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View Full Version : BILL MADDEN: Roger buy a ticket to get into Cooperstown


Fenway
12-14-2007, 08:13 AM
Bill Madden of the Daily News who is one of the most respected baseball writers by his peers makes it clear that Roger is no longer a slam dunk for Cooperstown.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/12/14/2007-12-14_roger_clemens_bid_for_cooperstown_likely-2.html

Today, I feel a little like that kid standing outside the Chicago courthouse in 1920 imploring Shoeless Joe Jackson to say it ain't so.
Even though reports of the Chicago White Sox fixing the 1919 World Series had been rampant for months, nobody wanted to believe Shoeless Joe, one of the half-dozen greatest players of the time, was guilty of being part of the conspiracy

The problem I have with wanting to believe Clemens and not McNamee is that the trainer's accusations are far too detailed as to have been made up. And why would he make them up? So while fair or not, every player named in the report is tainted for life. Clemens' stain is far worse because it very possibly will cost him the Hall of Fame. I can't speak for the rest of my voting Baseball Writers' brethren as to whether they will invoke the "character/sportsmanship" clause when it comes to passing Hall of Fame judgment on the known steroids cheats. I have been on record as saying I won't vote for any of them, and if I'm to be consistent in that stance, that now has to include Clemens.

fquaye149
12-14-2007, 08:27 AM
This only confirms what most people have suspected for years.

I really feel no different about Clemens than i did on Wednesday...this, I guess, just gives me a more airtight argument why he is a cheating bastard

chaerulez
12-14-2007, 08:34 AM
Canseco needs to tell us what he knows about A-Rod.

I don't think he's lying about it, but it's obvious he's going to hold that info for his next book.

the1tab
12-14-2007, 08:56 AM
Canseco needs to tell us what he knows about A-Rod.

I don't think he's lying about it, but it's obvious he's going to hold that info for his next book.

Canseco needs to shut up and stop trying to make himself the story. He can go back to the Surreal Life and wear all the lipstick he wants... his career ended and so did me caring that he exists.

Alex Rodriguez is going to be a New York Yankee for the next 10 years. We've already found out that he has no relationship with Derek Jeter, but does w/ strippers in Toronto. If he has done steroids, or is still on the juice, the NY media will do its job and drag him thru the mud so hard he won't walk right. I hate NY and think yesterday was one of the most thrilling "They got what they deserved" moments in Yankee history, but I also appreciate that a marketplace where there are a dozen papers competing for a daily scoop brings out some hard working journalists with a lot to prove. If ARod's dirty, he won't be able to hide it.

Oblong
12-14-2007, 09:23 AM
Writers and reporters with attitudes like Madden's are, to be blunt, chicken ****. It's easy to have standards when it's others who do the hard work and expose them. If the writers were so principled then they wouldn't have had to wait for George Mitchell to spend $40 million investigating this. They shouldn't have this hands off attitude for the dirt in the game. They get no credit from me for this harsh stance. Why do they need this to not vote in Clemens or McGwire? I'm to believe that guys hanging around players and in locker rooms and club houses didn't see this?

Juice16
12-14-2007, 09:30 AM
Canseco needs to shut up and stop trying to make himself the story. He can go back to the Surreal Life and wear all the lipstick he wants... his career ended and so did me caring that he exists.



Canseco hasn't been wrong yet. I believe we will only get the truth from guys like Canseco. I don't care if he is in it for money, I'm only interested in the truth. So Jose, please don't shut up.

Fenway
12-14-2007, 09:54 AM
Oblong
Keep in mind that the media is BANNED from the trainer's room in every MLB clubhouse. A reporter for AP spotted a bottle of androstenedione in McGwire's locker which started that circus.

The whispers in Boston ( and something Duquette believed ) was that Roger started using something in mid 1996 when suddenly his fast ball came back in the second half and by September had another 20K game. Roger was very close to one of his teammates that year.

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/CansecoPawSox.jpg

Writers and reporters with attitudes like Madden's are, to be blunt, chicken ****. It's easy to have standards when it's others who do the hard work and expose them. If the writers were so principled then they wouldn't have had to wait for George Mitchell to spend $40 million investigating this. They shouldn't have this hands off attitude for the dirt in the game. They get no credit from me for this harsh stance. Why do they need this to not vote in Clemens or McGwire? I'm to believe that guys hanging around players and in locker rooms and club houses didn't see this?

Chicken Dinner
12-14-2007, 10:17 AM
I'm just glad we won't have to hear about Clemen's possibly playing again. He's done.

pmck003
12-14-2007, 10:22 AM
Writers and reporters with attitudes like Madden's are, to be blunt, chicken ****. It's easy to have standards when it's others who do the hard work and expose them. If the writers were so principled then they wouldn't have had to wait for George Mitchell to spend $40 million investigating this. They shouldn't have this hands off attitude for the dirt in the game. They get no credit from me for this harsh stance. Why do they need this to not vote in Clemens or McGwire? I'm to believe that guys hanging around players and in locker rooms and club houses didn't see this?

Wouldn't sports in general be a waste of time for the moral crusader?

Hokiesox
12-14-2007, 12:16 PM
Can we finally forget about the argument over which hat he should wear?

eriqjaffe
12-14-2007, 12:24 PM
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/ron_schueler_autograph.jpg
"I told you he was washed up!"

chaerulez
12-14-2007, 12:45 PM
Writers and reporters with attitudes like Madden's are, to be blunt, chicken ****. It's easy to have standards when it's others who do the hard work and expose them. If the writers were so principled then they wouldn't have had to wait for George Mitchell to spend $40 million investigating this. They shouldn't have this hands off attitude for the dirt in the game. They get no credit from me for this harsh stance. Why do they need this to not vote in Clemens or McGwire? I'm to believe that guys hanging around players and in locker rooms and club houses didn't see this?

So because someone else exposed Clemens, other people can't have an opinion about this? If you are saying Madden has been kissing Clemens' ass and has done a 180 on the topic, then that's different, but I don't see anything wrong with him having this thoughts on the matter.

Oblong
12-14-2007, 01:15 PM
So because someone else exposed Clemens, other people can't have an opinion about this? If you are saying Madden has been kissing Clemens' ass and has done a 180 on the topic, then that's different, but I don't see anything wrong with him having this thoughts on the matter.

He can certainly have an opinion. My point is, Madden, as a sports writer and/or journalist, should not have had to wait until now to form this opinion. I don't know how he felt about Clemens before hand but his column suggests this is a big surprise to him. He may be the biggest name but his inclusion is probably the least surprising to most people. To me it doesn't take a lot of courage or conviction to suddenly feel this way.

DoItAllJoeHall
12-14-2007, 01:36 PM
I'm to believe that guys hanging around players and in locker rooms and club houses didn't see this?

No offense, but that's a dangerous assumption. MLB and each team has rules as to who is allowed in the clubhouses and training rooms, and at what time. Why would players do this in front of writers who can expose them, during the hour or two that they are allowed in the clubhouse?

Oblong
12-14-2007, 01:52 PM
I don't think you need to see a guy sticking needles in his arse. But I"m sure they see them with their shirt off. Then you hear whispers. Then you see a lack of testing, and use in other sports. Steroids has been in sports since the 1980s. You don't need definitive proof, this isn't a court of law, it's a court of public opinion. The standards are much lower.

If Sammy Sosa were included in this report and a Chicago Tribune writer wrote a similar column, wouldn't you feel the same way about him as I do about Madden? Yet, unless I"m missing something from the past, which is entirely possible, there's been as much proof for both guys.

DumpJerry
12-14-2007, 02:17 PM
I don't think you need to see a guy sticking needles in his arse. But I"m sure they see them with their shirt off. Then you hear whispers. Then you see a lack of testing, and use in other sports. Steroids has been in sports since the 1980s. You don't need definitive proof, this isn't a court of law, it's a court of public opinion. The standards are much lower.

If Sammy Sosa were included in this report and a Chicago Tribune writer wrote a similar column, wouldn't you feel the same way about him as I do about Madden? Yet, unless I"m missing something from the past, which is entirely possible, there's been as much proof for both guys.
You know where the word "assume" comes from? If a reporter wrote that he thought Joe Blow was on 'roids because his chest is bigger and deltoids are more defined, he would have to find a new job. That is weak as tea circumstial evidence and if Joe Blow were to demonstrate convincingly that his bod got bigger though legitimate means (training and nutrician), the report has no credibility.

A reporter can ask for medical and financial records of a player to see if there are suspicious entries, but it is very unlikely that information would be tendered and since we're not talking about government bodies here, there is no Freedom of Information Act available. A reporter can snoop around and ask the other guys on the team what they know, but that would be like asking mob members who did the hit last week-no reponses.

All a reporter can do is conjecture and that would not get past his or her editor for publication because it is too weak.

Fenway
12-14-2007, 02:48 PM
Here is what bothers me about the Roger situation.

On the surface all we have is a trainer saying he shot Roger up by his request. But George Mitchell is not Marcia Clark either. I have to assume this trainer had a notebook that documents what he did and when. I have to believe Mitchell has something rock solid for him to finger one of biggest names in baseball history.

Sosa? We can all think what we want but the reality is the only thing he is guilty of so far is a corked bat. There was no bottle on andro seen in his locker and no grand jury thinking he lied about taking something.

Roger will not go quietly into the night but if he doesn't fight back then we know they have *something* on him.

Oblong
12-14-2007, 02:55 PM
You know where the word "assume" comes from? If a reporter wrote that he thought Joe Blow was on 'roids because his chest is bigger and deltoids are more defined, he would have to find a new job. That is weak as tea circumstial evidence and if Joe Blow were to demonstrate convincingly that his bod got bigger though legitimate means (training and nutrician), the report has no credibility.

A reporter can ask for medical and financial records of a player to see if there are suspicious entries, but it is very unlikely that information would be tendered and since we're not talking about government bodies here, there is no Freedom of Information Act available. A reporter can snoop around and ask the other guys on the team what they know, but that would be like asking mob members who did the hit last week-no reponses.

All a reporter can do is conjecture and that would not get past his or her editor for publication because it is too weak.

So you think the book about Bonds and BALCO is junk? So you think Sammy Sosa and Pudge Rodriguez and Mark McGwire and Luis Gonzalez are clean enough to warrant a HOF vote? McGwire's never failed a test. It's never been proven he took anything.

And since when did reporters and columnists suddenly start requring "proof" like this Mitchell Report to forumulate an opinion?

CLR01
12-14-2007, 02:58 PM
Canseco needs to shut up and stop trying to make himself the story. He can go back to the Surreal Life and wear all the lipstick he wants... his career ended and so did me caring that he exists.

Alex Rodriguez is going to be a New York Yankee for the next 10 years. We've already found out that he has no relationship with Derek Jeter, but does w/ strippers in Toronto. If he has done steroids, or is still on the juice, the NY media will do its job and drag him thru the mud so hard he won't walk right. I hate NY and think yesterday was one of the most thrilling "They got what they deserved" moments in Yankee history, but I also appreciate that a marketplace where there are a dozen papers competing for a daily scoop brings out some hard working journalists with a lot to prove. If ARod's dirty, he won't be able to hide it.

Right, because those crack New York reporters did a bang up job exposing Clemens, Pettitte, Knoblauch and the rest of them. .

Oblong
12-14-2007, 03:00 PM
Here is what bothers me about the Roger situation.

On the surface all we have is a trainer saying he shot Roger up by his request. But George Mitchell is not Marcia Clark either. I have to assume this trainer had a notebook that documents what he did and when. I have to believe Mitchell has something rock solid for him to finger one of biggest names in baseball history.

Sosa? We can all think what we want but the reality is the only thing he is guilty of so far is a corked bat. There was no bottle on andro seen in his locker and no grand jury thinking he lied about taking something.

Roger will not go quietly into the night but if he doesn't fight back then we know they have *something* on him.

and in this we sort of agree. The Mitchell Report is, to me, a farce. It's not inclusive. It should not have changed anybody's opinion on athletes one way or the other. The players not listed are not off the hook with me. I think a large number of players, probably most, took something dodgy. You might feel different about Clemens in particular but that's ok.

I could see Clemens challenging this and imagine the PR fallout if he can force them to admit that there's no credible evidence otehr than this person's testimony.

WhiteSox5187
12-14-2007, 03:00 PM
So you think the book about Bonds and BALCO is junk? So you think Sammy Sosa and Pudge Rodriguez and Mark McGwire and Luis Gonzalez are clean enough to warrant a HOF vote? McGwire's never failed a test. It's never been proven he took anything.

And since when did reporters and columnists suddenly start requring "proof" like this Mitchell Report to forumulate an opinion?
Well...I think there is a difference between a HOF vote and writing a public column. You can choose not to elect a guy into the Hall because of the suspicion of steroid use and you can even write an article that says "I didn't vote for Joe Blow into the Hall because I suspect he might have used steroids." But if you were to write an article that says "Joe Blow did steroids because he got biggger and put up better power numbers," you're inviting a law suit for libel. You better have the sources to back it up before you print something like that.

Oblong
12-14-2007, 03:12 PM
Well...I think there is a difference between a HOF vote and writing a public column. You can choose not to elect a guy into the Hall because of the suspicion of steroid use and you can even write an article that says "I didn't vote for Joe Blow into the Hall because I suspect he might have used steroids." But if you were to write an article that says "Joe Blow did steroids because he got biggger and put up better power numbers," you're inviting a law suit for libel. You better have the sources to back it up before you print something like that.

That sums up my beef with Madden. I don't see how you can be convinced by this report and to not have held those suspicions before. What it amounts to is "Well since this former Senator got another guy to say he did it, then I guess he did it or there's enough there for me to not vote for him." That's a very weak foundation to build on. Have the fortitude to say that publicly before the report. This report gives the writers/voters cover.

Fenway
12-14-2007, 03:15 PM
I could see Clemens challenging this and imagine the PR fallout if he can force them to admit that there's no credible evidence otehr than this person's testimony.

Like I said George Mitchell is NOT stupid. I can't believe he would risk almost 2 years of work on something that he can not prove.

How do I feel about Roger?

The late Will McDonough labeled him "The Texas Con Man" 11 years ago.

I wish Willy had lived to see this.

Oblong
12-14-2007, 03:25 PM
Like I said George Mitchell is NOT stupid. I can't believe he would risk almost 2 years of work on something that he can not prove.


That makes sense. But if it fell apart would it fall on him or on MLB? He could just say "Look, this is the report. There's the evidence. Make of it what you will. Ther's enough there to show that it's a problem. I said not to punish anyone individually."

SBSoxFan
12-14-2007, 03:28 PM
I don't think you need to see a guy sticking needles in his arse. But I"m sure they see them with their shirt off.

Not to mention their pants!

DumpJerry
12-14-2007, 03:32 PM
So you think the book about Bonds and BALCO is junk? So you think Sammy Sosa and Pudge Rodriguez and Mark McGwire and Luis Gonzalez are clean enough to warrant a HOF vote? McGwire's never failed a test. It's never been proven he took anything.

And since when did reporters and columnists suddenly start requring "proof" like this Mitchell Report to forumulate an opinion?
I never said any of the things you say I did in your first paragraph above.

I have been a source of information to reporters in the past. Even though they know me and trust me, they will not print what I say without independent corroboration. Reporters who don't do that (get corroboration) don't remain employed very long.

BadBobbyJenks
12-14-2007, 03:39 PM
In my mind Clemens is still a sure fire hall of famer. He was 100 games over .500 and had 3 cy youngs in 1997, before the steroid allegations. Hall of famer yes, Best pitcher of the modern era No.

Oblong
12-14-2007, 03:40 PM
I never said any of the things you say I did in your first paragraph above.

I have been a source of information to reporters in the past. Even though they know me and trust me, they will not print what I say without independent corroboration. Reporters who don't do that (get corroboration) don't remain employed very long.

well then how did those reporters get the sources to write their book? You said:

A reporter can ask for medical and financial records of a player to see if there are suspicious entries, but it is very unlikely that information would be tendered and since we're not talking about government bodies here, there is no Freedom of Information Act available. A reporter can snoop around and ask the other guys on the team what they know, but that would be like asking mob members who did the hit last week-no reponses.


Which makes it sound like it's impossible to do their job. I didn't say that they base their opinion on what they see in the locker room. A reporter should be just a wee bit inquisitive though. That's the nature of the job. They see the guys getting bigger, they hear the whispers, so they do their job. Find out what's going on. Or they can just sit back and enjoy the ride and let others do the dirty work, then catch the morality train.

If you had a HOF vote, would you vote for Sammy Sosa? That question should be answered the same way regardless of whether his name appeared in this report or not.

Fenway
12-14-2007, 03:41 PM
That makes sense. But if it fell apart would it fall on him or on MLB? He could just say "Look, this is the report. There's the evidence. Make of it what you will. Ther's enough there to show that it's a problem. I said not to punish anyone individually."

I dunno. I do know this is not playing well in New York. Close to 25% of the NYY dynasty team members were named.

Mitchell Report rocks Yankees (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/12/14/2007-12-14_mitchell_report_rocks_yankees-3.html)

The Yankees' most recent championship teams were fueled by steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs, according to the report released by former Sen. George Mitchell.

http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2007/12/14/gal_front_12_14.jpg

WhiteSox5187
12-14-2007, 03:42 PM
That sums up my beef with Madden. I don't see how you can be convinced by this report and to not have held those suspicions before. What it amounts to is "Well since this former Senator got another guy to say he did it, then I guess he did it or there's enough there for me to not vote for him." That's a very weak foundation to build on. Have the fortitude to say that publicly before the report. This report gives the writers/voters cover.
Well, there's a difference between a reporter and a columnist...the way that I understand it a reporter is the guy who does the hard work, he asks the questions, does the interviews, etc. while a columnist occasionally will do that, (he certainly has to do research) it's not as labor intensive as a reporter is, I think...and I think Madden is a columnist. So he doesn't do the snooping that reporters do. So when someone else comes out with a certain degree of evidence, he can comment on that, but I don't think they go looking for tehir own evidence...I don't think that makes any sense and I'm not so sure I'm right.

Fenway
12-14-2007, 05:09 PM
Bill Simmons is very happy about this

Is Dan Duquette going to wear a T-shirt around Boston that says "I TOLD YOU SO!" from here on in?
-- Jeff, Chicago
A: You mean, to replace his current T-Shirt that reads, "I BUILT MUCH OF THE 2004 CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS LOUSY T-SHIRT?" Duquette getting off the hook for the "twilight of his career" comment wasn't even one of the five most fascinating outcomes of Clemens headlining the Mitchell report. In no particular order...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/071214

Simmons in 2001 tried to tell everyone the truth about Roger
http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?id=1206543 (http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?id=1206543)

Fenway
12-15-2007, 06:45 AM
curious :rolleyes:

A television piece that included Roger Clemens advising members of the St.John's baseball team to steer clear of performance-enhancing drugs was never seen because one of his agents asked that it not be aired, the Daily News has learned.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/12/15/2007-12-15_roger_clemens_speech_to_st_johns_basebal-1.html

Fenway
12-15-2007, 12:20 PM
from Toronto

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/285908



If he is, as he maintains through his lawyer, completely innocent – and isn't everyone when accused of using performance-enhancing drugs? – then why doesn't Clemens fire up the legal engines and start swinging?

Then again, that would involve things like subpoenaed records and testifying under oath and look how well that seems to have worked for Barry Bonds.


I saw Roger at his greedy worst in 1996.

After what would be his last game as a Red Sox he surfaced an hour later at the Twins souvenir shop across the street from Fenway. He was signing a lithograph for $150 and the faithful lined up for a block

Handling the cash and the credit card machine was his wife Debbie.

Debbie still has her website selling whatever and it appears not all goes to charity.
The mission of www.debbieclemens.com (http://www.debbieclemens.com/) is to provide a source of empowerment to mothers everywhere, using a common sense and balanced lifestyle approach. The “Laws of Life,” as I call them are to plan ahead, be practical, use common sense, eat healthy, be dedicated to your workout, and recognize life's necessities that serve you well. Above all, have fun while you're doing it.

Part of the proceeds from your purchase will be donated to The Roger Clemens Foundation for Children’s Charities.

debbieclemens.com (http://207.97.200.184/index.asp)

Roger is the posterboy for greed..but he always found someone to write the check....

Is he guilty????

If he does not sue then we know the answer.