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Fenway
12-21-2007, 04:32 PM
I missed this one...

http://www.nbcsports.com/portal/site/nbcsports/menuitem.6f806e473b4cb158fb00ec22493c2d04/?vgnextoid=1383a1a9f10f6110VgnVCM10000075c1d240RCR D

Pete Rose thinks players who use steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs are "making a mockery" of baseball.

Oblong
12-21-2007, 04:42 PM
Cool, now he won't feel so lonely.

FarWestChicago
12-21-2007, 09:49 PM
I missed this one...

http://www.nbcsports.com/portal/site/nbcsports/menuitem.6f806e473b4cb158fb00ec22493c2d04/?vgnextoid=1383a1a9f10f6110VgnVCM10000075c1d240RCR D

Pete Rose thinks players who use steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs are "making a mockery" of baseball.You are mistaken. 'Roiders are a thousand times worse than Rose betting on his team to win. The only comparison is if Rose bet on his team to lose. Then you have a point.

Tragg
12-21-2007, 11:26 PM
You are mistaken. 'Roiders are a thousand times worse than Rose betting on his team to win. The only comparison is if Rose bet on his team to lose. The you have a point.
There are a lot of problems with him betting on his team to win.
You manage a team over a season, not to win a single game. Use of starters, bullpens all will change when you really need today's game. Nothing in the least bit benign about betting on your own team.

voodoochile
12-21-2007, 11:32 PM
There are a lot of problems with him betting on his team to win.
You manage a team over a season, not to win a single game. Use of starters, bullpens all will change when you really need today's game. Nothing in the least bit benign about betting on your own team.

Both actions strike at the very integrity of the sport itself. By sheer numbers, roiders are worse. There are so few players who ever bet on their team because it just isn't worth it anymore, but this roids thing goes deep.

Fenway
12-21-2007, 11:45 PM
I remember 20 years ago on the beloved NBC game of the week, Gail Gardner had George Steinbrenner in the studio and he said "What about the games he didn't bet on? Would he save a reliever for the next day if he was going to make a bet?"

More importantly gambling WAS forbidden in MLB at the time, steroids were in a grey area for over a decade.

Rose of all people should keep his mouth zipped.

FarWestChicago
12-22-2007, 12:06 AM
More importantly gambling WAS forbidden in MLB at the time, steroids were in a grey area for over a decade.

Rose of all people should STFUIn what world were 'roids "grey"? They were always illegal. This is such a stupid argument. Give it a ****ing rest. So John Wayne Gacy should have been allowed to play MLB because he didn't do anything they "banned". Give me a ****ing break and get a ****ing clue. This whole line of "thinking" is not worth a moment of thought from an intelligent person. It's a completely idiotic rationalization. Do we need Bud and Fehr to tell us nuclear weapons aren't a part of MLB?

Oblong
12-22-2007, 12:13 AM
I remember 20 years ago on the beloved NBC game of the week, Gail Gardner had George Steinbrenner in the studio and he said "What about the games he didn't bet on? Would he save a reliever for the next day if he was going to make a bet?"

More importantly gambling WAS forbidden in MLB at the time, steroids were in a grey area for over a decade.

Rose of all people should keep his mouth zipped.

and more importantly, a tip off to the bookies that the games he didn't bet on would be as good as a loss. So while he wouldn't put any money on the game, the bookies could count on the Reds losing and adjust their lines accordingly to get a huge pay day. That could have been a way for Rose to pay debts back.

And I do not believe Rose when he says he didn't bet on them to lose. He's lied for 20 years about this.

"I never bet on baseball" became "I bet on baseball but not on the Reds" became "I bet on Cincinatti Reds baseball but only to win". Why should we give him the benefit of the doubt? He's never earned it. I never believed him for a second because the deal he cut gave him the maximum punishment. Not exactly something that a person who didn't do what he was accused of doing would agree to.

Fenway
12-22-2007, 12:13 AM
In what world were 'roids "grey"? They were always illegal. This is such a stupid argument. Give it a ****ing rest. So John Wayne Gacy should have been allowed to play MLB because he didn't do anything they "banned". Give me a ****ing break and get a ****ing clue. This whole line of "thinking" is not worth a moment of thought from an intelligent person. It's a completely idiotic rationalization. Do we need Bud and Fehr to tell us nuclear weapons aren't a part of MLB?

Looks pretty murky to me
THG, known as the "Clear", was the designer steroid at the center of the BALCO scandal. It was made illegal in the USA by the Anabolic Steroid Act of 2004, which did not go into effect until early 2005.

Apparently, THG was a drug developed in the seventies by a pharmaceutical company and abandoned during testing. In 2003, the FDA issued a memo prohibiting its manufacture and marketing as it was not an approved drug. However, that memo did not, and probably could not, prohibit the possession and use of the drug.


http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs11/12620/steroids.htm

Oblong
12-22-2007, 12:19 AM
In what world were 'roids "grey"? They were always illegal. This is such a stupid argument. Give it a ****ing rest. So John Wayne Gacy should have been allowed to play MLB because he didn't do anything they "banned". Give me a ****ing break and get a ****ing clue. This whole line of "thinking" is not worth a moment of thought from an intelligent person. It's a completely idiotic rationalization. Do we need Bud and Fehr to tell us nuclear weapons aren't a part of MLB?

They were gray in the world where there was no real testing and no real punishments. It's not a matter of legal vs. illegal. Baseball's a private industry and they didnt' care that players were using steriods because they were all making money off of it. Contracts went up and attendance went up. Everybody was content with that.

We're dealing with country club type rules. A country club may not like it if you wear a purple sweater on the course but they won't care if you hand out illegal Cuban cigars.

Fenway
12-22-2007, 12:25 AM
I was at a playoff game ( that was cited in the Mitchell Report ) when the crowd was chanting S-T-E-R-O-I-D-S at Jose in 1988. Canseco was laughing and flexing his muscle to the Fenway crowd.

If 34,000 yahoos in Boston could figure it out there had to be somebody at MLB HQ's that knew.

They did not care.

Nellie_Fox
12-22-2007, 12:39 AM
Even if Rose really only bet on his team to win (it took him twelve years to admit that, so I'm sorry if I still don't believe him,) on the days he didn't bet it was functionally the same as betting against his team, because his bookies knew he wasn't betting on his team for some reason.

Tragg
12-22-2007, 12:45 AM
Both actions strike at the very integrity of the sport itself. By sheer numbers, roiders are worse. There are so few players who ever bet on their team because it just isn't worth it anymore, but this roids thing goes deep.No doubt about that. Roids are a much bigger problem to baseball than Rose's gambling.
But if gambling were as pervasive as steroid use was, you could turn out the lights -baseball would be below pro wrestling in terms of legitimate athletic outcomes.

Brian26
12-22-2007, 01:01 AM
I missed this one...

http://www.nbcsports.com/portal/site/nbcsports/menuitem.6f806e473b4cb158fb00ec22493c2d04/?vgnextoid=1383a1a9f10f6110VgnVCM10000075c1d240RCR D

Pete Rose thinks players who use steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs are "making a mockery" of baseball.

When I read this story, I took a different angle on it.

All of the betting issues aside (because Rose is guilty as can be), is Rose claiming he's never taken drugs to help his performance on the playing field? He and the Big Red Machine played during the heyday of amphetamines and greenies.

skottyj242
12-22-2007, 09:28 AM
There are a lot of problems with him betting on his team to win.
You manage a team over a season, not to win a single game. Use of starters, bullpens all will change when you really need today's game. Nothing in the least bit benign about betting on your own team.

But it wasn't just one game he bet on. He would pretty much every game so it wouldn't mess with the pitchers that much.

FarWestChicago
12-22-2007, 09:42 AM
No doubt about that. Roids are a much bigger problem to baseball than Rose's gambling.
But if gambling were as pervasive as steroid use was, you could turn out the lights -baseball would be below pro wrestling in terms of legitimate athletic outcomes.This is true.

FarWestChicago
12-22-2007, 09:46 AM
Looks pretty murky to me


http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs11/12620/steroids.htm
If your whole point is somebody tweaked a couple atoms in a molecule and created something that wasn't illegal until it became known, and is therefore "murky", you fail the part I mentioned about being an "intelligent person". That's just silliness. You are trying to avoid the spirit and rationale of the law.

voodoochile
12-22-2007, 09:46 AM
But it wasn't just one game he bet on. He would pretty much every game so it wouldn't mess with the pitchers that much.

Who cares? I mean honestly, why are people attempting to justify Rose's actions by comparing them to steroid use? Neither one of them is good for the sport we love.

Yeah, Steroids are worse because at the moment theirs an epidemic going on, but back in 1919 there was an epidemic of gambling as it's been widely documented that fixing the Series was almost commonplace back then and the Sox just were the team that got caught and publicly humiliated. That doesn't justify or even mitigate what the 1919 team did and in the end Baseball cleaned it up.

Now gambling on baseball is so rare that no one gets caught doing it, so obviously the controls put in place were effective. Now it's time to do for PED what they did to gambling nearly 90 years ago.

Oh and Rose still sucks. He still deserves to be banned and I hope they never reinstate his whining lying cheating ass...

FarWestChicago
12-22-2007, 09:55 AM
Who cares? I mean honestly, why are people attempting to justify Rose's actions by comparing them to steroid use? Neither one of them is good for the sport we love.Nobody is trying to justify Rose's actions. He's an ass. But, to compare what he did to the steroid era is beyond absurd. One guy did something unethical versus who knows how many, 60%? I'm tired of the 'roids apologists. 'Roiders suck. They should face Olympic sanctions, including suspensions and stripping of records and awards. I'm sorry some here grew up in an era when most of their heroes were cheating bastards.

Oblong
12-22-2007, 10:38 AM
What's the process for stripping someone of a record? A record is just that, a record of something that happened. You can't say that it didn't happen anymore. Who would you strip? Is there a championship belt that they must hand over? Baseball and olympic sports are apples and oranges. Records in baseball are a collective effort. In olympic sports it's easier because it's individual. If someone at the top gets caught, then everybody else moves up a notch. Baseball records are intertwined. Baseball let this happen and they have to live with it, warts and all. Getting a few scapeboats defeats the purpose. It may make people feel better about themselves because it makes them feel they "did something" but nothing is done.

Gambling on baseball by a participant is far more than just "unethical". If it were then it wouldn't be the single thing posted in clubhouses to not do. There's a reason it gets such special attention. It's akin to a therapist gossiping or a priest fooling around. Those are things that aren't really a big deal except in that particular profession.

FarWestChicago
12-22-2007, 10:44 AM
What's the process for stripping someone of a record? A record is just that, a record of something that happened. You can't say that it didn't happen anymore. Who would you strip? Is there a championship belt that they must hand over? Baseball and olympic sports are apples and oranges. Records in baseball are a collective effort. In olympic sports it's easier because it's individual. If someone at the top gets caught, then everybody else moves up a notch. Baseball records are intertwined. Baseball let this happen and they have to live with it, warts and all. Getting a few scapeboats defeats the purpose. It may make people feel better about themselves because it makes them feel they "did something" but nothing is done. The Ol' "It's Hard" argument. It was a decent Who tune, but a lame pro-steroid argument. Barroids, McNopast, Sham-ME, buh-bye. Maris is the single season record holder. How hard was that?

I agree there isn't much you can do about which team won the World Series (except it's obvious the A's should forfeit that lone LaRoida title). But removing individual cheaters from the record books is no more difficult than it is in track and field.

Oblong
12-22-2007, 10:50 AM
It's not nothing to do with "Pro steroids" and the more you say it the weaker your argument gets.

Where is this record book?

There is no official distinction by MLB over the single season HR record. It's got nothing to do with "It's too hard" it's got to do with the fact that you can't do something to something that's not there. Just saying something doesn't make it true. Who says it? Where does baseball note the HR champ? Does Roger Maris's kids get a medal for it?

voodoochile
12-22-2007, 11:05 AM
It's not nothing to do with "Pro steroids" and the more you say it the weaker your argument gets.

Where is this record book?

There is no official distinction by MLB over the single season HR record. It's got nothing to do with "It's too hard" it's got to do with the fact that you can't do something to something that's not there. Just saying something doesn't make it true. Who says it? Where does baseball note the HR champ? Does Roger Maris's kids get a medal for it?

Actually, MLB does recognize individual records, though no one gets a medal. Not having your name at the top of the list at Cooperstown or being banned from the HOF as a suspected steroid user would have an impact on these dumbasses who cheated to make themselves into stars for ego and profit. If you can't strip the profit than crush their egos. Let them sit across the street with Gamblin' Rose and whine about the injustice of being the real record holders and not being able to be recognized for it.

Oblong
12-22-2007, 12:36 PM
But that puts too much punishment on the individual and not on MLB and the rest of the players for letting it happen. They share the blame. John Smoltz, Curt Schilling, all the ones who are now out after the Mitchell Report talking about the need for this should have been fighting for this 10 years ago but they were afraid of peer pressure and being called a rat. The union represents the players and they could have done more to clean the game up. It's pretty telling that only one guy who didn't cheat talked to Mitchell.

That's why baseball has to live with having cheaters at the top of their record books. It's not condoning what they did it's admitting their own collective faults. You can't let Bud and the other idiot head in the sand owners off the hook. Stripping phony titles is nothing but an empty gesture. It gives them the ability to say "We washed our hands of this" and they do not deserve that. They knew. Everybody knew.

I agree that steroids are awful and did a lot of harm to the game, I don't want you to lose sight of that. But where I disagree is when you say we need to strip things and remove records. I say those need to stay and not because the players earned the recognition but because MLB earned the stain and dishonor that comes with having cheaters at the top.

The fact that it was so pervasive and Rose was so isolated actually goes against the argument that we should go after the individuals. There's a reason it as pervasive and that's because everybody looked the other way.

voodoochile
12-22-2007, 12:40 PM
But that puts too much punishment on the individual and not on MLB and the rest of the players for letting it happen. They share the blame. John Smoltz, Curt Schilling, all the ones who are now out after the Mitchell Report talking about the need for this should have been fighting for this 10 years ago but they were afraid of peer pressure and being called a rat. The union represents the players and they could have done more to clean the game up. It's pretty telling that only one guy who didn't cheat talked to Mitchell.

That's why baseball has to live with having cheaters at the top of their record books. It's not condoning what they did it's admitting their own collective faults. You can't let Bud and the other idiot head in the sand owners off the hook. Stripping phony titles is nothing but an empty gesture. It gives them the ability to say "We washed our hands of this" and they do not deserve that. They knew. Everybody knew.

I agree that steroids are awful and did a lot of harm to the game, I don't want you to lose sight of that. But where I disagree is when you say we need to strip things and remove records. I say those need to stay and not because the players earned the recognition but because MLB earned the stain and dishonor that comes with having cheaters at the top.

The fact that it was so pervasive and Rose was so isolated actually goes against the argument that we should go after the individuals. There's a reason it as pervasive and that's because everybody looked the other way.

I agree. Everyone knew or should have known what was going on. Frank can't be the only guy who noticed it. Selig's legacy is forever tainted by presiding over the steroid era and taking WAY too long to do something about it.

I still say punish the ones you can prove did it or the ones who you suspect beyond a reasonable doubt. If nothing else it's one more incentive not to try to cheat the system in the future.

FarWestChicago
12-22-2007, 02:11 PM
But that puts too much punishment on the individual and not on MLB and the rest of the players for letting it happen.This is beyond an absurd statement. I've always thought of you as an excellent poster. But it seems you've checked your brain at the door on the steroid issue. Individuals are responsible for their own actions. Forgiving the cheaters because baseball didn't bust them is completely nonsensical.

:nandrolone

I'm liking this Oblong guy. It's not my fault my eyes look like this. Baseball made me do it by not testing me!

I should add we're approaching politics here and I'll probably have to close the thread; but I'm assuming you believe no criminals are guilty because society didn't do enough to stop them?

FarWestChicago
12-22-2007, 02:14 PM
Where is this record book? I guess I imagined Barroids "breaking" Hank Aaron's career home run record. I guess the record never existed. What was all the commotion about? :dunno:

I have to admit this is a novel new angle on ignoring the cheating 'roiders. "There are no records in baseball so it doesn't matter." :roflmao:

Oblong
12-22-2007, 02:26 PM
This is beyond an absurd statement. I've always thought of you as an excellent poster. But it seems you've checked your brain at the door on the steroid issue. Individuals are responsible for their own actions. Forgiving the cheaters because baseball didn't bust them is completely nonsensical.

:nandrolone

I'm liking this Oblong guy. It's not my fault my eyes look like this. Baseball made me do it by not testing me!

I should add we're approaching politics here and I'll probably have to close the thread; but I'm assuming you believe no criminals are guilty because society didn't do enough to stop them?

I've not said anything about forgiving them. I'm saying that MLB and the players association are just as guilty as the individual users because they all, at the very minimum, looked the other way while it was happening. And I think I'm being too generous there. The non using players could have fought for better testing to show they were using. The owners could have made a PR move to try to force the PA's hand. They didn't care because they were getting rich off of it too. Numbers were going up, salaries were going up. Attendance and ratings were going up so revenue was going up. By going after the individuals then it lets the other ones off the hook. In a way I'm going one step further than you by including everybody.

The punishment for guys like McGwire and Sosa will be their non induction into the HOF. Clemens and Bonds look pretty iffy now too. Arguably the best hitter and best pitcher from the past 50 years will not make the HOF. That's pretty damning.

If they came out tomorrow and said "First time users of steroids, 50 game supsensions, second time users go to the permanent ineligible list" I'd sign up for that in a second.

FarWestChicago
12-22-2007, 02:43 PM
I've not said anything about forgiving them. I'm saying that MLB and the players association are just as guilty as the individual users because they all, at the very minimum, looked the other way while it was happening. And I think I'm being too generous there. The non using players could have fought for better testing to show they were using. The owners could have made a PR move to try to force the PA's hand. They didn't care because they were getting rich off of it too. Numbers were going up, salaries were going up. Attendance and ratings were going up so revenue was going up. By going after the individuals then it lets the other ones off the hook. In a way I'm going one step further than you by including everybody.

The punishment for guys like McGwire and Sosa will be their non induction into the HOF. Clemens and Bonds look pretty iffy now too. Arguably the best hitter and best pitcher from the past 50 years will not make the HOF. That's pretty damning.

If they came out tomorrow and said "First time users of steroids, 50 game supsensions, second time users go to the permanent ineligible list" I'd sign up for that in a second.You are right about the union and the owners. They are ultimately responsible. But, you can't excuse the cheaters. Not only keep them out of the hall, expunge their stats. Wipe them out. And go Olympic. First time user gets two years; second time is gone. Why mollycoddle millionaires? I guarantee if you were caught using illegal drugs at your place of work your butt would be in a sling.

Fenway
12-22-2007, 03:50 PM
Go back 19 years to 1988.

Canada was ashamed by Ben Johnson being found to be a fraud.

Now I don't recall what exactly sent the Fenway crowd into hysterics in the ALCS over Jose. The Mitchell report mentions a Thomas Boswell column that may have been reprinted in the Boston Globe. The Johnson fiasco in the Olympics had just happened. MLB did not care.

The only point I was making was that MLB DID have a solid rule on gambling but drugs was a grey area. The union would not allow testing, MLB didn't push it. Selig takes the brunt of it but it goes back 3 czars of MLB that did't do anything.

FarWestChicago
12-22-2007, 04:30 PM
The only point I was making was that MLB DID have a solid rule on gambling but drugs was a grey area. The union would not allow testing, MLB didn't push it. Selig takes the brunt of it but it goes back 3 czars of MLB that did't do anything.You and Obs are right about the culpability of the union and MLB. I just think the cheaters need to fry, too. :smile:

Fenway
12-22-2007, 04:36 PM
You and Obs are right about the culpability of the union and MLB. I just think the cheaters need to fry, too. :smile:

I'll light the first match for Roger :D:

TheVulture
12-22-2007, 05:07 PM
This is beyond an absurd statement.

Yeah, it's absurd when taken out of context. Add his next statement "they share the blame" and *voila*, all of a sudden you have a reasonable, rational statement. Funny how that works.

jabrch
12-22-2007, 05:18 PM
But it seems you've checked your brain at the door on the steroid issue.

I'm not surprised Tigers fans, Yankees fans, As fans, etc. aren't taking a hardline on this. After all, they are the ones that continue to support the Sheffields, Ivan Rodriguezs, etc. of the world.

Next thing you know, we will have an As fan come over here telling us that we shouldn't look negatively upon Canseco/McGwire/etc and some Bonds and Clemens fans telling us that they definitely should be HOFers since they have not been convicted of a crime and they are no worse than Ty Cobb who is in the HOF?

soxinem1
12-22-2007, 08:31 PM
Nobody is trying to justify Rose's actions. He's an ass. But, to compare what he did to the steroid era is beyond absurd. One guy did something unethical versus who knows how many, 60%? I'm tired of the 'roids apologists. 'Roiders suck. They should face Olympic sanctions, including suspensions and stripping of records and awards. I'm sorry some here grew up in an era when most of their heroes were cheating bastards.

I agree with most of what you state, but the roiders and gamblers do effect the game in different ways.

Gamblers and those in on any fixes are the direct befeficiaries, but the player using steriods by default does benefit his team if usage of these suppliments gives him more power, stamina, fastball, etc.

While cheaters and liars like Marion Jones, Canseco, and Bonds should be stripped of awards, only the Olympic rules have been strong enough to strip titles, as since there are no lawsuit and grievance filing players associations ready to jump in and immediatlely start ****, just like the MLBPAA just did for Jose Guillen.

Oblong
12-23-2007, 01:43 AM
I'm not surprised Tigers fans, Yankees fans, As fans, etc. aren't taking a hardline on this. After all, they are the ones that continue to support the Sheffields, Ivan Rodriguezs, etc. of the world.



What records of Sheffield and Rodriquez would you like to have stripped?

If they fail a test, kick them out. How much plainer can that get? A cheap shot is indicative of a weak argument.