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View Full Version : I'm very proud of Frank, Konerko, Thome and the rest of the Sox


Rockabilly
12-13-2007, 04:12 PM
For playing the game the right way...

Frank will always be the best player who ever wore a Sox uniform

southwstchi4life
12-13-2007, 04:14 PM
For playing the game the right way...

Frank will always be the best player who ever wore a Sox uniform

I completely agree with you on Big Frank

getonbckthr
12-13-2007, 04:15 PM
Not saying any of those guys did or didnt but if you think that list was everyone your crazy. I'm saying this was simply the tip of the iceberg.

Rockabilly
12-13-2007, 04:17 PM
Not saying any of those guys did or didnt but if you think that list was everyone your crazy. I'm saying this was simply the tip of the iceberg.

until proven wrong I will have high regards for any player who played the game the right way

MetroPD
12-13-2007, 04:17 PM
Not saying any of those guys did or didnt but if you think that list was everyone your crazy. I'm saying this was simply the tip of the iceberg.
+1. I'm under the impression that HGH and anabolic steroids were rampant throughout. With that being said, I don't think Big Frank was on the juice though.

champagne030
12-13-2007, 04:21 PM
For playing the game the right way...
:thumbsup:

Frank will always be the best player who ever wore a Sox uniform

I hope you're wrong. I'd love to have a player wear the Sox uniform that will better than Frank.....that would be one hell of a player. :D:

JRIG
12-13-2007, 04:22 PM
Not saying any of those guys did or didnt but if you think that list was everyone your crazy. I'm saying this was simply the tip of the iceberg.

Not to be a steroid dark cloud, but I agree. Sosa was not on this list. Ivan Rodriguez was not on the list. To think this is a complete roster of all the suspects is silly.

Frank stepped up and talked. He's always been outspoken for steroid testing and was the only active player to voluntarily talk to Mitchell. I think it's safe to say he's clean.

Everyone else...there's no proof and hope for the best. That's an unfortunate side of this whole episode. Innocent until proven guilty is a much tougher axiom to apply because we've seen it's not just sluggers. It's pitchers, starters and relievers. It's small guys like Parque. It's fringe guys who never even made it for a cup of coffee. There's no true "type" for steroid use.

spiffie
12-13-2007, 04:27 PM
Frank Thomas is my sports hero. Honestly, at this point, he is the only person in MLB who I would truly be disappointed and surprised about hearing that he juiced. Everyone else I would say I thought there was at least a small chance. I truly believe Frank has always been clean.

Hokiesox
12-13-2007, 04:27 PM
Frank won my eternal respect today. If he's not a first ballot hall of famer, I don't know who is.

kevingrt
12-13-2007, 04:28 PM
Not saying any of those guys did or didnt but if you think that list was everyone your crazy. I'm saying this was simply the tip of the iceberg.

Totally agree. I mean Sammy wasn't in the list but Cubs fans aren't saying that about him.

sox1970
12-13-2007, 04:30 PM
I assume every player has dabbled for a period of time, even if it's a short period of time. Every player.

rowand33
12-13-2007, 04:33 PM
Not to be a steroid dark cloud, but I agree. Sosa was not on this list. Ivan Rodriguez was not on the list. To think this is a complete roster of all the suspects is silly.

Frank stepped up and talked. He's always been outspoken for steroid testing and was the only active player to voluntarily talk to Mitchell. I think it's safe to say he's clean.

Everyone else...there's no proof and hope for the best. That's an unfortunate side of this whole episode. Innocent until proven guilty is a much tougher axiom to apply because we've seen it's not just sluggers. It's pitchers, starters and relievers. It's small guys like Parque. It's fringe guys who never even made it for a cup of coffee. There's no true "type" for steroid use.

At the very least, we can be proud of them for being smart enough to not buy roids with a personal check.

santo=dorf
12-13-2007, 04:38 PM
Frank won my eternal respect today. If he's not a first ballot hall of famer, I don't know who is.
He didn't have your respect before today? :?:

laxtonto
12-13-2007, 04:43 PM
My biggest fear out of this entire thing is that this is basically the admission on 2 steriod dealers from the 90's-00's. So what happens when they catch another one? Are we going to coninue to have 20-30 guys get hammered everytime someone gets caught?

CLR01
12-13-2007, 04:45 PM
My biggest fear out of this entire thing is that this is basically the admission on 2 steriod dealers from the 90's-00's. So what happens when they catch another one? Are we going to coninue to have 20-30 guys get hammered everytime someone gets caught?

Works for me. Those poor players are such victims...

Hokiesox
12-13-2007, 05:02 PM
He didn't have your respect before today? :?:

He did, but not permanently.

WhiteSox5187
12-13-2007, 05:05 PM
As mentioned earlier, I don't think the list is complete. I'm glad that Thome, PK and Frank aren't on this list but the fact that Pudge and Sosa aren't on there makes me suspicious.

spawn
12-13-2007, 05:15 PM
Sorry, but don't count me as one of the fans proud of any player that didn't take steroids or performance enhancing drugs. Why? Because they used their God given ability to play the game at it's highest level without cheating? It's what I expect them to do. I'm not going to be proud of them for it. I'm proud of Frank for hitting 500 HR's, but I'm not going to be proud of him because he didn't cheat to accomplish that goal. I'm disappointed at the players that did cheat. They were able to perform at a level I never coulld or will be able to. They didn't need to take drugs to enhance their abilities. That's too much ego and pride IMO.

AJ Hellraiser
12-13-2007, 05:17 PM
The list is far from complete... When all is said and done, whether it is in 2 years or 20 years, I firmly believe 50-60% of baseball if not more was using something to get ahead....

Heck, we may not even know the full extent EVER...

As far as Frank goes, he might be the single player (along with I guess Schilling) who is on the complete opposite end at this point.... Baseball named the 2 of them to spearhead the committee urging children to lay off steroids, he's never even been close to being implicated except for by stupid Cubs fans...

Now, today... Mitchell goes out of his way to basically thank Frank for being the only player besides Giambi (who only did it because he was already known to use) to come forward and cooperate....

Frank should be applauded for that... and rewarded with a first ballot trip to Cooperstown

To you, Big Hurt... the best hitter I've ever seen...:gulp:

sintim
12-13-2007, 05:24 PM
Absolutely, this is vindication day for the Big Hurt, basically guarantees his induction into the Hall.

Daver
12-13-2007, 05:31 PM
Absolutely, this is vindication day for the Big Hurt, basically guarantees his induction into the Hall.

No it doesn't.

There has yet to be a player that spent a good chunk( meaning more than half ) of their playing career as a DH voted into the HOF.

doublem23
12-13-2007, 05:33 PM
No it doesn't.

There has yet to be a player that spent a good chunk( meaning more than half ) of their playing career as a DH voted into the HOF.

True, but I think Paul Molitor's induction was a step in the right direction. Had he not had his career lenghthened by being a DH there is no way he would have ever made it. At this point, it's embarrassing that Frank even has to endure any second-guessing. He should be a no-brain Hall of Famer.

Daver
12-13-2007, 05:37 PM
True, but I think Paul Molitor's induction was a step in the right direction. Had he not had his career lenghthened by being a DH there is no way he would have ever made it. At this point, it's embarrassing that Frank even has to endure any second-guessing. He should be a no-brain Hall of Famer.

We both know that, convince the group of 80 year old fools that haven't watched a game in ten years that, because they have a vote and you and I don't.

BadBobbyJenks
12-13-2007, 05:46 PM
No it doesn't.

There has yet to be a player that spent a good chunk( meaning more than half ) of their playing career as a DH voted into the HOF.


If frank never appears on a steroid list hes in.

getonbckthr
12-13-2007, 05:51 PM
We both know that, convince the group of 80 year old fools that haven't watched a game in ten years that, because they have a vote and you and I don't.
They might induct Thomas to the HoF in spite of Bonds, Sosa, Mcguire and others.

spawn
12-13-2007, 05:52 PM
If frank never appears on a steroid list hes in.
Sosa's name isn't on that list. Neither is McGwire's. Are they in as well? I think Frank is a no-brainer HOF'er, but his name not being on that list doesn't make him a shoe-in for it.

BadBobbyJenks
12-13-2007, 05:54 PM
Sosa's name isn't on that list. Neither is McGwire's. Are they in as well? I think Frank is a no-brainer HOF'er, but his name not being on that list doesn't make him a shoe-in for it.

sosa and mcgwire sealed there fate in front of congress, come on...


he is a shoe in

spawn
12-13-2007, 06:00 PM
sosa and mcgwire sealed there fate in front of congress, come on...


he is a shoe in
I'm only playing devil's advocate here. Neither McGwire nor Sosa have tested positive for 'roids, nor were their names on this list. All there is is speculation and rumors. To say Frank's name not being on the list makes him a shoe-in is to not look at this situation realistically. Those casting ballots may believe he didn't take them, but they may punish any player that played during this era because there just isn't enough evidence to prove who did or didn't use. And as Daver mentioned, Frank has spent most of his time in baseball as a DH, so that's a strike against him as well. Do I believe he deserves to be in? Hell yes. Do I think the writers will vote him in? That I'm not confident about...at least not in his first year of eligibility.

Daver
12-13-2007, 06:01 PM
I'm only playing devil's advocate here. Neither McGwire nor Sosa have tested positive for 'roids, nor were their names on this list. All there is is speculation and rumors. To say Frank's name not being on the list makes him a shoe-in is to not look at this situation objectively. Those casting ballots may beelive he didn't take them, but they may punsih any player that played during this era because there just isn't enough evidence to prove who did or didn't use. And as Daver mentioned, Frank has spent most of his time in baseball as a DH, so that's a strike against him as well. Do I believe he deserves to be in? Hell yes. Do I think the writers will vote him in? That I'm not confident about...at least not in his first year of eligibility.

Stop arguing, the guy that can't find the shift key has spoken.

Paulwny
12-13-2007, 06:02 PM
We both know that, convince the group of 80 year old fools that haven't watched a game in ten years that, because they have a vote and you and I don't.


Agree, there are still many hard liners from NL cities who won't vote for a DH.

BadBobbyJenks
12-13-2007, 06:05 PM
Stop arguing, the guy that can't find the shift key has spoken.


The word of the lord....you got to be ****ing kidding me

thomas35forever
12-13-2007, 06:08 PM
:popcorn:

SOXfnNlansing
12-13-2007, 06:49 PM
Big Frank is the best period!

FarWestChicago
12-13-2007, 07:17 PM
...you got to be ****ing kidding meHe's not. There is no reason to be proud of being unable to type.

Dolanski
12-13-2007, 07:44 PM
As mentioned earlier, I don't think the list is complete. I'm glad that Thome, PK and Frank aren't on this list but the fact that Pudge and Sosa aren't on there makes me suspicious.

I was thinking something just like that. If there was one clubhouse guy supplying these guys, why not more?

One of those magazine shows (Dateline, 20/20, etc) did a show about obtaining steroids in Mexico. It was as easy as walking into a pharmacy and asking for them. If it is that easy there, I can only imagine it would be just as easy in the Dominican Republic. And if you realized how revered and loved baseball stars are there (Uribe not withstanding), it is easy as pie for these guys.

kevin57
12-13-2007, 08:03 PM
Of course, not everyone culpable was named. Given the 'roid culture in baseball that would be like catching all the speeders on the Dan Ryan. It's stupid to minmize the importance of this report. For the first time, a formal, official report has been issued with MLB sponsorship. Don't you think that lots of players, named or otherwise, and more than a few owners aren't ******* in their pants right now?

Brian26
12-13-2007, 08:18 PM
As mentioned earlier, I don't think the list is complete.

Do you listen to the presentation by Senator Mitchell at all? Of course the list isn't complete. He said that several times.

Brian26
12-13-2007, 08:20 PM
The word of the lord....you got to be ****ing kidding me

Tool

Gosox1917
12-13-2007, 08:28 PM
This has been one of the more entertaining/refreshing threads on here. At least, with all the "we don't have an outfield" talk. Frank SHOULD be a first ballot HOF, I think. Voters are pretty stupid, though, so I won't hold my breath. And for the record, Frank is my hero and I too am proud of him for playing the game the right way.

skobabe8
12-13-2007, 08:32 PM
Anyone know why the first leaked by WNBC was different than the official list? Sosa and McGuire were on that one.

Brian26
12-13-2007, 08:36 PM
And for the record, Frank is my hero and I too am proud of him for playing the game the right way.

Frank's awesome, but he's always been naturally gifted with a huge frame. He's a monster. He never had a need for steroids.

I'm proud of the 5'10", 170 lb guys that have played major league baseball through the years without the help of the gas or HGH. Those guys are the ones you should be proud off...the Craig Grebecks and Craig Counsells of the world.

rowand33
12-13-2007, 08:40 PM
Frank's awesome, but he's always been naturally gifted with a huge frame. He's a monster. He never had a need for steroids.

I'm proud of the 5'10", 170 lb guys that have played major league baseball through the years without the help of the gas or HGH. Those guys are the ones you should be proud off...the Craig Grebecks and Craig Counsells of the world.

And don't forget Nook Logan.

Oh wait...

(The funniest person to pop up in the Mitchell Report by a long shot, IMO. Look at him)

http://washington.nationals.mlb.com/images/2007/03/30/wD3QSmmC.jpg.

Disantinon
12-13-2007, 08:56 PM
I am interested in the findings on Jason Giambi since he beat Thomas by a few votes for MVP in 2000. Look at pages 133 and 134 of the report... Jason Giambi admitted that he started using steroids in 2001... seems kinda convenient that he only admits to using after his MVP year, doesn't it? Well let's read the next page, about Jeremy Giambi... oh wait, he admits that him and his brother were using beginning in 1996... strange. Sounds to me like #35 is one of only ten 3 time MVP winners in MLB history.

mccoydp
12-13-2007, 09:21 PM
And don't forget Nook Logan.

Oh wait...

(The funniest person to pop up in the Mitchell Report by a long shot, IMO. Look at him)

http://washington.nationals.mlb.com/images/2007/03/30/wD3QSmmC.jpg.

Willie Harris would have been funnier. Bafiarocks would have had a fit.

bryPt
12-13-2007, 09:49 PM
pretty sad in this day and age when we have to be thankful for guys when they do what they are supposed to and not cheat. Sad when we have to celebrate players that went out and just played the game the right way and didn't roid up. It is sad when the default action for an athlete is to cheat and we are shocked or give a standing O when someone doesn't cheat.

AJ Hellraiser
12-13-2007, 10:28 PM
I can't believe there is still a debate over Frank's HOF status...

The moment he hit No. 500 he became a Hall of Famer...

Today, he looks even better and will continue to do so as he a) continues to play and post respectable numbers and b) more steroid news continues to trickle out (and it undoubtedly will)...

voodoochile
12-13-2007, 10:30 PM
I am interested in the findings on Jason Giambi since he beat Thomas by a few votes for MVP in 2000. Look at pages 133 and 134 of the report... Jason Giambi admitted that he started using steroids in 2001... seems kinda convenient that he only admits to using after his MVP year, doesn't it? Well let's read the next page, about Jeremy Giambi... oh wait, he admits that him and his brother were using beginning in 1996... strange. Sounds to me like #35 is one of only ten 3 time MVP winners in MLB history.

That was actually very well discussed around these parts when KW enacted the Diminished Skills Clause and re-did Frank's contract. If Frank won that MVP the DSC gets removed from his contract and he stays a Sox player until 2006 or something being well paid in the process. He's done okay since then, but that fat **** Giambi stole big cash from my boy...

whitem0nkey
12-13-2007, 10:47 PM
also props to Ryan Sandburg and his HOF speech.

ksimpson14
12-13-2007, 11:22 PM
I am proud of Frank, as multiple times I've met him, he's easily been the nicest/my favorite pro athlete to meet.

Honestly, I would still respect him even if he was on a list. He put up with a lot of crap here, the way the media treated, it was almost like he was already on some list of theirs,it was pure crap.

Like the others, this by no means our guys are clean. The big source was from NY, so they found a lot of those ties, but other than that, he didn't go further than who we knew, and this wasn't the all inclusive list

That said, I think this is huge for Frank. Again, you never know for sure, but all signs point for clean to Frank. Just have to look at the history of how the others handled this, the McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, etc who completely deny it and/or try to disappear for a while to try and tone things down. Frank has been vocal about it throughout for many years now, and let's face it, he doesn't gain a ton of friends by taking this stance or cooperating, I'm sure a ton of players are pissed at him, it's takes a lot of guts. Not to mention, especially with the cooperation, someone bitter would have ratted him out if there was any connection by now

Nellie_Fox
12-14-2007, 12:08 AM
I assume every player has dabbled for a period of time, even if it's a short period of time. Every player.And I assume that you're wrong. Very wrong.

As mentioned earlier, I don't think the list is complete. I'm glad that Thome, PK and Frank aren't on this list but the fact that Pudge and Sosa aren't on there makes me suspicious.There's only one Pudge in these here parts, and it's not the one you're referring to. Be careful tossing that nickname around like that.

also props to Ryan Sandburg and his HOF speech.It's Ryne. Ryne Sandberg.

Grzegorz
12-14-2007, 04:48 AM
also props to Ryan Sandburg and his HOF speech.

I'll always have a deep respect for Ryne Sandberg; not only for his play but for his honesty while giving his HOF speech.

Mohoney
12-14-2007, 05:50 AM
One guy that I can't help but thinking about amidst all this is Fred McGriff. Judging by his body frame, and this is purely speculative on my part, I look at him as a guy with 493 clean home runs and 448 clean doubles. I would say that he's a borderline Hall of Famer, and if guys that didn't juice get a little extra nudge of support for putting up great numbers the right way, I think he's a guy that should definitely be considered.

PeteWard
12-14-2007, 06:06 AM
until proven nI will have high regards for any player who played the game the right way

So that's what baseball been reduced to? High regards for someone for not cheating?

That should just be expected man.

davenicholson
12-14-2007, 08:02 AM
And I assume that you're wrong. Very wrong.

There's only one Pudge in these here parts, and it's not the one you're referring to. Be careful tossing that nickname around like that.


Thanks, Nellie, I am in 100% agreement with you. Rodriguez will never be "Pudge", at least not on this board. Heck, I thought that 5187 suspected Fisk of being a juicer!"

sox1970
12-14-2007, 08:21 AM
And I assume that you're wrong. Very wrong.

I assume I'm wrong too, but since we'll never know the extent of PED use in baseball, I'm going to paint a broad brush on the era of the 90's and 00's. If we knew the true percentage of players that have used illegal drugs in the last 20 years, it would be a tough pill to swallow (no pun intended).

Taliesinrk
12-14-2007, 08:51 AM
I assume I'm wrong too, but since we'll never know the extent of PED use in baseball, I'm going to paint a broad brush on the era of the 90's and 00's. If we knew the true percentage of players that have used illegal drugs in the last 20 years, it would be a tough pill to swallow (no pun intended).

GMAB.. not EVERY player has done it. The highest estimates are at ~50% (that I've heard). But I guarantee there are guys who actively refused to take them.

cards press box
12-14-2007, 09:17 AM
For playing the game the right way...

Frank will always be the best player who ever wore a Sox uniform

I have said it before and I'll say it again: the revelations in the Mitchell report re-confirm that Frank Thomas was a tower of integrity during the steroid era. When the grand jury testimony of Barry Bonds and Jason Giambi was leaked several years ago, I called the Score and told Mike Murphy that these revelations should force all of us (including the sheep-like American media) to re-evaluate Frank Thomas' place in baseball history. I told Murphy that during the gambling scandal of the 1910's, Chritsy Matheweson was the sole figure who was outspoken about the huge gambling problem in major league baseball. Frank Thomas is the Christy Mathewson of the steroids era. I am glad that Clemens, Sosa and McGwire are all finally getting their just deserts after obtaining adulation and success under false pretenses.

The Sun-Times resident blogger (who masquerades as a columnist) wrote a few days ago that "the Cubs are cool and the White Sox are losers." Really? In trying to prove to the youngsters what a hip fellow he is, Mariotti shows not only what an evil doofus he is but, more importantly, what is so pernicious about the steroids scandal. Wasn't Sammy Sosa all about trying to be cool? With Sosa and the seroids users, isn't "cool" a shorthand for putting on a mask of smug and, in this case, false superiority. What about honesty? What about integrity? What about honest competition? What about truth? Aren't those values far superior to the "cool" associated with steroid and HGH aided achievments on the baseball field? The North Siders now denounce Sosa but it wasn't that long ago that the fans in right field bowed when he came racing in his false humility sprint to his position.

I'll finish where I started -- all of these steroid allegation justshow that Mr. Lincoln was right, you can't fool all of the people all of the time. In the end, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, et al. were revealed for what they were. I hope that what I said on the Mike Murphy show comes to pass and people (other than those at WSI who already knew) recognize that Frank Thomas stands bigger than ever. I'm proud of him, too.

Rockabilly
12-14-2007, 09:32 AM
I think when the Blue Jays come into town we should give Frank a 5 min standing ovation. I wish we would never worn another team uniform...

Yes kudos does go out to Ryno for his HOF speech he was a great player to watched to bad he play on the wrong side of town

rocky biddle
12-14-2007, 10:22 AM
I have said it before and I'll say it again: the revelations in the Mitchell report re-confirm that Frank Thomas was a tower of integrity during the steroid era. When the grand jury testimony of Barry Bonds and Jason Giambi was leaked several years ago, I called the Score and told Mike Murphy that these revelations should force all of us (including the sheep-like American media) to re-evaluate Frank Thomas' place in baseball history. I told Murphy that during the gambling scandal of the 1910's, Chritsy Matheweson was the sole figure who was outspoken about the huge gambling problem in major league baseball. Frank Thomas is the Christy Mathewson of the steroids era. I am glad that Clemens, Sosa and McGwire are all finally getting their just deserts after obtaining adulation and success under false pretenses.

The Sun-Times resident blogger (who masquerades as a columnist) wrote a few days ago that "the Cubs are cool and the White Sox are losers." Really? In trying to prove to the youngsters what a hip fellow he is, name redacted shows not only what an evil doofus he is but, more importantly, what is so pernicious about the steroids scandal. Wasn't Sammy Sosa all about trying to be cool? With Sosa and the seroids users, isn't "cool" a shorthand for putting on a mask of smug and, in this case, false superiority. What about honesty? What about integrity? What about honest competition? What about truth? Aren't those values far superior to the "cool" associated with steroid and HGH aided achievments on the baseball field? The North Siders now denounce Sosa but it wasn't that long ago that the fans in right field bowed when he came racing in his false humility sprint to his position.

I'll finish where I started -- all of these steroid allegation justshow that Mr. Lincoln was right, you can't fool all of the people all of the time. In the end, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, et al. were revealed for what they were. I hope that what I said on the Mike Murphy show comes to pass and people (other than those at WSI who already knew) that Frank Thomas stands bigger than ever. I'm proud of him, too.

You seem like a pretty good writer. Why would you ever lower yourself to reading the hateful spewings of that little jerkoff at the Scum-Times? He's a joke, and everyone knows it. And his public feuds with Reinsdorf and Guillen erase any credibility he otherwise might have had when dealing with the White Sox.

If you read him and get infuriated, and then go off and rant about him; you're doing exactly what he and the Scum-Times want. He feeds off negativity and controversy. The Windsock, and all the attention whore, volume-over-insight faux-journalists of his ilk, will only go away if we collectively pretend that they already have.

cards press box
12-14-2007, 11:11 AM
Rocky, your point is well taken. I've stopped buying the Sun-Times and won't resume doing so unless and until they begin featuring columnists who are credible journalists and who are not rabble rousing demagogues. In other words, more Jack Griffins and Bill Gleasons and less "Max Mercys."

D. TODD
12-14-2007, 03:15 PM
Not saying any of those guys did or didnt but if you think that list was everyone your crazy. I'm saying this was simply the tip of the iceberg.
100% correct! We have no idea if the guys on the Sox have ever used or is using a performance enhancer. That report is a joke that surely named some who haven't and missed the vast majority of those who have "juiced" to some extent. I like those guys too, but I have no clue what they use or don't use.

BadBobbyJenks
12-14-2007, 03:27 PM
Well Jerry Crasnick agreed with me today AND he uses the shift key!

"The best thing for Frank Thomas is that his name is nowhere near the report. Couple his reputation as a "clean'' guy with his 500-plus HRs, and you have to think it's clear sailing for him on the way to the Hall of Fame."


Not to mention Thomas is the only player in major league history to have seven consecutive seasons of a .300 average, and at least 100 walks, 100 runs, 100 runs batted in, and 20 home runs (from 1991 to 1997).

But I did not use the shift key a couple of posts back so I have no argument.

voodoochile
12-14-2007, 03:32 PM
But I did not use the shift key a couple of posts back so I have no argument.

:rolleyes:

Well it seems that if you want your argument to be read/heard, perhaps you should simply practice using the shift key instead of playing the victim...

BadBobbyJenks
12-14-2007, 03:36 PM
:rolleyes:

Well it seems that if you want your argument to be read/heard, perhaps you should simply practice using the shift key instead of playing the victim...

Not playing victim, just pointing out how silly it is to attack grammar instead of having a real discussion about a baseball topic. Sorry I do not write as if I am turning in a paper or an article to a newspaper on a message board.

voodoochile
12-14-2007, 03:46 PM
Not playing victim, just pointing out how silly it is to attack grammar instead of having a real discussion about a baseball topic. Sorry I do not write as if I am turning in a paper or an article to a newspaper on a message board.

Well then don't expect everyone to read and respond to your post. If the point is to be understood and have a discussion, use the shift key and be done with it.

Or don't and accept the fact that certain posters are going to ignore you or call you on your lack of typing skills/grammar.

BadBobbyJenks
12-14-2007, 04:15 PM
Well then don't expect everyone to read and respond to your post. If the point is to be understood and have a discussion, use the shift key and be done with it.

Or don't and accept the fact that certain posters are going to ignore you or call you on your lack of typing skills/grammar.


Fair enough.

whitem0nkey
12-14-2007, 04:24 PM
It's Ryne. Ryne Sandberg.


Nice job!, no one had any idea of what i was talking about until you made your post.

Nice find man.

Frontman
12-14-2007, 07:23 PM
Frank won my eternal respect today. If he's not a first ballot hall of famer, I don't know who is.

Hell, he won my eternal respect with this. And considering the hard feelings I had?

That is truly saying something.

cheezheadsoxfan
12-14-2007, 07:29 PM
Hell, he won my eternal respect with this. And considering the hard feelings I had?

That is truly saying something.

Same here. As great a ball player as he is I always found his personality a little hard to take. Now I'm very proud he was on the Sox for so long.

spawn
12-14-2007, 07:41 PM
Well Jerry Crasnick agreed with me today AND he uses the shift key!

One writer agrees with you...congratulations. You must be so proud.

Not many people on this board doubt Frank is a first ballot HOF'er. I don't see why you think every baseball writer that has a vote will agree.

fquaye149
12-14-2007, 08:09 PM
Well then don't expect everyone to read and respond to your post. If the point is to be understood and have a discussion, use the shift key and be done with it.

Or don't and accept the fact that certain posters are going to ignore you or call you on your lack of typing skills/grammar.

Yes. Very certain posters.

EndemicSox
12-14-2007, 09:41 PM
Frank Thomas is a baseball god. Respect...:gulp:

whitem0nkey
12-14-2007, 11:32 PM
to club 35:bandance:

Nellie_Fox
12-14-2007, 11:37 PM
Yes. Very certain posters.It is really hard to read posts in all lower case letters, and the annoyance factor distracts from the message.

EndemicSox
12-15-2007, 12:34 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/15/sports/baseball/15talk.html

I don't know what to say...

BadBobbyJenks
12-15-2007, 03:51 AM
One writer agrees with you...congratulations. You must be so proud.

Not many people on this board doubt Frank is a first ballot HOF'er. I don't see why you think every baseball writer that has a vote will agree.



Yes I am so proud...No just thought it was funny the first thing I read today was about Frank being a shoe in.

Why are you arguing with me, we both think Frank is going to the hall and talking about Sosa and Mcgwire was trying to start an argument for what purpose? The fact that he has been a DH does not mean much to me since he has put numbers far and away better than any dh before him. Thomas has never been part of steroid speculation, why all of a sudden when he retires is he not going to be voted in?

Shoeless
12-20-2007, 01:40 PM
I am so proud of Frank for that he's done. He should take this chance to make a difference and educate youth about the effects of steroids.

on the other hand, I think Clemens might be better because he has hands-on experience with steroids...

pierzynski07
12-20-2007, 01:59 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/15/sports/baseball/15talk.html

I don't know what to say...
Sounds like he didn't really say anything. :(:

Lukin13
12-20-2007, 05:49 PM
I assume every player has dabbled for a period of time, even if it's a short period of time. Every player.

Bingo!

Every player used performance enhancing drugs/supplements. In my mind there is no difference between HGH and many, many other drugs that were rampant in the late 90s. It wasn't a banned substance, how can we possibly be upset with players for using it?

voodoochile
12-20-2007, 10:11 PM
Bingo!

Every player used performance enhancing drugs/supplements. In my mind there is no difference between HGH and many, many other drugs that were rampant in the late 90s. It wasn't a banned substance, how can we possibly be upset with players for using it?

Bingo?

Not only do I think those percentages are WAY out of whack just as the 10% figures are or the people who say, "not in the Mitchell report equals cleared", but I find your claim that "not against the rules equals morally acceptable" to be ridiculous.

Un****ingbelievable...

:chunks

Frontman
12-20-2007, 11:11 PM
Bingo!

Every player used performance enhancing drugs/supplements. In my mind there is no difference between HGH and many, many other drugs that were rampant in the late 90s. It wasn't a banned substance, how can we possibly be upset with players for using it?

You mean, besides illegally obtaining steroids/HGH/amphetamines/etc? That the players who used performance enhancers are criminals, right? I can see how you question anyone being upset with players for using. :rolleyes:

Because if your argument is only based on the laws of baseball, versus the laws in the US itself; I submit that Kenny Williams has a very easy way to fix the Sox:

Kidnap the best players in the positions that they need help in.

While I'm on record for saying nothing should be done to previous infractions; don't condone them by saying "Well, it wasn't against baseball's rules."

Because there is nothing in baseball's rules saying you can't kidnap the other team's starting pitcher the morning of the game.

Nellie_Fox
12-20-2007, 11:37 PM
Because there is nothing in baseball's rules saying you can't kidnap the other team's starting pitcher the morning of the game.Hell, I don't think there is an MLB rule against shooting the other team's starting pitcher the morning of the game. Not against baseball rules, ergo okay!

Frontman
12-21-2007, 06:22 AM
Hell, I don't think there is an MLB rule against shooting the other team's starting pitcher the morning of the game. Not against baseball rules, ergo okay!

I usually go to that level for an example, but it is the holiday season afterall. :D:

Billy Ashley
12-23-2007, 01:32 PM
Of course Frank Thomas should make the HoF. He pretty much is Manny Ramirez, or rather Manny Ramirez is pretty much Frank Thomas (given their ages).


While Manny will likely have had a more impressive total body of work due to the fact that he's been much more durable, Frank Thomas had a 3 year span that was as good as anyone in history not named Bonds. The guy is first ballot, inner circle HoF. For the HoF to not elect him would be close to as bad as them not allowing Jimmy Foxx to enter the HoF. Frank Thomas ranks somewhere in the top 20 hitters of all time (perhaps if you adjust for position he is somewhat lower than that, but still in the top 30ish).


This thread is annoying for two reasons:

1: The Sosa bashing.
Aside from Grimsley saying that he used amphetamines (and we don't even know what uppers he allegedly used) we have no evidence as to Sosa using PEDs. The use of uppers in baseball is likely much higher than 50%. In the 1980's clubhouses would have bowls of "greanies" on a counter for players to use, they were and likely still are that prevalent in baseball. Sosa has never had his name linked to HGH or steroids. Did he use? I suspect so, but to claim anyone knows is a load of crap. His peak years came from 28-34 and also happen to coincide with the best K/BB ratios in his career. In short, if he had hit 56 home runs in 1998 and 99 and 01, no one would look at him any different than Greg Vaughn (another guy with a massive power spike during his “prime years” of 27-34) and he’d still be considered a first ballot Hall of Famer (as he should).

2: This notion that Thome, Thomas and other White Sox are not guilty while reveling in the destruction of other players’ reputations.

If we really knew who was using or not, I’d suspect we’d see about the same amount of players using in each clubhouse. I’d guess the number is around 10 or so, but that’s just speculation. What the Mitchell Report was and why it is so important¸ is that it is a document that definitively states that baseball has a prevalent drug culture, that the owners, the players & their union and others share a great deal of responsibility in allowing this to happen. To prove his point, Mitchell named names, however he only had a handful of people cooperating with his investigation. Subsequently, the report has a lot of Yankees and a lot of Orioles (Big surprises given that Clemens personnel trainer and Larry Bigbie cooperated with the investigation). Mitchell also had access to the files regarding BALCO, hence the mentions of Giambi, Sheffield, Bonds and so on. The reason the White Sox came away mostly clean after the Mitchell report was that no one was connected with those guys. To think that your favorite team has no one actively using is insane. It is to act like a child all over again and believe that these men are really superheroes. They are not, in most cases they are shallow money craving attention W----s who have spent most of their time in the gym and can’t carry a decent conversation. What they do well is playing baseball, and given the millions at stake should they fail or thrive I’d assume there is a great incentive to do everything they can to thrive.


For the most part I agree with Mitchell. Baseball shouldn’t punish the players for what they did in the past. What needs to happen is an open and honest discussion of how many players were using. Furthermore, baseball should punish the hell out of anyone who fails a drug test in the future. I don’t think the first part will happen because most fans are too quick to want to join a lynch mob. It’s a shame because as a result we’ll never know much about this era.

EndemicSox
12-23-2007, 03:13 PM
Sounds like he didn't really say anything. :(:

You have to respect Frank Thomas for speaking to Mitchell, but I'm calling BS on what he actually told him. I guess it doesn't matter...the union probably, I hope, had him by the balls...as they have the game of baseball in the United States at this point

FarWestChicago
12-23-2007, 05:06 PM
This thread is annoying for two reasons:

1: The Sosa bashing.
:nandrolone

Right on, Brother!

BadBobbyJenks
12-23-2007, 05:22 PM
This thread is annoying for two reasons:

1: The Sosa bashing.
Aside from Grimsley saying that he used amphetamines (and we don't even know what uppers he allegedly used) we have no evidence as to Sosa using PEDs. The use of uppers in baseball is likely much higher than 50%. In the 1980's clubhouses would have bowls of "greanies" on a counter for players to use, they were and likely still are that prevalent in baseball. Sosa has never had his name linked to HGH or steroids. Did he use? I suspect so, but to claim anyone knows is a load of crap. His peak years came from 28-34 and also happen to coincide with the best K/BB ratios in his career. In short, if he had hit 56 home runs in 1998 and 99 and 01, no one would look at him any different than Greg Vaughn (another guy with a massive power spike during his “prime years” of 27-34) and he’d still be considered a first ballot Hall of Famer (as he should).

:rolleyes:
hmmmm all the evidence i need was Sosa in front of congress.
"Me no speak english."

Lukin13
12-23-2007, 05:54 PM
You mean, besides illegally obtaining steroids/HGH/amphetamines/etc? That the players who used performance enhancers are criminals, right? I can see how you question anyone being upset with players for using. :rolleyes:



Most of the amphetamines containing ephedra that were being used in the late '90s were readily available at drug stores and even Walmart. They were not on MLB's banned substance list.

Andro, which people were *shocked* to see in McGwire's locker was readily available at drug stores and even Walmart. It was not on MLB's banned substance list.

Players that were using HGH may have been obtaining them illegaly (via trainers); but they obtained this drug the same way they obtained EVERYTHING that they used.... creatine, whey protein, vitamins etc. They weren't hiding out in alleys waiting for fix; for chrisakes they were writing checks for the stuff.

I don't want to beat a dead horse but HGH and other performance enhancing drugs were absolutely the status quo in the late '90s in all sports. To point the finger at a couple guys is unfair.

FarWestChicago
12-23-2007, 10:53 PM
I don't want to beat a dead horse but HGH and other performance enhancing drugs were absolutely the status quo in the late '90s in all sports. To point the finger at a couple guys is unfair.OK, we get it. You are a huge advocate of felons. Other than those trafficking in illegal drugs, do you have any other favorites? Are you into embezzlement, arson, extortion? Please share.

voodoochile
12-23-2007, 11:06 PM
:rolleyes:
hmmmm all the evidence i need was Sosa in front of congress.
"Me no speak english."

Yes, that proves he's a liar and the corked bat proves he's a cheat. At this point in time it would be almost shocking if ShamME* could prove he didn't take PED's...

voodoochile
12-23-2007, 11:07 PM
OK, we get it. You are a huge advocate of felons. Other than those trafficking in illegal drugs, do you have any other favorites? Are you into embezzlement, arson, extortion? Please share.

Good thing 10 guys didn't line up on the Brooklyn Bridge and jump when Lukin was around...

Lukin13
12-24-2007, 09:47 AM
OK, we get it. You are a huge advocate of felons. Other than those trafficking in illegal drugs, do you have any other favorites? Are you into embezzlement, arson, extortion? Please share.

I was just responding to a member quoting me sir.

If a newer member attacked you in that matter without any teal they would get a vacation.

Non-athletes/message board nerds have a blind eye in this matter.

I am by no means saying that it is right to use a drug that is illegal to buy in the United States.

I am saying that it is complete bull crap that one pitcher is getting tied to a stake and burnt alive because:

A. He is a Yankee.
B. He is white and the ESPN wants to make absolutely positively sure they take it to Roger the same way they took it to Barry.
C. He is really, really good.

Everyone still uses performace enhancing drugs in all sports. The story here is all of these players INCLUDING BIG FRANK deny using Steroids; they mean they are not injecting anabolic steroids in their behind. They call what they take SUPPLEMENTS, and to them there is little difference between the 8 or 9 that they prolly take.

roadrunner
12-24-2007, 10:04 AM
I was just responding to a member quoting me sir.

If a newer member attacked you in that matter without any teal they would get a vacation.

Non-athletes/message board nerds have a blind eye in this matter.

I am by no means saying that it is right to use a drug that is illegal to buy in the United States.

I am saying that it is complete bull crap that one pitcher is getting tied to a stake and burnt alive because:

A. He is a Yankee.
B. He is white and the ESPN wants to make absolutely positively sure they take it to Roger the same way they took it to Barry.
C. He is really, really good.

Everyone still uses performace enhancing drugs in all sports. The story here is all of these players INCLUDING BIG FRANK deny using Steroids; they mean they are not injecting anabolic steroids in their behind. They call what they take SUPPLEMENTS, and to them there is little difference between the 8 or 9 that they prolly take.

He isn't being "burnt alive" because of A and B. If anything, he has escaped scrutiny for these reasons and is now in trouble despite A and B. Most likely neither is the case but your reasoning is backwards.

MarySwiss
12-24-2007, 10:56 AM
:popcorn:

spawn
12-24-2007, 11:18 AM
:popcorn:
I'll second that! :D:

Brian26
12-24-2007, 12:12 PM
I am saying that it is complete bull crap that one pitcher is getting tied to a stake and burnt alive because:

A. He is a Yankee.
B. He is white and the ESPN wants to make absolutely positively sure they take it to Roger the same way they took it to Barry.
C. He is really, really good.

This is worthy material for Art Bell's Coast to Coast AM. Insane.

FarWestChicago
12-24-2007, 12:16 PM
He isn't being "burnt alive" because of A and B. If anything, he has escaped scrutiny for these reasons and is now in trouble despite A and B. Most likely neither is the case but your reasoning is backwards.

This is worthy material for Art Bell's Coast to Coast AM. Insane.This is all obvious, even if Lukin13 doesn't get it.

Daver
12-24-2007, 12:19 PM
I was just responding to a member quoting me sir.

If a newer member attacked you in that matter without any teal they would get a vacation.

Non-athletes/message board nerds have a blind eye in this matter.

I am by no means saying that it is right to use a drug that is illegal to buy in the United States.

I am saying that it is complete bull crap that one pitcher is getting tied to a stake and burnt alive because:

A. He is a Yankee.
B. He is white and the ESPN wants to make absolutely positively sure they take it to Roger the same way they took it to Barry.
C. He is really, really good.

Everyone still uses performace enhancing drugs in all sports. The story here is all of these players INCLUDING BIG FRANK deny using Steroids; they mean they are not injecting anabolic steroids in their behind. They call what they take SUPPLEMENTS, and to them there is little difference between the 8 or 9 that they prolly take.

If intelligence was explosive you couldn't blow your nose.

Now THAT is an attack, just so you know for future reference.

voodoochile
12-24-2007, 02:40 PM
I was just responding to a member quoting me sir.

If a newer member attacked you in that matter without any teal they would get a vacation.

Non-athletes/message board nerds have a blind eye in this matter.

I am by no means saying that it is right to use a drug that is illegal to buy in the United States.

I am saying that it is complete bull crap that one pitcher is getting tied to a stake and burnt alive because:

A. He is a Yankee.
B. He is white and the ESPN wants to make absolutely positively sure they take it to Roger the same way they took it to Barry.
C. He is really, really good.

Everyone still uses performace enhancing drugs in all sports. The story here is all of these players INCLUDING BIG FRANK deny using Steroids; they mean they are not injecting anabolic steroids in their behind. They call what they take SUPPLEMENTS, and to them there is little difference between the 8 or 9 that they prolly take.


Bull...

****...

Keep talking out your ass, it doesn't make your case stronger...

Lukin13
12-24-2007, 02:45 PM
This is worthy material for Art Bell's Coast to Coast AM. Insane.

I am insane for believing that virtually the entire pro sports scene has used performance enhancing drugs over the past fifteen + years, and that it is unfair for a handfull of MLB players to take the blame???

C'mon now.

Brian26
12-24-2007, 02:54 PM
I am insane for believing that virtually the entire pro sports scene has used performance enhancing drugs over the past fifteen + years, and that it is unfair for a handfull of MLB players to take the blame???

C'mon now.

What a lame attempt at trying to put words in my mouth.

Go back and read the words I quoted from your post. That's what I said was insane.


I am saying that it is complete bull crap that one pitcher is getting tied to a stake and burnt alive because:

A. He is a Yankee.
B. He is white and the ESPN wants to make absolutely positively sure they take it to Roger the same way they took it to Barry.
C. He is really, really good.

voodoochile
12-24-2007, 02:55 PM
I am insane for believing that virtually the entire pro sports scene has used performance enhancing drugs over the past fifteen + years, and that it is unfair for a handfull of MLB players to take the blame???

C'mon now.

There is a huge difference between virtually and entirely. In addition, if you are going to slander the most outspoken anti-steroid athlete in sports, the only guy who actually met with Mitchell, one of the few sluggers of the last 15 years who hasn't had a major change in body size or muscle mass and Sox fan favorite and future Sox HOF member, you better have more than your opinion to back it up.

Otherwise, it's pretty much trolling.

Also, maybe you have different definition of PED. I don't consider Red Bull or other stimulants PED's in the way I consider steroids and HGH PED's. Do I think every player is using stimulants to heighten awareness, sharpen the mind, create clarity and improve focus? Absolutely. I did the same thing myself before big tests at school, pounding down a couple of jumbo coffees before going in to take the test because it improves memory recall. Do I think the players are still doing it even if not with amphetamines? Yes, but again, I don't think those things raise to the level of HGH or Steroids which are akin to corking your bat or throwing a spit ball.

So, perhaps you aren't being as clear as you mean to be. Are you referring to drugs specifically designed to improve physical condition, improve muscle mass and add strength or are you using a wider definition of PED's?

If it's the former, I think you are WAY out of line in your assessment of the percentage of players who are using.

Lukin13
12-24-2007, 03:56 PM
VC: All I said about your beloved Big Hurt was that when every player (including Frank) looks into the camera and says "I never used Steroids" they mean anabolic Arnold Schwartzenegger 'roids. I honestly believe that Frank talked to Mitchell because he knows he needs to try and seperate himself from the other power hitters of his era in order to make the hall. If you look hard at Frank's career numbers he has had a very similar rollercoaster that Clemens did. Do I think Frank belongs in the HOF??? Yep, he was the most dangerous hitter in the AL for at least five years.

I love lots of illegal stuff West; speeding on highways, leaving the occasional gas pump unattended, playing poker for $, downloading the occasional CD and writing off personal dinners as business. And, because I am getting fat I pop the occasional Hydroxycut that I am sure fails the USATF's drug policy. So, when I run the marathon in October I will be a cheater.... I better hope I don't win.

I lived w/ two of three current NFL players that I personally know used HGH in college... if I typed them here would you burn them at the stake??? You know what is also a strange coincidence??? I only know three NFL players. That means 100% of the NFL players I know used HGH and made zero secret of it.

I have got a buddy who cheats on his newlywed wife, it is despicable. He has a second cell phone that he makes sure he pays for with cash... because if he wrote a check for it he might get caught CHEATING. Players wrote checks for their performance enhancing drugs because they didn't believe they were CHEATING.

Merry Christmas,

-Not a troll

Frontman
12-24-2007, 05:46 PM
I have got a buddy who cheats on his newlywed wife, it is despicable. He has a second cell phone that he makes sure he pays for with cash... because if he wrote a check for it he might get caught CHEATING. Players wrote checks for their performance enhancing drugs because they didn't believe they were CHEATING.

Merry Christmas,

-Not a troll

See, that's the problem though Lukin. These players feel that they are above the law and above reproach for their actions. If it was legal, if it was due to doctor's care, then why precisely are they getting HGH and steroids from a dentist? What, since their wisdom teeth hadn't crowned yet, they need to grow them?!?!?!

And yes, many "performance enhancers" are readily available at GNC and other 'health food' stores. But HGH isn't sold at GNC. Anabolic steroids aren't sold at GNC. They wrote checks because they were either morons or felt they were above the law.

And just because you break a rule and don't get caught doesn't mean that its ok. Go ahead and speed. But when you either cause a wreck/get caught and slapped with a heavy fine by the court don't go playing the "Well, I've been doing it for years and everyone else does it too." When you choose to ignore a law, (and I'm talking laws of the land, not baseball law) you then accept the responsibility of your actions. Period.

And the only reason Mitchell didn't push harder for sanctions against these players is that there is what he can prove, versus proving beyond a reasonable doubt. Which would be needed in an actual court case.

Daver
12-24-2007, 05:53 PM
VC: All I said about your beloved Big Hurt was that when every player (including Frank) looks into the camera and says "I never used Steroids" they mean anabolic Arnold Schwartzenegger 'roids. I honestly believe that Frank talked to Mitchell because he knows he needs to try and seperate himself from the other power hitters of his era in order to make the hall. If you look hard at Frank's career numbers he has had a very similar rollercoaster that Clemens did. Do I think Frank belongs in the HOF??? Yep, he was the most dangerous hitter in the AL for at least five years.

I love lots of illegal stuff West; speeding on highways, leaving the occasional gas pump unattended, playing poker for $, downloading the occasional CD and writing off personal dinners as business. And, because I am getting fat I pop the occasional Hydroxycut that I am sure fails the USATF's drug policy. So, when I run the marathon in October I will be a cheater.... I better hope I don't win.

I lived w/ two of three current NFL players that I personally know used HGH in college... if I typed them here would you burn them at the stake??? You know what is also a strange coincidence??? I only know three NFL players. That means 100% of the NFL players I know used HGH and made zero secret of it.

I have got a buddy who cheats on his newlywed wife, it is despicable. He has a second cell phone that he makes sure he pays for with cash... because if he wrote a check for it he might get caught CHEATING. Players wrote checks for their performance enhancing drugs because they didn't believe they were CHEATING.

Merry Christmas,

-Not a troll

Perhaps you're not a troll.

You're an idiot of the highest order, that can not be disputed, but perhaps not a troll.

Southside35
12-27-2007, 07:10 AM
Frank Thomas will be a 1st ballot HOF'er, no question. He was the Best all around hitter of the '90s if not all-time. Only a handful of players in history have been fortunate enough to have the natural abilities to be among the league leaders in nearly every offensive category, yr after yr with the same consistency that Thomas did. He was always a .300 hitter, a lock for 20+ HR (usually closer to 35-40), 100+ R, 100+ RBI, 100+ Walks, 30-40 2B's, .421 OBP , his discipline and patience at the plate has not been equaled by anyone. He had the ability to wait for the pitch he wanted, made pitchers work, and I've seen anyone 6'5, 275 lbs looked like he could barely reach the outside corner on the plate. For a guy his size he seemed to have a strikezone like Eckstein. Won Back2Back MVP's, and was never a distraction in the clubhouse to his teammates. Never flashy but did everything with class, truly underrated in my opinion. Will always be remembered as a White Sox, and the true face of our team. Hated KW for letting him go, would like to see him get another chance to win a ring, I know he hates that he was injured in '05, cause it hurt for me to watch and you could see it in his eyes.