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View Full Version : Sox sign Alexei Ramirez


Sockinchisox
12-21-2007, 05:02 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3165277

Edit: For those who don't know, Alexei Ramirez was a star in Cuba, he recently defected to the DR, he plays CF, 2B, and I think SS.

eriqjaffe
12-21-2007, 05:04 PM
WHEN'S KENNY GONNA DO SOMETHING?

SoxNation05
12-21-2007, 05:07 PM
WOW i am happy is this official.

The Critic
12-21-2007, 05:07 PM
Just judging by that article, it seems like Ramirez can be a very versatile player for the Sox.
I don't know how "exciting" this acquisition is, I just hope he helps the team.

oeo
12-21-2007, 05:08 PM
Finally something to get excited about. :D:

Scottiehaswheels
12-21-2007, 05:08 PM
Me too.. wonder if this will help Jose as well?

ksimpson14
12-21-2007, 05:08 PM
Excellent! I had forgotten about him

SoxNation05
12-21-2007, 05:09 PM
I guess KW is going to go under the radar.

HITMEN OF 77
12-21-2007, 05:10 PM
:KW
"Merry Christmas"

SoxNation05
12-21-2007, 05:11 PM
I know he is going to probably play CF most of the time but will he bat leadoff? Anyone know how much money?

WhiteSox5187
12-21-2007, 05:12 PM
No ripping Kenny from me today! THIS is a great aquistion! I was just thinking about him today. The kid is what, in his early twenties? I wonder if he is ready to play at the big league level...this is just a great move. If Cabrera doesn't re-sign he can play short, he can play center, he can play second if Richar sucks...and he's a LONG term solution! Great move. I hope he can help right away.

Sockinchisox
12-21-2007, 05:13 PM
Here is the only video of him in action (I think).

http://youtube.com/watch?v=o81usn3BtKA

mjmcend
12-21-2007, 05:14 PM
Ramírez hit .332 with 87 home runs and 391 RBIs in seven seasons in Cuba with Pinar del Río. In 2006, he hit .335 with 68 RBIs and led the league with 20 homers.Here are a couple of links discussing Ramírez.


BA equates the Cuban leauge to short season A ball.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=597

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/09/alexei-ramirez-.html

I really like signing a 26 year old to a four year deal.

oeo
12-21-2007, 05:15 PM
I know he is going to probably play CF most of the time but will he bat leadoff? Anyone know how much money?

Don't get ahead of yourself. He may not even make the team out of Spring Training. We still need a centerfielder, but he'll be a good insurance policy if CF or 2B become a problem.

Frater Perdurabo
12-21-2007, 05:18 PM
I really, really like this signing.

I imagine that if he can play CF, he has at least above-average speed. Does anyone know how he is at running the bases? How about stealing bases? Does he have a good eye? Does he take a fair share of walks? Could he be a respectable leadoff hitter? If so, that would mean that the Sox really would not have a hole anywhere in the lineup; Richar could be brought along slowly as the #9 hitter.

esbrechtel
12-21-2007, 05:20 PM
I will be interested to see this guy in action...

SoxNation05
12-21-2007, 05:23 PM
Does this make Uribe gone?

KRS1
12-21-2007, 05:28 PM
This is pretty awesome news right before Festivus. I was really hoping we would get him, but not getting my hopes up too high because I expected one of the big money tossers to just overpay to get him in their system. He looked pretty damn good in the WBC, and definitely has some wheels, so here's to hoping he can make the transition to the MLB, and quickly. Not a bad consolation prize IMO, even if it isn't a sure thing at all. I know someone will say I'm getting too excited about this, but why the hell not get excited over it?

Tragg
12-21-2007, 05:30 PM
Does this make Uribe gone?
I doubt it affects the status - they were shopping him before the signing and will continue to do so. No reason to give him away now - they may catch a desperate team in the spring to send Uribe to.

I really hope this guy is a good player and can play at least one of the positions like a pro. I'm tired of the utility players that play 3 positions poorly - we need some players who can play like major leaguers when the injuries happan and to give starters rest.

CubsfansareDRUNK
12-21-2007, 05:31 PM
YES! This is great news!

California Sox
12-21-2007, 05:33 PM
This is great news. A guy who can play ss, cf, and 2b must be a pretty good athlete. If he could stick at ss... Oh well, if he helps us anywhere, I'd take it.

Even though he was one of the best players in the Cuban League, I wouldn't be surprised if he needed some time in the minors to adjust to the US style of play. It's a huge jump from what looked like an all-dirt field to the major leagues.

But maybe he can be for 2008 what Iguchi was for 2005.

Frater Perdurabo
12-21-2007, 05:36 PM
But maybe he can be for 2008 what Iguchi was for 2005.

That would be fantastic.

Tragg
12-21-2007, 05:38 PM
But maybe he can be for 2008 what Iguchi was for 2005.
Wouldn't complain about that, but what Podsednik was would be better. Can this guy get on base? Any speed?

cws05champ
12-21-2007, 05:49 PM
Great!! Now we have 3 shortstops!

Seriously though, I hope he can show some good flashes early this year and make a difference. Hopefully he can be a high avg, OBP guy eventually.

SoxNation05
12-21-2007, 05:50 PM
Great!! Now we have 3 shortstops!

Seriously though, I hope he can show some good flashes early this year and make a difference. Hopefully he can be a high avg, OBP guy eventually.
Yea but he definetly has some power as he was the HR leader in Cuba.

broker3d
12-21-2007, 06:02 PM
I heard we may be on the verge of signing Cuban 2B/SS/CF Alexi Ramirez. Expected to play CF for us.

thedudeabides
12-21-2007, 06:03 PM
This is really good news. Hopefully he can fill a hole. It'll be interesting to see how he does in the spring.

Did anyone hear financial terms yet?

cws05champ
12-21-2007, 06:03 PM
Does this mean the Crisp deal is dead? It wouldn't really make sense to sign this guy if Crisp were here, especially if they are serious about signing O. Cabrera long term and Richar at 2B.

CubsfansareDRUNK
12-21-2007, 06:05 PM
Check the clubhouse.

EMachine10
12-21-2007, 06:07 PM
A lot of people here seem to have him playing SS, but I see this more of a CF signing and a solid backup plan if Richar fails at 2B. I don't see them signing him to take the SS position away from the guy they traded a SP for. Unless, of course, they unload Cabrera for something.

oeo
12-21-2007, 06:07 PM
Does this mean the Crisp deal is dead? It wouldn't really make sense to sign this guy if Crisp were here, especially if they are serious about signing O. Cabrera long term and Richar at 2B.

I hope the Crisp deal was never alive, but we have no idea if Alexei will be able to just jump right into the big leagues. He might need some time in the minors.

I still think they need to acquire a centerfielder. If all goes as planned, you have depth, which is never a bad thing. Better idea to bring somebody in that you know will get the job done than to bank on this guy right now.

JermaineDye05
12-21-2007, 06:09 PM
I hope the Crisp deal was never alive, but we have no idea if Alexei will be able to just jump right into the big leagues. He might need some time in the minors.

I still think they need to acquire a centerfielder. If all goes as planned, you have depth, which is never a bad thing.

I wouldn't mind making the Crisp deal, because he'd be solid insurance for the team and having Michael Bowden would help the team greatly IMO. It all depends on who the sox would be giving up though.

...
12-21-2007, 06:13 PM
How many games do they play in they Cuban league each season???

KyWhiSoxFan
12-21-2007, 06:25 PM
How old is this guy?

And any guesses on how much the Sox paid him?

Lukin13
12-21-2007, 06:27 PM
supposedly he is 26 and we have no idea on contract.

I'll bite and guess 4 yrs 20 million.

CWSRULE
12-21-2007, 06:30 PM
supposedly he is 26 and we have no idea on contract.

I'll bite and guess 4 yrs 20 million.

Levine said four-years, $4.75m TOTAL - not per year.

Sockinchisox
12-21-2007, 06:32 PM
GREAT contract.

JB98
12-21-2007, 06:34 PM
Solid signing. Good job, KW.

See, jabrch, it is possible to make Sox fans happy. :cool:

TheOldRoman
12-21-2007, 06:34 PM
This is pretty awesome news right before Festivus. I was really hoping we would get him, but not getting my hopes up too high because I expected one of the big money tossers to just overpay to get him in their system. He looked pretty damn good in the WBC, and definitely has some wheels, so here's to hoping he can make the transition to the MLB, and quickly. Not a bad consolation prize IMO, even if it isn't a sure thing at all. I know someone will say I'm getting too excited about this, but why the hell not get excited over it?
Another Festivus miracle!

JB98
12-21-2007, 06:35 PM
A lot of people here seem to have him playing SS, but I see this more of a CF signing and a solid backup plan if Richar fails at 2B. I don't see them signing him to take the SS position away from the guy they traded a SP for. Unless, of course, they unload Cabrera for something.

I agree. I think this is the guy to plug the gaping hole in the outfield. It's great that he's capable of playing infield in a pinch.

drewcifer
12-21-2007, 07:03 PM
Very hard to find any stats on him. Here's some info I pilfered from another message board. The source was apparently some Cuban site but the info is no longer present there, so take that for what it's worth.

Seasons 6

AB 2115
R 385
H 702
2B 119
3B 21
HR 67
avg .332
obp* .394
slg .503
sb 38
cs 29
bb 216
so 242

def inn 4553.2
po 1154
a 996
e 75
% .966
dp 264

*=calculated by (h + bb)/(ab + bb)

Encouraging, even if the Cuban league equates to something like short A. I read somewhere else that he likens himself to a Ozzie Smith style player.

sox1970
12-21-2007, 07:15 PM
Good move, but I'd still like to see the Sox get Crisp if that's still on the table.

The way Ozzie makes out lineups, Ramirez would still get to play a lot--backing up in left and center and second base. Obviously if he outplays everyone, then he'd become an everyday player.

If he's a good shortstop, then he'd be a good Plan B if Cabrera leaves after 08 too. Good move all around.

Frontman
12-21-2007, 07:20 PM
Niiiice deal. That youtube vid shows a solid swing, long through the zone to drive the ball.

I'll be more excited to see how he does once here, but man; I can no longer think KW wasn't going to do anything out of the blue.

comiskey2000
12-21-2007, 07:39 PM
Nothing wrong with a little December excitement. Now we all should be looking forward to seeing what he can do...however old he is.

steely712
12-21-2007, 07:48 PM
I really like the pick up, but I don't think that he will be an enormous impact in his first year. He is gonna need some time to develop to major league pitching. I think he will be great in the long run though, but I still think that this does not solve our leadoff/CF positions which we are in need of. They said that he was primarily a SS who could play CF, I just don't know how he will adjust to the speed difference, I have been hearing that the Cuban league is really not any where close to the mlb. Thanx KW :D:

MCHSoxFan
12-21-2007, 07:52 PM
I know he is going to probably play CF most of the time but will he bat leadoff? Anyone know how much money?

4.75 million

CLUBHOUSE KID
12-21-2007, 07:56 PM
I will be interested to see this guy in action...

Me too!!! This seems good. I read the article on whitesox.com. YEEEESSS!!!!

Link to whitesox.com:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071221&content_id=2335994&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

CLUBHOUSE KID
12-21-2007, 07:58 PM
Yea but he definetly has some power as he was the HR leader in Cuba.

Think of The Cell. HR hitter ballpark.

It's Dankerific
12-21-2007, 08:04 PM
I'm curious if the Contreras (and same agent) situation helped us sign him. if he turns out to be a good player, we can right off some more of Contreras' salary as our adjustment volunteer ;)

Domeshot17
12-21-2007, 08:05 PM
Yyyesssssss

This Was The Guy I Wanted Most. He Has A Chance To Be A Real Star!!!!!!!!!!!


Fantastic Move, Kenny, You Are Back!!!

jabrch
12-21-2007, 08:08 PM
Solid signing. Good job, KW.

See, jabrch, it is possible to make Sox fans happy. :cool:


Ya know what is most funny about this JB - I'm tempering my optimism until I see him, even once, in silver and black.

That's not to say he can't be good - but without the history of either college or minors, or even big time HS ball, it is hard for me to get jazzed up about this kid impacting us today.

That said - There's very little downside to this move if the number we are using is right. I'm surprised he was that inexpensive. KW still has money to play with - if there are moves to make.

DickAllen72
12-21-2007, 08:13 PM
Very hard to find any stats on him. Here's some info I pilfered from another message board. The source was apparently some Cuban site but the info is no longer present there, so take that for what it's worth.

sb 38
cs 29

Encouraging, even if the Cuban league equates to something like short A. I read somewhere else that he likens himself to a Ozzie Smith style player.
Apparently he's not a very good baserunner. Probably not the leadoff guy Ozzie and KW have been looking for.

oeo
12-21-2007, 08:15 PM
Apparently he's not a very good baserunner. Probably not the leadoff guy Ozzie and KW have been looking for.

You can be a bad base runner and have the ability to steal bases (see: Owens, Jerry); you can be a great base runner and have difficulty stealing bases. There is no statistic to measure base running ability.

We won't know what kind of base runner he is until we actually see him play.

jabrch
12-21-2007, 08:18 PM
You can be a bad base runner and have the ability to steal bases (see: Owens, Jerry); you can be a great base runner and have difficulty stealing bases. There is no statistic to measure base running ability.

We won't know what kind of base runner he is until we actually see him play.

That is well said - and it holds true for nearly every facet of the game. Outcome measures only tell you a limited part of the story, regardless of what that measure is, or what the story is.

Specifically, however, with the question of his competition it is even harder to guage.

CubsfansareDRUNK
12-21-2007, 08:33 PM
I hate how mlb.com keeps calling him an "exile". Pretty derogatory.

Daver
12-21-2007, 08:34 PM
Ya know what is most funny about this JB - I'm tempering my optimism until I see him, even once, in silver and black.

That's not to say he can't be good - but without the history of either college or minors, or even big time HS ball, it is hard for me to get jazzed up about this kid impacting us today.



Cuba has no other sport than baseball.

WhiteSox5187
12-21-2007, 08:51 PM
Very hard to find any stats on him. Here's some info I pilfered from another message board. The source was apparently some Cuban site but the info is no longer present there, so take that for what it's worth.

Seasons 6

AB 2115
R 385
H 702
2B 119
3B 21
HR 67
avg .332
obp* .394
slg .503
sb 38
cs 29
bb 216
so 242

def inn 4553.2
po 1154
a 996
e 75
% .966
dp 264

*=calculated by (h + bb)/(ab + bb)

Encouraging, even if the Cuban league equates to something like short A. I read somewhere else that he likens himself to a Ozzie Smith style player.
Wait a minute...these are his career stats, right? I got excited when I saw 38 SB but if that's over 6 seasons (I can't believe the kid played 4553.2 innings in one year and hit 67 HRs) that's a little more than six SBs a year with a little more than 10 HRs a year...obviously it's hard to say whether or not these stats are legit (love that AVG and OBP) and we'll find out what we have in him later in ST...obviously he's an improvement and I like the signing but a 10 HR, 6 SB guy isn't really worth that much. Let's see...I've read where he's a 30/30 type guy though.

KyWhiSoxFan
12-21-2007, 08:55 PM
Cuba has no other sport than baseball.

They have bobsled, luge, and figure skating.

drewcifer
12-21-2007, 09:03 PM
Wait a minute...these are his career stats, right? I got excited when I saw 38 SB but if that's over 6 seasons (I can't believe the kid played 4553.2 innings in one year and hit 67 HRs) that's a little more than six SBs a year with a little more than 10 HRs a year...obviously it's hard to say whether or not these stats are legit (love that AVG and OBP) and we'll find out what we have in him later in ST...obviously he's an improvement and I like the signing but a 10 HR, 6 SB guy isn't really worth that much. Let's see...I've read where he's a 30/30 type guy though.

Yes, those are 6 year stats in the Cuban league, as I understand.

It's really hard to tell what you have from aggregrate stats like this (i.e. - did he hit 25 of those 67 last year)?

I have no idea on any kind of trending. But the talk is he has all 5 tools.

I'm really excited to see him in March.

JB98
12-21-2007, 09:05 PM
Wait a minute...these are his career stats, right? I got excited when I saw 38 SB but if that's over 6 seasons (I can't believe the kid played 4553.2 innings in one year and hit 67 HRs) that's a little more than six SBs a year with a little more than 10 HRs a year...obviously it's hard to say whether or not these stats are legit (love that AVG and OBP) and we'll find out what we have in him later in ST...obviously he's an improvement and I like the signing but a 10 HR, 6 SB guy isn't really worth that much. Let's see...I've read where he's a 30/30 type guy though.

4553 innings is about 500 games. That's roughly three major-league seasons worth.

btrain929
12-21-2007, 09:09 PM
Wait a minute...these are his career stats, right? I got excited when I saw 38 SB but if that's over 6 seasons (I can't believe the kid played 4553.2 innings in one year and hit 67 HRs) that's a little more than six SBs a year with a little more than 10 HRs a year...obviously it's hard to say whether or not these stats are legit (love that AVG and OBP) and we'll find out what we have in him later in ST...obviously he's an improvement and I like the signing but a 10 HR, 6 SB guy isn't really worth that much. Let's see...I've read where he's a 30/30 type guy though.

I would guess and say they play a lot less than 162 games in a season as well. Plus the fact those stats might not be right.

I'm not Greg Walker, but from the video I saw of him, he's got a swing similar to Alfonso Soriano. He has a closed stance, so he covers a good portion of the plate. He picks his foot up and puts it back down, so it'll be more difficult to fool him on offspeed pitches. Plus like another poster said he has a swing where his barrel is in the hitting zone for a very long time, which is a good thing. He definitely explodes on the ball, getting a lot of torque. The only problem that usually arises with someone with his type of stance is if he cant turn on 92-95 MPH fastballs on his hands. If he can do that, he should be a very strong and consistent hitter. If his contract is only for 4.75 million for 4 years, we might see him start in AAA to see how he responds to our pro ball. If he gets off to a hot start and/or someone struggles on our team (Owens/Richar), he'll be up with us. Or he might just start the year with us if he has a good spring and just add to our depth on the bench. If he truly can start in CF (doubt it, but maybe), we'd have Ozuna, Uribe, Hall and Owens on the bench. That gives you decent options for pinch hitters and pinch runners.

This truly is a cliche' saying, but it's definitely a low risk/high reward type of signing (if the $$ numbers we've heard is correct). Hopefully he's a beast and can produce for us for years to come.

chisox77
12-21-2007, 09:16 PM
These are often the kinds of moves that make a huge difference. From what I've read and seen on the YouTube video, Ramirez looks promising. He's also young. It will be interesting to see how he plays in ST.



:cool:

thedudeabides
12-21-2007, 10:06 PM
I hope they can groom him into a leadoff hitter. It is difficult to tell how the numbers will translate here, but he had a nice OBP and some good speed. The caught stealing numbers are high, but that could improve with better coaching and overall better experience.

Frontman
12-21-2007, 10:13 PM
These are often the kinds of moves that make a huge difference. From what I've read and seen on the YouTube video, Ramirez looks promising. He's also young. It will be interesting to see how he plays in ST.



:cool:

It reminds me of the Iguchi signing. We had no idea that Iguchi would be able to play at a level needed in MLB, and he did so swimmingly.

soxinem1
12-21-2007, 10:13 PM
I know a lot of you gals and guys, like myself, are dying to see the White Sox make an impact-type acquisition, but I cannot get excited about signing a guy we never heard of, saw play, or have a clue how he helps the team.

Since the Cuban League is judged 'A' ball level, I see this more as signing a minor league FA.

This is just like in the movie 'Major League'. I can hear Farmio and Hawk now, with their 'I'm sure he did well wherever he played' lines.

I will save my judgements for ST and the 2008 season.

thedudeabides
12-21-2007, 10:22 PM
I know a lot of you gals and guys, like myself, are dying to see the White Sox make an impact-type acquisition, but I cannot get excited about signing a guy we never heard of, saw play, or have a clue how he helps the team.

Since the Cuban League is judged 'A' ball level, I see this more as signing a minor league FA.

This is just like in the movie 'Major League'. I can hear Farmio and Hawk now, with their 'I'm sure he did well wherever he played' lines.

I will save my judgements for ST and the 2008 season.

I agree, but I am optimistic. The Sox have taken a beating at the perception that they have a bad minor league system. This move along with acquiring Quentin, Richar, Denks and Floyd really gives them a lot of near ready prospects that are young and cheap. Not to mention Fields. If all of them turn out to be regulars, there won't be a lot of room for more youth.

drewcifer
12-21-2007, 10:52 PM
I agree, but I am optimistic. The Sox have taken a beating at the perception that they have a bad minor league system. This move along with acquiring Quentin, Richar, Denks and Floyd really gives them a lot of near ready prospects that are young and cheap. Not to mention Fields. If all of them turn out to be regulars, there won't be a lot of room for more youth.

Cheap, but not young.

Konerko was young when he came here. Cabrera is young. Verlander is young. Bonderman is young. Ellsbury, Chamberlain, Kennedy....

We don't find and sign truly YOUNG emerging talent. We don't. We bring up guys that are considered "relatively" young, but that's it. I'm excited to see Alexei... But again - already 26.

We **** ourselves on this forum over Miggy went to Detroit and who is 24, already an All-Star, and has 5 years of big league experience!


Aside from Danks (in age), who touches that?

A. Cavatica
12-21-2007, 10:55 PM
Now I guess we know who's going to Boston in that Crisp deal...

Sockinchisox
12-21-2007, 10:55 PM
Dave van Dyck has a pretty good article on him.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-071221whitesoxcuban,1,6037764.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

Standing Ovation
12-21-2007, 10:57 PM
I like the signing, but if so many other teams scouted this guy and he only got 4/4.75, can he really be that good? Maybe the numbers are wrong.

thomas35forever
12-21-2007, 11:01 PM
I've got a good feeling about this deal. I'm not sure what he's gonna do for us yet, but this is could be the biggest signing of an unknown foreign since Gooch.

thedudeabides
12-21-2007, 11:04 PM
Cheap, but not young.

Konerko was young when he came here. Cabrera is young. Verlander is young. Bonderman is young. Ellsbury, Chamberlain, Kennedy....

We don't find and sign truly YOUNG emerging talent. We don't. We bring up guys that are considered "relatively" young, but that's it. I'm excited to see Alexei... But again - already 26.

We **** ourselves on this forum over Miggy went to Detroit and who is 24, already an All-Star, and has 5 years of big league experience!


Aside from Danks (in age), who touches that?

I guess they are not that young, but they are cheap and it's good to see at least an effort to start getting some youth in here. It's been a long time coming to start changing their approach and it can't happen overnight. The Sox have had a difficult time developing position players and if they need to go outside the organization to start getting some that can be successful, than so be it.

soxfanreggie
12-21-2007, 11:10 PM
He gives us another option for positions we need to look at. I like this signing.

Brian26
12-21-2007, 11:14 PM
Here is the only video of him in action (I think).

http://youtube.com/watch?v=o81usn3BtKA

That's a pretty cool clip just to see how some of the baseball ettiquette in Cuba differs from MLB. It was interesting to see the entire team come out of the dugout to high five him, and of course the jersey-pointing he did as he rounded the bases.

I like his look at the plate. Seems to have a little pop in his bat...he reminds me physically of Soriano.

oeo
12-21-2007, 11:17 PM
Cheap, but not young.

Konerko was young when he came here. Cabrera is young. Verlander is young. Bonderman is young. Ellsbury, Chamberlain, Kennedy....

We don't find and sign truly YOUNG emerging talent. We don't. We bring up guys that are considered "relatively" young, but that's it. I'm excited to see Alexei... But again - already 26.

We **** ourselves on this forum over Miggy went to Detroit and who is 24, already an All-Star, and has 5 years of big league experience!


Aside from Danks (in age), who touches that?

You're making a big deal over a couple years age difference? :?:

So 23 is young, but 25 is just 'relatively' young. *****. 25 is young...these are guys that will be hitting their prime years soon enough. Fields will be 25...he's not young enough for you? :lol: How ridiculous...

I really do not understand the point of that post. In fact, it's quite stupid if you ask me. I'm just going to assume that it was supposed to be in teal, and laugh at it.

btrain929
12-21-2007, 11:20 PM
You're making a big deal over a couple years age difference? :?:

So 23 is young, but 25 is just 'relatively' young. *****. 25 is young...these are guys that will be hitting their prime years soon enough. Fields will be 25...he's not young enough for you? :lol:

I really do not understand the point of that post. In fact, it's quite stupid if you ask me.

Completely agree. That other poster made it seem like 24 year old All Stars is the rule, when its obviously the exception.

Brian26
12-21-2007, 11:21 PM
I'm not Greg Walker, but from the video I saw of him, he's got a swing similar to Alfonso Soriano. .

Good call. I'm reading through the entire thread now, and I saw the same similarity from the youtube video.

Frontman
12-21-2007, 11:23 PM
If 26 is already "getting old" in baseball; I'm a tired over-the-hill-broken-down-heap.

:wink:

SoxNation05
12-21-2007, 11:29 PM
I like the signing but how great can he be if he is getting signed for 4/4.75? I mean if he was something really special he would be a 40 million dollar man on the Yanks, Cubs or BoSox. I hope the Crisp trade still falls through because we are getting depth, insurarance and somehow our minor leagues seems to strengthen in the deal it almost seems to good to be true.
Now it looks like Alexei Rameriez and Cabrera for Jon Garland.

drewcifer
12-21-2007, 11:30 PM
You're making a big deal over a couple years age difference? :?:

So 23 is young, but 25 is just 'relatively' young. *****. 25 is young...these are guys that will be hitting their prime years soon enough. Fields will be 25...he's not young enough for you? :lol: How ridiculous...

I really do not understand the point of that post. In fact, it's quite stupid if you ask me. I'm just going to assume that it was supposed to be in teal, and laugh at it.

Don't be obtuse. I was talking about guys younger with major league experience (Verlander, M. Cabrera) as opposed.

I was making a point about identifying the talent EARLY.

If you're going to tell me that Jerry Owens is only 2 years older than Miguel Cabreara and that's what you understood, than I :lol: at your comprehension skills.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

oeo
12-21-2007, 11:30 PM
Now it looks like Alexei Rameriez and Cabrera for Jon Garland.

Are you forgetting the set-up man that was signed?

oeo
12-21-2007, 11:34 PM
Don't be obtuse. I was talking about guys younger with major league experience (Verlander, M. Cabrera) as opposed.

I was making a point about identifying the talent EARLY.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

No, I guess I don't.

If you're going to tell me that Jerry Owens is only 2 years older than Miguel Cabreara and that's what you understood, than I :lol: at your comprehension skills.When did anyone mention Jerry Owens? Actually...Floyd, Fields, Richar, and Danks were mentioned.

DumpJerry
12-21-2007, 11:36 PM
Today is a very sad day for the Kenny haters.

SoxNation05
12-21-2007, 11:38 PM
Are you forgetting the set-up man that was signed?
We got 2 milion from the Angels not 4.5 mil or whatever Linebrink got.

thomas35forever
12-21-2007, 11:39 PM
Yyyesssssss

This Was The Guy I Wanted Most. He Has A Chance To Be A Real Star!!!!!!!!!!!


Fantastic Move, Kenny, You Are Back!!!
I see KW's not the only guy working under the radar.

drewcifer
12-21-2007, 11:42 PM
No, I guess I don't.

When did anyone mention Jerry Owens? Actually...Floyd, Fields, Richar, and Danks were mentioned.

Yep, they were. Sub in Jerry for anyone of them but Danks if you feel better, sport.

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-21-2007, 11:44 PM
I'm actually really happy and surprised we got this guy. If he truely can play CF, SS, and 2B, and is as good as he appears to be we got a great deal. Looks like Contreras is still good for something.

SoxSpeed22
12-21-2007, 11:45 PM
Good signing. The Sox have had their eye on him for some time and if he can develop into an everyday player, that would be great.

SoxNation05
12-21-2007, 11:47 PM
I am so excited for ST!!!! I really want to see this kid play.

SoxNation05
12-21-2007, 11:47 PM
This makes up for KW non-tendering Anny Gonzalez.

Brian26
12-22-2007, 12:03 AM
This makes up for KW non-tendering Andy Gonzalez.

Teal?

DeadMoney
12-22-2007, 12:20 AM
Don't know anything about him, but for that kind of money ... it can't hurt!

IMO, this now opens up the door to lose Anderson or Sweeney, or both (or Crede or Fields - I suppose). Could happen soon, could happen during Spring Training, but we shall see...

As for Ramirez (whoever said he looks to have a Soriano type swing; right on), I can't wait to see him play in Tucson in March.

Brian26
12-22-2007, 12:23 AM
As for Ramirez (whoever said he looks to have a Soriano type swing; right on), I can't wait to see him play in Tucson in March.

Hopefully slightly more disciplined at the plate than Soriano though.

gogosox16
12-22-2007, 12:24 AM
Don't know anything about him, but for that kind of money ... it can't hurt!

IMO, this now opens up the door to lose Anderson or Sweeney, or both (or Crede or Fields - I suppose). Could happen soon, could happen during Spring Training, but we shall see...

As for Ramirez (whoever said he looks to have a Soriano type swing; right on), I can't wait to see him play in Tucson in March.
I think this move helped the Sox a lot becuase now they have more depth for the outfield so now they could package a crede and anderson/sweeney/owens for bulpen help and possibly more when Crede proves he's healthy enough

as for the Soriano swing, I agree but that can turn out to a good or bad thing. We don't need a guy who strikes out a lot or hits a homer, we need a guy that can get on base and play solid fundamental baseball and I truly believe that what I've read is that he will be that for us

JorgeFabregas
12-22-2007, 01:06 AM
as for the Soriano swing, I agree but that can turn out to a good or bad thing. We don't need a guy who strikes out a lot or hits a homer, we need a guy that can get on base and play solid fundamental baseball and I truly believe that what I've read is that he will be that for us
C'mon, isn't this a little silly? It would be wonderful if the Sox had a centerfielder with similar offensive skills to Soriano. Not saying that this guy does.

goon
12-22-2007, 01:29 AM
KW doing his best impression of a stealth bomber. 4 years for $4.75 Million? There's virtually no risk... I'm excited.

btrain929
12-22-2007, 01:29 AM
We got 2 milion from the Angels not 4.5 mil or whatever Linebrink got.

True, but before you consider the cash we RECEIVED from Anaheim, Cabrera was making only 9.5 million ish in 2008, compared to Garland's 12 million. That saved us 2.5 million on the books right there. Add the 1.5-2 million we received from Anaheim, there's Linebrink's 1st year of salary taken care of.

So, another way you could technically take a look at our offseason additions in comparison to our biggest loss is:

Garland and 1 million cash for Cabrera, Linebrink, and Alexei Ramirez.

I'll take that just about every day of the week. Now if you add together the money we saved by not re-upping Erstad, Pods, Cintron, Bukvich, Myers, and AGon, we can still make a signing or take on some more salary (Crisp, another bullpen arm, trading Uribe & sending cash with) and technically still be breaking even this offseason financially, but the team as a whole being noticeably better.

DrCrawdad
12-22-2007, 01:48 AM
I'm curious if the Contreras (and same agent) situation helped us sign him. if he turns out to be a good player, we can right off some more of Contreras' salary as our adjustment volunteer ;)

http://www.mlb.com/images/2003/01/24/huTXRPWX.jpg
Hey, I gave a hand too!

DrCrawdad
12-22-2007, 02:08 AM
Cheap, but not young.

Konerko was young when he came here. Cabrera is young. Verlander is young. Bonderman is young. Ellsbury, Chamberlain, Kennedy....

We don't find and sign truly YOUNG emerging talent. We don't. We bring up guys that are considered "relatively" young, but that's it. I'm excited to see Alexei... But again - already 26.


Alexei Ramirez, birthdate 9/22/1981
Rich Hill, birthdate 3/10/1980

It's funny how Cubbie fans and the media routinely refer to Rich Hill as a "young pitcher." But some Sox fans want to make Alexei out to be some old guy.

:rolleyes:

Grzegorz
12-22-2007, 05:00 AM
I'm actually really happy and surprised we got this guy. If he truely can play CF, SS, and 2B, and is as good as he appears to be we got a great deal. Looks like Contreras is still good for something.

He does have to compete for the CF spot correct?

I'd be happy if he could win the CF job in spring training and propel this team towards a championship.

cws05champ
12-22-2007, 06:56 AM
If I'm not mistaken dwarf tossing is still legit in Cuba.

It makes me sick....cat juggling!

champagne030
12-22-2007, 08:07 AM
KW doing his best impression of a stealth bomber. 4 years for $4.75 Million? There's virtually no risk... I'm excited.

I'd say there's some risk. Isn't he going to go on the 40 man roster? Signing an unproven player and giving him $5M over 4 years is blasphemy to a few posters. They don't want to spend $5M on a draft pick who doesn't need to be signed to a major league contract. :rolleyes: That said, I like the move Kenny. Good job!

dickallen15
12-22-2007, 08:40 AM
Today is a very sad day for the Kenny haters.
Because he gave $5 million to a guy who will be on the Charlotte Knights in 2008? There is a poster on another board who is a lower level scout with the White Sox, his authenticity has been verified by the people who run that board. He basically said Ramirez projects to be a player similar to Omar Infante with a little less power.

Big Hurt #35=HOF
12-22-2007, 08:46 AM
If Ramirez is going to be our CF, who is leading off? Cabrera?

Not a horrible move. A lot of teams were interested in him. He is considered one of the top 2 players in Cuba.

Ramirez led Cuba’s Serie Nacional in home runs last season with 20 and was a member of Cuba’s top-level national team for the last 3 seasons, winning an Olympic gold medal in 2004 in Athens and playing for Cuba’s World Baseball Classic team, which placed second to Japan.

Ramirez, who went 6-for-16 (.375) in the WBC, has played shortstop for Pinar Del Rio but has played the outfield and second base for Cuba in international competition. He hit .335 with a .574 slugging percentage this season for Pinar del Rio.

DoItForDanPasqua
12-22-2007, 09:22 AM
He is considered one of the top 2 players in Cuba.


If this is true, Kenny got a bargain, and crafted this without many other GMs being aware.

tsamdog
12-22-2007, 09:26 AM
Please talk me off this because I want to believe that KW's signing is relatively risk-free. At first blush, isn't Alexei an inexperienced version of Pablo?

DoItForDanPasqua
12-22-2007, 09:30 AM
It's risk free because there weren't many other options available, and this signing shouldn't keep them from spending money elsewhere.

sox1970
12-22-2007, 09:33 AM
Please talk me off this because I want to believe that KW's signing is relatively risk-free. At first blush, isn't Alexei an inexperienced version of Pablo?

Too early to say, but I think they should pencil him in as a bench player for now, and still move ahead and try to get an experienced centerfielder/leadoff guy. If Ramirez turns out to be a player, then they can find room for him.

TomBradley72
12-22-2007, 09:47 AM
29 teams thought this guy wasn't worth more than $1.2M a year....hard to get too excited about this....but based on the overall talent pool of the organization we can use all the help we can get.

Sockinchisox
12-22-2007, 10:39 AM
29 teams thought this guy wasn't worth more than $1.2M a year....hard to get too excited about this....but based on the overall talent pool of the organization we can use all the help we can get.

No one knows that he didn't have more offers out there, we have 2 positions that he can play that are somewhat open, that probably went into his decision making.

jabrch
12-22-2007, 10:49 AM
There is a poster on another board who is a lower level scout with the White Sox, his authenticity has been verified by the people who run that board.

If the Sox management were aware that one of their scouts were making statements like this on a message board, he'd be fired - immediately.

soxwon
12-22-2007, 10:52 AM
Here is the only video of him in action (I think).

http://youtube.com/watch?v=o81usn3BtKA

we got our own version of SOSA!!!
He sure gets excited, can you say Rookie Of The Year!!!

jabrch
12-22-2007, 10:52 AM
29 teams thought this guy wasn't worth more than $1.2M a year....hard to get too excited about this....but based on the overall talent pool of the organization we can use all the help we can get.


That's how markets work - but they cut both ways.

25 ish teams passed on Porcello because he wasn't worth the pick and money he'd have costed - and some of our armchair GMs were up in arms that we were one of them.

It's a low risk move. What it pays off? Who knows? When we may or may not see results? Who knows? I surely won't criticize the move - but I'm not going to book my plans to be at the park for the World Series because of this move either. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Ramirez spends the first half of the season in Charlotte - possibly more if a few things break well for us in terms of Richar and BA/Owens.

The best part about this is that it has a chance of putting an end to the talk of giving up something of value to pay 5mm this year, and more in the future for Coco Crispies.

jabrch
12-22-2007, 10:57 AM
Please talk me off this because I want to believe that KW's signing is relatively risk-free. At first blush, isn't Alexei an inexperienced version of Pablo?


I don't think anyone felt Ozuna was going to be much more than a role player over the course of the past 5 years. We don't know how high Ramirez' ceiling is - but it has to be higher than what anyone projected from Pablo. Pablo's value is largely in his ability to hit off the bench and play multiple positions. While Alexi also plays multiple positions, I'd have to believe his value is more in his potential upside if he adjusts well to major league competition.

Lip Man 1
12-22-2007, 11:08 AM
I'm not really sure what to make of this signing because I simply don't know much about him.

The cost certainly seems reasonable although I did a double take at signing him for four years.

One question / point about this signing.

Can someone come up with a list of Cuban hitters who have come to the major leagues? I'd be curious to see how they did...Cuban pitchers have had at least some track record of success but I can't recall any hitters. Maybe I'm just missing someone.

Second, and this could be VERY important. In Cuba they normally use a metal bat I think. There is an adjustment period to wooden bats and some folks are never able to do it.

I'm also curious to see what this signing means. If he plays the outfield are talks / deals off or slowed to get more help there? Could Owens now be trade-bait? If he plays the infield is Uribe and / or Richar now on the block?

Lip

chisoxmike
12-22-2007, 11:11 AM
Can't hurt I guess.

I don't know how people can be falling over themselves when the only thing you've seen of this guy is a YouTube video. I like what I hear, but we'll see how it shapes up...

Sockinchisox
12-22-2007, 11:16 AM
Kenny says he see's him as a CF or SS.

Jjav829
12-22-2007, 11:21 AM
Can't hurt I guess.

I don't know how people can be falling over themselves when the only thing you've seen of this guy is a YouTube video. I like what I hear, but we'll see how it shapes up...

Yeah, let's not get too desperate here, folks. There's very little not to like about this signing. The price is about what a veteran utility player would command, probably even less. He can play several positions. It's a no-risk move with potential for a decent reward.

But screaming about how "KW is back" is a little over the top. It's a good signing by KW, but he still has a ways to go with this team.

DickAllen72
12-22-2007, 11:33 AM
If the Sox management were aware that one of their scouts were making statements like this on a message board, he'd be fired - immediately.
FWIW, that poster wrote in a report that's available on his profile that he is keeping anonymous "for job security." Either he's a bogus poster or the Sox didn't do a good job in evaluating his character when they hired him. :cool:

Anyway, if Ramirez truly does project as an Omar Infante with less power he won't even be in the majors in four years.

BTW on Sox Weekly they're talking about Ramirez more as a middle infielder than as an outfielder.

jabrch
12-22-2007, 11:49 AM
FWIW, that poster wrote in a report that's available on his profile that he is keeping anonymous "for job security." Either he's a bogus poster or the Sox didn't do a good job in evaluating his character when they hired him. :cool:

Yeah - I guess it is possible - I just highly doubt it. What incentive does a person have to risk their entire career in baseball to be on a message board anonymouosly?

Yeah - I'm not getting overly excited about Ramirez until we see more. But with that being said, there is little risk to it - no more than in drafting a HS pitcher and giving him 8mm in bonus money - and there is probably a similar chance of him being an impact player (small).

I'm happy to see a move - but this one probably has little impact on the 2008 team. It's more an investment.

BainesHOF
12-22-2007, 11:59 AM
This all but makes Uribe's departure official.

roadrunner
12-22-2007, 12:03 PM
I like this move in general and he could turn out to be a great pickup. However, we've had outifield holes for two years now and three words come to mind to describe every attempt at filling these holes: CHEAP, CHEAP, CHEAP.

I like this move as long as they don't go into the season implying that Quentin and Ramirez are the answers to our outfield problem (so much for making that "splash"). For a team with world series aspirations, they seem like no more than fourth or fifth outfielders (with plenty of upside).

champagne030
12-22-2007, 12:28 PM
Yeah - I'm not getting overly excited about Ramirez until we see more. But with that being said, there is little risk to it - no more than in drafting a HS pitcher and giving him 8mm in bonus money - and there is probably a similar chance of him being an impact player (small).



You're the same person ripping everyone who suggested we waste that kind of money on a player in the draft. You're a hypocrite. Kenny doesn't spend the money and you defend him because it would be "asinine" to spend that kind of money and then you defend him when he does spend it. Pick a side of the fence and stay there.

CWSRULE
12-22-2007, 12:39 PM
Yeah - I guess it is possible - I just highly doubt it. What incentive does a person have to risk their entire career in baseball to be on a message board anonymouosly?

Yeah - I'm not getting overly excited about Ramirez until we see more. But with that being said, there is little risk to it - no more than in drafting a HS pitcher and giving him 8mm in bonus money - and there is probably a similar chance of him being an impact player (small).

I'm happy to see a move - but this one probably has little impact on the 2008 team. It's more an investment.

He's bogus. No way he would share that on a message board.

Frater Perdurabo
12-22-2007, 12:52 PM
I like this move in general and he could turn out to be a great pickup. However, we've had outifield holes for two years now and three words come to mind to describe every attempt at filling these holes: CHEAP, CHEAP, CHEAP.

Without re-hashing the whole payroll argument ad nauseum (which invariably will draw West and Lip into it), let's just say that the Sox have very good veteran players who also happen to be signed to rather large contracts: Paulie, Thome, Dye, Buehrle, Vazquez, Contreras, Cabrera, AJ, Linebrink. Obviously there will be more payroll available if and when Uribe and Crede are dealt.

Only the Yankees and Red Sox realistically can be throwing $10 million at every hole. The Sox simply are not in the position to be filling all their holes with expensive free agent veterans, especially those who just aren't of superstar quality. It would be one thing to be paying huge deals to HOF-caliber players like A-Rod, Ichiro (who Lip and I agree KW wanted to pursue), Vlad, etc. But it makes little sense give almost that much money to players who are several notches below that level like Rowand, Hunter, etc.

balke
12-22-2007, 01:05 PM
This all but makes Uribe's departure official.

Or it puts Richar in the minors. I think 2B is open til Spring Training is over.

dickallen15
12-22-2007, 01:08 PM
I really, really like this signing.

I imagine that if he can play CF, he has at least above-average speed. Does anyone know how he is at running the bases? How about stealing bases? Does he have a good eye? Does he take a fair share of walks? Could he be a respectable leadoff hitter? If so, that would mean that the Sox really would not have a hole anywhere in the lineup; Richar could be brought along slowly as the #9 hitter.
How can you like a signing and at the same time not know anything about the guy? I will say this, he has to be better than Andy Gonzalez.

geraldfritz
12-22-2007, 01:55 PM
The guy does appear to be a pretty good player. He was the only thing interesting in the World Baseball Classic a couple years ago. He did look very good in that tournament the few times I saw him. I am glad the Sox have signed him. Hopefully he can make the transition quickly and can help us out. I was starting to feel very negative about this upcoming season, but this signing has at least made me feel a little better, and it is good to see that Kenny is still out there trying to make some moves to help us out.

gobears1987
12-22-2007, 03:57 PM
Today is a very sad day for the Kenny haters.
And thus a happy day for me!

Sockinchisox
12-23-2007, 12:10 AM
According to Ramirez's agent, the Sox had been pursuing Ramirez since he first announced he was defecting in Sept and were the first team to contact him.

roadrunner
12-23-2007, 12:21 AM
KW doing his best impression of a stealth bomber. 4 years for $4.75 Million? There's virtually no risk... I'm excited.

You're "excited" about a guy that nobody else in the league was willing to pay and that you've never seen play? It's probably worth the risk but let's not get carried away.

This is nothing more than a flyer. With any luck he'll be Pablo Ozuna or Norberto Martin.

Sockinchisox
12-23-2007, 01:05 AM
You're "excited" about a guy that nobody else in the league was willing to pay and that you've never seen play? It's probably worth the risk but let's not get carried away.

This is nothing more than a flyer. With any luck he'll be Pablo Ozuna or Norberto Martin.


How do you know no one else was willing to pay? You have no idea how many offers he had.

NardiWasHere
12-23-2007, 01:34 AM
We need Yulieski Gourriel to defect for real this time and sign with the Sox....

He was my favorite part of the WBC.

An all-Cuban double play combo in the future? Those two guys would be exciting as all hell.

MetroPD
12-23-2007, 04:52 AM
Don't get ahead of yourself. He may not even make the team out of Spring Training. We still need a centerfielder, but he'll be a good insurance policy if CF or 2B become a problem.

I agree. The MLB is a completely different level. I hope he does well.

dickallen15
12-23-2007, 06:55 AM
How do you know no one else was willing to pay? You have no idea how many offers he had.
The White Sox got him to sign a 4 year contract for less than half the average salary of a major league player while his services were on the open market. He basicallly gets the same type of money Marlon Anderson or Geoff Blum get. The money offers are a pretty good indication what teams feel about him. If he really was like Alfonso Soriano, the offers would be much higher. Like the previous poster said, he's more Pablo Ozuna or Paco Martin. Expect that. If you think he'll put up the same type numbers he put up in Cuba, you are probably going to be very dissappointed.

kittle42
12-23-2007, 08:32 AM
The White Sox got him to sign a 4 year contract for less than half the average salary of a major league player while his services were on the open market. He basicallly gets the same type of money Marlon Anderson or Geoff Blum get. The money offers are a pretty good indication what teams feel about him. If he really was like Alfonso Soriano, the offers would be much higher. Like the previous poster said, he's more Pablo Ozuna or Paco Martin. Expect that. If you think he'll put up the same type numbers he put up in Cuba, you are probably going to be very dissappointed.


Agreed. I think one can generally infer the level of quality expected from Ramirez by MLB teams by the final money he ended up getting. This is not a big move, though it may help strengthen the team's versatility, and, of course, is of the Williams-patented "low risk, moderate-to-high reward" category.

raven1
12-23-2007, 08:48 AM
The White Sox got him to sign a 4 year contract for less than half the average salary of a major league player while his services were on the open market. He basicallly gets the same type of money Marlon Anderson or Geoff Blum get. The money offers are a pretty good indication what teams feel about him. If he really was like Alfonso Soriano, the offers would be much higher. Like the previous poster said, he's more Pablo Ozuna or Paco Martin. Expect that. If you think he'll put up the same type numbers he put up in Cuba, you are probably going to be very dissappointed.
I also agree that next year he will probably be a utility player at best, and could possibly spend much of the season in the minors if he has trouble adjusting to major league pitching. However, based on his WBC performance & Cuba numbers I am hopeful that he has longer-term potential to be a solid starter or even a Soriano-level star. At $1.2M per year for 4 years, even a maybe one in four chance of seeing this upside makes it a great move, especially given the lack of position player talent in the Sox farm system.

RowanDye
12-23-2007, 09:09 AM
The White Sox got him to sign a 4 year contract for less than half the average salary of a major league player while his services were on the open market. He basicallly gets the same type of money Marlon Anderson or Geoff Blum get. The money offers are a pretty good indication what teams feel about him. If he really was like Alfonso Soriano, the offers would be much higher. Like the previous poster said, he's more Pablo Ozuna or Paco Martin. Expect that. If you think he'll put up the same type numbers he put up in Cuba, you are probably going to be very dissappointed.

Well if he can play a respectable CF and produce like Ozuna did in 2006 I will say, "Thank you, thank you very much."

If he can play CF I would think he could play LF as well, right?!

I agree with others that we should still sign/trade for a CF, preferably one with solid defense and a little power. Then we let Quentin, Ozuna, and Ramirez battle it out in spring training to share leadoff duties and LF, forming some type of platoon with Owens.

Ozzie still probably thinks he needs a more proven offensive production, but he has to be getting a little excited about filling out a lineup card. Right now he has several guys that he should be able to find playing time for because they can play multiple positions: Quentin (RF and LF), Owens (LF and CF), Ozuna (2B, SS, 3B, LF?), Ramirez (SS, 2B, CF, LF?).

I was going to say all of these guys were fairly young as well until I realized that Ozuna will turn 34 next year!

Sockinchisox
12-23-2007, 11:27 AM
The White Sox got him to sign a 4 year contract for less than half the average salary of a major league player while his services were on the open market. He basicallly gets the same type of money Marlon Anderson or Geoff Blum get. The money offers are a pretty good indication what teams feel about him. If he really was like Alfonso Soriano, the offers would be much higher. Like the previous poster said, he's more Pablo Ozuna or Paco Martin. Expect that. If you think he'll put up the same type numbers he put up in Cuba, you are probably going to be very dissappointed.

Then how did Yuniesky Betancourt get a 4 yr deal worth under 3 million yet, he's the starting shortstop for the Mariners and he put up lesser numbers than Ramirez.

gogosox16
12-23-2007, 11:30 AM
Anyone know when this deal will become official and you would think he would be on the 40-man roster so who do you DFA?

Sockinchisox
12-23-2007, 11:32 AM
Anyone know when this deal will become official and you would think he would be on the 40-man roster so who do you DFA?

After New Year I think, and it's a major league deal so he's going on the 40 man which stands at 39 right now.

gogosox16
12-23-2007, 11:38 AM
After New Year I think, and it's a major league deal so he's going on the 40 man which stands at 39 right now.
Thank you...I miscounted cause I counted 40 guys.

SoxNation05
12-23-2007, 11:55 AM
Thank you...I miscounted cause I counted 40 guys.
They went down to 39 when they released Anny Gonzalez.

champagne030
12-23-2007, 12:04 PM
Then how did Yuniesky Betancourt get a 4 yr deal worth under 3 million yet, he's the starting shortstop for the Mariners and he put up lesser numbers than Ramirez.

He signed two years ago and at a younger age (a few days shy of his 24th birthday). Have you noticed how the market has increased in these past two years?

Also, the contract was structured so that he would reach $ incentives and be eligible for arbitration after 3 seasons if he was a full-time player.

Contract:

signed 4-year deal worth 2.826M on 1/26/05- he receives a 1.31M signing bonus and salaries of 316K in 2005, 350K in 2006, 400K in 2007, and 450K in 2008- + his 2008 salary could rise by as much as 700K if reaches 1,000 PA combined over the first 3 years- + if reaches 3 years of service time or can be deemed a "Super-2" player after the 2007 season, his 2008 contract would be voided and he would eligible for salary arbitration- + later signed 3-year EXTENSION thru 2011 season worth $13.75M on 4/5/07- + he receives a $1.5M signing bonus- + as part of the deal, 2008 salary is increased to $1.25M- + he receives salaries of $2M in 2009, $3M in 2010 and $4M in 2011- + the deal includes a team option for 2012 worth $6M or a $2M buyout
Agent: Jamie Torres

http://www.mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=555

Sockinchisox
12-23-2007, 12:14 PM
He signed two years ago and at a younger age (a few days shy of his 24th birthday). Have you noticed how the market has increased in these past two years?

Also, the contract was structured so that he would reach $ incentives and be eligible for arbitration after 3 seasons if he was a full-time player.


http://www.mlb4u.com/profile.php?id=555

Alright.

I forgot to mention Ramirez's contract has incentives as well where he can earn up to 8 mil according to ESPN.

SoxNation05
12-23-2007, 05:13 PM
Then how did Yuniesky Betancourt get a 4 yr deal worth under 3 million yet, he's the starting shortstop for the Mariners and he put up lesser numbers than Ramirez.
If the Sox dump Uribe, Cabrera gets away, and Rameriez sucks, I would not mind signing Betancourt. Of course he may get good money I just think the Sox and him would be a good fit.
2009 Lineup
CF Crawford
SS Betancourt
1B Konerko
RF Dye
DH Ibanez/Griffey
3B Fields
LF Quenton
C Pierzynski
2B Richar/ Rameriez

That was a joke.

thomas35forever
12-23-2007, 05:16 PM
If the Sox dump Uribe, Cabrera gets away, and Rameriez sucks, I would not mind signing Betancourt. Of course he may get good money I just think the Sox and him would be a good fit.
2009 Lineup
CF Crawford
SS Betancourt
1B Konerko
RF Dye
DH Ibanez
3B Fields
LF Quenton
C Pierzynski
2B Richar/ Rameriez

That was a joke.
Ibanez at DH? Not sure about that. This lineup wins 80 games tops.

SoxNation05
12-23-2007, 05:18 PM
Ibanez at DH? Not sure about that. This lineup wins 80 games tops.
If this lineup wins 80 games, our lineup this year itches 60.

SoxNation05
12-23-2007, 05:20 PM
Ibanez at DH? Not sure about that. This lineup wins 80 games tops.
http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=116380
That beats out Thome.

EMachine10
12-23-2007, 05:57 PM
Uh, every year we have to go through the Crawford pipe dreams, don't we?

It's amazing how off-topic we get.

gogosox16
12-23-2007, 05:58 PM
Uh, every year we have to go through the Crawford pipe dreams, don't we?
Yep and it won't end until we either get him or he retires or once he starts sucking

TheVulture
12-24-2007, 04:18 AM
http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=116380
That beats out Thome.

How the hell does a .350 ObP and.486 SLG beat out .410/.563 to go along with 40 HR potential?

cws05champ
12-24-2007, 07:14 AM
How the hell does a .350 ObP and.486 SLG beat out .410/.563 to go along with 40 HR potential?

Because he's not on the Sox...players as you know are always better when they don't play for us.

...
12-24-2007, 09:02 AM
Ibanez at DH? Not sure about that. This lineup wins 80 games tops.

:rolleyes:

MyDogSnores&Fart
12-24-2007, 10:56 AM
Hi guys, I am new to this board so please be gentle. I didn't read this entire thread, but it seems like most here like this deal. I was excited about this at first, but I am unsure as to what he is or will be after checking into it a little more.Where does everyone see this guy? Is he another supersub? Is he our future CFer or SS? Is he our CFer for this year? I have seen, read, and heard so many opinions from him being compared to Omar Infante to Alfonson Soriano. What is the general consensus around these parts? Thanks everyone.

santo=dorf
12-24-2007, 12:42 PM
http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=116380
That beats out Thome.
Wait, are you actually trying to make the argument that Ibanez is a better hitter than Thome?

Please, enlighten me.

spawn
12-24-2007, 12:44 PM
Wait, are you actually trying to make the argument that Ibanez is a better hitter than Thome?

Please, enlighten me.
I hope he enlightens us all...

roadrunner
12-24-2007, 01:21 PM
How do you know no one else was willing to pay? You have no idea how many offers he had.

4 yrs/$4.5 million is next to nothing. I think it's a pretty good assumption that he didn't leave millions on the table just to come to the southside and play with contreras.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ramirez scheduled to make as much over the next four years as Juan Uribe is going to make in 2008?

I'm not saying it's a bad signing, just that it's nothing to get too excited about. I am certainly not excited to hear any talk about Ramirez being in the starting lineup.

MyDogSnores&Fart
12-25-2007, 01:04 AM
4 yrs/$4.5 million is next to nothing. I think it's a pretty good assumption that he didn't leave millions on the table just to come to the southside and play with contreras.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ramirez scheduled to make as much over the next four years as Juan Uribe is going to make in 2008?

I'm not saying it's a bad signing, just that it's nothing to get too excited about. I am certainly not excited to hear any talk about Ramirez being in the starting lineup.

Correct me if I am wrong, but here are the contract numbers I found for the most recent Cuban stars. Yuniesky Betancourt signs with the Mariners for 4 years and 3.65 million in 2005. Kendry Morales - 6 years and 10 million with a 3 million dollar signing bonus. The Ramirez contract seems to fall in line with those and Morales was thought to have 1st round MLB talent by most. Both were considered Cuban stars. The only difference is the age of the player at the time they signed which could make the contract higher for both Betancourt and Morales. I am pretty excited about this trade and to see what this guy has.

...
12-25-2007, 04:29 PM
4 yrs/$4.5 million is next to nothing. I think it's a pretty good assumption that he didn't leave millions on the table just to come to the southside and play with contreras.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ramirez scheduled to make as much over the next four years as Juan Uribe is going to make in 2008?

I'm not saying it's a bad signing, just that it's nothing to get too excited about. I am certainly not excited to hear any talk about Ramirez being in the starting lineup.


So is Josh Fields... what's your point?

You prove yourself, THEN get paid.

KyWhiSoxFan
12-25-2007, 06:23 PM
So is Josh Fields... what's your point?

You prove yourself, THEN get paid.

Comparing the situation and pay of Fields and Alexei Ramirez is not apples to apples. Ramirez if a free agent because he comes from outside the system and can go to the highest bidder. Fields was drafted and comes under the collective bargaining agreement. Fields is stuck at low pay for a few more years. It has nothing to do with ability.

santo=dorf
12-25-2007, 07:34 PM
He's bogus. No way he would share that on a message board.
Looks legit to me:

Scouting -

I grade the player's 5 tools and how he uses them in the game.

The tools are graded on the 20-80 scale, where 50 is MLB average.

5 tools -

Hit
Hit for power
Field
Throw
Run

Pitching:

Fastball Velo
Fastball Mvmt
Individual Secondary Pitches
Command

So, where 50 is average - if a 19-20 yr old player has an "average" MLB tool - then that is pretty nice. Remember, a 50 is not an "average" tool, but an "average MLB" tool. Average in MLB is obviously quite a bit different than average in the GCL.

A "plus" tool is 60 & plus plus is 70. Top of the line is 80 - think about Dunn's power, Gathright's run, etc.

Then, you rate the "tools" for position players dependant upon position:

H - Hit, P - Power, F - Field, T - Throw, R - Run

Catcher - F, T, H, P, R
1B - H, P, F, T, R
2B - H, F, P, R, A
3B - H, P, F, T, R
SS - F, T, H, R, P
LF - H, P, F, T, R
CF - F, H, R, P, T
RF - H, P, T, F, R

After this, you add up their OFP (Overall Future Projection - based on their current abilities):

Player A (CF):

Hit - 35 current
Power - 30 current
Field - 45 current
Throw - 50 current
Run - 60 current

Overall Current: 44


Then (this is where you get the difference between a truly good scout & someone who is doing it because he was simply given the job by the organization thru connections (80%+ of scouts)) - the standard way of doing this is to now add 10 to each category IF the player still has projection - and this is what MOST scouts do. Actual professional scouts take into account different factors into determining Overall Future Projection (OFP). These are things that are picked up in the profession. Being able to judge a player's baseball instincts, and if he can use them and how he uses them is a HUGE factor in scouting that MOST ALL SCOUTS DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW TO DO. Things such as - can the hitter make in-bat adjustments, does the batter 'cheat' to get to the fastball, does the player have a frame to last for his position & not put on weight, will the player put on weight in the 'correct areas' of his body, is the player a fluid runner (determines athleticism), does the player have fluid movements in the field & box, does the player hammer lower level pitching because he has the perfect bat-speed for it - thus making him the .325-15 HR high A hitter and .195-5 HR MLB hitter, and on and on and on. These are things that only the true professional scouts have been trained to see and how to pick them up and where to pick them up from. I can't really explain it thru writing as well as I could in person. This knowledge allows the scout to not "add 10" points, but maybe add 2 points here, 7 points here, maybe even 12 points there. THAT is how true professional scouting works.

Then you get something like this:

OFP: (from Player A, above)

Current/Future (where Future is the player's PEAK playing level - not for each tool individually, but his PEAK overall) - Remarks

Hit - 35/40 - Player A cheats on fastballs in - allowing him to hit well vs. llp (lowerlevelpitching), but will be susceptible to break.ball away as he moves up
Power - 30/45 - Player is not fully mature, and will fill out. Has strong hands & long arms for good extension & gets natural loft - guess hitter and will hit mistakes when he guess right
Field - 45/55 - will play down a bit from plus - even though a plus runner - as he does not read the ball well off the bat - breaks late & doesnt have first step quickness for a plus runner
Throw - 50/55 - Avg. arm and will be a tick above.
Run - 60/60 - Runs well, but better under way - will not be a base stealer as his first step is slow, but can really move from 1st to 3rd.

OFP: 51 -

From there, the 51 can then be moved 5 points in either direction based on "makeup". Will the player put in the work to get the most of his game? Does the player know HIS game? Does the player use HIS game? Does he have serious attitude issues, etc.

Makeup -2 - Does not have quality dedication that he'll need as he has thick legs & will need to keep up maintenance to continue to be a plus runner. He is a lazy worker, last here, first home.

End OFP: 49

Fringe-avg. player - capable of holding a roster spot on most all teams and a possible starter on 2nd division teams. Will be more of a power CF in the mold of Mike Cameron without the plus-plus defense. Will no longer be playable in CF when he starts to slow as he does not get the jumps or have the instincts without the plus legs. Does not have the power or hit ability to be in LF or RF.

This is an "example" of what I'd do. Now, how do I "know" what to look for where others seem to not understand? Well, I don't know that I can explain that at all. Its something I just know and have the instincts to do I suppose & something that MLBSB scout school helped with. Its hard to describe in words without being able to "show" you.

My End OFP was 49. The "standard" scout would have taken his initial grades of 44 and simply added 10 to his 5 tools and given him a 54. A 54 is a solid MLB regular on all teams & an All-Star in peak seasons. This is what "most" scouts do. And by "most" I mean 80-90%. THIS is where you get your BAD information from. Your BAD trades, your faulty prospect reports, etc. This (they) are the reason you have a lack of faith in scouting as an industry. And to tell you the truth, I do, too. I rely on VERY, VERY, VERY few scouts to provide me quality information. There are 1-2 guys/team that I know are quality guys. Many others are not so quality. The problem arises here. GMs, farm directors, scouting directors, etc. will get 30 reports on the same player. When the scouting director gets 30 reports, and 28 of them are of the same "bad quality" & many of the "bad quality" reports are turned in by his "friends" - well, thats how bad trades, bad prospect evaluations, bad etc. happen.


That's certainly more info about scouting and minor leaguers you typically see on a White Sox message board. Regardless, it is just his opinion about a particular player and doesn't mean the guy is going to perform as one guy projects.

MyDogSnores&Fart
12-25-2007, 09:06 PM
So is Josh Fields... what's your point?

You prove yourself, THEN get paid.
Why all the anger with your post? It is going beyond passionate. Did I do something to offend you in either of my first 2 posts?

My point is that you say it is nothing to get excited about just because of the type of contract he signed; however, he seems to have signed the same type of deal Morales and Betancourt did. We would be excited to have either of them at their contracts I believe.

MyDogSnores&Fart
12-25-2007, 09:07 PM
Looks legit to me:



That's certainly more info about scouting and minor leaguers you typically see on a White Sox message board. Regardless, it is just his opinion about a particular player and doesn't mean the guy is going to perform as one guy projects.

I tend to agree with CWSRule. What is the point of posting something like this on a message board? I don't understand.