PDA

View Full Version : WEEI White Sox and Boston have a deal in place for Coco BUT


Fenway
12-20-2007, 09:29 AM
Sean McAdam on WEEI this morning says the Red Sox and White Sox have a deal in place that would bring Coco to 35th St but it all depends on what happens in the next few days.

Santana to Boston is on the front burner again and reports out of St Paul indicate it may happen shortly. If Elsbury is included then Coco stays in Boston. If not he goes to the White Sox.

Boston would send Coco and one minor league pitcher to Chicago ( believed to be Michael Bowden (http://www.soxprospects.com/players/bowden-michael.htm) who is from Illinois )

Chicago would send three prospects one of which would be John Shelby who Theo is high on.

WizardsofOzzie
12-20-2007, 09:31 AM
As long as Gio, Danks, and Fields stay I'm not too upset about it.

EDIT: I just remembered how much Coco is making.....Not so thrilled anymore

Jerko
12-20-2007, 09:31 AM
Awesome.

btrain929
12-20-2007, 09:32 AM
Innnnnnnnnteresting. Hmmm, if this is true, I wonder what other prospects Boston would be interested in.

I personally can't see Boston giving Ellsbury to MINN. I think Coco will go there eventually, so I doubt this specific deal will go thru.

chisoxmike
12-20-2007, 09:32 AM
****

veeter
12-20-2007, 09:33 AM
Sean McAdam on WEEI this morning says the Red Sox and White Sox have a deal in place that would bring Coco to 35th St but it all depends on what happens in the next few days.

Santana to Boston is on the front burner again and reports out of St Paul indicate it may happen shortly. If Elsbury is included then Coco stays in Boston. If not he goes to the White Sox.

Boston would send Coco and one minor league pitcher to Chicago ( believed to be Michael Bowden (http://www.soxprospects.com/players/bowden-michael.htm) who is from Illinois )

Chicago would send three prospects one of which would be John Shelby who Theo is high on.Bowden went to Waubansee in Aurora. He throws very hard. I would like it depending on who we sent.

Fenway
12-20-2007, 09:34 AM
Boston doesn't need anything for the short term so prospects is the way they will go.

Optipessimism
12-20-2007, 09:45 AM
As long as Gio, Danks, and Fields stay I'm not too upset about it.

EDIT: I just remembered how much Coco is making.....Not so thrilled anymore
One of those three would go for sure. It's not even a question. Maybe DLS too, I'm afraid, since KW apparently almost shipped out Carter for a middle reliever. I can see him giving up something like Gio/Danks + DLS + Shelby for Crisp + Bowden. That would be horrible. Beyond horrible. Well, well, well beyond horrible. If something like that goes down, the "Fire KW" threads will pop up in numbers never before seen.

sodfatherjunior
12-20-2007, 09:47 AM
It should be clearly obvious to everyone that Covelli is going to come to the South Side..........he's a former Indian

sorry if this has already been mentioned.

Lip Man 1
12-20-2007, 09:47 AM
Shelby has performed very well in his minor league stints. I saw him in Great Falls in 2006 with Roland.

Lip

Tragg
12-20-2007, 09:50 AM
Three prospects for Coco Crisp? Has Kenny lost his mind? OBPs of .330 and .317 the last 2 years, with no power? I don't care if they are A ball prospects - why give up anything for that level of production? And A ball players become your top prospects after a few years.

I know he's an ozzie-style player: he swings at everything, has no power and of course, he is a veteran. But he can't play leadoff with his OBPs. And in any rational analysis, the only difference between him and Owens is that he is a veteran. Ozzie's loading up the team with hack veterans netted 72 wins last year.

If this is what the Sox are down to, stick with Owens. He's free. THREE prospects for OPS of .710? That's the best deal you can cut?

Fenway
12-20-2007, 09:51 AM
from St Paul



The Boston Red Sox remain the favorite to acquire Johan Santana from the Twins, insiders say.
Boston remains firm, though, as initially reported by the Pioneer Press, in offering just Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson. The Red Sox are adamantly opposed to substituting Jacoby Ellsbury for Crisp, and that's the current holdup. Regardless, there's buzz that the Santana trade could be made within days.

http://www.twincities.com/ci_7755433?source=most_viewed

Nothing in the Boston papers this morning. In fact for the first time in memory the Globe doesn't have a single Red Sox story.

Jerko
12-20-2007, 09:51 AM
Well when all this CF stuff started I said to myself, "ABC". Anybody but Crisp. I can only hope Fenway is using Otis' source....

munchman33
12-20-2007, 09:51 AM
Coco is better than Jerry Owens, Ryan Sweeney, and Brian Anderson. His contract is reasonable and below market.

If Kenny really expects to compete this year, he should make this move. I still don't think it's enough, but it brings us a lot closer to competing. We'd be filling a gaping hole with a better than average major league player.

I honestly didn't think this would still be an option. I hope it pans out.

edit: wait, we'd get Bowden too? holy crap, give them what they want!

Optipessimism
12-20-2007, 09:53 AM
.289/.329/.409, Kenny. .289/.329/.409. That's what you want to overpay for.

START RYAN SWEENEY!!!

JUST SAY NO TO COCO!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE OH GOD SAY NO TO COCO CRISP!!!!!

Optipessimism
12-20-2007, 09:55 AM
Coco is better than Jerry Owens, Ryan Sweeney, and Brian Anderson. His contract is reasonable and below market.

If Kenny really expects to compete this year, he should make this move. I still don't think it's enough, but it brings us a lot closer to competing. We'd be filling a gaping hole with a better than average major league player.

I honestly didn't think this would still be an option. I hope it pans out.
If Kenny expects us to compete this year he's nuts. And a healthy Ryan Sweeney next year could very well be better than Coco. A healthy Anderson having made some adjustments could approach that. Jerry Owens, with no arm, at least doesn't cost prospects.

If we're getting back Bowden that means we're giving up top prospects. For Coco Crisp. That scares the ****ing **** out of me.

alohafri
12-20-2007, 09:58 AM
I sure wish I knew what Kenny's facination is with Covelli Crisp! Baseball-Reference compares him with Chris Singleton...not exactly a guy you go hard after.

Maybe Crisp has pictures of Kenny.

HawkDJ
12-20-2007, 10:02 AM
Using his Boston numbers, Crisp is only a slight improvement over Owens. He hit a few more home runs but stole a few less bases. I suppose Kenny is hoping with regular playing time and nobody breathing down his neck (Brian Anderson?) he will return to the numbers he posted in 2004 and 2005 in Cleveland. An OPS near .800 and an OBP near .345 is not too shabby.

btrain929
12-20-2007, 10:02 AM
One of those three would go for sure. It's not even a question. Maybe DLS too, I'm afraid, since KW apparently almost shipped out Carter for a middle reliever. I can see him giving up something like Gio/Danks + DLS + Shelby for Crisp + Bowden. That would be horrible. Beyond horrible. Well, well, well beyond horrible. If something like that goes down, the "Fire KW" threads will pop up in numbers never before seen.

I'll bet you anything you want that none of those guys go to Boston for Coco. Don't you think you'd hear one of their names on the radio report instead of John Shelby?

Tragg
12-20-2007, 10:03 AM
Coco is better than Jerry Owens, Ryan Sweeney, and Brian Anderson. His contract is reasonable and below market.

If Kenny really expects to compete this year, he should make this move. I still don't think it's enough, but it brings us a lot closer to competing. We'd be filling a gaping hole with a better than average major league player.

In what way is Crisp better than Owens and how does he move this team closer to being a contender?

And to whoever suggests DLS will be traded and/or Gio and Danks....that's just beyond the stars to think that would happen. Completely irrational trade. I think it's a bad trade with low A prospects who have a lot of promise (because Crisp is a nothing). But top Sox prospects? My goodness. How about giving Boston what we got for Iguchi. That's fair.

If this trade goes through, Williams will now have 4 Centerfielders who don't hit very well. The next move will be Anderson will be given away.

Carolina Kenny
12-20-2007, 10:04 AM
Shelby has performed very well in his minor league stints. I saw him in Great Falls in 2006 with Roland.

Lip

It's Rowand not Roland.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 10:04 AM
If Kenny expects us to compete this year he's nuts. And a healthy Ryan Sweeney next year could very well be better than Coco. A healthy Anderson having made some adjustments could approach that. Jerry Owens, with no arm, at least doesn't cost prospects.

If we're getting back Bowden that means we're giving up top prospects. For Coco Crisp. That scares the ****ing **** out of me.

Just because Sweeney and Anderson get healthy doesn't mean they'll produce at a ML level.

We'd be getting back Bowden? I don't understand that. He'd immediately become our third best prospect after Gio. Bowden was a first round pick a few years back, and pitched decently in AA this year. Sound more like this would be a salary dump, and we'd be getting the plus prospect (four pitches, all could become mlb plus). I'm all for it, as long as it doesn't involve Gio or DLS, we get better at the major league and minor league levels.

Scottiehaswheels
12-20-2007, 10:05 AM
It's Rowand not Roland.I think he meant Hemond.

voodoochile
12-20-2007, 10:06 AM
Using his Boston numbers, Crisp is only a slight improvement over Owens. He hit a few more home runs but stole a few less bases. I suppose Kenny is hoping with regular playing time and nobody breathing down his neck (Brian Anderson?) he will return to the numbers he posted in 2004 and 2005 in Cleveland. An OPS near .800 and an OBP near .345 is not too shabby.

At least the Sox would know that Coco can put up those numbers you seem sure Owens can. I agree that Owens should improve on last year and be fine, but there are no guarantees. Coco gives the team a viable backup option for CF and LF if either Quentin or Owens falter where you know what you will get with the potential to be even better than expected and it really doesn't cost that much if he fails.

I wouldn't be surprised if BA is one of those prospects...

munchman33
12-20-2007, 10:07 AM
In what way is Crisp better than Owens and how does he move this team closer to being a contender?

Better outfielder, better instincts, more power, can bunt and move runners over, plays the game right. His OBP isn't great (neither was Owens), but at least part of that can be attributed to his ability to sacrifice himself for the team. At best, Owens projects to Crisp.

And if you read my other posts, I think we're getting the better end of a prospects swap.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 10:08 AM
And to whoever suggests DLS will be traded and/or Gio and Danks....that's just beyond the stars to think that would happen. Completely irrational trade. I think it's a bad trade with low A prospects who have a lot of promise (because Crisp is a nothing). But top Sox prospects? My goodness.

We are getting a top prospect back in this trade.

Optipessimism
12-20-2007, 10:09 AM
I'll bet you anything you want that none of those guys go to Boston for Coco. Don't you think you'd hear one of their names on the radio report instead of John Shelby?

You're talking about Kenny Williams who obviously loves Coco (as does the whole Sox organization apparently for whatever reason) and Theo who has obviously been overvaluing him since he thinks Coco should be a key piece in a Santana deal.

We're getting back Bowden. This kid has an arm. We're not getting that unless we're trading pitching, since pitching is the only thing we have to trade right now. We wouldn't be getting Bowden back if we weren't trading at least one of Gio/Danks plus... If Kenny does make this deal I hope he's looking at the Broadway/Egbert/Floyd tier for the second player and not DLS. I have a bad, bad feeling it's DLS and I hope to God I am wrong.

The Immigrant
12-20-2007, 10:09 AM
I think he meant Hemond.

Nah, Aaron Rowand took time off in 2006 to scout the Great Falls team with Lip.

Fenway
12-20-2007, 10:10 AM
Give Coco this much...not much will get by him in CF at USCF.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 10:11 AM
You're talking about Kenny Williams who obviously loves Coco (as does the whole Sox organization apparently for whatever reason) and Theo who has obviously been overvaluing him since he thinks Coco should be a key piece in a Santana deal.

We're getting back Bowden. This kid has an arm. We're not getting that unless we're trading pitching, since pitching is the only thing we have to trade right now. We wouldn't be getting Bowden back if we weren't trading at least one of Gio/Danks plus... If Kenny does make this deal I hope he's looking at the Broadway/Egbert/Floyd tier for the second player and not DLS. I have a bad, bad feeling it's DLS and I hope to God I am wrong.

It'll probably be Anderson or Sweeney, along with Broadway and Shelby.

That would be a more than fair trade for us. A steal, except that we're taking on salary.

Optipessimism
12-20-2007, 10:12 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if BA is one of those prospects...
Isn't BA out of options after this year? Why would Boston want him when they are going with Ellsbury? Shelby is a CF. They wouldn't need or want Anderson.

voodoochile
12-20-2007, 10:12 AM
Give Coco this much...not much will get by him in CF at USCF.

Yeah and now we've got two+ days to discuss it... Thanks, Fens...:tongue:

Optipessimism
12-20-2007, 10:16 AM
It'll probably be Anderson or Sweeney, along with Broadway and Shelby.

That would be a more than fair trade for us. A steal, except that we're taking on salary.

A couple million dollars difference in salary isn't worth Bowden. The only way we'd get this guy back is if we're giving up way too much, i.e. at least one of our best 2 SP prospects and Shelby. Anderson and Sweeney don't have that kind of value.

Tragg
12-20-2007, 10:16 AM
Give Coco this much...not much will get by him in CF at USCF.
We have one of those, too; and with a gun-arm. He can't hit either.

hi im skot
12-20-2007, 10:16 AM
Jerry Owens > Coco Crisp.

Scottiehaswheels
12-20-2007, 10:17 AM
Nah, Aaron Rowand took time off in 2006 to scout the Great Falls team with Lip.Ha well he did break his face in '06 right? Course if Rowand is scouting our "talent" with only one good eye, it could be a reason our "talent" sucks.

voodoochile
12-20-2007, 10:18 AM
Isn't BA out of options after this year? Why would Boston want him when they are going with Ellsbury? Shelby is a CF. They wouldn't need or want Anderson.

I don't know, I'm just thinking that Coco isn't worth much so BA seemed like a logical choice. Oh and I do find the BA is taking things seriously fluff article a bit suspicious. I think it's a plant. My guess is the agent talked to the Sox about trading BA and the Sox told him BA had the trade value of a used chicken drumstick and that if they would prefer to keep him at this point to see if he ever matured into what they hoped he would when they drafted him and that if the agent and BA wanted a trade they had to build up BA's trade value. Since there wasn't a way to do that by playing, they released a tell all article about the poor misguided youth who is now taking things seriously in the hopes other teams would look favorably on his honesty and new found work ethic and ask that he be included in a trade package.

Either way, it was just a guess...

Flight #24
12-20-2007, 10:18 AM
I can't believe Boston would give away a pretty good prospect for a salary dump. They're not in any way shape or form hurting for cash. If anything, they'd be more likely IMO to send cash along with Crisp to get the better prospect back.

voodoochile
12-20-2007, 10:20 AM
I can't believe Boston would give away a pretty good prospect for a salary dump. They're not in any way shape or form hurting for cash. If anything, they'd be more likely IMO to send cash along with Crisp to get the better prospect back.

Even their well isn't bottomless and adding Santana to their team has the potential to add $20M+ to the payroll next year alone. They aren't going to trade off several of their best young players for a guy they don't expect to keep.

Optipessimism
12-20-2007, 10:22 AM
I don't know, I'm just thinking that Coco isn't worth much so BA seemed like a logical choice. Oh and I do find the BA is taking things seriously fluff article a bit suspicious. I think it's a plant. My guess is the agent talked to the Sox about trading BA and the Sox told him BA had the trade value of a used chicken drumstick and that if they would prefer to keep him at this point to see if he ever matured into what they hoped he would when they drafted him and that if the agent and BA wanted a trade they had to build up BA's trade value. Since there wasn't a way to do that by playing, they released a tell all article about the poor misguided youth who is now taking things seriously in the hopes other teams would look favorably on his honesty and new found work ethic and ask that he be included in a trade package.

Either way, it was just a guess...

I think there are some teams that still see value in Anderson, because I still think he has a Torii Hunter-like ceiling, but the way the Sox have handled him, plus his injuries, plus his reputation, pretty much only leaves teams like the Pirates and Royals if they deal DeJesus as options IMO.

I agree though that the agent comments were all just fluff. The Sox are done with BA and everyone knows it.

Tragg
12-20-2007, 10:23 AM
Let me guess - Bowden throws hard. "Plus stuff". Not a control pitcher.

Same story.

Isn't Crisp's contract reasonable? Why would the Sox want cash back (always means you give up more talent)? For how many more years is he signed?

Hitmen77
12-20-2007, 10:24 AM
Jerry Owens > Coco Crisp.

But, how do they compare defensively in CF? One of my big concerns with going into 08 with Owens as our starting CF is that I don't think he would be a good defensive CF.

I'm not saying I want Crisp to come here....really it all depends on how much we have to give up to get him.

spiffie
12-20-2007, 10:31 AM
Let me guess - Bowden throws hard. "Plus stuff". Not a control pitcher.

Same story.

Isn't Crisp's contract reasonable? Why would the Sox want cash back (always means you give up more talent)? For how many more years is he signed?
Here's what sox-prospects.com has to say about Bowden.


Scouting Report: Bowden is a big righty strikeout starter with ace potential. He is an advanced pitcher for his age, but still has a ways to go to reach his potential. He has an arsenal of four pitches that have the potential to be big-league caliber: a low-90s four-seam fastball which tops out around 95, a 12-6 hard breaking curve, a tight slider, and a developing circle changeup with plus potential. His main pitch, the four-seamer, has a late, heavy sinking movement. Also, Bowden has a two-seamer that is a few mph off of his four-seamer with a bit more movement. His changeup sits in the low 80s, about 10 mph off of his fastball - has room for improvement. His slider sits around 81 mph and curveball in the mid 70s, but he doesn't utilize it all that often. Secondary stuff isn't dominant at this point, and he relies a little too much on his fastball. Overall, Bowden has a very good command of the zone, but could stand to miss a few more bats. One aspect that should come with more experience is improved pitchability against advanced hitters. Delivery is somewhat unconventional, almost 3/4 style, with a leaning motion while dropping his head a bit - but he's able to maintain it throughout his outings. Bowden is said to be a workaholic and just loves to pitch - another player who just lives and dies for baseball. Very athletic.

I could care less about Coco Crisp, but if this kid is included I'm suddenly intrigued by the deal.

ma-gaga
12-20-2007, 10:32 AM
The "source" from Saint Paul is Charlie Walters. He's garbage. Seriously, there are 5 or 6 "garbage" writers in the Twin Cities media and Walters is probably the second worst of the bunch. Lets' see, I'd probably rank them (best to worst): Sansevere, Reusse, Hartman, Walters, Souhan. But I dislike Souhan with a vengence, and he usually doesn't throw out rumors. So, I think you could make a good case that Walters is the worst of the worst.

If you want a real source, I'd stick with LEN3 (http://nc.startribune.com/blogs/neal/), or Joe Christensen (http://nc.startribune.com/blogs/christensen/). They are the beat writers for the Star Tribune. They have actual sources, and a modicum of restraint of publishing something that may not be true. And heck, just looking at those links, they both have a blog entry regarding the Twins/Santana deal made in the last day. Each of which has more actual information than anything that Shooter will write.

Then again WEII is never wrong. The Red Sox are probably just in their 'negotiating' window with Santana.

:cool:

WizardsofOzzie
12-20-2007, 10:32 AM
It's Rowand not Roland.
:?:

Tadahito
12-20-2007, 10:33 AM
Getting Bowden would be pretty nice. I saw him pitch a few times when he was in high school, and have closely followed him throughout the minors and he would be one of the top pitchers in our system without question. After simply dominating A ball last year he got promoted to Portland (AA) where he was the youngest player on any AA team in any league. And while he struggled early on in AA, he settled down towards the end of the season. He is going to be just 21 next season and in his 2nd season in AA, that's pretty damn impressive.

Flight #24
12-20-2007, 10:36 AM
It's Rowand not Roland.

I'm confused - are we talking about Rowand Hemond or Aaron Roland?

Juice16
12-20-2007, 10:40 AM
Awesome.

Totally.

dickallen15
12-20-2007, 10:45 AM
Jerry Owens > Coco Crisp.
BS. Crisp is a good player. He's been banged up the past 2 seasons. Jermaine Dye was pretty mediocre in Oakland when KW gave him $5 million a year or so, and he worked out fine. Crisp would be a good addition.

WizardsofOzzie
12-20-2007, 10:48 AM
I'm confused - are we talking about Rowand Hemond or Aaron Roland?

I thought we were talking about Pants Rowland

spiffie
12-20-2007, 10:53 AM
I thought we were talking about Pants Rowland
Just in case we've all forgotten how Pants got that name. http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=486807&postcount=59

munchman33
12-20-2007, 10:54 AM
Let me guess - Bowden throws hard. "Plus stuff". Not a control pitcher.

Same story.


Actually no. He has very good control and a plus fastball. He needs to refine his other pitches, but can locate them okay. Just uses his fastball too much at this point.

But when you throw 95+ with control, throwing your fastball too much might not be a problem.

mjmcend
12-20-2007, 10:56 AM
If Kenny expects us to compete this year he's nuts. And a healthy Ryan Sweeney next year could very well be better than Coco. A healthy Anderson having made some adjustments could approach that. Jerry Owens, with no arm, at least doesn't cost prospects.

If we're getting back Bowden that means we're giving up top prospects. For Coco Crisp. That scares the ****ing **** out of me.

The problem is that Kenny has approached the offseason like he expects us to contend next year and Crisp will help with that. I think we are in trouble because we haven't committed fully to either playing for next year or rebuilding and we are doing a crappy job of doing both.

ChiSoxLifer
12-20-2007, 10:56 AM
I sure wish I knew what Kenny's facination is with Covelli Crisp! Baseball-Reference compares him with Chris Singleton...not exactly a guy you go hard after.

Maybe Crisp has pictures of Kenny.

But...what do the Sox need another announcer for? Didn't they just sign Steve Stone?

Sargeant79
12-20-2007, 11:00 AM
Of course, my opinion on the subject could change depending on which of our prospects are included, but count me among those in the minority that think that acquiring Crisp is not a bad idea. He plays excellent defense (significantly better than Jerry Owens) and is rather fast. He does need improvement in his OBP, but he has a very reasonable contract for the next few years.

Also, I was talking with a friend of mine who is a die-hard Red Sox fan who said that sometimes good players just have difficulty playing in the Boston atmosphere (see Edgar Renteria). Crisp had success in Cleveland and absolutely killed us for a couple of years. I think this may be a good chance to acquire a guy who still has some upside at a time in his career when he would be entering his prime, if he has one.

On top of this, I would love to get Michael Bowden. I would be very surprised, however, if he is included in a deal for just BA, Shelby, and another player. If Bowden is in this deal, we may be giving up more than I would be comfortable with...he is by all accounts an excellent prospect with a lot of upside.

EMel9281
12-20-2007, 11:03 AM
I have no problem with Crisp as long as he learned how to wear his hat on his head...straight!

Chez
12-20-2007, 11:04 AM
I'm confused - are we talking about Rowand Hemond or Aaron Roland?
Aaron Roland -- the headless Thompson gunner. Talkin' about the man. :cool:

HawkDJ
12-20-2007, 11:05 AM
Jerry Owens > Coco Crisp.

Well that's just absurd.

Heffalump
12-20-2007, 11:05 AM
My understanding is that we want Crisp for his speed and leadoff abilities, right?

Well, over the last five years his SB totals have been 15, 20, 15, 22, 28. His OBP has been .302, .344, .345, .317, .330.

Jerry Owens stole 32 bases and had a .324 OBP last year in a bit over half a season (his first one in the majors at that).

Now I am by no means a Jerry Owens lover, but I really don’t understand how Coco is a huge upgrade over Owens. We know what he is going to give you, however Owens has only approx. 90 games in the big leagues so his upside could be great. Why not give him a shot, keep the prospects in an already depleted farm system, and use the cash that would go to pay Crisp for a veteran starter or a few veteran relievers….I know, I know, who would I suggest as there is not much out there? I can’t say, but I just don’t understand how Crisp is a big upgrade in CF.

Also, remember a few years ago when Owens had that big season in the minors? Everyone thought he might be the second coming of Ricky Henderson. Now, after an average rookie campaign in only 90 games, everybody wants to dump him? It always riles me a bit that the Sox compain about not having the talent come up from the minors, but they don't give the guys they do have an adequate chance to make good. For example: Owens, Sweeney, Anderson (please don't make this an Anderson thread-he sucked badly in the first half of 06, but was improving in the second half), even Jeff Abbott.

IMO, not everyone can be a Frank Thomas and murder MLB pitching from his first day in the majors. Most guys require quite a bit of seasoning.

cards press box
12-20-2007, 11:08 AM
Coco Crisp would give the Sox a top defender in center, a leadoff man and, if Owens and Sweeney become the Sox' 4th and 5th outfielders, depth on the bench.

October26
12-20-2007, 11:08 AM
Um no. I say no to Coco Crisp. If this trade goes through, it would ruin my birthday (today) and my days off next week. Not that Kenny's going to call me or anything, but here's hoping it doesn't happen. Not interested in seeing any Red Sox rejects on my team.

I was hoping for some good WHITE SOX news to be announce today.

btrain929
12-20-2007, 11:16 AM
Um no. I say no to Coco Crisp. If this trade goes through, it would ruin my birthday (today) and my days off next week. Not that Kenny's going to call me or anything, but here's hoping it doesn't happen. Not interested in seeing any Red Sox rejects on my team.

I was hoping for some good WHITE SOX news to be announce today.

Your bday present was yesterday, finding out that Steve Stone would be on White Sox Radio in '08.

Stop being greedy.....

infohawk
12-20-2007, 11:28 AM
Here's my humble opinion....

The Sox have a good core of players to build around. We often forget how much talent there is on a team that has Konerko, Thome, Dye, Cabrera, A.J., Buerhle, Vazquez and Jenks. If we keep Crede, he's in that group too. I just don't know what's going to happen with him. Even so, Fields needs some work with the glove, but his bat seems pretty potent and he could be another key cog in the offense. Many of our hitters had awful years last year and are due to "regress" to the mean. Just their average production would be an improvement over last year.

Assuming they do rebound, the glaring problem with the Sox last year was a number of absolute sinkholes that can derail any team. If KW can just fill those holes with enough talent to make them at least "average," this team will improve tremendously. I'm not necessarily convinced that this improvement will be enough to get to the playoffs, but that has more to do with the current state of the division, what with the Indians and Tigers being so dominant right now. Still, a team with a good core and no glaring weaknesses at least has a chance.

I think KW has addressed one glaring weakness by upgrading to Cabrera at short. He will reach base more and strike out less than Uribe. It also gives the team a functional hitter in the two-spot. For all the criticism KW took for spending so much on Linebrink, he will be a huge upgrade over the trainwreck we saw last year when nobody seemed able to reliably get the ball to Bobby. Even if Linebrink isn't great, he's a significant upgrade over what happened last year. That can be a credit to Linebrink or a shot at last year's performance, however one wants to take it.

I don't know what we'll get from Quenton, but it can't be worse than what we got out of leftfield last year, which was pretty much nothing. Quenton has upside so we can hope for the best.

We don't need a world-beater in center. What we do need is a player who can add to the functionality of our offense and play capable defense. Crisp, if acquired, can do that. He's not blessed with a great arm, but can run balls down in center, hit for average and might make a good tandem with Cabrera in setting the table for the power in the middle. Crisp isn't a star player, but fits the bill of eliminating a glaring weakness.

In short, we will be a vastly improved team if KW can simply upgrade the voids to at least league-average performances or slightly better than league-average. This can also be done without "blowing the bank" on non-superstar players. If KW finishes filling these holes, the season may very well come down to how well two out of the Danks, Floyd and Contreras group pitch. If the Sox are at least solid, then we can hope that the Indians and Tigers stumble a bit.

AzureJazzMan
12-20-2007, 11:28 AM
Seriously, why on earth would we want Crisp, when Owens numbers (at this time in their collective careers) are better. Plus, there is more upside to Owens than Crisp. Save the money, and use it for something worthwhile.

BTW it's my birthday too... :happybday

JorgeFabregas
12-20-2007, 11:32 AM
How much more upside does Owens have than Crisp? Aren't they about 14 or 15 months apart in age?

Crisp = better OPS
Crisp = better defender

Heffalump
12-20-2007, 11:35 AM
How much more upside does Owens have than Crisp? Aren't they about 14 or 15 months apart in age?

Crisp = better OPS
Crisp = better defender

The upside is that Owens is practically a rookie with no experience. Crisp has been around for awhile so you pretty much know what he is going to give you every year. Chronological age has nothing to do with it.

btrain929
12-20-2007, 11:39 AM
Here's my humble opinion....

The Sox have a good core of players to build around. We often forget how much talent there is on a team that has Konerko, Thome, Dye, Cabrera, A.J., Buerhle, Vazquez and Jenks. If we keep Crede, he's in that group too. I just don't know what's going to happen with him. Even so, Fields needs some work with the glove, but his bat seems pretty potent and he could be another key cog in the offense. Many of our hitters had awful years last year and are due to "regress" to the mean. Just their average production would be an improvement over last year.

Assuming they do rebound, the glaring problem with the Sox last year was a number of absolute sinkholes that can derail any team. If KW can just fill those holes with enough talent to make them at least "average," this team will improve tremendously. I'm not necessarily convinced that this improvement will be enough to get to the playoffs, but that has more to do with the current state of the division, what with the Indians and Tigers being so dominant right now. Still, a team with a good core and no glaring weaknesses at least has a chance.

I think KW has addressed one glaring weakness by upgrading to Cabrera at short. He will reach base more and strike out less than Uribe. It also gives the team a functional hitter in the two-spot. For all the criticism KW took for spending so much on Linebrink, he will be a huge upgrade over the trainwreck we saw last year when nobody seemed able to reliably get the ball to Bobby. Even if Linebrink isn't great, he's a significant upgrade over what happened last year. That can be a credit to Linebrink or a shot at last year's performance, however one wants to take it.

I don't know what we'll get from Quenton, but it can't be worse than what we got out of leftfield last year, which was pretty much nothing. Quenton has upside so we can hope for the best.

We don't need a world-beater in center. What we do need is a player who can add to the functionality of our offense and play capable defense. Crisp, if acquired, can do that. He's not blessed with a great arm, but can run balls down in center, hit for average and might make a good tandem with Cabrera in setting the table for the power in the middle. Crisp isn't a star player, but fits the bill of eliminating a glaring weakness.

In short, we will be a vastly improved team if KW can simply upgrade the voids to at least league-average performances or slightly better than league-average. This can also be done without "blowing the bank" on non-superstar players. If KW finishes filling these holes, the season may very well come down to how well two out of the Danks, Floyd and Contreras group pitch. If the Sox are at least solid, then we can hope that the Indians and Tigers stumble a bit.

I actually thought Crisp had a pretty solid arm from what I heard. That was one of the things I heard about him and why he's heads and shoulders above Owens, because he has the arm to play CF. Not Vlad-like, but waaaaaay better than Owens. Correct me if I'm wrong...

rdivaldi
12-20-2007, 11:42 AM
Crisp has been around for awhile so you pretty much know what he is going to give you every year.

I'm not advocating a trade for Crisp by any means, but he is entering his baseball prime at 27. To think that anyone knows how this guy is going to produce in 2008 is very presumptuous.

Sargeant79
12-20-2007, 11:43 AM
Another thing to consider...

Acquiring Crisp means that he is likely your every day leadoff hitter. But in LF, you can ease Carlos Quentin in and have Owens start 2-3 days a week, and maybe relieve Crisp in CF once every couple weeks. He could also hit 9th on these days rather than having to depend on him in the leadoff position, giving you speed at the top and bottom of the order.

Heffalump
12-20-2007, 11:47 AM
I'm not advocating a trade for Crisp by any means, but he is entering his baseball prime at 27. To think that anyone knows how this guy is going to produce in 2008 is very presumptuous.


So based on his career to date, you are saying there is a much better chance that he is going to have a 'breakout year' then have a similar year to the last five full seasons just because he is 27?

I would take that bet ANY day.

He will have his usual solid season: around .270 BA, 20 SB, .320 OBP, solid defense. Nothing significantly more, nothing significantly less.

Hitmen77
12-20-2007, 11:52 AM
Here's my humble opinion....

The Sox have a good core of players to build around. We often forget how much talent there is on a team that has Konerko, Thome, Dye, Cabrera, A.J., Buerhle, Vazquez and Jenks. If we keep Crede, he's in that group too. I just don't know what's going to happen with him. Even so, Fields needs some work with the glove, but his bat seems pretty potent and he could be another key cog in the offense. Many of our hitters had awful years last year and are due to "regress" to the mean. Just their average production would be an improvement over last year.

Assuming they do rebound, the glaring problem with the Sox last year was a number of absolute sinkholes that can derail any team. If KW can just fill those holes with enough talent to make them at least "average," this team will improve tremendously. I'm not necessarily convinced that this improvement will be enough to get to the playoffs, but that has more to do with the current state of the division, what with the Indians and Tigers being so dominant right now. Still, a team with a good core and no glaring weaknesses at least has a chance.

I think KW has addressed one glaring weakness by upgrading to Cabrera at short. He will reach base more and strike out less than Uribe. It also gives the team a functional hitter in the two-spot. For all the criticism KW took for spending so much on Linebrink, he will be a huge upgrade over the trainwreck we saw last year when nobody seemed able to reliably get the ball to Bobby. Even if Linebrink isn't great, he's a significant upgrade over what happened last year. That can be a credit to Linebrink or a shot at last year's performance, however one wants to take it.

I don't know what we'll get from Quenton, but it can't be worse than what we got out of leftfield last year, which was pretty much nothing. Quenton has upside so we can hope for the best.

We don't need a world-beater in center. What we do need is a player who can add to the functionality of our offense and play capable defense. Crisp, if acquired, can do that. He's not blessed with a great arm, but can run balls down in center, hit for average and might make a good tandem with Cabrera in setting the table for the power in the middle. Crisp isn't a star player, but fits the bill of eliminating a glaring weakness.

In short, we will be a vastly improved team if KW can simply upgrade the voids to at least league-average performances or slightly better than league-average. This can also be done without "blowing the bank" on non-superstar players. If KW finishes filling these holes, the season may very well come down to how well two out of the Danks, Floyd and Contreras group pitch. If the Sox are at least solid, then we can hope that the Indians and Tigers stumble a bit.

Come on, make up your damn mind. Are you a koolaid drinking KW apologist or are you a pants pissing dark cloud? You can only be one or the other. All this "rational thinking" is just B.S.

Just kidding - great post.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 11:55 AM
Here's my humble opinion....

The Sox have a good core of players to build around. We often forget how much talent there is on a team that has Konerko, Thome, Dye, Cabrera, A.J., Buerhle, Vazquez and Jenks. If we keep Crede, he's in that group too. I just don't know what's going to happen with him. Even so, Fields needs some work with the glove, but his bat seems pretty potent and he could be another key cog in the offense. Many of our hitters had awful years last year and are due to "regress" to the mean. Just their average production would be an improvement over last year.

Assuming they do rebound, the glaring problem with the Sox last year was a number of absolute sinkholes that can derail any team. If KW can just fill those holes with enough talent to make them at least "average," this team will improve tremendously. I'm not necessarily convinced that this improvement will be enough to get to the playoffs, but that has more to do with the current state of the division, what with the Indians and Tigers being so dominant right now. Still, a team with a good core and no glaring weaknesses at least has a chance.

I think KW has addressed one glaring weakness by upgrading to Cabrera at short. He will reach base more and strike out less than Uribe. It also gives the team a functional hitter in the two-spot. For all the criticism KW took for spending so much on Linebrink, he will be a huge upgrade over the trainwreck we saw last year when nobody seemed able to reliably get the ball to Bobby. Even if Linebrink isn't great, he's a significant upgrade over what happened last year. That can be a credit to Linebrink or a shot at last year's performance, however one wants to take it.

I don't know what we'll get from Quenton, but it can't be worse than what we got out of leftfield last year, which was pretty much nothing. Quenton has upside so we can hope for the best.

We don't need a world-beater in center. What we do need is a player who can add to the functionality of our offense and play capable defense. Crisp, if acquired, can do that. He's not blessed with a great arm, but can run balls down in center, hit for average and might make a good tandem with Cabrera in setting the table for the power in the middle. Crisp isn't a star player, but fits the bill of eliminating a glaring weakness.

In short, we will be a vastly improved team if KW can simply upgrade the voids to at least league-average performances or slightly better than league-average. This can also be done without "blowing the bank" on non-superstar players. If KW finishes filling these holes, the season may very well come down to how well two out of the Danks, Floyd and Contreras group pitch. If the Sox are at least solid, then we can hope that the Indians and Tigers stumble a bit.

This is a good post.

voodoochile
12-20-2007, 12:01 PM
My understanding is that we want Crisp for his speed and leadoff abilities, right?

Well, over the last five years his SB totals have been 15, 20, 15, 22, 28. His OBP has been .302, .344, .345, .317, .330.

Jerry Owens stole 32 bases and had a .324 OBP last year in a bit over half a season (his first one in the majors at that).

Now I am by no means a Jerry Owens lover, but I really don’t understand how Coco is a huge upgrade over Owens. We know what he is going to give you, however Owens has only approx. 90 games in the big leagues so his upside could be great. Why not give him a shot, keep the prospects in an already depleted farm system, and use the cash that would go to pay Crisp for a veteran starter or a few veteran relievers….I know, I know, who would I suggest as there is not much out there? I can’t say, but I just don’t understand how Crisp is a big upgrade in CF.

Also, remember a few years ago when Owens had that big season in the minors? Everyone thought he might be the second coming of Ricky Henderson. Now, after an average rookie campaign in only 90 games, everybody wants to dump him? It always riles me a bit that the Sox compain about not having the talent come up from the minors, but they don't give the guys they do have an adequate chance to make good. For example: Owens, Sweeney, Anderson (please don't make this an Anderson thread-he sucked badly in the first half of 06, but was improving in the second half), even Jeff Abbott.

IMO, not everyone can be a Frank Thomas and murder MLB pitching from his first day in the majors. Most guys require quite a bit of seasoning.

No one wants to dump Owens. However, if the price is right in terms of prospects, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a backup plan in place in case Owens regresses instead of progresses in 2008. I mean maybe once the pitchers get the book on him, Owens will suck completely. No guarantees, so why not Coco? He's only going to cost $10M over the next 2 seasons, and at today's prices that's pretty cheap.

Heffalump
12-20-2007, 12:04 PM
No one wants to dump Owens. However, if the price is right in terms of prospects, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a backup plan in place in case Owens regresses instead of progresses in 2008. I mean maybe once the pitchers get the book on him, Owens will suck completely. No guarantees, so why not Coco? He's only going to cost $10M over the next 2 seasons, and at today's prices that's pretty cheap.


I agree that Coco would be an excellent safety net. I do not disagree that he is a solid player at a decent price. But if you trade for Coco, he is going to be in center for 155 games. Owens will be on the bench with an AB here or there, a spot start, or some pinch running duties. In my opinion, that is giving up on him, as it is difficult for a young guy to grow and improve if he can't play consistently.

voodoochile
12-20-2007, 12:08 PM
I agree that Coco would be an excellent safety net. I do not disagree that he is a solid player at a decent price. But if you trade for Coco, he is going to be in center for 155 games. Owens will be on the bench with an AB here or there, a spot start, or some pinch running duties. In my opinion, that is giving up on him, as it is difficult for a young guy to grow and improve if he can't play consistently.

Well, it actually adds a safety net to LF too. If Quentin sucks but Owens continues to show he's capable, then the Sox can move Owens to LF (probably a better position given his lack of arm strength) and Quentin can go back to the minors and work on improving his swing.

Having too much talent is never a bad thing...

oeo
12-20-2007, 12:09 PM
For those of you that want this to happen, ask yourself this: how much does Crisp actually improve the team? He doesn't do a lot for you. I think he's overrated defensively in center, and he definitely does not have a strong arm. He's never been a big base stealer (although he can fly), and he's never consistently gotten on base.

Coco Crisp sucks. No way we should be dealing three prospects for him.

spiffie
12-20-2007, 12:10 PM
No one wants to dump Owens. However, if the price is right in terms of prospects, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a backup plan in place in case Owens regresses instead of progresses in 2008. I mean maybe once the pitchers get the book on him, Owens will suck completely. No guarantees, so why not Coco? He's only going to cost $10M over the next 2 seasons, and at today's prices that's pretty cheap.
Are Anderson and Sweeney no longer in the plans the way you're envisioning things? Because if Owens is plan A, and Crisp is plan B, then I think that pretty much says both of them are done in the organization.

The Thomenator
12-20-2007, 12:11 PM
It seems that we are all dismissing the fact that (if Crede is traded and Fields plays 3rd) that both Quentin and Owens are young and unpredictable. With Coco, it gives us more of a sure thing in the OF. Not that I'm saying the sure thing is a future MVP, but when we have two question marks in the OF its good to know what you can get out of Crisp. This Bowden kid is the icing on the cake as well. If they don't give up any big time prospects and it's not a good deal, but a great one.

soxfan26
12-20-2007, 12:11 PM
No one wants to dump Owens. However, if the price is right in terms of prospects, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a backup plan in place in case Owens regresses instead of progresses in 2008. I mean maybe once the pitchers get the book on him, Owens will suck completely. No guarantees, so why not Coco? He's only going to cost $10M over the next 2 seasons, and at today's prices that's pretty cheap.

Thanks VC, I couldn't find his salary information out there anywhere (almost all the internet is blocked at work). After hearing that I'm a little surprised at the posters who object to acquiring him because of his salary. Seems like a bargain to me.

oeo
12-20-2007, 12:12 PM
Are Anderson and Sweeney no longer in the plans the way you're envisioning things? Because if Owens is plan A, and Crisp is plan B, then I think that pretty much says both of them are done in the organization.

I really don't think Anderson is in their plans, but Sweeney is a corner outfielder, so it's moot. He still needs at least another year in AAA, anyway.

Heffalump
12-20-2007, 12:15 PM
Well, it actually adds a safety net to LF too. If Quentin sucks but Owens continues to show he's capable, then the Sox can move Owens to LF (probably a better position given his lack of arm strength)


That's a very good point.

voodoochile
12-20-2007, 12:15 PM
Are Anderson and Sweeney no longer in the plans the way you're envisioning things? Because if Owens is plan A, and Crisp is plan B, then I think that pretty much says both of them are done in the organization.

I don't know. I expect Sweeney to get another year at AAA because he hasn't proven he can consistently hit on that level yet at least not good enough to be promoted. I assume Owens still has options left so he could always go back down too.

Anderson really needs to catch lightning in a bottle or he's done, IMO. He not only needs to have an amazing spring he needs to prove he's actually capable of playing on the big league level and that he's willing to listen to his coaches.

I'm not jumping up and down over the acquisition of Crisp, but I agree with infohawk's summary a few posts up. He gives the team a guaranteed average player to plug in if everything else goes to crap. If everyone or anyone breaks out and takes the job, Crisp can be traded for whatever they can get for him, but I like the idea of having a backup plan entering the season. It's one reason I hope the KW will also sign a retread pitcher.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 12:17 PM
For those of you that want this to happen, ask yourself this: how much does Crisp actually improve the team? He doesn't do a lot for you. I think he's overrated defensively in center, and he definitely does not have a strong arm. He's never been a big base stealer (although he can fly), and he's never consistently gotten on base.



He brings speed and runs bases well. He has bat control. He can move runners over and bunt. He's got a decent arm for center, and is a better defensive CF than Owens. I disagree with everything you've said, other than him getting on base. And I could live with that given his other tools.

And for the record, I would trade any three of out prospects outside of DLS and Gio for Micheal Bowden straight up. With Crisp, this really is a steal. Bowden has more upside than anyone in our system except DLS, and he might actually have more.

rdivaldi
12-20-2007, 12:22 PM
So based on his career to date, you are saying there is a much better chance that he is going to have a 'breakout year' then have a similar year to the last five full seasons just because he is 27?

I would take that bet ANY day.

He will have his usual solid season: around .270 BA, 20 SB, .320 OBP, solid defense. Nothing significantly more, nothing significantly less.

There is a much better chance that players will "break-out" as they approach their primes (late 20's, early 30's). I'm not saying that it will happen, I'm just saying that it's more likely.

This is baseball we're talking about, there are no givens.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 12:25 PM
rdivaldi what's your take on Bowden?

spiffie
12-20-2007, 12:26 PM
I don't know. I expect Sweeney to get another year at AAA because he hasn't proven he can consistently hit on that level yet at least not good enough to be promoted. I assume Owens still has options left so he could always go back down too.

Anderson really needs to catch lightning in a bottle or he's done, IMO. He not only needs to have an amazing spring he needs to prove he's actually capable of playing on the big league level and that he's willing to listen to his coaches.

I'm not jumping up and down over the acquisition of Crisp, but I agree with infohawk's summary a few posts up. He gives the team a guaranteed average player to plug in if everything else goes to crap. If everyone or anyone breaks out and takes the job, Crisp can be traded for whatever they can get for him, but I like the idea of having a backup plan entering the season. It's one reason I hope the KW will also sign a retread pitcher.
I guess I just don't see a need for another player we can try to trade if we don't need him. We already have Juan Uribe on the team eating up 4.5 million in salary that we're likely hoping to dump.

I would make the deal if Bowden is involved, but that's mostly just for the prospect. Otherwise I just don't feel a need for stopgap players. Crisp is a mediocre player. The gap between him, and whatever we could get from one of the three OF we have (and the Sox have played Sweeney in CF, so worst case scenario he could put some time in there) doesn't seem worth it otherwise. I'd rather save that cash and the prospects it would cost in the hopes of eventually landing someone who can make a significant impact in the event we don't get production from the three-headed monster of Owens/Sweeney/Anderson.

But like I said, if Bowden is involved, and it doesn't cost one of our top 3-4 prospects, I'll make the deal. The idea of a staff including Bowden, Gio, and DLS in a couple years makes me very excited about the future.

oeo
12-20-2007, 12:26 PM
He brings speed and runs bases well. He has bat control. He can move runners over and bunt. He's got a decent arm for center, and is a better defensive CF than Owens. I disagree with everything you've said, other than him getting on base. And I could live with that given his other tools.

I said how much does he improve the team (which what you listed above isn't much)? He's not worth it, IMO.

And you're fine with our leadoff hitter not getting on base? Great...

munchman33
12-20-2007, 12:28 PM
Since I am so tired of arguing with folks about stats not in front of them, I just killed some time and put together the stats for the first two seasons of both Owens and Crisp. After reading this, you tell me who has more upside, and who is worth the cost...

Crisp
Born: 11/01/79

Owens
Born: 02/16/1981

First 2 seasons in MLB (offense)…

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP OPS
Crisp (‘02): 32 127 16 33 9 2 1 9 11 19 4 1 .260 .314 .700
(‘03): 99 414 55 110 15 6 3 27 23 51 15 9 .266 .302 .655

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP OPS
Owens (’06): 12 9 4 3 1 0 0 0 0 2 1 0 .333 .333 .777
(’07): 93 93 44 95 9 0 1 17 27 63 32 8 . 267 .324 .636

First 2 seasons in MLB (CF defense)…

GP GS INN TC PO A E DP FPCT RF ZR
Crisp (‘02): 31 30 269 82 80 1 1 1 .988 2.71 .897
(‘03): 53 51 462 126 125 1 0 1 1.000 2.46 .865

GP GS INN TC PO A E DP FPCT RF ZR
Owens (’06): 4 2 12 5 5 0 0 0 1.000 3.75 1.000
(‘07): 84 81 709 211 208 1 2 1 .991 2.65 .896

This is absolutely meaningless. Crisp was WAY younger when he came up. Owens is old enough that he should have already broken out. He's in his peak years for a player with his tools putting up those numbers.

Heffalump
12-20-2007, 12:28 PM
He brings speed and runs bases well. He has bat control. He can move runners over and bunt. He's got a decent arm for center, and is a better defensive CF than Owens. I disagree with everything you've said, other than him getting on base. And I could live with that given his other tools.


My feelings on Crisp are somewhere in between yours and OEO's....You say he brings speed and runs the bases well. BUT he doesn't steal many bases, so this factor is overrated. You say he has bat control and can move runners over and bunt. Well, he did finish 7th and 1st in the league in Sac. bunts 2007 and 2005, so I agree with you here. That is an area that we had trouble with last year. You say he has a decent arm and a better glove than Owens. That is also true, to what degree though is debatable.

In total, Crisp would be a very good insurance policy, but he is not the stud leadoff man that we need.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 12:28 PM
I said how much does he improve the team (which what you listed above isn't much)? He's not worth it, IMO.

And you're fine with our leadoff hitter not getting on base? Great...

No. But I'm much happier with Crisp leading off than Owens.

Heffalump
12-20-2007, 12:30 PM
This is absolutely meaningless. Crisp was WAY younger when he came up. Owens is old enough that he should have already broken out. He's in his peak years for a player with his tools putting up those numbers.


Owens didn't start playing baseball until a few years ago. His sport of choice before that was football. Once again chronological age is not a factor here. Do you research before you jump down someones neck.

pmck003
12-20-2007, 12:32 PM
Owens stats don't mean much in that he hasn't had that many at bats

munchman33
12-20-2007, 12:32 PM
Owens didn't start playing baseball until a few years ago. His sport of choice before that was football. Once again chronological age is not a factor here. Do you research before you jump down someones neck.

I did know that. But he's not here because he has tremendous upside with the bat.

He's in his peak years for a speed guy. He's only going to get slower. His speed is key to his game, and he ain't getting faster.

Heffalump
12-20-2007, 12:32 PM
No. But I'm much happier with Crisp leading off than Owens.

Why?

If it is just because you like him, fine. But their really is little factual evidence to show that Crisp would be a significantly better leadoff man than Owens.

REmember, SIGNIFICANT is the key word here. If we are going to trade away MORE young prospects from our already bare farm system, we need to make sure that we are really upgrading, IMO

spiffie
12-20-2007, 12:33 PM
No. But I'm much happier with Crisp leading off than Owens.
I agree Crisp is likely to be a better player objectively than Owens. But is the impact he brings worth an extra 17 million or so over the next three years (assuming Owens makes about league minimum or close to it), and a couple of what you have to assume would be at least decent prospects, especially if it turns out that Bowden isn't in the deal and it's just Crisp or Crisp and a low-level throw-in? Is the extra few points of OPS and couple of balls gotten to per year going to give the Sox the extra push they need to make the playoffs? I don't personally see it, so unless the deal has something else to justfy it (like Bowden) then it becomes hard to say he's worth that much.

Heffalump
12-20-2007, 12:34 PM
I did know that. But he's not here because he has tremendous upside with the bat.

He's in his peak years for a speed guy. He's only going to get slower. His speed is key to his game, and he ain't getting faster.

Yes, so at 27 is he going to get significantly slower over the next 3 years?

No, he is not. As you said, he is in his peak years. WE are talking about 2008-09 not 2012. Crisp will be long gone by then.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 12:35 PM
Why?

If it is just because you like him, fine. But their really is little factual evidence to show that Crisp would be a significantly better leadoff man than Owens.

REmember, SIGNIFICANT is the key word here. If we are going to trade away MORE young prospects from our already bare farm system, we need to make sure that we are really upgrading, IMO

More pop and the severely underrated ability to control the bat. If Owens doesn't regress, they'll get on base at nearly the same clip. But the ability to control the bat and sacrifice himself makes Coco hands down twice the ballplayer Jerry Owens is at this point.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 12:36 PM
Yes, so at 27 is he going to get significantly slower over the next 3 years?

No, he is not. As you said, he is in his peak years. WE are talking about 2008-09 not 2012. Crisp will be long gone by then.

He needed to show the ability to hit already. His batting won't magically improve dramatically before the slow down occurs. At least it is extremely unlikely. He looks lost with the bat in his hands.

AzureJazzMan
12-20-2007, 12:37 PM
This is absolutely meaningless. Crisp was WAY younger when he came up. Owens is old enough that he should have already broken out. He's in his peak years for a player with his tools putting up those numbers.

Wrong sir, when you make your debut, you make your debut. Your first 2 years in the league are exactly that. Your first 2 years in the league.

You could be a 30 year old rookie, and you would still be rated on your first two years PLAYING in the bigs, and how you progress and make adjustments.

Sargeant79
12-20-2007, 12:38 PM
I agree Crisp is likely to be a better player objectively than Owens. But is the impact he brings worth an extra 17 million or so over the next three years (assuming Owens makes about league minimum or close to it),

IIRC, Crisp is only owed $5 million per year guaranteed for the next 2 years. The $8 million in 2010 is a club option.

spiffie
12-20-2007, 12:39 PM
IIRC, Crisp is only owed $5 million per year guaranteed for the next 2 years. The $8 million in 2010 is a club option.
He is owed 10.5 million over the next two years. But if all we're getting out of the deal is two years of Crisp to me that makes it even worse. What the hell do we need a CF rental for when we have two or three young OF prospects? At least if you assume we have him until the end of 2010 then you can say that we're stabilizing the position for a few years, at which time much of the roster will be turned or turning over.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 12:40 PM
Wrong sir, when you make your debut, you make your debut. Your first 2 years in the league are exactly that. Your first 2 years in the league.

You could be a 30 year old rookie, and you would still be rated on your first two years PLAYING in the bigs, and how you progress and make adjustments.

Not if your game is based on speed as your only tool. He doesn't have bat control, power, or play good defense. At 27, we can't expect him to improve that dramatically. By the time he's servicable, he'll likely have lost a step. Could be wrong, but I doubt it. Looks like Kenny does too.

Heffalump
12-20-2007, 12:42 PM
More pop and the severely underrated ability to control the bat. If Owens doesn't regress, they'll get on base at nearly the same clip. But the ability to control the bat and sacrifice himself makes Coco hands down twice the ballplayer Jerry Owens is at this point.


How do you quantify "more pop"? and "ability to control the bat"

These qualities make him "hands down twice the ballplayer"?....Come on!

You surely can't argue that Crisp will steal more bases and be more disruptive on the basepaths than Owens. I would argue that Owens is "hands down twice the ballplayer" than Crisp in this area.

And now you are admitting that Owens and Crisp will "get on base at the same clip"?

I'm sorry, your points are all over the map and have little actual substance behind them other than your obvious love for Crisp and disdain for Owens (which is fine, as everybody has their personal opinions.) Unfortunately this is not a very persuasive argument at all IMO.

Heffalump
12-20-2007, 12:43 PM
He needed to show the ability to hit already. His batting won't magically improve dramatically before the slow down occurs. At least it is extremely unlikely. He looks lost with the bat in his hands.

So now you can see the future after the guy has played 90 major league games? The Sox should sign you for their Scouting Dept.

AzureJazzMan
12-20-2007, 12:45 PM
Not if your game is based on speed as your only tool. He doesn't have bat control, power, or play good defense. At 27, we can't expect him to improve that dramatically. By the time he's servicable, he'll likely have lost a step. Could be wrong, but I doubt it. Looks like Kenny does too.

Ummm...you tell me...Did Owens not improve in all of those categories as the season went on, as he gained more playing time?

I know from my television it appeared that way. It's reflected in his stats as well....Hmmmm

voodoochile
12-20-2007, 12:45 PM
He is owed 10.5 million over the next two years. But if all we're getting out of the deal is two years of Crisp to me that makes it even worse. What the hell do we need a CF rental for when we have two or three young OF prospects? At least if you assume we have him until the end of 2010 then you can say that we're stabilizing the position for a few years, at which time much of the roster will be turned or turning over.

Right, but you've already stated that you prefer to rebuild at this point in time. For those of us including KW who prefer to wait and see how things go this season before making that decision, it's a different issue.

I'd agree with you if I felt it was time to rebuild, but I agree with infohawk and there is still a good core of talent on this team. I expect several players to bounce back to their career norms and after that, who knows?

munchman33
12-20-2007, 12:47 PM
How do you quantify "more pop"? and "ability to control the bat"

These qualities make him "hands down twice the ballplayer"?....Come on!




Significantly higher slugging percentage, lots more sacrifices and sac bunts. The numbers are there, if you would actually bother to look. In fact, if you bothered reading this thread, someone already pointed out how incredibly good at bunting Crisp is, and how he lead the league in sacrifce bunts for a long stretch.

But most people around here like to base things off of only watching sox games without researching or watching other teams, and simply yelling whenever anyone badmouths a sox players production versus proven players from other teams. So don't worry. You're not alone.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 12:49 PM
So now you can see the future after the guy has played 90 major league games? The Sox should sign you for their Scouting Dept.

When the season begins, HE'LL ALMOST BE 30!

Yeah, 28 isn't 30. But jeez. Once in a while, guys with power breakout at that age. Guys like Jerry Owens come off the bench and steal bases until they're too old to run.

Foulke You
12-20-2007, 12:50 PM
No one wants to dump Owens. However, if the price is right in terms of prospects, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a backup plan in place in case Owens regresses instead of progresses in 2008. I mean maybe once the pitchers get the book on him, Owens will suck completely. No guarantees, so why not Coco? He's only going to cost $10M over the next 2 seasons, and at today's prices that's pretty cheap.
Exactly. This is why it is a good move for Kenny to pick up Crisp. We are in desperate need for depth at CF and getting Crisp would provide that much needed depth. Providing Kenny doesn't do anything ridiculously foolish like trade Gio for Crisp, this is going to be a good move for the team.

Also, if Crisp can recapture his Indians type numbers playing in the AL Central again away from the Boston pressure cooker, we will be in really good shape:

2004 Crisp w/INDIANS .297 AVG./.344 OBP/15HR/71 RBI/.790 OPS
2005 Crisp w/INDIANS .300 AVG/.345 OBP/16HR/69 RBI/.810 OPS

AzureJazzMan
12-20-2007, 12:51 PM
Significantly higher slugging percentage, lots more sacrifices and sac bunts. The numbers are there, if you would actually bother to look. In fact, if you bothered reading this thread, someone already pointed out how incredibly good at bunting Crisp is, and how he lead the league in sacrifce bunts for a long stretch.

But most people around here like to base things off of only watching sox games without researching or watching other teams, and simply yelling whenever anyone badmouths a sox players production versus proven players from other teams. So don't worry. You're not alone.


If sacrifice bunts are your game....Then we should get Juan Pierre he led both leagues in sac bunts.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 12:52 PM
If sacrafice bunts are your game....Then we should get Juan Pierre he led both leagues in sac bunts.

I am not opposed to Juan Pierre. He's way better than Jerry Owens will be.

Heffalump
12-20-2007, 12:53 PM
Significantly higher slugging percentage, lots more sacrifices and sac bunts. The numbers are there, if you would actually bother to look. In fact, if you bothered reading this thread, someone already pointed out how incredibly good at bunting Crisp is, and how he lead the league in sacrifce bunts for a long stretch.

But most people around here like to base things off of only watching sox games without researching or watching other teams, and simply yelling whenever anyone badmouths a sox players production versus proven players from other teams. So don't worry. You're not alone.

Wow.

Slugging Percentage? Sac bunts? (I already admitted this piece in other posts, if YOU would only bother to read. Also I posted those stats! Finally, he led in Sac bunts ONE YEAR.)

If you are basing your argument that he is "Twice the player that Owens is" based on those categories, then I guess you win. It is cystal clear to me now that Crisp is a monster and I should have never doubted your statistical analysis/phychic/major league baseball research skills.

I have work to do. You win.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 12:56 PM
Wow.

Slugging Percentage? Sac bunts? (I already admitted this piece in other posts, if YOU would only bother to read. Also I posted those stats! Finally, he led in Sac bunts ONE YEAR.)

If you are basing your argument that he is "Twice the player that Owens is" based on those categories, then I guess you win. It is cystal clear to me now that Crisp is a monster and I should have never doubted your statistical analysis/phychic/major league baseball research skills.

I have work to do. You win.
:redface:

Sorry.

Being able to bunt and move runners over is sooo underrated. It's obvious from the numbers that Coco is good at it. And you don't need a crystal ball to see that Owens is terrible at it. Only eyes.

D. TODD
12-20-2007, 01:01 PM
Crisp would be fine, he would fill a need. I'm not comfortable with Owens as a everyday guy in center. Crisp is an upgrade on defense, Owens looked like a strictly slap hitter overmatched at times. Crisp has some pop (in U.S. Cellular maybe 15 plus homers), Owens/Anderson/Sweeney can be the 4th outfielder type guy. We have another rook in Quinten already looking like our left fielder. Coco is not a "big fish" but he's not a bum like so many of the statheads make him out to be.

I'm not thrilled with Coco, but if he doesn't cost too much in prospects, plus we get a decent arm from their farm system I have no problem with having him on the southside for 2 years at a little over 10 million.

jabrch
12-20-2007, 01:06 PM
I would be extremely disappointed if we give up any of our top 5 for Coco Crisp. Heck, I wouldn't even give up anyone from our top 10 for him. I'd much rather go with Owens than give up a top prospect or three for Crisp at his salary.

Billy Ashley
12-20-2007, 01:06 PM
Anyone who thinks that Jerry Owens is better than Coco Crisp is absolutely nuts. In over 1800 plate appearances in the minors he has all of ten home runs. He’s never been much of a prospect, always old for the leagues he’s played in. In the only season in which he posted an OPS better than the league average of the league he was playing in, he hit .331, his second highest minor league average was .292, suggesting that the .331 was an aberration. I don’t have access to his BABIP from his days in AA but suffice to say, I’d imagine it was unsuitably high. Further more, he’s almost as old as Coco Crisp. Sure Jerry Owens may have started playing baseball at an older age but that does not change the fact that Coco Crisp is better in almost every facet of the game.

Defense, Crisp has a significant edge.
Power- Owens has absolutely none, Crisp while limited, has a career slugging % of .409, something Owens never matched in the minor leagues.
Getting one base: Crisp has a career OBP of .329, and a minor league OBP of .371, the minor league numbers done at a significantly younger age than Owens.

To think Owens is better or a better bet to be better in the future is beyond foolish.

In addition Michael Bowden would be the 3rd best prospect in the W.S. system. While further behind, has a far higher ceiling than Gio. The WS system with Bowden would look like this:

DLS

Gio
Bowden



everything else

munchman33
12-20-2007, 01:17 PM
Anyone who thinks that Jerry Owens is better than Coco Crisp is absolutely nuts. In over 1800 plate appearances in the minors he has all of ten home runs. He’s never been much of a prospect, always old for the leagues he’s played in. In the only season in which he posted an OPS better than the league average of the league he was playing in, he hit .331, his second highest minor league average was .292, suggesting that the .331 was an aberration. I don’t have access to his BABIP from his days in AA but suffice to say, I’d imagine it was unsuitably high. Further more, he’s almost as old as Coco Crisp. Sure Jerry Owens may have started playing baseball at an older age but that does not change the fact that Coco Crisp is better in almost every facet of the game.

Defense, Crisp has a significant edge.
Power- Owens has absolutely none, Crisp while limited, has a career slugging % of .409, something Owens never matched in the minor leagues.
Getting one base: Crisp has a career OBP of .329, and a minor league OBP of .371, the minor league numbers done at a significantly younger age than Owens.

To think Owens is better or a better bet to be better in the future is beyond foolish.

In addition Michael Bowden would be the 3rd best prospect in the W.S. system. While further behind, has a far higher ceiling than Gio. The WS system with Bowden would look like this:

DLS

Gio
Bowden



everything else

I feel like I could have written this post.

Welcome aboard!

AzureJazzMan
12-20-2007, 01:20 PM
Anyone who thinks that Jerry Owens is better than Coco Crisp is absolutely nuts. In over 1800 plate appearances in the minors he has all of ten home runs. He’s never been much of a prospect, always old for the leagues he’s played in. In the only season in which he posted an OPS better than the league average of the league he was playing in, he hit .331, his second highest minor league average was .292, suggesting that the .331 was an aberration. I don’t have access to his BABIP from his days in AA but suffice to say, I’d imagine it was unsuitably high. Further more, he’s almost as old as Coco Crisp. Sure Jerry Owens may have started playing baseball at an older age but that does not change the fact that Coco Crisp is better in almost every facet of the game.

Defense, Crisp has a significant edge.
Power- Owens has absolutely none, Crisp while limited, has a career slugging % of .409, something Owens never matched in the minor leagues.
Getting one base: Crisp has a career OBP of .329, and a minor league OBP of .371, the minor league numbers done at a significantly younger age than Owens.

To think Owens is better or a better bet to be better in the future is beyond foolish.

In addition Michael Bowden would be the 3rd best prospect in the W.S. system. While further behind, has a far higher ceiling than Gio. The WS system with Bowden would look like this:

DLS

Gio
Bowden

everything else

Do you really want to go there with regard to minor league stats...Especially as they translate to MLB stats? Because we can duel stats all day long, and it will never end. The bottom line is, that Coco Crisp is not worth the price at 5 mil. I would rather that go to a "need something to prove" vetran pitcher.

Carolina Kenny
12-20-2007, 01:27 PM
For those of you that want this to happen, ask yourself this: how much does Crisp actually improve the team? He doesn't do a lot for you. I think he's overrated defensively in center, and he definitely does not have a strong arm. He's never been a big base stealer (although he can fly), and he's never consistently gotten on base.

Coco Crisp sucks. No way we should be dealing three prospects for him.

Just say no to Co Co. We should be aiming for a higher ceiling player.(in 2009)

voodoochile
12-20-2007, 01:29 PM
Do you really want to go there with regard to minor league stats...Especially as they translate to MLB stats? Because we can duel stats all day long, and it will never end. The bottom line is, that Coco Crisp is not worth the price at 5 mil. I would rather that go to a "need something to prove" vetran pitcher.

Why not do both? It's clear the Sox have money to spend because they were willing to outlay big bucks for all of the FA CF out there. Coco and veteran retread SP and then work on another reliever.

voodoochile
12-20-2007, 01:30 PM
Just say no to Co Co. We should be aiming for a higher ceiling player.(in 2009)

And what prevents them from doing that anyway? Coco would be primarily for 2008 anything beyond that is gravy...

munchman33
12-20-2007, 01:32 PM
The bottom line is, that Coco Crisp is not worth the price at 5 mil.

That might be the single biggest piece of bull**** I've ever read on this site.

He'd easily get a $50 million, 5 year contract on the open market, at the very least. Probably more money. I don't understand the contempt for a proven player, who's cheap, and does so much for you. Especially when the next best option isn't proven, and hasn't ever shown the ability, majors or minors, to do the one thing you knock Crisp for.

JermaineDye05
12-20-2007, 01:32 PM
Just say no to Co Co. We should be aiming for a higher ceiling player.(in 2009)

My guess is the deal is more for Bowden then it is for Coco as he appears to have a pretty high ceiling. We need pitching, that's the bottom line. Although unproven, our future in the rotation seems better with Buehrle/Vazquez/Danks and Bowden/Gio/DLS as possibilities to fill in the last 2 slots.

spiffie
12-20-2007, 01:34 PM
Right, but you've already stated that you prefer to rebuild at this point in time. For those of us including KW who prefer to wait and see how things go this season before making that decision, it's a different issue.

I'd agree with you if I felt it was time to rebuild, but I agree with infohawk and there is still a good core of talent on this team. I expect several players to bounce back to their career norms and after that, who knows?
I wonder though, even if you assume that this team is competitive this year, does the addition of Crisp really make you that much better? Do we think Owens is incapable of putting up the 260/325/375 line that Crisp has been putting up the last couple of years? The only reason I can see to make the deal is to upgrade the glove in CF. And if glove work is important enough that offense isn't much of a consideration, why not just put Anderson back out there?

I'm not averse to making moves that will help the team this year. I just don't see this as really being much of a help. And when you figure you're adding a bunch more salary, giving away more youth, and all for what is at best a marginal upgrade...it doesn't make sense to me.

It's Time
12-20-2007, 01:36 PM
Is this off season REALLY just a dream?:whiner:

spiffie
12-20-2007, 01:39 PM
That might be the single biggest piece of bull**** I've ever read on this site.

He'd easily get a $50 million, 5 year contract on the open market, at the very least. Probably more money. I don't understand the contempt for a proven player, who's cheap, and does so much for you. Especially when the next best option isn't proven, and hasn't ever shown the ability, majors or minors, to do the one thing you knock Crisp for.
Coco Crisp has proven the following. In 2500+ at-bats he gets on base at a clip a hair under .330. He had a little pop that has dissipated over the last few seasons to where if he hits 10 HR next year it would be a surprise. He showed that he could put up a .372 OBP in the minors, a whopping 10 points higher than the one Owens put up in the minors.

Crisp is living off of two good years he had in CLE, and the fact that he always looks good against us (319/355/502).

voodoochile
12-20-2007, 01:39 PM
I wonder though, even if you assume that this team is competitive this year, does the addition of Crisp really make you that much better? Do we think Owens is incapable of putting up the 260/325/375 line that Crisp has been putting up the last couple of years? The only reason I can see to make the deal is to upgrade the glove in CF. And if glove work is important enough that offense isn't much of a consideration, why not just put Anderson back out there?

I'm not averse to making moves that will help the team this year. I just don't see this as really being much of a help. And when you figure you're adding a bunch more salary, giving away more youth, and all for what is at best a marginal upgrade...it doesn't make sense to me.

No guarantees on Owens offense, he might regress, he might improve. No one knows how he will react to being a full time player when the league catches up to him. Coco is strictly a guarantee and yes, if you are playing for this year in any manner, that's a good thing to have. Crisp is better than Anderson offensively and better than Owens defensively and he doesn't really cost that much.

I have no idea what the Sox are offering in terms of young players, so I won't comment on whether Crisp is worth the players the Sox are offering for him. If Boston is viewing it more as a salary dump to free up space for other players then the Sox might not have to give up much, but this is obviously not a done deal and according to ma-gaga, who I assume knows his Minnesota sportswriters, this appears to be strictly a rumor, so it's all for ****s and giggles at this point in time.

rdivaldi
12-20-2007, 01:41 PM
rdivaldi what's your take on Bowden?

Unfortunately I've never seen him pitch in person, only scouting video and other assorted clips. He looks like a "potential" front-line pitcher, he's done a good job pitching against guys 2, 3, 4 years older than him at every stop. I haven't seen anything to suggest that he would be a #1 though. His arm his live but I'm not a fan of his motion, I worry about 3/4 guys blowing out their shoulders. Supposedly the Red Sox sent him to see Dr. Andrews about it and he was given a thumbs up.

He would be a nice addition to Birmingham in 2008, but at what cost I'm not sure.

AzureJazzMan
12-20-2007, 01:51 PM
Coco Crisp has proven the following. In 2500+ at-bats he gets on base at a clip a hair under .330. He had a little pop that has dissipated over the last few seasons to where if he hits 10 HR next year it would be a surprise. He showed that he could put up a .372 OBP in the minors, a whopping 10 points higher than the one Owens put up in the minors.

Crisp is living off of two good years he had in CLE, and the fact that he always looks good against us (319/355/502).

Thank you... :smile:

munchman33
12-20-2007, 01:57 PM
Coco Crisp has proven the following. In 2500+ at-bats he gets on base at a clip a hair under .330. He had a little pop that has dissipated over the last few seasons to where if he hits 10 HR next year it would be a surprise. He showed that he could put up a .372 OBP in the minors, a whopping 10 points higher than the one Owens put up in the minors.

Crisp is living off of two good years he had in CLE, and the fact that he always looks good against us (319/355/502).

You are neglecting his bunting/bat handling skills. You are also neglecting his slugging percentage. You have even neglected his good defense. Just because a guy isn't as good as he was doesn't mean he isn't still good.

balke
12-20-2007, 01:59 PM
That might be the single biggest piece of bull**** I've ever read on this site.

He'd easily get a $50 million, 5 year contract on the open market, at the very least. Probably more money. I don't understand the contempt for a proven player, who's cheap, and does so much for you. Especially when the next best option isn't proven, and hasn't ever shown the ability, majors or minors, to do the one thing you knock Crisp for.

What are you smoking? He's not worth 7 mil a year on the open market. The Sox just DFA'd Scott Podsednik who would put up the same #'s with more SB's than Crisp in a healthy season.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 02:01 PM
What are you smoking? He's not worth 7 mil a year on the open market. The Sox just DFA'd Scott Podsednik who would put up the same #'s with more SB's than Crisp in a healthy season.

Bingo.

Pods doesn't get money because he needs to be healthy to produce. He hasn't been healthy or producing.

Crisp has been battling injuries since he left Cleveland, and is still putting up decent numbers.

Not to mention, he's leaps and bounds better than Pods defensively. Pods was worse than Jerry Owens in center.

balke
12-20-2007, 02:13 PM
Bingo.

Pods doesn't get money because he needs to be healthy to produce. He hasn't been healthy or producing.

Crisp has been battling injuries since he left Cleveland, and is still putting up decent numbers.

Not to mention, he's leaps and bounds better than Pods defensively. Pods was worse than Jerry Owens in center.


Bingo nothing, Pods wouldn't get 5 mil for his healthy season. Crisp isn't exactly winning any iron man awards himself. He isn't as dangerous as a healthy Pods offensively. Both guys are worth about 5-6 mil healthy. They don't peak high enough. Kenny Lofton is like 60 years old and will put up better #'s than both next season for 6 Mil.

Crisp at 5 Mil is his worth. The problem is the Sox are giving up prospects to pay him his worth.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 02:28 PM
Bingo nothing, Pods wouldn't get 5 mil for his healthy season.

2005? Are you serious? With all those steals and that stellar OBP?

I can't tell you what I really think. I like posting here.

balke
12-20-2007, 02:34 PM
2005? Are you serious? With all those steals and that stellar OBP?

I can't tell you what I really think. I like posting here.

Pods is a left fielder who really was our weakest defensive link even if he were healthy going into last season. let's say a healthy Pods (Not a career year Pods) were entering free agency right now. He'd top out at 7 mil, most likely getting 5 or 6 a year for multi-years.


Putting aside Pods, and back to Crisp. Crisp wouldn't easily get 10 mil from anyone anywhere in any situation. He's a 5-7 million guy who would get 8 from a dumb team like the Sox who would pay him cause he's done well against the Sox in the past. He's worth 5-7. He's not worth 5 plus decent prospects when the Sox have a young player who's a lot like him already.

AzureJazzMan
12-20-2007, 02:34 PM
Bingo nothing, Pods wouldn't get 5 mil for his healthy season. Crisp isn't exactly winning any iron man awards himself. He isn't as dangerous as a healthy Pods offensively. Both guys are worth about 5-6 mil healthy. They don't peak high enough. Kenny Lofton is like 60 years old and will put up better #'s than both next season for 6 Mil.

Crisp at 5 Mil is his worth. The problem is the Sox are giving up prospects to pay him his worth.


You bring up a great point...If we are about "winning now" as per KW, then why not re-up with Lofton for one year at 4 or 5 mil. (or less if possible) and keep our prospects. Lofton is a proven producer (he's proven more than Coco), and will be a write off after '08. Hell, he could be trade bait at the deadline (if the season doesn't go well) and net us a prospect to add to the farm.

balke
12-20-2007, 02:38 PM
You bring up a great point...If we are about "winning now" as per KW, then why not re-up with Lofton for one year at 4 or 5 mil. (or less if possible) and keep our prospects. Lofton is a proven producer (he's proven more than Coco), and will be a write off after '08.

That's a good question. Leadoff hitter, check. Vet to mentor a young Owens, check. Owens can replace him if age is an issue and he gets hurt, and no prospects are lost. You gain .050 in OBP from Crisp, and still have that ex-indian thing going on.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 02:38 PM
Pods is a left fielder who really was our weakest defensive link even if he were healthy last season. let's say a healthy Pods (Not a career year Pods) were entering free agency right now. He'd top out at 7 mil, most likely getting 5 or 6 a year for multi-years.

Putting aside Pods, and back to Crisp. Crisp wouldn't easily get 10 mil from anyone anywhere in any situation. He's a 5-6 million guy who would get 8 from a dumb team like the Sox who would pay him cause he's done well against the Sox in the past. He's worth 5-6. He's not worth 5-6 plus decent prospects.

Pods healthy was an all-star. I seriously doubt if he continued to produce like that without getting hurt he'd only be making $7 million.

If you don't think Crisp should get that kind of money, you need to look at the deal Juan Pierre signed. And then realize that even that deal is dated, and undermarket now.

5-6 decent prospects? Where the hell are you getting that? We'd be sending three pieces of crap to the Red Sox for Crisp and a prospect who immediately competes for best in our system. We're not sending Gio or DLS. So even if the deal was for 5-6 decent prospects, we don't even have that, other than those two. They are pretty much our only "decent prospects."

munchman33
12-20-2007, 02:40 PM
You bring up a great point...If we are about "winning now" as per KW, then why not re-up with Lofton for one year at 4 or 5 mil. (or less if possible) and keep our prospects. Lofton is a proven producer (he's proven more than Coco), and will be a write off after '08. Hell, he could be trade bait at the deadline (if the season doesn't go well) and net us a prospect to add to the farm.

He's a platoon player at this point in his career, as he can't hit lefties at all. And he's not really adequate in CF anymore.

Good bench player though.

Tragg
12-20-2007, 02:42 PM
That might be the single biggest piece of bull**** I've ever read on this site.

He'd easily get a $50 million, 5 year contract on the open market, at the very least. Probably more money. I don't understand the contempt for a proven player, who's cheap, and does so much for you. Especially when the next best option isn't proven, and hasn't ever shown the ability, majors or minors, to do the one thing you knock Crisp for.$50 million?
Not a chance. He's a proven mediocrity. OBPs of .317 and .330 are below par. And he deosn't have much power to offset it.

And we're going to trade top young talent for 2 years of a .317 obp player. Nice move.
And if the shoe were on the other foot, the sounds of "no value" would be heard nice and loud. I can guarantee that will happen with Williams' next move which would be to give Anderson away.

balke
12-20-2007, 02:42 PM
Pods healthy was an all-star. I seriously doubt if he continued to produce like that without getting hurt he'd only be making $7 million.

If you don't think Crisp should get that kind of money, you need to look at the deal Juan Pierre signed. And then realize that even that deal is dated, and undermarket now.

5-6 decent prospects? Where the hell are you getting that? We'd be sending three pieces of crap to the Red Sox for Crisp and a prospect who immediately competes for best in our system. We're not sending Gio or DLS. So even if the deal was for 5-6 decent prospects, we don't even have that, other than those two. They are pretty much our only "decent prospects."


I meant 5 million and decent prospect(s) 1-3. Juan Pierre will never again get a deal like he got. And Juan Pierre got that money because he's stolen 45+ bases a season every season. Crisp hasn't broken 30 in a season.

spiffie
12-20-2007, 02:43 PM
You are neglecting his bunting/bat handling skills. You are also neglecting his slugging percentage. You have even neglected his good defense. Just because a guy isn't as good as he was doesn't mean he isn't still good.
This would be a more impressive argument had Crisp had even 10 bunt hit attempts in 2007. In his entire career he is 37/82 in bunt hit attempts. So over his career he's put up an average of about 6 bunts for hit each season.

I agree his defense is better than Owens will give you. I don't see it as a significant enough addition though to justfy the expense in money and prospects.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 02:44 PM
I meant 5 million and decent prospect(s) 1-3. Juan Pierre will never again get a deal like he got. And Juan Pierre got that money because he's stolen 45+ bases a season every season. Crisp hasn't broken 30 in a season.

Have you seen the deals being bandied about?

Mediocrity starts at $10 million per nowadays. And Crisp is well above mediocre. He's league average.

chisox77
12-20-2007, 02:44 PM
I wonder if any cereal producers would be interested in buying ad space at the Cell if Coco Crisp was acquired by the White Sox.

:cool:

munchman33
12-20-2007, 02:45 PM
This would be a more impressive argument had Crisp had even 10 bunt hit attempts in 2007. In his entire career he is 37/82 in bunt hit attempts. So over his career he's put up an average of about 6 bunts for hit each season.

I agree his defense is better than Owens will give you. I don't see it as a significant enough addition though to justfy the expense in money and prospects.

Like I said before, I'd do any three of our prospects outside of Gio and DLS for Bowden, straight up. I'd even let the Red Sox chose.

Now you're telling me we're getting Crisp too? Kenny must be salivating.

balke
12-20-2007, 02:45 PM
Pods healthy was an all-star. I seriously doubt if he continued to produce like that without getting hurt he'd only be making $7 million.



I guess we'll never know on that. He's never been healthy enough to prove what his "median" should be. Just big peaks and low dips. His peaks are way higher than Crisp's though, which further proves the point that Crisp wouldn't make 10 mil.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 02:47 PM
Unfortunately I've never seen him pitch in person, only scouting video and other assorted clips. He looks like a "potential" front-line pitcher, he's done a good job pitching against guys 2, 3, 4 years older than him at every stop. I haven't seen anything to suggest that he would be a #1 though. His arm his live but I'm not a fan of his motion, I worry about 3/4 guys blowing out their shoulders. Supposedly the Red Sox sent him to see Dr. Andrews about it and he was given a thumbs up.

He would be a nice addition to Birmingham in 2008, but at what cost I'm not sure.

Where would you rate him in regards to the other pitching talent in our system? I have to admit, I've never actually seen him pitch, only read reports. The 3/4 thing worries me a little too.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 02:50 PM
I guess we'll never know on that. He's never been healthy enough to prove what his "median" should be. Just big peaks and low dips. His peaks are way higher than Crisp's though, which further proves the point that Crisp wouldn't make 10 mil.

Look at the deal Jose Guillen got. Fresh off a report of steroid use. So what if it's Kansas City. There's always that team. Someone's always willing to hit that threshold. It's simply the value for that kind of talent.

League average outfielders start around $10 million nowadays. Crisp is better than league average, and would easily get at least that.

ma-gaga
12-20-2007, 02:52 PM
but this is obviously not a done deal and according to ma-gaga, who I assume knows his Minnesota sportswriters, this appears to be strictly a rumor

According to Walters, and Fenway's WEEI, this deal was done three weeks ago (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1733220&postcount=13) and they were simply working out the details of the contract extension. I'm guessing they share sources with each other. "I totally confirmed that scoop", "no way dude, I confirmed that scoop". That said, according to numerous media sources and general baseball analysis sites, the "Santana deal" is pretty much defined. The Twins want TWO top prospects for Santana, and the Yankees and Red Sox only want to give up ONE. The top prospects in question are:

Ellsbury, Bucholz, and Lester
or
Joba, Hughes and Kennedy.

My favorite thing is to lurk around NYY Fans, and SOSH and see just how badly the Yanks/RedSox fans are over-valuing their prospects. Some of them believe that Santana isn't "worth" ONE of their top prospects.

There is a chance that a darkhorse team could sneak in, Seattle or Los Angeles Dodgers and make an offer that the Twins can't refuse (Adam Jones or Matt Kemp plus pitching) and steal Johan away from the east coasters. But I wouldn't bet against the Yankees caving.

If I were guessing who Johan pitched opening day for this year. I'd probably handicap the race as:

30% Yanks
25% Red Sox
20% Twins
10% Mariners
8% LA Dodgers
5% Mets
2% LA Angels

Right now nobody is blinking, and that favors the Red Sox . :cool:

spiffie
12-20-2007, 02:52 PM
Look at the deal Jose Guillen got. Fresh off a report of steroid use. So what if it's Kansas City. There's always that team. Someone's always willing to hit that threshold. It's simply the value for that kind of talent.

League average outfielders start around $10 million nowadays. Crisp is better than league average, and would easily get at least that.
So we're now classifying Jermaine Dye as average?

balke
12-20-2007, 02:53 PM
Have you seen the deals being bandied about?

Mediocrity starts at $10 million per nowadays. And Crisp is well above mediocre. He's league average.

No he's not at all. Jermaine Dye is a $10 million dollar man, and he would've been AL MVP 2 seasons ago with the Sox making the playoffs. Johnny Damon Speed with below avg. BA and below Avg. Power. There's nothing special about him other than he can field his position.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 02:55 PM
No he's not at all. Jermaine Dye is a $10 million dollar man, and he would've been AL MVP 2 seasons ago with the Sox making the playoffs. Johnny Damon Speed with below avg. BA and below Avg. Power. There's nothing special about him other than he can field his position.

He didn't hit the open market. He'd have gotten a lot more, probably 3/36 or bigger. And that's coming off a bad year and injury trouble.

Heffalump
12-20-2007, 02:57 PM
Have you seen the deals being bandied about?

Mediocrity starts at $10 million per nowadays. And Crisp is well above mediocre. He's league average.


I'm back.

So let me understand this, as I am easily confused. You say that Crisp is well above mediocre, but he is also league average?.........Uh, I thought that medicore = average.

At least he has good "bat handling skills".

Heffalump
12-20-2007, 02:58 PM
Crisp is better than league average, and would easily get at least that.


Now he is "better than league average"??

Please make up your mind.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 03:00 PM
Now he is "better than league average"??

Please make up your mind.

People in this society use mediocre in a negative connotation, and consider it worse than average.

I know, not the dictionary definition. But working at a college, I can tell you that most people think mediocre is bad.

edit: for the record I want it known that Crisp has league average numbers, but is better than league average when you consider his skills (bunting and defense).

santo=dorf
12-20-2007, 03:02 PM
Of course the trade hasn't gone through. Otis hasn't posted yet. :rolleyes:

Heffalump
12-20-2007, 03:04 PM
People in this society use mediocre in a negative connotation, and consider it worse than average.

I know, not the dictionary definition. But working at a college, I can tell you that most people think mediocre is bad.


I am glad that I can rely on you to correct my view of society and the English language.

I guess I should have been a party planner.

balke
12-20-2007, 03:05 PM
He didn't hit the open market. He'd have gotten a lot more, probably 3/36 or bigger. And that's coming off a bad year and injury trouble.

Orlando Cabrera is a Gold Glove SS making 9 million, and they are going to give Coco "I'm not as good as Kenny Lofton" Crisp 10 mil? I don't know if I can name 5 CFers who would be worse than Crisp all around offensively starting in the MLB.

DumpJerry
12-20-2007, 03:05 PM
Of course the trade hasn't gone through. Otis hasn't posted yet. :rolleyes:
Word.


It ain't a Red Sox deal until Otis hath spoken.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 03:07 PM
I am glad that I can rely on you to correct my view of society and the English language.

I guess I should have been a party planner.

There isn't anything we can't do. :cool:

Seriously, off topic, but people misuse words all the time here. And when they can't find a word, they make it up from other words they know. It's getting out of hand. I live with an English teacher, and I know how he feels about it.

Okay I'm done.

SBSoxFan
12-20-2007, 03:08 PM
You are neglecting his bunting/bat handling skills. You are also neglecting his slugging percentage. You have even neglected his good defense. Just because a guy isn't as good as he was doesn't mean he isn't still good.

Isn't Erstad a free agent?

munchman33
12-20-2007, 03:08 PM
Orlando Cabrera is a Gold Glove SS making 9 million, and they are going to give Coco "I'm not as good as Kenny Lofton" Crisp 10 mil? I don't know if I can name 5 CFers who would be worse than Crisp all around offensively starting in the MLB.

He signed that contract four years ago. Seriously, c'mon. The market today is so different. It's time to let it go. Bad players make $5 in todays market. Coco is far from a bad player.

dickallen15
12-20-2007, 03:09 PM
No he's not at all. Jermaine Dye is a $10 million dollar man, and he would've been AL MVP 2 seasons ago with the Sox making the playoffs. Johnny Damon Speed with below avg. BA and below Avg. Power. There's nothing special about him other than he can field his position.
But using the logic being used not to acquire Crisp, a couple of so so injury plaqued seasons, would have also meant the Sox should never have even pursued Dye.

Tragg
12-20-2007, 03:09 PM
People in this society use mediocre in a negative connotation, and consider it worse than average.

I know, not the dictionary definition. But working at a college, I can tell you that most people think mediocre is bad.

edit: for the record I want it known that Crisp has league average numbers, but is better than league average when you consider his skills (bunting and defense).
I'll concede Crisp is an average ballplayer (and mediocre is sort of a slur on the average, I agree).
So the questions remain:
1)Why do the Sox want to load up with average ballplayers??
2)How is it in the best interest of this baseball team to give up high ceiling young talent for league average ballplayers?
3)Talent needs time to be developed; how will the Sox EVER get any talent developed if they push it aside for the average. Ozzie did it last year with the woeful Erstad (he was well below average though); he did it in pitching with Bukvich and Meyers. What is the benefit of that approach?

balke
12-20-2007, 03:10 PM
nvrmnd

Fenway
12-20-2007, 03:10 PM
Word.


It ain't a Red Sox deal until Otis hath spoken.

Otis was arrested for drunk driving after the World Series win
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/b/b4/Andy_Griffith_115.jpg

Heffalump
12-20-2007, 03:10 PM
There isn't anything we can't do. :cool:

Seriously, off topic, but people misuse words all the time here. And when they can't find a word, they make it up from other words they know. It's getting out of hand. I live with an English teacher, and I know how he feels about it.

Okay I'm done.


I agree. You just misused 'mediocre'

I live with a pharmacist, doesn't mean I can competently discuss medications.

balke
12-20-2007, 03:12 PM
But using the logic being used not to acquire Crisp, a couple of so so injury plaqued seasons, would have also meant the Sox should never have even pursued Dye.

Jermaine Dye showed 30/30 power several seasons in his past when the Sox had signed him. Nice try though.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 03:14 PM
I'll concede Crisp is an average ballplayer (and mediocre is sort of a slur on the average, I agree).
So the questions remain:
1)Why do the Sox want to load up with average ballplayers??
2)How is it in the best interest of this baseball team to give up high ceiling young talent for league average ballplayers?
3)Talent needs time to be developed; how will the Sox EVER get any talent developed if they push it aside for the average. Ozzie did it last year with the woeful Erstad (he was well below average though); he did it in pitching with Bukvich and Meyers. What is the benefit of that approach?

1. Because that's all that's left, and it looks like starting over isn't in the plans. So that's our best bet.
2. Who, specifically, are you talking about? Because as far as I know, the only guys like that in our system are DLS and Gio, and neither would be going. We are getting back a high ceiling guy in this deal in Bowden.
3. Who are you talking about? Owens? Owens is a slap hitter without bat control. Where conceivably does he project? I mean, even the BA guys at least had an arguement. Owens upside is simply not all that great. If he lives up to potential, he's a Crisp like player. And that's a big if.

voodoochile
12-20-2007, 03:16 PM
I love the justification going on in this thread...

Those who don't want Coco on the team are quantifying the prospects as top end.

Those who do are quantifying them as B tier or even lower.

Neither side actually knows what prospects other than Shelby are being discussed (and even Shelby is a guess at this point since the whole thing's a rumor).

Just curious, given what Ma-gaga has said about two top prospects, would people trade DLS and Gio for Santana?

munchman33
12-20-2007, 03:16 PM
I agree. You just misused 'mediocre'

I live with a pharmacist, doesn't mean I can competently discuss medications.

Haha....no I guess it doesn't.

I have a degree in sociology though. Studying people and their behavior is what I enjoy.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 03:17 PM
Just curious, given what Ma-gaga has said about two top prospects, would people trade DLS and Gio for Santana?

In a heartbeat. They can have the rest of Birmingham too.

balke
12-20-2007, 03:17 PM
I love the justification going on in this thread...

Those who don't want Coco on the team are quantifying the prospects as top end.

Those who do are quantifying them as B tier or even lower.

Neither side actually knows what prospects other than Shelby are being discussed (and even Shelby is a guess at this point since the whole thing's a rumor).

Just curious, given what Ma-gaga has said about two top prospects, would people trade DLS and Gio for Santana?


Rotoworld is saying the Red Sox would be acquiring relief pitching since the Sox got Linebrink.

Unless the Sox wanna give up on Aardsma or Sisco, I don't see how they have room to be dealing relief pitchers.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The only positive I could see with the Trade is keeping Crisp out of Minnesota. With Atlanta wanting Cameron, that would leave Minnesota with no real options for CF. That could benefit the Sox I guess.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 03:20 PM
Rotoworld is saying the Red Sox would be acquiring relief pitching since the Sox got Linebrink.

Unless the Sox wanna give up on Aardsma or Sisco, I don't see how they have room to be dealing relief pitchers.

Get rid of Aardsma and Sisco for a CF? Sign me up. I don't care if it's So Taguchi.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 03:22 PM
The only positive I could see with the Trade is keeping Crisp out of Minnesota. With Atlanta wanting Cameron, that would leave Minnesota with no real options for CF. That could benefit the Sox I guess.

That's a big point too.

And please don't forget Bowden. He's the real prize in this deal.

spiffie
12-20-2007, 03:23 PM
1. Because that's all that's left, and it looks like starting over isn't in the plans. So that's our best bet.
2. Who, specifically, are you talking about? Because as far as I know, the only guys like that in our system are DLS and Gio, and neither would be going. We are getting back a high ceiling guy in this deal in Bowden.
3. Who are you talking about? Owens? Owens is a slap hitter without bat control. Where conceivably does he project? I mean, even the BA guys at least had an arguement. Owens upside is simply not all that great. If he lives up to potential, he's a Crisp like player. And that's a big if.
I guess I just don't see what he has to live up to. If you take what Owens did last year averaged over 162 games he's looking at 267/324/312 with 55 SB (81% success rate). Crisp breaks out to 268/330/382 with 31 SB (84% success rate). If you factor in the stolen bases Owens would account for and Crisp for 251 bases and Owens for 244 total bases.

As for the bat handling, where is the evidence of this? Crisp had 9 sacrifice hits last year. He average 6 bunt hits per year. Not sure exactly where this amazing bat handling is manifesting itself.

That said, as I've said elsewhere in the thread, if Bowden is involved, I'm much more inclined to the deal.

Tragg
12-20-2007, 03:25 PM
1. Because that's all that's left, and it looks like starting over isn't in the plans. So that's our best bet.
2. Who, specifically, are you talking about? Because as far as I know, the only guys like that in our system are DLS and Gio, and neither would be going. We are getting back a high ceiling guy in this deal in Bowden.
3. Who are you talking about? Owens? Owens is a slap hitter without bat control. Where conceivably does he project? I mean, even the BA guys at least had an arguement. Owens upside is simply not all that great. If he lives up to potential, he's a Crisp like player. And that's a big if. WE don't know the details - I assume that it's 3 good prospects.
Williams made a couple of small moves this year and got rid of a lot of real deadweight; we're going to be better next year. He improved the pen and has young pitchers who could further enhanced it. Quentin is in interesting player who could really, really help a lot if allowed to use his patience.
Adding more average ballplayers won't get us to the playoffs. Our system is talent-light; using what little talent we have on average ballplayers will make contention that much more difficult.
I'd much rather see us deal veterans for near ready prospects or for young players. Or use a prospect for a good player. - above average. Use Uribe as a throw in in a trade - and if he has no value, there is NO way you should have signed him for $4.5 million. Or trade one of the several middle relievers we acquired last year.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 03:34 PM
WE don't know the details - I assume that it's 3 good prospects.
Williams made a couple of small moves this year and got rid of a lot of real deadweight; we're going to be better next year. He improved the pen and has young pitchers who could further enhanced it. Quentin is in interesting player who could really, really help a lot if allowed to use his patience.
Adding more average ballplayers won't get us to the playoffs. Our system is talent-light; using what little talent we have on average ballplayers will make contention that much more difficult.
I'd much rather see us deal veterans for near ready prospects or for young players. Or use a prospect for a good player. - above average. Use Uribe as a throw in in a trade - and if he has no value, there is NO way you should have signed him for $4.5 million. Or trade one of the several middle relievers we acquired last year.

Well, this is personal opinion, but I don't really care much for any of our prospects, outside of DLS or Gio. Maybe Poreda, if he can learn to throw the change. So any three other guys for Bowden is an absolute steal in my eyes. I really don't care who, because, as you've said, our system is talent light. Why not trade three guys with small chances to be decent for one guy with a decent chance to be spectacular? And the only catch is we have to pay a decent/good player $10 million at a position we have a gaping hole?

Why aren't more people jumping for joy?

Heffalump
12-20-2007, 03:37 PM
Well, this is personal opinion, but I don't really care much for any of our prospects, outside of DLS or Gio. Maybe Poreda, if he can learn to throw the change. So any three other guys for Bowden is an absolute steal in my eyes. I really don't care who, because, as you've said, our system is talent light. Why not trade three guys with small chances to be decent for one guy with a decent chance to be spectacular? And the only catch is we have to pay a decent/good player $10 million at a position we have a gaping hole?

Why aren't more people jumping for joy?

I don't know anything about this Bowden guy. If he really does have ace potential, I say great, maybe it is a good deal for us. But why would Theo give him up for a bunch of supposed junk from our Farm system?

SoxNation05
12-20-2007, 03:39 PM
I like this deal. If we had the money the money to sign Hunter we can afford Crisp. But the fact is we are not trading DLS or Gio in this trade. Not to mention the potential Bowden has and besides DLS and Gio our minor league sucks. I just like this trade because we adress a need for 2008 and for the future.

Fenway
12-20-2007, 03:42 PM
I don't know anything about this Bowden guy. If he really does have ace potential, I say great, maybe it is a good deal for us. But why would Theo give him up for a bunch of supposed junk from our Farm system?

Maybe John Shelby is that good?????

gogosox16
12-20-2007, 03:46 PM
I don't know anything about this Bowden guy. If he really does have ace potential, I say great, maybe it is a good deal for us. But why would Theo give him up for a bunch of supposed junk from our Farm system?
Maybe he is willing to give up Bowden cuase he is still a few years away and they already have alot of top pitching prospects in the waiting battling for spots...I watched Bowden when he went to Waubonsie Valley High School and I truly believe he could be a very solid pitcher in the majors with the possibility of being an ace. He's only 21 and has a major upside. If the Sox got Crisp and Bowden for 3 prospects even if DLS is in it, I believe the Our Sox win the trade. But time will tell

munchman33
12-20-2007, 03:48 PM
I don't know anything about this Bowden guy. If he really does have ace potential, I say great, maybe it is a good deal for us. But why would Theo give him up for a bunch of supposed junk from our Farm system?

Salary dump. Ellsbury is their CF now. If they don't get Santana, they have no need for Coco.

Bowden was their #1 pick in 2005. The throws low to mid 90's with good control. He throws four pitches, all of which project to the major league level. He just needs to work on pitch selection, as I've read he uses his fastball too much.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 03:49 PM
Maybe John Shelby is that good?????

He's a long way away to make a statement like that. I guess yes, his ceiling is high. But he's a real big if, IMO. Perhaps Theo disagrees with me. He does get paid to do this.

gogosox16
12-20-2007, 03:50 PM
Salary dump. Ellsbury is their CF now. If they don't get Santana, they have no need for Coco.

Bowden was their #1 pick in 2005. The throws low to mid 90's with good control. He throws four pitches, all of which project to the major league level. He just needs to work on pitch selection, as I've read he uses his fastball too much.
No Bowden, was one of their 3 first round picks that year. 3rd first rounder.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 03:52 PM
No Bowden, was one of their 3 first round picks that year. 3rd first rounder.

Haha...okay, fair enough. Splitting hairs, aren't we?

I remember they drafted him in the first round. He's a local boy. I was hoping we would have drafted him.

gogosox16
12-20-2007, 03:55 PM
Haha...okay, fair enough. Splitting hairs, aren't we?

I remember they drafted him in the first round. He's a local boy. I was hoping we would have drafted him.
Ya that would of been cool to have a local boy get drafted by a hometown team, then come through their system and do well for the team in the majors

SoxNation05
12-20-2007, 03:55 PM
Is anyone sure of who the Sox would be trading for Crisp and Bowden?

gogosox16
12-20-2007, 03:57 PM
Is anyone sure of who the Sox would be trading for Crisp and Bowden?
no one's real sure but you would have to imagine one of our top pitching prospects and possibly Shelby and someone else, I'm thinking DLS, Shelby, and low prospect for Crisp, and Bowden

spawn
12-20-2007, 03:58 PM
Is anyone sure of who the Sox would be trading for Crisp and Bowden?
Mark Buehrle, Jermaine Dye,and Joe Crede.

gogosox16
12-20-2007, 03:59 PM
Mark Buehrle, Jermaine Dye,and Joe Crede.
and cash

SoxNation05
12-20-2007, 04:00 PM
no one's real sure but you would have to imagine one of our top pitching prospects and possibly Shelby and someone else, I'm thinking DLS, Shelby, and low prospect for Crisp, and Bowden
I would rather trade Gio than DLS.

gogosox16
12-20-2007, 04:02 PM
I would rather trade Gio than DLS.
I really dont understand why so many people are so high on him, He's not even pass AA yet and everyone's high on him, just wondering what does everyone like about him so much?

munchman33
12-20-2007, 04:02 PM
no one's real sure but you would have to imagine one of our top pitching prospects and possibly Shelby and someone else, I'm thinking DLS, Shelby, and low prospect for Crisp, and Bowden

Usually when a name leaks, it's because that person is the one the package is built around.

I highly doubt Gio or DLS are in this deal, or their name would have come up immediately. Not Shelby's.

My best guess is Anderson or Sweeney, along with Broadway and Shelby.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 04:03 PM
I really dont understand why so many people are so high on him, He's not even pass AA yet and everyone's high on him, just wondering what does everyone like about him so much?

Watch him pitch and you'll understand. Definately a "stuff" guy.

gogosox16
12-20-2007, 04:05 PM
Watch him pitch and you'll understand. Definately a "stuff" guy.
anyone got a video of him pitching or anything

SoxNation05
12-20-2007, 04:07 PM
Usually when a name leaks, it's because that person is the one the package is built around.

I highly doubt Gio or DLS are in this deal, or their name would have come up immediately. Not Shelby's.

My best guess is Anderson or Sweeney, along with Broadway and Shelby.
If that is true not one person should be complaining if it falls through. I would do that deal in a flash.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 04:08 PM
anyone got a video of him pitching or anything

The "other" sox forum had some at one point, if you're interested.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 04:09 PM
If that is true not one person should be complaining if it falls through. I would do that deal in a flash.

Yeah. I'd probably even do it with Gio, though not everyone would agree with that.

You'd have to give me a lot to touch DLS.

SoxNation05
12-20-2007, 04:10 PM
Obviously Santana is a bigger priority to the Red Sox than the crap the Sox are giving them but why are the Twins so high on Crisp? I know they have a hole in center but when you trading the best pitcher in baseball CoCo Crisp should not be a top priority.

spiffie
12-20-2007, 04:13 PM
Yeah. I'd probably even do it with Gio, though not everyone would agree with that.

You'd have to give me a lot to touch DLS.
They can have anyone in our system except for DLS or Gio if Bowden is involved. I guess I just have trouble imagining the Red Sox are that desperate to shed Crisp. Makes me wonder what they know about Bowden that makes them willing to throw him in.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 04:13 PM
Obviously Santana is a bigger priority to the Red Sox than the crap the Sox are giving them but why are the Twins so high on Crisp? I know they have a hole in center but when you trading the best pitcher in baseball CoCo Crisp should not be a top priority.

They aren't. The Twins want Elsbury. Which means the Saux would need Crisp.

My guess is that deal doesn't happen, and Santana ends up a Yankee, with Melky Cabrera in CF for the Twins. Since the Saux aren't sending Crisp to the Yankees, it looks like the only teams that would be interested in Crisp at that point would be us and the Braves. And by the time all that goes down (next year, likely), Mike Cameron or Corey Patterson will likely be a Brave.

SoxNation05
12-20-2007, 04:15 PM
Let's have the Twins sign Patterson and the Yanks get Santana. I want this deal to happen. What would we do with Crede if this deal were to happen?

SoxNation05
12-20-2007, 04:16 PM
They aren't. The Twins want Elsbury. Which means the Saux would need Crisp.

My guess is that deal doesn't happen, and Santana ends up a Yankee, with Melky Cabrera in CF for the Twins. Since the Saux aren't sending Crisp to the Yankees, it looks like the only teams that would be interested in Crisp at that point would be us and the Braves. And by the time all that goes down (next year, likely), Mike Cameron or Corey Patterson will likely be a Brave.
He is close to a deal with Atlanta.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 04:17 PM
They can have anyone in our system except for DLS or Gio if Bowden is involved. I guess I just have trouble imagining the Red Sox are that desperate to shed Crisp. Makes me wonder what they know about Bowden that makes them willing to throw him in.

It really might be that they are higher on Shelby than we realize.

Bowden is really only a year away with the way he's progressed. The Red Sox really don't need another starting pitcher on the horizon in a year, they've got plenty of that. Shelby could have a high ceiling in their minds (I've heard people say as much about Shelby) and he's a little further away.

So they're getting a guy further away and dumping salary, and only losing a guy that wasn't in their plans.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 04:19 PM
Let's have the Twins sign Patterson and the Yanks get Santana. I want this deal to happen. What would we do with Crede if this deal were to happen?

Play him in spring training and then trade him for a middle relief pitcher if he isn't complete garbage.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 04:19 PM
He is close to a deal with Atlanta.

Good.

spiffie
12-20-2007, 04:21 PM
It really might be that they are higher on Shelby than we realize.

Bowden is really only a year away with the way he's progressed. The Red Sox really don't need another starting pitcher on the horizon in a year, they've got plenty of that. Shelby could have a high ceiling in their minds (I've heard people say as much about Shelby) and he's a little further away.

So they're getting a guy further away and dumping salary, and only losing a guy that wasn't in their plans.
I guess I just have trouble imagining they couldn't use a guy who projects the way Bowden does. Even if you assume a rotation of Buchholz, Lester, Matsuzaka, Beckett...who is #5? I guess if they do get Santana he would slot in there, but then it seems like they either have to use Crisp as a trade chip there or as their CF, so it doesn't fit.

SoxNation05
12-20-2007, 04:21 PM
Good.
I sure as hell don't want the Sox to end up with Cameron.

SoxNation05
12-20-2007, 04:22 PM
I guess I just have trouble imagining they couldn't use a guy who projects the way Bowden does. Even if you assume a rotation of Buchholz, Lester, Matsuzaka, Beckett...who is #5? I guess if they do get Santana he would slot in there, but then it seems like they either have to use Crisp as a trade chip there or as their CF, so it doesn't fit.
Maybe dumping Crisp's salary will help them sign Santana long term and keep him from the Yanks.

spiffie
12-20-2007, 04:23 PM
Maybe dumping Crisp's salary will help them sign Santana long term and keep him from the Yanks.
I guess its possible, but really...the team is a money machine, I can't imagine that Coco Crisp's 4.5 million a year is the obstacle to them signing Santana. Hell, just raise the cost of pink hats by $20 a cap and that'll pay for Johan's entire deal.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 04:24 PM
I guess I just have trouble imagining they couldn't use a guy who projects the way Bowden does. Even if you assume a rotation of Buchholz, Lester, Matsuzaka, Beckett...who is #5? I guess if they do get Santana he would slot in there, but then it seems like they either have to use Crisp as a trade chip there or as their CF, so it doesn't fit.

Oh, they've got more pitchers on the horizon. Masterson will probably arrive first, and be better.

SoxNation05
12-20-2007, 04:37 PM
What will the Sox do with Crede???????
You have to develope middle relievers not trade a Gold Glove third baseman for them even if his back is ready to crack any second.

munchman33
12-20-2007, 04:41 PM
What will the Sox do with Crede???????
You have to develope Middles relievers not trade a Gold Glove third baseman for them even if his back is ready to crack any second.

1. Joe Crede is not a gold glover, despite his defensive prowess.
2. Joe Crede had BACK SURGERY. Recently. Even if he was a gold glover, that wouldn't matter anymore. Because he had BACK SURGERY. That isn't something easy to recover from. He'll likely never have the same mobility.
3. Joe Crede is a free agent after this year.
4. Joe Crede has a money hungry agent.


Honestly, if the sox could get a decent middle reliever for him, I'd be completely shocked.

Tragg
12-20-2007, 04:49 PM
He's a long way away to make a statement like that. I guess yes, his ceiling is high. But he's a real big if, IMO. Perhaps Theo disagrees with me. He does get paid to do this.
That's a good flyer to take; why bother with a low ceiling guy? When we're giving away players in July, it would be nice to get a high celing guy from low A ball.
My question is why would we exchange our pitching prospects for theirs? Is it more of that "Stuff" stuff? Broadway would make sense to trade under that theory (of course it begs the question - why did we draft him 1st? He was a control, slow ball pitcher in college).

munchman33
12-20-2007, 04:52 PM
That's a good flyer to take; why bother with a low ceiling guy? When we're giving away players in July, it would be nice to get a high celing guy from low A ball.
My question is why would we exchange our pitching prospects for theirs? Is it more of that "Stuff" stuff? Broadway would make sense to trade under that theory (of course it begs the question - why did we draft him 1st? He was a control, slow ball pitcher in college).

No, it's more of a ready now versus ready later sort of thing. That and Shelby "could" be better some day, whereas Bowden "could" be a #2 type. But Bowden is very close to being mlb ready, and I don't think he'll get that chance in Boston.

Bowden has stuff and control. He needs to work on learning how to pitch to advanced hitters a little better. But the talent is there on all ends.

edit: I take that back, he's a CF prospect. I confused him with Getz. Don't know much about Shelby. Does anyone?

Tragg
12-20-2007, 04:54 PM
What will the Sox do with Crede???????
You have to develope middle relievers not trade a Gold Glove third baseman for them even if his back is ready to crack any second.Good point.
If he can't get healthy, the Sox won't get anything for him. If he's healthy, he's worth a lot more than yet another middle reliever.
Use young pitchers in the pen, not more ceiling middle relievers.

The Dude
12-20-2007, 06:17 PM
Jerry Owens > Coco Crisp.

Bull****!:rolleyes:
On the basis of what? Because salary aside, there is no comparison.
Crisp > Owens

Big Hurt #35=HOF
12-20-2007, 08:48 PM
Coco is better than Jerry Owens, Ryan Sweeney, and Brian Anderson. His contract is reasonable and below market.

If Kenny really expects to compete this year, he should make this move. I still don't think it's enough, but it brings us a lot closer to competing. We'd be filling a gaping hole with a better than average major league player.

I honestly didn't think this would still be an option. I hope it pans out.

edit: wait, we'd get Bowden too? holy crap, give them what they want!


I wanted some light at the end of the tunnel and I was really pushing for Coco and / or Pierre. But besides contracts people on this forum pointed out their poor OBP; and I do think Ownes is pretty much the same type of player as these guys. It now seems to make more sense to me to play Ownes v. getting a Pierre or Crisp

gogosox16
12-20-2007, 09:10 PM
I wanted some light at the end of the tunnel and I was really pushing for Coco and / or Pierre. But besides contracts people on this forum pointed out their poor OBP; and I do think Ownes is pretty much the same type of player as these guys. It now seems to make more sense to me to play Ownes v. getting a Pierre or Crisp
Only difference in Crisp and Owens is that Crisp has a more power potential but nothing that makes him a clear favorite out of Owens and himself. The Sox should just stay with what they got unless if the Sox can get Bowden also without giving up Gio, or DLS

SoxNation05
12-20-2007, 09:15 PM
Only difference in Crisp and Owens is that Crisp has a more power potential but nothing that makes him a clear favorite out of Owens and himself. The Sox should just stay with what they got unless if the Sox can get Bowden also without giving up Gio, or DLS
True but it least our CF will not be laughed at, I mean you have to be serious Crisp is an upgrade over Owens.

btrain929
12-20-2007, 09:17 PM
Fenway, any other follow up radio reports on this possible move over yonder?

SoxNation05
12-20-2007, 09:18 PM
Fenway, any other follow up radio reports on this possible move over yonder?
Fenway, is there a WSI type site in Boston if so what is it?

champagne030
12-20-2007, 09:33 PM
Only difference in Crisp and Owens is that Crisp has a more power potential but nothing that makes him a clear favorite out of Owens and himself. The Sox should just stay with what they got unless if the Sox can get Bowden also without giving up Gio, or DLS

Crisp, is RH and throws better lefty than Owens. That said, I'd pass on this trade unless:

We trade someone like Aarsdsma, Masset or Floyd for him.

Bowden is part of the deal, which seems very, very unlikely, and we don't give up DLS or Gio.

Fenway
12-20-2007, 09:38 PM
Fenway, any other follow up radio reports on this possible move over yonder?

All Santana and Paplebons dog tonight. Coco a complete afterthought here.

cws05champ
12-20-2007, 09:38 PM
Is anyone sure of who the Sox would be trading for Crisp and Bowden?

I have afeeling it will be something like:

Matt Thornton
John Shelby
Jack Egbert
for
Coco Crisp
Michael Bowden

StillMissOzzie
12-20-2007, 09:45 PM
Sean McAdam on WEEI this morning says the Red Sox and White Sox have a deal in place that would bring Coco to 35th St but it all depends on what happens in the next few days.

Santana to Boston is on the front burner again and reports out of St Paul indicate it may happen shortly. If Elsbury is included then Coco stays in Boston. If not he goes to the White Sox.

Boston would send Coco and one minor league pitcher to Chicago ( believed to be Michael Bowden (http://www.soxprospects.com/players/bowden-michael.htm) who is from Illinois )

Chicago would send three prospects one of which would be John Shelby who Theo is high on.

Fenway, I like the cut of your jib. Then again, I might be a tad biased here.
On the other hand, didn't you have your Red Sox into their 72 hour window with Santana like 2 weeks ago now?

Salary dump. Ellsbury is their CF now. If they don't get Santana, they have no need for Coco.

Bowden was their #1 pick in 2005. The throws low to mid 90's with good control. He throws four pitches, all of which project to the major league level. He just needs to work on pitch selection, as I've read he uses his fastball too much.

No Bowden, was one of their 3 first round picks that year. 3rd first rounder.

One of the sandwich round pick in 2005, but who's counting?

Please, please, PLEASE make this one come true!

SMO
:gulp:

Optipessimism
12-20-2007, 10:14 PM
2. Who, specifically, are you talking about? Because as far as I know, the only guys like that in our system are DLS and Gio, and neither would be going. We are getting back a high ceiling guy in this deal in Bowden.

Why is this absurd idea constantly repeated in this thread?

The only prospects we have in our system who have as much or more value than Bowden are Gio, DLS, and Fields, even though he's not a prospect anymore.

Unless Konerko, Jenks, Buehrle, Vazquez, or Dye is a part of this deal, expect at least one if not two of the players mentioned above gone.

I hate to burst your bubble but we're not getting Bowden for Broadway, or one of our minor league OF's, or anything like that. If a MLB player isn't part of this deal, then see ya DLS, see ya Gio. There is no way Boston would take anything less.

Optipessimism
12-20-2007, 10:31 PM
I have afeeling it will be something like:

Matt Thornton
John Shelby
Jack Egbert
for
Coco Crisp
Michael Bowden
You think Boston would trade a SP with ace potential (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/B/Michael-Bowden.shtml) and a MLB CF, in a market that overrates CF's, for a minor league starter with back of the rotation ceiling, a struggling lefty set-up man, and Shelby?

Shelby/Egbert + Thornton for Crisp I think would be fair in this market (even though I'd be against that deal), but you don't get Bowden without giving up something much more substantial unless the Red Sox are actively trying to make us better. I don't think that's the case.

Tragg
12-20-2007, 11:12 PM
If Ozzie's got to have a veteran, which seems to be a necessity for Ozzie, I would suggest Patterson. Yes, his obp is even worse than Crisp's, but he has more power and more ability to steal. Most of all, he doesn't cost any players. No minor league talent will be leaving for an average ballplayer.

Crips would offer such marginal, if any, improvement in the league's worst offense , and wouldn't move the Sox much closer to Cleveland and Detroit. Further, because of his poor ability at getting on base and his lack of steals he isn't the leadoff hitter the Sox need. Why send serious talent for Crisp? To what end?

102605
12-21-2007, 01:03 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if BA is one of those prospects...

PLEASE!!!!:praying::praying:

102605
12-21-2007, 01:05 AM
Why is this absurd idea constantly repeated in this thread?

The only prospects we have in our system who have as much or more value than Bowden are Gio, DLS, and Fields, even though he's not a prospect anymore.

Unless Konerko, Jenks, Buehrle, Vazquez, or Dye is a part of this deal, expect at least one if not two of the players mentioned above gone.

I hate to burst your bubble but we're not getting Bowden for Broadway, or one of our minor league OF's, or anything like that. If a MLB player isn't part of this deal, then see ya DLS, see ya Gio. There is no way Boston would take anything less.

Every timeI read one of your posts I want to say **** to you.

mjmcend
12-21-2007, 01:28 AM
Every time I read one of your posts I want to say **** to you.

Because he is right?

BadBobbyJenks
12-21-2007, 02:46 AM
Well, this is personal opinion, but I don't really care much for any of our prospects, outside of DLS or Gio. Maybe Poreda, if he can learn to throw the change. So any three other guys for Bowden is an absolute steal in my eyes. I really don't care who, because, as you've said, our system is talent light. Why not trade three guys with small chances to be decent for one guy with a decent chance to be spectacular? And the only catch is we have to pay a decent/good player $10 million at a position we have a gaping hole?

Why aren't more people jumping for joy?

I dont know how I missed this thread until today. I am jumping for joy if we dont have to give up DLS and Gio as you said. Anybody else in the farm have at it Boston.

rdivaldi
12-21-2007, 09:37 AM
Where would you rate him in regards to the other pitching talent in our system?

I think most would have him third behind DLS and Gio, but honestly a bit behind them. The more I watch and read, the more I think that this kid is currently overrated. Not to say he isn't a good talent, but this "ace" stuff is hype IMO. He looks more like a #3 or perhaps a low-end #2. Right now the Red Sox farm system is getting overvalued because of the success they had recently. Thus, guys like Bowden are being mentioned as "aces". He's still pretty young, so perhaps the experts are seeing something in his future that I can't quite make out.

DumpJerry
12-21-2007, 09:42 AM
Every timeI read one of your posts I want to say **** to you.
You're going to have to wait three days to respond to any more of his (or anyone else's posts). We don't look kindly on personal attacks. If you disagree with a post, then state your disagreement with facts, not attacks.

Fenway
12-21-2007, 09:45 AM
The only thing coming out of Boston right now is the Red Sox don't want the Santana saga to drag on any longer.

Big news in St Paul?????? BIG TRADE :tongue:

The St. Paul Saints traded reliever Jon Huizinga to Brockton (Can-Am League) for reliever Michael Bille, and signed outfielder Andre Marshall, who played last season for Southern Illinois (Frontier League). Bille pitched the past two seasons for Evansville (Frontier) and was sent to Brockton in an offseason trade.

http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_7774971?nclick_check=1

Foulke You
12-21-2007, 11:34 AM
If Ozzie's got to have a veteran, which seems to be a necessity for Ozzie, I would suggest Patterson. Yes, his obp is even worse than Crisp's, but he has more power and more ability to steal. Most of all, he doesn't cost any players. No minor league talent will be leaving for an average ballplayer.

Crips would offer such marginal, if any, improvement in the league's worst offense , and wouldn't move the Sox much closer to Cleveland and Detroit. Further, because of his poor ability at getting on base and his lack of steals he isn't the leadoff hitter the Sox need. Why send serious talent for Crisp? To what end?
Patterson will likely cost the same, if not more than Crisp as far as contracts go in this market. Also, if Crisp puts up #s similar to '04 and '05, it WILL be a huge improvement over Owens and at $5 million, will be a steal. I realize there is no guarantee that he'll do that but there is definitely a chance that he can revert to that form. Boston isn't always the best place for players to shine because of the intense media pressure. At worst, Crisp will give you defense better than Owens, provide similar batting avg. and more power. This still makes the Sox a better club for '08.

munchman33
12-21-2007, 11:47 AM
I think most would have him third behind DLS and Gio, but honestly a bit behind them. The more I watch and read, the more I think that this kid is currently overrated. Not to say he isn't a good talent, but this "ace" stuff is hype IMO. He looks more like a #3 or perhaps a low-end #2. Right now the Red Sox farm system is getting overvalued because of the success they had recently. Thus, guys like Bowden are being mentioned as "aces". He's still pretty young, so perhaps the experts are seeing something in his future that I can't quite make out.

I think the hype comes from throwing two different fastballs and three other pitches that all project at the major league level (at least from what I've read). Not sure if any become "plus" pitches though, so perhaps that's why they're willing to give him up for a package built around a High A CF.

munchman33
12-21-2007, 11:49 AM
Why is this absurd idea constantly repeated in this thread?

The only prospects we have in our system who have as much or more value than Bowden are Gio, DLS, and Fields, even though he's not a prospect anymore.

Unless Konerko, Jenks, Buehrle, Vazquez, or Dye is a part of this deal, expect at least one if not two of the players mentioned above gone.

I hate to burst your bubble but we're not getting Bowden for Broadway, or one of our minor league OF's, or anything like that. If a MLB player isn't part of this deal, then see ya DLS, see ya Gio. There is no way Boston would take anything less.

The original report said the deal was centered around Chris Shelby. If someone more talented was in the deal on our end, you'd think that they would be mentioned as the centerpiece.

cards press box
12-21-2007, 01:41 PM
The only thing coming out of Boston right now is the Red Sox don't want the Santana saga to drag on any longer.

Big news in St Paul?????? BIG TRADE :tongue:



http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_7774971?nclick_check=1


If that is so, are sources saying that the Red Sox will start pursuing other options, such as the rumored Crisp deal to the White Sox?

Fenway
12-21-2007, 01:51 PM
If that is so, are sources saying that the Red Sox will start pursuing other options, such as the rumored Crisp deal to the White Sox?

pretty much.....Theo goes on vacation as of Monday for 2-3 weeks (wants to bond with his new son )