starting pitching and more than one rookie who played well above rookie expectations. They were rocking before Lofton arrived.
3. With the exception of Indians, it seems like every team that has had the pleasure of Mr. Lofton being on its 25 man roster has regretted having him on board. It is only the Giants that bad-mouthed AJ.
4. Falling in love with jerks like Barroid shows how dysfunctional the Giants are. They dumped AJ and kept AJ. Who went to the World Series after that?

As another poster mentioned above, how many rings does your hero have? He is overrated and too old and a prima donna. If he does get his way off the field, he throws a temper tantrum and tells the team to **** off. Great guy to have around.

roadrunner
12-25-2007, 07:08 PM
3. With the exception of Indians, it seems like every team that has had the pleasure of Mr. Lofton being on its 25 man roster has regretted having him on board.


Oh really?

Even if you only follow chicago baseball - you would know that he was instrumental in helping the 2003 Cubs reach the postseason. (in addition to the others i listed)

That's okay - ignore the facts and keep playa hatin.

DumpJerry
12-25-2007, 07:33 PM
Oh really?

Even if you only follow chicago baseball - you would know that he was instrumental in helping the 2003 Cubs reach the postseason. (in addition to the others i listed)

That's okay - ignore the facts and keep playa hatin.
...and the Cubs couldn't get rid him fast enough. To save him from being shot by his teammates.

santo=dorf
12-25-2007, 07:40 PM
...and the Cubs couldn't get rid him fast enough. To save him from being shot by his teammates.
Last I recall, his problem was only with Sosa. Baker loved him and said he was his kid's favorite player.

Is that really a surprise, or are you actually going to defend Sosa?

DumpJerry
12-25-2007, 07:53 PM
Last I recall, his problem was only with Sosa. Baker loved him and said he was his kid's favorite player.

Is that really a surprise, or are you actually going to defend Sosa?
If a player commited murder upon an innocent child on his way to the ballpark, Dusty would tell him to shake it off and get out there and play.

DumpJerry
12-25-2007, 08:04 PM
11 different teams in 16 years. Sounds like somebody likes him.

Brian26
12-25-2007, 08:06 PM
how about this:

cleveland 95-99, 01 - first place
chicago cubs 03 - acquired midseason and they reach postseason
yankees 04 - postseason
phillies 05 - second place
dodgers 06 - postseason
indians 07 - acquired midseason and they win division


The ironic part of this post is that you failed to mention the best example that would have helped your argument, the 2002 Giants. :redneck

I think any correlation between Lofton and the teams' success listed above is coincidental at worse and ancillary at best. Hell, Lofton was the fourth outfielder for the Yankees in '04. The Phillies finished in second place in '05, so that's a worthless argument. The Indians platooned him in LF last year.

I agree that between '95-'99, Lofton was a difference maker. That is no longer the case. He'd be filling up a roster spot I'd much rather see Anderson or Sweeney in.

Brian26
12-25-2007, 08:08 PM
Sounds like somebody likes him.

At least he has one fan in the Roadrunner. :D:

DumpJerry
12-25-2007, 08:09 PM
The ironic part of this post is that you failed to mention the best example that would have helped your argument, the 2002 Giants. :redneck

I think any correlation between Lofton and the teams' success listed above is coincidental at worse and ancillary at best. Hell, Lofton was the fourth outfielder for the Yankees in '04. The Phillies finished in second place in '05, so that's a worthless argument. The Indians platooned him in LF last year.

I agree that between '95-'99, Lofton was a difference maker. That is no longer the case. He'd be filling up a roster spot I'd much rather see Anderson or Sweeney in.
Welcome to the Kenny Lofton Haters Club, bro.:redneck

guillen4life13
12-25-2007, 08:17 PM
I don't have that strong a recollection of Lofton being a clubhouse cancer. Are there any articles from the era? I don't dispute it, but I was around and a fan at that time (2002) and maybe my memory is just failing me.

Big Hurt #35=HOF
12-25-2007, 08:17 PM
Oh really?

Even if you only follow chicago baseball - you would know that he was instrumental in helping the 2003 Cubs reach the postseason. (in addition to the others i listed)

That's okay - ignore the facts and keep playa hatin.

2003 scrubs=LOL!!!!!

Lofton was NOT the reason the Indians won the division last year, what is your deal with Lofton? - What team did he help win the W.S??? What team would not have won their division without him???

Brian26
12-25-2007, 08:18 PM
Welcome to the Kenny Lofton Haters Club, bro.:redneck

Don't hate the playa; hate the game.

:thumbsup:

santo=dorf
12-25-2007, 08:40 PM
11 different teams in 16 years. Sounds like somebody likes him.
...and on the other side it shows that plenty of teams are always interested in the guy and think he can help them in the stretch run.

soxtalker
12-25-2007, 09:15 PM
It is an interesting debate, but has there been any indication that KW is considering Loften? I don't think so. Now, that doesn't mean that KW wouldn't consider him -- I don't recall Quentin being mentioned on WSI. But I don't really see the fit. KW seems to be looking at not only 2008, but also beyond. Except for OC (possibly), the players he's acquired are all more than 1-year commitments. KW seems perfectly willing to let Owen and Anderson battle it out for the CF position.

DumpJerry
12-25-2007, 09:28 PM
...and on the other side it shows that plenty of teams are always interested in the guy and think he can help them in the stretch run.
Hey, even Andy Gonzalez got a contract.

If he (Lofton) is so good to a team's post season chances, why won't someone hold onto him?

gogosox16
12-25-2007, 10:48 PM
Hey, even Andy Gonzalez got a contract.

If he (Lofton) is so good to a team's post season chances, why won't someone hold onto him?
Cause teams don't need him for the whole season, they only need him from September till October/November.:smile:

areilly
12-25-2007, 11:46 PM
2003 scrubs=LOL!!!!!

Lofton was NOT the reason the Indians won the division last year, what is your deal with Lofton? - What team did he help win the W.S??? What team would not have won their division without him???

Yeah! And what team did Johan Santana, Alex Rodriguez, Ichiro Suzuki, Ryan Howard, Vlad Guerrero or even our own Jim Thome ever help win a World Series either?!? NO ONE, that's who. How many rings do those guys have? NONE, that's how many. What a bunch of losers. FRANK'S GOT A RING BABY!!! YEAH BABY!!! 2005 BABY!!! WOOOO!!!!!!

Anyway...

Like him or not, Lofton has put up some great seasons in his career. Now, when the Tribe was taking the ALC by 30 games, it's hard to say if he single-handedly carried any team to October. Was he instrumental? I'd say so. I suppose by bending the right statistics you could say Cleveland finishes second in 2001 without him, but that'd be pushing it.

Would he help a team like the current edition of the Sox very much? Probably not. He's a cog, not an engine.

Big Hurt #35=HOF
12-26-2007, 08:15 AM
...and on the other side it shows that plenty of teams are always interested in the guy and think he can help them in the stretch run.

Are the SOX in the stretch run??

santo=dorf
12-26-2007, 09:43 AM
Are the SOX in the stretch run??
I've been waiting for this post. I'm not arguing for the Sox to pick up Lofton.

I'm saying the argument of "he doesn't have a ring" is Mariotti like and ranks right up there with how many games a pitcher wins in a season.

I guess Timo Perez is a better option than Barry Bonds for LF in 2008, eh?

spiffie
12-26-2007, 10:17 AM
I've been waiting for this post. I'm not arguing for the Sox to pick up Lofton.

I'm saying the argument of "he doesn't have a ring" is Mariotti like and ranks right up there with how many games a pitcher wins in a season.

I guess Timo Perez is a better option than Barry Bonds for LF in 2008, eh?
Well, Timo is less likely to be incarcerated during the season, so he might be the better choice.

DumpJerry
12-26-2007, 10:46 AM
I guess Timo Perez is a better option than Barry Bonds for LF in 2008, eh?
A paraplegic on life support is a better option than Barroid for LF.

Big Hurt #35=HOF
12-26-2007, 04:32 PM
I've been waiting for this post. I'm not arguing for the Sox to pick up Lofton.

I'm saying the argument of "he doesn't have a ring" is Mariotti like and ranks right up there with how many games a pitcher wins in a season.

I guess Timo Perez is a better option than Barry Bonds for LF in 2008, eh?

Mariotti Like-NO!! He is a catfish with a wig! You are taking my point out of content. I am saying no Lofton and I am saying the only way teams try to get him is when they are "in it" and feel is is the missing piece, and with all of the chances, with all of the playoff teams no WS winner. OK buddy!

Save McCuddy's
12-26-2007, 05:34 PM
Why didn't we sign Lofton in '06 when he was available as always?

SoxNation05
12-26-2007, 06:32 PM
Why didn't we sign Lofton in '06 when he was available as always?
Scott Podsednik.

chisox77
12-26-2007, 07:09 PM
Kenny Lofton became Willie Mays Hayes, didn't he?

Save McCuddy's
12-28-2007, 10:13 AM
Scott Podsednik.

Yah -- but Scotty was hurt right off the bat in Spring Training and Lofton was still out there. Plus -- we're talking about center field. There was no reason why Pods and Lofton couldn't have coexisted whether Scotty was healthy or not. We needed a veteran who could at least platoon with BA to give him some cushion as he broke into the bigs.

HomeFish
12-28-2007, 02:43 PM
Lofton's business strategy is to sign with crappy teams and then get traded to a contender mid-season. This is why his teams always go to the postseason; because he signs offseason contracts that pretty much ensure he gets traded to a good team.

SOXSINCE'70
12-28-2007, 05:09 PM
Kenny Lofton became Willie Mays Hayes, didn't he?

I always thought he was Willie Mays Hayes.
(No teal needed).

tick53
12-30-2007, 09:01 AM
I searched and there was a thread a few months back about Kenny Lofton. Most of the thread was negative towards him. Of course he is old, some posters questioned his defense, and more than one post talked about him having a bad attitude.

That said, I wonder if anyone would change their mind based on the current situation (assuming that there is no other additions/subtractions to the OF). Statistically, he seems like a good fit. I would guess that he could post an above 350 OBP if he played in favorable matchups only (.367 in 490 AB playing for tex and cleveland last year). His baserunning skills are still above average (above 75% success rate in sb last year).

Lofton would give the Sox a known producer in the OF. I think he showed last year and especially in the playoffs that he is aging well enough to be productive in a more limited role.

If you agree with the above, my questions are:

1. What is his status? - all I could find was that he had a one-year contract last year. Does he still want to play and at what cost? (last year he had a 6 million dollar contract)

2. Would he be agreeable to reduced playing time in what might be a non-consistant Ozzie lineup? -or, would his attitude hurt the team? Does he grind?

The way I see it, if the Sox find themselves contending then he could have a more prominent role if one of the OF spots is struggling. If the Sox find themselves out of it, some team wouldn't mind taking Lofton. The Sox might even get a little something in return for him too.

The only team that Lofton ever sucked with was the White Sox. No Thanks.